If scientists discover that a certain sequence of genes produces the affect of desiring to have the opposite gender and they are able to treat the condition the same way as is used in HRT except with different chemicals and at the same cost as HRT and grs. Do you think you'd have a difficult time choosing between how you wanted to live. sorry for the question I got bored
I don't doubt this will eventually become a reality. I've been thinking of a great sci-fi story along those exact lines for some months now.
For me the answer could be a probably yes, because transition is not "perfect", so the choice is a bit biased, and
I understand that transition will never correct 100% the condition.
If the choice would be between "being without GID and happy to play the role of man" and "become a real female
(period, pregnancy included!)" well... I won't wait a millisecond for transition... even if the transition would
include the total loss of the preceding life (job, family, capital...)
I can't really answer your questions, but for those who are interested, Joseph McMoneagle writes on page 243 in his 1998 book, The Ultimate Time Machine, (which is about remote viewing into the past and future), "You will be able to have your physical sex changed by 2260. This will include hormonal responses, most physical characteristics, and voice alteration. The change will be undetectable." So, there is only a 240 or so years wait, which is a drop in the bucket, historically speaking
I would be less interested in his predictions, were it not that so many of them have already come true, including 911. Interestingly, he writes on the following page, "Between 2015 and 2020, members of a medical sex clinic somewhere in Western Europe will be arrested for genetic manipulation of unborn children. Their goal? To produce a supply of hermaphrodite children to Middle Eastern Brothels." I recently came across information that prostitution in Israel is not illegal. Does McMoneagle's prediction refer to Israel? I don't know, and I don't know if prostitution is legal or illegal in other (Muslim) Middle East countries.
What what gender would these hermaphrodites possess (if produced)? I guess we'll have to wait and ask them, although it doesn't actually say they will ever be produced.
Gene therapy, by one means or another, is already here, and will only become more widespread in capability and use. I would considering using it to change some of my own attributes, depending on what they are, when the therapy becomes available, risk profile, etc.
As for being given the option through gene therapy to alter one's gender, perhaps in some countries it won't be an option, but a forced selection, with no alternative. I think humanity is progressing too rapidly for that to happen, but it's a possibility.
I think I've lived Knowing that I really don't like living as a male .So if given the option I'd be coming from the point of view of knowing that I'm not male mentally and given the choice is mine, I'd have to go with the HRT. It's more that I don't really feel good in the male role and even if those thoughts could change by the new therapy , from my perspective I wouldn't want it. I like the idea of being female regardless of my genes. If that makes sense.
After living so many years as a guy and knowing what it means to be one,,,Id much rather transition...better trans girl than a normal dude...
Actually, there has been research in this area. Interestingly enough, it's not a gene introduction that changes the physical sex in mammals, it's a protein which changes the active/non-active status of a particular gene expression. When introduced in mice in a lab environment, female mice changed physical sex completely. Ovaries turned to testes, a phallus formed and the vaginal canal closed.
It's likely that this would be available to the market in 2017 if it's fast-tracked.
I can't find the article but it was released in 2012 as peer verified results.
I don't want to give some non-existent guy my body, it's mine. To change my mind out for a male one is to murder me.
Quote from: Suziack on January 17, 2014, 04:23:21 PM
"You will be able to have your physical sex changed by 2260. So, there is only a 240 or so years wait...
Did he happen to mention anything about when we'll be able to significantly extend our lifespan, by 240 years or so?
Quote from: stephaniec on January 17, 2014, 01:52:21 PM
If scientists discover that a certain sequence of genes produces the affect of desiring to have the opposite gender and they are able to treat the condition the same way as is used in HRT except with different chemicals and at the same cost as HRT and grs. Do you think you'd have a difficult time choosing between how you wanted to live. sorry for the question I got bored
Do you mean in place of transitioning and staying as you are and having your gender "corrected" instead?
Quote from: Jen on January 17, 2014, 07:46:17 PM
I don't want to give some non-existent guy my body, it's mine. To change my mind out for a male one is to murder me.
The funny thing is, I've wondered why I wanted to be female, but never really wondered why I don't want to just be male. I feel at this point if I shun is completely away that I feel almost as if I am giving up a part of "me".
