I get referred to as a man more then anything else with my peers and strangers, and it's weird to me, to be honest. I don't have a problem with it and I'm elated whenever it happens, but I can't help getting that strange feeling in my gut.
I prefer to be referred to as a boy, or a young man even, because I don't feel like I've really grown into an adult male yet, even though I'm 18. It could just be me and my emotional/physical immaturity, but I suppose I just want to go through the young boy stage because I never really got to? Who knows.
What do you guys think? Do any of you guys feel more like a boy then a man sometimes?
RJ
In early transition I definitely felt a bit uncomfortable with being called a man; boy or guy were fine - they fit. I basically felt stuck because I did not go through the right puberty, until that started to happen - my biological clock felt frozen. I couldn't advance in life because I didn't want to start anything before I could start it in the correct gender - college, jobs, relationships, etc.
I'm now 6 years into social transition, 1 and a half years on T - couple of days post op - and I still wouldn't say I feel like a man :P I'm almost there but not quite, I feel on the verge of late teenager/full on grown up :D even though I'm almost 25 I am in my first year of uni with a bunch of 19/20 year olds.
Luckily, trans guys often look younger than they actually are so it allows this sort of catching up to happen
Oh I definately don't consider myself a man just yet. I'm pre-transition, but I consider myself to be a little boy and I certainly act like one. I'd like to puff my chest out and think otherwise, but nah, I'm such a little boy. I was whining earlier when I had to get my finger pricked for blood and asked for something to numb my finger with before hand lol. For me, I am the little boy that never was, and I find it hard to go from adult woman directly over to adult man because I never had that little boy experience that would leap me into manhood. I just still consider myself a little child for right now and I'm 21. I really do need to grow up though. One day I will.
I'm going the other way and a few years older than you guys (I'm 32 in a few months :'( ) but I thought I stick my 2 pence in.
It's only in the past year or so since starting to transition that I've felt I've matured into anything resembling an adult - in my case I held onto that late teens/early twenties childish boy mindset in an effort to AVOID being seen as a man. A lot of my friends did the same but grew out of it by 25/26 (which I thik seems to be the standard nowadays), but I held on as long as possible (seriously so, you should see the transformers collection thats going to fund my voice surgery!)
Of course puberty part 2 is shifting me back to that teenage phase (seriously, I swap fashion tips with my friends 13 year old daughter!), but this time with a much more sensible head on my shoulders.
Yeah I also felt like that.
when I think about it it makes good sense. for a normal teeneger entering puperty from there lets say 13 years old they would typically still being called a boy and then 5 years later being 18 they would start being called a man. If you are transitioning at the age of 18 your social puperty makes it only take months or 1-2 years before peope would call you a man, even when the changing you go through are more simular to a 13-14 year old.
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I still look like a 16-17 year old so people usunally use the term "young-man" when they speak about me so I think it fits my age better than just man.
I usually hear people call 18 year olds "boy", young man", "kid", things like that so I think it's perfectly normal to be hearing those things anyway. I've only ever heard people call an 18 year old man if they're greeting them with something like "What's up, man?"
One of things I've noticed about myself is that my concept of age is all out of whack and I wonder if it's because I'm pre-T. There are times when I feel younger than I actually am and even a little immature but then there are a lot of times where I just feel very old and jaded.
People think I'm a 12 year old boy pre T. Being called a man I imagine would be weird.
I pefer young man, I mean just because I went through the wrong puberty doesn't mean I don't have a boyhood, This is why I have bio male friends I'm still a boy they know it to and when I get around my boys we act like normal guys, I get called young man alot, I still have to grow up, When I reach 18 I see it as its time out for being immature, It's time to start acting like a man, Even though a man isn't a man until he's 21 that's the legal
Well I'm legal age for sure!!! I've wondered if it is my non-binary identity or what but I sort of keep from using the word "man" when I can. I'm not a boy or "young man" obviously, so I use "guy", "dude" (esp as in "I am a vertically challenged dude!" or something like that.
--Jay
Well, I'm nearly 35, so I've seen myself as a man for a long time now.
