Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I recently found this interesting piece of information from the Internet about four transsexuals that regretted having changed their sex.

Renée Richards

First consider the case of Renée Richards, who transitioned and had SRS in 1975 at age 40, and who was widely outed the next year as the "transsexual tennis player". Renee's story was widely reported in the media, and her story initially did a lot of good by announcing to a new generation of young TS girls that "sex change was possible", just as Christine Jorgensen's case had done in the mid-1950's. In 1983, she went on to write an autobiography about her transition entitled "Second Serve", which stimulated further notoriety about her situation and about transsexualism in general, especially regarding whether post-op women should be allowed to participate as women in competitive sports.

Unfortunately, the extensive publicity about Renée's "sex change", publicity which she largely brought on herself, generated a widespread public image of her as a "transsexual" rather than a woman. The mystique surrounding her case widely propagated the image that post-op women are not women after all, but are instead whatever "Renée Richards" is.
Part of Renée's problem with public acceptance, and possibly (though unconsciously) with her own inner self-acceptance, was undoubtedly her unusual facial structure. She had a very feminine, well-toned and attractive body, and must have thought of herself as being very beautiful. She sought media attention at every turn, and her photos were widely disseminated.  Unfortunately, she never seemed to realize that she had a very prominent male brow-bulge and large male jaw and chin. Back in the 1970's and 80's, few transsexual women were aware that such features gave off powerful male gender cues, causing unease in other people without those people quite knowing why they felt this reaction (this awareness developed much later, in the 1990's, as people saw the dramatic before/after results of Douglas Ousterhout's pioneering facial feminization;surgeries).
 
For whatever reasons, including the sports-based notoriety surrounding her name - combined with the wide dissemination of her photographs - people always seemed to think of Renée as a "transsexual" rather than as a woman.  This was unlike the situations that had faced other widely known post-op women such as Christine Jorgensen and April Ashley, who although facing problems of discrimination were nevertheless quite generally thought of and reacted to as women by most folks, even in those early days. 
 
In the end this may have become a major problem for Renee. Or perhaps as the media attention faded and as social, relational, emotional and physical realities set in, her hopes for an unendingly sexy, exciting life as a center of attention faded too.  Whatever the reason, her transition failed to meet even her own expectations, and Renee now acknowledges that she wishes that she had NOT undergone a sex change. 


 
 

Interesting, but you're only allowed to post 200 words and a link crediting the author. Hugs, Devlyn

Awful article. There seems to be widespread confusion among the stories between "sex change" and "gender transition". Not clear whether the subjects shouldn't have had sex changes or shouldn't have transitioned. They all SAY they shouldn't have had the sex change, but when you read the background, it seems like it was the gender transition that caused them the problem and not the operation itself. In fact, when I skimmed the article, I wasn't able to find a single problem that was caused by the surgery itself.

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever it is did very little research about the transition process. They are stuck in the mindset that SRS=transition, something that most people learn very early in their research is a widespread but especially boneheaded misconception.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 16, 2013, 12:21:33 PM
Interesting, but you're only allowed to post 200 words and a link crediting the author. Hugs, Devlyn

Sorry Devlynn, I forgot to check my prose.

The author was Lynn Conway. You can go into anyone of her websites and find it.

Here are the posting guidelines: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,12805.0.html

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 16, 2013, 12:43:37 PM
Awful article. There seems to be widespread confusion among the stories between "sex change" and "gender transition". Not clear whether the subjects shouldn't have had sex changes or shouldn't have transitioned. They all SAY they shouldn't have had the sex change, but when you read the background, it seems like it was the gender transition that caused them the problem and not the operation itself. In fact, when I skimmed the article, I wasn't able to find a single problem that was caused by the surgery itself.

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever it is did very little research about the transition process. They are stuck in the mindset that SRS=transition, something that most people learn very early in their research is a widespread but especially boneheaded misconception.

What it's basically saying, is that all the transsexuals mentioned all thought that by having SRS done would make them all more feminine. But it didn't. I think what it's trying to say is worry more about the outside appearances than what people can't see.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 16, 2013, 12:44:55 PM
Sorry Devlynn, I forgot to check my prose. The author was Lynn Conway.

I'm floored. Conway is one of the most knowledgeable and well spoken people about transgender. I'm really shocked that this came from her, but it's on her website, so it has to be from her.

I'm really surprised that she would blur the line between SRS and transition the way she does.

Sorry TL:DR...

I imagine there will always be people who go though SRS and then regret it for any number of reasons. I worry that this might be me too, that no amount of surgery or HRT will change the fundamental dilemma that I wasn't born a cis woman.  :-\

It's a shame that articles like this aren't counterbalanced with stories from those who are happy with their transition. There seems to be a degree of schadenfreude in digging up examples of "failures" - to prove what point exactly I have no idea.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 16, 2013, 12:43:37 PM
I don't know who wrote it, but whomever it is did very little research about the transition process. They are stuck in the mindset that SRS=transition, something that most people learn very early in their research is a widespread but especially boneheaded misconception.

I think this really hits the nail on the head. I think a lot of people don't realize that transition comes with a very unique set of challenges, and it really sounds to me like a lot of the people in this article were, for whatever reason, unable to adjust. I don't even think it means they were never trans, I think it means that they didn't know how to actualize and accept themselves as their true gender emotionally.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 16, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
I'm floored. Conway is one of the most knowledgeable and well spoken people about transgender. I'm really shocked that this came from her, but it's on her website, so it has to be from her.

I'm really surprised that she would blur the line between SRS and transition the way she does.

Really glad that you checked it out to authenticate it.  :) I've read a lot of her stuff, and yeah, she seems to be pretty knowledgeable about things pertaining to the trangender.

Quote from: caleb. on December 16, 2013, 01:12:51 PM
I think this really hits the nail on the head. I think a lot of people don't realize that transition comes with a very unique set of challenges, and it really sounds to me like a lot of the people in this article were, for whatever reason, unable to adjust. I don't even think it means they were never trans, I think it means that they didn't know how to actualize and accept themselves as their true gender emotionally.

Very good point there Caleb. I especially enjoyed the story about Sam. He had the money and he thought that by becoming a woman would be better for his life. Fortunately, because he had the money he could also return back to being a man, but emotionally he was still the same. Maybe if he had taken the time with a therapist he would have saved himself a lot of trouble.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 16, 2013, 12:53:49 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 16, 2013, 12:48:24 PM
Here are the posting guidelines: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,12805.0.html

Hugs, Devlyn

Maybe, if it's allright I can seperate it into four seperate posts. Will that work?

No, sorry hon, it's a copyright issue. We can only post small portions of an article with a link to the original. Just post the link so people can go to the original article to read it.

I think, imho, that many articles/tv shows that talk about regrets are basically pandering to the non-trans/allies audiences in order to affirm their own prejudiced belief that TG/TS people are fundamentally insane, and after the fact regrets = result of temporary insanity.

I would like to see some kind of essay about those with regrets, telling why/how they made the decision for the operation, and what has caused them to have regrets...the operation itself, expectations of self, acceptance by self and/or others, maintenance issues, unsuccessful outcome, etc.

That would be of more use to us, I think.

I went looking for stuff online to try and deny that I'm transsexual or push it away and most of the stuff I found about regretting is people that either their transition failed to meet their expectations or their transition was rushed. At least the stuff that is real anyways.

Quote from: caleb. on December 16, 2013, 01:12:51 PM

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 16, 2013, 12:43:37 PM
I don't know who wrote it, but whomever it is did very little research about the transition process. They are stuck in the mindset that SRS=transition, something that most people learn very early in their research is a widespread but especially boneheaded misconception.

I think this really hits the nail on the head. I think a lot of people don't realize that transition comes with a very unique set of challenges, and it really sounds to me like a lot of the people in this article were, for whatever reason, unable to adjust. I don't even think it means they were never trans, I think it means that they didn't know how to actualize and accept themselves as their true gender emotionally.

