This could be an incendiary topic but it is also too frequently something newly out, non binary and transitioning people face. I have felt upset about a sister transwoman who needed to tell me what she thought of my presentation. We had never met before and were in a tavern last week with several other transgender people including my supportive adult daughter and a MtF friend. It felt intense but definitely not pretty and i guess that was her point. I'm not a pretty girl, don't wear make up and am generally happy about being unapologetic and out there. None of us are representative of all trans people or the gods special spokesperson. I'm not looking for sympathy, I can handle this trifle.
When we are first coming out, exploring or trying to conquer our fears we look to others as mentors and allies in solidarity. My experience is sadly not new to many of us. This is the same judgmental attitudes I experienced for decades as an out and active Bi/queer person when gay and lesbian people dismissed me as a wannabe, indecisive, partner stealing threat. With so many mind readers why do we still need therapists! ??? Just kidding. Still all of my best friends are either LGBTQ or supportive and none of us speak for any single one of those groups either.
I am taking my own advice about not letting the masses define me and nobody needs to let one person wreck our day. Fortunately I also have a strong circle of support and ok self esteem. I try to envision the quack quack flak as water off the proverbial ducks back, just trickling into the pond. A dear cisgender girlfriend wrote today; "People who cannot handle ambiguity are prone to ideological purity, which means trouble." We don't need trouble from our trans brothers and sisters. Elitism is not helpful and unless someone has toilet tissue hanging from their behind, negative comments about style or presentation are unwelcome. It is a challenge for me to accept someone who really thinks they need to intercede as a "public service." Just the self anointed judges we don't need IMO.
I feel we would all do well to remember how individual and unique our lives are. Commonalities are not commandments folks. We actually do get some choice in our presentation and if we want to be truly free and liberated it is essential that we allow others those same freedoms. My perceptions of others is not as valuable as their own self image and not called for unless asked.
Stepping down from my soapbox; This moderated venue of virtual reality is generally not a hurtful place and I am so very grateful that most really are here in a supportive and caring role. Thank YOU!
Quote from: Tessa James on January 02, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
I feel we would all do well to remember how individual and unique our lives are. Commonalities are not commandments folks. We actually do get some choice in our presentation and if we want to be truly free and liberated it is essential that we allow others those same freedoms. My perspectives of others is not as valuable as their own self image and not called for unless asked.
Stepping down from my soapbox; This moderated venue of virtual reality is generally not a hurtful place and I am so very grateful that most really are here in a supportive and caring role. Thank YOU!
There are some around here who don't seem to get this..
So true.
It has been said that there are as many ways to be trans as there are transpeople.
The fact is that we are far too often damaged or broken people who must face the often disastrous consequences of being true to ourselves. The likelihood of any of us suffering from anxiety, depression or suicidal thoughts is off the freaking chart. This is why we need to be excellent to each other at all times. Who wants to be the one who gave somebody the final push over their cliff?
its a pissing contest. Best to not fall into the trap and just learn to blow right by those sorts of comments and opinions. I figure sooner or later, they're gonna hit an electric fence anyway.
Tessa, hugs and kudos.
I felt during my life I never "fit" anywhere. Definitely not the "male" role. I hope to be out this year and as such I will not have a
female stealth look. Instead, I will look trans*. Being myself will be the point. I will be in the gayborhood and as such will have some
acceptance when about. The stress level will be at maximum and if that happened to me I would be very hurt.
Quote from: Tessa James on January 02, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
This could be an incendiary topic but it is also too frequently something newly out, non binary and transitioning people face.
I've been there. I've had a trans woman tell me I need to get facial surgery, another who told me I needed to wear heels (seriously? I'm 5'10" and the tallest woman I know.) People have told me I needed makeup, eyebrow waxing, and a bunch of other stuff.
I feel sorry for those folks. Anyone who is forced to go through life not knowing when to keep their mouth shut and their criticisms to themselves, can't have had an easy life.
I don't think this is an incendiary topic. But I do think it is one worth talking about in the community more. Allow me to quote a small excerpt from a hateful email sent to me by my number one hater:
"I have heard you say in meetings in the past how you don't like being around Transwomen, or Crossdressers and that you only see yourself as Trans Sis. How can you say you are for "Unity", when you feel that way. I don't go around wearing a t-shirt saying "I'm Trans", but one thing I know that I will never forget who I am and where I came from and I support Unity for ALL !!!"