I've noticed that a great many trans* guys refer to themselves as "boys" and to women as "girls". I don't like the terms because it seems immature to me, but I realise that the majority of FTMs probably really are "boys" as opposed to men as the younger crowd seems more numerous amongst us.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 14, 2013, 02:17:24 PM
Well, I'm nearly 35, so I've seen myself as a man for a long time now.
I've noticed that a great many trans* guys refer to themselves as "boys" and to women as "girls". I don't like the terms because it seems immature to me, but I realise that the majority of FTMs probably really are "boys" as opposed to men as the younger crowd seems more numerous amongst us.
Well legally your not a man until 21
I'd never refer to myself as a "boy" to anyone I know because they all know I am 24...I just don't know any guy my age who would do that. But I know most of the guys I know at my age (cis) refer to themselves as "guy" a lot. I think it takes a lot for any guy, cis or trans, to really feel like a man, because the word is so loaded. I know a lot of cis girls who can't call themselves "women" at my age either because they think it sounds so old and sophisticated, to a level they haven't reached yet in their minds.
Quote from: Brandon on December 14, 2013, 02:35:57 PM
Well legally your not a man until 21
Depends where you are.
I don't particularly like referring to myself as either "boy" or "man", unless it's part of a phrase, ie we call all the people herewho are really geeky about trains, "train boys". I don't like "boy" because to me that conjures up the image of a preteen boy, but "man" makes me think of someone at least in their late twenties or thirties.
I'm definitely male, but I appear too young to be able to look at myself and say "man", but too old for my idea of a boy.
Quote from: Brandon on December 14, 2013, 02:35:57 PM
Well legally your not a man until 21
What are you using to define that? Simply that, in the US, you have to be 21 to buy alcohol? At 18, in the US, you are legally an adult (man or woman).
I'm 22 and I do get referred to as a man because of my age, but emotionally and mentally I feel I'm around 15 or 16 years old. I tend to act like a teenager as well. I see it as that's what people think my age is when they see me. Just the other day I was at work and a guy came up to me and said "How do you do this job if your still going to school?" I gave him a puzzled look and told him I don't go to school anymore. He said "Oh sorry you just look like your barely sixteen, son!" lol
honestly, i think this is the sort of thing that most people do deal with going into adulthood, cis or trans, though it can be kind of confusing when all of a sudden people are expecting you to be on one kind of cusp (girl -> woman) vs. another (boy -> man) because the expectations are so different with regards to both of them. i mean, i feel like women are called "girls" well into their 20s, but there's this expectation that it would be rude to call a guy in his 20s a boy? so i think it can be kind of strange for trans people between 18-25ish to navigate the use of these terms, when before you were dealing with one set of rules and now there's this entirely different one.
the moral of the story, really, is that people will use these words in funny, socially proscribed ways and that's kind of how it is and sometimes that's good and sometimes it sucks, but your identity is never wrong! keep doing you how you like :)
I have always felt weird about being called either 'girl' or 'woman' because I'm too old to be a girl (I'm 25) but I don't feel grown up enough to be a woman either.
I like that on the male side there is at least the choice of guy or dude which are kind of in between boy and man. Personally I call myself a guy.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on December 14, 2013, 06:59:39 PM
What are you using to define that? Simply that, in the US, you have to be 21 to buy alcohol? At 18, in the US, you are legally an adult (man or woman).
No your a legally a women at 18 your not legally a man until 21 that's the law
Quote from: Nikotinic on December 14, 2013, 08:02:49 PM
I have always felt weird about being called either 'girl' or 'woman' because I'm too old to be a girl (I'm 25) but I don't feel grown up enough to be a woman either.
I like that on the male side there is at least the choice of guy or dude which are kind of in between boy and man. Personally I call myself a guy.
this is a really good point! i have much the same conflict over girl/woman because there doesn't seem to be a word that covers the time in your 20s that guy/dude seems to fill for men, which i think leads to "girl" being used to fill the lexical gap that exists. "lady" exists, but it's weird in that it only seems to work in some circumstances and social groups. it's a frustrating void and i wish there were a better word to use.
Quote from: Brandon on December 14, 2013, 08:09:17 PM
No your a legally a women at 18 your not legally a man until 21 that's the law
Can I get a source for that?
