I was just wondering since there's been so much discussion of whether transitioners blend in with out being read . What do you think the percentage of those who transition are able to do so unnoticed by any one else compared to those who may get a quizzical look. Does it really matter in the scheme of things any way, because if you need to do it, you need to do it no matter what.
Hi stephaniec,
With respects to your question regarding percentages, from my experience I'm inclined to think about 5% or less. Blending in, comes from within. If your gender is not expressed from within, irrespective of what you do externally doesn't work.
And yes it does matter. It matters a great deal with regard to creating the necessary self respect, self confidence needed to express yourself completely, with integrity.
Huggs
Catherine
Quote from: stephaniec on January 08, 2014, 10:25:11 AM
I was just wondering since there's been so much discussion of whether transitioners blend in with out being read . What do you think the percentage of those who transition are able to do so unnoticed by any one else compared to those who may get a quizzical look. Does it really matter in the scheme of things any way, because if you need to do it, you need to do it no matter what.
I'm pretty sure that you could chart it as an inversely quadratic function in three dimensions of age, income, and passability with passability increasing with age and income but being almost completely passable before 16 and almost impossible to pass by 60 without major surgery. There are certainly deviations (some 20 year olds are so masculinized that they pretty much *have* to get FFS) but as a general rule, a 25 year old probably has about a 40% or greater chance of passing without issue while a 50 year old has about a 5% chance before FFS.
This is all raw physicality, not taking into account body language and mannerisms.
All that said, I'm pretty sure that if I weren't seamless in the world, I'd be a miserable sot all the time and never leave the house. My ability to be accepted for who I feel I truly am is invaluable to me and probably one of the most precious experiential things I can point to.
idk? i know i never have a problem
As one of the other posters pointed out its a combination of factors including age, finances and genetics. Having lots of money really helps and the surgery they can do now is amazing. But you need the basic body to be somewhere in the female range. Age is more variable. It works best (I think) for the very young and also for the very old. Harder for those in the middle.
Of course I am talking about looking female, not feminine or beautiful. Those two qualities are much more rare and lots of cis females dont have them.
Where I live there are not many trans women that I am aware of. Which is great for me since most people don't know I am trans to look at me. However there are tons of them In Toronto. Then again that being said if they don't know what to look for then you have a better chance just blending in. And because i'm so tall I have seen other tall cis women in my city so thats also not a problem.
I'd recommend going to a shopping mall, just sitting, and looking at women going by.
One thing becomes immensely apparent - the assumption that age must mean surgery actually goes down. I cannot tell you how many women who look 50+ also have some masculine facial features. As menopause kicks in, there are minor changes there too.
Now, having said that, many of those women are not what would be considered beautiful or particularly pretty anymore. But that's age and loss of hormones at work. And this is where FFS can help scads for an older trans woman. In some cases, it can take an older trans woman from being passable to being a beautiful older woman. In more cases, it can take an older woman who cannot pass into one who can.
I will also state two other things - most trans women do not need FFS, but they would benefit from FFS. I plan to do so myself despite passing easily at my age (still part time) and despite friends insisting I look "fine". I tell them it's as much for my own psychological peace of mind as anything else and they say they then understand that.
The second point is that the vast majority of people out there are not looking at every passing human being asking, "Is she trans? Is she? Is she?" Get that out of your mind! If your appearance, mannerisms, dress, and voice all come close to conforming for female norms wherever you live, you are likely to pass just fine. People trigger when something glaring leaps out at them, and I mean glaring, like a good looking transwoman who opens her mouth and speaks in a rumbling baritone.
To Carrie Liz, yes I've seen numbers that 1 in 500 or so are likely to be trans. But I've also seen reasonable estimates that only about 15-20% of those actually transition, for whatever reason. So the actual number on the street is probably closer to 1 in 2500 or 1 in 3000. So not quite as likely as you said but yes, if you work in a metropolitan area and go for a walk at lunch time, odds are pretty good that you walked right past a transwoman somewhere.