It is true that I often feel out of place in trans* gatherings and that this reality has, at times, caused me to walk away from them quite literally in tears wondering why the trans* community seems to have no place for me. It's also true that I have absolutely zero understanding of what crossdressing is about. And it's true that I tend to fit in and socialize most easily with cispeople. How these things turned me into someone who doesn't like trans* people, I don't know. But I do know that all trans* people are different. And this community has to have room for everyone.
Another quote, this time from my TDOR remarks this year:
"So I say again . . . it does not matter who you are. It does not matter if you are from Maryland, DC, Virginia, or the moon. It doesn't matter if you identify as a transman, a transwoman, genderqueer, a gender ->-bleeped-<-, she male, crossdresser, cisgender ally, detransitioner, retransitioner, multiple transitioner, a person of trans experience, or a person who doesn't quite know exactly what they are. It doesn't matter if you are a person of color or lily white. It doesn't matter if you pass or if you think passing is a bad word. It doesn't matter if you are "out and proud" or if you are deep in stealth, living your life by blending in, or if you are out there living in fear. This community is big enough to embrace you—all trans* people of all kinds and all of our allies too."
I published an op ed on a similar theme shortly after TDOR. As a consequence of those two things, I have been under attack for about a month now by one of the state's major prominent trans* advocacy organizations. They have blasted me on Facebook, in the press, and I've had people call me to let me know that their Executive Director, a prominent activist who is well known nationally, phoned them to tell them that I suffer from severe mental illness and am erratic and a "broken shell of a human being."
It's been like that since I first came into the local community not too long ago. The same person who made the phone calls attacked me during support meetings (!) for the fact that my male presentation was too androgynous. Then when I started seeing falsified documents show up in my case files at work with my name on them and started having to take some pretty potent antidepressants just to cope with how I was being treated at work, she told me I probably just had a bad attitude and found it impossible to believe that any sort of discrimination was going on. I felt like a little bug getting squashed by this nationally renowned figure. Now that I no longer speak to this person, I have had others critique me for "bending to pressure to conform to gender expectations" and "being too much like a woman." And, of course, I still have people like the one I quoted above who seem to think I am some kind of traitor.
These things hurt. And I'm not unique in being on the receiving end of them. I've seen them happen a lot to others. I've been the person who interceded to stop them happening to others. And there have been times when I am ashamed to say that I was too tired, too wounded, or otherwise in a space where I found myself not speaking up for others to whom it was done.
If I hated trans* people after all of this, I suspect that people would forgive me. But I don't. I just hope that people listen to what happened to me and see what happens to others and learn to make the trans* community safe for all trans* people. A place where there really is room for all of us. And the only way I know to do that is to fight exclusion by embracing. We each can fight against the put downs and the exclusion and the in fighting by just refusing to participate.
I believe that many of the people who exclude other trans* people! who find them to be not trans* enough or too trans* or whatever else, do so out of their own wounds and insecurities. So the best way to fight against it is by preventing wounds where we can, healing them where we cannot. So the best weapon against someone like that truly is to walk up and give them a big hug.
Quote from: kelly_aus
There are some around here who don't seem to get this..
Yes, we have seen more than few related threads over time
Quote from: Jill F on January 02, 2014, 06:18:27 PM
Who wants to be the one who gave somebody the final push over their cliff?
OMG that is a poignant reminder of how we might irreparably harm someone with WORDS.
Quote from: suzifrommd
I feel sorry for those folks.
your compassion is admirable and needed
Quote
its a pissing contest. .
And who lifts there legs anymore but male dogs? ;)
Quote from: Cynthia Michelle
Being myself will be the point.
You are so sweet I only wish I could be there to hold your hand
Quote from: ThePhoenix link
So the best weapon against someone like that truly is to walk up and give them a big hug.
Far better than fanning the flames and kind advice.
