Hello guys and dolls,
I just finished watching the stories of Brandon Teena and Gwen Araujo, and it got me thinking.
Do we have a moral obligation to tell anyone we're sexually or romantically involved with our trans status?
I'm talking about other than the obvious safety issues. If our safety were guaranteed in these situations, would we still have a moral obligation to tell?
Now, Brandon's situation was a bit dicey, because he actually fooled girls into thinking he had a penis via darkness and a strap-on. But what about when Gwen performed oral sex on men - the action did not involve her genitals, so did she have a moral obligation to tell them beforehand that she was physically male?
Did Brandon have a moral obligation to tell that he was engaging in sexual intercourse with them via a strap-on?
Now, obviously pre-op and post-op are in different situations regarding this.
Provided safety were not a concern, do pre-ops have a moral obligation to tell?
Do post-ops have a moral obligation to tell?
I'm not talking serious relationships here, just dating and random sexual encounters.
Your thoughts. Thanks.
Nero
ummmm...YES!
They have the right to know what there getting into before they actually "GET INTO IT!"
Afterall, no matter how you see it...you are dealing with that persons sexaulity and how they perceive themselves from a sexual orientation point of view...To not tell is to fall into and live up to that Jerry Springer Stereotype that a lot of straight\normal people have of us.....
Dating well I usually tell everyone of the back before hand ...No confusion...no mistake....no second tthought whining...
but ill leave that to say....to each his own...I just dont like playing games with anyones emotions or there sense of reality
Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM
Do we have a moral obligation to tell anyone we're sexually or romantically involved with our trans status?
Nero
i don't know about you, but i do. i'd really hate to "wake up" in a dumpster.
Quote from: Katia on July 05, 2007, 11:13:57 PM
Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM
Do we have a moral obligation to tell anyone we're sexually or romantically involved with our trans status?
Nero
i don't know about you, but i do. i'd really hate to "wake up" in a dumpster.
Agreed. Personally, I feel an obligation to tell the people I decide to be involved with, less I'd like to risk physical harm. I'm a very truthful person, and as Chynna pointed out, they pretty much have a right to know "what they're getting into" because, you can't really have much of a relationship with someone without being honest to their face. Otherwise, how will our image (the transgender community as a whole) with society improve?
I tend to agree with what's been said so far...
For me I need to tell for a number of reasons:
- I can understand that for many people being intimate with a woman who once had a boy's body may be just too difficult a concept to handle (because of their culture, religion or ignorance) and they have every right to their opinion even if it's difficult for me to accept
- Through self-preservation and a very real fear of violence against me if ever the person found out later somehow and then felt betrayed.
- Out of respect for who I am as an individual and for my life history
- Because when I take someone to meet my close friends and family I want everyone to feel they are meeting someone who loves me and not just some convenient image of me.
MVER XXX
I think there is a moral obligation to tell. It's a matter that is essential to intimacy. I also think there is a moral obligation to tell about STD's (and there is a legal obligation to do so in some jurisdictions). One's sexual orientation would also be an important matter for a partner.
Details of sexual history and past partners wouldn't be quite such a strong obligation, I wouldn't think. It's not an essential, although it can be an intimacy builder.
Dennis
There is no moral obligation to tell , if one is post op.
For pre op, there is no moral obligation for me to tell as long as I am not having sexual intercourse with that person.
I don't believe there is a moral duty to tell people about our medical condition, but I think that it is necessary for me to reveal myself to my b/f simply because my trans status made up an important part of who I am and how I see things.
(In terms of STD, yes, there is a moral obligation to tell one's sexual partner)
Quote from: regina on July 06, 2007, 04:19:02 PM
But Nero's question was... is it a moral obligation to tell? To be fair, really fair, there are many things we don't tell our lovers. How often do people not tell others about STDs, other relationships, sexual history, their bisexuality, problems with the law, even children we might have? My question is, why do we place such a heavy value on revealing gender transition so far above those other things? Why do we place such a heavy value on something that would, specifically, be upsetting to a straight male, even to the point of many people dismissing the violence some of them display after finding out (the current case in Palm Beach is now another one of those). There are a lot of societal values put onto this scenario (specifically a straight male with a transwomen).