The one in 500 number is highly debatable no matter what Lynn Conway thinks. In any case, not all transition, which would also be something interesting to know but hard to determine.
Truth is, people dont walk around trying to figure out who is trans and who isnt. Thats why casually passing isnt all that hard. When things get more personal a thousand little things give people away. Im certain I could pick out a trans woman 90% plus of the time if they were lined up in a random group of females. Little things for the most beautiful, almost none of us have the exact correct proportions of females, not even surgery can give you that. But that doesnt mean we arent often beautiful in our own way, just not precisely in the same way as those born with a female body.
You know, I think this may be the most unhelpful, unsupportive thread I have seen on here in a long time.
Rosie
All I know is I want to give every transperson I see a giant supportive hug.
I know I can't, though. Their privacy matters too.
I dont find anything objectionable in this thread. No one is being attacked personally and this matter of passing is important. For some of us it is THE most important. Its no just about privacy or comfort, depending on where you live it can be about safety. I would also say that most of the comments are fairly accurate and fair. Unfortunately our real lives arent always easy.
I don't know how many blend in. I would guess a minority of transwomen. I would guess a higher number if transmen. I'm not sure how it would work for most other identities.
But what I do know is that there are real advantages and privileges that come from passing well. I think that those who do not pass well are forced to show a lot of courage because of the s*** that other people must throw at them in ways large and small. I think those people in that non-passing situation show much more courage in their day-to-day lives than those who pass very well.
Those who pass well should remember that they do so by virtue of pure, dumb luck. Those who don't pass should be embraced without judgment, shame, elitism, or put downs.
Quote from: stephaniec on January 08, 2014, 10:25:11 AM
I was just wondering since there's been so much discussion of whether transitioners blend in with out being read . What do you think the percentage of those who transition are able to do so unnoticed by any one else compared to those who may get a quizzical look. Does it really matter in the scheme of things any way, because if you need to do it, you need to do it no matter what.
As far as your second question, passing is very important. Even if you do not care, I am sure that being constantly hackle and ogled gets old soon!
Phoenix - No. That is just plain wrong. Passing well is not just pure dumb luck. Thats not nice at all but worse it is incorrect.
Now Im obviously MTF so thats all I can comment on.
There is definetly an element of luck, or i prefer to say good genetics, no question. There is also an element of money, that can be luck or the result of lots of hard work.
But I WORKED HARD, really hard to pass. Hundreds of hours practicing my voice, loosing over 120 pounds, learning how to dress, how to put on make up and a hundred other things. None of that was luck or "dumb" it was pure old fashioned hard work and stubborn determination. If you think loosing 120 pounds and somehow getting anorexic over it is lucky, then you have a strange idea as to what luck is.
Your comment was really unfair and dismissive of those who put immense amounts of time and energy into perfecting their transition. Im mortgaging my house to go to Thailand, the house I worked a lifetime for to finish everything. Worked two jobs a lot of my life. That wasnt lucky either.
If you are one of those who cannot pass or struggles with it through no fault of your mine, you have my geuine sympathy. I know how it feels to stand out. But that does not make it right to be dismissive of others hard work.
Kia Ora,
I think Phoenix makes a valid point....Some of us trans-people are 'naturally' androgynous with features(size, build, bone structure etc) and mannerisms and have no need for expensive surgical procedures-HRT alone seems to do the trick, blending in is done without any real effort, hence "Just dumb luck" or blessed by Mother Nature...
Some, as Amber pointed out, do have to 'work at it' to achieve the desired/same results...
I may not know the percentage of seamless blenders there are, but I do know of two fool-proof ways (running of the gauntlet) of testing ones blendability :
1) Small innocent, honest, children (they say it as they see it) :icon_yes:
2) A gaggle of gossiping trans-women (the most highly trained trans-scanners on the planet) :icon_suspicious:
If one can survive both runs, (more than once) then I'd say you're home scot free...(Been put through the blender) :icon_geekdance: ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
First of all, Amber, nothing I said was an attack on you. I apologize if it came off as me attacking you somehow.
