I do not have any intentions to offend anyone with this topic but I think it is an interesting topic to explore. I was asked this question and unable to give a good answer.
So what is the difference between feeling a disconnection with one's body and feeling unsatisfied with one's self image? It is difficult (and very looked down upon in society) for a person who feels "ugly" to improve their situation, but for trans*, options like HRT and other surgeries are more widely available. In the former case, they would just have to live with it and make peace with that.
Gender dysphoria is classified as the distress one feels in a mental condition where the physical body does not match up with one's mental perception. It is very much a mental thing, how you look at the world and perceives yourself. However, I know for a lot of people, it is a matter of life and death, so this applies for those who do not feel the distress as strongly. Would you be able to make peace with your body? This does not concern one's identity but more about one's need to transition. Are we just taking the easy way out instead of conquering societal expectations and stereotypes? Is looking in the mirror wishing you were more masculine/feminine the same as wishing you looked more handsome/pretty? Many want both, but looking at them separately, which is the fundamental difference?
I am by no means trying to undermine anyone's transition with this topic, but am genuinely interested in your opinions.
I think there is a strong difference in how you look/present and how you match how you identify. I'm happy being an ugly woman, I was not being and ugly man.
My need is for my body to match my brain identity, not to look attractive, although that would be a bonus as most woman have a desire to be attractive.
Attractiveness is dictated by both fashion and cultural mores. While gender is far more fundamental.
Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 01:24:03 AM
I think there is a strong difference in how you look/present and how you match how you identify. I'm happy being an ugly woman, I was not being and ugly man.
Agreed with the feeling.
Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 01:24:03 AM
Attractiveness is dictated by both fashion and cultural mores. While gender is far more fundamental.
More fundamental in what way? Gender is dictated by cultural aspects as well.
Also, I do not mean that one's identity is no longer valid. As in, I could still be a man, and my partner acknowledging that, but make peace with a feminine body. Similar to a person knowing she is beautiful inside, has someone who sees that, even if others do not.
Is gender dictated by cultural aspects or do you mean sexuality?
Off topic or alternate universe alert? Plus a bit of off-topic
Quote from: beaver on December 14, 2013, 01:16:05 AM
... It is difficult (and very looked down upon in society) for a person who feels "ugly" to improve their situation, but for trans*, options like HRT and other surgeries are more widely available.
Over 10 billion dollars per year gets spent on cosmetic surgery in the US. Hardly what I would call society looking down on on it. Any woman no matter what her body shape or breast size, in fact age even it seems these days, can get a BA. Try asking for one as a 40 y/o male! Look at all the hoops the Gatekeepers put some through for HRT or GRS. Hardly widely available. I doubt worldwide medical expenditures for TG people come even close proportional for the population. Forget using the same percentage of cis people wanting surgery as a percentage of population. Money talks.
As for the topic question I think it is a simple human variability. A woman in my group has a medical condition that makes it dangerous for her to be on HRT. yet "I'd rather dies as a woman then live as a man" is her response.
Overall I think Cindy summed it up perfectly. I am still an ugly guy yet am happy being in my skin as a woman. I never saw a pic of a handsome guy and thought "I wish I could look half as good". I constantly do with woman. Even non super models, or even regular models.
One additional factor, genitals. Some absolutely hate them, others no. In my case though I'd rather not have them, we still had some good times together. GRS has never been a goal for me. Only living, being seen as, and accepted as a woman. Panty checks are on the very bottom of that worry list.
For me being transsexual had nothing to do with society or with 'image' - I would have been trans even if I was blind. It was all about my body and my mind - they didn't fit together, like a round core and a square shell - and it was that way from earliest childhood. Something had to change!
Aside from that one sticking point, my self-image was always fairly good and got a whole lot better after SRS/transition - it was wonderful being tall, skinny, and pretty! ;D Even after 40 years I am still happy - I have aged well. I am no longer skinny and "pretty" has given way to "cute" but that's okay.
Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 02:02:03 AM
Is gender dictated by cultural aspects or do you mean sexuality?
I feel like gender varies from culture to culture. For example, African vs. Asian masculinity, where different standards are raised for the stereotypical man (African men are generally more muscular, etc). A person would most likely try to fit into the cultural role depending on where he is at.