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on December 14, 2013, 08:25:01 PM
Can I get a source for that?
You can look it up yourself I don't know how to share stuff on here, As men were not fully mature that's why were not legally men until 21 only girls because they mature quicker, It's on the internet everyone knows that, My dad is the first one who brought to my attention until I looked for myself
Age of majority is the same for men or women as discrimination by sex is illegal. different states have different ages as the link below shows. The age of majority for the US federal is 18.
http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Age_Majority_by_State
For further information on some exceptions:
http://minors.uslegal.com/age-of-majority/
Yeah I'm finding nothing. Other than in a few states the constitutional law is 21, meaning that in that state you are not technically legally an adult until 21 (in that state, any other state, you go by their constitution), but that doesn't outweigh federal law, meaning you would still be able to vote and join the military, but for something like buying tobacco, you would have to be 21.
Quote from: LordKAT on December 14, 2013, 08:50:32 PM
Age of majority is the same for men or women as discrimination by sex is illegal. different states have different ages as the link below shows. The age of majority for the US federal is 18.
http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Age_Majority_by_State
It's not th same its is true tha women mature quicker than men
AFAIK, there are different legal ages: candidacy (when you can run for office); consent (when you can have sex legally); drinking; working; smoking; voting; working; etc. Some of these in the US have tended to go to 21, but of some are 18 and even 15 or 16. Sometimes WHERE you live in the US is a factor (like driving in rural areas). There is only one age that was specific to men and that was the draft, since we don't have a draft (in the US), I don't know where you get the legal age differing for men and women. Obviously the age of consent is more of an issue for men (in most cases), but just because it is more often pushed by men than women. If it IS pushed by women, there are serious consequences.
--Jay
Nevermind.... its what ever I'm done going on about it
This is gonna sound weird but I think there is an age identity and that age, as opposed to what we're taught and what is expected from us, can be fuild and is definitely non-linear. Mentally speaking you can have any age, a fluid age (which changes depending on circumstance), many ages at once, or no age at all. It's just a label, a social construct like any other. We do have a linear developpment biologically speaking but our biological age says nothing about our intellectual, psychological, emotional, or social state; nor about our feelings, behaviour or identity in general. Just be who you are and feel how you feel. In my case I feel like I was never a kid and will never be an adult, independently of gender identity.
Quote from: Brandon on December 14, 2013, 08:53:10 PM
It's not th same its is true tha women mature quicker than men
I have a feeling your dad was talking about insurance rates. It's still legal to discriminate on the basis of gender on insurance rates and companies consider men a higher risk factor, particular up to the age of 21, but I think some might continue to charge men higher rates up until 25.
Quote from: dalebert on December 15, 2013, 07:15:00 AM
I have a feeling your dad was talking about insurance rates. It's still legal to discriminate on the basis of gender on insurance rates and companies consider men a higher risk factor, particular up to the age of 21, but I think some might continue to charge men higher rates up until 25.
No he wasn't, And if you don't know that women mature quicker than men then that's a shame, I'm around guys and girls who are 18 all the time no one can just say , I'm a man you gotta act like it, Theirs still an age
Male puberty generally begins and finishes later than female puberty, so in that sense they mature later. Emotionally, I don't put much stock in ages, being a certain age doesn't guarantee maturity for any gender.
There is no difference in legal ages for men and women, at least in the UK or anywhere else as far as I can see. Here we can't even use gender for car insurance, even though it's just a statistic like age is. I find it hard to believe that you're the only person who knows of this apparent law, and are adamant that it exists but cannot provide any source for it.
Quote from: AlexanderC on December 15, 2013, 08:18:26 AM
Male puberty generally begins and finishes later than female puberty, so in that sense they mature later. Emotionally, I don't put much stock in ages, being a certain age doesn't guarantee maturity for any gender.
There is no difference in legal ages for men and women, at least in the UK or anywhere else as far as I can see. Here we can't even use gender for car insurance, even though it's just a statistic like age is. I find it hard to believe that you're the only person who knows of this apparent law, and are adamant that it exists but cannot provide any source for it.
