Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I had a big personal epiphany and I feel a need to share it, even though I am supposed to be up and in 5 hours.

Epiphany 6:1 - I am transgendered
Epiphany 6:2 - I am androgyne
Epiphany 6:3 - I think I know why
Epiphany 6:4 - I think I know what I mean by androgyne

Its a grand theory, a bit overarching, and ask Hegel, overaching theories tend to be a bit shoddy, but here goes.

I was answering Susan's first 'Gender Theory' topic - based on what I thought a rather weak quote by Simone de Beauvoir. However I found myself talking about innate grammar, the theory that there is a system that is in a person when they are born that allows them to learn language at an exponential rate because the very basics of grammar are already in there.

This could also be nicely applied to gender, that there is a innate 'grammar' of maleness in the male mind and one for femaleness in the female one. That the reason gender constructs seem social is because they are learnt, but their ubiquitous and all pervading nature comes from the basics of a particular gender is hardwired in people's brains. This would make a transsexual a female grammar in the mind of a male body or vice versa.

What about an androgyne?

Perhaps an androgyne is someone with no deep gender 'grammar'. Would explain a lot to me. This means that when a TS person feels conflict with internal grammar and external lesson, an androgyne has to learn all these lessons without the pre-cut channels to aid this learning. An androgyne feels a separate but parallel conflict between inner self and world, because the world is expecting the androgyne to understand things that they are less equipped to. Where a TS can transition and get mind and world in sync, an androgyne can not as they will always be in conflict with society, society being hardwired to gender and an androgyne just emulating it.

That would explain my angers and frustrations.

Also, we've had posts recently about androgynes feeling ignored by the general world but especially prized by acquaintances, friends and strangers that say hello. At being able to see and solve disputes easily, at people not noticing or taking an androgynes distress all that seriously And that there are no separate terms for younger and older androgynes. I think my theory can explain this (I would, or it would not be a grand theory).

Turning innate grammar into language is an important process of growing, if someone never managed to do it we would say they had learning difficulties and in some ways regard them a child. The same could be for androgynes. That because they do not have what it takes to learn gender except by rote means that they can never properly grow up. That androgyne is a name for someone in a permanent state of childhood where gender is concerned. This could also be why androgynes are prized as mediators, and listeners and such - that there is an innocence and fragility that is appreciated by other people. A man is always in competition against other men, a woman against other women, but an androgyne is not in competition. Not even in competition with other androgynes (at least I don't think so, I'd like to see it). This means an androgyne is always innocent and neutral territory. Would also explain why androgynes feel ignored or not taken seriously, because what adult takes a child all that seriously?

I think it works anyway.  It makes me happy to have explained myself to myself in language I understand.

As usual, answers on a postcard to this address.

-X-

Hi Pica Pica,

   You just may be the greatest genius the world has ever seen.
   Your theory bags (captures into) my feelings that all went wrong for me soon after 8 years of age. I also have this feeling that my life works when I live like an 8 year old. Go to bed on time, eat right, find joys, and live cleanly. I'm not being silly. It also covers my desired body image of being a person unbattered by puberty.

   You also described explanations for some of our other topics, such as feeling invisible and being somehow accepted by others as friends because we're not seen as a threat.
   I have been ignored by people when I get serious about myself or make suggestions at work.

   The most messed up part is that my girlfriend fits this quote -

QuoteTurning innate grammar into language is an important process of growing, if someone never managed to do it we would say they had learning difficulties and in some ways regard them a child.

She is an adult. She's had children. She was married. But her use of language is very childlike. She even comes across as a child to me at times, though I know she is emotionally savvy. As an example of some of her language use; she says 'chimley' instead of chimney; 'crimikal' instead of criminal and many other things. She can't say "transgender"; she says "transester".  I never laugh at her because I understand it is her way.
   So, not only have you captured a description of me, but incidentally, you've described my GF which is something I've been working on for years.
   It kind of explains why we've clicked for years. Each of us is deficient in a different way and, together, we are almost one whole person.