I agree with Gina - very good point. It seems like common thinking in the trans community is that if you're mentally female (or male), then everything will just fall into place. Or that anyone who has issues adjusting must not really have been trans. There's a lot more to gender than just brain sex or identity or being naturally masculine or feminine. And even for people who 'pass' well and adjust well - being trans is just not the same as being a cis man or woman - even for those with cis privilege due to stealth and appearance.

It makes perfect sense that some people no matter how 'naturally female or male' will have problems adjusting to a whole new life and gender role. After all, even if you're a trans woman who was extremely feminine in her former life as a 'guy', you're now being seen and treated differently by the world at large. It's a lot to take in. A lot to adjust to. And add to this the fact that there are so many issues (physical, psychological, and social) that trans people have to cope with that cis people don't - and it makes total sense some people may wish they'd never gone through with it and miss their old life.

Sure there are some cases of regretters who were just 'nuts' (for lack of a politer term) but that's probably not the case for many. And it does make some sense that older transitioners may be more likely to regret just because they were more entrenched in their former lives and usually have left a lot more behind than younger ones.

These kinds of stories do seem to harm the cause. But out of fear of not being taken seriously, we've sort of created this culture where those who de-transition, never transition at all, or neglect to have certain procedures are looked down upon and discouraged from telling their stories. Frankly, I don't believe that full transition is right for every case regardless of mental gender identity.

Not everybody can change one of the most fundamental things about how they experience the world - gender transition changes virtually every aspect of life - . Some can handle change better than others. Some can handle everything they may have to give up or go through better than others. Some people are simply more adaptable than others. To say nothing of the fact that many have physical and/or personality traits that make for a more favorable social reception after transition than others. (No small thing).

I don't think this says anything about who's 'really female or male' mentally or emotionally. You could have the most feminine soul in the world with a very strong female identity who simply may be less equipped for everything that successful transition involves than her more 'masculine', less binary identified counterpart. Transition is a huge life change that favors certain personalities more than others.

Quote from: FA on December 16, 2013, 02:35:13 PM
Sure there are some cases of regretters who were just 'nuts' (for lack of a politer term) but that's probably not the case for many. And it does make some sense that older transitioners may be more likely to regret just because they were more entrenched in their former lives and usually have left a lot more behind than younger ones.

There's a better term: "had underlying psychological conditions" might have been a nicer choice.

Otherwise I can agree with this and it gives me hope. I've always thought of myself as adaptable.

Quote from: kabit on December 16, 2013, 02:44:48 PM
There's a better term: "had underlying psychological conditions" might have been a nicer choice.

Otherwise I can agree with this and it gives me hope. I've always thought of myself as adaptable.

Aye.

Quote from: FA on December 16, 2013, 02:35:13 PM
These kinds of stories do seem to harm the cause. But out of fear of not being taken seriously, we've sort of created this culture where those who de-transition, never transition at all, or neglect to have certain procedures are looked down upon and discouraged from telling their stories. Frankly, I don't believe that full transition is right for every case regardless of mental gender identity.

I think the important thing is to just take things slow and go one step at a time. As much as I'd like to wake up as a girl tomorrow and be recognized as one by everyone around me, I know that's not going to happen. Right now I'm just trying to figure out what feels right and what doesn't. Going on full dose HRT is the next step, and after that, well, who knows? It depends a lot on how well I am able to pass in practice, and what I think I need to feel comfortable with myself. SRS is probably the last thing I'd consider, both because passing socially is much more important to me, and because I was never sexually active as a male to begin with.

It also seems to me that for those with regrets, there are things about being male that they lost and wished they had back. Maybe if they had taken things more slowly, they would have realized how much they missed these things before they went past the point of no return. Though I can't even imagine anything like that happening in my case. There was never any part of being male I felt attached to, so there's nothing for me to miss.

What I have learned as I have gotten old is that everything in life has its up side and its down side.   Very little happens to me in life exactly how I imagined it to happen.     Aging has brought changes to my body that has created limits to what I can do in life.   There is no perfect way to be.    I do not expect that in any way any physical changes I have made to my body to further feminize my appearance will solve any of my problems.   The changes will just help me respond in a more feminine way then I do now.    Also, what feminine parts others imagine I have will actually be there.  Having even a fake vagina will help me have sex in a more effeminate manner.   

It will never wipe away the fact that I was born with the body of a male.    It will never change that I have never have to deal with having a period.   I will never have to worry about getting pregnant.   I will have missed out on many of the experiences that most woman have.   My female organs will only be a replica of what cis woman have.

But,  I will not have to worry about being a woman with a male appearing body.    Will this ever happen, who knows.   At one time I had never imagined that I would have gotten rid of all of my male clothing and have a closet and dresser full of "my own"  female clothing which I bought   I would have never thought that I would dress as my female self all the time.   I would never have thought that many people in public would treat me as a woman.   I would never have thought that a few of my old friends would like my coming out as a transgender woman, and the rest would not unfriend me.

All of this has not solved any of my deep emotional problems,  but what is has solved for me is that I am no longer paralyzed by fear of any one finding out my secret, and I am not frightened to my core about being a female in public.   I am a female in public, and I am now just a little bit apprehensive about the possibility of someone's abusive reaction to me.   I feel freer to explore the possibilities of becoming more and more effeminate and some day changing my body physically.   I feel that I will never hide my femininity and will proudly live out the rest of my life as a woman.

Being a woman does not solve any of my problems, it just means being myself.     Regrets, there will always be.   My main regret now is that I did not begin this journey earlier in life.   I cannot regret using my male organ to father 6 children, nor will I never wish them out of existence.   So transitioning late  in life has left a lot of paradoxes in my life.   So, I expect that if I every have surgery, there will be some regrets about having it done later, and other regrets about the fact that I did not have surgery earlier in life.   Will I be a perfect woman if I have surgery,  definitely not.   Being 67 I expect as many problems with my future female organ as I have problems with my male prostrate which has started acting up.   A male organ with a urinary tract infection is not fun, especially if the doctor expects it is caused by an enlarged prostrate.   So if I some day I have a female surgery I expect that I will have problems with my vagina such as it will be, including painful urinary tract infections.   But old age for me is aches and pains and a total mismatch between the expectations that my mind has for the way my body functions and the actual way my body does function.   

Regret can be caused by to high imaginary expectations about what surgery will do.   When I look back over my life, I see my life's experiences a kin to climbing Mt. Everest.   Very few people climb Mt. Everest for the oxygen deprivation, the frost bite, or the fear of falling into an icy crevice.   If that were the case why not run naked across the thin ice on a cold winter's day.   I am sure that you can be short on breath, get frost bite, and risk falling through a crack in the ice.   Life has left my body with all of the aches and pains and more that you can get from climbing Mt.  Everest.   Having sexual reasignment surgery for me will be a similiar experience for me if it ever happens. 

Any regrets, will just be a normal part of that experience.  My life will go on.

Great posts all, thank you.

While it is interesting to understand others and know more about how some people react to the dynamics of transition it is still their life and definitely not mine.  We are unique and yes, adaptability is key.  My wife and I also acknowledge that many of the bigger challenges in our relationship have more to do with our fundamental skills and habits vs. my being transgender.  Communication is so important!
As an "older transitioner" it is only reasonable to acknowledge our bigger baggage profile.  For me, however, it's the bigger they are the harder they fall!  Ya, and stay down!  I am loving my transition and each step, carefully considered and deliberate, has confirmed my sense of self and my true identity.  SRS/GCS may yet be in my future but not essential.  Making progress is mostly between my ears as my body and self image get closer aligned.

NO regrets here other than starting late!

