Hey, Riven here. I'm contemplating ways to get the ball rolling on allowing service for open transfolk. Since anybody in the military can tell you that the military is like a giant cow that refuses to get up and move as far as social reform goes, I'm trying to find the cattle prod that will get this going. Now I'm normally the type to sit and watch, but nothing is happening from what I can see and as far as the news can show me, and this journey gets harder each day I put it off. I know there are more than a few service members here who wouldn't mind openly serving. After all, I'm not sure on what grounds the military is barring trans individuals from serving. They allowed the LGB part to serve openly and as far as I can tell the earth hasn't devoured itself. As it stands right now, I can think of very few things other than writing letters and emails to senators anonymously that will reach anybodies eyes that could possibly do anything about it. Anybody have some good thoughts? It's tough to really get active in the military because the of the nature of the ban itself. Thanks for your consideration.
If I had my guess I'd say it all comes down to genitals (doesn't it always). I think they don't want men with vaginas or women with penises, and they don't want to have to pay for SRS.
The military follows society's attitudes. When gay people became acceptable to society, policy forced the military to accept them.
We need more people to understand that trans people are not just sex workers, entertainers, and the off-the-wall nutty people you seen in the media. Most people don't realize that we're competent, sane, hard-working, serious people whose only difference from anyone else is a brain structure that drives us to adopt a different gender presentation.
When people understand that, getting the military to accept trans folks will be a cakewalk.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 22, 2014, 11:37:34 AM
The military follows society's attitudes. When gay people became acceptable to society, policy forced the military to accept them.
We need more people to understand that trans people are not just sex workers, entertainers, and the off-the-wall nutty people you seen in the media. Most people don't realize that we're competent, sane, hard-working, serious people whose only difference from anyone else is a brain structure that drives us to adopt a different gender presentation.
When people understand that, getting the military to accept trans folks will be a cakewalk.
I wouldn't bet on it....at least not for a looooooong time
Officially, the US Military considers transgenders to have a psychological disorder that renders one unfit for service.
Unofficially, my guess is like Oriah says. Its about the genitals and living in close quarters when on active duty stationed in some locations it would be more difficult to make both transgenders and cis comfortable living together due to stereotypes. Look at how gays were treated even a few years ago, or even today for that matter. I have known straight people that as soon as they found out a friend was gay they wanted nothing to do with them saying they didn't want to get hit on. That absurd stereotype that gay people will hit on every person of the same sex I think may apply to transgenders as well in some situations.
I think there would be a considerable problem with being post-op in a battlefield situation.
"Sorry, can't go on patrol now, gotta dilate."
I was in the military. Like education and business, it is an institution that's slow to change.
Australia, Canada and the UK all have serving trans people and the world hasn't ended.
Quote from: Oriah on January 22, 2014, 10:03:42 AM
If I had my guess I'd say it all comes down to genitals (doesn't it always). I think they don't want men with vaginas or women with penises, and they don't want to have to pay for SRS.
I don't see how that can be an issue considering our genitals aren't visible in uniform. I'm wondering if tricare would possibly cover SRS with our one free cosmetic, if some of the higher ups decided to stop being ignorant.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 22, 2014, 11:37:34 AM
The military follows society's attitudes. When gay people became acceptable to society, policy forced the military to accept them.
We need more people to understand that trans people are not just sex workers, entertainers, and the off-the-wall nutty people you seen in the media. Most people don't realize that we're competent, sane, hard-working, serious people whose only difference from anyone else is a brain structure that drives us to adopt a different gender presentation.
When people understand that, getting the military to accept trans folks will be a cakewalk.
well that's fine except for the fact the military differs in a lot of ways from from standards. For instance, those of us in the military don't have freedom of speech. You're not allowed haircuts that are considered faddish, so there goes freedom of expression. I mean if even half of the rules the military pushes were pushed on the country, you would have riots or an empty country as everybody crosses the border to Canada. Here's another strange thing, given the statistics that i've seen, everybody in the country more than likely knows or knows someone who knows at least one transgendered person and in fact that statistic is probably true for the military as well.
Quote from: overdrive on January 22, 2014, 02:04:04 PM
Officially, the US Military considers transgenders to have a psychological disorder that renders one unfit for service.
Unofficially, my guess is like Oriah says. Its about the genitals and living in close quarters when on active duty stationed in some locations it would be more difficult to make both transgenders and cis comfortable living together due to stereotypes. Look at how gays were treated even a few years ago, or even today for that matter. I have known straight people that as soon as they found out a friend was gay they wanted nothing to do with them saying they didn't want to get hit on. That absurd stereotype that gay people will hit on every person of the same sex I think may apply to transgenders as well in some situations.
The source that reg was based on has since been changed so it actually doesn't have a leg to stand on, the only thing keeping it alive are the people wearing brass. Lastly, discrimination against any person in the military is against the rules, so let's not punish those trying to make their lives better because of a few individuals who are as short sighted as they are close minded.
Quote from: Jamie D on January 22, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
I think there would be a considerable problem with being post-op in a battlefield situation.
"Sorry, can't go on patrol now, gotta dilate."
most supervision (from what i've seen) is willing to wrap work around people's education schedules overseas, why not transgender folk?
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 22, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Australia, Canada and the UK all have serving trans people and the world hasn't ended.
How can we boast to be the greatest country/military the world has ever known when our three closest allies are passing us in social reform and not sweating a single drop doing it? Does it take me leaving my home country and joining an armed forces that will accept me before I'm happy, or can we do ourselves a favor and help EVERYBODY at once who needs it? Better yet, why don't serious people take a serious look at the countries who have already done this and see how we can comfortably drop the same system into our own military?