I don't think we're placing gender transition any higher than the others, they all pretty much have the same value. My take on this Regina, is if someone in any kind of relationship can't be honest about
anything, be it their trans status, STD's, kids from a previous relationship, ect...then there's something very wrong with that relationship IMHO, and it won't last for very long. Honesty and communication are key in any relationship, and without those two ingredients...well...just look at the almost 60% divorce rate here in the states.
There needs to be more honesty in this world. It may be upsetting to a straight individual, but if you choose to be honest with your partner about your trans status and he/she flips out or reacts negatively...do you really want to be with that person?
On a personal note, as far as STD's are concerned...I'm going to take myself and any future partner I have to go get tested before any sexual intimacy. That's not an option, it's a
requirement. :P
My fiance knows because he knows me from before. But being post operative and "more" than passable, I wouldn't tell otherwise just as I wouldn't tell that I had chicken pox when I was two.
Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM
I'm not talking serious relationships here, just dating and random sexual encounters.
Or even... what if some guy asks a pre-op m2f to... well... dance at a wedding or something? ;)
Sure, it's not SEX, but I can imagine many men not being thrilled to find our they'd
"danced with another man" (in their eyes), especially if their peers find out and make fun of them.
~Kate~
They can think whatever they want about me. Do I see myself as "a man"? Bloody hell no! It's their issue not mine
I appreciate all your responses, though I have the feeling I failed to convey my question properly.
What I want to know is - aside from the danger aspect, in a casual encounter where you may not know the person's name or ever expect to see them again, is there a moral obligation to tell?
This really doesn't apply to me, as no surgeon is ever coming near my genitals so, everyone I have sexual relations with is going to know regardless. However, I am curious as to the right and wrong, moral aspect of this.
I'm ambivalent on this issue.
On the one hand, (aside from the safety aspect), I can see how a person would feel deceived if this information were kept from them (and again, I'm not talking serious relationships here, but random sexual encounters).
On the other hand, if you are post-op or the sex act doesn't involve your genitals - why is it their business?
Again this is a hypothetical question. If safety were not an issue, and this was a random sexual encounter with a person whose name you didn't know, whom you never expected to see again not a serious relationship.
Does one have the moral obligation to tell?
Like in Gwen Araujo's situation - she was at a party and had oral sex with a few guys. Aside from the fact that it wasn't a smart move and she was murdered for it - was she morally wrong to engage in a sexual act with those men without informing them of her birth gender?
Post-op, If its a random sexual encounter and there's no way he can know (I can even give a false name :-), then I wouldn't tell. Its for sex, the guy doesn't care If I'm a troglodyte or gorg, as long at there is a hole somewhere...
I'd still be carefull about doing that in a place where someone else may know and inform this person later (then it would go back to the security angle).
Quote from: Keira on July 06, 2007, 06:20:20 PM
the guy doesn't care If I'm a troglodyte or gorg, as long at there is a hole somewhere...
lol most don't give an iota :laugh:
Quote from: Nero on July 06, 2007, 05:56:41 PM
Again this is a hypothetical question. If safety were not an issue, and this was a random sexual encounter with a person whose name you didn't know, whom you never expected to see again not a serious relationship.
Does one have the moral obligation to tell?
Like in Gwen Araujo's situation - she was at a party and had oral sex with a few guys. Aside from the fact that it wasn't a smart move and she was murdered for it - was she morally wrong to engage in a sexual act with those men without informing them of her birth gender?
I personally do not engage in "random sexual encounters" for personal moral reasons of my own, so I'm afraid I can't answer this for you Nero. As for it being a moral obligation, that depends on the kind of individual and their personal morals. However, in more broad terms, as I have stated, I need to be honest with others about who I am - in a sexual encounter, or otherwise. I've hid for too long and can't lie about my trans status.
~Fae
For those of you who answered "there is no moral obligation" I would like you to take a second and "flip the script" and put yourself in that awkward situation....
what if you sleep with or had a date with a man who actually turned out was and still is biologically in some way... still a woman? wouldn't that bother you the least bit or at the very least put the idea in your head that "well if they keep this from me what other secretes are they keeping, like there HIV status, hepatitus, etc." ..
wouldn't that make you even the least bit uncomfotable?
Too me... and this is by all means is my lil opinion and im not being judgemental but rather inquizative.....
How can you be so assured of who you are and what direction (or SEX rather) you want to be in life and not feel some sense of morality to be totally honest?