Thank you all
All things trans* were a much smaller pond way back in the early 1990s. When I went back into denial I pretty much cut myself off from anything to do with it. Dipping my toe back into it in April, especially with the internet there to allow for the dissemination of everything and anything, really shocked me. Certainly there was a very strident and robust discussion about what "constituted being trans*" that I was utterly unprepared for. Terminology and concepts had evolved well beyond anything I knew of in 1990...and at first the variety of gender nomenclature kind of made me despair. "Can't I just be me?" I wondered. Anyway, I've decided to stay away from the more militant and angry and judgemental stuff, just isn't my cup of tea! :)
I don't care about my "transness" as far as "I'm more trans than you". I always thought that was the dumbest argument ever. Yeah, let's argue about something that a lot of people hate us for. Yeah, that's really bright. ::) I've said it over and over: You lock a "proud" more-trans-than-you type, a CD, a Andro chick, a Non-op and a Pre-Op in a room full of bigots and they won't give a damn about who did or didn't do whatever. They will hate all of them equally. But people still want to flog this damn dead horse over and over. Hell, the horse is decomposed at this point!
What people think of you (and others) says much more about them than you. When somebody looks down on somebody else, you see their insecurities on full display. When somebody is constantly exuding negativity, they are showing the world their dark heart. What comes out of people betrays what is inside them.
Anyway, one thing I've learned, and the experience of transition really helped me get this, is that people are just mirrors. We look at others and see ourselves, and we hate and love in them the things we hate and love about ourselves.
I guess all I mean is you shouldn't take anything anybody says about you to heart because they aren't actually talking about you, they are talking about themselves. I don't know if that makes sense..
You ladies are being waaaaay too reasonable. If this was anywhere else on the internet this thread would have ignited into a full on flame war by now. ;)
Must be why I like Susan's so much!
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 02, 2014, 08:32:39 PM
All things trans* were a much smaller pond way back in the early 1990s. When I went back into denial I pretty much cut myself off from anything to do with it. Dipping my toe back into it in April, especially with the internet there to allow for the dissemination of everything and anything, really shocked me. Certainly there was a very strident and robust discussion about what "constituted being trans*" that I was utterly unprepared for. Terminology and concepts had evolved well beyond anything I knew of in 1990...and at first the variety of gender nomenclature kind of made me despair. "Can't I just be me?" I wondered. Anyway, I've decided to stay away from the more militant and angry and judgemental stuff, just isn't my cup of tea! :)
I remember those days too. It was a different world and ways of thinking have come a long way since then. But a lot of people from those days are still around and some if their ideas haven't changed as much. Maybe there is a generational component (as in generations of transpeople, not just age) to the way people think about who is trans* and who is not and who is too much so or not enough? It seems like age and when a person came into the community has a lot to do with it in my experience.
Yeah. i have noticed the more strident people seem to be older. Younger people seem to not care as much. Btw there are offenders on both sides of the issue, just throwing that out there.
Anyway, I think people that don't get very wrapped up in how other people live their lives are probably more actualized and happier/healthier.
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 02, 2014, 08:32:39 PM
All things trans* were a much smaller pond way back in the early 1990s. When I went back into denial I pretty much cut myself off from anything to do with it. Dipping my toe back into it in April, especially with the internet there to allow for the dissemination of everything and anything, really shocked me. Certainly there was a very strident and robust discussion about what "constituted being trans*" that I was utterly unprepared for. Terminology and concepts had evolved well beyond anything I knew of in 1990...and at first the variety of gender nomenclature kind of made me despair. "Can't I just be me?" I wondered. Anyway, I've decided to stay away from the more militant and angry and judgmental stuff, just isn't my cup of tea! :)
I really appreciate your comments, and this entire topic!
The highlighted question, above, rings true with me, because of my non-binary identification. Peek in on the "androgyne" topics some time. We are, as a group or mini-community, dealing with those issues all the time.
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 02, 2014, 08:32:39 PM
All things trans* were a much smaller pond way back in the early 1990s. When I went back into denial I pretty much cut myself off from anything to do with it. Dipping my toe back into it in April, especially with the internet there to allow for the dissemination of everything and anything, really shocked me. Certainly there was a very strident and robust discussion about what "constituted being trans*" that I was utterly unprepared for. Terminology and concepts had evolved well beyond anything I knew of in 1990...and at first the variety of gender nomenclature kind of made me despair. "Can't I just be me?" I wondered. Anyway, I've decided to stay away from the more militant and angry and judgemental stuff, just isn't my cup of tea! :)
Y'know I feel the same way that you do Grace. In 20 years things have gone from bad to worse. People are so judgmental of us and they critisize us so much before we even say anything because of who we are. If poepel were to become more educated on us and havea little more compation I think they'd be more tolerant for us.