I don't know what I'd do to tell you the truth.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 17, 2014, 07:21:11 PM
Actually, there has been research in this area. Interestingly enough, it's not a gene introduction that changes the physical sex in mammals, it's a protein which changes the active/non-active status of a particular gene expression. When introduced in mice in a lab environment, female mice changed physical sex completely.
what a brave new world that would be. To choose and change. It would be chaos. I can't wait to see if it comes to pass! :-)
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 17, 2014, 07:21:11 PM
Actually, there has been research in this area. Interestingly enough, it's not a gene introduction that changes the physical sex in mammals, it's a protein which changes the active/non-active status of a particular gene expression. When introduced in mice in a lab environment, female mice changed physical sex completely. Ovaries turned to testes, a phallus formed and the vaginal canal closed.
It's likely that this would be available to the market in 2017 if it's fast-tracked.
I can't find the article but it was released in 2012 as peer verified results.
Could this write up on a study be the one you're referring to?
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/#.Utn3W7QzFEY (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/#.Utn3W7QzFEY)
Quote from: JustEmily on January 17, 2014, 09:32:26 PM
what a brave new world that would be. To choose and change. It would be chaos. I can't wait to see if it comes to pass! :-)
Yes, it would be interesting to see what the world would look like after the dust had settled from that development.
Whait.
Why is Gene in therapy?
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 17, 2014, 07:21:11 PM
Actually, there has been research in this area. Interestingly enough, it's not a gene introduction that changes the physical sex in mammals, it's a protein which changes the active/non-active status of a particular gene expression. When introduced in mice in a lab environment, female mice changed physical sex completely. Ovaries turned to testes, a phallus formed and the vaginal canal closed.
It's likely that this would be available to the market in 2017 if it's fast-tracked.
I can't find the article but it was released in 2012 as peer verified results.
Whether an ethics committee would let this anywhere near a human remains to be seen.. And I have a feeling it won't be good news..
Quote from: stephaniec on January 17, 2014, 07:17:42 PM
I think I've lived Knowing that I really don't like living as a male .So if given the option I'd be coming from the point of view of knowing that I'm not male mentally and given the choice is mine, I'd have to go with the HRT. It's more that I don't really feel good in the male role and even if those thoughts could change by the new therapy , from my perspective I wouldn't want it. I like the idea of being female regardless of my genes. If that makes sense.
+2, again Stephanie you summed it up pretty well to the way I feel about, and would choose concerning this issue. ;)
In the past, I would have easily have gone for it. I had major issues with being trans and have these feelings. It would have been much easier for me to have been a normal straight cis guy; however, that's far from who I am and denying myself is too painful and depressing. Nowadays, I'm quite happy with everything. I've come to like that I'm a girl and that I'm straight. I'm more happy about who I am and excited about the future rather than feeling self hatred/ disgust that I once had. Athough, I'm still having difficulties with the fact that I'm a transwoman and not just a woman. The limitations and the social stigma is hard for me to deal with at times. Maybe this will go away once I move forward and I'm living full time as female. Perhaps being trans will be more like a small tidbit of background info rather than the major dilemma it is now to me?
Interesting study thanks for posting.
Quote from: learningtolive on January 18, 2014, 06:55:20 AM
In the past, I would have easily have gone for it. I had major issues with being trans and have these feelings. It would have been much easier for me to have been a normal straight cis guy; however, that's far from who I am and denying myself is too painful and depressing. Nowadays, I'm quite happy with everything. I've come to like that I'm a girl and that I'm straight. I'm more happy about who I am and excited about the future rather than feeling self hatred/ disgust that I once had. Athough, I'm still having difficulties with the fact that I'm a transwoman and not just a woman. The limitations and the social stigma is hard for me to deal with at times. Maybe this will go away once I move forward and I'm living full time as female. Perhaps being trans will be more like a small tidbit of background info rather than the major dilemma it is now to me?
I think once you walk out that door you don't even think about it because you just are what you always been I don't know I'm not full time , but I'm always with bra on and my clothes are either way. I really don't put too much thought into being other than female even though I still have a lot of work to do . I think if my face goes totally male fail , the thought of being any thing other than female will be non existent.