A common misconception of transitioning is that it is the end all be be all, but it's not. Whatever issues one had before transition will be there after. Then there's the spectre of living in the new gender. I'm sure there's some let down after surgery, which is natural. I'm a proponent of some post op counseling because they are real issues.

:)

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 16, 2013, 01:09:22 PM
It's a shame that articles like this aren't counterbalanced with stories from those who are happy with their transition. There seems to be a degree of schadenfreude in digging up examples of "failures" - to prove what point exactly I have no idea.

To be fair, this is buried very deeply into Conway's website which is full of positive and useful (and accurate) info about transgender. I had to follow three or four links even to get to it.

And Conway knows of what she speaks.

For those who aren't familiar with her story, she worked for IBM in the '70s and helped pioneer computer technology on which they built their empire. When she told them she was going to transition, they fired her pretty much on the spot, and for decades she had trouble finding work in the very industry she helped found.

I'm sure she did some soul-searching herself as to whether her own transition was worth it.

Just to throw in my two cents:

There's a survey of 448 trans individuals which was done in 2011 that really goes to show that all of these stories of regret and horror are REALLY overblown. Yes, they do happen, but we're basically defending ourselves against a very vocal minority that is somehow making it seem like transition is wrong for everyone just because it was wrong for them, when in reality around 96% are satisfied with transition as a whole, with 90% satisfied with SRS.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftransstudent.org%2Ftransregretssmall.jpg&hash=54358b8a5f9b0f740aebba9dcf12faf230ddd9ad)

Quote from: Tessa James on December 16, 2013, 04:08:38 PM
Great posts all, thank you.

Communication is so important! As an "older transitioner" it is only reasonable to acknowledge our bigger baggage profile. I am loving my transition and each step, carefully considered and deliberate, has confirmed my sense of self and my true identity.  SRS/GCS may yet be in my future but not essential.  Making progress is mostly between my ears as my body and self image get closer aligned.

NO regrets here other than starting late!

Tessa, I love your attitude! :eusa_clap:

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 16, 2013, 07:26:42 PM
To be fair, this is buried very deeply into Conway's website which is full of positive and useful (and accurate) info about transgender. I had to follow three or four links even to get to it.

And Conway knows of what she speaks.

For those who aren't familiar with her story, she worked for IBM in the '70s and helped pioneer computer technology on which they built their empire. When she told them she was going to transition, they fired her pretty much on the spot, and for decades she had trouble finding work in the very industry she helped found.

I'm sure she did some soul-searching herself as to whether her own transition was worth it.

Lynn Conway definently set a standard for the generation of transgender population to come.  :eusa_clap:

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 16, 2013, 07:44:19 PM
Just to throw in my two cents:

There's a survey of 448 trans individuals which was done in 2011 that really goes to show that all of these stories of regret and horror are REALLY overblown. Yes, they do happen, but we're basically defending ourselves against a very vocal minority that is somehow making it seem like transition is wrong for everyone just because it was wrong for them, when in reality around 96% are satisfied with transition as a whole, with 90% satisfied with SRS.

Nice post! 

I have read postings from a number of quite vocal de-transitioners on the interwebz who feel they must invalidate everyone else's trans* experience in order to validate their own lives.   Is SRS for everyone under the transgender umbrella?  No way.  Some people clearly should not go there, especially those who are not actually transsexuals.   It's sad that some of these individuals have effectively ruined it for the rest of us by increasing the perceived need for gatekeeping measures.

There is the grass is always greener no matter which side you are on effect that goes on with just about everybody.  Your psyche has a way of ironing out the wrinkles the further in the past things fall.  When you don't feel the intensity of being in the moment with the darkness, with your very existence being unbearable, because you have taken yourself out of it through transition, you have stopped being a reliable narrator of your past.  You won't see yourself that way though, because you did live through those black days, so obviously (you tell yourself) you know how it felt. Then feeling the intensity of being in a moment now with a present-day problem, you look back on your smoothed-out past and think maybe it wasn't so bad, maybe your life was better then.  It wasn't, your perception just has been distorted by time.

My feeling is don't make major changes unless there is no other option, and until there isn't, try to make the best of things.  That goes for both transitioning and de-transitioning.  These are just not things to do on a whim, especially considering the distortion of perception which can lead to some majorly faulty judgement if you aren't super careful.

I don't know!  I was part of that suck it up and make the best of things pragmatism that sufficed for depth and is more about adaptation or survival.  One may avoid looking at the darkness for decades.  There are all kinds of things we can do, regret and let go of...  Guilt and shame are constructs that can transcend the distortions of time.  We already know what it's like to be different.  I did that nonsense of trying to be something else.  Forgedaboutit. and damn the torpedoes.  Be yourself and feel liberated to your own best abilities.

Oh and yes, be super carful :D
 

I know what you mean.  I almost didn't survive all my caution and waiting till I didn't have a choice, and I lost a lot of years to misery, so yeah that approach definitely has it's own risks.  I would say just don't trust your memories of how good and pleasant things were in the past, and certainly don't let them be the guiding force behind any major decision you make.

Quote from: Jen on December 16, 2013, 09:39:48 PM
My feeling is don't make major changes unless there is no other option, and until there isn't, try to make the best of things. 

This scares the crap out of me.

I'm signed up for surgery this summer. Unlike transitioning, I feel like there IS an option. I could live for the rest of my life with male underparts. I would not be at peace with my body and that would make life less happier than it could be, but certainly nowhere near unbearable.

Is this an awful mistake?

Hmmm well duh, sure some will regret the surgery.

Some will regret doing it, some will regret NOT doing it. Some will regret doing it early and some will regret doing it late.

The article serves no purpose in telling any of us that you might regret it.

You might regret many things in your life.

I regret trying to join the army in the hindsight sense of the word. I regret reading text books in a way, but not. Because is made me bored in high school which lead to lousy performance in class, lousy marks which mangled my education on paper. All because I was too educated too fast. Now how is that for a kicker eh.

I regret not having a second child all because I had to be the responsible member of society and NOT put undo pressure on the 'system' that supports me. My being responsible denied my son of a brother or sister. Being an only child didn't do my father any favours. Life was not easy for him supporting his divorced mother as 16. Maybe I should have just said screw it I am having another child.

I will go to my grave regretting that choice but SRS surgery? no not a chance in my case. If I was going to regret anything about my transition, I'd have done it the day I mentioned I was female more than a year ago.

It is unfortunate I might have lost some people in my life over this. But then again, I don't regret forcing people to reveal their true colours either. I would rather know the people I can count on. YOU can live in fear of finding out, I am glad though I know who is a REAL friend. One real proven friend is worth any number of unestablished friends. You can't make my life economically comfortable enough to make living a fake existence a good trade.

I'd gladly die on the street as a woman alone and unwanted if it meant I got to check out as a woman at least.

Suzi : I felt the same way, and had some doubts right up until the night before. I was reasonably sure I'd be happier afterward, but I never felt like I NEEDED surgery in order to keep living or to have above-zero quality of life. I'm still delighted that I did it, and grateful every day. :) Obviously I can't tell you how you'll feel (if only we could predict the future!), but the narrative that everyone must be *desperate* to get surgery or they'll regret it seems damaging, in the same way that being told that true transsexuals have to be suicidal before they transition convinced me that I must be faking.

There is apparently at least one woman on this forum who posts occasionally about desperately regretting GRS, but she also says she was forced into it and did it mostly to get her documents in order, which it turns out *was* a bad reason.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 17, 2013, 06:36:24 AM
This scares the crap out of me.

I'm signed up for surgery this summer. Unlike transitioning, I feel like there IS an option. I could live for the rest of my life with male underparts. I would not be at peace with my body and that would make life less happier than it could be, but certainly nowhere near unbearable.

Is this an awful mistake?