Now on to other things . . . .
I am one of those people that passes well enough (as female) that I actually carry around documentation to prove that I'm trans*. I've been clocked as a cisgender ally enough times at trans* events that it has become a problem for me in my work as a trans* community organizer. Suffice to say that when it comes to being able to pass, at this point in my life I am very lucky indeed (things that help me now have caused me problems in the past). I did not pass as male nearly as well.
But a person who is lucky in other ways can be unlucky in others. For example, I used to work as a lawyer for a solid six figure salary plus five figure bonuses handling complex commercial work at one of the most prestigious and well known law firms in my part of the country. I lost that job for transitioning. I've now been out of work for long enough that it appears my career most likely is toast and I'm in danger of becoming homeless. It's certainly not for lack of effort on my part and I am extremely well qualified. So I can only say I'm pretty darn unlucky in my work.
As for you, it sounds like you are the beneficiary of quite a bit of luck. For example, you have the home to mortgage to pay for surgeries and the travel to Thailand to get them. You had to work very hard at two jobs to gather resources that you're now using, but I'm guessing from what you say that you didn't go through the job loss and unemployment/underemployment that plagues so many in our community. The majority of trans* people I know do not have those kinds of resources available. All the statistics I know of indicate that most trans* people do without many (and often any) surgeries due to lack of resources. You're lucky to not be one of those people. I know plenty of trans* people who lose lots of weight! but their body structure is still just not passable. It sounds like you are not one of those people. You were lucky to have a body structure that made that work.
I could go on, but the point here is that I think being lucky means that your goal is achievable. It doesn't mean that achieving it is easy. In the case of passing, you are lucky because you had what you needed biologically and economically to, with work, get where you wanted to go. In no way am I diminishing the value of your hard work or anyone else.
Although getting where you want to be has been hard for you, I know a great many trans* people who would love to switch places with you. At this point I have easily met and worked with hundreds of trans* people and probably more like thousands. Many find that no matter how hard they work, no matter how much money they spend, and no matter what they try, they still cannot achieve their passing goals.
In short, in my world:
Being able to achieve your passing goals, even if it takes a lot of work = lucky
Being able to achieve your passing goals without little or know effort = the extremes of good luck
Finding you cannot achieve your passing goals no matter what you do = unlucky
Phoenix
Your revised post is a lot more palatable and fair. I never forget that I had good fortune in many ways and I never cease to have sympathy for those with less so. I just wanted to point out that while I had some material to work with things did not exactly come easy for me and there was nothing dumb about it. I understand your frustration though.
On money. Yes I have more than some. But I resigned my job with the family business, gave up an income of mid six figures and by telling my family lost an inheritance - was disowned by my family worth millions. So far as my house is concerned, 20 years ago it was a vacant lot, I built it with the work of my own hands - all of it - including much of the furniture. It was a labor of love. Now I am mortgagig it to pay for surgery. I worked weekeds and holidays for most of two decades to build it so I am fortumate, but it was fortune bought at a very high cost.
You have my sympathy. I would never wish for anyone to struggle. But you also seem to have a small chip on your shoulder. Im not the problem, the problem is the cis world we live in who refuse to recognise your talents and abilities just because of gender identity.
What you said was hurtful. It was not a personal attack but in real life some are more fortunate than others and some work hard to take advantage of it. I do have sympathy for you because some work hard and do not do well. If I could change that, I would, but I cant.
Oh yes, by your formula I am lucky. I try to give back when I can, I have given shelter to people in trouble and more than once small sums of money. I volunteer two days a week at a shelter for trans women. If I werent so shy and private I would be a more public advocate but this is further complicated by my very poor health, having nearly died twice in the last 5 years, once from cancer and once from a thrombosis caused by the hormones I took to transition.
I still consider myself lucky though.
