This is in part a response to a topic that was touched on in another post -
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148651.msg1347126.html#msg1347126 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148651.msg1347126.html#msg1347126)
Right now I am re-examining everything I have come to believe about "gender", even its very existence. I am post-op MTF who now identifies again as male. Is my gender strictly self-defined? Is my gender what society treats me as? Does the fact that some will see me as "less than a man" due to my medical history matter in how my gender need be defined? Because my gender is interpreted differently by different people and I still find myself being "fluid" in my gender presentation (even if it is just a split second reaction to someone calling me "ma'am"), does that make me "genderqueer"? I don't know.
I do feel that there is a biological boundary between the male and female sexes. There are a few exceptions to this binary that occur, but the fact that the binary is only 99% (or whatever it is) as opposed to 100% does little to dissuade me from feeling that this is a legitimate binary. I think that a lot of what we call "gender" (and I still do believe there is such a thing) exists to help our species procreate. I can't get into it too deeply here, but I think that the patriarchy at one point probably served its purpose, at the expense of women, to help our species survive. However, as we move closer to social equality of the two sexes (we are still a LONG ways off) and intercourse is no longer necessary for procreation how much of gender do we really need? Should any of it be retained? Is now something we choose and we can make up our own rules? I am not sure of any of this. But these are questions that society is still navigating in many different areas besides just the trans ones we talk a lot about here.
In my case I got to the point that gender (at least as it applied to myself) was something that I didn't care that much about anymore. But I can't totally run away from it because in many (not all) interactions with other people, their perception of my gender will have an influence upon how we interact.
I guess right now some would consider me "genderqueer" (I didn't even know exactly what that term meant until a few months ago.) Since I am male sexed, to whatever degree gender still matters I still feel more comfortable identifying as male gendered. It feels like my truth.
Anyone else think about these sorts of things?
Some people really don't have a gender.
IMO, gender is very complicated. It is a combination of how people treat you, the roles you play, how you see yourself, your physical sex, and how you are wired.
We are wired to figure out what gender people are. It's pretty much required for the propagation of the species, so it's a very powerful impulse, one that that I don't think can be overridden consciously. I think intellectually people can understand non-binary gender or agender but emotionally, we are so programmed to expect people to be gendered, that it's a hard pill to swallow.
Quote from: retransition on January 30, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
This is in part a response to a topic that was touched on in another post -
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148651.msg1347126.html#msg1347126 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148651.msg1347126.html#msg1347126)
Right now I am re-examining everything I have come to believe about "gender", even its very existence. I am post-op MTF who now identifies again as male. Is my gender strictly self-defined? Is my gender what society treats me as? Does the fact that some will see me as "less than a man" due to my medical history matter in how my gender need be defined? Because my gender is interpreted differently by different people and I still find myself being "fluid" in my gender presentation (even if it is just a split second reaction to someone calling me "ma'am"), does that make me "genderqueer"? I don't know.
I think the term "gender" varies in its usage and meaning depending on who you ask or when. Context matters. If you ask the average person in the street, they will probably say gender is the same as sex. If you ask a sociologist performing research, then the term "gender" will refer to the social roles and expectations around sex, but not the same as biological sex (page 2 of this link addresses that http://libcom.org/files/Mary%20Holmes%20What%20is%20Gender%20Sociological%20Approaches.pdf). Trans* people tend to use "gender" as referring to a person's gender identity, i.e., sense of being male or female or something else. "Genderqueer" being one term used to describe certain kinds of gender identity.
I suppose that the question of what gender people would assign you to depends on how they define gender. To the average person, the answer might depend on your biological sex status. To a sociologist, it might depend on the roles you are expected to fill. To a trans* person! the answer might be that you are what you say you are. You say above that you identify as male, so to a trans* person, that would be what your gender is. Whether you are genderqueer would depend on whether you identify in that way.
Quote from: retransition on January 30, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
I do feel that there is a biological boundary between the male and female sexes. There are a few exceptions to this binary that occur, but the fact that the binary is only 99% (or whatever it is) as opposed to 100% does little to dissuade me from feeling that this is a legitimate binary.
I suspect that most people would agree that there is a biological sex binary (subject to certain individuals who blur those lines due to numerous different kinds of intersex conditions). But the question is how does this apply to gender? To the average person, they would be assumed to be the same. To our hypothetical sociologist, it might be that some people live in a social gender different from their biological sex. To a hypothetical trans* person, the answer might be that gender and sex are different things that are more or less independent of one another. The sex binary might be legitimate because it's biological reality. But that would not necessarily mean that the gender binary is legitimate because one might identify outside of the person's biological sex, and might not even identify within either of the two binary categories.
I make a good example of someone who can blur things a bit. If I dress the part, take T, cut my hair, etc. then I can give a good impression of being male with only my voice and manner raising questions. If I dress the part, take E, let my hair grow, etc. then I give an even better impression of being female. If I make little effort and don't take any hormones at all, then I get things like the first question I was asked when I saw a doctor about trans* hormone treatments ("ummmmmmm....can I ask in which direction?"). Apparently I can be pretty ambiguous even while being required to wear a suit and tie while presenting male at work. Not something I like to go into in a lot of detail, but apparently I am biologically a little odd.
Quote from: retransition on January 30, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
I think that a lot of what we call "gender" (and I still do believe there is such a thing) exists to help our species procreate. I can't get into it too deeply here, but I think that the patriarchy at one point probably served its purpose, at the expense of women, to help our species survive.
Hmmmmm....several things I could say here.
It is interesting how in hunter gatherer societies, there seems to be a nigh universal division of labor (i.e. sociological gender) based on biological sex. Men hunt and fight wars. Women are the gatherers and tend the home. Some societies may provide a way for a person to switch between gender roles. It seems that it does help society to procreate (the one who bears and raises children is less exposed to danger) and it has a basis in physical strength differences between sexes as well. But I don't think one would hear about "the patriarchy" in those societies.
The idea of "the patriarchy" is a pretty new one. It seems to arise in post-industrial societies when a similar division of labor is maintained despite being rendered obsolete by social change. For example, although not many people in such a society will hunt for subsistence, the job of going out into the workplace and "bringing home the bacon" is still seen as a man's job. The job of tending the home and raising children is still seen as a woman's job.
When one looks at how this benefits or harms men and women, the tendency is to point at the workplace, recognize inequality between men and women in the workplace, and conclude that women are oppressed by "the patriarchy." But this way of thinking is, in my opinion, overly simplistic and narrow. It is subject to criticism for disregarding the entire rest of life. It also fails to consider distinctions between class, gender conformity, and other issues that may have a much greater impact on a person than gender. It also paints with such a broad brush that it becomes meaningless because the experiences people have vary widely depending on their personal experiences. I may draw some heat for saying that, and I'm only willing to spend a little bit of time arguing the issue, but most who study the issue beyond a sort of pop feminism (psychologists and sociologists, for example) seem to agree with me.
This is a very long way of suggesting a deeper and more nuanced look at "the patriarchy" and whether it is at "the expense of women." The answer, I suspect, is that gender based social expectations have a major, major impact on our lives, but that the ways in which they benefit or harm people largely depend on what setting you are considering and on numerous factors that may often overwhelm simple maleness or femaleness. I've written elsewhere on my experience of wondering why I never seemed to experience the things that some described as "male privilege" even while living as male, and how I do now experience things that I recognize as "female privilege" now, and how the difference had to do with my ability to comply with social gender norms.
Quote from: retransition on January 30, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
However, as we move closer to social equality of the two sexes (we are still a LONG ways off) and intercourse is no longer necessary for procreation how much of gender do we really need? Should any of it be retained? Is now something we choose and we can make up our own rules? I am not sure of any of this. But these are questions that society is still navigating in many different areas besides just the trans ones we talk a lot about here.
I agree.
Quote from: retransition on January 30, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
In my case I got to the point that gender (at least as it applied to myself) was something that I didn't care that much about anymore. But I can't totally run away from it because in many (not all) interactions with other people, their perception of my gender will have an influence upon how we interact.
I guess right now some would consider me "genderqueer" (I didn't even know exactly what that term meant until a few months ago.) Since I am male sexed, to whatever degree gender still matters I still feel more comfortable identifying as male gendered. It feels like my truth.
Anyone else think about these sorts of things?
When you are me, you spend a lot of time thinking about them. Gender still matters to me though. I like being on the right side of it. I often describe it as feeling like coming home after a long trip. That feeling of things being where you left them and right where they belong is a pretty apt way of describing how it feels to me.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 30, 2014, 07:08:49 AM
IMO, gender is very complicated. It is a combination of how people treat you, the roles you play, how you see yourself, your physical sex, and how you are wired.
We are wired to figure out what gender people are. It's pretty much required for the propagation of the species, so it's a very powerful impulse, one that that I don't think can be overridden consciously. I think intellectually people can understand non-binary gender or agender but emotionally, we are so programmed to expect people to be gendered, that it's a hard pill to swallow.
My sense is that there is an innate need to classify, gender and group almost anything we experience. It helps with decisioning, it provides a sense of security and it makes us lazy, simplistic and afraid of nuance and shades of grey. Thankfully change is afoot. An increasing percentage of humanity are ok with greater ambiguity, some even enjoy the associated hesitation and discomfort.
As with any social change there will be those ahead of the wave, those who surf it and those who are left in its wake. Gender's increasing nuance and fluidity is a feature of our times. It is a good thing and promises greater individual fulfilment and a richer community.
Some people separate physical differences from gender, equating gender to the expression of either male or female appearances or traits. There's female physiology and there's male physiology, but personally, I see a variety of people who aren't defined by their physical bodies. Science and society put labels on to each individual as soon as that individual is born. Because of society, that individual is then expected to conform to what society has laid out for someone of that gender. If that individual doesn't seem to "fit" within those guidelines, they are outside of the "norm". Even when someone is intersex or trans, they're expected to "pick a side". So it seems to a lot of people in society, gender is so paramount in importance that it's the very first question that's ever asked of anyone.
To me, it's complete bullocks to think everyone is either male or female and that's that. There exists a scale of variations and once you throw in that many aspects of gender are personal, individual preferences, well that kind of blows the binary for me. Sure, a majority of people are just fine in their cozy gender identity and what's expected of them, However, I think if you would ask even individuals who do not identify as trans or genderqueer at all if there have been times in their lives where they felt they could not do something or express themselves in a certain way simply because what ever it was would have been seen as having to do with the opposite gender of their assigned gender, you would get a lot of yes answers. To me, this is what is important – that there are people who are being stifled from expression, that there are people who are being ridiculed because of their expression, and that there are people who are being prevented from feeling comfortable about themselves because of the "majority rule" about gender. I'm not anti-binary, I'm pro-acceptance of the middle ground between the binary and the fact that cross-over isn't grounds to oppress, ridicule, or ostracize.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 02, 2014, 02:50:06 PMSure, a majority of people are just fine in their cozy gender identity and what's expected of them, However, I think if you would ask even individuals who do not identify as trans or genderqueer at all if there have been times in their lives where they felt they could not do something or express themselves in a certain way simply because what ever it was wouldn't have been seen as having to do with the opposite gender of their assigned gender, you would get a lot of yes answers. To me, this is what is important –
Great post and I agree with much of it - especially the quote I am pulling. This is why I personally am not comfortable with the usage of the term "cisgendered" (or "cis"). To me that kind of language reinforces a false narrative that only people who declare themselves "trans" have ever struggled with gender identity related issues. I think that many (not necessarily all) people have had situations or thoughts or even periods of their lives where they felt some discomfort in being their gender. Labeling the full spectrum of how people relate to gender using a crudely primitive classification of "cis" or "trans" to me is not useful and creates an entirely new binary that's actual existence is debatable. The cis/trans binary certainly makes it easier to reinforce stereotypes that further divide people instead of bringing them closer.
Quote from: Gerri_2013 on January 31, 2014, 05:44:36 AM
Gender's increasing nuance and fluidity is a feature of our times. It is a good thing and promises greater individual fulfilment and a richer community.
Yes - I totally believe this. And the story is much larger than just the trans community. I believe that much of what we call "gender" is slowly becoming irrelevant. (I don't think it is totally irrelevant but I am keeping an ear open to hearing the thoughts of people who think gender no longer serves ANY purpose.)