   You also bagged the description of not feeling like I've matured like a regular human. I've been conscious of this for years. When I was in my mid twenties and in my first real relationship, one of my friends told me I was just hitting puberty. I've been aware ever since that, in some ways, my mental (social?) development has been much different than others.

   I don't know why but I'm excited by your post.  Is it okay if I print it out and show it to my gender counselor on Thursday?

Pica,

This is great! I'm too tired to respond in detail now, just got home from a long day, will think about this and answer tomorrow. Thanks!

zythyra

of course, it's anyone's to play with. thanks for responses. time to go to work  :(

QuoteThis could also be nicely applied to gender, that there is a innate 'grammar' of maleness in the male mind and one for femaleness in the female one. That the reason gender constructs seem social is because they are learnt, but their ubiquitous and all pervading nature comes from the basics of a particular gender is hardwired in people's brains. This would make a transsexual a female grammar in the mind of a male body or vice versa.

What about an androgyne?

Perhaps an androgyne is someone with no deep gender 'grammar'. Would explain a lot to me. This means that when a TS person feels conflict with internal grammar and external lesson, an androgyne has to learn all these lessons without the pre-cut channels to aid this learning. An androgyne feels a separate but parallel conflict between inner self and world, because the world is expecting the androgyne to understand things that they are less equipped to. Where a TS can transition and get mind and world in sync, an androgyne can not as they will always be in conflict with society, society being hardwired to gender and an androgyne just emulating it.

It would be a great topic to explore more. And even to try testing if there are anyone with that ability (give credit and ask permission from Pica Pica first however). I see a thesis, disertation, book, or great journal article possible from any experiment/testing. Maybe you should persue it if you have the resources.

KK/Ken/Kendra

I first read this a bit before 2AM, and figured I would have to return to in the morning. Thus, I re-read it in the morning and figured I needed at least two cups of coffee before reflecting on it. Now, I had two cups of coffee, but realised that the only well-established reply I can word is: touché, and kuddos, and that I can only agree with KK that it would be interesting to see this theory be put into practice. Perhaps we should set up our own little research group or try to pinpoint occassions in our own lives that may support this theory?

You have worded your thoughts nicely Pica Pica, and I believe all of us can understand them. :)

I imagine babies would have to be used to experiment with some sort of reaction type test, or monitored throughout childhood. That is since the theory compares newlyborn with the innate "grammar" ability of gender. And probably test after they age and grow up to compare differences. Certainly finding androgynes would be more difficult, considering I dont know of any way to pinpoint a persons gender. But as a person ages, gender identity reveals itself.

I could help more, were it not for that dang lack of memory from the early years. The fog of comprehension and memory.

If you can think of any other way, I am game. My memory only goes back to age 4.

Unless your talking about like scientologist-dianetics, hypnotists, or those psychics which I dont think would lead to anything credible.

KK

the timing's an hour. About right for an epiphany a cup of tea and a post writing. epiphanies (to me anyway) are sudden paradigm shifts within caused by realisations, a new connection of facts or ideas that were always laying around and are now knotted together.

i like the sea imagery, too calm for me, but I do love a good boat image...

I came up with some objections to the theory but another time with them, i now have 4 hours to i have to wake up and go to work...never be a night owl with a job as a breakfast and lunch waiter.

Could there be something akin to gender autism?






[edited - removed the useless jokes in order to say on topic]

maybe...

why take useless jokes off, i like them  :)

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 12, 2007, 10:41:02 AM
maybe...

why take useless jokes off, i like them  :)

This topic is very meaningful to me, so

whats life without the silly jokes... for example

What would you call this? (Shows the join between hand and arm and roars)
A terror-wrist.

Incidental two friends of mine started a security scare in a supermarket for the crime of being asian and going to the toilet.


1 issue with theory...

Why, if the answer is a lack of gender deep grammar did I think I was transsexual and later discover myself as androgyne?

