I've been thinking about this for awhile, since it seems like sometimes there's a disconnect on here between what people need and what others think that person needs.
On this area of Susan's, as well as in another section I saw (and I was kind of disgusted with the behavior over there), there's lots of people who truly do want to be helpful by giving advice to other members. I understand why people want to give advice and share their own personal experiences since it is helpful to some people, but that's not always what the original poster needs. Sometimes people just need to have a shoulder to cry on, or an area where they can just scream at the top of their lungs. I am sure we've all had times in our lives where we were really upset about something and just wanted to b*tch to someone about it. Sometimes giving support is just leaning back and saying "yep" and "that sucks man", because when we're in that type of mood, it's sometimes very counterproductive and unsupportive to start criticizing and trying to offer advice to the person in need.
Sometimes it may seem like someone is looking for advice, but if it becomes clear that it's not what they're looking for, it's just best to not continue to try to push it on the person. This other area of the board I saw that I mentioned above, someone posted something labeled "rant" in the ARRGGH! section of the board; usually when I see stuff over there, I just default into thinking someone just needs to scream it out and be done. Some people were trying to be very helpful by offering advice, but became extremely hostile when the OP made it clear that it wasn't what she was looking for or in need of. By continuing to try to offer advice and calling her names and giving her posts thumbs downs, it just made things worse and the thread was eventually locked. No one's needs were addressed, and everyone still felt angry.
I know we all have feelings, and sometimes it can feel like we're getting smacked in the face if we try to be helpful to others only to have them say that they don't want our help. But, we shouldn't get too emotional about it. If we're trying to help someone, we need to help them in the way that's best for them. We shouldn't take it personally or get upset, because if we actually intend on helping someone else we should know it's about them, not ourself.
I've seen some of the same behavior on this area too, and a member recently asked [paraphrased] how can we support you if you don't want our advice? To me, the answer becomes quite evident, you can try to offer some advice, but the moment it's shot down, don't get in their face about it, because that makes matters worse and it doesn't support anybody. Just say something like "I understand" or "I hope things get better for you" and move on.
My parents did foster care, so I helped out a lot with over 25 children, and spent part of a summer being a nanny to a child with behavioral problems, so this example should be understood with anyone who's ever dealt with children:
Some of the back-and-forth I've seen reminds me of when you're exhausted and frustrated and you're trying to get a kid to eat their beets. You say "here little Johnny, beets are good for you and tasty, yum", but Johnny doesn't want to eat them. You tell him he's not to get any dessert without eating them, you tell them they're healthy and will make him big and strong like Daddy. Little Johnny still doesn't want to listen. Instead of coming up with a proactive solution to the problem, you start yelling at the kid, which makes him yell back and start crying. Everyone's a looser here because you got angry over something that could've been solved in a creative way (like mixing them into mashed potatoes) and Johnny goes to bed without those nutrients and an empty stomach. In this situation, the caregiver here has acted like a child him/herself.
I know I am not perfect, and sometimes I act like a child and get upset over things that don't matter at all. But I think we all need to work together to make this place more supportive for everyone, and tailor our responses to how we know someone here needs support. If we see a situation starting to fuel, we all need to know when it's best to step back and not add to the fire.
Anyways, that's just my opinion and view on the matter.
It's an interesting post, but it's also good for people to learn how to behave. Being upset is not a free pass to lash out at Good Samaritans. Hugs, Devlyn
I'm going to expand, I don't think one person's needs ever override the needs of the thousands of members using this site. You asked what support is, and to me that is a place we can come for help and understanding. I don't think a person trying to make others miserable deserves to stay here. If the atmosphere here isn't supportive and friendly, we lose many more than the one we are trying to save. I know we have some self appointed counselors here who think awful scenes are learning moments, I couldn't agree less.
Support is love, not a show of hatred and anger.
Hugs, Devlyn
I am all for punishing those purposely looking to cause trouble and put people down. Support is a two way street on here. This was for those instances where perhaps it originally wasn't aimed at hurting anyone. In instances where someone is being hurtful, we should just report the post and try not to add more fuel.
edit to add: I am also not in a position to decide who gets banned, and neither are most users here. So, as long as someone is still a part of the community, and unless they're being hateful and bashing, they should still be entitled to some support. If there's people you really can't stand, there's the "ignore" list.
We come, we go. The site remains, and the supportive content left behind for the next wave is what matters. Haters can go hate on social media. This isn't a free speech zone. Hugs, Devlyn
Well there would be very short threads and I don't think there would be anybody reading after awhile if all the posts here go:
Here is my awful problem here...