One thing is for sure. Much of what we call gender is a choice - either on an individual or societal basis. It doesn't matter if we are talking about a natal female/natal male embracing certain cultural female/male stereotypes that she/he has to learn, or if is a society that makes a choice to enforce her/his compliance and adoption of a learned stereotype, more and more of us are learning that a lot of this is not natural - it is done either because we want to do it or someone else is pressuring us to do it. And of course, if so much of it is a choice, then there is nothing stopping someone of one natal sex of adopting what they please that is associated with the opposite natal sex. As long as this is empowering to the individual and not at the expense of someone else, I can't find anything wrong with it. And of course, the relationship that exists between transsexuals and gender is constantly raising new questions and challenging old beliefs we have built up over millennia. What we have long been happy to just accept as "gender" is actually a fluid set of behaviors, expectations and (I believe) biological tendencies that can mean different things in different situations or in different contexts. Maybe we will never be able to fully pin down exactly what gender means and we will just have to accept its fuzzy and sometimes transitory nature (pun NOT intended). But just because we might not be able to figure it all out doesn't mean we should stop talking about it and trying to understand it. Finally, since this is uncharted ground let's watch out for situations where ignoring it altogether could create a vacuum that puts people, no matter what gender they define themselves to be, at risk.
As I recently said in another thread, I think the gender binary is oversubscribed.
I gender myself female mostly because it's easier. I'm learning that I'm not really one or the other, but I do have some preferences. For example, I prefer to present more female than male. I prefer more female-typical interactions with others.. That said, there are some things about me that are still decidely manly.. And I'm not all that fussed by it.
I apply a label to myself because society likes to go with the gender binary. In a perfect world, I'd just be Kelly and people would accept me as I am.
As usual, you raise so many interesting points. Let me grab just one for now (and it sort of fits in with my train of thought tonight.)
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
It is interesting how in hunter gatherer societies, there seems to be a nigh universal division of labor (i.e. sociological gender) based on biological sex. Men hunt and fight wars. Women are the gatherers and tend the home. Some societies may provide a way for a person to switch between gender roles. It seems that it does help society to procreate (the one who bears and raises children is less exposed to danger) and it has a basis in physical strength differences between sexes as well. But I don't think one would hear about "the patriarchy" in those societies.
The idea of "the patriarchy" is a pretty new one. It seems to arise in post-industrial societies when a similar division of labor is maintained despite being rendered obsolete by social change.
I have not been that interested in feminism until recently and my sudden interest is, ironically, because I find it is helping me define how I wish to express my own masculinity since I am, in a sense, getting a second shot in how I wish to define it. When it comes to "gender studies" I am still catching up on trying to understand the historical relationships and power dynamics between the two sexes. (As someone who once identified as "female", acknowledging the fact that I was so uninterested in this topic as I went through my transition is embarrassing yet telling.) All that being said, so far I am basically with you in your understandings of the roots of gender dynamics. I agree that social changes led to bringing the patriarchy into clearer focus but I think it was not so much about division of labor as that the patriarchy's grip loosened ever so slightly allowing a few women access to the tools (you know, stuff that previously wasn't supposed to be all that important for women like being able to read and write, freely communicate with others, learn about politics and economics etc.) that allowed them to begin to expose and define the characteristics of a system of oppression.)
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
For example, although not many people in such a society will hunt for subsistence, the job of going out into the workplace and "bringing home the bacon" is still seen as a man's job. The job of tending the home and raising children is still seen as a woman's job.
I agree with some of this. I agree that, despite the advances in gender equality, there is often an expectation that the man be the breadwinner. To what extent this is still important to individual people has to do with many factors, including their culture, how they were raised, what makes them happy ... all of the "entire rest of life" stuff you mentioned. I think a lot of men are too proud to let their wives be the breadwinner in the household even if it is not in their family's best interest. I think a lot of women still want to concentrate on home and family and that is nothing to be ashamed of. In the "community" I move through I am seeing more and more guys being ok staying at home to take care of the kids if their wife has the passion and/or earning power to be better equipped to serve as the family's breadwinner. Most of my friends are white, educated (and intellectually curious) and progressive minded. I wouldn't expect to see men in certain other societal groups be as ok as I do with the one I am familiar with. I think that this will become more and more common though across all social strata.
So I am basically with you there as well. Here is where I start to depart.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 30, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
When one looks at how this benefits or harms men and women, the tendency is to point at the workplace, recognize inequality between men and women in the workplace, and conclude that women are oppressed by "the patriarchy." But this way of thinking is, in my opinion, overly simplistic and narrow. It is subject to criticism for disregarding the entire rest of life.
If we define the primary problem with "The Patriarchy" as the ugly reality that women, on average, do not make as much as a man and do not have as many opportunities for advancement as their male counterparts within the workforce that is still something that is worth fighting to change (and I know you are with me here so let's take that as a given.) The problem is that it doesn't just live in the workplace. It is everywhere when you stop for just a second and look for it.
It is in the way we still feel it is ok to sexualize a woman's body as an object in a way that we don't really do with men. (When it is done to a man it is the exception - not the societal norm.) When Miley Cyrus completed the final act in her ascension to the pop throne formerly occupied by Britney Spears, she took it in much the same way Britney took it from Madonna - by letting herself be sexualized. You can argue that was her choice and that she was just sexulizing herself (or she was just letting us see her sexual nature.) You would be right. But we don't see guys having to do this. Daft Punk ruled the Grammy's and they don't even let us see their faces. At the Grammy's a male entertainer was able to generate a ton of publicity just based on the fact that he wore a certain hat.
I am going to stick with music for just a bit (because I am a music geek). Although I know I might be sounding like I think I am all "high and mighty" or enlightened someway I assure you I am not. Most of the musicians I admire and enjoy have their careers built largely out of misogyny. I admit I am "of a certain generation" that I can remember when it was "hip" to like Elvis Costello. I am STILL a fan of his early albums where pretty much all he does is spill his venom upon women in song after song after song. One exception is his semi famous ballad "Alison" where he briefly pauses to croon a few sympathetic words toward a woman he hadn't seen in a long time (an ex girlfriend?). After expressing his disappointment that she had dishonored herself sexually, Costello, the lyricist, uses deliberately ambiguous language that can be interpreted as saying that, because she has dishonored herself and the world is already killing her, maybe the best thing is just to get it all over with quickly and "put out the big light" for her. He wants to stop her saying more "silly things" ever again because he can't stand it to hear them. He concludes by assuring her, "My aim is true." What is he singing about? Sex? Murder? Both?)
If I stopped listening to songs with a misogynistic message that would mean I would have to drastically reduce my music library and give up a lot of music that I love but only now am beginning to recognize as sinister and creepy. I am not sure I am going to do that. Right now I would say it is doubtful. I am not proud of this.
I could go on and on with just music alone, but other examples are obvious too. Even though every few years there seems to be an outbreak of people telling girls and women that "your body is ok the way it is" before getting back to the business of selling a notion of beauty that is often only possible through plastic surgery and/or starvation. Women die this way. There are ads directed toward men who want to maintain their looks, but it usually directed towards things that are actually healthful - good diet, fitness ... that sort of stuff. (I don't want to leave out the boner pills but that isn't necessarily about looks. Not sure how healthy they are - those 4 hour erections they mention in the disclaimer still manage to scare even me - even though ...)
I am fading fast and need to sign off. I love this video -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOjNcZvwjxI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOjNcZvwjxI)
Lastly, I want to say that the forces behind the patriarchy do not treat all men equal. Some men get sniffed out as "lesser men" due to many factors, including perceived lack of masculinity in appearance and or mannerisms. I KNOW you have seen this but I have to use the following video as an example of what I am talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFtjAZRURrY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFtjAZRURrY)
In the end I know you are just tossing ideas around, and yes there are a lot of conditions that unfairly elevate some members of our society over others. (That is a whole other discussion that I am equally passionate about.) I also see that you acknowledge that the patriarchy has a major impact on all of our lives. However your challenging my statement (that the patriarchy's stranglehold on society is "paid for" largely at the expense of women) was helpful. When I made originally made the statement it felt awkward because I have never actually said it before. I too wondered if I might be guilty of being "overly simplistic". But when I run through it again I see with even greater clarity that it is not overly simplistic at all. It is just expressing a fundamental reality that I have largely chosen not to think about too much.
I think gender is dumb and I wish males and females were all mentally the same. Then we wouldn't need gender. :)
i see the necessity of gender. it wouldn't exist if it weren't historically beneficial to our species.
us quirky cases really are exceptions. all of us who don't fit in, by being something other than cis and hetero.
but us quirky cases existing, probably is a good thing for the species. it may be that some of the qualities that come with non-hetero or trans* actually will be needed in the future. genetics is an interesting thing where there is often a yin/yang effect to different traits. like how the gene that gives immunity to malaria can also cause sickle cell anemia, but it's still really common because malaria would kill more.
currently, gender is so deeply genetically programmed in humans that we can't just socially deconstruct it. several future generations choosing people with less gender to propagate with, would be needed to make gender unimportant to people. whether that will happen is impossible for us to know. we can only do the best we can, live our lives as happily as possible. and if we all manage to get partners with the same lack of cis-hetero-ness, and get many kids, and a higher percentage of their generation turns out to be less cis-hetero...
but i won't live for a thousand years even.
Quote from: suzifrommd on January 30, 2014, 07:08:49 AM
We are wired to figure out what gender people are. It's pretty much required for the propagation of the species, so it's a very powerful impulse, one that that I don't think can be overridden consciously. I think intellectually people can understand non-binary gender or agender but emotionally, we are so programmed to expect people to be gendered, that it's a hard pill to swallow.
i don't think the wiring is to figure out what gender people are, really.
at least i can't relate to that at all. boy or girl never mattered to me. there are certain personality traits that attract me, which can be found in either gender or non-gender. there are physical traits that attract me, which can be fairly gender specific, but that's only because of biology. or i like to believe that.
still, i can't deny that i treat people differently according to something that seems to do with gender. if someone comes off as a woman, i'll treat them differently. but my way of defining this seems a little flawed, as some females would not be sen as women, while some males would. can't find out what the reason is, but i blame it on the gender blindness that often comes with pansexuality.
When I go to certain places, I make sure to wear a fake engagement ring. The one time I forgot it, it took about an hour to get asked out. I'm not interested in dating anyone, so I'm not on the market. But it sometimes bothers me that my symbol of "I'm not on the market, leave me alone" is actually a symbol that means "I belong to some other guy, leave me alone."
Your (retransition) point about the sexualization of women is well taken. But I think that if you are not Miley Cyrus, then things manifest in quite a bit different way.
But not withstanding that single issue, I still think that life is a lot more complicated. I've written elsewhere at great length on this, and given one of my favorite examples of interplay between male and female privileges and drawbacks.
Having lived on the male side of the fence for a while, I would say that life is a lot better now. But some of that is about "fit" and about the extra sanction given for being perceived as both male and highly gender non-conforming. Since living on this side of the fence "fits," of course it is better for me. And since people perceived as male are sanctioned much more heavily for violating gender norms, of course I'm happier now that no one is physically attacking me for being perceived as a male-but-something's-not-quite-right-about-that-guy-who-gives-off-a-very-female-vibe.
There are confirmed biological differences between many MTFs and other biological males. This image is from my blog and shows the radical physical structural differences of just one region of the brain in MTFs versus heterosexual or homosexual males. It also provides a comparison to a biological heterosexual female and the brains structures are far closer to the female structure than to any male structure.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)
The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. There are at least 8 other regions that exhibit similar structural differences (MTF region resembles the bio female region and nothing like a male region, hetero or homosexual).
Likewise in FTMs, there are multiple regions of the brain that show "male" structure instead of female structure.
There is now strong evidence that gender is a biological construct and it is based in the brain.
Further notes:
1. At birth, 1 in 30,000 females is XY.
2. At birth, approximately 1 in 100,000 males is XX.
3. Klinefelter's babies, XXY - what are they? Male or female? For a long time the belief was all Klinefelter's babies were males with strong feminine body types. Then they began to find Klinefelter's females, some of whom have given birth.
4. Some ancient cultures recognized as many as 6 different genders.
5. The code of Hammurabi contains laws for fair and equitable treatment of "male daughters".
In my opinion, gender is not a binary at all, based on the above evidence and even more. Society tries to treat it as a binary but biologically it is not.
Gender is biological, in your mind, and also socially too. People tend to group things into male and female even if there are unrelated into biology. The need to categorize in in our mind to organize things out. I think as a whole society over genders itself.
This reminds me of something ... if it weren't for "quirky cases" and men taking on female roles or women taking on male roles, history would need to be rewritten. For instance, there were plenty of women throughout history who were warriors or leaders (some quite respected). So if we look at the whole of human history, there has been a lot of variation on gender roles as well as the importance of gender itself. We're just currently dealing with the latest iteration of it. And unfortunately, from what I can see, plenty of people still associate anyone who is outside of the gender "norm" as a freak and/or someone they have cart blanch to ridicule. I suspect (hope) this will change over time, much like society's general view of homosexuality has changed over time. Then maybe someday I could stand in line at the grocery store and all the tabloids won't be making fun of the latest person in the public eye who comes out as trans.