Quote from: learningtolive on January 18, 2014, 06:55:20 AM
In the past, I would have easily have gone for it. I had major issues with being trans and have these feelings. It would have been much easier for me to have been a normal straight cis guy; however, that's far from who I am and denying myself is too painful and depressing. Nowadays, I'm quite happy with everything. I've come to like that I'm a girl and that I'm straight. I'm more happy about who I am and excited about the future rather than feeling self hatred/ disgust that I once had. Athough, I'm still having difficulties with the fact that I'm a transwoman and not just a woman. The limitations and the social stigma is hard for me to deal with at times. Maybe this will go away once I move forward and I'm living full time as female. Perhaps being trans will be more like a small tidbit of background info rather than the major dilemma it is now to me?
I agree with Steph. Once you walk through that door and put your past life as male to bed you'll be living as who you've always been. I know for me all that flipping back and forth, and I had to work at it to pass as male even before hrt, is what I think caused most bouts of depression I had to endure. Now that I live full time I don't worry as much about "passing" as I'm more confident in who I am. Even without makeup, lol! ;)
I don't know. I'm at a point where I feel comfortable about my passing potential and no longer worry that I will have issues once I get the courage to go full time (I'm considering just jumping in because part time may not really be possible in my case). So yeah I probably will be accepted as female without much problem and being trans will be a background sort of thing. Having said that, I do have issues with being trans. I don't know if my feelings of inadequacy compared to cisgirls will ever fully go away. It won't really be an issue except in the relationship department and my inability to get pregnant. It's up to the future and how things go.
Quote from: JS on January 17, 2014, 07:57:45 PM
Do you mean in place of transitioning and staying as you are and having your gender "corrected" instead?
I'm just saying that you'd have 2 options given the technology. Both would be the same procedure and a life time of either estrogen or the gene modifier, And of coarse with the mtf transition you could still do the GRS. Both would be the same cost with the grs. which way would you treat your dysphoria Would you stop the dysphoria by reversing the gene sequence and remaining male or stop the dysphoria by changeing to conform to your female. Or are their other issues involved besides the physical. For me its has a lot to do with how I conceive my world mentally. I would choose the HRT rather then the gene modifier because I more fit the female expression in society. I've lived male and I know its not who I am even if my dysphoria could be taken a way. Even If my identity would completely accept being male through the modifier. I would still choose HRT because prior to the choice regardless of my physical reality I am far more comfortable In the perspective of me being female.
I too would still choose hrt because based on my life's experiences I'm more comfortable as who I know I am, female. I never worked well as a guy. I love my long hair too much, my soft femminine features, etc., etc., etc., but the main reason is that I'm not male and I'm way too tired of trying to pretend to be something I'm not. So my hrt and complete transition would still move forward. ;)
Quote from: Allyda on January 18, 2014, 03:50:22 PM
I too would still choose hrt because based on my life's experiences I'm more comfortable as who I know I am, female. I never worked well as a guy. I love my long hair too much, my soft femminine features, etc., etc., etc., but the main reason is that I'm not male and I'm way too tired of trying to pretend to be something I'm not. So my hrt and complete transition would still move forward. ;)
Yea, the male thing has bothered me all along. at ever stage of my life it was beating on my head. At point in my life I totally over compensated to try to hide.
Quote from: stephaniec on January 18, 2014, 09:33:37 PM
Yea, the male thing has bothered me all along. at ever stage of my life it was beating on my head. At point in my life I totally over compensated to try to hide.
Many of the younger girls on here probably have a puzzled time understanding why we waited so long to transition. In the era I grew up in predudice still ran rampant and then there were the family problems we all have to deal with. My adopted Mother is a Baptist and my adopted father was catholic. My being a rather shy person didn't help matters either. However my main reason was that it's hard to just sever all contact with the only people you have in your life you can halfway trust and you want them so much to support you so you keep putting it off, little by little hoping that a little more time will bring their acceptance. That is, until you wake up one morning and your 50 years old and they still haven't totally accepted you as who you really are, and realizing the best years of your life are gone. Had I been 30 years younger and was 20 years old now I'm quite confident I would be in my final stages of transition. However acceptance from the general populace when I was 20 years old wasn't what it is now. Yes I whish I would have transitioned long ago. I always knew if I were ever to be happy and live as me that's what it would take. However times were different back then. Now that I finnally am transitioning I'll just make the best of the years I have left to be as happy as I can living as the real me. And maybe my experiences will help someone younger not to make the mistakes I made. Well, I hope so anyway, lol! ;)
If a sequence of genes is responsible for 99.5% of my internal and perceptual self-identity, and changing them this way will affect not only how I view myself but also how I relate to, and interact with the rest of the world... that's a very scary thought. I have always believed that who I am is a more holistic experience. Not based solely on myself, but on the complex interrelations I have with the environment around me - perception, assimilation and insight. A dynamic growth that leads to a synergy. A whole greater than the sum of its parts.