Quote from: amber1964 on January 09, 2014, 01:56:53 AM
Oh yes, by your formula I am lucky. I try to give back when I can, I have given shelter to people in trouble and more than once small sums of money. I volunteer two days a week at a shelter for trans women. If I werent so shy and private I would be a more public advocate but this is further complicated by my very poor health, having nearly died twice in the last 5 years, once from cancer and once from a thrombosis caused by the hormones I took to transition.
I still consider myself lucky though.
And I say with all sincerity that I wish you well and hope the day comes where all of us are able to live with dignity and reasonable access to the life saving surgeries we need. I dont expect to live to see it though.
I agree with Liz Marie.
Most people aren't walking around thinking certain woman they see are trans. Most people will tell you they've never met anyone who was trans. And we all know that's laughable. If your not hard or not very feminine looking than chances are no one's paying you any mind. For me it's hard to say because so many woman have perfected their post transition life so well it's hard for other trans woman to be sure either.
I think it's waaaaay easier for transmen to pass. People see facial hair and hear a deep voice and they don't even blink. Also you rarely even hear anything about them in the media besides Chaz Bono. The idea of a transman doesn't cross most peoples minds which helps them to pass even more. My former supervisor was a transman and his guy friend was so passable I was shocked when he told me. Some people are so good that as I said it get's hard for us to tell sometimes. We know what to look for but most of society doesn't. So it's really hard to say.
Trans men do generally pass better. My therapist is a trans man and you would never guess anything else about him. Testosterone overpowers estrogen. Period. But, they dont have the lower cost and success rates with GRS that trans women do. So we all have our own struggles. My therapist who is nearly 60 just underwent GRS and he said to me that one of the things he was looking forward to was the chance to pee standing up, just like other men. I never thought about it before but he has been transitioed 40 years and having to use a stall when other men use the urinals.
Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 08, 2014, 11:10:54 AM
Hi stephaniec,
With respects to your question regarding percentages, from my experience I'm inclined to think about 5% or less. Blending in, comes from within. If your gender is not expressed from within, irrespective of what you do externally doesn't work.
And yes it does matter. It matters a great deal with regard to creating the necessary self respect, self confidence needed to express yourself completely, with integrity.
Huggs
Catherine
What I was tying to get at as with my own self awareness is that I've been a woman since birth ,but I've had the wrong plumbing as another member said, I'm older and transitioning regardless that being said I'm definitely not going to look any thing near what my avatar looks like, Sure I would love to look like Greta who wouldn't. What I'm saying about myself is that I need to do this , Yes it can turn out painful because of uncaring reactions from others ,but for myself I'll do my best and let the chips fall. The integrity comes from me knowing this is who I am.
The problem with percentages is interpreting them. If you can walk by 100 people in a food court, and no one throws their lunch at you, did you pass 100%?
Oh my, it had been a long time since I had been here, and this is the first subject I stumble upon, lol.
Passing?
Or perhaps "being", "saturated", "intrinsically"
How important?
in my own mere perspective I am alive because of it. When I set out on this journey of journeys, the opportunity to become a woman seen in the mirrors edge of societal scrutiny was rather delusional at best. Starting from a bloky body building male of 43 presented countless impossibilities. Yet, delusional me never gave up. A survivor of an attempt, I didn't value life any more then in becoming without any excuses, entirely encompassing, native, true to the extend of my being, a WOMAN.
I have, or at least I feel I had. My peer social circles, those who got to know me since about two years ago, know of me as a woman, never, ever, had there been any question nor suggestion of otherwise questionable intrusion. Those who are simphatetic to my cause who had known me since way back do know of my past, and yet they too see me and know me to be the genuine and true, a woman I always was, however in hiding!
So to answer this complicated question:
I believe that there are way greater number of those who had transition, who never gave in to the pain and sorrow of strive, who pushed the boundaries of relentless pursuit and who now are just another woman out there. How could you tell, you can't!!