I've been told going to the punk rock festival wasn't the sort of thing a "real transexual" should do.I think you can guess my reply!
Rock on Girls!
It is important to remember that Susan's Place is an inclusive community and that "More trans than you" attitudes are greatly frowned upon
Everyone is welcome :) Unfortunately some folks do need to be reminded of that from time to time
Glad to have you all here
Hugs
V M
Quote from: big kim on January 03, 2014, 02:11:25 AM
I've been told going to the punk rock festival wasn't the sort of thing a "real transexual" should do.I think you can guess my reply!
My goth/punk trans friends will all laugh at this. What the hell do "real transsexuals" do anyway? I just do pretty much everything I used to do, but I'm much happier doing it. And I've been to plenty of shows.
Quote from: Jill F on January 03, 2014, 03:16:58 AM
My goth/punk trans friends will all laugh at this. What the hell do "real transsexuals" do anyway? I just do pretty much everything I used to do, but I'm much happier doing it. And I've been to plenty of shows.
Same! After the initial brush-off-all-masculine-features-and-interests phase I swooped back to everything that I loved pre-transition, and I am much the same person. I am still just as nerdy and geeky as I always was, and I retained all of my interests regardless of how masculine they might seem to others.
In the end, life is a pursuit of happiness and that goes hand in hand with the path of least resistance. People operate in different ways, but we all just want something to feel good about. It is unfortunate when you hear of someone getting their kicks from shoving others down, but we have to accept everyone regardless of their modalities. "Let bygones be bygones" definitely applies here even to people. Sometimes you just have to learn from the situation and move on as best you can... path of least resistance and the preservation of one's happiness.
Personal opinion, every one is more trans than me, I don't accept the label. If someone really needs to feel that way, tis fine, long as they keep that opinion to themselves.
Quote from: big kim on January 03, 2014, 02:11:25 AM
I've been told going to the punk rock festival wasn't the sort of thing a "real transexual" should do.I think you can guess my reply!
That is just bizarre! I'm not sure I want to know what they thought you should be doing instead... and I'm sure you didn't bother to ask anyway!
Quote from: big kim on January 03, 2014, 02:11:25 AM
I've been told going to the punk rock festival wasn't the sort of thing a "real transexual" should do.I think you can guess my reply!
I've had people say similar things when I said that I liked Death Metal. "That isn't very feminine." ::) Give me a break. I guess I should tell the people in Mythic, Nuclear Death, 13 and Derketa that what they are doing isn't very feminine and they should cease what they are doing at once! :D :D
Quote from: Jennygirl on January 03, 2014, 03:37:23 AM
Same! After the initial brush-off-all-masculine-features-and-interests phase I swooped back to everything that I loved pre-transition, and I am much the same person. I am still just as nerdy and geeky as I always was, and I retained all of my interests regardless of how masculine they might seem to others.
You go through that phase where you have to figure out what about your old life was and was not pretense. I think that is why there was that compulsion to reject everything remotely masculine? I have noticed the same thing though, that old interests have come back now. Not everything, but a lot of things. Plus, I have a lot of new "feminine" interests that I was afraid to have before, cause of how fearful I used to be of giving myself away. So I feel so much more like a real, actual person.
I hated that stage of figuring out which parts of myself were part of the facade though, it was very uncomfortable knowing that I didn't know what was real.
Pffff damn elitists , we are family for the love of god!
I guess it cant be helped ,,, people seek conflict in everything...
For me we are all super awesome
Quote from: FalsePrincess on January 03, 2014, 11:19:14 AM
For me we are all super awesome
Well, I'm extra super-duper-mega-ultra awesome, so THERE! :P :D
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on January 03, 2014, 11:22:22 AM
Well, I'm extra super-duper-mega-ultra awesome, so THERE! :P :D
Im more super hyper ultra mega awesome than you! >:(
( :laugh: )
kinda like this... ;)
Meh...I'm suppose that I am just ultramega OK. :D :D
Nothing to add here but love, all of you above are awesome in my book!