If something like this was hypothetically possible, it would feel to me like trying to re-arrange a jigsaw by replacing only one piece of it.
I'd much rather them locate and rectify the gene responsible for me not liking chocolate, because I hear it's really rather good.
If I've understood correctly, genes aren't to "blame" for gender dysphoria anyways, since it's probably caused by hormonal exposure during pregnancy - it's neurobiological, but not genetic.
That said, a "cure" that would give me a male personality and identity, and hence remove the need to transition, is something I probably would have wanted a few years ago (except I wouldn't have admitted "needing it" back then). But since then, I've realized that such a "cure" would not only be far more invasive than even a lobotomy; it would constitute murder of personality. I would be someone completely else, probably someone nobody would recognize. If such a treatment is discovered, I think it would soon be outlawed, when people realize the ramifications.
I guess it could be compared to a "cure for autism", as commonly debated on forums for Asperger's and other ASDs. That, too, would more or less kill a person. I would sure want treatment for my sensory oversensitivity and crappy executive function, but the syndrome as such? Of course I have days where I wish I was "normal", but people wouldn't recognize me. So there are serious ethical problems with such treatments.
If researchers ever find a way to alter my sex chromosomes and/or grow new organs (or change the existing ones, if they're still there when/if the breakthrough comes), however, I'd go for it without second thought. I'd probably do it even if there was a significant risk of being killed by the treatment. Too bad it probably won't be an option anytime soon.
My only response is, my genes don't need therapy and I have too many to afford all them therapists. I sort of like my crazy genes. Now the sane ones on the other hand.......
Quote from: JS on January 17, 2014, 09:42:26 PM
Yes, it would be interesting to see what the world would look like after the dust had settled from that development.
Read Dr. Suess' The Sneetches! It is one of my favorite books for this very reason. Here is an excerpt:
All the rest of the day on those wild screaming beaches,
the Fix-it-up-Chappie was fixing up Sneetches.
Off again, on again, in again, out again,
through the machine and back round about again,
still paying money, still running through,
changing their stars every minute or two,
until neither the Plain- nor the Star-bellies knew
whether this one was that one or that one was this one
or which one was what one or what one was who!It is tempting, but I'm not sure that I would want to become a part of the cis world. Yes, my life has been fraught with pain. But it is that pain that has given me my humanity. And I feel that I have a richness of perspective that cis-people would envy if they could only comprehend it.
So is it hypocrisy to pursue SRS? Perhaps. But I don't mind surgeries because that feels like something I am doing to myself. "I" am in control and "I" remain. Changing my genes feels like changing "me". And I just spent a lifetime learning to love me.
Good question!
I would love if this was available...
However, knowing the science behind it, i'm a bit skeptical (I'm a geneticist working in Nanohealth). It would probably be a case of modifying not your DNA itself, but altering the expression of the gene (the cell's 'epigenome'). However the mice in those studies would have been bred with a faulty version of the gene (or a switch for the gene), so delivering it in vivo to a person would be difficult, and keeping it like that - otherwise it would just change back as cells regenerate. There has been some success in the US where they genetically modified immune cells to target cancerous cells and given back to patients.
Also the treatment is likely to be extremely expensive (that cancer treatment was in the $100,000+ range) and unfortunately as well it can take years to bring a drug to the market, especially with all the clinical trials and testing needed.