Quote from: retransition on February 03, 2014, 02:10:21 AM
Great post and I agree with much of it - especially the quote I am pulling. This is why I personally am not comfortable with the usage of the term "cisgendered" (or "cis"). To me that kind of language reinforces a false narrative that only people who declare themselves "trans" have ever struggled with gender identity related issues. I think that many (not necessarily all) people have had situations or thoughts or even periods of their lives where they felt some discomfort in being their gender. Labeling the full spectrum of how people relate to gender using a crudely primitive classification of "cis" or "trans" to me is not useful and creates an entirely new binary that's actual existence is debatable. The cis/trans binary certainly makes it easier to reinforce stereotypes that further divide people instead of bringing them closer.
I totally believe this too. I really don't like the term. I use it on here because it's a way for people to immediately know what you're talking about. Generally I don't like catch-all terms because they're just that. They don't consider there's variation or a spectrum to damn near everything.
Quote from: LizMarie on February 03, 2014, 05:06:51 PM
There are confirmed biological differences between many MTFs and other biological males. This image is from my blog and shows the radical physical structural differences of just one region of the brain in MTFs versus heterosexual or homosexual males. It also provides a comparison to a biological heterosexual female and the brains structures are far closer to the female structure than to any male structure.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)
The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. There are at least 8 other regions that exhibit similar structural differences (MTF region resembles the bio female region and nothing like a male region, hetero or homosexual).
Likewise in FTMs, there are multiple regions of the brain that show "male" structure instead of female structure.
There is now strong evidence that gender is a biological construct and it is based in the brain.
Further notes:
1. At birth, 1 in 30,000 females is XY.
2. At birth, approximately 1 in 100,000 males is XX.
3. Klinefelter's babies, XXY - what are they? Male or female? For a long time the belief was all Klinefelter's babies were males with strong feminine body types. Then they began to find Klinefelter's females, some of whom have given birth.
4. Some ancient cultures recognized as many as 6 different genders.
5. The code of Hammurabi contains laws for fair and equitable treatment of "male daughters".
In my opinion, gender is not a binary at all, based on the above evidence and even more. Society tries to treat it as a binary but biologically it is not.
This is interesting stuff and I hope more research is done into this as time goes on.
I still personally believe that I'm intersex, and not just transsexual because of some variations in my physiology and of course my brain (and the fact that I was subjected to very high amounts of testosterone while in the womb). But where does that get me? I guess finding out what was going on with my mom when she was pregnant with me at least gave me something to make sense of it all. It was a validation that, no, the therapists were wrong and I'm not just some mixed up "girl" who "only thinks she's a boy". Perhaps for others, it could bring validation too and in the larger scientific community it could exemplify that there's even more variation to the XX ----- XY spectrum and that, quite possibly, some of these variations are not "accidents" or abnormalities but could actually be considered normal. That could then trickle down into society so that every women without an hour glass figure and a large chest, every man with "softer" features, every person somewhere "in between" genders, and every person who's brain gender doesn't match their body's would be treated like a normal human being.
Quote from: LizMarie on February 03, 2014, 05:06:51 PM
There are confirmed biological differences between many MTFs and other biological males. This image is from my blog and shows the radical physical structural differences of just one region of the brain in MTFs versus heterosexual or homosexual males. It also provides a comparison to a biological heterosexual female and the brains structures are far closer to the female structure than to any male structure.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)
The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. There are at least 8 other regions that exhibit similar structural differences (MTF region resembles the bio female region and nothing like a male region, hetero or homosexual).
Likewise in FTMs, there are multiple regions of the brain that show "male" structure instead of female structure.
There is now strong evidence that gender is a biological construct and it is based in the brain.
Further notes:
1. At birth, 1 in 30,000 females is XY.
2. At birth, approximately 1 in 100,000 males is XX.
3. Klinefelter's babies, XXY - what are they? Male or female? For a long time the belief was all Klinefelter's babies were males with strong feminine body types. Then they began to find Klinefelter's females, some of whom have given birth.
4. Some ancient cultures recognized as many as 6 different genders.
5. The code of Hammurabi contains laws for fair and equitable treatment of "male daughters".
In my opinion, gender is not a binary at all, based on the above evidence and even more. Society tries to treat it as a binary but biologically it is not.
I agree with insideontheoutside - this is really interesting stuff. We still have no idea what it means but I agree there needs to be more research. The people who are not convinced the transsexual BSTc study's hypothesis rightly argue that the sample size was so small that it is impossible to draw conclusions. I think more research has to be done.
I have to admit that up until recently I didn't really think too much about this study - I had heard about it but it was more of an "urban legend" kind of thing. I knew there was a study that some people believed showed that MTF transsexuals had "female brains" but I knew nothing beyond that. It is totally understandable that trans* people (including myself) want to have some biological evidence that validates their gender dysphoria so I took some time to look at it.
Chung W, De Vries G, Swaab D (2002). "Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood". J Neurosci 22 (3): 1027–33.
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis)
I think a lot of trans* skeptics are eager to dismiss any possible biological explanations for gender identity dysphoria as "pseudo science". I consider myself generally skeptical of everything in life so I found myself at one point falling into this "camp". But over the past six months of reading summaries of research and listening to personal stories I am beginning to be open to the possibility that some transgendered people's brains are different from their "neurotypical" natal gender peers.
So does this mean that some men are really born with women's brains and some women are born with men's brains? I am not ready to go there, primarily because even though the male and female brains develop along different paths (due to biological/hormonal and social factors) and adult male brains typically have certain characteristics that are different from females - this is not absolute. In my current personal understanding of gender (which is evolving and changing almost everyday in some way since I became re-interested in the topic) there is no "male brain" or "female brain" as much as their are characteristics that one or the other is more likely but not required to have.
Let me take this a step further. Let's say that more research is done and other scientists are able to confirm Dr. Chung's findings regarding the BSTc in MTF transwomen being much smaller than in non trans males (and they are also able to rule out HRT as being the cause of this difference.) We still don't know what this means. There was another study that analyzed the size and weight of the BSTc - but this time the research was conducted on brains of men who had a confirmed history of pedophilia. They too were in the same size range as in the transwomen's brains. Again, there wasn't a large enough sample size to make any definitive conclusions, but more research seems to be called for in this area. Even though it would be very politically incorrect, one could make the argument that there is preliminary and unconfirmed evidence that transwomen's brains are similar IN SOME REGARDS to pedophiliacs. To assume that the fact that some very preliminary evidence seems to support this as being possible, it is way too early for us to accept this as fact. It would be irresponsible to take such a stance. Is it possible that the size of the BSTc might impact our sexuality and/or perception of gender identity in some way? Maybe, but what we need is more research. (Brains! Brains! We must have BRAINS!!! Muhahaha).
Another theory that I once was very skeptical of but more and more sounds plausible to me (admitting that I am not a scientist and most of this is still way above my head) are some theories about the impact of atypical hormone exposure in utero. Some research is indicating that over exposure to testosterone while in the womb may cause that individual to develop autism spectrum related behavioral patterns. (This research is pretty easy to find on the web.) Could there be a link between gender identity disorder and autism? There seem to be high rates of individuals reporting feelings of gender dysphoria within the autism spectrum population. Does this mean that in some cases gender dysphoria might be a symptom of "autism spectrum" within some people? Or could it mean that some trans* people who are clearly not "autism spectrum" by the current definitions, none the less share some neurological anomaly with autism spectrum people that triggers feelings of dysphoria?
All of this is purely speculative of course and I am just some dude typing ->-bleeped-<- in an internet forum. A lot of what I am wondering about will turn out to be eventually confirmed as BS. But the fact is - we still don't really know. And I know that some of this stuff is really hard to talk about (it is for me and thinking about it sometimes is scary) I think we can't push these questions away into some corner because we are afraid to look at them. Human beings have proven themselves throughout our history to have a tendency of trying to bury important scientific discoveries that are not in alignment with the current preferred ways of seeing the world. Shaking things up can be scary and talking about difficult things is ... well ... difficult. I think a huge reason why this is hard to talk about is that many of us have a sense that we have some sort of incorporeal "essence" (what many call the "soul") that is some how degraded by talking about it as nothing more than a product of assorted chemical interactions and structures within our brains. I am not religious (and I told you I am a skeptic) but even I experience this sense that there is a "me" beyond my body. I will admit it feels so much better to say "I have the soul of a man" or "My soul is two spirit" or whatever than to say "My bed nucleus of my stria terminalis kinda got messed up".
But eventually we need to be ok to talk about some of this without immediately stigmatizing these discussions as forays into "transphobia" that need to be silenced. Looking at new possibilities and searching for as yet unknown paths to understanding is our responsibility. Even though the human race will hem and haw a bit (sometimes for centuries) we eventually get around to it and learn to better understand our world and ourselves. But it is also our responsibility to remember that "theories" are just that and we do a disservice to everyone when we jump the gun in accepting them as truth and use them as tools of oppression. And even when we find verifiable correlations between some biological "anomaly" and how people form their identities, we must always remember that, for these individuals, we are talking about what is to them is something no less valuable to them than their "souls". Which is another way of saying that no one should feel intimidated from presenting legitimate (even if preliminary) scientific findings but, it is my belief, that they should do what they can to do so in a socially responsible and ethical manner.
Quote from: izzy on February 03, 2014, 06:12:50 PM
Gender is biological, in your mind, and also socially too. People tend to group things into male and female even if there are unrelated into biology. The need to categorize in in our mind to organize things out. I think as a whole society over genders itself.
I agree with this, especially about the part of society over gendering itself.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 03, 2014, 05:02:41 PM
I've written elsewhere at great length on this, and given one of my favorite examples of interplay between male and female privileges and drawbacks.
Is this writing you did on this forum? Regardless, I am going to keep my reply short and take the time to read ALL of your posts to date on Susans (and try to read as much as I can within the threads to get context) so that I have a better base of understanding of your perspectives of gender and also because the ones I have read and the ones on this forum are always interesting. Next time we talk I hope I will "know" you a little bit better.
I always thought the autism thing was interesting. It makes sense for FTMs, but it seems strange for MTFs? Who should score lower on the autism traits if their brains were feminized, women have less autism traits on average. (my boyfriend who has mild Asperger's said it's like having a masculine brain, that it was good for hunters who needed to mostly be out interacting with their environment, making tools or setting traps and stuff and didn't need people skills/emotional intelligence.)
Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 03:38:54 AM
I always thought the autism thing was interesting. It makes sense for FTMs, but it seems strange for MTFs? Who should score lower on the autism traits if their brains were feminized, women have less autism traits on average. (my boyfriend who has mild Asperger's said it's like having a masculine brain, that it was good for hunters who needed to mostly be out interacting with their environment, making tools or setting traps and stuff and didn't need people skills/emotional intelligence.)
It is confusing stuff isn't it? But I think it is important to consider this - the brains of some pre-HRT self-identified MTF people may not have anything particularly "feminine" about them. What if the desire of a natal male to be female or the sense that they are female does not arise out of any innate "femininity" but actually are, in some cases, the product of a very much "masculinized" brain.
I know that some people are looking into this and I find it fascinating. A lot the latest speculation in this area is based on the (sometimes polarizing) work of Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen) (Yes Sacha is a relative, his cousin in fact) and his theory of an "extreme male brain" in autism.
Great topic and meaty posts. I have learned a lot from each contribution. Am still digesting and buzzing. Brilliant.
Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:11:44 AM
Is this writing you did on this forum? Regardless, I am going to keep my reply short and take the time to read ALL of your posts to date on Susans (and try to read as much as I can within the threads to get context) so that I have a better base of understanding of your perspectives of gender and also because the ones I have read and the ones on this forum are always interesting. Next time we talk I hope I will "know" you a little bit better.
I'm sorry, saying that is my way of saying, "I said this before, but I don't want to re type it because I'm lazy/I'm afraid of starting a fight or attracting the bullies/I don't think it's all that wise or interesting/some other reason." I guess it's a little unfair to anyone who is actually interested. :) If I say I wrote about it, that means I wrote about it here. I've posted things I published elsewhere on this forum before, but when I post those things, I never mention that I am the author, so I'd end up saying, "so-and-so mentioned in an article I posted . . . ." :)
This story is what I was referring to:
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 12:29:51 PM
They both happen on the road to Death Valley, which is one of my favorite vacation spots. I like to fly to LAX, stay the night, and then drive to Death Valley. The road I take leads through Panamint Valley, a gorgeous, but totally isolated valley that is very similar to Death Valley itself. Very hot desert, hardly any people around, and no cell phone service. And both of me (the male and female versions) have been there.