Quote from: Tessa James on January 02, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
This could be an incendiary topic but it is also too frequently something newly out, non binary and transitioning people face. I have felt upset about a sister transwoman who needed to tell me what she thought of my presentation. We had never met before and were in a tavern last week with several other transgender people including my supportive adult daughter and a MtF friend. It felt intense but definitely not pretty and i guess that was her point. I'm not a pretty girl, don't wear make up and am generally happy about being unapologetic and out there. None of us are representative of all trans people or the gods special spokesperson. I'm not looking for sympathy, I can handle this trifle.
When we are first coming out, exploring or trying to conquer our fears we look to others as mentors and allies in solidarity. My experience is sadly not new to many of us. This is the same judgmental attitudes I experienced for decades as an out and active Bi/queer person when gay and lesbian people dismissed me as a wannabe, indecisive, partner stealing threat. With so many mind readers why do we still need therapists! ??? Just kidding. Still all of my best friends are either LGBTQ or supportive and none of us speak for any single one of those groups either.
I am taking my own advice about not letting the masses define me and nobody needs to let one person wreck our day. Fortunately I also have a strong circle of support and ok self esteem. I try to envision the quack quack flak as water off the proverbial ducks back, just trickling into the pond. A dear cisgender girlfriend wrote today; "People who cannot handle ambiguity are prone to ideological purity, which means trouble." We don't need trouble from our trans brothers and sisters. Elitism is not helpful and unless someone has toilet tissue hanging from their behind, negative comments about style or presentation are unwelcome. It is a challenge for me to accept someone who really thinks they need to intercede as a "public service." Just the self anointed judges we don't need IMO.
I feel we would all do well to remember how individual and unique our lives are. Commonalities are not commandments folks. We actually do get some choice in our presentation and if we want to be truly free and liberated it is essential that we allow others those same freedoms. My perceptions of others is not as valuable as their own self image and not called for unless asked.
Stepping down from my soapbox; This moderated venue of virtual reality is generally not a hurtful place and I am so very grateful that most really are here in a supportive and caring role. Thank YOU!
Wow, this is awesome and needed to be said. You should put your soap box to work more often... thanks. :)
A similar thing happened to me a long time ago and although I certainly never dwell on it, I do think of it at times. I was at lunch with a MtF friend who is out and her presentation is now female. Without any lead up she blurts out that I'm not very feminine. Who does that?? She's right of course, I haven't changed from the day I was born, that's the PROBLEM, trust me I've tried! She happens to act a lot more feminine than all the women I know, but it's what she feels is necessary for her at this time in her transition, I would never comment on it to her, how could I really?
Eh, anyway, this was good.
Is there any Irish Spring in that soapbox?
I hope not to offend anyone truly not intended. For me the issue is more along the lines of universal love and acceptance. to see ourselves in each and every one of us . I won't get into my belief other than to say we all come from the same place. This is the same problem human kind has dealt with since the beginning. It's the same as the bully in grade school making my life miserable. To me it just comes down to love. We need to hug a lot more.
Quote from: Nikko on January 03, 2014, 12:37:25 PM
Wow, this is awesome and needed to be said. You should put your soap box to work more often... thanks. :)
A similar thing happened to me a long time ago and although I certainly never dwell on it, I do think of it at times. I was at lunch with a MtF friend who is out and her presentation is now female. Without any lead up she blurts out that I'm not very feminine. Who does that?? She's right of course, I haven't changed from the day I was born, that's the PROBLEM, trust me I've tried! She happens to act a lot more feminine than all the women I know, but it's what she feels is necessary for her at this time in her transition, I would never comment on it to her, how could I really?
Eh, anyway, this was good.
Umm, my wife isn't nearly as femme as I am and she was born with two X chromosomes. Unless she has to, she wears baggy t shirts, jeans, and no makeup. She always drives and pays at the restaurant. She also sits like a guy, watches sports, swills beer, belches loudly and swears a lot. She basically mostly has a male demeanor about her. She also very much identifies as female, and wouldn't change that for the world.
Oh thank you so very much you funny, scrappy and loving family!