Yea that's because I don't know how to share anything on here I think I already stated that
Quote from: Brandon on December 15, 2013, 08:42:44 AM
Yea that's because I don't know how to share anything on here I think I already stated that
If you've got a link source, all you need to do is click the hyperlink button (the one that looks like an earth with a paper in the corner) and then paste your link in between the [ URL ] and the and the [ / url ] that it'll put there.
And yes you can do it from a phone, I'm posting this from my phone and looking at the hyperlink button right now.
Quote from: Brandon on December 15, 2013, 08:42:44 AM
Yea that's because I don't know how to share anything on here I think I already stated that
Sorry I assumed that it was something you'd have to do to reference stuff at school etc. Either do it the way that Dean said, or simply copy the URL from the address bar. Even if it doesn't automatically turn into a hyperlink people can copy and paste.
Quote from: em444 on December 14, 2013, 11:04:21 PM
This is gonna sound weird but I think there is an age identity and that age, as opposed to what we're taught and what is expected from us, can fuild and is definitely non-linear. Mentally speaking you can have any age, a fluid age (which changes depending on circumstance), many ages at once, or no age at all. It's just a label, a social construct like any other. We do have a linear developpment biologically speaking but our biological age says nothing about our intellectual, psychological, emotional, or social state; nor about our feelings, behaviour or identity in general. Just be who you are and feel how you feel. In my case I feel like I was never a kid and will never be an adult, independently of gender identity.
I think Em have a point on our age identity who do not need to match up with our current age, I think I somethimes feel younger and older than what I am, but I also belive it because of how my life have developed. in a way I have less experience than my classmates in the typical "school life and party weekends" on the other hand I have more experience with something more adulty stuff.
like with gender where it can be put in diffrent categori of biological sex, social gender, gender identity and so on I belive you can do the same with age.
theres biological age and social age for exemple.
Biologically, I think it would chock most people to realise we grown up when we we hit puberty which means biologically we can be grown up for a age of 12, Yet we sure develope future on the body and brain, The most dramatical changing do general stop around 16-18 for girls and 18-21 for boys (I do not remember the exact number and it sure diffrent from person to person) however it sure not stop complitely as we keep aging and developing the rest of our life.
Social age on the other hand is more constructed on whats expected on us for a certain age and it change all the time and depend on where we live. Age laws of drinking, age of consent and so
may be infected by the biological fact But as I see it it much more infected by the culture norm and rules.
In my country its not unusual to go out drink alcohol when you are 15 when I visit my friends in sweden I must show ID to buy something because I have to be 21.
I can't say I read everything in the thread, especially once everyone started going back and forth with Brandon ::) but I'll reply my thoughts to the OP.
I just turned 32 last month, my one year on T day will be December 18th, and honestly I feel like I've only matured into manhood this year. I ended up taking an extended leave from this site in fact because I needed to figure myself out. I found that I was really starting to get stressed out and a little depressed when I was constantly talking about trans stuff. I just needed time to be a guy...not a 'different' guy who deals with issues that a cis male doesn't face on a day to day basis. It did me a world of good.
Besides feeling emotionally stunted because of not having the correct puberty at a certain age, I think that some of us (I did this myself for awhile) tend to see ourselves differently. I found myself trying to live up to a stereotype of masculinity, then I was unhappy with that, it started to mess with my identity, I questioned if I was gender neutral...or what was going on. I was driving myself crazy for no reason at all. Once I accepted that I am a man (a man who has to live up to nobody's expectations except my own) I was a lot happier all around.
I look at it this way, grown cis men who are 20 or above tend to get irritated when they're called a boy (unless it's by an elder relative). Being called a man is a sign of respect. You're seen as an adult, your opinions are validated far more, and you're seen on the same level by other adults. Why would I want to be a boy? I have no desire to be viewed as a child.
It's true that girls mature faster than boys, but it doesn't have any effect on legal ages.
A legal age is before the eyes of the law, I don't know of any US state that allows differences like that, but there may be countries.
--Jay
Girls might mature faster than boys but legally speaking, both girls and boys are adults at 18 so I don't know where Brandon gets his ideas.