One year, female me went and saw wild flowers growing in the Panamint valley. I pulled over to take some photos. At the moment I started to get out of the car, another car was passing in the opposite direction. Immediately the blinker came on and the (male) driver started to pull off the road right behind me. I figured that this likely meant that he thought I had broken down and was stopping to help. So I held up my camera where he could see it and realize I had just stopped to take photos. The turn signal promptly went off and he kept going on his way. Now, of course, there's another possibility. The image of damsel in distress could have looked more like a potential victim. If he had stopped and gotten out when I held up my camera, I would have gotten back in the car, started it, and left because of worry about my safety.
Another year, male me went and actually did get in trouble in the Panamint Valley. I had pulled over to take photos of the area on a particularly gorgeous day. When I tried to leave, my car got stuck in the sand and gravel on the side of the road in about 110 degree heat. A few other cars did pass by while I was trying to get unstuck. But no one stopped to help. Eventually I did get myself unstuck and I continued on my way. And of course eventually someone probably would have stopped. But I would not have had to wait long in that heat to be injured by it and it's very questionable whether anyone would have stopped by then. But when eventually someone did stop, it would be less likely that they would try to harm me.
It's interesting to me that these two experiences are basically mirror images of one another. The possibilities are basically binary: someone either stops or they don't. But the outcomes are opposite: someone is more likely to stop in one case, but the risk is greater if they do. In the other case, someone is less likely to stop, but the risk associated with the stopping itself is lesser.
I understand privilege and detriment to be about how others treat you better or worse in a different situation. Experiencing those privileges and detriments is only one part of learning to be in the world. But it is a substantial part of it. So which version of me was more privileged here? I'm not sure. It seems to me that the greater likelihood of someone stopping for female-me is a female privilege that could have saved my life in other circumstances. But the possibility of being raped is a female detriment that could have severely damaged or even ended my life. The lesser likelihood of someone stopping for male me is a male detriment that could severely damaged or even ended my life. But the lesser likelihood of being raped by someone who did stop was a male privilege. So each version of me, based on gender, had a different privilege and a different detriment. But which was more privileged? I honestly have no idea. So how does male privilege fit in here?
One of the reasons I like Death Valley is for stargazing. But my mother taught me to be very careful when out in the dark. Always park near a street lamp (there are none in Death Valley). When you get back in the car, look to make sure no one is inside waiting for you. That sort of thing, and I could go on. So being out to look at the sky is both awe inspiring (the sky is so clear that you see things you may never have seen before) and scary (being out in the dead of night). I stay safe by staying in the car, rolling down the window, and laying my head on the side of the window to look straight up. That way if something happens, I can leave fast. In fact, every time I've been out stargazing, I have left because I heard a noise and was afraid. I have yet to leave because I'm finished. That was true whether it as guy-me or gal-me.
Maybe if I had been socialized in a more masculine way, I would have the bravado of many men that I have heard: the ones who say they'll beat up or shoot anyone who messes with them. Unlike many of those people, I actually do have an advanced belt in the martial arts (at one time that was my chosen form of exercise). But I don't have that kind of confidence or bravado. Frankly I don't think I'm that foolish. But it also keeps me from doing things that would be stupid and get me assaulted or killed. So how do male/female privileges and detriments fit in here? Would it be overly provocative to suggest that being taught to be foolish and willing to charge into a fight or stand your ground is a male detriment because it is more likely to cause someone to end up injured or dead?
I guess I should also pause here to admit that despite the time I spent living as a supposedly male person, I do not actually know very much about men. So for all the bravado and bluster, I have no idea how many men would really stand their ground like that. The only thing I know is that hearing the talk of that sounds really stupid. For all I know, they might leave just as I did, but not want to admit it. :)
I see gender as part of a three part wheel. you have the gender you feel like, the biological sex you are, and how you act. Cis people never think about any of that. That would include feminine gay males and such. The problem occurs when you feel that your set doesn't match in your own mind and you feel the drive to change one. No one thing is easy to change. For example in how you act. It's the little things you don't think about. For me it's how you cross your legs or hold a cigarette. Until recently I had to put real thought into crossing my legs like a guy. I gave up doing that. Other things have been pointed out to me that I do since I came out to a few people.
Allow me to recommend the following blog, A.E Brain (http://aebrain.blogspot.com/search/label/Brains), which has a massive summary of transgender brain related research with appropriate links. Some of you may enjoy diving in there and not coming up for a while.
The evidence is now overwhelming that brain differences are real, are caused by hormonal fluctuations in the womb especially over the first 16 weeks of pregnancy when so many critical brain structures get their basic formation.
Please also view this January 2011 AMA Webcast (http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html)about transsexuality, homosexuality, and hormonal impacts on brain development and brain structure differences. The Webcast is about an hour long but well worth viewing.
Thanks for sharing these resources - I am going to check them out.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 04, 2014, 08:53:09 AM
I'm sorry, saying that is my way of saying, "I said this before, but I don't want to re type it because I'm lazy/I'm afraid of starting a fight or attracting the bullies/I don't think it's all that wise or interesting/some other reason." I guess it's a little unfair to anyone who is actually interested. :) If I say I wrote about it, that means I wrote about it here. I've posted things I published elsewhere on this forum before, but when I post those things, I never mention that I am the author, so I'd end up saying, "so-and-so mentioned in an article I posted . . . ." :)
Yeah I still want to catch up. Thanks though for sharing the death valley stories. I am south of LA so down in San Diego our desert is the Anza Borrego. I too enjoy star gazing and just getting lost in the magnitude of it all. When I was young in San Diego (long long time ago) I could see the Milky Way sometimes at night. That quickly became impossible. But then, as a young adult in the desert I can remember how amazing it was to "rediscover" it again for myself—I had pretty much forgotten about being able to see it.
I totally "get" how your story about the two experiences in the desert can be interpreted as a privilege. Having someone stop to help you when you are in a jam can be really great. It is sad that more men don't stop to help fellow men (although there are a lot of guys who do). There are a few downsides though to what you describe as "female privilege" and I think you must have felt this when seeing the car coming toward you to ask if you need help. I think a lot of women (for good reason) are terrified when they see that car coming because they know that they are now especially vulnerable for sexual assault and murder. Before I transitioned (and was unambiguously recognizable as a male) I did see a few women seeming to be in some distress by the side of the road and I would stop but would always park a few lengths ahead and would ask from there if she needed anything. I think in all cases she had called someone or a boyfriend was getting gas or whatever.
I guess what I am saying is that this "privilege" is a two headed coin. When a woman's car breaks down, in some situations it can be a life or death situation simply because she is female. And I think that some of the men who stop to assist do so because they are aware of this and are genuinely concerned for her safety (they know they are the "good guy" but of course the woman can never be sure of this.)
I think all of us are at risk when we go to secluded areas alone. Women much more so than men, but both sexes are always to some degree at risk. I have some male friends who go to the desert alone and I would be too terrified to ever do this myself even when I was presenting male (the first time.) I have joined my local Sierra Club and now go on group outings. Good stuff.
ThePhoenix, I think you forgot to consider that you retained some male privilege presenting as a girl... the privilege of having been socialized in such a way that you would even consider doing things like that independently. Y'know? I had a more (dogmatic) female-ish socialization (be proper, polite, accommodating, thin, modest, unselfish, don't be opinionated, don't be vulgar, don't be unsociable, don't be private, don't be assertive) and personally I can't even imagine going to the movies or a restaurant alone, I would feel overwhelmed, uncomfortable and anxious, not to mention a little indecent. I just have never experienced the independence in my life to teach me that being alone and doing things for myself can be safe and rewarding. I don't trust myself to be able to handle new situations because I've never been given responsibilities to learn from. Just my 2c (:
Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
Yeah I still want to catch up. Thanks though for sharing the death valley stories. I am south of LA so down in San Diego our desert is the Anza Borrego. I too enjoy star gazing and just getting lost in the magnitude of it all. When I was young in San Diego (long long time ago) I could see the Milky Way sometimes at night. That quickly became impossible. But then, as a young adult in the desert I can remember how amazing it was to "rediscover" it again for myself—I had pretty much forgotten about being able to see it.
I've never seen the Milky Way. :( That's a big part of why I keep going to Death Valley. I want to see it and that's supposed to be one if the best places to do it. Plus I spent a lot of time in the desert when I was little. Going there is like returning home and nourishing my spirit. When the treatment at my work got particularly severe, the psychiatrist I was seeing talked about hospitalizing me because of it, but ultimately I went out there and that was considered good enough.
Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
I guess what I am saying is that this "privilege" is a two headed coin. When a woman's car breaks down, in some situations it can be a life or death situation simply because she is female. And I think that some of the men who stop to assist do so because they are aware of this and are genuinely concerned for her safety (they know they are the "good guy" but of course the woman can never be sure of this.)
I agree completely. Actually the point of telling those two stories was to illustrate the two heads of that coin. Like I said, there is both a privilege and a detriment there. The male privilege is that anyone who stopped was less likely to try and make me a victim. The male detriment is that it was a lot less likely someone would have stopped in the first place. The female privilege is that someone was more likely to stop. The female detriment is that it was more likely that the person who did stop might see me as easy prey. I'm not sure who has it better or worse in a situation like that. I suspect it might all really even out in the end.
Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
I think all of us are at risk when we go to secluded areas alone. Women much more so than men, but both sexes are always to some degree at risk. I have some male friends who go to the desert alone and I would be too terrified to ever do this myself even when I was presenting male (the first time.) I have joined my local Sierra Club and now go on group outings. Good stuff.
I grew up in a military family and was raised by parents from the desert southwest (New Mexico and Arizona). When you grow up that way, travel is just a way of life and going alone is no big deal. And with all the time I spent on long, long trips visiting my parents' families, the desert really is an old friend in a way. Although I am always very cautious when I go. Leaving L.A. involves stopping for a case of bottled water and several bags of fruit, plus sunblock and so on.
Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
ThePhoenix, I think you forgot to consider that you retained some male privilege presenting as a girl... the privilege of having been socialized in such a way that you would even consider doing things like that independently. Y'know?
I really hate explaining my history over and over and over when people make erroneous assumptions, so I'm going to skip that part. But see above regarding how and where I was raised. Suffice to say that my mother is far more adventurous in her solo travels than I am. And she and I are far from being the only women that I've ever met who are like that. I think fear of going places alone has more to do with fear of traveling in general than with gender. I'm also not sure that a form of socialization that would make you more likely to end up in dangerous situations fits within my understanding of the word privilege. It's hard to fathom that something that makes you more likely to die is a privilege.
I will say that mentioning "my male socialization" to anyone who knows me well offline is a good way to make people laugh. But I'm going to leave discussion of my history at that.
Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
I had a more (dogmatic) female-ish socialization (be proper, polite, accommodating, thin, modest, unselfish, don't be opinionated, don't be vulgar, don't be unsociable, don't be private, don't be assertive)
Yes, these were all very central to my upbringing too, and I agree that they are usually stressed more for women than men. I'm (theoretically if trans*ness had not ended my work) in a profession that is all about being an out spoken lawyer and advocate where sometimes being the loudest advocate matters. I have had to learn to make a strength of being unassuming, soft spoken, and quiet. But even so, it's not great to hear yourself described in a room full of your blustering, loud, belligerent colleagues as "our quiet and demure colleague." Especially not when you're supposed to be one of the guys keeping up with the big boys.
Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
and personally I can't even imagine going to the movies or a restaurant alone, I would feel overwhelmed, uncomfortable and anxious, not to mention a little indecent. I just have never experienced the independence in my life to teach me that being alone and doing things for myself can be safe and rewarding. I don't trust myself to be able to handle new situations because I've never been given responsibilities to learn from. Just my 2c (:
I am sorry that you were brought up in a way that led to that. But again, I don't think that it is particularly a male or female thing. Women seem to do just as well as men at handling new situations, living independently, etc.
Y'know what, I'm really sorry if I misunderstood you or made too many assumptions. :)
Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 09:30:02 PM
Y'know what, I'm really sorry if I misunderstood you or made too many assumptions. :)
No worries. :)
I just don't like it when people assume that I fit the usual born male, transitioned to female story. I understand why people make that assumption, but my story is more complicated than that and involves some atypical medical stuff and so on (like the fact that I've always been pretty forthright about having taken both T and E in the past--I will go that far). Even I find it confusing and don't understand it fully. At one time I thought I did, but that did not last long . . . But I also don't really like to talk about it either. One thing I notice about my posts is that I think I say relatively little about myself. So I guess it's kind of unfair for me to be frustrated when people don't get it that there's something a little different going on with me. I guess that's part of why I like discussing with retransition so much. We don't have exactly the same story, but we have some things in common and he's one of the few who seems to grasp the meaning behind my posts. We also seem to be at similar places in thinking things through about ourselves and our journeys. :) Having him around is a real benefit to me and I hope I'm able to benefit him too.