Its "cute" and lovely to be that "real" that no one can tell unless you tell them what you are but at the same time isn't that "realness" truly defined as "BEING REAL"?
or has this girl had one too many cocktail at happy hour?
For myself, and I'm only speaking from my own personal experience, I think that if we intend or feel that any encounter may lead to or is developing into a long term relationship, then we are morally obligated to tell. I can safely say that I have had three post op encounters where I felt that there was a chance that it could develop into something more that just friendship. In each case I sent each individual a letter explaining who and what I was and in the third case I did it in person. Two of the three politely declined to pursue the relationship and the third stood by me and we are still in a relationship.
Personally I feel that any relationship must be based on honesty and respect and if we find it too hard to do that then I don't think we should bother.
Just my thoughts.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on July 06, 2007, 07:01:57 PM
Personally I feel that any relationship must be based on honesty and respect and if we find it too hard to do that then I don't think we should bother.
Exactly how I feel Steph ;)
Quote from: Chynna on July 06, 2007, 06:55:48 PM
For those of you who answered "there is no moral obligation" I would like you to take a second and "flip the script" and put yourself in that awkward situation....
what if you sleep with or had a date with a man who actually turned out was and still is biologically in some way... still a woman? wouldn't that bother you the least bit or at the very least put the idea in your head that "well if they keep this from me what other secretes are they keeping, like there HIV status, hepatitus, etc." ..
wouldn't that make you even the least bit uncomfotable?
Very good question, Chynna.
My answer to whether that would make me uncomfortable or not, depends on the person and the situation.
If it's just sex, and I was attracted enough to their body to get physical, then I really wouldn't give a rat's behind about their history or chromosomes.
Now, if I end up pursuing a relationship with this person, I want to know.
Or if this turns out to be a good friend I just happen to be {insert everyday term for sex here}, I want to know.
In short, if I have any feelings towards this person (even strictly platonic) and I'm doing them, I want to know.
Quote from: Chynna on July 06, 2007, 06:55:48 PM
Too me... and this is by all means is my lil opinion and im not being judgemental but rather inquizative.....
How can you be so assured of who you are and what direction (or SEX rather) you want to be in life and not feel some sense of morality to be totally honest?
Its "cute" and lovely to be that "real" that no one can tell unless you tell them what you are but at the same time isn't that "realness" truly defined as "BEING REAL"?
or has this girl had one too many cocktail at happy hour?
As for that, I doubt I could even be friends with a person who didn't know my biological status. How could I bond with someone who didn't know one of the most basic things about me and my history?
As far as sex goes, it's a non issue as anyone I'm with sexually is going to know I have a female body. If I did have a surgical penis and it looked real, I don't know. I've never had to think about it, because I'm not letting any knives near that area.
Very good questions, Chynna.
Very simply, yes! I'm not concerned about casual friendships, but any relationship that could become intimate should be based on the truth. If things were reversed I would like to know.
Kristi
I don't think its a moral obligation, for me its all practical.
I don't want to be killed or maimed and lying about it increases the chance of this.
My only problem is when to tell, if its casual sex, or a relationship that you know will be short (during a vacation for example). Why would I tell if there is no way he'll know and he just wants sex also.
For a long term relationship, when do you tell? First date, third date, etc.
In modern relationships, sex or high intimity comes pretty quickly and
that means I'd have to tell early if I go by my security first precept.
But, I don't want to share this with a quasi stranger before he even knows me!!
I'm all for honesty, but in time; I feel my practical security concerns are robbing me from
the possibilty of devellopping a normal relationship before dumping this layer unto it.
I do feel its something I'd rather say months into the relationship rather than right away,
and its just the societal undercurrent of homophoby that forces my hand and I resent that.
I wouldnt. Not for what Nero has described.
Quote from: Chynna on July 06, 2007, 06:55:48 PM
For those of you who answered "there is no moral obligation" I would like you to take a second and "flip the script" and put yourself in that awkward situation....
what if you sleep with or had a date with a man who actually turned out was and still is biologically in some way... still a woman? wouldn't that bother you the least bit or at the very least put the idea in your head that "well if they keep this from me what other secretes are they keeping, like there HIV status, hepatitus, etc." ..
wouldn't that make you even the least bit uncomfotable?
Too me... and this is by all means is my lil opinion and im not being judgemental but rather inquizative.....