I would not say anything is a mistake.  You have to figure out what's right for you and then do it.  I do know doubts are very common with that step leading up to it.  Just listen to yourself.  I think the thing I said before could be paralyzing for some and I wish i worded it differently, because at some point you gave to gather the evidence and take a leap, otherwise you'll just sit on the edge of the pool for your whole life long.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on December 17, 2013, 07:40:21 AM
Hmmm well duh, sure some will regret the surgery.

Some will regret doing it, some will regret NOT doing it. Some will regret doing it early and some will regret doing it late.

The article serves no purpose in telling any of us that you might regret it.

You might regret many things in your life.

I regret trying to join the army in the hindsight sense of the word. I regret reading text books in a way, but not. Because is made me bored in high school which lead to lousy performance in class, lousy marks which mangled my education on paper. All because I was too educated too fast. Now how is that for a kicker eh.

I regret not having a second child all because I had to be the responsible member of society and NOT put undo pressure on the 'system' that supports me. My being responsible denied my son of a brother or sister. Being an only child didn't do my father any favours. Life was not easy for him supporting his divorced mother as 16. Maybe I should have just said screw it I am having another child.

I will go to my grave regretting that choice but SRS surgery? no not a chance in my case. If I was going to regret anything about my transition, I'd have done it the day I mentioned I was female more than a year ago.

It is unfortunate I might have lost some people in my life over this. But then again, I don't regret forcing people to reveal their true colours either. I would rather know the people I can count on. YOU can live in fear of finding out, I am glad though I know who is a REAL friend. One real proven friend is worth any number of unestablished friends. You can't make my life economically comfortable enough to make living a fake existence a good trade.

I'd gladly die on the street as a woman alone and unwanted if it meant I got to check out as a woman at least.

Well said, well said.

If we only had hindsight. Life is full of choices we must make. Some for the good, some for the bad. The thing is not to just jump in with both feet and hope. Most of the time this will lead to bad choices.

Izzy

The US insurance companies who have insured SRS thru various companies have not regretted it. Of course they regret any coverage they give anybody but that's another subject. What they thought would thousands and thousands of surgeries have not ended up to be that. Not everybody signs on the line for this, so it isn't something EVERYBODY does. And I am obviously many more people are happy with their surgeries, thank you very much, but it isn't transition.

I also disliked the, I don't care if a woman wrote this, but it is mysogynist with all the discussion of her lack of physical beauty, presence of brow ridge, et al. It seems catty and petty, esp lines like she brought this all on herself seeking the limelight.

--Jay

I remember Richards quite well! I transitioned and had SRS in 1974 and was therefore quite aware of her and her first book. At the time she struck me as being a headline seeker. She had a well established life in professional tennis as a man but was hardly doing well. To transition with a high public profile would have been hard enough but to seek (and receive) public attention would have made ti much more difficult ti be fully accepted.  Everyone before her had at least TRIED to maintain some privacy but the few that were outed were outed by the media against their will and they didn't write a book about it or try to cash in on the notoriety. Even back then I was NOT impressed and wished she had just kept a low profile and avoided the media like those before her had done. Christine Jorgensen, for example, handled it all with class and dignity. She did not make a big deal of what she HAD BEEN but used what she was (a woman) in a positive way.

For me in 1974, I had always had trouble passing for a guy and with transition I slipped quietly into my new life in stealth and nobody was the wiser. I had one encounter with the media in 1976 but was able to slip back into anonymity and shake the bloodhounds off my trail. In 40 years I have not one single regret. Life since then has just been normal, the way  it should have been from the start and I never once considered going back - the very idea is absurd!!!

There are risk of failure with any decision you made in life. There are always some risk that I can end up regretting in the future. If that happen, well thats just life, I'll deal with it and go on.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 17, 2013, 06:36:24 AM
This scares the crap out of me.

I'm signed up for surgery this summer. Unlike transitioning, I feel like there IS an option. I could live for the rest of my life with male underparts. I would not be at peace with my body and that would make life less happier than it could be, but certainly nowhere near unbearable.

Is this an awful mistake?

Nothing really to be scared about. As long as you're emotionally and psychologically ready for your surgery, you'll have nothing to worry about. That was the main problem with the aformentioned transsexuals here. They didn't recieve the proper therapy and they just jumped right in and felt that by becoming women and getting the SRS done would completely change them into women 100% and that was it. If they had taken the time to get the other things done then they would have been 100% better. {Just my opinion.}

My ex-gf will have SRS next year.  I don't think she is ready due to two reasons; she's rich and she has what I believe is a psychological personality disorder.  Money is no object to her so she can have as many surgeries as she wants within a reasonable amount of healing time between procedures.  She now wants to have some modifications done facially to, in her terms, 'correct some mistakes and inadequacies created by her first plastic surgeon.  A surgeon who happens to be a renowned surgeon in the Boston area.

My point being, she could use some good therapeutic measures to deal with the feelings of inadequacy before she has SRS.  I fear she will suffer from intolerable body syndrome if she doesn't work on who is, truly find her 'sense of self'.

Quote from: karahayes on December 21, 2013, 06:05:29 PM
My ex-gf will have SRS next year.  I don't think she is ready due to two reasons; she's rich and she has what I believe is a psychological personality disorder.  Money is no object to her so she can have as many surgeries as she wants within a reasonable amount of healing time between procedures.  She now wants to have some modifications done facially to, in her terms, 'correct some mistakes and inadequacies created by her first plastic surgeon.  A surgeon who happens to be a renowned surgeon in the Boston area.

My point being, she could use some good therapeutic measures to deal with the feelings of inadequacy before she has SRS.  I fear she will suffer from intolerable body syndrome if she doesn't work on who is, truly find her 'sense of self'.

Very good points you've made. Psychologically, if you really need SRS to feel 100% like a woman and need to be 100% like a woman than I say go for it. I just met this wonderful 63 year old transsexual and she feels that she's too old to get SRS done, so she's content to live out the rest of her life the way she is, and on the outside, I think she's beautiful! But thoose that have money like Samantha Kane who thought that her life would be better off as a woman only to find that it wasn't so £25,000 on three operations to turn him back into a male but unfortunately two years later he when he was dressed in a suit, he looked neither man nor woman, and vestiges of his beautiful alter ego Samantha remained. Basically what I'm saying is that there is only so much you can do to your body.  

You know what the original article didn't mention? How unhappy she was before her transition. Something had to cause her to want to transition and I wonder (1) how many de-transitioners forget the unhappiness they felt as their birth gender and (2) how de-transitioners feel years after they de-transition. That's one study I would like to see. I bet they are unhappier than their post-transition selves.

Jane

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 22, 2013, 07:20:33 AM
You know what the original article didn't mention? How unhappy she was before her transition. Something had to cause her to want to transition and I wonder (1) how many de-transitioners forget the unhappiness they felt as their birth gender and (2) how de-transitioners feel years after they de-transition. That's one study I would like to see. I bet they are unhappier than their post-transition selves.

Jane

In the wikipedia about Renee Richards, it does say that in the mid -1960s he had traveled in Europe dressed as a woman. He had intended to go to North Africa to see Georges Burou, a famous gynecological surgeon at Clinique Parc in Casablanca, Morocco, regarding sex reassignment surgery; however, he ultimately decided against it and returned to New York. There, he married a woman, Barbara, and together they had one son. In the early 1970s, he again decided to undergo sex reassignment surgery and was referred to surgeon Roberto C. Granato Sr., by Harry Benjamin, successfully transitioning in 1975. 

Richards was barred from playing as a woman in the U.S. Open in 1976 unless she submitted to chromosomal testing. She sued the United States Tennis Association, and in 1977, she won the right to play as a woman without submitting to any testing.   

Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 17, 2013, 07:45:46 AM
Suzi : I felt the same way, and had some doubts right up until the night before. I was reasonably sure I'd be happier afterward, but I never felt like I NEEDED surgery in order to keep living or to have above-zero quality of life. I'm still delighted that I did it, and grateful every day. :) Obviously I can't tell you how you'll feel (if only we could predict the future!), but the narrative that everyone must be *desperate* to get surgery or they'll regret it seems damaging, in the same way that being told that true transsexuals have to be suicidal before they transition convinced me that I must be faking.

There is apparently at least one woman on this forum who posts occasionally about desperately regretting GRS, but she also says she was forced into it and did it mostly to get her documents in order, which it turns out *was* a bad reason.

I'm happy to see this. It's liberating. I think it is a damaging narrative. I've often wondered: could this be an outdated narrative from a earlier day, when it was much more of a rare thing to transition ~ since so much more was a 'guaranteed loss' (family, job, home, etc) in those times? I.E. You should only transition if you're not planning on living any other way?

I was convinced you had to be suicidal to want to transition. I've never felt suicidal. I would not kill myself if I couldn't get my SRS. I would never have continued living as a male, that's for damn sure.  I was really stuck in the middle. I've wondered the whole time why the suicide narrative didn't seem to pertain to my case.

Even though this likely stunted my transition some, the upside is that I've taken my transition extremely carefully and slowly, (primarily because of that narrative) over-testing and and likely over evaluating myself at each step..but still feeling *just fine* to move onward. But because of that the little 'suicide narrative' voice..I kept doubtfully wondering why everything feels so normal. I didn't let it stop me.

I started my transition in 2008. I still never felt like I made one wrong step..save for not doing this twenty years earlier. I approach my SRS now (six months off).

Of course, I wonder how I'll be feeling post op. I have the usual fears. I guess this is only natural. But like Suzi, I think I'll feel delighted and grateful to myself that I had everything corrected below, and matching what's above. :)

There are high-profile cases involving people regretting SRS, but Richards was not one of them.

"Richards, now 72 and without a partner, said she does not regret the sex change operation at the age of 40 -- although she might have liked to have gone through the process a bit earlier -- but she does have misgivings about her notoriety" [italics mine]
("Transsexual pioneer Renee Richards regrets fame" Goldsmith, 2007. Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/02/18/us-richards-idUSN1619986120070218)

Quote from: livinit on December 26, 2013, 11:55:00 PM
I'm happy to see this. It's liberating. I think it is a damaging narrative. I've often wondered: could this be an outdated narrative from a earlier day, when it was much more of a rare thing to transition ~ since so much more was a 'guaranteed loss' (family, job, home, etc) in those times? I.E. You should only transition if you're not planning on living any other way?

I was convinced you had to be suicidal to want to transition. I've never felt suicidal. I would not kill myself if I couldn't get my SRS. I would never have continued living as a male, that's for damn sure.  I was really stuck in the middle. I've wondered the whole time why the suicide narrative didn't seem to pertain to my case.

Even though this likely stunted my transition some, the upside is that I've taken my transition extremely carefully and slowly, (primarily because of that narrative) over-testing and and likely over evaluating myself at each step..but still feeling *just fine* to move onward. But because of that the little 'suicide narrative' voice..I kept doubtfully wondering why everything feels so normal. I didn't let it stop me.

I started my transition in 2008. I still never felt like I made one wrong step..save for not doing this twenty years earlier. I approach my SRS now (six months off).

Of course, I wonder how I'll be feeling post op. I have the usual fears. I guess this is only natural. But like Suzi, I think I'll feel delighted and grateful to myself that I had everything corrected below, and matching what's above. :)

Sometime suicide does enter the mind at some point. I have a pretty strong mind, and it hasn't happened to me yet. But I do recall a sister from this site telling me a few years ago that she was in the hospital just after getting her SRS done, and they rolled her roommate in and the next morning she went through the window. I guess psychologically she wasn't ready for the change.

Every time I hear about this kind of thing, people who are completely miserable after GRS, going full time, whatever...... I have to wonder..... What happened before? Most Trans folks do HRT and some have to do a year of full time to get HRT. Where they miserable then? When they changed their name, legal documents, and came out to friends and family, did they have any regrets or issues? It seems like many of these stories go from 0 to GRS w/out any info/issues. Then all of a sudden they are completely miserable and are often using their misery to warn others.  ???

livinit : That's an interesting theory, and a plausible one. I do know that quite a few people who have told me that "you have to be suicidal thing," and most of them ALSO said more or less what you postulate : that for *them,* it was a question of whether they took a risk on losing everything in their life or lost their life. I'm not saying they're wrong or shouldn't tell their stories, either! But I think it's good for people like you and I to tell ours, too. :)

I was never suicidal over transition, and like you, I basically redefined it for myself as "do I want this next specific step? OK, let's try that and see how I feel." I was certain by a few months in that I wanted to transition to full-time female and have GRS... but I had those same self-doubts that maybe I shouldn't commit to the WHOLE plan if I wasn't 100% suicidally miserable. (I jerked my wife around a lot during that period, unfortunately, since she kind of wanted - and needed - to know the "whole" plan.)

Heck, once I got far enough along, I also added feeling guilty that I was having it so much easier than some other people, especially those who'd been suicidally depressed and suffered terribly. (I didn't lose anything serious in my life; marriage, career, and family are actually all improved now.) I didn't exactly transition on a whim, but it could feel that way sometimes compared to some of the stories out there.

Good luck with your upcoming surgery!!

I have met personally perhaps a dozen postops in person (that I knew of). I'm not in an area that this is a common phenomenon being St. Charles county/St. Louis county. None are nonfunctional people, of course they have the caveat if they were nonfunctioning adults would I have met them? Anyway none of them have expressed extraordinary regret, some certainly say there is postop blues. Some of that may be related to sexual expectations and finding partners.

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 22, 2013, 07:20:33 AM
You know what the original article didn't mention? How unhappy she was before her transition. Something had to cause her to want to transition and I wonder (1) how many de-transitioners forget the unhappiness they felt as their birth gender and (2) how de-transitioners feel years after they de-transition. That's one study I would like to see. I bet they are unhappier than their post-transition selves.

Jane

I'm sure they were unhappy before the transition, otherwise the transition would have been pointless, surely. However, I think you have to give some credit for their decisions, as they are adults after all. If a de-transitioner suffers greater unhappiness, as you say, it's possible they do so because they've realised they don't fit at either extreme of the gender spectrum. I imagine that this realisation is quite difficult for many people, and rightly so given our gender binary society.

Jenna Marie: Thanks for adding credence to my little theory. It's really been a sticking point in my mind, and has bothered me immensely during the course of my transition. If it were not for that ONE gnawing detail...ugh. I cannot complain though..as I've felt the very guilt you wrote about, regarding having an easier time of it than others who were having terrible difficulties in it all. I feared losing it all..but in the end, I didn't lose anything much..two clients from one of my three jobs. Small price to pay to get rid of those cheapskates anyway! :) And it was you that I had paraphrased using the terms 'delighted and grateful'.

Sorry for the paraphrased misquote, suzifrommd, but I appreciate that you introduced this concept and got us discussing it. I think it's really important to get these out there. Times are changing (perhaps?).

livinit

Is it my imagination, or does it appear to be controversial to say that there's a possibility for regret following SRS? There is a lot of defensiveness in this thread regarding that kind of regret, as though SRS itself could never be the real reason behind the unhappiness. I understand why some people would argue this, but I think it's dangerous to dismiss SRS as one of many causes of unhappiness.

Jenna : (The other one, I guess - hi!) I absolutely believe it's possible to regret GRS, if I wasn't clear.  After all, if I could suffer dysphoria from having a body that is physically wrong, as a problem distinct from social gender transition, I have no doubt whatsoever that it must be TERRIBLE to go through a surgery that remakes one's body *into* something that is wrong. The dysphoria from that might well be worse than what I felt pre-op. I can only imagine that it's probably 1000X worse to know one made a decision that proved to be a mistake on such a scale, too.