---
---
--
And you have a page that goes "I'm sorry man"
"Gee that's rough."
etc. etc.
I for one doubt I'd read it anymore. I certainly doubt I'd contribute more than once in awhile. I think what's interesting and compelling is that you read the problems that guys might have that might be like your's but maybe not, and you read what other people have to say about it.
I mean it isn't what everybody wants or needs but I think it serves more people this way. It also is not our fault if someone doesn't get helped by what we have to offer. I mean it might make people a little ticked but I'd rather be a couple of guys be upset and help someone a real lot (which might happen). I mean the possibility of really helping someone is there. I know that people have given me useful suggestions and feedback.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on December 09, 2013, 11:20:37 PM
I mean it isn't what everybody wants or needs but I think it serves more people this way. It also is not our fault if someone doesn't get helped by what we have to offer. I mean it might make people a little ticked but I'd rather be a couple of guys be upset and help someone a real lot (which might happen). I mean the possibility of really helping someone is there. I know that people have given me useful suggestions and feedback.
I think on most threads it's perfectly cool to write down your thoughts/advice even if it might not be helpful to the original poster, and it may help people who are lurkers and not participating.
I was trying to address the problem we sometimes have where we get into the circle of (P1) "I don't want help", (P2) "take my help anyway", (P1) "I am still not interested, (P2) "how can you not want my help!" Where it's like, if you've stated advice, anyone who it'd be helpful to can already read it, but we shouldn't get upset if the person who we were originally trying to talk to doesn't like it or isn't accepting of advice that's given. At that point, instead of trying to spoon feed the person, it might be better to not get angry at the person and stop adding to a cycle that just ends up no where.
[and sorry if I am a self appointed counselor :) ]
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 09, 2013, 08:23:54 PM
Some of the back-and-forth I've seen reminds me of when you're exhausted and frustrated and you're trying to get a kid to eat their beets. You say "here little Johnny, beets are good for you and tasty, yum", but Johnny doesn't want to eat them. You tell him he's not to get any dessert without eating them, you tell them they're healthy and will make him big and strong like Daddy. Little Johnny still doesn't want to listen. Instead of coming up with a proactive solution to the problem, you start yelling at the kid, which makes him yell back and start crying. Everyone's a looser here because you got angry over something that could've been solved in a creative way (like mixing them into mashed potatoes) and Johnny goes to bed without those nutrients and an empty stomach. In this situation, the caregiver here has acted like a child him/herself.
I understand what you are saying but in this case it is this.
Johnny specifically asked for beats. And then when you give him the beats he asked for he no longer wants them and in some extreme cases makes you feel stupid for even insinuating he wanted beats in the first place. People COME HERE and ask questions of people who maybe have some more insight or are going through the same thing. The respondents aren't going to peoples homes and handing them random advice. For me personally It's not the fact that someone doesn't take my advice or shoots it down, it is the way that they do it. Saying "I've tried that and it hasn't worked for me OR Thanks for the advice but I don't think it will work for me" is a lot different then trying to make the respondent feel like they are stupid or have no grasp on the question on hand.
Quote from: thatboyfresh on December 10, 2013, 02:18:31 PM
Johnny specifically asked for beats. And then when you give him the beats he asked for he no longer wants them and in some extreme cases makes you feel stupid for even insinuating he wanted beats in the first place.
Yes.
Well if someone has reacted this way over and over, I'm going to try and react with what I think they want. I am not going try and respond in other ways. You know, no sense knocking yourself out or anything. I think this is a good point LH.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on December 10, 2013, 03:52:58 PM
Well if someone has reacted this way over and over, I'm going to try and react with what I think they want. I am not going try and respond in other ways. You know, no sense knocking yourself out or anything. I think this is a good point LH.
--Jay
Thanks Jay, that's what I was trying to say. We know after a certain point is reached what the outcome will be, there's only so much energy you can waste.
"I don't want help", (P2) "take my help anyway", (P1) "I am still not interested, (P2) "how can you not want my help!" Where it's like, if you've stated advice, anyone who it'd be helpful to can already read it, but we shouldn't get upset if the person who we were originally trying to talk to doesn't like it or isn't accepting of advice that's given. At that point, instead of trying to spoon feed the person, it might be better to not get angry at the person and stop adding to a cycle that just ends up no where.
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I think it important to regulary be reminded about the important thing in suporting each other, we are only humans, and I bet most os us arn't educated therapist, psycoritrist or mentors. ( but somethimes I feel susan should giving me a master degree in psycologic. lol)
I belive its up to the op to decide if they will take the advice or not, nobody can force an advice, its an option not a demand. But its always important how it said. if a person put someone down who tried to help then there not really gonna expect to get much help future, opposite if a person get angry for someone not to follow there advice then they should know it's not there decision to make.