No, I completely understand, and I feel horrible for having made assumptions when assumptions bother me too and make it hard to participate in the trans community often. Ack. Sometimes I get emotional and self-centered and don't think what I am saying through! :-\ I was off on a limb and it didn't even make sense. I mean for one, I was raised as a boy myself, it's just that my dad wanted a girl instead of a boy and was incredibly controlling, and I've never escaped this dainty, victorian, helpless dependent girl sort of lifestyle, so I (over-)identify with a lot of the learned helplessness and neediness that can culturally affect women. Anyway, I've always been mystified by independent people, and it's a trait I probably wrongly associate with maleness, which could be just me projecting anyway.
I like this forum too! I like the idea of retransition, which is something I want to do but also having physical issues I don't know if it's possible for me to pass as male and I don't know if I could handle the role, which is something I've never truly experienced.
So that's my story... sorry again. Just wanted to say at least in some roundabout way I could identify with why my post was really frustrating to you.
Kia Ora Re,
Just out of interest...When you start your day (any day) is gender identity on your mind ? Do you feel anxious about how people are going to react to your somewhat androgynous appearance?
I hope you don't mind my nosy nature...I'm just trying to gauge how far along in your retransition you are ...
Metta Zenda :)
I started to write a post about my own difficulties passing and assimilating as a guy. But maybe it's more helpful to just point out that when we speak of male versus female socialization, we are speaking of very complex things that are impacted by a lot more than just gender.
For example, aside from gender socialization, I was also socialized as a lawyer by three years in law school plus coming up on ten years as a member of the bar. I may be the "demure" colleague around a bunch of guys who are doing their posturing and such. But having my writing critiqued constantly has squeezed out a lot of hesitation and made me a much more assertive writer. I kept a notebook of poetry and "poetic prose" that I wrote when I was in high school. I'm not sure I could do that now. I think that kind of feeling is a lot harder for me to express these days and I really doubt that I could remember how to write flowery.
If one were to assign a gender to the way I write, I'd be very surprised if they said anything other than male. But knowing what I just explained . . . is it that I am writing male or is it that I'm writing lawyer?
I am probably the absolute worst person in the world to say this . . . And I know nothing about how you look or anything. But I think you'd find there is a lot of variation within genders. There are plenty of skinny, slim guys and lots of hulking, huge women (think Coach Beast from Glee). And there's a lot of role variation too . . . I think you'd find plenty of variation in learned roles too. There are sensitive, gentle men, and hard assed women. So . . . If it is what you really want and what will make your life make the most sense, I suspect that you'd find you could do it. As long as you're being true to who you are, I would bet your chances of finding a way to make it work would be good. :)
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 04, 2014, 10:32:29 PM
I started to write a post about my own difficulties passing and assimilating as a guy. But maybe it's more helpful to just point out that when we speak of male versus female socialization, we are speaking of very complex things that are impacted by a lot more than just gender.
For example, aside from gender socialization, I was also socialized as a lawyer by three years in law school plus coming up on ten years as a member of the bar. I may be the "demure" colleague around a bunch of guys who are doing their posturing and such. But having my writing critiqued constantly has squeezed out a lot of hesitation and made me a much more assertive writer. I kept a notebook of poetry and "poetic prose" that I wrote when I was in high school. I'm not sure I could do that now. I think that kind of feeling is a lot harder for me to express these days and I really doubt that I could remember how to write flowery.
If one were to assign a gender to the way I write, I'd be very surprised if they said anything other than male. But knowing what I just explained . . . is it that I am writing male or is it that I'm writing lawyer?
I am probably the absolute worst person in the world to say this . . . And I know nothing about how you look or anything. But I think you'd find there is a lot of variation within genders. There are plenty of skinny, slim guys and lots of hulking, huge women (think Coach Beast from Glee). And there's a lot of role variation too . . . I think you'd find plenty of variation in learned roles too. There are sensitive, gentle men, and hard assed women. So . . . If it is what you really want and what will make your life make the most sense, I suspect that you'd find you could do it. As long as you're being true to who you are, I would bet your chances of finding a way to make it work would be good. :)
That makes a lot of sense, about lawyer socialization :)
I can only imagine that that's a huge character building experience... both going through law school and then surviving the job itself. It sounds very intimidating, but it also sounds like it was worth it?
I'm working to piece apart my socialization and become functional, so I really like the idea that you can choose to enter a new socialization. :) I've never had a job, but I know that once I do it will probably change me a lot as well. It is a constant struggle to advocate for myself and communicate that I want to be more independent when my boyfriend is happy to replace the role my dad used to fill... (not that I blame him for that, he just wants to provide for me, but he doesn't understand how it feels to be chronically without any autonomy.)
Unfortunately, I'm positive that I would struggle to pass as a boy if I were truly myself. I lived full time as a girl before taking any hormones and never was gendered male. :( It's not that I feel like a boy, I just came to accept that being trans makes me unhappy, I can't force myself to be happy with it, and I happen to have been born as male so that's the only way I can be cis. I still don't totally understand/feel the concept of gender identity in either direction (though I strongly ID with femininity!) and, yep, I just prefer to be cis regardless of gender. But, having a difficult constellation of features and a weak response to testosterone, I would certainly have to make a LOT of concessions in terms of who I am to have even an iffy pass rate, it definitely wouldn't be who I truly am.. so it's very confusing!! D:
Umh, I'm not trying to get off on a tangent/off-topic, sorry lol :) I guess I'm just saying that this is why I struggle with assumptions too, because people don't always get the right mental picture of me when they hear MTF. I don't mean that like I could *never ever* pass as a boy, just I would absolutely have to become a stereotype to do it, you know?? Which would feel just as uncomfortable as being trans is for me... so I never know where I stand. I really think it's lovely that more freedom of gender expression is becoming acceptable lately, and maybe if I lived in a big city it would even be possible! But I'm in a sort of farm-y, semi-rural pocket of the east coast, only barely out of the south, and I just don't see it happening here... I couldn't even pass as a boy in plain, baggy men's clothes here simply because I take care of my hair.
OK, I'm done blabbering about me :-X
I wonder though, how many people's transition/de/retransition experience is physically motivated?? Sometimes I feel alone with my set of issues, but this forum comes closest for me to where I am at right now. It's refreshing to hear new perspectives and I think it's awesome that people have the courage to learn from their transition and use that to keep growing :)
Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 11:45:41 PM
Umh, I'm not trying to get off on a tangent/off-topic, sorry lol :) I guess I'm just saying that this is why I struggle with assumptions too, because people don't always get the right mental picture of me when they hear MTF. I don't mean that like I could *never ever* pass as a boy, just I would absolutely have to become a stereotype to do it, you know?? Which would feel just as uncomfortable as being trans is for me... so I never know where I stand. I really think it's lovely that more freedom of gender expression is becoming acceptable lately, and maybe if I lived in a big city it would even be possible! But I'm in a sort of farm-y, semi-rural pocket of the east coast, only barely out of the south, and I just don't see it happening here... I couldn't even pass as a boy in plain, baggy men's clothes here simply because I take care of my hair.
Within this quote above it made me think of how many trans people do go for the stereotypes and I wonder if it is because they feel in order to pass they have to become the stereotype? I guess something similar would be a non-trans (I think I like that label more than cis) person who has the appearance of the opposite gender might do the same thing – become a stereotype of their gender in order to "fit in" more? Curious questions.
Another thing it made me think of is how I've often felt that if all of my body parts matched with my brain, how much I
wouldn't care if people thought I was a women. Seems odd but most of my issues are with myself rather than society. I may have my off days where if one more person referred to me as "she" I'd want to scream but just the fact that I have no desire to socially transition or even change my name points to the fact that I care less about what other people think rather than what I think of myself.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 05, 2014, 11:03:08 PM
Within this quote above it made me think of how many trans people do go for the stereotypes and I wonder if it is because they feel in order to pass they have to become the stereotype? I guess something similar would be a non-trans (I think I like that label more than cis) person who has the appearance of the opposite gender might do the same thing – become a stereotype of their gender in order to "fit in" more? Curious questions.
Another thing it made me think of is how I've often felt that if all of my body parts matched with my brain, how much I wouldn't care if people thought I was a women. Seems odd but most of my issues are with myself rather than society. I may have my off days where if one more person referred to me as "she" I'd want to scream but just the fact that I have no desire to socially transition or even change my name points to the fact that I care less about what other people think rather than what I think of myself.
So for you it's more about your body and less about the social aspects?
I can see that. :) I'm similar and also not similar. I don't have an ideal in terms of features really, but I don't want to be in-between. So if I looked masculine, I'd try to look like a gorgeous masculine guy. But being feminine, I try to look like a pretty girl. Since I will look like a girl either no matter what I do (within my limits,) it seems better to be a pretty girl than a girl with bad skin and bushy brows.
Actually, I don't want to care about the social aspects even, and just have the freedom to be me, but I guess I am missing the strength/resolve. I don't know how to deal with the idea of telling everyone I'm a boy when everyone assumes girl. It seems tiresome. Like I've tried that with some friends, but it doesn't stick. I think they forget I'm a boy, or just don't stay conscious of it. I always feel like I just slip back into the female binary. And feel essentially forced to keep like "transitioning" which sucks as someone who really doesn't feel trans and doesn't have a gender ID or particularly want to be trans. But, as a non-transitioner, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the line between transitioning and not transitioning is frustrating!! Wish it didn't have to be so all-or-nothing. The best option I found was just to be a boy to myself, but let people assume what they want. At least then I don't feel as much like I need to over-conform to feel valid or something.
Non-trans... that works (: thank you.
Quote from: sad panda on February 06, 2014, 02:24:55 AM
So for you it's more about your body and less about the social aspects?
I can see that. :) I'm similar and also not similar. I don't have an ideal in terms of features really, but I don't want to be in-between. So if I looked masculine, I'd try to look like a gorgeous masculine guy. But being feminine, I try to look like a pretty girl. Since I will look like a girl either no matter what I do (within my limits,) it seems better to be a pretty girl than a girl with bad skin and bushy brows.
Actually, I don't want to care about the social aspects even, and just have the freedom to be me, but I guess I am missing the strength/resolve. I don't know how to deal with the idea of telling everyone I'm a boy when everyone assumes girl. It seems tiresome. Like I've tried that with some friends, but it doesn't stick. I think they forget I'm a boy, or just don't stay conscious of it. I always feel like I just slip back into the female binary. And feel essentially forced to keep like "transitioning" which sucks as someone who really doesn't feel trans and doesn't have a gender ID or particularly want to be trans. But, as a non-transitioner, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the line between transitioning and not transitioning is frustrating!! Wish it didn't have to be so all-or-nothing. The best option I found was just to be a boy to myself, but let people assume what they want. At least then I don't feel as much like I need to over-conform to feel valid or something.
Non-trans... that works (: thank you.
To be honest, "socially" I've never been a girl. I don't interact with other people in typical feminine ways. Don't have the mannerisms, etc. There have been times I've tried to fake it, but much like you seem to be, it doesn't work really. People see through that. In my case, since I'm not built like an average guy (although there are regular guys out there my size, most can grow decent facial hair!), and I'm a bit "flashy" (yes I care about fashion and yes I have a hair straightener) people default with female. But I confuse the heck out of many people. For instance, usually waiters/waitresses in restaurants never refer to me with a female pronoun, it's almost always gender neutral even if they're using gender pronouns with other people at the table. That doesn't bother me in the least though. Where I get more female pronouns is with old men, old women, or retail store clerks. I've kind of been conducting my own sociological experiment of sorts over the years with it all simply because it is interesting how others "see" gender in the world.
It does take some strength and resolve to just be yourself when that self doesn't conform to "majority rule" in society. Since I am the way I am, I almost feel like I'm naturally in-between genders, even though I mentally ID as male. My body is what it is and that is a reality for me, so I do have to deal with that. But for me personally, just accepting it as normal to be in the middle ground was kind of a key thing for me. The internal rage against reality and consequently, myself, really dissipated. I'm not struggling to
become something. I just am.