How can you be so assured of who you are and what direction (or SEX rather) you want to be in life and not feel some sense of morality to be totally honest?
Its "cute" and lovely to be that "real" that no one can tell unless you tell them what you are but at the same time isn't that "realness" truly defined as "BEING REAL"?
or has this girl had one too many cocktail at happy hour?
I love trans guys, I do not judge them at all. But if they still have a vagina, I would discover that during a sexual intercourse. I would be suprised, but I wouldn't be mad in any way whatsoever.
I agree with Regina, I do not believe we have a moral duty to reveal our history, but that does not mean we should not tell.
Nero,
This is a tough one. I have been thinking about it since you posted it. I mean, for the most part I beleive that a person has a right to know. On the other hand we don't tell casual acquaintances personal things about ourselves. So I have two stories to tell.
When I was 19 I was playing late at night in my music studio, which was the entire upper floor of an old department store. It was about 3:00 am and me and my drummer were just jamming when a good friend of ours entered our studio crying uncontrollably. Between sobs he was saying that he had cheated on his wife. "with a dude". He was very distraught. Apparently he was making out with an attractive young woman, that me and my drummer knew to be a transsexual prostitute. He had been attracted to her and made his move not knowing who she was and after making out with her in his car for a while, he apparently reached down to get a "feel" and got more than he was expecting.
He was very upset that she had not told him upfront that she was a preop transsexual. To him, this was having gay sex. Of course we assured him he was not gay and that she was quite attractive and very passable and no fault attached itself to him. So? did he have a right to know or is it "buyer beware"?
The other story is about one of my nieces. She was born with six toes on one foot. At age three, she had it removed and to see her foot now, one would never know she had six toes on one foot. Does she have an moral obligation to tell everyone she dates, even casually, that she used to have six toes?
In the end, I believe this is a question that only each person can answer for themselves. What feels right to them. Because I believe it's a personal choice, I must say there is no "moral" obligation to tell, for those who don't feel one. There is a "moral" obligation for those who do feel a moral obligation to tell.
Simple, we don't all share the same morality, so there can not be a blanket answer.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Nero on July 06, 2007, 05:56:41 PM
Again this is a hypothetical question. If safety were not an issue, and this was a random sexual encounter with a person whose name you didn't know, whom you never expected to see again not a serious relationship.
Does one have the moral obligation to tell?
Like in Gwen Araujo's situation - she was at a party and had oral sex with a few guys. Aside from the fact that it wasn't a smart move and she was murdered for it - was she morally wrong to engage in a sexual act with those men without informing them of her birth gender?
Though I have to admit to not really being one for random sexual encounters myself (heavy petting's fine, but no more than this if I'm not in a relationship that's been going on for
at least a few weeks...) no I wouldn't feel morally obliged to tell someone in this type of situation.
If we'll never see each other again, there's no safety issue and we don't even know each other's names (well, this
really does seem like a
very hypothetical situation to me...) then no I wouldn't feel the need to tell someone and wouldn't feel morally bad for not saying anything. It would be a simple case of two consenting adults giving and receiving pleasure, with no strings and no emotional attachment...
If tonight I met someone in town, we drank more than we should have, ended up in a hotel room somewhere, and then went on to... well you know what, spent the night together, then parted our ways the next morning, then I would feel no need to say a thing. He'd never guess my life history (previous experiences with sexual partners have proved this to me....) and I'd not be looking to build a meaningful relationship with him, so why rock the boat?
MVER XXX
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 07, 2007, 03:07:08 AMWhen I was 19 I was playing late at night in my music studio, which was the entire upper floor of an old department store. It was about 3:00 am and me and my drummer were just jamming when a good friend of ours entered our studio crying uncontrollably. Between sobs he was saying that he had cheated on his wife. "with a dude". He was very distraught. Apparently he was making out with an attractive young woman, that me and my drummer knew to be a transsexual prostitute. He had been attracted to her and made his move not knowing who she was and after making out with her in his car for a while, he apparently reached down to get a "feel" and got more than he was expecting.
He was very upset that she had not told him upfront that she was a preop transsexual. To him, this was having gay sex. Of course we assured him he was not gay and that she was quite attractive and very passable and no fault attached itself to him. So? did he have a right to know or is it "buyer beware"?