Quote from: JoanneB on December 14, 2013, 06:55:47 AM
Off topic or alternate universe alert? Plus a bit of off-topic
Over 10 billion dollars per year gets spent on cosmetic surgery in the US. Hardly what I would call society looking down on on it. Any woman no matter what her body shape or breast size, in fact age even it seems these days, can get a BA. Try asking for one as a 40 y/o male! Look at all the hoops the Gatekeepers put some through for HRT or GRS. Hardly widely available. I doubt worldwide medical expenditures for TG people come even close proportional for the population. Forget using the same percentage of cis people wanting surgery as a percentage of population. Money talks.
That's a crazy number, I didn't know that. I suppose of recent years, society has been more or less encouraging it instead of frowning. Although I wonder if the money would be mostly contributed by the upper class. Would the average Jane be saving up for breast implants for years?
Quote from: JoanneB on December 14, 2013, 06:55:47 AM
One additional factor, genitals. Some absolutely hate them, others no. In my case though I'd rather not have them, we still had some good times together. GRS has never been a goal for me. Only living, being seen as, and accepted as a woman. Panty checks are on the very bottom of that worry list.
That's an excellent point. I don't think anyone has tried to cut off their limbs because they didn't
look good, while I've heard of a young transgirl who tried to cut off her penis. Perhaps therein lies the fundamental difference.
Somewhat off topic here, let your imagination run wild:
So if, in an ideal (imaginary) world, everyone is educated about gender and sex and such, where you are still regarded as a woman or man regardless of your birth sex (legal documents reflecting preferred gender, nobody bats an eye at what you wear, no hate, social interactions the same), would you still want to transition? Is there a need to better reflect your inner self when it is already accepted? Would a girl still want to cut off her penis if she saw some of the other little girls have one too, and it's ok to have one? Nobody would make fun of her and it'll be like if she were taller or shorter, just another physical trait. TG people have always existed naturally, forget the notion of sex, what if there is only gender? Would there still be a need for transitioning?
I guess what I am trying to ask is, what is the purpose of transition in modern society? Is it the mere physical disconnection or is that disconnection induced by cis-society's eyes?
Straight from the guys picking your pockets http://www.surgery.org/consumers/plastic-surgery-news-briefs/cosmetic-surgery--15-years-facts-figures-infographic-1036566 (http://www.surgery.org/consumers/plastic-surgery-news-briefs/cosmetic-surgery--15-years-facts-figures-infographic-1036566)
While Botox just celebrated the 10-year anniversary of being FDA-approved in the United States, the American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery is celebrating the big "1-5" with 15 years of Cosmetic Surgery Statistics . The changing landscape of plastic surgery is clearly reflected in the huge jump of procedures performed, money spent and the 356% increase in nonsurgical procedures. However, surgery is still king when it comes to spending, taking up over 60% of the 10 billion dollar total spent in 2011, as well as rating higher on RealSelf.com in patient satisfaction.
Quote from: beaver on December 14, 2013, 01:16:05 AMIt is very much a mental thing
The current mode of treatment indicates that GD is a physical issue. One fixes a broken arm with a cast, not with a therapist. If GD was treated as a psychological disorder, physical changes to the extent that they are carried out would not (or should not) be carried out. As the ideal treatment would mean making someones mind comfortable with the body.
It's a question of which we view to be correct, the mind or the body.
Image differs in the intent. When someone wants a change for image, the goal in mind is to look better (and by extension, feel better). My birth body isn't particularly ugly, about average I would say. Transitioning won't make me more or less beautiful (Hopefully), but it will make me feel more myself.
I think that there's a huge difference between being unsatisfied with your gender as compared to being unsatisfied with your image.
I think you hit the nail on the head without realizing it.
Quote from: beaver on December 14, 2013, 01:16:05 AM
Gender dysphoria is classified as the distress one feels in a mental condition where the physical body does not match up with one's mental perception. It is very much a mental thing, how you look at the world and perceives yourself.
Just like you pointed out, gender is mainly determined by how
you feel within your own body. (Of course there are always outside factor too but they aren't the determining factors). Attractiveness, on the other hand, might affect a person internally but it's based much more on how
others perceive you.
I also have to disagree with the notion that that it's frown upon to improve your physical appearance. As other posters have pointed out, cosmetic surgery is becoming increasingly popular.
Not striving to improve your physical appearance is actually what's frown upon. Cosmetic surgery aside, just take a look at all the dieting fads and exercise regimens that have grown in popularity in the last decade. Caring about your image and appearance is certainly not frowned upon, it's socially encouraged.