I love the statement "I am not struggling to just become something .. I just am". Since starting this journey and in particular since taking hrt my discomfort has largely disappeared and I have become far more accepting, less prescriptive and open to living in the moment. Just being is much more comfortable than struggling to stay afloat and compelled to head in a binary direction. Accepting who I am and the opportunity to self author my life experience has been in many ways a revelation and an unexpected source of joy and excitement. Gender is part of my identity but with all of its nuance and attendant stress I accept that it is an essence which is at the core of my identity and if I don't seek to define, capture, constrain or over think it then it is a wonder not a source of frustration and angst
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on February 11, 2014, 02:11:43 PM
I love the statement "I am not struggling to just become something .. I just am". Since starting this journey and in particular since taking hrt my discomfort has largely disappeared and I have become far more accepting, less prescriptive and open to living in the moment. Just being is much more comfortable than struggling to stay afloat and compelled to head in a binary direction. Accepting who I am and the opportunity to self author my life experience has been in many ways a revelation and an unexpected source of joy and excitement. Gender is part of my identity but with all of its nuance and attendant stress I accept that it is an essence which is at the core of my identity and if I don't seek to define, capture, constrain or over think it then it is a wonder not a source of frustration and angst
Aisla
I too like insideontheoutside's "I just am" quote as well as Aisla's thoughts. If you are too busy worrying about stuff you never are able to "just be". I guess the only caveat I have to ask is (and I have been thinking a lot about this) as someone who does not accept the binary for yourself are there any situations where you feel it is appropriate to adhere to society's expectations of a binary?
Quote from: retransition on February 12, 2014, 02:04:48 PM
I too like insideontheoutside's "I just am" quote as well as Aisla's thoughts. If you are too busy worrying about stuff you never are able to "just be". I guess the only caveat I have to ask is (and I have been thinking a lot about this) as someone who does not accept the binary for yourself are there any situations where you feel it is appropriate to adhere to society's expectations of a binary?
There are times when adhering to the binary can help with acquiring things, appeasing people, or avoiding confrontation. I'm very much starting to enjoy this gender fluid concept!
Quote from: brianna1016 on February 12, 2014, 03:53:38 PM
There are times when adhering to the binary can help with acquiring things, appeasing people, or avoiding confrontation. I'm very much starting to enjoy this gender fluid concept!
I think as long as you are respecting other people's boundaries you should be able to present however you wish.
Quote from: retransition on February 12, 2014, 02:04:48 PM
I too like insideontheoutside's "I just am" quote as well as Aisla's thoughts. If you are too busy worrying about stuff you never are able to "just be". I guess the only caveat I have to ask is (and I have been thinking a lot about this) as someone who does not accept the binary for yourself are there any situations where you feel it is appropriate to adhere to society's expectations of a binary?
For me personally I feel that not declaring to everyone, "I am male" is my own kind of acquiescence. From a legal standpoint, my documentation declares I'm "female". My documentation does not define who I really am though. It's just paperwork ... a mere technicality. That and utilizing gendered public spaces (restrooms, spas ...) is probably the only way I "conform" (not a fan of that word haha) to binary society.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 15, 2014, 02:35:29 PM
For me personally I feel that not declaring to everyone, "I am male" is my own kind of acquiescence.
So you are saying that because you don't choose to declare something, that does not mean that you have renounced it either, right? (If not please correct me.)
I was thinking about saying a few other things in the DBT thread as a response to you so maybe I will say them here instead.
When someone says they are "male" - their definition of what it means to be male is going to always be unique to their own experience and perceptions. Of course there are common characteristics that we can all agree most males share, but when you are defining the essence of what "maleness" means for you - your answer is going to be yours alone, just as my definition is mine alone.
A (possibly) related side-story. I can remember specifically the last time I felt myself self-identifying as a "female". It was actually very close to the start of my retransition. I was in a trans support group, mosty MTF, and everyone was talking about getting facial feminization surgery or learning how to change their mannerisms and all the usual stuff. And I can remember thinking - I don't want any of that stuff - I just want to "be". I don't need any of that to be who I am. In a way that was the most "feminine" I ever felt - the decision to sort of walk away.
And then, as time went by, I began to realize that what I had been calling my "female gender identity" wasn't really "female" at all. It was just myself at my most pure and honest. I didn't need to "assign" it a gender identity, in fact, feeling the need to assign it ANY label (even if it was just a private self-declaration) was actually limiting.
That is the part of me that I am still trying to cultivate and grow, just as so many other travellers of life's journey have also done. I feel that it is a part of me (and all of us) that is beyond anything as relatively trivial as gender.
POLITICALLY INCORRECT CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT WARNING
Quote from: retransition on February 22, 2014, 02:40:35 AM
A (possibly) related side-story. I can remember specifically the last time I felt myself self-identifying as a "female". It was actually very close to the start of my retransition. I was in a trans support group, mosty MTF, and everyone was talking about getting facial feminization surgery or learning how to change their mannerisms and all the usual stuff. And I can remember thinking - I don't want any of that stuff - I just want to "be". I don't need any of that to be who I am. In a way that was the most "feminine" I ever felt - the decision to sort of walk away.
And then, as time went by, I began to realize that what I had been calling my "female gender identity" wasn't really "female" at all. It was just myself at my most pure and honest. I didn't need to "assign" it a gender identity, in fact, feeling the need to assign it ANY label (even if it was just a private self-declaration) was actually limiting.
In this post, you have pretty much nailed something about the transgender community that I have struggled with since the 1990s without resolving. I often see trans* people trying to learn to act a certain way, alter their mannerisms, and so on. I see this overwhelmingly with transwomen and a lot less with transmen. The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it. It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.
It has always seemed to me that part of the secret to passing, or to just being in the world, is to just be. This, on the other hand, seems like someone is pretending. I cannot imagine that it would be comfortable. And I find myself wondering what is the point of going through something as profound and life altering as transition if the person cannot just be real at the end of it.
I have had trans* people say to me that I will never understand because of how naturally everything about being a woman comes to me. Well, okay . . . but trying to be a guy certainly did not come naturally to me. But I still never took lessons on manner and such. I just tried to just be and just be real. Even if it did lead to awkward moments (as in, "Okay, I want to know something. How come you can do girltalk?").
So why can't we all just be real no matter where on the spectrum we fall? If you're going to do all I'd this, then doesn't it sort of defeat the point to do something that makes you seem obviously fake?
QuoteIn this post, you have pretty much nailed something about the transgender community that I have struggled with since the 1990s without resolving. I often see trans* people trying to learn to act a certain way, alter their mannerisms, and so on. I see this overwhelmingly with transwomen and a lot less with transmen. The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it. It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.
What if they aspire to have specific mannerism ? I believe with proper training, you can train your mannerism to be second nature. If they succeed, would you think their life would be more convenient in this binary society ?
Quote from: retransition on February 22, 2014, 02:40:35 AM
So you are saying that because you don't choose to declare something, that does not mean that you have renounced it either, right? (If not please correct me.)
I was thinking about saying a few other things in the DBT thread as a response to you so maybe I will say them here instead.
When someone says they are "male" - their definition of what it means to be male is going to always be unique to their own experience and perceptions. Of course there are common characteristics that we can all agree most males share, but when you are defining the essence of what "maleness" means for you - your answer is going to be yours alone, just as my definition is mine alone.
I can not renounce being myself. I've never tried to change my mannerisms or the way I talk or walk or any of that (I have more to say about this in general in a minute ...). I use the terms male and female because that's what everyone has grown up with and that's what society uses. When it comes right down to it, in my head, I am simply myself. Plenty of people around me have determined I am more "male" simply because of the way I am. So it's a bit of a validation I guess, but I didn't use other people's opinions/observations to come up with my personal identity. Most people, having not ever felt they weren't their assigned-at-birth gender, like to put things in either the male or the female box. When things (or people) don't fit into other's preconceived notions of gender it can cause them confusion. How they react to that confusion is the real kicker.
Having said that, I no longer am too concerned about causing others confusion. But, a lot of people DO care about that. Hence the need for a lot of trans people to conform ... to change their mannerisms ... to go out of their way (up to and including risky surgery) to fit other's notions so that it does not cause them or the other people discomfort, etc. There's also a way that the concept of "just be yourself" (warning ... my opinion again ...) can be perverted so that, for instance, a 6'2" male-bodied person with a beard and chest hair and a deep voice can NOT be a woman. What is this person to do then? Most likely, they feel like crap because they feel they can not be themselves because they do not look the part. It comes to a point where they feel they will do anything to look the part (surgery, etc.) and if they can't, they'd rather be dead. Very sad and tragic situation. But one of the root causes of the situation is that this person can not be a woman in society simply because of looks (not going to get heavily into dysphoria as I know that comes into play, which is why I said the aforementioned is just ONE of the root causes, but dysphoria is a personal thing, not something society sees). It goes the other way too. A female-bodied person with 38D chest, curves like a 50's pinup, 5' tall and high-pitched voice can feel just as bad because they feel they could never be male in society. And now, what I see in the trans community (and the medical community that treats them) is so much emphasis being placed on treatment and not enough emphasis being placed on truly being oneself and on making room in society for the variations. Because "she looks like a man" and "he looks like a woman" is still derogatory statements in most of our society, this puts even more pressure on a trans person to "conform" and look the way they're "supposed to look" by society's standard. If they don't after treatment and they're still holding on to that and being told by other people they don't look like the gender they feel they are, it's still going to cause them problems until they can find a way to build inner confidence and actually be themselves, regardless of what society thinks.
Personally, I also feel this is more detrimental in the long run for all of us who don't fit in society's boxes and have rejected standard "treatment" for it. It perpetuates bias and discrimination and does not lead to overall acceptance. A perfect example of this is people "accepting" trans people ... but only if they go "the whole way" (surgeries, transition, etc.) and then quietly live their lives as their "proper" gender (of course they must look like it too ... they can't be an ugly woman after all because then she'll "look like a man" again... /sarcasm). So basically, nothing in between is tolerated any more.
This is my opinion of course. I'm not really anti binary. What I would say is that I'm pro variation and I'm anti changing yourself for other people or changing yourself to fit in other people's boxes. If you've done your soul searching and you really want to walk more like a woman, then change that. People change things about themselves all the time. Don't have straight teeth? Get braces. Broke your nose? Get plastic surgery. Tired of your frumpy mom jeans and the rest of your closet? Consult with a stylist and get a new wardrobe. Don't like your job? Get a new one. We have, literally, millions of choices we can make throughout our lives. Those of us that fall outside the normal gender definitions have some additional choices. But at the end of the day, I feel the best choices are made after searching ourselves for answers and turning away from the majority or society. The exception is when you make choices because of those you deeply love or care about in life or make selfless choices to help others. That's just the way I think about it.
Quote from: bingunginter on February 22, 2014, 09:38:33 AM
What if they aspire to have specific mannerism ?
Then they should go for it.
Quote from: bingunginter on February 22, 2014, 09:38:33 AM
I believe with proper training, you can train your mannerism to be second nature.
I'm sure it is theoretically possible. But I have never seen anyone with consciously taught mannerisms that seemed natural.
I think part of what happens is a tendency of people to train themselves to exaggerated feminine mannerisms that end up coming off as some sort of parody of womanhood rather than authentic. Honestly, one can see why ciswomen would find some transwomen to be insulting in what they think a woman is. Heavens, there are some that I find offensive (or at least bizarre) too.
I'm sorry, but calling me "girl" in every other sentence or calling everyone "honey" in every sentence does not come across as natural. Basically if drag performers do it on stage, then it does not make one blend in. And there are a lot of trans* people who seem more like drag performers. The ones who do so do not seem natural.
I guess perhaps a lot of it comes down to trying too hard to do something that has to be done unconsciously, without deliberate effort.
Quote from: bingunginter on February 22, 2014, 09:38:33 AM
If they succeed, would you think their life would be more convenient in this binary society ?
Depends on what they succeeded at. Your hypothetical was about acquiring a certain mannerism. I'd imagine that life would be hard if they consistently came across as a drag queen. If they actually learned natural, typical, societally accepted female mannerisms, I'm sure it would help them.
But the only ones I have ever encountered who seemed to have any success at this were the ones who didn't try. They would just be, whatever that meant.
In saying this, I'm mindful that I am the worst person to address the issue. Because for me it all feels like coming home after a long trip. Everything feels exactly right and fits. Even the crap I get (like the guys who are shocked that I can play chess) is exactly the right crap. So there's really not much adjustment involved for me as there must be for most people. And so I am a very poor source of transition advice.