I feel bad for both parties, since I would imagine the TS woman was as distraught as your friend. In that kind of situation she probably should have said something
before they got too physical since she was pre-op, regardless of how well she passed. Do you know if he physically hurt her upon getting "more than he was expecting" or if he just left her distraught and upset, but didn't harm her physically? I hope for the latter. :-\
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 07, 2007, 03:07:08 AMIn the end, I believe this is a question that only each person can answer for themselves. What feels right to them. Because I believe it's a personal choice, I must say there is no "moral" obligation to tell, for those who don't feel one. There is a "moral" obligation for those who do feel a moral obligation to tell.
I agree, but I'd also like to add something in relation to your first story. If the TS individual is pre-op then she
does have an obligation to tell prior to any sexual encounter, for her own personal safety so as not to risk harm from the other party(s) involved. To not tell just goes against common sense. ::)
If she is post-op, then I believe it is up to her and her own personal morals.
I honestly don't know. Maybe.
Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM
I'm not talking serious relationships here, just dating and random sexual encounters.
I'm not going to talk about moral obligation here. I'm going to talk about the way my psyche works.
"Random sexual encounters" don't work for me. Or for alot of people, I assume. Before I can have sex with someone, I need to feel a certain level of attraction for that person. And if I allow it to happen, it always results in an emotional connection with that person. And then there is a serious chance that I am falling in love with that person.
Now, if that happens first and I tell the person second (or he/she finds out some other way), I run a serious risk of ending up with a broken heart. And selfishly, I don't want that, so I perfer to have that person know before I fall in love.
Quote from: Fae on July 07, 2007, 12:38:22 PM
...
Do you know if he physically hurt her upon getting "more than he was expecting" or if he just left her distraught and upset, but didn't harm her physically? I hope for the latter. :-\
...
No, he did not harm her in anyway. He was embarrassed and ashamed of himself, first for cheating on his wife and secondly for not knowing what he was getting himself into.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Immediately after my surgery, I did have a few relationships where I did not tell anyone. I felt no moral obligation... after all, we were having immoral sex! ;) In the beginning, I had no concern over it. As time progressed, I became better grounded in what I believed a relationship should be for me. I knew that my past was part of my life and I could never learn to ignore it.
When I fell in love, prior to any heavy petting or intimacy, I did tell my lovers. Both accepted me. Both offered to marry me. One was a VP for a small start up company called Cisco. The other was a poor construction worker with nothing. Guess who I chose? Yup, "money ain't everything"! We've been very happy together and we will never be parted for any reason except death. It's been the best 17 years of my life.
Cindi
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 07, 2007, 03:48:03 PM
"Random sexual encounters" don't work for me. Or for alot of people, I assume. Before I can have sex with someone, I need to feel a certain level of attraction for that person. And if I allow it to happen, it always results in an emotional connection with that person. And then there is a serious chance that I am falling in love with that person.
Same goes for me, there are four things I need before I will engage in a sexual act with someone: Love, Trust, Honesty, and Passion. Sounds picky, but that's the kind of girl I am ;)
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 07, 2007, 08:18:27 PM
Quote from: Fae on July 07, 2007, 12:38:22 PM
...
Do you know if he physically hurt her upon getting "more than he was expecting" or if he just left her distraught and upset, but didn't harm her physically? I hope for the latter. :-\
...
No, he did not harm her in anyway. He was embarrassed and ashamed of himself, first for cheating on his wife and secondly for not knowing what he was getting himself into.
Love always,
Elizabeth
That's
really good. I've heard too many stories of women in our community getting hurt once they were found out during or after a sexual encounter. It's good to hear a story where that didn't happen, but like I said I still feel bad for both parties because it must have been emotionally painful.
Errr Yes and No
I have had some casual flings over the past few years, with men, who I didn't tell and they never knew. To be honest most guys are just focused on getting in your pants in a quick fling and not much else.
However, I would look to tell any person that involvement involves beyond a fling. Trust, respect, truthfullness and to be loved for the person I am, are my requirement for any long term relationship.
If that person cannot handle the truth, then they are not my partner to be.
That will be their loss.
Buffy
Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 07, 2007, 09:53:41 PM
Immediately after my surgery, I did have a few relationships where I did not tell anyone. I felt no moral obligation... after all, we were having immoral sex! ;) In the beginning, I had no concern over it. As time progressed, I became better grounded in what I believed a relationship should be for me. I knew that my past was part of my life and I could never learn to ignore it.