I think that this is because my natural talents and lack of talents skewed me towards the female end of the social spectrum. Something that had I the gender grammar then I may have fought against it more. I think that not being internally motivated towards either gender I was socially motivated towards the female and so felt a lot of similarities with the TS I read about. (and ignored the stuff that didn't).

Issue number 2

In this theory, how are bigendered individual's explained?

I got two answers, one that with no gender grammar a person can collect two gender identities and have no strong motivation to pick a favourite...and the other is that the person has both a male and female deep grammar, and so can't help collecting two identities.

So thats was my thoughts all recent like.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 13, 2007, 02:48:48 PM
1 issue with theory...

Why, if the answer is a lack of gender deep grammar did I think I was transsexual and later discover myself as androgyne?

I think that this is because my natural talents and lack of talents skewed me towards the female end of the social spectrum. Something that had I the gender grammar then I may have fought against it more. I think that not being internally motivated towards either gender I was socially motivated towards the female and so felt a lot of similarities with the TS I read about. (and ignored the stuff that didn't).

   My thinking is that after truly having no conscious understanding of myself, that once I determined I was not male, I assumed I had to be female. I spent the next year thinking I was a woman.
   I don't know about you, but I had no knowledge that there is a place between or outside of the binary genders of Female & Male. So, I had nowhere to go once I denounced my manhood except to womanhood.
   At this time, with a more educated viewpoint, I'm ready to go anywhere. I still can't exactly nail myself ( ::) Heh heh), but I'm happy knowing that my being afloat is NOT disastrous to my Being. I am somebody who is different from the mainstream, but there are others like myself and we're all okay. Maybe we don't have the exact reason for our mindset, but we're either going to learn it or else give up enough effort to allow someone else do the learning.

Quote from: Rebis on July 13, 2007, 03:10:58 PM


   My thinking is that after truly having no conscious understanding of myself, that once I determined I was not male, I assumed I had to be female. I spent the next year thinking I was a woman.
   I don't know about you, but I had no knowledge that there is a place between or outside of the binary genders of Female & Male. So, I had nowhere to go once I denounced my manhood except to womanhood.
 

Yeah, I think this first idea was a social choice of identity because we didn't know it was possible to sit on the fence socially. I think not having the grammar has meant that biologically, we have always sat on the fence.

Posted on: July 13, 2007, 03:22:22 PM

---

Update, when universal grammar goes wrong

The theory of deep or universal grammar is still only a theory, but it is beginning to be understood that if such a thing were true then Broca's area (a part of the brain) would be the main seat for it. This is the wikipedia entry for damage of that area.

People suffering from damage to this area may show a condition called Broca's aphasia (sometimes known as expressive aphasia, motor aphasia, or nonfluent aphasia), which makes them unable to create grammatically-complex sentences: their speech is often described as telegraphic and contains little but content words. Patients usually are aware that they cannot speak properly. Comprehension in Broca's aphasia is relatively normal, although many studies have demonstrated that Broca's aphasics have trouble understanding certain kinds of syntactically complex sentences.[8]

This type of aphasia can be contrasted with Wernicke's aphasia, named for Karl Wernicke, which is characterized by damage to more posterior regions of the left hemisphere (in the superior temporal lobe). Wernicke's aphasia manifests as a more pronounced impairment in comprehension. Thus, while speech production remains normal grammatically, it is nonetheless often roundabout, vague or meaningless. It is therefore also known as receptive aphasia.

For example, in the following passage, a Broca's aphasic patient is trying to explain how he came to the hospital for dental surgery.

    "Yes... ah... Monday... er... Dad and Peter H... (his own name), and Dad.... er... hospital... and ah... Wednesday... Wednesday, nine o'clock... and oh... Thursday... ten o'clock, ah doctors... two... an' doctors... and er... teeth... yah."[9]

PET and functional MRI have found decreases in activity in the Broca's area in stuttering. There is greater activation of the right hemisphere homologue of the Broca's area (area of Ross) which is believed to be a compensatory response to the hypoactivity in the Broca's area proper. Volumetric MRI has shown that the pars triangularis is smaller in people who stutter.