And how important was it for me:
Well, lets just say this, had this rebirth into true being wasn't successful, I would not write this here post, I would had been long gone into the statistics of how grave this condition is.
Quote from: innainka on January 09, 2014, 02:29:17 PM
Oh my, it had been a long time since I had been here, and this is the first subject I stumble upon, lol.
Passing?
Or perhaps "being", "saturated", "intrinsically"
How important?
in my own mere perspective I am alive because of it. When I set out on this journey of journeys, the opportunity to become a woman seen in the mirrors edge of societal scrutiny was rather delusional at best. Starting from a bloky body building male of 43 presented countless impossibilities. Yet, delusional me never gave up. A survivor of an attempt, I didn't value life any more then in becoming without any excuses, entirely encompassing, native, true to the extend of my being, a WOMAN.
I have, or at least I feel I had. My peer social circles, those who got to know me since about two years ago, know of me as a woman, never, ever, had there been any question nor suggestion of otherwise questionable intrusion. Those who are simphatetic to my cause who had known me since way back do know of my past, and yet they too see me and know me to be the genuine and true, a woman I always was, however in hiding!
So to answer this complicated question:
I believe that there are way greater number of those who had transition, who never gave in to the pain and sorrow of strive, who pushed the boundaries of relentless pursuit and who now are just another woman out there. How could you tell, you can't!!
And how important was it for me:
Well, lets just say this, had this rebirth into true being wasn't successful, I would not write this here post, I would had been long gone into the statistics of how grave this condition is.
I think that's exactly what it's about
When I had SRS in 1974, 'pass-ability' was a requirement and the first meeting with the surgeon was more like an audition in that the surgeon would not perform the surgery unless he felt you could integrate easily into women's life. Fair or not, that's the way it was and you were expected to do just that, integrate and 'go stealth'. Except for the very few who were outed by the media, nobody retained the trans prefix - why would you? - a normal life is what we all wanted - and the vast majority achieved that.
Being at the point of being 'passable', for me, had a lot to do with genetics and 'attitude'. I was fortunate to have never really 'masculinized' and started hormones early (13, when I could get them). I also grew up with the conviction that I WAS a girl and naturally gravitated to the feminine side of the spectrum so between my physical characteristics and mannerisms/disposition people I didn't know often assumed I was a girl (and people who did know otherwise I think were just confused LOL!) By the time I started college, I simply couldn't pass as a guy even if I tried so by the time SRS became available (age 24) integration was easy because I was already there. With SRS completed, as far as I was concerned, I WAS a girl - there wasn't anything else - you were either one or the other! - and that confidence and comfort in my gender seemed to totally deflect any question.
I KNOW I had an easy time of it (a lot easier than trying to pass as a boy!) but I knew of others who were not so fortunate. By physical characteristics or build (very masculine) or by 'attitude', there were those who had little hope of passing and were therefore excluded from surgery, those who probably never had any trouble passing as male. I felt bad for them but their life's experiences were so different from my own that it was not something I could identify with any more than they could identify with mine.
In my 40 years since SRS I have seen a lot of very (physically) masculine women who could probably "pass for trans" but usually their attitude and deportment and their confidence in their own gender erases any doubt about their being cis-female.
Just my ramblings on the subject ..... ;)
I think attitude and mannerisms definitely play a part but people judge by physical characteristics. I don't care how masculine you are if you are 5'6, 120 lbs. and have 34D boobs and a really pretty face, you will be gendered female. If you are on the border of passing and your face is more andro than femme, then confidence will play a bigger part. I have zero confidence because I hate my itty bitty beard shadow. Yet I still pass to almost everyone and I also have really short hair. Maybe I'm just lucky as someone said before me, but really do you think it was lucky being left out of every single male-oriented game or activity throughout my life and being beat up for being and looking feminine. Cause I don't think that's luck.