When I fell in love, prior to any heavy petting or intimacy, I did tell my lovers. Both accepted me. Both offered to marry me. One was a VP for a small start up company called Cisco. The other was a poor construction worker with nothing. Guess who I chose? Yup, "money ain't everything"! We've been very happy together and we will never be parted for any reason except death. It's been the best 17 years of my life.
Cindi
:) :) :)AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW :) :) :)
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: regina on July 08, 2007, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: Fae on July 08, 2007, 12:23:12 AMI've heard too many stories of women in our community getting hurt once they were found out during or after a sexual encounter. It's good to hear a story where that didn't happen, but like I said I still feel bad for both parties because it must have been emotionally painful.
The term "found out" implies that they were somehow "fake women." I have a big problem with that thinking. As I view it, it's a form of internalized self-hatred and transphobia. Honestly is just as important to me as it is to you, but honestly motivated by shame and colored by societies' ignorant view of what being trans is... no, I don't think that's healthy. Again, much of the hurt and shame surrounding "disclosure" comes from our culture's and our own transphobia. Were we to really deal with how we feel inside about ourselves and experience ourselves as women, not a facsimile, then much of the shame and fear we experience around this would be hugely diminished. Just my little opinion.
Gina M.
I'm sorry Gina, I'm still getting used to the vocabulary so as not to offend anyone. Sometimes it's a little hard because all of us in the community have different views, and I do believe that as transpeople we often fight with ourselves and each other, in addition to society and I wish that wasn't so. I wasn't trying to imply that those women were in any way "fake," what I meant to say was that those women were found not to have been born genetic women. None of us have to feel ashamed about being trans (even though society tells us we must)...
I still think that being honest is very important, to me anyway.
This is indeed a tricky issue, but I do still feel we have a moral obligation to tell, yes, with all of the baggage that this terminology implies. If a person does not want to have a physical relationship with us, then I do not believe that what I am about to say necessarily applies.
In the world in which we live, I would want to know the honest truth about my sexual partner's history. Life and death sometimes depends on it. I'm not saying that a TG person is any more likely to contract a disease than a non-TG. In fact, I suspect (but don't have any statistics one way or the other) that the truth may be just the opposite because of sexual performance issues some of us deal with. However, we still live in a world where honesty in sexual relationships is expected, and is arguably more important than ever. I want to know about my partner and believe my partner has a right to know about me.
Honesty is part of maturity. I will never be ashamed to be a woman. Far from it. And I am the last one who would ever want to put a Trans sign on my head and advertise to the world. Sex, though, is an optional activity. I hope we have learned in our society that it is not shameful, but that it does require a certain level of respect for our partner. If that respect is not returned, whatever may be our history, I hope that we have enough respect for ourselves to walk away from the encounter. Those who want to have sex with a partner as a validation for their own person will invariably become ensnared by that need for outside validation. If we cannot tell the truth to our sexual partners it means that we have already rejected ourselves.
I believe that it is true, especially in the TG world, that we are so afraid of rejection. We want acceptance at all costs, and somewhere we got this idea that secrecy will aid in achieving that acceptance. I know I am guilty of that. But in the end, we have still not been accepted if we let the person believe a lie about us. Some imaginary person has been accepted and we have been cheated of the acceptance that likely could have been ours if we have been truthful. If we do believe (and personally, I do) that a TG woman is every bit a woman, why would we not want to celebrate that with a person we might want to become intimate with? If they walk away (or worse), they are not someone who is worthy of our bodies, especially given the extreme steps some of us must take to make them correct.
In short, if a person accepts herself (or himself) then it should not be impossible to be honest. If we cannot be honest perhaps we are not mature enough to be having sex. It is only within the context of honesty that sex becomes a meaningful expression between two caring individuals.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Kristi, all that's well and good, but would you want to share
this before kissing... First date, second, etc.
I think that this goes beyond honesty about sexual history,
who tells there sexual history in the first dates.
We, because of homophobia, have to be guilted in thinking
what we delay telling (not even hiding) is much worse than
anything else that can be hidden.
It often makes me sick to think that I'd have to disclose to
people I barely know, like I had some very bad disease or
I was so infamous that they would be bound to find out
about me sooner or later.