As to the original post...I still grapple with the terms boy and man but I do appreciate being called sir. I'll catch up with manly man later.
I'm sort of hovering between full-on FTM and genderqueer, and part of that is not feeling like I fit the cultural ideal of manhood. I'm 37, but "guy" sounds more appropriate to me than "man". I've talked to some of my cis male friends about it, and most of them don't feel like "men" either, despite being around my age. Some of these guys are married with teenage kids and still feel uncomfortable calling themselves men. It made me feel better to hear that they struggle with masculine ideals; not because I like that they struggle, but because it means being compared to stereotypes is unpleasant even for cis guys. I have good friends, that I can talk about this stuff with them...
Going back to the girls mature faster than boys comment. I feel like being raised as a female has matured me faster than other guys my age. Even though I am pre-T and haven't even hit my 20's, I do feel more comfortable with "man" than "boy". Also, for me personally, I've matured in the process of self-reflection through my transition, trying to figure out who I am and looking deep down. I think a man is just someone who has looked past the need of himself and surveyed the world around him.
For many, puberty definitely indicates a part of childhood and perhaps that may play a part in the self-identification of man vs boy.
Quote from: verkatzt on December 15, 2013, 10:50:37 PM
I'm sort of hovering between full-on FTM and genderqueer, and part of that is not feeling like I fit the cultural ideal of manhood. I'm 37, but "guy" sounds more appropriate to me than "man". I've talked to some of my cis male friends about it, and most of them don't feel like "men" either, despite being around my age.
I find that really interesting that cis males in their 30's would struggle with the term 'man' too. Stereotypes of masculinity have really screwed with all of our heads, hasn't it? Who are we trying to live up to? Clint Eastwood or John Wayne versions of manhood? If only the super masculine have a prayer at manhood then probably 75% of men would be out of the loop.
I wonder if this is more of a male than female issue. For example, my wife isn't feminine. She falls somewhere between tomboy and butch. She has no problem seeing herself as and calling herself a woman though. I can't recall ever hearing adult age females questioning if they were girls or women. Why does manhood seem so much less obtainable to males than womanhood does to women?
Quote from: Frank on December 15, 2013, 10:01:36 PM
Girls might mature faster than boys but legally speaking, both girls and boys are adults at 18 so I don't know where Brandon gets his ideas.
As to the original post...I still grapple with the terms boy and man but I do appreciate being called sir. I'll catch up with manly man later.
And no teen is really an adult at 18 either, And yes I still believe otherwise but that's just me, Its only because of the law but at 18 I'm still really not grown
Quote from: Simon on December 15, 2013, 11:55:49 PM
I find that really interesting that cis males in their 30's would struggle with the term 'man' too. Stereotypes of masculinity have really screwed with all of our heads, hasn't it? Who are we trying to live up to? Clint Eastwood or John Wayne versions of manhood? If only the super masculine have a prayer at manhood then probably 75% of men would be out of the loop.
I wonder if this is more of a male than female issue. For example, my wife isn't feminine. She falls somewhere between tomboy and butch. She has no problem seeing herself as and calling herself a woman though. I can't recall ever hearing adult age females questioning if they were girls or women. Why does manhood seem so much less obtainable to males than womanhood does to women?
Funny you should mention this. I think that there is a broader range of what is considered feminine and female than what is considered masculine and male. I believe this is result of the women's movement where women took on a broader range of what is acceptably female. Within the women's movement is an inherent message about males. Some men I know have taken on this broader range and even raise their boys differently, but others (perhaps most) have not. My feelings are a bit outside that. I just don't feel like a "man". But maybe it is that I am hanging on to these stereotypes, I don't know.
--Jay
Quote from: Simon on December 15, 2013, 11:55:49 PM
I find that really interesting that cis males in their 30's would struggle with the term 'man' too. Stereotypes of masculinity have really screwed with all of our heads, hasn't it? Who are we trying to live up to? Clint Eastwood or John Wayne versions of manhood? If only the super masculine have a prayer at manhood then probably 75% of men would be out of the loop.