Sometimes I dont think I'm trans because people have told me over and over how femme I look and act. And for people this hasn't happened to pre-HRT, it may seem lucky but constantly hearing "is that a guy or a girl" or "he looks just like her" gets old fast. What's great now is I just get treated normal and people like me and I even have a loving BF, so life really is great and I am lucky but that luck went the other way too for a lot of my life. But I'm 30, so I'm youngish, especially for a trans woman.
The other thing is yeah I am passing really well and won't be able to ever pass as male as soon as I get laser. I havent gotten it because what if this is a mistake? What if a year from now my face is irreversibly pretty, smooth and soft and my body is a brick ->-bleeped-<-house that guys drool over, but it turns out that i was wrong. Would that be lucky? Would SRS still be my dream. Or was I just chasing a ghost? None of this will happen though since I know I am intersex or trans or something because I've been like this before i could even think. Really passing, IMO, is all about how many estrogen recpetors you have since they determine how femme you get. The thing is really masculine looking people probably do not have that many receptors. Do they?
Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 10, 2014, 11:17:47 AM
I think attitude and mannerisms definitely play a part but people judge by physical characteristics. I don't care how masculine you are if you are 5'6, 120 lbs. and have 34D boobs and a really pretty face, you will be gendered female. If you are on the border of passing and your face is more andro than femme, then confidence will play a bigger part. I have zero confidence because I hate my itty bitty beard shadow. Yet I still pass to almost everyone and I also have really short hair. Maybe I'm just lucky as someone said before me, but really do you think it was lucky being left out of every single male-oriented game or activity throughout my life and being beat up for being and looking feminine. Cause I don't think that's luck.
Sometimes I dont think I'm trans because people have told me over and over how femme I look and act. And for people this hasn't happened to pre-HRT, it may seem lucky but constantly hearing "is that a guy or a girl" or "he looks just like her" gets old fast. What's great now is I just get treated normal and people like me and I even have a loving BF, so life really is great and I am lucky but that luck went the other way too for a lot of my life. But I'm 30, so I'm youngish, especially for a trans woman.
The other thing is yeah I am passing really well and won't be able to ever pass as male as soon as I get laser. I havent gotten it because what if this is a mistake? What if a year from now my face is irreversibly pretty, smooth and soft and my body is a brick ->-bleeped-<-house that guys drool over, but it turns out that i was wrong. Would that be lucky? Would SRS still be my dream. Or was I just chasing a ghost? None of this will happen though since I know I am intersex or trans or something because I've been like this before i could even think. Really passing, IMO, is all about how many estrogen recpetors you have since they determine how femme you get. The thing is really masculine looking people probably do not have that many receptors. Do they?
i like the way you put this. it was in a nicer way than i could think of. the whole receptors thing is so true and for those that do look really masculine still and not feminizing very well their hope of passing sadly is small without some sort of help. im sorry you didnt get picked for male things and that you did get beaten up. it sucks but you know how school is. a cruel place sometimes. thats why despite what kids/adults may say everyone wants to try hard to fit into some group. im glad things are going better for you now and that your passing good. as far as the might not be trans thing. on one side i would hope your not so you could not have to deal with trans things anymore but on the other side like you said your almost to that looks point of no return so its a tough one. if you discover your not trans srs def wont be a good idea.
Quote from: gowiththeflow on January 10, 2014, 11:34:09 AM
i like the way you put this. it was in a nicer way than i could think of. the whole receptors thing is so true and for those that do look really masculine still and not feminizing very well their hope of passing sadly is small without some sort of help. im sorry you didnt get picked for male things and that you did get beaten up. it sucks but you know how school is. a cruel place sometimes. thats why despite what kids/adults may say everyone wants to try hard to fit into some group. im glad things are going better for you now and that your passing good. as far as the might not be trans thing. on one side i would hope your not so you could not have to deal with trans things anymore but on the other side like you said your almost to that looks point of no return so its a tough one. if you discover your not trans srs def wont be a good idea.