Kelly and Riven, can you name a post-op MtF, who as post-op, has seen combat?
My example was one of the complexities of post-operative necessities in a combat zone.
Desk job? No problem.
Quote from: Jamie D on January 22, 2014, 10:20:07 PM
Kelly and Riven, can you name a post-op MtF, who as post-op, has seen combat?
My example was one of the complexities of post-operative necessities in a combat zone.
Desk job? No problem.
Not off the top of my head.. Which is not to say it hasn't happened - I just don't know every trans person serving..
Quote from: Jamie D on January 22, 2014, 10:20:07 PM
Kelly and Riven, can you name a post-op MtF, who as post-op, has seen combat?
My example was one of the complexities of post-operative necessities in a combat zone.
Desk job? No problem.
I can't honestly say I know any because they're banned in the US and most of our allies don't tend to just put boots on the ground for the sake of it. Even with that, if it were my life or dilating I would choose my life. I can't think of a single combat zone on earth where troops dont get a few moments of privacy a day. Honestly, I'm sure there is at least one among our allies who is managing just fine.
Quote from: Riven on January 22, 2014, 09:51:09 PM
How can we boast to be the greatest country/military the world has ever known when our three closest allies are passing us in social reform and not sweating a single drop doing it? Does it take me leaving my home country and joining an armed forces that will accept me before I'm happy, or can we do ourselves a favor and help EVERYBODY at once who needs it? Better yet, why don't serious people take a serious look at the countries who have already done this and see how we can comfortably drop the same system into our own military?
In the United States, the military has been used in rare occasions, to effect social reform. Lincoln enlisted black freemen and former slaves in the Civil War effort. Truman directed that racially segregated units be integrated. We have seen the use in the last couple of decades of women in military roles they has not previously been allowed to fill. These are all positive.
But the primary role of the military is national defense, not social experimentation.
Quote from: Jamie D on January 22, 2014, 10:38:10 PM
In the United States, the military has been used in rare occasions, to effect social reform. Lincoln enlisted black freemen and former slaves in the Civil War effort. Truman directed that racially segregated units be integrated. We have seen the use in the last couple of decades of women in military roles they has not previously been allowed to fill. These are all positive.
But the primary role of the military is national defense, not social experimentation.
I wholeheartedly agree, but when does somebody transitioning and at what point in there do they start to harm efforts of protecting our country? Is there any grounds for me to believe that someone taking their own earned leave and their own money earned to do potentially buy their own happiness, would hurt the military? America is just better than this, that's why I want it so badly. I see a few potential cons to it, but even giving a few people a chance at their happiness is worth it, isnt it?
I don't disagree with you. Discrimination against TG/TS folks is wrong.
I tend to think, however, it would be better not to use the "cattle prod." Perhaps an incremental approach, starting with allowing current, trained, pre-op, closeted service members begin HRT, rather than waste that training and expertise.
For people entering the military -aren't there a zillion reasons the MEPS people could screen out a TG person beyond the sheer fact they are trans? When I was seriously thinking about joining 4-5 years ago, I was told MEPS required letters of exception (whatever they are officially called, waivers I think?) for stuff like being in therapy at any point in your life, having asthma as a kid, any kind of surgery at all - even if it was no longer an issue, etc.
Surgeries, ever-present need for medication - all 'legit' reasons they could cite for why they would not want to let trans people in combat. It is not really the same as the end of DADT for this reason.
Quote from: Jamie D on January 22, 2014, 10:20:07 PM
Kelly and Riven, can you name a post-op MtF, who as post-op, has seen combat?
My example was one of the complexities of post-operative necessities in a combat zone.
Desk job? No problem.
Not sure on combat (I don't know) but Prince Williams chief helicopter pilot was/is a transgender woman. So she was trusted to be capable of looking after the future King of England.
Quote from: Riven on January 22, 2014, 09:51:09 PM
I don't see how that can be an issue considering our genitals aren't visible in uniform.
The uniforms come off sometimes......as in USMC group showers at basic....
Quote from: Jamie D on January 22, 2014, 11:08:23 PM
I don't disagree with you. Discrimination against TG/TS folks is wrong.
I tend to think, however, it would be better not to use the "cattle prod." Perhaps an incremental approach, starting with allowing current, trained, pre-op, closeted service members begin HRT, rather than waste that training and expertise.
I can back this for sure, at least its a pretty good start considering everything. Who would I write to in order to have my words truly read and considered in some sort of Office?
Quote from: Oriah on January 23, 2014, 02:02:37 AM
The uniforms come off sometimes......as in USMC group showers at basic....
I think the common sense solution is to put members in flights/platoons based on their physical sex.
Quote from: Riven on January 23, 2014, 08:48:00 AM
I think the common sense solution is to put members in flights/platoons based on their physical sex.
what happens if there is someone with primary sex characteristics of one sex, but secondary sex characteristics of another....IE breasts and penis or vagina and goatee?
and what if your proposed solution is accpeptable to cisgendered people, but not trans people.....I wouldn't want to have to shower with men just because I haven't had surgery....
Quote from: Oriah on January 23, 2014, 09:51:00 AM
what happens if there is someone with primary sex characteristics of one sex, but secondary sex characteristics of another....IE breasts and penis or vagina and goatee?
and what if your proposed solution is accpeptable to cisgendered people, but not trans people.....I wouldn't want to have to shower with men just because I haven't had surgery....
The only solution I can think of on the fly is make the showers more private, you know showers with curtains type of deal. I'm trying to think of something more meaningful, but I just woke up and I'm trying to turn my brain on. I'm more interested in how to affect change. That's what I'm after in this thread, but this is good, I need a solid plan to hand someone if anybody actually listens to what I have to say.