NO. NO. And NO. The whole premise behind this question is being trans is something that needs to be cured. I don't even know what people mean by dysphoric moments. I hve never had a moment. My whole life hs been one non stop bout of it. But I like who I am and resent this whole cure aspect. Isn't this a support site, not a philosophical site on curing transness. I don't need a cure.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 19, 2014, 01:30:10 PM
NO. NO. And NO. The whole premise behind this question is being trans is something that needs to be cured. I don't even know what people mean by dysphoric moments. I hve never had a moment. My whole life hs been one non stop bout of it. But I like who I am and resent this whole cure aspect. Isn't this a support site, not a philosophical site on curing transness. I don't need a cure.
the intention of the question was not a cure j , but just an option like HRT is an option not a mandated cure
Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 19, 2014, 01:30:10 PM
NO. NO. And NO. The whole premise behind this question is being trans is something that needs to be cured. I don't even know what people mean by dysphoric moments. I hve never had a moment. My whole life hs been one non stop bout of it. But I like who I am and resent this whole cure aspect. Isn't this a support site, not a philosophical site on curing transness. I don't need a cure.
I think your use of the phrase
needs to be cured is constructing and attacking a strawman argument (apologies for the philo jargon). Likewise, suggesting that the OP is turning the site into a place that is bent on "curing transness" is even more OTT and inflammatory.
I really doubt that the OP was suggesting that being trans*
needs to be cured, but rather whether people would take that option should it ever arise, which I think is a valid and uncontentious question. This is especially so given the fact that not everybody who is living with crippling dysphoria wants to transition. In short, I think it's a bit blinkered and elitist to pretend that such people don't exist and preclude their voices from support sites like this one. Then again, this is a private site, I'm not Susan and my views, as such, may be shot down in flames as a result of these factors.
I must say, I really don't understand why there's so much hostility toward an analytical approach to being trans*, as some people find that approach to be useful and supportive regarding their own situation. From what I've seen, this and other threads like it do not set out to be intentionally malicious, but are rather coming from a place of support, love and understandable curiosity.
As has been said many times, there is no single trans* narrative. What, then, does this mean when we attempt to limit the number of ways in which members can be supportive of one another?
DELETED.
I'm out. Pretty soon all the new members will have no one who has been in transition longer then a month to talk to. Good luck with that. UGH
Ooookay, so now that that happened... I've been in transition for three years, don't see this topic as offensive in the least, and will be here for a long while to come (though not horribly frequently as it *is* a bit taxing emotionally.)
Quote from: txwnl on January 19, 2014, 10:58:11 AM
I would love if this was available... i'm a bit skeptical (I'm a geneticist working in Nanohealth). It would probably be a case of modifying not your DNA itself but altering the expression of the gene (the cell's 'epigenome')
Is that what they mean when they say animals "...with silenced versions of DMRT1 will grow up as females even if they are genetically male"?
Despite the potential cost and possible ethical concerns, it does look as though they're on their way to having a hand in the manipulation of sex determination. Is it possible at this stage to speculate on what kind of sex characteristics could be transformed using the genetic approach to gender reassignment – on a young adult, for example?
I think if that day comes it will be a sad one. I wouldn't do it now, but 14 years ago? Maybe then I would have jumped on it. I think that would have been a tragedy.
HRT brings me inline. This gene therapy would force me to stay out of line by making me, not me.
My brain is my brain, regardless of what my gene expression tells my gonads to do. I'm pretty fine with the idea that I could one day tell my DNA to do what *I* tell it to and not what it *thinks* it wants to do.
Would it have changed my life and where I'm at today? Yeah. Would I have had the same set of circumstances and results that I had leading up to today? No. Would I have been happier? Yeah, probably. The world is better off for me being myself as I am but I think that, personally, I'd have probably been able to focus more on what was important to my dreams and goals without the overhead of GID/Transition/Dysphoria involved.
That said, I *do* see GD as a disease in the same sense that I would if I had Multiple-Sclerosis, Parkinsons, or some other weird-o malady of the DNA. I can't have kids. My body is weird and developed wrongly (also, huge and heavy as hell). No manner or amount of monkeying with surgery, hormones, self-acceptance, or anything else will tell my brain that the body that it inhabits is the correct one as that's neurologically impossible.
I'm happy with my life but being able to feel at home in my body would be a blessing that I would give near anything to achieve. As it's medically impossible, I'll make do with what I have and be happy with it but if there were a better option, I'd have and would still take it in a heartbeat.