Yea, the genetics plays a big part. I also was in a sense lucky because I have a lot of my mothers features, like small hands and feminine facial structure. I didn't know about the inter sexed condition until coming to Susan's I've never been tested for it ,but it would answer some questions about me physically. This is a tough condition to deal with some times, I just hope the best for everyone dealing with these issues because it can get brutal at times.
I have seen in public, met some mothers in children's school and worked with a few women that you would swear are TS. Some of these I know can't be...because they gave birth!! Some others though I don't know....but I do not suspect anything other than the fact they are a women. Why? because they just are! I don't know what it is but even with my "extra radar" I would be surprised to find out they are TS.
One women I work with has hair on her entire body, talks monotone and fairly lower, is fairly rude and unfriendly, is somewhat over weight, not very attractive and her gestures are not very feminine....but there is still something about her that says female! I think the shape of her body and her thicker hair gender her the most but mostly its how she carries herself....its not like that of a man!
genetics will truly stand as a mountain before anyone whose luck just wasn't there, however!
Hence, FFS.
I do realize that even then, for some even such may not hold a promise of the holy grail, and that is just a shame.
But for most, even the older ones such as my self coming to terms with life altering decision at 43 isn't the end of possibilities. You can still, with the discipline and powerful drive, become anything or at least close to, the woman you always knew within yet forbidden without!
Quote from: innainka on January 10, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
genetics will truly stand as a mountain before anyone whose luck just wasn't there, however!
Hence, FFS.
I do realize that even then, for some even such may not hold a promise of the holy grail, and that is just a shame.
But for most, even the older ones such as my self coming to terms with life altering decision at 43 isn't the end of possibilities. You can still, with the discipline and powerful drive, become anything or at least close to, the woman you always knew within yet forbidden without!
simple cosmetics can do an amazing job
Quote from: stephaniec on January 10, 2014, 03:20:55 PM
simple cosmetics can do an amazing job
sure they can, but gender perception works in a tri-dimensional space, cosmetics usually can further femininity from the front providing already quite fem face, however, masculine lines of the profile, the side view, never fail to undoubtedly point to the genetic gender, what usually is a very strong male lines, remnants of the poisonous compound known as T.....
Makeup can NOT make fully developed male into an image of female, no amount of patch can smooth the skin texture, line with fat, remove thickness. But then, some who are fortunate, like someone I personally know, are so feminine that a little of makeup makes them into a gorgeous female, no kidding! And all this fortune bestowed onto someone who wants to remain just a crossdresser, go figure.....
Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 10, 2014, 11:17:47 AM
... but really do you think it was lucky being left out of every single male-oriented game or activity throughout my life and being beat up for being and looking feminine. Cause I don't think that's luck....
I know what you mean! I was referred to as "it" though most of my childhood and teens. That's just plain cruel.
Quote from: Northern Jane on January 10, 2014, 04:12:31 PM
I know what you mean! I was referred to as "it" though most of my childhood and teens. That's just plain cruel.
childhood and teens , not a pleasant experience for me. My nick name was " tiny tears"
I'd love to hear the answers to this question! Seriously, it seemed completely impossible for me to even consider myself as a transsexual just last year. A BIG part of that was because I was under the impression that "there's no way I could ever be seen as a female by anyone because that's the image I have of transsexuals."
Then again, it's likely that there's little incentive for anyone to do such a study. The general atmosphere seems to be that it's ok even if you fail to be seen as a female, as long as you can be yourself. Which IS a part of the truth: It often is about making the effort. At the same time social pain activates the same parts of the brain as physical pain does.
So if I saw numbers I'd have an easier time making a decision for myself. Even if those numbers are at best subjective and probably biased.
Well lots of good answers here. Most can pass a lot of the time. It all depends on how high you set the bar. Lots of females dont look very female. But if you are talking about 100% of the time, never questioned, no matter what the situation, the percentage is small. With enough money and given reasonable body dimensions its higher. Basically people decide on gender at an invisible level in about .5 seconds. Once they find you odd, or off, its permanent. Once they decide your female, nothing much will change their minds.