I do agree that in the past people had to live with what they had as far as gender and looks go since there were few to no options for improving appearance or for transitioning but now that medical technology has advanced there's no excuse not to improve your appearance and there are many more opportunities for people wishing to transition which is why both are becoming more and more socially acceptable. These days there's no need to stay trapped in an unattractive body just as there's no need to stay trapped in the wrong gendered body.
I think I may have underestimated the extent of cosmetic surgery, it is very interesting to hear the views on the level of acceptance on it nowadays. Perhaps I have held a more traditional view of it, because most of what I hear originates from the US of a certain class of people. Cosmetic surgeries seems to have an unpleasant undertone to it sometimes, because of gossip magazines (or gossip in general).
Quote from: Contravene on December 15, 2013, 07:19:44 PM
I also have to disagree with the notion that that it's frown upon to improve your physical appearance. As other posters have pointed out, cosmetic surgery is becoming increasingly popular. Not striving to improve your physical appearance is actually what's frown upon. Cosmetic surgery aside, just take a look at all the dieting fads and exercise regimens that have grown in popularity in the last decade. Caring about your image and appearance is certainly not frowned upon, it's socially encouraged.
Now that you've mentioned it, I can see that as a growing trend. Also from what Joanne pointed out earlier, the growing amount of money poured into the industry is not to be overlooked. I wonder that as gender barriers break down, if more people would want to appear more androgynous through cosmetic alterations who are not, today, identified as trans*.
For me, my transition has been my acceptance that I am really a female. That's the whole of it. Being female for me means accepting my femininity and projecting that femininity into the world around me. None of this implies that I have to act or behave in any particular way. As a woman, I have to decide how I am going to live the rest of my life. How I am going to let myself become another one of the girls or at my age the ladies. While I have lived most of my life wearing men's clothing, now I can hardly think of wearing anything male. I can't bring myself to use the men's restroom any more. Though I am cautious using the ladies' restroom. I usually pick out the most unused women's restroom or the family restroom.
While early in my transition, I shook in fear at dressing overly feminine. Now I can't imagine shopping for men's clothing. I have thrown out all of my male clothing except my tee shirts and sweat shirts which are really unisex and my flannel jackets for cold weather.
I have even gone on Facebook and told everyone that I would prefer to be addressed as a female. Many of my shares are more common to what what a woman would share, such as make up, dresses, nail art work, etc.
What I have not done, but someday hope to do is take female hormones and have surgery that would make me appear more effeminate. My insurance won't cover it. I have accepted that I won't always get what I want. But I hope that as being transgender is more socially acceptable someday it will be possible before I die. I still even at 67 still have a family to help support. But as I must more and more every day I accept my femininity so must everyone else in my community. Being a senior citizen I am mostly invisible anyway.
However I express myself sexually as a woman, will just be how it happens, if it happens. Most of my life I have not been a party animal. Not that I am against being a party animal, that life has just past be by. I didn't seek out the party life, and it did not seek me out. Besides I have been responsible for bringing six children into this world and trying to raise four more. I have interacted with children for most all of my life as an oldest child, Sunday school teacher, physical therapy aide, and teacher. Emotionally I don't need to be responsible for any activity that brings another one into this world. So I can take or leave sex as it happens in my life with whom ever I am sexually attracted to as a personal friend. Currently I am involved with another woman, as a friend. It started out as a sexual relationship, but over the years has just evolved into a friendship while we try and raise our children.
This is how I am dealing. Thank you for putting up with my ramblings.
This is how I am dealing with my transition. I hope this will help others in walking their path through life.
Gender is a neurophysiological thing. This has been proven. Culture and society has nothing concrete to do with it. Gender stereotypes and roles have much less scientific evidence than people think.
The same treatments that could be used to deal with image issues do not work on trans issues. There are also plenty of trans people who are attractive before transitioning. It's just that they would rather be themselves than be attractive. (Of course, there are also many people who are attractive regardless, but the point is identity is more important.)
It would be great if society could change. However, I would still want a normal, male body. Darn right I would still transition.
Quote from: Contravene on December 15, 2013, 07:19:44 PM
I think that there's a huge difference between being unsatisfied with your gender as compared to being unsatisfied with your image.