Particularly interesting is the sentence that the aphasic patient speaks. Our own gender expression may very well come across a little like that. Bitty, uncontrolled but with some sort of personal (not gendered) message behind it.

QuoteWhy, if the answer is a lack of gender deep grammar did I think I was transsexual and later discover myself as androgyne?

When I knew that I wasn't male, either straight or gay, and remembered childhood history of cross dressing and as an adult more comfort with women friends and community, then it made sense, within the binary, if I was not male, then I must be female. Certainly a lack of vocabulary or awareness of androgyne as a type as opposed to an image, led me to describe what I was feeling as transgender.

zythyra

You started RLE, or some other presentation didn't you? How did that feel?

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 10, 2007, 06:15:22 PM
Its a grand theory, a bit overarching, and ask Hegel, overaching theories tend to be a bit shoddy, but here goes.

Aim high -- that way you won't shoot any of your toes off.  ;)

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 10, 2007, 06:15:22 PM
However I found myself talking about innate grammar, the theory that there is a system that is in a person when they are born that allows them to learn language at an exponential rate because the very basics of grammar are already in there.

You should keep in mind that although the idea of universal grammar, or at least linguistic universals, was very much in the vogue a couple of decades ago, nowadays there are quite a few linguistics who agree that such universals are few and far between. The ability to learn a language is an innate human trait, and closely related to (or even the same as) human thought in general. The exact grammar, however, is all learned, and the 'internal grammars' of any two people do not match exactly. Language, just like human cognition, is about finding regularities in variation and making generalisations of (sometimes very) little data.

This does not disqualify your theory, of course. There is an innate tendency towards gender, and some (although not very conclusive) indications that this is related to physical properties of the brain. Just like with language, though, this tendency enables one to learn gender-specific things, but again there is variation, so that the gender expression and identity of two people isn't exactly the same.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 10, 2007, 06:15:22 PM
What about an androgyne?

Off-hand (that is, only having thought about this thread for a day or so  ;) ), I can think of at least three different ways to get there.

First, there is the 'gender aphasia' route: the innate ability to find gender is not working properly. Depending on how it goes, this could lead to either an ambigender or neutrois identity.

Second, there is the 'bilingual' route: just like it's possible to learn several languages as a child, it might be possible to acquire two different genders, resulting in a bigender identity.

Third, there is the 'pidgin' route: languages can mix, so why couldn't genders? This way, it is possible to start with the innate aptitude for one gender but incorporate bits and pieces of the other as well. It's much like the bigender case, but with the two genders mixing instead of remaining separate. This, too, could lead to an ambigender identity, but also to a wide range of identities, from almost normal cisgendered to borderline transsexual.

  Nfr

i like the pidgin route, an androgyne patois is a nice idea. would also mean everyone has a personal gender idiolect, which I think is a farely noticeable thing.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on July 14, 2007, 07:49:09 AM
Off-hand (that is, only having thought about this thread for a day or so  ;) ), I can think of at least three different ways to get there.

First, there is the 'gender aphasia' route: the innate ability to find gender is not working properly. Depending on how it goes, this could lead to either an ambigender or neutrois identity.

Second, there is the 'bilingual' route: just like it's possible to learn several languages as a child, it might be possible to acquire two different genders, resulting in a bigender identity.

Third, there is the 'pidgin' route: languages can mix, so why couldn't genders? This way, it is possible to start with the innate aptitude for one gender but incorporate bits and pieces of the other as well. It's much like the bigender case, but with the two genders mixing instead of remaining separate. This, too, could lead to an ambigender identity, but also to a wide range of identities, from almost normal cisgendered to borderline transsexual.

  Nfr

Wow.  Keep up the good work.  I'll be in the back sleeping behind the boxes if you need me.


Your cheerleader,

Rebis

QuoteYou started RLE, or some other presentation didn't you? How did that feel?