The only advice I feel comfortable giving is that anyone who wants to just blend in would be well advised to befriend and hang out with some ciswomen. Society has some weird ideas about women. And people who are raised as (ostensibly) men tend to inherit those same ideas. Ciswomen have a lot more practice at living on their side if the fence than any transwoman. So if you are a transwoman and want to learn about what women really are like and what their lives are really like, they are a very good place to go to get a little peak in the window at the other side's reality.
QuoteI'm sure it is theoretically possible. But I have never seen anyone with consciously taught mannerisms that seemed natural.
It routinely happen in sports or dance. They learn a highly complex movement that become second nature, so much so that they don't have to think about it. It just flows.
QuoteI think part of what happens is a tendency of people to train themselves to exaggerated feminine mannerisms that end up coming off as some sort of parody of womanhood rather than authentic. Honestly, one can see why ciswomen would find some transwomen to be insulting in what they think a woman is. Heavens, there are some that I find offensive too.
Well it might be that feminine mannerisms that you call exaggerate is really is what they prefer. They might think that that mannerism is beauty. I think we shouldn't judge them.
Quote from: bingunginter on February 22, 2014, 06:39:24 PM
It routinely happen in sports or dance. They learn a highly complex movement that become second nature, so much so that they don't have to think about it. It just flows.
I used to be a semi-decent tennis player. I found that there was a distinct difference between the way I would play tennis versus the way I would be at dinner, for example. The dinner behavior really was a totally different level of naturalness. But of course it is also possible that, since I was never much of an athlete or dancer, I might not have been skilled enough to entirely grasp what you are saying. :)
Quote from: bingunginter on February 22, 2014, 06:39:24 PM
Well it might be that feminine mannerisms that you call exaggerate is really is what they prefer. They might think that that mannerism is beauty. I think we shouldn't judge them.
I agree. Different strokes for different folks. But I thought we were talking about people who were trying to learn to blend in to the larger cis world. I accidentally tapped "post" on my iPad before I intended to finish that last post, and I modified it to include the rest of what I was trying to say, not expecting that anyone would respond while I was still writing. But hopefully the rest of what I said made clear this assumption.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 22, 2014, 07:39:58 AM
POLITICALLY INCORRECT CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT WARNING
The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it. It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.
I have noticed this too with some people and it is really kind of sad when you think about it. It is yet another layer that I believe keeps some trans people disconnected from others. Although, as you said, it is almost imperceptible it still can exist and thus function as yet another isolating barrier between a trans person and the "outside world". There are too many of these.
Of course, bigunginter is right, just about EVERYONE is editing and cultivating their persona based on how they would like to be seen. Being a bunch of humans, that is kind of what we do. And obviously we don't just have one persona, or "self". It goes without saying that we have, for instance, our "playing tennis self" in which we allow ourselves to do certain things that we probably would want to edit out from our "dining partner self". Our voices, movements, attitudes and personalities can be quite different between the two. And, I think, most people are ok with that. As everyone who posted in this thread said today, changing things about ourselves that we don't like is, in itself, a natural human behavior. It is a part of adapting and growing into ourselves.
Here's the thing though - although these changes can sometimes appear to be radical - as long as they serve the purpose of helping someone achieve a fuller realization of who they already are I think these are usually healthy changes. Where it gets messy is when these changes do not serve who you really are but are instead a set of arbitrary regulations and affectations that are in no way natural to who you are. Again, this doesn't just apply to trans people - this is quite common and I think most of us struggle with it at various points in our lives. It can sometimes be very hard to tell the difference between striving to make changes that
enhance who one actually is as opposed to changes that serve as an attempt to
negate who one is. We are doing this (albeit on a much smaller scale) in the decisions we make on a daily basis. Sometimes we get it wrong but (hopefully) most of the time we get it right. And, USUALLY, it doesn't matter very much either way because you are soon on to the next thing. For example, if someone walks in on me watching TV, since it is too late to hid the fact that I like to watch TV I will probably at least try to change the channel to PBS or the news or something that reflects how I want people to perceive my tastes. I will then patiently wait that person out until they leave the room and I can go back to watching "World's Dumbest Partiers Part 14".
But when you are talking about modifying the behavior to the degree that some who undertake this gender transition stuff do, then it can get really difficult. If it feels like a good fit or you find it enhancing you, then all is well. But sometimes it isn't a fit, it is just a new kind of prison. It isn't natural. It isn't Tao. It is a round peg trying to go into a square hole. Like you said about how the most important thing about "passing" is often just to "be" - when someone has an awkward affectation going on it is usually pretty easy to "read", even if it is on a subliminal level that something isn't quite right. If this affectation was serving the person employing it well I would of course say "no harm no foul" but again, I think in some cases it is holding that person back from being engaged fully in the world.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 22, 2014, 02:33:43 PM
What I would say is that I'm pro variation and I'm anti changing yourself for other people or changing yourself to fit in other people's boxes. If you've done your soul searching and you really want to walk more like a woman, then change that. People change things about themselves all the time.
I hope to find time tomorrow to write a few things about your post, as I thought it was really good. But I will say that I too have been thinking recently about how a lot of the talk about "gender identity" and the importance of being "true to yourself" is not learning to be ok with who you are - it is often about trying to get others to validate your choice of gender identity expression. And again, when this happens organically or with only the slightest of nudging against societal values and expectations I can't see any harm in this. But at some point it becomes a matter of diminishing returns when so much effort is being expended on imposing mandatory affirmation of a prefered gender identity through legislation, social shaming for misgendering someone, etc. Yes you can fight to get the F or M marker changed on your drivers license (and I am not saying that isn't important) but if you do that and your perceived gender identity is still not your prefered gender identity most of the time what good does that really do? And again, I can't help but wonder why (to borrow your example) the 6'2" bearded natal-male-sexed self-identified "woman" can't find ways to be express this "womanhood" in ways other than just through documentation. I know that it is complicated. There are pressures from within the trans community to "go all the way" and there are also pressures from society that "a man can't walk like that" but I do wonder if it is possible that we can get to the point where more trans people's priorities can shift away from settling for legal validation (but in many cases social rejection) of their preferred gender identity towards something that is more affirming on a human level. Once you stop talking about "gender identity" it becomes more invisible and thus less of a barrier preventing human interaction and relationships to develop.
Loving this discussion. Great insight ... I agree that there is a lot of pressure to conform with community (and the tg community is no different), norms and expectations. Being non binary is uncomfortable for the FTA, MTA, GQ person etc but it is often more uncomfortable for those trying to classify us using their normal taxonomy.
Trying to express, experience or be something "on a human level" which is meaningful to me as the traveller rather than as an actor forced to choose between 1 of 2 roles (M or F) with which the audience finds greater comfort is to me being authentic. Dressing, speaking or indeed any affectation which is designed to engage with the audience rather than to best express my spirit is to me inauthentic.
My issue is therefore this, why should I be expected to swap one uniform for another, one legal classification for another when neither truly capture me as I currently am, never mind how I may currently become? I am proud to be tg and I value choice and authenticity. Swapping one gender marker for another doesn't work for me. Indeed it seems to be as you suggest that legal validation over a more nuanced and complex self expression is indeed a barrier to genuine, authentic and human interaction.
Quote from: retransition on February 23, 2014, 12:11:48 AM
But when you are talking about modifying the behavior to the degree that some who undertake this gender transition stuff do, then it can get really difficult. If it feels like a good fit or you find it enhancing you, then all is well. But sometimes it isn't a fit, it is just a new kind of prison. It isn't natural. It isn't Tao. It is a round peg trying to go into a square hole. Like you said about how the most important thing about "passing" is often just to "be" - when someone has an awkward affectation going on it is usually pretty easy to "read", even if it is on a subliminal level that something isn't quite right. If this affectation was serving the person employing it well I would of course say "no harm no foul" but again, I think in some cases it is holding that person back from being engaged fully in the world.
Thank you. This is what I was trying to get at, but you said it a lot better.
Quote from: retransition on February 23, 2014, 01:17:58 AM
I hope to find time tomorrow to write a few things about your post, as I thought it was really good. But I will say that I too have been thinking recently about how a lot of the talk about "gender identity" and the importance of being "true to yourself" is not learning to be ok with who you are - it is often about trying to get others to validate your choice of gender identity expression. And again, when this happens organically or with only the slightest of nudging against societal values and expectations I can't see any harm in this. But at some point it becomes a matter of diminishing returns when so much effort is being expended on imposing mandatory affirmation of a prefered gender identity through legislation, social shaming for misgendering someone, etc. Yes you can fight to get the F or M marker changed on your drivers license (and I am not saying that isn't important) but if you do that and your perceived gender identity is still not your prefered gender identity most of the time what good does that really do? And again, I can't help but wonder why (to borrow your example) the 6'2" bearded natal-male-sexed self-identified "woman" can't find ways to be express this "womanhood" in ways other than just through documentation. I know that it is complicated. There are pressures from within the trans community to "go all the way" and there are also pressures from society that "a man can't walk like that" but I do wonder if it is possible that we can get to the point where more trans people's priorities can shift away from settling for legal validation (but in many cases social rejection) of their preferred gender identity towards something that is more affirming on a human level. Once you stop talking about "gender identity" it becomes more invisible and thus less of a barrier preventing human interaction and relationships to develop.
As far as I can tell through my own observations on the boards here, you are right in that the phrase "being true to yourself" does not = being okay with who you are and instead is more about getting everyone else to validate your identity. I have seen time and time again in trans community and forums people making statements to the effect of "you have to be true to yourself ... You have to transition". And it's usually followed up by something like forget your family, etc, you have to do what's best for you alone and transition.
Why I was one of the people who made such a ruckus to create this new non-transitioning board was because I knew there had to be other people out there who were questioning if medical and social transition was the ONLY way and what if you didn't want that even though you might have a different personal gender ID than your physical body?
I agree that this particular thread is a great discussion that is exploring something much deeper than physical looks and what society deems is male or female.
And I especially am interested in your viewpoint, retransition, since you've already been down that path, had your own revelations and have come back. While I realize everyone is on their own personal journey, I think it's important to actually see/read about others experiences.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 22, 2014, 07:39:58 AM
POLITICALLY INCORRECT CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT WARNING
In this post, you have pretty much nailed something about the transgender community that I have struggled with since the 1990s without resolving. I often see trans* people trying to learn to act a certain way, alter their mannerisms, and so on. I see this overwhelmingly with transwomen and a lot less with transmen. The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it. It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.
It has always seemed to me that part of the secret to passing, or to just being in the world, is to just be. This, on the other hand, seems like someone is pretending. I cannot imagine that it would be comfortable. And I find myself wondering what is the point of going through something as profound and life altering as transition if the person cannot just be real at the end of it.
I have had trans* people say to me that I will never understand because of how naturally everything about being a woman comes to me. Well, okay . . . but trying to be a guy certainly did not come naturally to me. But I still never took lessons on manner and such. I just tried to just be and just be real. Even if it did lead to awkward moments (as in, "Okay, I want to know something. How come you can do girltalk?").
So why can't we all just be real no matter where on the spectrum we fall? If you're going to do all I'd this, then doesn't it sort of defeat the point to do something that makes you seem obviously fake?
Mmh, I really don't think it is always this easy. :) I can't exactly say I identify with what you posted, I never teally understood actually intentionally trying to learn a specific set of new mannerisms or whatever, just that I wanted to give a different perspective? May be completely out of the norm but.
For me, a lot of transition was trying to find out who I am in the first place. It sort of naturally happened, which sounds weird, but I was never a person who would say I had a gender identity. I just sort of accepted a view that some people had of me and continued down that path. But I really didn't know before, at all. Actually I still don't, but I think I got closer somehow... and only a little of that is about gender. What I managed to learn about myself was actually not from where I fit in or how well I was accepted, but from what I found myself instinctively pushing back against. What I found myself worried about and uncomfortable with. Some of those things cis people struggle with too... will I stand out too much if I act intelligent? Will people hate me if I'm not always bubbly? It's embarrassing that I have X problem. It's invalidating if I don't know how to do X. I want people to like me so I will start doing X. I don't want people to think I'm like X so I will avoid being like that. I had these problems pre-transition, I have them after, and I know I would have them if I detransitioned again.
The result is that outwardly, the person I was before is different in a lot of ways than the person I am now. And I still don't know if that's me. It's not obvious and it never has been. I struggle back and forth with which gender I actually want to be almost daily. People in my life say female and even will argue that point with me when I want to be a boy, but would they say male if that's how they met me? I don't actually know. All my life experience as a boy is from childhood. And my presentation which is as a pretty conventional girl in spite of that isn't fake either, but it's also not real? Does that make any sense? Some of it is me and some of it is me accepting society and just trying to get by in a world that doesn't let everyone be exactly themselves. I don't know if everyone appreciates that feeling. I will have to give up or keep to myself some parts of me no matter what I do in life.