(P.S. - Just to be clear, I'm 100% against the idea that I'd want to ever go from Female to Male brained. That's a horrible, terrible idea and I don't think that it's even possible using the furthest extrapolations of the science of neuroplasticity. Curing GD by trying to change the brain is an awful plan and would almost certainly do nothing good for the patient.)
(P.P.S. - I'm also pretty sure that the OP is of the same mindset and was talking about gene therapy to fix the body, not the brain... for those of you freaking out about that.)
Totally agree, Victoria.
As to a cure for feeling so wrong, I wouldn't complain. I would want to know what it would all change first before doing anything though.
I'm not so sure something like this would be effective as you put it because sex determination basically happens in the womb, and that's it. Thus I don't see how changing the expression of a gene could actually have this effect in anyone who is not still an embryo :P.
But yeah, if you pose the question:
If someone could theoretically make you cissexual in the brain through an authentic medical means, would you go through with it?
My answer would likely be no at this point because I've already taken so much action on it and I tend to be all about being true to how I feel about myself+psychiatric drugs scare me enough already, so why would I allow anyone to mess with my head this way?
Read the comments above. Your supposition about the nature of physical sex to be fixed is incorrect.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 19, 2014, 10:30:43 PM
That said, I *do* see GD as a disease in the same sense that I would if I had Multiple-Sclerosis, Parkinsons, or some other weird-o malady of the DNA. I can't have kids. My body is weird and developed wrongly (also, huge and heavy as hell). No manner or amount of monkeying with surgery, hormones, self-acceptance, or anything else will tell my brain that the body that it inhabits is the correct one as that's neurologically impossible.
I've been wanting to say something in response to this section cause it's made me sad. Or maybe scared me. Maybe both. I mean, it's like the exact opposite of how I think and feel, aside from having physical aspects I'm less than fond of on myself. GD as a disease? I just—
I gotta stop there cause I don't want to debate it, at least on a forum. Face to face would be different because on forums is where I have a history of not being able to put things in such a way that later clarification isn't required and I don't want to make anybody be heated and kept simmering during the times that I'm AFK. So, I'm just going to wish you well Victoria.
Quote from: Sephirah on January 18, 2014, 10:21:16 PM
If a sequence of genes is responsible for 99.5% of my internal and perceptual self-identity, and changing them this way will affect not only how I view myself but also how I relate to, and interact with the rest of the world... that's a very scary thought. I have always believed that who I am is a more holistic experience. Not based solely on myself, but on the complex interrelations I have with the environment around me - perception, assimilation and insight. A dynamic growth that leads to a synergy. A whole greater than the sum of its parts.
If something like this was hypothetically possible, it would feel to me like trying to re-arrange a jigsaw by replacing only one piece of it.
I'd much rather them locate and rectify the gene responsible for me not liking chocolate, because I hear it's really rather good.
I'd like a gene for liking the modern style beef chop suey instead of the small family owned Chinese take out that use to be
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 19, 2014, 10:30:43 PM
My brain is my brain, regardless of what my gene expression tells my gonads to do. I'm pretty fine with the idea that I could one day tell my DNA to do what *I* tell it to and not what it *thinks* it wants to do.
Would it have changed my life and where I'm at today? Yeah. Would I have had the same set of circumstances and results that I had leading up to today? No. Would I have been happier? Yeah, probably. The world is better off for me being myself as I am but I think that, personally, I'd have probably been able to focus more on what was important to my dreams and goals without the overhead of GID/Transition/Dysphoria involved.
That said, I *do* see GD as a disease in the same sense that I would if I had Multiple-Sclerosis, Parkinsons, or some other weird-o malady of the DNA. I can't have kids. My body is weird and developed wrongly (also, huge and heavy as hell). No manner or amount of monkeying with surgery, hormones, self-acceptance, or anything else will tell my brain that the body that it inhabits is the correct one as that's neurologically impossible.
I'm happy with my life but being able to feel at home in my body would be a blessing that I would give near anything to achieve. As it's medically impossible, I'll make do with what I have and be happy with it but if there were a better option, I'd have and would still take it in a heartbeat.