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I dont think a person who dont have anything to say should say something.
it sound sweet saying. "im sorry" or "things will get better" but if you dont have a meaning in the word then they dont mean anything and if it was me it would just make me feel worse even when I knew it was made in a good spirit.
This issue is exactly why I fear this forum isn't going to be very appealing to anyone new.
When people don't ask for advice that's fine but I think there should be one thing taken as a given: people are going to give it! And to expect people not to is kinda futile. At the end of the day, 'There there' people are useless. They don't help anything. Talking about it can be therapeutic in a sense but without some kind of feedback or advice, it's just talking about the problem but without anything to help fix or deal with it. But leaning on your own experience to say "I've been in a similar situation and maybe [insert process] would help." isn't meant as anything other than support. Yes, sometimes we just want to rant, but even during a rant someone might have advice to get through whatever issue we have and it helps us get out of the funk.
For example, at work, when computers start acting up or I'm dealing with a difficult person, others will listen to my rant but then one maybe says "Have you tried asking [insert name] for help? I heard they fixed a similar issue." or "Have to tried bypassing that person and talking to [insert name]?" At that point my rant goes from just spouting off to potentially finding a solution to stop that frustration even if initially I thought I was stuck as is and just wanted to get my frustrations off my chest.
But let's say I've done both those things suggested and it's made no difference. The LAST thing I do is then turn around my frustration to lash out at that person!
I think the real issue here is because there is the discussion of personal matters and intimate problems. Seeing someone go on about the same issues without trying to do anything to help themselves can obviously frustrate people, as it would in any other situation so I can understand why people get riled up. It also irks people when others put things across in such a way that does nowt but imply others could never relate to their issues because they have it worse than anyone else and that is something that does personally irk me to the point where I'm losing interest myself. It's obviously not a competition but when you know, or are, someone who has experienced physical or psychological abuse or caused self harm as a result of trans issues, reading someone imply they have it easier can be damaging and frustrating. It also brings up, for that person, how they, or others maybe do have it worse in defending their responses. They may not express this in a post, but it's usually a go-to in their head. We may experience and respond to things in different ways but the commonality we have here is that we understand the issues we have and relate that way.
So my two cents is that attitude and understanding goes a long way. I definitely don't like the idea of anyone lashing out at someone either talking or giving advice about something as private and difficult as dysphoria or family problems, but at the same time, if I went to work every day and ranted about my computer being broken and yet refused every single piece of advice about how to fix it, I know I'd be pretty unpopular fast!
It's all a bit of give and take. I think it should just be left as common sense: in a support forum, you're going to get people offering support. If you want a 'there there' person, find a non-trans friend who can easily fit that role. They can't understand your situation so they're unlikely to be able to give any relevant advice; it'll be vague at best. But if you come to a trans site and rant, you're going to find a ton of people who've had or have similar problems who can offer advice to make it better.
People eventually do give up, but reaching that point does take time. I think with the rarity of these situations it's better to look at the big picture. The majority of people do want advice and the forum thrives off that. It's better to cater to the majority than worry too much about singular cases imo.
"At the end of the day, 'There there' people are useless. They don't help anything."
That can't possibly be meant as pig-headed as you made it sound. Right?
Sorry if I miswrote my original post, because people seem to think I am talking about never ever giving advice. Which makes no sense to me. . .
I am only addressing a very narrow situation. Some asks for help, you give advice is cool. But when they get to the point where it's obvious they're not taking it, and instead of continuing to offer advice and getting frustrated (even if the person seemed disrespectful), people just start getting angry and throwing around the 5 lettered "t" word. . . we're not helping anyone. Especially when we've gone through this cycle multiple times so it's not something new and it's expected.
I didn't expect anyone to agree with me, it was just my observation that even though you may have a reason to be upset at some people but letting your anger show through isn't helpful to anyone. That's when you should just say, okay I gave my advice, it wasn't taken, so maybe they just want a "there, there, it's okay" and move on. I kind of think there's people who everyone just loves to hate, so its kind of a bit of a thrill to see them say something we disagree with.
Anyways, sorry for bringing things up. I was just noticing this circle going around often, and it's been seeming like everyone's just been pointing the finger at one person, when I think if we want to be proactive, mature adults, sometimes we need to find a way to step back and not add to the cycle of hatred.