I was trying to be reassuring to people who seem fairly sure that they're going to be happy after GRS, but who have been told they "have to" feel a certain way to guarantee it's not a mistake. Nothing I said is intended to suggest that sometimes a specific person has *not* made a mistake by having GRS, if they regret it afterward.

(I also think it's an adult's right to make decisions they might regret, mind you. People regret having kids, buying a house, or having other plastic surgery, too. Nobody argues that cis people should have to jump through hoops to prove they "deserve" to make a major life decision like a grownup.)

Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 27, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
I was trying to be reassuring to people who seem fairly sure that they're going to be happy after GRS, but who have been told they "have to" feel a certain way to guarantee it's not a mistake.

I, for one, appreciated your message. I'm someone who is relatively happy and well adjusted (indeed, I was that way before my transition, though transitioning made things even better). I'm booked for SRS in June and I worry each time I read someone who says "if you're not going over the edge, don't get SRS". I've thought long and had about it and I think, despite the pain, risk, and difficulty, that I will emerge from SRS more at peace with my body. But I can't know for sure, right?

So it's reassuring reading the things you wrote.

Suzi : I'm glad it helped. :) For what it's worth, I do honestly believe you have a good grasp on what GRS will (and won't) do for you, and that you'll probably be very happy even though you aren't desperate now. I hope so, anyway!!

Getting back on topic:

Danielle Bunten said that she advised others considering a sex change not to proceed unless there was no alternative, and warned them of the cost, saying "Being my 'real self' could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice."

Sandra MacDougall - an ex-soldier formerly known as Ian - took four years and 10,000 of NHS cash becoming a woman. But Sandra has revealed to Scotland that she wishes she was still male. The 49-year-old says her experiment with womanhood has failed, largely as a result of the blinkered attitudes of the Ayrshire community where she lives. The former member of the Scots Guards says she has suffered verbal and physical abuse since her sex swap operation almost four years ago, and wishes it could be reversed. But MacDougall now finds herself trapped in a woman's body after she consulted doctors and was told the operation could never be reversed. MacDougall, who has not had a relationship since going under the knife and expects to be celibate for the rest of her life, has now decided to make the best of her hard-won gender. She said: "Since I had the operation my life has been made a misery by people taunting me whenever I go out. "Recently when I was walking down the road a man swore at me and told me to stay away from the children." She also said she was sexually assaulted by three men by the side of a road in broad daylight, and had been disowned by her three brothers and two sisters. MacDougall added: "I would like to rejoin the army as a man again - they certainly wouldn't take me the way I am now. "People have been so cruel. I can't go anywhere now without being shouted and laughed at. Sometimes they don't say anything at all, just walk past me shaking their heads slowly." MacDougall, who served with the army in Northern Ireland and is martial arts trained, admits wanting to 'sling a punch' at her tormentors. "But I have to remember that I'm a woman and that it would not be a very lady-like thing to do," she said. She warned anyone thinking of having the operation to make sure they knew what they were letting themselves in for. She said: "Be more than 100% sure because once you've had the operation, that's it."

Charles Kane had a sex change - then hated being Samantha so became a man again. He spent £100,000 on cosmetic operations and tooth veneers to create the 'ultimate male ¬fantasy' and was so convincing as a woman he had no trouble attracting men, and was briefly engaged to a wealthy landowner.
Then, in 2004, after seven years of living as a woman, he decided he'd made a horrible mistake; the result -he believes now -of a breakdown following the acrimonious end of his 12-year ¬marriage and estrangement from his children. He hated the way female hormones made him moody and emotional. Shopping bored him and sex was a disappointment.
No matter how feminine he looked, he felt he was merely playing a role.
So, five years ago, Charles spent a further £25,000 on three operations to turn him back into a male after being referred by the gender clinic at London's Charing Cross Hospital.
His breast implants were removed and male genitalia re-constructed from skin grafts.
The trouble was, he wasn't the man he had been before.

 When I first started thinking about SRS, my psych asked me of what I was afraid.  I said being alone; separated from society and from personal relationships.

That seems to a rather common theme in those who regret SRS.

I wonder if having an orch first reduces or would reduce the post SRS regret.  I do not know.

Hugs,

Jen

I wonder what else has been going on in these individual lives and if they were of right mind and body when they transitioned? What have they done to resolve their angst? Anything? Are they generally a negative person or positive person? Did they do anything to build up a support network before and during transition? We can all probably learn some valuable lessons from them.

I just think maybe their expectations were too high or they transitioned for the wrong reasons. Maybe they weren't really transgendered? I don't know...I'm probably not one to make that call. I just think that it would be easy to misrepresent yourself to a health professional to get your referral and I can see people doing that.

Just my two cents :)

Jane

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 28, 2013, 07:31:31 AM
I just think that it would be easy to misrepresent yourself to a health professional to get your referral and I can see people doing that.

You can? Why would anyone do that?

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on December 28, 2013, 07:31:31 AM
I wonder what else has been going on in these individual lives and if they were of right mind and body when they transitioned? What have they done to resolve their angst? Anything? Are they generally a negative person or positive person? Did they do anything to build up a support network before and during transition? We can all probably learn some valuable lessons from them.

I just think maybe their expectations were too high or they transitioned for the wrong reasons. Maybe they weren't really transgendered? I don't know...I'm probably not one to make that call. I just think that it would be easy to misrepresent yourself to a health professional to get your referral and I can see people doing that.

Just my two cents :)

Jane

Y'know Jane, I can fully understand where you're coming from. All these people are high profile people. The only one I didn't list was Renee Richards, because I couldn't find what she had regreeted about, aside from not being able to play in tennis after her transition which she sued them for. But with all the money that Charles Kane had I'm sure that he overstepped some lines to do what he had to do. And Ian who became Sandra McDougall was a ex-solier from Scotland and I know that they're held in high regard and then we have Dan Bunten who became Danielle Bunten who was the video game inventor and I'm sure that she was doing very well off and could easily have over stepped some lines like Charles Kane.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 16, 2013, 07:44:19 PM
Just to throw in my two cents:

There's a survey of 448 trans individuals which was done in 2011 that really goes to show that all of these stories of regret and horror are REALLY overblown. Yes, they do happen, but we're basically defending ourselves against a very vocal minority that is somehow making it seem like transition is wrong for everyone just because it was wrong for them, when in reality around 96% are satisfied with transition as a whole, with 90% satisfied with SRS.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftransstudent.org%2Ftransregretssmall.jpg&hash=54358b8a5f9b0f740aebba9dcf12faf230ddd9ad)

UK figure is more like 98% but the 20% get the headlines and chatshows.

Ms Bunten died at 49yo. I think she had some extenuating health circumstances that may have lead to regrets besides not keeping optimum employment. I do enjoy fussing with retro games and appreciate Ms Bunten's significant contribution to computer games.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on December 16, 2013, 02:18:13 PM
I would like to see some kind of essay about those with regrets, telling why/how they made the decision for the operation, and what has caused them to have regrets...the operation itself, expectations of self, acceptance by self and/or others, maintenance issues, unsuccessful outcome, etc.

That would be of more use to us, I think.

While I agree about the value, there is a lot of pressure discouraging those of us who have regrets about SRS from speaking. I've been suspended from other trans supports sites just for having regret and faced efforts to make it that I made the choice to have SRS knowing that the only possible outcome would be this regret, refusing to acknowledge any improprieties by my providers (such as enforcing strict binary gender identifications and femme presentation - that being non-op was not acceptable and lead to issues with HRT access) and the circumstances that limited my options e.g. economic and employment ones during the recent recession impacted the amount of travel I could undertake to find other providers. I grant that I made choices, but to hear some characterize my choices you'd think I had said, "I know this is going to totally screw up my life and I'm going to do it for exactly that reason!" Instead, I attempted to figure out what was the least worst.