Quote from: Keira on July 08, 2007, 03:46:23 PM
Kristi, all that's well and good, but would you want to share this before kissing... First date, second, etc.
Keira,
Great question. I don't claim to have the definitive answer. Personally, I do not put those things in the same category as a sexual relationship.
As you can probably tell, I am not one interested in casual sex or one night stands. The stakes are WAY too high. So for me it would be pretty evident when full disclosure would need to take place. And chances are, a wonderful trusting relationship would cause disclosure before anything physical would necessitate it.
I would never disclose to someone I barely know, primarily because I wouldn't be having sex with them.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
QuoteThe term "found out" implies that they were somehow "fake women." I have a big problem with that thinking. As I view it, it's a form of internalized self-hatred and transphobia. Honestly is just as important to me as it is to you, but honesty motivated by shame and colored by societies' ignorant view of what being trans is... no, I don't think that's healthy. Again, much of the hurt and shame surrounding "disclosure" comes from our culture's and our own transphobia. Were we to really deal with how we feel inside about ourselves and experience ourselves as women, not a facsimile, then much of the shame and fear we experience around this would be hugely diminished. Just my little opinion.
Gina,
I agree that internalized transphobia and shame can be an underlying aspect beneath someone's willingness for disclosure or not. I'd personally feel the need to be honest with any potential partner, not this is currently an issue for me. I've been with my partner for 11 years, and am not looking for anyone else ;D. FWIW, my partner already knew about me being trans when we met, as we met through a mutual friend.
One important issue to bring up in this discussion though is that transpeople are often murdered or violently attacked because of who we are, and so I can envision situations in which someone might not feel safe to disclose hir status.
zythyra
What I meant Kristi is that for many, not divulging before kissing (full mouth on mouth, not a peck) is in the same category morally as not telling before sex.
Kissing usually happen pretty early even in the most reserved of relationships.
I mean, where does it stop, is simply dating that guy without telling him in a sense dishonest because he would never have gone out with me otherwise and thus I "tricked" him.
Anyway I look at it, I don't feel good about disclosing early.
I will only do it for safety's sake that I do so, but I resent tht homophia
forces me to do so, I would have preferred disclosing later.
Quote from: Keira on July 08, 2007, 04:26:44 PM
Anyway I look at it, I don't feel good about disclosing early.
I will only do it for safety's sake that I do so, but I resent tht homophia
forces me to do so, I would have preferred disclosing later.
On this point we are in full agreement. I hope what we do now will make this kind of action unnecessary in the not-too-distant future.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
In someone else opinion being born a male might be considered a "horrible scary secret" No matter how much of a woman you actually are...or how many operations you had to biologically become one. The fact remains your past cannot be changed and for some people that reality of the past might have a significant bearing on the present
So for someone to say "its not a big deal, or relavant" is to look at the encounter with that person from a one sided point of view wouldn't you say?
Sure, it may not be a scary secret to you but take into consideration the other individuals feelings on the matter.
one of the most fragilist things is a man's ego (especially a straight one's) just marinate on that thought for a second.
I just think as a "group" we have an obligation to take other people's thoughts into consideration when interacting with them on a intimate physical level.
Afterall we ask no less of society and people in general when they deal with us! That they take our thoughta and feelings of being "out of gender" into consideration. So why can't or shouldn't we take the intiative to do the same?
Quote from: regina on July 08, 2007, 09:34:44 PM
I'm assuming they're responsible adults who are interacting with a women they have decided to have sex with. I don't owe them my life story, they're responsible for their own decisions. Why make excuses for them?
Well I guess this is the crux of the matter. If you don't mind not having all of those other stigmas you mention withheld from you, I guess it is fair to make this statement in return.
I understand and respect your view but could never personally operate with that particular morality. It's just not for me. But I wish you luck and safety.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Well, I'm not very fond of "casual encounters", so in my case, I don't think I would face such a situation. However, I believe that a person who is romatically involved with you deserves to know the truth about your past history. It's just a matter of honesty, plain and simple.
tink :icon_chick:
The reason I think there is no moral obligation is because I don't think being transsexual is a moral issue. If we don't believe there is anything immoral about being transsexual, than there is no moral obligation to disclose that history to another person.
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 08, 2007, 11:43:17 PM
The reason I think there is no moral obligation is because I don't think being transsexual is a moral issue. If we don't believe there is anything immoral about being transsexual, than there is no moral obligation to disclose that history to another person.