This. But I will also say that the two can certainly overlap (like in my case). I'm simply more comfortable and confident with my image being more male than female (because that does match what's in my head more). I do have dysphoria, but it's not "situation critical" (I don't have the desire for hrt/srs).
I will also say, that's I'm all for changeling society's view of what is male and what is female as well as stereotypes that go with each. But I had to build up the confidence over time to truly be myself and exist to challenge other people's notions of what gender is.
Beaver, I think you're comparing Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) with gender dysphoria.
I have to admit that I have also considered whether there is some cross-over; a thought which has probably played some part in my not transitioning (laziness is another, so I wouldn't read too much into my views). Consequently, I think that your fears of offending and causing outrage are valid.
Nonetheless, it's my belief that when I replace "BDD" with "trans*" in almost any definition of BDD, I see that there are a lot of similarities. Of course, the one big differences is that health professionals seek to cure the BDD sufferer of their obsession.
But instead of reading my uninformed ravings, this may be more useful: http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/BDD.htm
Replace gender with species. Imagine that, through science or magic, a person was in the wrong species' body.
Is there anything "wrong" with them physically? Let's say they were in a big cat's body, like a tiger or lion. They're strong, powerful, and even beautiful from a certain perspective. But the brain-body connection is fundamentally wrong. Their brain has a "map" of the body that it cannot make sense of.
Quote from: Inanna on December 27, 2013, 05:59:16 PM
Replace gender with species. Imagine that, through science or magic, a person was in the wrong species' body.
Is there anything "wrong" with them physically? Let's say they were in a big cat's body, like a tiger or lion. They're strong, powerful, and even beautiful from a certain perspective. But the brain-body connection is fundamentally wrong. Their brain has a "map" of the body that it cannot make sense of.
Yes, for me, Species Dysphoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_dysphoria) raises even more questions regarding GID.
Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 27, 2013, 07:20:43 PM
Yes, for me, Species Dysphoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_dysphoria) raises even more questions regarding GID.
Well, unless a person somehow ended up with non-human cells or non-human genes from the embryonic stage, I question how a person could genuinely have the brain of another species. Biological sex is another matter, as a human has all genes needed to produce a brain of either sex; sex chromosomes are more of a switch.
Quote from: Inanna on December 27, 2013, 07:50:04 PM
Well, unless a person somehow ended up with non-human cells or non-human genes from the embryonic stage, I question how a person could genuinely have the brain of another species. Biological sex is another matter, as a human has all genes needed to produce a brain of either sex; sex chromosomes are more of a switch.
Yes, I'm aware of the biologically-based counter arguments.
I find myself unattractive. But I've learned not to care how I look.
My issue is my man parts. I feel like its in the way. And my body hair doesn't feel like it belongs.
But I deal with it for now.
I don't care how I'd look. I just don't want these man issues...
QuoteIt is difficult (and very looked down upon in society) for a person who feels "ugly" to improve their situation, but for trans*, options like HRT and other surgeries are more widely available
Hardly, ugly people has similar option to improve the situation like make up, exercise, cosmetic surgery, etc
Quote
Would you be able to make peace with your body?
Absolutely because I never have war with my body in the first place.
Quote
Are we just taking the easy way out instead of conquering societal expectations and stereotypes?
Don't know about others but yes I am taking the easier way out, lol. Why choose harder way when there is easier option.
I don't have slight interest on societal expectations and stereotypes.
Quote
Is looking in the mirror wishing you were more masculine/feminine the same as wishing you looked more handsome/pretty?
very much yes
Oops I haven't been back in here for a while.
Quote from: JS on December 27, 2013, 05:12:27 PM
Beaver, I think you're comparing Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) with gender dysphoria.
I have to admit that I have also considered whether there is some cross-over; a thought which has probably played some part in my not transitioning (laziness is another, so I wouldn't read too much into my views). Consequently, I think that your fears of offending and causing outrage are valid.
Nonetheless, it's my belief that when I replace "BDD" with "trans*" in almost any definition of BDD, I see that there are a lot of similarities. Of course, the one big differences is that health professionals seek to cure the BDD sufferer of their obsession.
But instead of reading my uninformed ravings, this may be more useful: http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/BDD.htm
That's an enlightening link, thanks JS. The part about the different in treatments is especially helpful.
Perhaps I have been looking at both issues too objectively. The way a person feels and think from the inside have such subtle differences that are so hard to pick out. There are so many reasons why one seeks transition, it is truly great to see the views that everyone has on this topic.