(P.S. - Just to be clear, I'm 100% against the idea that I'd want to ever go from Female to Male brained. That's a horrible, terrible idea and I don't think that it's even possible using the furthest extrapolations of the science of neuroplasticity. Curing GD by trying to change the brain is an awful plan and would almost certainly do nothing good for the patient.)
(P.P.S. - I'm also pretty sure that the OP is of the same mindset and was talking about gene therapy to fix the body, not the brain... for those of you freaking out about that.)
free will
The whole point was to give you an option exactly as HRT gives you and option. that's all I was saying . free will has nothing to do with your genes. God gave you free will as a gift which as far as I know in the whole of history nobody has been able to take that away from any one.
Quote from: stephaniec on January 20, 2014, 10:35:41 AM
The whole point was to give you an option exactly as HRT gives you and option. that's all I was saying . free will has nothing to do with your genes. God gave you free will as a gift which as far as I know in the whole of history nobody has been able to take that away from any one.
I'm an atheist/scientist so I don't look at it that way but, persistence of consciousness isn't something I'm terribly worried about losing.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 20, 2014, 11:05:22 AM
I'm an atheist/scientist so I don't look at it that way but, persistence of consciousness isn't something I'm terribly worried about losing.
consciousness is not gene regulated either
I think consciousness has it's beginnings in the atom , From a purely scientific point of view , the electron is aware of the proton and vice versa.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 20, 2014, 11:05:22 AM
I'm an atheist/scientist so I don't look at it that way but, persistence of consciousness isn't something I'm terribly worried about losing.
Do you really retain your
self even if you hold possession of your consciousness through the process of changing from who you are to who you aren't?
Quote from: Jen on January 20, 2014, 01:15:46 PM
Do you really retain your self even if you hold possession of your consciousness through the process of changing from who you are to who you aren't?
There is very little known about consciousness, but one thing that many prominent brain boffins appear to agree on is that consciousness is not centralised. No homunculus. No Cartesian Theatre. The "self" is an illusion.
Every night I go to sleep, I die. Every morning I awake, I am reborn. This is how my consciousness works. Maintaining an uninterrupted continuity of consciousness is the only way to guarantee retention of self. Who knows what happened in the meantime. I could have been body swapped. I agree. The self is an illusion. But an illusion better than nothing at all, I suppose.
If you stick me with a needle and the result is I become somebody I am not and never have been, I think that is the same difference as killing me. There is no way I would sign up for that, and if anybody tried to force it on me I would fight back like my life depended on it.
*blinks* Exactly what do ya'll think that we're talking about here? Essentially, the basis of the conversation from my side at least is that you can manipulate the SRY gene and basically delete it from your personal genome and then you should physically change from male to female without much hubub.
I doubt that process would change the neuronal connections in your brain immediately. Sure, you'd change eventually but, really girls, we inject hormones into our system which changes a ton of things. Then we modify our bodies and, at times, go through radical facial plastic surgery (ending up looking like nothing resembling our former selves).
If you all think that this is much different, so be it, but I really don't see what the hoopla is. If at the end, I'd get a 100% working VJ, ovaries which could produce eggs and a uterus to fertilize and incubate my children, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Oh I'm talking about the original question, not that.
If I could be stuck with a needle and become cis female, let me be the first in line.
I am not the same person I was ten years ago. We all change, develop, transition into something else, and we're not talking about transition. So if this injection was a slow acting one then the changes would be imperceptible and painless. It would feel almost natural.
Quote from: Jen on January 20, 2014, 03:04:47 PM
Oh I'm talking about the original question, not that.
If I could be stuck with a needle and become cis female, let me be the first in line.
I think the question is getting misunderstood. It's just a matter of two treatments one being HRT and the other comparable non mandatory treatment of a genetic modifier to reverse a hypothetically proposed possible solution to dysphoria . Either live as a female or live contently as a male.
Quote from: stephaniec on January 20, 2014, 03:15:16 PM
I think the question is getting misunderstood. It's just a matter of two treatments one being HRT and the other comparable non mandatory treatment of a genetic modifier to reverse a hypothetically proposed possible solution to dysphoria . Either live as a female or live contently as a male.
Yes, this is the question I was answering, and my answer to being changed into a cis male is
over my dead body.