Personally I don't think there's anything at all immoral about being a woman who was once a transsexual boy, however just like Tink I do think that it's best to try to have relationships that are based on honesty.
I simply wouldn't feel comfortable with myself if I tried to construct an imaginary past for myself that I never actually had and I can't begin to imagine the energy it must take to feed the lie.
I went to a boy's secondary school, I was forced to share communal showers with boys after physical education classes (yuck! disgusting thought!), I didn't learn netball until I was 23 unlike my girl friends, I never got to experience my first period, my mum never took me shopping for a trainer bra, etc. etc.
These are all facts that mean I'm a slightly different kind of woman today to the average woman I see around me; facts that don't make me immoral, but do make me
me.
And then of course sometimes I can feel sad and vulnerable just because I was born trans. For example, my not having children is a pain I carry with me most days... Thank goodness there are people close to me in my life that understand the reasons for my pain and are there to help me.
Basically, any (non-casual) partner of mine needs to have access to all the facts, so that they can love me and support me as I fully deserve.
MVER XXX
I have no opposition to telling, I just have an opposition to tell that early like its a make or break thing. Nobody seems to be commenting on that point.
Telling at some point, and having to tell up front, first, second, third date, before the first kiss, etc... If you have to tell before sex, why not before kissing, don't you think the guy will find less problematic to have kissed a "former man", if that's the problem.
If it was not for society's homophobia, telling would assuredly be an entirely optional thing, like many other things of our past. But, because of that context, it has some "other" layer that I don't like at all. I don't feel like a woman at all when I have to tell a guy on the third date just as we're really getting into it, knowing each other, that hey, by the way, I'm an ex-guy... Of course, I could push out intimity until the 10th date... But very few do that and again why should I...
How do you know in the first few date that some guy you meet will end up being a long term relationship. Do you really want to open up that much to a quasi stranger.
For me its not a moral issue at all, I'll tell about that eventually because its a part of me; others may not tell, I don't see that as bad either if its not relevant to their current life.
Anyway, I am so afraid of always being alone. Because I've already been alone all my life, that these issues really make me boil. So pardon my being redundant.
I'm in an interesting situation in that I have not even dated before, so I am entirely inexperienced in that regard. I would like to start having a relationship of some kind, but due to my inexperience I'm not really sure how I would go about talking about my past.
I agree that relationships should be about honesty, and I don't know if I could ever not tell someone I was in a relationship with. On one hand I think if I tell them earlier in the relationship, then I will know if that person is even worth still seeing. On the other hand I fear that if they react poorly, then there is the chance of violence, or at the least someone who I now know I didn't really want to know, knows about my past.
I probably worry too much, but I think its a valid worry :-\
I am a newbie when it comes to relationships :P
Quote from: Kristi on July 08, 2007, 03:32:46 PMIf we do believe (and personally, I do) that a TG woman is every bit a woman, why would we not want to celebrate that with a person we might want to become intimate with?
Well, if it's a serious relationship, I see your point. But, just random sexual encounters or even booty call regulars - if a girl is post-op, I can see why she wouldn't tell. Because too many people out there will never accept that a person who once had a penis is a woman, no matter if she looks female in every way. Even some people who respect transpeople still see us as men who decided they wanted to be women and vice versa.
Many people will never accept that I am a man without a penis, but being intimate with what many would consider a 'masculine woman' doesn't have near the homophobic baggage attached to it as being with a woman who 'used to be a man'. So, I can see why some transwomen would rather not tell to ensure that they're seen as the woman they are by the person they're in bed with.
It was some time before I revealed it all to my hubby. We had a wealth of experiences while dating where he was able to get to know me.
Cindi
Ya want me to write another book? I should, I suppose... all about my dear one, Brick.
Okay, I've put up something that I've written that is already too long for the forum yet too short to properly tell the story. Still, I hope you like it. It is in three parts:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15809.0.html Part 1
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15810.0.html Part 2
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15811.0.html Part 3
I hope it helps one of you out there by sharing my story.
Cindi
I am not saying that people shouldn't tell, I am simply making the point that I do not have a moral obligation to reveal my trans status. Yes it is a good to tell, and I would not want to be with someone who doesn't know but I don't have a moral duty to out myself.