I had SRS on May 14, 2013, and deeply regret it. I did it due to pressures from my providers to include it in my transition and to have access to updated legal ID documents. I very much needed those things, but I equally needed my body to not be changed as it was by surgery. Additionally, before I even scheduled surgery I had shared with my providers, in response to their questions, my concerns about the potential to have numbness for many months, be anorgasmic, etc., and had them minimize those concerns in the strongest possible way; I was told that such things never happen with modern SRS techniques and that none of their patients in 15 years of treating trans women had ever had such. I realized too late they said such things to persuade me by way of allaying my fears, leading to me having very unrealistic expectations for my body post-SRS. Additionally, there were factors that simply weren't predictable or expected.

I did go into SRS with some doubts, but I had little time to figure them out. I only became aware of my doubts less than one month before my surgery date and I was unable to sort through them in time to feel I could rationally apply those feelings to the decision I had made 9.5 months earlier. It was only after I had cleared the last hurdle - that I was paid in full and there was nothing in the way - that I was able to stop fighting my gatekeepers and just be; to truly feel what I wanted and feel that transition was on my terms and not their's.

The effect of the treatment I'd had with therapists and endocrinologists (multiples of each professional) was that I intended to ask Dr. Brassard for the no-cavity option but was too afraid to actually do so. I felt certain that if I had I would be denied SRS because I had expressed an unusual desire for my own body. That's what I had endured for the nearly 19 previous years that I was in transition just to be allowed access to (begin and continue on) HRT.

Agent_J Thankyou for coming forth and being so honest. Your a brave soul to do such things. And I'm sorry it did not work out. I have always been on the fence about srs and if its something I could do and I just can't do it.

Quote from: Agent_J on January 08, 2014, 02:18:35 PM
I realized too late they said such things to persuade me by way of allaying my fears, leading to me having very unrealistic expectations for my body post-SRS.

I wonder whether they actually believed the things that they were telling you? As I don't want to be banned (again), I won't say why I believe this might be the case.

I share Lana's sentiments regarding the sharing of your personal SRS story. While I absolutely think it's vital that people are offered positive support and reinforcement, this should not come at the expense of doubts being quashed. I can totally identify with you about feeling pressured to continue down what is often presented as an inescapable route to transition paradise.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on January 08, 2014, 08:27:46 PM
I wonder whether they actually believed the things that they were telling you?

I can only speculate. Considering so much of what they asserted, though, I could go either way - either they didn't but were invested in the classic gatekeeper approach (and trying to keep it alive in the modern day - it does exist but is often dismissed because it had to adapt slightly) or they did because none of their clients ever dared tell them otherwise for exactly the same sort of fears that sent me to other ways of getting HRT, e.g. using my GP to refer me to an endo of whom my therapist disapproved because she had made it clear that she would only support my transition if I stayed with the one to whom she originally referred me.

Quote from: Agent_J on January 08, 2014, 09:07:44 PM
I can only speculate. Considering so much of what they asserted, though, I could go either way - either they didn't but were invested in the classic gatekeeper approach (and trying to keep it alive in the modern day - it does exist but is often dismissed because it had to adapt slightly) or they did because none of their clients ever dared tell them otherwise for exactly the same sort of fears that sent me to other ways of getting HRT, e.g. using my GP to refer me to an endo of whom my therapist disapproved because she had made it clear that she would only support my transition if I stayed with the one to whom she originally referred me.

I think there's some truth in what you say.

Agent_J's experiences are an important contribution to the site.  We have a few detransitioned (or "retransitioned") members here.

In my opinion, no one should be coerced into medical procedures they do not want.  SRS is a huge step and one must be thoroughly prepared.

Agent_J, my hope for you is that you can reconcile your gender identity to the body you have now.  Regrets are something, I hope, will fade in time for you.

Kia Ora,

It's important to seriously think about things especially leading up to what can describe as  'life changing surgery'...However when it comes to regrets, nobody will know until the deed is done (you and your penis part ways)...Until then no amount of discussion about the "unknown" is going to make it known...Unless that is, one consults a fortune teller's crystal ball (well if one believes in that sort of thing)...

Metta Zenda :)

While that is true, pressure from providers who take a binary approach - that one must either transition with SRS (often referred to as "fully" by these providers in my experience) or not transition at all does not help. For me, it lead to me locking the doubts I felt deep within my psyche because they were an obstacle to any transition progress, such as access to HRT in the first place.

I will admit that there was a point when I realized I had doubts, and it was before I had SRS, however, it was extremely late and I didn't have enough time to fully explore the feelings. The event that unlocked the mental cell in which those feelings had been incarcerated came when Suzanne at Dr. Brassard's office confirmed that I was paid in full. At that moment there was no longer anything that could present an outside/third-party obstacle to my access to surgery and, for the first time, I had the freedom to engage my doubts. That point came about one month before my scheduled date, though, which is little time, particularly with a busy period at work, all that goes into preparations for surgery, and that canceling at that point would mean losing over $10,000 (the deadline to cancel and not lose that much was five weeks earlier.)

A lot happened to me over the years that lead to me locking away those feelings. At one point I had a therapist attempt to have me committed for being trans (she declared that it made me a danger to myself and/or others.) Later, my access to HRT (both to start it and to continue to receive it) depended on having no doubts and the 30 minutes of questions about my feelings of transition by my endocrinologists at the appointments every 1-4 months showed me that I had to be extremely careful to not give even the slightest hint of doubts on pain of HRT being immediately denied.

I regret it too. And I've been crushed in the process. I'm in a depressive bout and trying to feel better. What the f, things can't really get any worse :( I started transition over a decade ago in 2002, had FFS (and was living full time) in July 2005 and had SRS in December of 2006.

I have no issues with passing or any major social problems. I also have no desire whatsoever to detransition, I was never a man socially nor did I want to be one. I transitioned at 22, but that was after high school and college amounting to showing up to class with absolutely no social interaction whatsoever. I was playing video games online where everyone assumed I was female (or I told them as such). That was the extent of my social interaction.

For the longest time I moped and despaired and cried and cried and cried after my surgery. It's so bizarre... my wife (who is also trans) says I am a very special snowflake when it comes to gender variant people because I want a penis. I never felt right after SRS and that was 7 years ago. I finally sought out having a phalloplasty, but that too crushed me because surgeons either refused to speak to me or said they wouldn't perform surgery on me or wouldn't perform surgery on me unless I transitioned back to male.

I finally got a surgeon to agree to perform surgery on me, and I had surgery last May. Dr. Miro specifically. That was quite an experience because while Miro and the younger doctors on his team treated it like nothing, there was certainly some awkwardness around some of the older docs and staff (most of the nurses were cool though as well). Well, that was all well and good as I would finally be fixed up - but no, things had to go awry, despite being young and healthy, the surgery failed because I got DVT in the grafted vein. Two emergency repairs to save the phallus were attempted but it didn't work out. Supposedly there is about a 1-4% risk that any "free flap" surgery will fail. FML.

I can supposedly get surgery again THIS May instead for a second attempt / second graft. I tried to ask Miro about some prep stuff and he told me to speak to two of the other docs. One hasn't returned my emails in the past so I'm hardly bothering with her at the moment. The other didn't respond to my email either, though he did before my first surgery. So there's that, I don't know for sure when/if my surgery will be, and well, most of all I'm scared to death of another flap failure. And I'm also scared that even if they could try a third time (and I'm not even sure they can) I couldn't psychologically take another year long wait of "what if". And two failures would really make me think I'm doomed to infinite failures. Miro told me months after my surgery in New York that the DVT could have lead to a pulmonary embolism and killed me. That... does not scare me in the slightest, what scares me is being doomed to have the wrong body. In fact, I wish for it to happen if my surgery fails again.