I laughed till I cried at your joking around and then cried again thinking of the wounds we wear so well.
You really are that mega ultra good!
Hmm.
I think that there's an interestingly fine line between 'helpful advice' and 'outright pressure to conform'.
I've been in discussions with any number of gender queer/CD/trans*/TS people who were unhappy with the reactions that they were getting from society. When I dug a little conversationally into what their goals were for transition or presentation, the presentation that they put forward didn't really serve what they'd like to have done so I have commented on that in those instances. It's never a fun conversation because intent and reality are very dichotomous things, from time to time.
On the other hand, advice of that sort is something that you have to have solicited. If the person is comfortable in who they are and what they're doing, then those comments are intrusive, arrogant, and absolutely out of line.
As for 'more trans than thou' attitudes? *blech* What the eff ever. There have been many instances of that that I've run across. I have no patience with it no matter who it's aimed at.
I do feel that, most of the time, these attitudes are more a way of the person doing a bit of ego-pumping via denigrating someone else. The persons who tend to do it, I've found, are very defensive, generally look and act uncomfortable with who and what they are. Regardless of what their issues are, however, I'll smack them down every time. No one needs to hear that kind of garbage when dealing with issues like what we have to.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 03, 2014, 02:07:26 PM
Hmm.
I do feel that, most of the time, these attitudes are more a way of the person doing a bit of ego-pumping via denigrating someone else. The persons who tend to do it, I've found, are very defensive, generally look and act uncomfortable with who and what they are. Regardless of what their issues are, however, I'll smack them down every time. No one needs to hear that kind of garbage when dealing with issues like what we have to.
Nailed it. I always wonder about the need to validate oneself by invalidating others. That in itself says something about the true confidence level of the offender.
Yes, it kind of boils down to "I'm better than you, nyah-ne-nyah-ne-na-na!"... :P
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 03, 2014, 06:28:32 PM
Yes, it kind of boils down to "I'm better than you, nyah-ne-nyah-ne-na-na!"... :P
Right. Which of course is totally stupid. We all die and turn to dust one day so all of the crap about who is better doesn't matter in the end.
Basically, this type of behavior relates to insecurity, when a person is truly secure and self assured then there is nothing to prove to anyone in regards to anything including themselves
In other words, if a person is actually secure in themselves then there is no need to go on parade and knock others down in order to prove it
There becomes no need for a conceited 'My this or that or whatever is bigger and better than yours' type of thing
A truly secure individual will be happy that things are going well for them and consider how to help other folks without making a 'Broadway production' out of it
Just some of my thought on the matter
Quote from: V M on January 03, 2014, 09:04:41 PM
Basically, this type of behavior relates to insecurity, when a person is truly secure and self assured then there is nothing to prove to anyone in regards to anything including themselves
In other words, if a person is actually secure in themselves then there is no need to go on parade and knock others down in order to prove it
There becomes no need for a conceited 'My this or that or whatever is bigger and better than yours' type of thing
A truly secure individual will be happy that things are going well for them and consider how to help other folks without making a 'Broadway production' out of it
Just some of my thought on the matter
It is just like dudebros getting out that proverbial ruler. I partly figured out that I was probably supposed to be a girl when I was pondering one day why it was that I always refused to participate in such nonsense. Girls don't brag.
Quote from: Jill F on January 03, 2014, 09:19:14 PM
Girls don't brag.
LOL... That could possibly be debated, but for the sake of argument I won't go there
Quote from: V M on January 03, 2014, 09:26:48 PM
LOL... That could possibly be debated, but for the sake of argument I won't go there
I'll take it up just because the idea of fooling one's self is a bit of an anathema to me.
@Jill - Falsely attributing behaviour to gender essentialism won't help ya, sweetie. Girls and women brag plenty and sometimes they're more hurtful and obnoxious about it than the chest thumping/pissing contests that guys do.
Anyone who feels insecure in their position at their current social status will brag and belittle if they don't have a strong sense of humility or if their fears overwhelm their manners and social graces... or if they never had social graces in the first place. I've noticed that the trans ownem who do this kind of thing often have a lot of the same combative traits that many people do in regards to telling people what's the 'correct' way to do things as well as masking their insecurities by self-supporting their own personal opinion of their 'successes' by comparison.