I wonder if this is more of a male than female issue. For example, my wife isn't feminine. She falls somewhere between tomboy and butch. She has no problem seeing herself as and calling herself a woman though. I can't recall ever hearing adult age females questioning if they were girls or women. Why does manhood seem so much less obtainable to males than womanhood does to women?
I think the common perception of femininity is childbirth and even something as daft as menstruation. Femininity seems to be rooted in physical things, whereas masculinity seems to be part of how someone acts. For example, you can "lose" your masculinity as a man by acting feminine, but even if a woman has a mastectomy, or cannot give birth then people rally for her, and try to save her femininity. Obviously we know different, but the majority of the population sees it this way.
Thanks for replying and giving me some things to think about. I didn't really connect my masculinity to society consciously until that was pointed out. But anyways, I'm glad this is an interesting enough topic and that others feel the same way I do :)
I didn't identify with the word "woman" either, but I think the idea that there are some physical events that tie one to the body.
--Jay
I don't like being called a boy due to age. I like the terms guy, dude and I always like it when a polite stranger calls me sir. A couple of select friends can call me a man without it sounding weird and a couple other friends call me bro.
For me though I will call myself a boy when people start talking about how young I like and say that I look like a little boy. This all hurt until I finally learned how to laugh at myself. Now if they say it I will too, but anyone only calls me a boy in the context of a joke.
Quote from: assorted_human on December 25, 2013, 04:02:08 AM
I don't like being called a boy due to age. I like the terms guy, dude and I always like it when a polite stranger calls me sir. A couple of select friends can call me a man without it sounding weird and a couple other friends call me bro.
For me though I will call myself a boy when people start talking about how young I like and say that I look like a little boy. This all hurt until I finally learned how to laugh at myself. Now if they say it I will too, but anyone only calls me a boy in the context of a joke.
No, I wouldn't call (be called) a boy either. It would be very disrespectful and I don't think it is age-appropriate to call myself that. I use those other words. One term I really like is "buddy", as in (some friendly stranger) "Let me help you with that buddy". My dentist was right on board after I told him and started calling me that, as in "Open your mouth buddy". LOL
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on December 24, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
I didn't identify with the word "woman" either, but I think the idea that there are some physical events that tie one to the body.
--Jay
Exactly the same for me. I have never really liked the word man because I was raised to believe that a MAN was superior to a woman and somehow better than me solely because of a thing between his legs. I hated the word women because it felt like an insult to my manhood that I think I always knew I had but never understood. I like to be called guy or young man.
Quote from: Caleb18 on December 29, 2013, 12:37:14 PM
Exactly the same for me. I have never really liked the word man because I was raised to believe that a MAN was superior to a woman and somehow better than me solely because of a thing between his legs. I hated the word women because it felt like an insult to my manhood that I think I always knew I had but never understood. I like to be called guy or young man.
Well, though I don't think of woman as an insult (I mean to *women*) might be to me as I am not one. But I actually think I think of women as a more positive thing than man, since I was involved in the women's movement back in the day (wasn't a separatist or anything-- I do know a couple of those who are transmen!). Actually might have struggled a bit with this one, because I am now a white male. But whether I like the whole of white male-hood or not, it doesn't much matter. :)
--Jay
I think that honestly for me being transgender is so exciting because I can finally work towards being a man. I think that even as a little kid, I was a young man. I always felt like one. Especially when I was doing little stuff for my mom or little sister like climbing up to get a box of something in the grocery store or walking by them to protect them when we were out. I have always been protective and supportive. I know I am not a man, yet but I am so excited to be one. I am so excited to make a woman feel special and shower her in gifts and cut her grass. I feel like I have always NEEDED to experience my manhood. *glowing in excitement*
I feel like this a lot.
I think much of it is due to me being pre t and pre op... I do feel great when people address me with "mate" or "guy" but I don't feel like a man yet, not in my eyes.. Because I have the appearance of a much younger person. I know that I look very young and no where near as old as a man looks i.e. With a beard, more angular features etc.
So you're not alone in the aspect of it feeling weird. I think a lot of us who look like kids go through this. It doesn't feel right to be addressed as a man because we don't look it and are still without the attributes that a man normally has because of uncontrollable aspects like not having hormones etc.