Quote from: stephaniec on January 20, 2014, 03:15:16 PM
I think the question is getting misunderstood. It's just a matter of two treatments one being HRT and the other comparable non mandatory treatment of a genetic modifier to reverse a hypothetically proposed possible solution to dysphoria . Either live as a female or live contently as a male.
Oh gods, why in the WORLD would ANYONE want to do THAT?!?!?!? Backtracking, I'm 100% against this idea and agree that the very concept would essentially be re-writing a personality.
That said, I think that this would fail 100% of the time. There's no chance that you'd re-write the basic drives of an already established personality whilst retaining the memories and history of that person without basically driving that new person insane.
The body is just a means of conveyance through this three dimensional world. The mind is where your self resides. It takes precedence. You can change the body without changing the self, you cannot do the same with the mind. The narrative splits, leaving two different people if you do that.
And yes you do change over time, but you have a (relatively) persistent narrative. That is why you still are the same person throughout. It is also why the enormous change transition often brings can cause pretty severe cognitive dissonance until you figure out a way to reconcile your narrative.
Quote from: Jen on January 20, 2014, 03:43:57 PM
The body is just a means of conveyance through this three dimensional world. The mind is where your self resides. It takes precedence. You can change the body without changing the self, you cannot do the same with the mind. The narrative splits, leaving two different people if you do that.
And yes you do change over time, but you have a (relatively) persistent narrative. That is why you still are the same person throughout. It is also why the enormous change transition often brings can cause pretty severe cognitive dissonance until you figure out a way to reconcile your narrative.
*highfive*
I wouldn't go for it either because prior to the choice of how I wanted to solve the dysphoria ,I am totally aware that being male is not who I am. I've always been female even though I've struggled with the delusion of trying to be male. I know the male realm is not my realm.
My answer may seem strange to many of you, but if it really is about resolving dysphoria, then I'd be happy with either procedure. If it's about more than just resolving the dysphoria, that tells me my decision would be based on something else entirely.
I think it would be amazing if I could flick a genetic switch and become as close to being female as is possible with a biologically male body. But equally, if, as is claimed in this thought experiment, gene therapy would allow me live happily as a male, then that's exactly what I would expect to happen -- me living happily as a male, nothing more nothing less. Of course, if these procedures did ever eventuate, I would have a serious look at what was involved before choosing which way to jump.
Quote from: JS on January 20, 2014, 07:49:43 PM
My answer may seem strange to many of you, but if it really is about resolving dysphoria, then I'd be happy with either procedure. If it's about more than just resolving the dysphoria, that tells me my decision would be based on something else entirely.
I think it would be amazing if I could flick a genetic switch and become as close to being female as is possible with a biologically male body. But equally, if, as is claimed in this thought experiment, gene therapy would allow me live happily as a male, then that's exactly what I would expect to happen -- me living happily as a male, nothing more nothing less. Of course, if these procedures did ever eventuate, I would have a serious look at what was involved before choosing which way to jump.
I just view it as a possible option . It seems reasonable if you can use hormones to adjust mind and body why wouldn't there be a way to do the same thing just with the other mind body dilemma. You'd just need to choose what's best for you personally , You'd be dealing with the same dysphoria just the mirror image. The dysphoria would still be the same and need to be treated just which version.
I read that there is a gene in mice, that when "flipped" male mice start producing female level hormones.
And, on a side thought soon they can print a new body part with your DNA, that will not have rejection.
Quote from: emilyking on January 21, 2014, 06:32:18 AM
I read that there is a gene in mice, that when "flipped" male mice start producing female level hormones.
And, on a side thought soon they can print a new body part with your DNA, that will not have rejection.
beware of your clone
In response to the original question, I wouldn't do it. I can't even begin to imagine what it would feel like to be a woman. I've never been one. I went through short phases where I was slightly confused, and other phases where I tried to look and act "normal" in a failed attempt to feel better (since I had no idea transition was a possibility), but I was never remotely female. Being a man is so deeply ingrained in my sense of being that it would be the same as murder in my case.
To be fair, if I were in a situation where I would lose my partner if I transitioned, I have to say I would want that treatment since I don't think it would be possible for me to stay mentally stable and non-transitioning unless I were "cured." I'm 100% sure of this. Fortunately, that's not my situation.