This isn't a male or female thing. It's a human thing and while annoying, is understandable, if not in good taste.
Quote from: V M on January 03, 2014, 09:26:48 PM
LOL... That could possibly be debated, but for the sake of argument I won't go there
OK, girls with class don't brag.
I agree with those who've said it's about insecurity. I noticed the same sort of attitude and approach from the "more trans than thou" women I ran into that I did from people who wanted to convince me I had to get a better job, buy a nicer house/car, or have kids. :) Basically trying to establish that they'd been more successful than me b/c they weren't happy with their own lives.
(I never wanted to be high femme, and there are plenty of cis women who don't do the full-on hyper-feminine thing. Occasionally I still run into someone, cis or trans, who assumes that that means I'm not "serious enough." Too bad; they can either broaden their horizons or be ignored.)
QuoteI agree with those who've said it's about insecurity
I do think that's a lot of it, pretty easy to understand how this would occur. I'm sure some of it is driven by having perhaps a little too much self-esteem. I also think some transwomen may have developed a very narrow ideal of what it means to be a woman. I suppose this is why we need counseling. ;)
I don't feel there's a huge difference between men and women personally.
In my eyes, the only reason to transition is to be true to yourself, whatever that may be. Some people are more feminine than masculine and vice versa. It's irrelevant in my book. However, I won't lie and say that I'm not confused by some transwomen who are ultra masculine in their personality and presentation. It's cool for everyone to be themselves, but I find it hard to personally understand those types. Still, that is more confusion than judgement on my part. To be honest, someone who went through the struggles of being trans should no better than to judge someone for their gender presentation. The reason I'm transitioning is to feel liberated and be able to live out my dreams. It's about my happiness and comfort level. If that doesn't fit into someone else's agenda, then I could care less (well, I sort of do, but I'm working on not caring, lol).
Tessa, I read your post with rapt interest. During my questioning phase, I saw many expressions on the transgender spectrum. It demonstrated that I was not alone. There were also those who felt superior to the others; something I picked up on early. It's sad that we have to deal with the negativity of others from the outside. When it comes from some in the trans community it can be disconcerting.
Tessa, you feel comfortable as you are and that's important. How others feel about it is immaterial. Those people who heap their negativity on you are, in many cases, still dealing with their own issues. Don't let anyone pigeonhole you into what they think you should be.
:)
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell
Hmm.
I think that there's an interestingly fine line between 'helpful advice' and 'outright pressure to conform'. I have no patience with it no matter who it's aimed at.
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It can be fun to share tips about dressing, hair and any number of presentation related things but as you point out "when solicited." I continue to work on being patient with others and myself but not interested in the "how much can I take" endurance thing.
Quote from: Nikko on January 04, 2014, 12:32:44 PM
I do think that's a lot of it, pretty easy to understand how this would occur. I'm sure some of it is driven by having perhaps a little too much self-esteem. I also think some transwomen may have developed a very narrow ideal of what it means to be a woman. I suppose this is why we need counseling. ;)
I don't feel there's a huge difference between men and women personally.
I agree Nikko and know I have to continue working on my own insecurities. At some level my insecurity is out there if a stranger can upset me. I also agree that many of us have that "narrow ideal" where ambiguity is unwelcome. And those supposed differences between men and women? Well we pretty much obliterate that line in my book.
LtL and Gennee you remind us of the foundational right to transition IMO, to be true to ourselves.
Thanks all
Quote from: Nikko on January 04, 2014, 12:32:44 PMI also think some transwomen may have developed a very narrow ideal of what it means to be a woman.
That is certainly apparent in many cases! I watch trans folk discussing everything from how women walk to a supposed love of shoes and I chuckle at such 'canned' and shallow stereotypes. Like every other woman, being a woman is just
who you are and the rest of it is about finding your own path and becoming a full and complete human being.
Quote from: Northern Jane on January 04, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
That is certainly apparent in many cases! I watch trans folk discussing everything from how women walk to a supposed love of shoes and I chuckle at such 'canned' and shallow stereotypes. Like every other woman, being a woman is just who you are and the rest of it is about finding your own path and becoming a full and complete human being.