My heart aches for those of you who feel that SRS has failed you. I agree that there's too much emphasis on what is between your legs in today's modern American society.  Why the hell can't we be who we are without so many others being concerned how we "do it"?
I understand that how we are seen and social interaction has a lot to do with how we look or present. Many of us use our physical presentation to cue others how we wish to interact. Perhaps that is what gender means. The social cues we use to interact and what kinds of responses we wish to get from others.
This is where I am in examining what gender means to me. It is especially amplified now that my child is exploring her place in the world.  Gender is one of the most overt ways of expressing how we wish to interact. It is the shortcut we use. I doubt it will ever go away. It is an important part of individual identity.
Physical body parts should not be... until we wish to be physically intimate.  Then that is a private choice.

Hi, RoxanneN. I believe we have corresponded before.

For me, I don't wish to attempt phallo because I don't believe it will help. What I psychologically need is my body as it was before, which no surgery can restore.

I think tbunny has it very well. Unfortunately, I live in a state and had to deal with providers who severely conflated to the two, or, even, viewed SRS as the definition of transition and that the rest was mere window-dressing.

I was, by all accounts, quite well adjusted, to the point that my providers remarked (albeit with what appeared in hindsight to be some disdain) that my social transition/RLE had gone exceedingly well. I did things that were beyond what their other patients had done, such as be recruited by and land a position with one of the top employers for my field.

However, even they kept finding ways to make issue of the fact that my legal ID still claimed male, as I reside in a state that requires proof of SRS to update that document. There were also pressures like constant changes, both up and down (yoyoing, if you will) of my HRT, all extremely repetitive, which was having profoundly negative effects on me and pushed me into depression and to the brink of suicide even while they saw my transition as being "too easy." I was dealing with providers who claimed to not be gatekeepers and to have over a decade of experience supervising transitions, but who persistently misgendered me, etc. The experience is verifiable, so it can't be unintentional lack of knowledge. Instead, I'm left with the fact that therapists and doctors in my area believe that compelling an individual who feels at peace with their genitals as they already are into surgery to alter them, even at the risk of inducing dysphoria over that, is somehow a legitimate medical/mental health concern.

Quote from: Agent_J on January 21, 2014, 10:37:58 AM
Hi, RoxanneN. I believe we have corresponded before.

For me, I don't wish to attempt phallo because I don't believe it will help. What I psychologically need is my body as it was before, which no surgery can restore.

I think tbunny has it very well. Unfortunately, I live in a state and had to deal with providers who severely conflated to the two, or, even, viewed SRS as the definition of transition and that the rest was mere window-dressing.

If this is what doctors and shrinks are thinking how can trans people be out there blasting Katie Couric a new one because she wanted to ask about genitals? This is the world we live, where everyone is worried about what is everyone else's pants. I don't see that changing any time soon, if ever.

You know when I was in Montreal in 2003 I had a chance to talk to Doctors Brassard and Menard who was there at the time about regrets. He told me a few tales of people who literally jumped off the gurney on the way to the operating room and left never to be seen again. This operation is not for everyone. The ones who do want it (like myself) are a minority in a minority.

Thanks for sharing your story. In my transitioning process I had the chance to meet one person who de-transitioned in person and it was great to understand where the issues and pitfalls are/were. I was able to balance out my own goals my meeting and talking to successful people and those who the process did not benefit from. It was how I was able to figure out my own spot in the world a little better.

I tell people not rush this surgery, take their time. I had 2 years to think about it over and over. In the end I knew it was still the right thing to do.

Not that Zumbagirl said this, but something she did say touched on an accusation often made of me by other trans people - that I rushed through transition.

My transition, from my first therapy session in which I said, "I'm trans, need to transition, and want to start HRT," was a little more than a months less than a full 18 years (I began at the start of Summer in 1994 - the first shrink tried to have me committed as a danger to myself and/or others for being trans.) From starting with the therapist who would actually refer me for HRT to starting RLE was 2.5 years (I was yet to get effective HRT - that was a while longer.) RLE to SRS was 25 months and 5 days.

The problem very much was the process - to get through it I had to bury my doubts so completely that I wasn't even cognizant that I had them. The first point that I felt them was 4 weeks before SRS, and by then I was awash in a ton of emotions. Two thoughts kept me going to it: "is this just pre-surgery jitters?" and "if I cancel, what is Plan B?" I truly believe that had I decided to cancel, and ignoring the loss of a large sum of money for doing so at that point, my situation with the gatekeepers would have gotten much worse. They had a problem with me being a lesbian who was not generally femme (they dismissed the times dressed in a femme manner as "inauthentic" - all about them much?) and who rides motorcycles, how much worse would it have become if I made it so clear that I wouldn't have a surgery they considered a mandatory part of transition?

Incidentally, I had attempted to relocate, but there were two problems. First, my wife, who has generally been very supportive of my transition, opposed relocating because she believed it would irreparably harm her career. Second, it was during the recent recession and I work in IT; there simply weren't many opportunities. I did get interviews but the competition was stiff and I had made a strategic error early in my career of going into academic IT (I had a heavily outdated skillset, which I'm currently working to rectify.) I also did attempt to locate providers in other areas, including using contacts in places like Atlanta. I was never able to get names from those people until after I had SRS for reasons I don't understand. I can only speculate that they felt it was my own unreasonable expectations or mistakes that caused the treatment before SRS but afterwards felt it was an authentic problem.

Quote from: Agent_J on January 21, 2014, 10:37:58 AM
Hi, RoxanneN. I believe we have corresponded before.

For me, I don't wish to attempt phallo because I don't believe it will help. What I psychologically need is my body as it was before, which no surgery can restore.

Yes we have. For me, phallo probably is not perfect, but it looked pretty good for stage 1 and I could even painfully feel it in the hospital bed. It will not be the same as before, but if Miro can repeat the results from before (and the surgery actually WORKS / the flap survives) I think I will be ok.

That's for me though. What you must do is your path, this is my path though.

Quote from: Agent_J on January 21, 2014, 10:37:58 AM
I think tbunny has it very well. Unfortunately, I live in a state and had to deal with providers who severely conflated to the two, or, even, viewed SRS as the definition of transition and that the rest was mere window-dressing.

I was, by all accounts, quite well adjusted, to the point that my providers remarked (albeit with what appeared in hindsight to be some disdain) that my social transition/RLE had gone exceedingly well. I did things that were beyond what their other patients had done, such as be recruited by and land a position with one of the top employers for my field.

However, even they kept finding ways to make issue of the fact that my legal ID still claimed male, as I reside in a state that requires proof of SRS to update that document. There were also pressures like constant changes, both up and down (yoyoing, if you will) of my HRT, all extremely repetitive, which was having profoundly negative effects on me and pushed me into depression and to the brink of suicide even while they saw my transition as being "too easy." I was dealing with providers who claimed to not be gatekeepers and to have over a decade of experience supervising transitions, but who persistently misgendered me, etc. The experience is verifiable, so it can't be unintentional lack of knowledge. Instead, I'm left with the fact that therapists and doctors in my area believe that compelling an individual who feels at peace with their genitals as they already are into surgery to alter them, even at the risk of inducing dysphoria over that, is somehow a legitimate medical/mental health concern.

Yes it's disturbing that they view SRS as a requirement and that they did that to you. As for your social/RLE transition, I've been fortunate as well. I sometimes wonder if that's why my providers viewed SRS as a "no brainer" for the young transitioner who passes 100% of the time and is while not a model - she is pretty.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 21, 2014, 11:08:16 AM
You know when I was in Montreal in 2003 I had a chance to talk to Doctors Brassard and Menard who was there at the time about regrets. He told me a few tales of people who literally jumped off the gurney on the way to the operating room and left never to be seen again. This operation is not for everyone. The ones who do want it (like myself) are a minority in a minority.

If only :(