So, hrmm, again, this may not at all be most people's experience, but I guess I'm just trying to say that people do what they do for a lot of reasons and even just knowing who you are and what is most natural to you can be frustrating and confusing. And even if you do, it could be a fact of life that you have to diminish or embellish parts of yourself no matter who or what you are presenting as. I don't know. Just my 2c.
Edit: oh, I also thought of something I wanted to add that I think is important re: the mtf/ftm difference in being yourself. You do have to consider that the main segment of the trans community that experiences regular discrimination for being trans is MTFs. It's hard for anyone to be trans, but FTMs for the most part do get to keep the dignity of being perceived as a cis person (even if it's not their preferred gender) in casual encounters thru their entire transition, unless they choose otherwise, right up until they pass as male, though a lot of FTMs don't emphasize passing or presentation and their transition is more of a personal journey. Going in they also tend to have better support systems than MTFs from what I have seen, and trans spaces that are frequented by FTMs more than MTFs seem more identity-diverse and aware (like tumblr) But yeah, for those of the mtf community who end up having to live as visibly trans to everyone they meet, or everyone who even sees them walking down the street, that must be an incredibly invalidating battle on a daily basis. It's probably only natural they would do whatever they could to try and pass better or be treated more like a human being, maybe even knowing that part of it is an act or unfamiliar. Sorry if I am wrong on any of those points and please correct me if I am, I just thought it was important to mention that :s
i'm not sure how much easier it is to be ftm. sure, an mtf could easily be thought to be totally crazy by society. but ftm is just a woman with an inferiority complex and penis envy, and often also a threat to any male ego. and the risk of rape exists for them too, it's just not always followed by a thorough beating. both have their own problems, and i don't think either has more or less problems than the other.
i'm ending up liking this discussion. so many interesting views on gender.
to me, gender doesn't matter in a way that makes me feel like i need a paper that say i am Y rather than X. it wouldn't even matter if i got that piece of legal recognition, because i've already decided to stay in a society where i'll probably forever be "female" no matter what i do. many have known me since grade school after all...
so, i've kind of given up on social transition. it's not worth the effort to be recognized as something that is still not really me, though less of the wrongest choice. but i'll still pursue medical transition, because it's somewhat important to me that i can feel comfortable in my own skin, and right now, i don't.
i did think for quite a while about changing mannerisms and stuff. try to sit more manly, talk more manly etc. but in the end... i found out that online, i'd be taken for a guy if i just type the way that feels natural to me. so apparently, the real me isn't all that girly, so why should i try to change myself... the only changes i will make, is to get rid of studied behavior that is actually not natural to me. like the "good girl" act that's mostly a bunch of rather damaging behavior, it never got me anything of what i wanted, i only avoided being yelled at even more by my parents.
i'm pretty sure that as i get rid of all the stuff that is not me, i'll also find out more about myself, and will become able to choose which of my actual natural traits to make use of in different situations. learning to be myself rather than this doll that my parents tried to create...
Quote from: sad panda on February 24, 2014, 11:39:46 PM
It's hard for anyone to be trans, but FTMs for the most part do get to keep the dignity of being perceived as a cis person (even if it's not their preferred gender) in casual encounters thru their entire transition, unless they choose otherwise, right up until they pass as male, though a lot of FTMs don't emphasize passing or presentation and their transition is more of a personal journey. Going in they also tend to have better support systems than MTFs from what I have seen, and trans spaces that are frequented by FTMs more than MTFs seem more identity-diverse and aware (like tumblr)
I don't have time to write too much tonight but I share Taka's skepticism that being FTM is necessarily easier than being MTF. Maybe some FTMs have an easier time than some MTFs but then again some MTFs have it easier than some FTMs. Each experience is unique. And even though as FTMs and MTFs (or "formers") we have a lot in common - there are some fundamental differences between the FTM experience vs the MTF experience that you really can't make a direct comparison between in terms of "easiness". They are different and equally hard. It really is apples and oranges.
Quote from: Taka on February 26, 2014, 06:28:30 AM
i'm pretty sure that as i get rid of all the stuff that is not me, i'll also find out more about myself
Nice post. Really quick I will say that, for me, letting go of a lot of stuff that wasn't me, and also clearing out a lot of the "mental space" that transition and gender were occupying in my head, only now have I come to some really important realizations about myself that I could never see before because they were buried under all the gender stuff.
One other thing I meant to say - just because you might see FTM resources and communities online and you might notice some acceptance of FTMs in trans spaces that does not mean that all FTMs have access or are able to relate to these. For the FTM who is not comfortable in trans spaces or on message boards or tumblrs, this so called "advantage" is non-existent.
Sorry guys, hope it didn't sound like I said being FTM is easier!!! As a whole I think both are equal. I just meant that visible MTFs are uniquely put in this chaotic social presentation in which they are constantly passively being judged and mocked by almost everyone who can see them. That level of visibility is mostly unique to MTFs so I was saying that's why the desperation to change mannerisms could also be unique to MTFs. The urgency must be incredible when every person walking by in public is looking and gawking.
I mean, FTM just starting transition puts on a button-up, men's jeans and oxfords and goes to dinner. everyone's seen it even if it's hard knowing he doesn't pass. MTF puts on a wig, pumps and a dress? Stares, whispers, sneers, smirks, maybe comments, maybe arguments, and so on... At least they would naturally wanna get the mannerisms right if they were worried. You know?? An unpassable MTF ends up as everyone's business when they shouldn't have to be, and when you're put in the spotlight... you don't wanna forget the lines... how could anyone be natural like that?
Quote from: retransition on February 27, 2014, 11:53:09 PM
Nice post. Really quick I will say that, for me, letting go of a lot of stuff that wasn't me, and also clearing out a lot of the "mental space" that transition and gender were occupying in my head, only now have I come to some really important realizations about myself that I could never see before because they were buried under all the gender stuff.
mm, i had that same type of experience. went from thinking that everything will be good if i can just transition, to seeing that nearly everything will be even better if i just stop obsessing over transition and how difficult that is for me to get access to. put the whole transition project aside as something i will do as soon as it becomes possible, but not giving it more importance than losing a few pounds. both will make me feel better about something, but they're not at all necessary in order to have a fairly good life.
i'm almost starting to agree with those who think it is better to work through other mental problems before starting transition. or at least before doing any surgery. just to know that the person is actually thinking clearly about these things and not wishing for the wrong solutions.
now that i'm at peace with myself, i notice better which feelings are constant, and which are more fleeting. the constant ones are probably the ones that are most certain to be truth, the rest need to be thought about more when it's time for it. or they may even disappear when i make small changes to myself that will deal with the constants. but since i can't figure that out with my current situation, i'll just make sure to do what i can do rather than obsessing over what i can not. the world is already a brighter place.
Quote from: sad panda on February 28, 2014, 02:41:15 AM
Sorry guys, hope it didn't sound like I said being FTM is easier!!! As a whole I think both are equal.
I'm willing to come out and say it: being ftm is easier than being mtf.
This is not to say that being ftm is easy. It isn't. There are undoubtedly individual cases of ftm individuals who have experienced more adverse consequences for being trans* than individual mtf persons. But every single study I know of shows that mtf individuals are suffering higher rates of discrimination, violence, and suicide than ftm individuals.
Mtf spectrum individuals experience more violence than ftm individuals. A study from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs estimated that about half of all anti-LGBT hate murders in 2012 were committed against transwomen even though transwomen are far less than half the LGBT community. No transmen were hate murder victims. The National Transgender Discrimination Survey shows that mtf spectrum individuals are more likely to experience violence in their families (22% vs. 15%), sexual assault during thei K-12 years (15% vs 10%), physically assaulted in homeless shelters (29% vs. 15%), sexually assaulted in homeless shelters (26% vs. 15%), or turned away from a homeless shelter altogether (34% vs 20%). A study on transgender health in Philadelphia (available here: http://www.nationallgbtcancernetwork.com/media/pdf/1_in_4_trans_turned_away.pdf) had similar findings. Mtf spectrum individuals were more likely to experience violence in the form of forcible sex (68.8% vs 30.0%), violence in their homes (67.3% vs. 38.7% percent) and physical abuse (65.3% vs. 29.0%). The sexual assault rate according to a San Francisco study also showed that mtf spectrum individuals were sexually assaulted more often than ftm individuals (68% vs. 55%), although the ftm individuals, at 55%, were sexually assaulted more frequently than in the Philadelphia study.
In employment, the statistics show ftm individuals suffering a lot less than their mtf counterparts. An interesting study in 2008 followed ftm and mtf individuals through transition. Mtf spectrum trans* people lost an average of 32% of their income after transition. Ftm persons saw their income go up slightly (1.5%). There used to be a formal article about this study available online, but I cannot find it anymore. Here is a Time Magazine article about it: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1847194,00.html. A study by the San Francisco Department of Health (available here: http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf) shows greater discrimination against mtf individuals than ftm individuals across the board. Interestingly, the one area where ftm individuals reported monthly greater rates of workplace discrimination was the workplace, but mtf individuals still had lower monthly incomes (an average of $744 vs. $1,100).
I could on, but this is an Internet message board, not an academic study. :) I hope the point is clear. People are certainly welcome to disagree, but I'd be very interested in knowing whether they have evidence beyond their personal opinions to back up their disagreement.
The statistics tell a compelling story. No one--neither ftm spectrum nor mtf spectrum--is having it easy. But mtf spectrum persons are facing much more widespread discrimination on average. Although it is doubtless possible to find some individual ftm persons who have had it much worse than some other mtf persons, that does not change the fact that, based on all the available stats, mtf individuals are being targeted and suffering more than ftm individuals.
Frankly, I'm surprised that this statement is all that controversial. I have met an ftm individual who thought that ftm individuals had a worse time of it. But only one.
@taka I really like your approach. I wish I did it that way too. :)
@thephoenix wow... well I guess the numbers do speak for themselves. A lot of times when I'm out I see presumably cis women who could just be an early in transition ftm and realized that they wouldn't stand out and literally no one would think anything of it until they started telling people they are a guy. It was interesting to think about it that way. It makes me think about my first few weeks in my transition, how terrified I was to be living full time with no hormones, and it being the summer I was out in short shorts and girly sandals like every day. Fortunately in 2 years of living full time I only had 1 negative reaction, when a week or 2 in some guy kept smirking at me and he was paying way too much attention in not the usual way. It was just a few minute encounter and I never even knew if he could tell I was trans but that experience was awful to me, I cannot even begin to imagine the strength it takes to face that or worse every day and to keep going out anyway. Transition was hellish until I started to realize that nobody could tell, and it's so weird to think how differently they would act if they could. It's so weird to wonder how few allies I would have anywhere when as a conventional, passable girl I'm everybody's sweetheart. I really resent that. I really wish it could change but I don't know how. I mean even I as a trans person struggle to accept being trans. Just the idea of it. And then to the average person, it's still just this band of gypsies....
Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 28, 2014, 08:17:35 AM
I'm willing to come out and say it: being ftm is easier than being mtf.
...
I could on, but this is an Internet message board, not an academic study. :) I hope the point is clear. People are certainly welcome to disagree, but I'd be very interested in knowing whether they have evidence beyond their personal opinions to back up their disagreement.
The statistics are horrible and sad and thanks for reminding us of them (I still need to drop by your thread about the T.D.O.R. as I have a few comments.)
I still don't think it is helpful in any way to say one is "easier" than the other.
As I read these numbers, I (sadly) wasn't surprised that the overall rate of violence is higher for MTFs. The reality is that a much higher percentage of members of the MTF population engage in sex work and other dangerous activities than does the FTM group. The Philadelphia study even noted this in its findings:
"The levels of sexual abuse were also alarming. The higher levels of sexual abuse found among MTFs may be due to the fact that MTF sex workers were among the survey one target population. MTF sex workers are in danger of being victims of violent sexual acts, particularly if they are pre operative. There is anecdotal information of pre-op MTFs who have been beaten and even killed by "Johns" who found out they were biological males (Wilchins et al.). "
I also noticed the nearly 3/4 of FTMs reported not having access to at least one medical service due to price (I am assuming phalloplasty) as opposed to 2/5 of MTFs. So what does that mean in terms of "easiness"? There are other numbers we can parse and argue over, but I have to wonder what the point of doing so would be since I believe there is no such thing as a definitive "benchmark" of what constitutes an "easier" lived experience. I have to be honest, I don't really see what is to be gained by even attempting to have such a discussion. I think you said it best with your point that "no one--neither ftm spectrum nor mtf spectrum--is having it easy. "