Exactly. I couldn't give a damn about shoes, make-up or any of that junk. All of the obsessing over how you "should" act is really stupid at the end of the day. I'm just me and that's it.
This is one of my big pet hates of trans-social media and forums.
The amount of times I see a topic or post where someone is saying "I've had female orgasms all my life" or "I've always sat down to pee because it feels right" is amazing.
Talking with an online friend, we've both stated that if we had taken another path and not started HRT and had SRS we would be fine, but not as happy as we are now.
I look back on before I came out to my mother, there isn't much I do differently to before.
I still love sport, in fact I would say a little more, i still have male friends, I still have female friends.
I still love photography, I still love movies, I love tech as well, I'm half geek & I've learned how to drink beer, something I never did before HRT.
There are times when I will go weeks without a drop of make up, I wear jeans most days.
I mentioned earlier in the topic, that I am part of the non-binary community. I really dislike the gender expectation "straightjacket."
I have a feminine side. I have a masculine side. Sometimes, I am at a loss of how to properly express either. But I want my repressed "girl inside" to live and breathe.
My feminine side has more to do with relationships, feelings, empathy, and compassion. I am trying to learn about the exterior things which can help me with that. My friend, Sarah7, who is like a role model and big sister, I thought had the right approach.
It's not about the trappings of femininity. It's about being yourself and being happy with who you are. That's why I enjoyed Nicole's comment about jeans and no make-up. I'll never be a cute girl, except in my dreams and aspirations. But, maybe, I can better express my femininity, and be a better person for it.
Quote from: Nicole on January 04, 2014, 09:56:16 PM
There are times when I will go weeks without a drop of make up, I wear jeans most days.
I remember when I started my transition. I was consumed with the idea that I had to try make up, skirts, all that crap. Well, I tried it and I discovered a few things: Make up is friggin expensive and is a pain in the ass to master. It didn't make that much of a difference to me, not in my eyes anyway. Skirts were annoying and the sizing drove me insane. When I was out and about, I would study what other women wore (I did the same thing in my pre-teen years) and I found that unless they worked in an office or were getting dolled up to go out for the weekend, most dressed pretty casual. Plus, I discovered that....wow...there's all these racks of women's jeans, women's sneakers and I didn't need all of this girly crap because it felt fake on me. I honestly believe that if I had the guts and the luck to transition as a child, I still would have dressed the way that I am now. I just feel more comfortable dressing super casual.
Quote from: Northern Jane on January 04, 2014, 07:33:27 PM
That is certainly apparent in many cases! I watch trans folk discussing everything from how women walk to a supposed love of shoes and I chuckle at such 'canned' and shallow stereotypes. Like every other woman, being a woman is just who you are and the rest of it is about finding your own path and becoming a full and complete human being.
I feel like trans* people get exposed to much of the same social learning about the opposite sex as a cisgender person would! even if they are learning it from the perspective of the wrong sex for them. So transwomen, for example, learn what men are taught about women. Since most men are taught some strange and shallow things about women, a fair number of transwomen learn those strange things and then they go into transition thinking that those things are what women are like. The reverse is true of transmen. So buying into those stereotypes has a lot to do with that prior socialization and the things that many/most miss out on while growing up.
The extremely masculine presenting transwomen that someone else mentioned may also be experiencing something similar.
As with all rules, there are exceptions. Some just take right to a new role. But for the rest, I think that learning the social expectations that go along with a new gender role takes time and even ah be something people don't want to do.
I'm sure this goes without saying, but the fact that some trans* people may be more or less conforming to social expectations does not make anyone else's identity more or less valid.
Quote from: Jamie D on January 04, 2014, 10:14:49 PM
I mentioned earlier in the topic, that I am part of the non-binary community. I really dislike the gender expectation "straightjacket."
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When we do the work to liberate ourselves from that "given" straightjacket it seems, to me, a sweet opportunity to avoid the full tilt expectations of the binary other. Some may be uncomfortable on the teeter totter but do we want to trade a mandatory suit and tie for a mandatory skirt or dress code? It is a pure joy to dress as one choses and still recognize their genuine self. Understanding, avoiding and working thru gender stereotypes is part of transition and maturation IMO.
Gender identity can be distinct and separate from cultural gender roles or for some, completely aligned. We have plenty of room for everyone eh?