There is no debate about right or wrong. Some people cope fine with being read, its not a huge stress to them. A lot settle on a very androgenous appearance so they just kind of disappear. Not obviously either sex. Some cant stand the idea of not being obviously female. So its up to you, knowing yourself. What can you tolerate? What are your own personal expectations and needs?
So, when you say the general atmoshere says its ok, that is a conversation about morality and lifestyles. Most, in a place like this, would say just make yourself happy.
But thats the hard part, knowing what you need to be happy and then critically evaluating if you can meet that expectation. If you want to look like Malibu Barbie, then you better have a body that is capable of getting close to those dimensions. If your happy looking like Rosie O'Donnel then thats different. If you just want to live very quiet and get read as female when casually walking down the street, thats not hard. If you want to work and for close relationships and not get read thats very hard.
So even if you did such a study its worthless. Because it wont help you answer your feelings about yourself or tell you anything about how well you will be able to meet them.
So, I wanted to add. My personal advice to anyone is to not undertake a transition if you can find any other way of living with a reasonable degree of comfort and happiness. Because, this passing bar, wherever you set it for yourself NOW, you might feel very different after a year or two. Sometimes, people feminize very decently but each time they get to a point, they raise the bar a few notches. So ironically, they feel less genuine as they look more genuine. It happens and its unpredictable.
Thats why it says on this site, balanced on the sharp edge of a knife.
Im sorry, there are no easy answers.
Quote from: amber1964 on January 12, 2014, 04:16:30 PM
So, I wanted to add. My personal advice to anyone is to not undertake a transition if you can find any other way of living with a reasonable degree of comfort and happiness. Because, this passing bar, wherever you set it for yourself NOW, you might feel very different after a year or two. Sometimes, people feminize very decently but each time they get to a point, they raise the bar a few notches. So ironically, they feel less genuine as they look more genuine. It happens and its unpredictable.
Thats why it says on this site, balanced on the sharp edge of a knife.
Im sorry, there are no easy answers.
WOW!! I will be honest with you and say I haven't agreed with much of what you have said....but this!!! Is very true!!
Although not much different than the many insecurities many cis women feel also....we will never have the body, hair, looks, cloths.......
There's passing to others and then their's passing to oneself. I basically do not get clocked as anything but a ciswoman in my life. But I look at myself in the mirror and it has taken a couple of years to start seeing female rather than anything other than T-damage. So one can pass and blend in seamlessly with others . . . But yet still see oneself as looking strange. Perhaps because you just get used to seeing yourself one way and it's hard to get out of the habit and takes time to do so. The cognitive dissonance that this creates is not fun.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 10:47:35 PM
There's passing to others and then their's passing to oneself. I basically do not get clocked as anything but a ciswoman in my life. But I look at myself in the mirror and it has taken a couple of years to start seeing female rather than anything other than T-damage. So one can pass and blend in seamlessly with others . . . But yet still see oneself as looking strange. Perhaps because you just get used to seeing yourself one way and it's hard to get out of the habit and takes time to do so. The cognitive dissonance that this creates is not fun.
It's very hard to see your self. I admit I'm lucky with my looks. I have a lot of features from my mother. I could "pass" pre HRT with minimal make up.
I've been on HRT for 4 months and I love seeing myself finally after so long as I truly am. The thing is though I look in the mirror and my perception of my looks can very quite a bit. One day I'll go wow and the next day I wonder why I thought wow. It gets quite maddening at times.
I don't think I pass in public, but whenever I meet people or have to order food, they realize I'm not a cis girl and get embarrassed.
My friends who I met from just prior to starting and to JUST after starting meds say when they first saw me they didn't think I was a guy, but now, after almost 1 yr...they can see the guy in my face that I see everyday...what gives. Kind of weird. Guess because they're in the know and are honest enough to say what they think and not try to say stuff to make you feel better.