**shrugs** Idk, I'll go back to my own little world. :icon_bong:
QuoteIf you want a 'there there' person, find a non-trans friend who can easily fit that role. They can't understand your situation so they're unlikely to be able to give any relevant advice; it'll be vague at best.
I am not transitioning right now, maybe I should leave the FTM board? :)
It's meant as reality. If anything it can just seem condescending. Talking about a problem can be therapeutic at the time but the reality is without doing something pro-active it's just letting a problem linger. You can talk about doing something for years, but until you actually start doing it, all you're really doing is talking.
Example: You want to go to university but you don't have the grades. You can rant about having problems in school at the time and not having the grades and people can offer the 'there, there's. This can go on and on and on. But if you really want to go to university you could start saving your money, do evening and/or weekend classes to get the grades, fill out all the paperwork, get the loans, etc and then just go to university. In that case all the "yeah, it sucks!" do nothing and just let you stay in education limbo essentially, but the person saying "Have you looked at evening classes?" "Have you tried renting somewhere cheaper and saving your money for classes/uni?" is the person that starts opening up your options for actually fulfilling your goal. You can be reluctant as hell and come up with excuses but that's the point where you really discover what you actually want and at that point it goes from whether you just want to use excuses the rest of your life or you really do want it and you find a way to make it work. It goes from ranting about how you can't into discovering how you can. That requires supportive advice over there there's.
Now equate that to being in a forum about furthering education and you're going to get a lot of people with similar issues who found a way to get past it. You're going to get a lot of understanding but very few 'there there's because of where you're posting.
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 10, 2013, 08:45:50 PM
I am not transitioning right now, maybe I should leave the FTM board? :)
I didn't say anything about transitioning so that doesn't even make sense! ???
Quote from: Jack_M on December 10, 2013, 08:54:35 PM
It's meant as reality. If anything it can just seem condescending. Talking about a problem can be therapeutic at the time but the reality is without doing something pro-active it's just letting a problem linger. You can talk about doing something for years, but until you actually start doing it, all you're really doing is talking.
Example: You want to go to university but you don't have the grades. You can rant about having problems in school at the time and not having the grades and people can offer the 'there, there's. This can go on and on and on. But if you really want to go to university you could start saving your money, do evening and/or weekend classes to get the grades, fill out all the paperwork, get the loans, etc and then just go to university. In that case all the "yeah, it sucks!" do nothing and just let you stay in education limbo essentially, but the person saying "Have you looked at evening classes?" "Have you tried renting somewhere cheaper and saving your money for classes/uni?" is the person that starts opening up your options for actually fulfilling your goal. You can be reluctant as hell and come up with excuses but that's the point where you really discover what you actually want and at that point it goes from whether you just want to use excuses the rest of your life or you really do want it and you find a way to make it work. It goes from ranting about how you can't into discovering how you can. That requires supportive advice over there there's.
Now equate that to being in a forum about furthering education and you're going to get a lot of people with similar issues who found a way to get past it. You're going to get a lot of understanding but very few 'there there's because of where you're posting.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Quote from: Jack_M on December 10, 2013, 08:55:20 PM
I didn't say anything about transitioning so that doesn't even make sense! ???
Because I can't offer certain type of advice. Anyways, I was just playing with you. :)
I am done with my little spiel, so lets just smile now. ;D
LH, I always appreciate what you have to say. I could care less if someone wants to medically transition.
Jack, I agree that ranting and some kind of consoling rarely helps solve any problem, but it's what certain people seem to want...
If that's all the board ever did, I think it would be pretty useless, but mostly people want more than that.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on December 10, 2013, 10:07:24 PM
LH, I always appreciate what you have to say. I could care less if someone wants to medically transition.
Jack, I agree that ranting and some kind of consoling rarely helps solve any problem, but it's what certain people seem to want...
If that's all the board ever did, I think it would be pretty useless, but mostly people want more than that.
--Jay
Yeah definitely. Just don't want the few cases to kinda scare people out of actually giving advice in fear of backlash. That was my line of thinking. Most people DO want advice, and if they don't just leave and I guess move on.
Quote from: Jack_M on December 10, 2013, 11:06:00 PM
Yeah definitely. Just don't want the few cases to kinda scare people out of actually giving advice in fear of backlash. That was my line of thinking. Most people DO want advice, and if they don't just leave and I guess move on.
Yeah me neither. I think this is a very good thread about those cases when that's the case. To watch out for it here, I think.
I think the most useful posts for me are when people say, "I went thru this kind of thing and here's what I did." It doesn't always apply but often times it's useful to someone else.
--Jay