Pica,

I realized I was not male in 1993, and so transitioned to female. RLE lasted for more than a year, during which time I legally changed my name, and lived as a woman 24/7. I felt truly comfortable as a woman, more so than I'd ever felt as a man.

At that time, I was living in a small town in Virginia, not exactly the best place in the world to come out as ts, lol. I'm self employed as a musician, during that year I lost lots of work and income. I was still happy though. I considered starting HRT, my therapist was willing to give me the letter, however I couldn't find an endocrinologist to take me as a client without health insurance. At some point after that I decided not to go any further, feeling that regardless of external presentation, it was recognition and acceptance of who I am inside that was important, and so I "re-transitioned". As "male", my employment opportunities reappeared, and life has gone on.

I do sometimes wonder whether I'd be happier living as a woman, but really I'm neither. Ideally I wish to find more ways to just be that. In a binary and discriminatory world though, it's easier said than done.

zythyra

The world does need to be freer.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 10, 2007, 06:15:22 PM
Turning innate grammar into language is an important process of growing, if someone never managed to do it we would say they had learning difficulties and in some ways regard them a child. The same could be for androgynes. That because they do not have what it takes to learn gender except by rote means that they can never properly grow up. That androgyne is a name for someone in a permanent state of childhood where gender is concerned. This could also be why androgynes are prized as mediators, and listeners and such - that there is an innocence and fragility that is appreciated by other people. A man is always in competition against other men, a woman against other women, but an androgyne is not in competition. Not even in competition with other androgynes (at least I don't think so, I'd like to see it). This means an androgyne is always innocent and neutral territory. Would also explain why androgynes feel ignored or not taken seriously, because what adult takes a child all that seriously?

I very much like this. I think it's probably true. Likewise the stuff about gender-grammar aphasias and personal gender idolects. Which lead to some funny analogies -- if men 'speak' their gender in a Scot's dialect and women in a Canadian one I've got that bizzare Caledonian/Canadian brogue of James Doohan as Scotty on the old Star Trek... oh dear.

I don't think androgynes are in competition. What would we be in competition for? I guess I've encountered some pseudo-androgynes who are in competition with practically everybody, making claims that androgyny is better than any other form of gender expression and that they personally are more androgynous than anybody else, but I actually think that such people are using the term 'androgyny' to mean a feminine gender expression that violates the 'rules' of femininity and thus makes its practitioners 'more free' than other women while remaining 'better' than men. It strikes me as a fashion-phase rather than an identity. But who knows. Sometimes it is best to not analyze others, and I often wish I could get out of the habit.

It's interesting about androgynes being prized as mediators and confidants. (At least, once the potential confider has gotten over being weirded out.) This is certainly true for me. My friends value my lack of gender, it creates a safe-seeming space for them and they find it has a charm and dignity all its own. And yet it doesn't fit in with larger groups of people. I don't work well when folks start dividing themselves up into gendered groups. Yet people do often ask me for advice about their gender relationships, and I am, appearantly, useful in this capacity. In spite of the fact that I am unable to answer questions about how women think or feel. (Except physically. My male friends find my explainations about how it feels to menstruate quite useful in their relationships with their wives. But if they ask me to comment about women's additudes I can rarely say anything besides, "Don't ask me. In the battles between the sexes I remain forever the I in everybody's team.")

Also true and interesting about not being taken seriously. I don't think I come across as child-like, but maybe I do. Fairly regularly, comments about me reflect the idea that my gender-expression is not dignified at all, and that I am ridiculous. I've been hurt by this, but find that having read this thread I'm feeling better about it. I also find myself thinking of a friend of mine who is nineteen and comes across as much younger, still seeming like a child to many. Recently I was talking about my gender issues with her and she said some things that make me think that she is an androgyne and doesn't know it, and isn't likely to care if she did. She's a great person, an intellectual giant yet angelic in her innocence, truely amazing to know. Her appearance and mannerisms are usually very feminine (not womanly but girlish), yet after that conversation I find myself seeing these aspects of her as merely coincidental. I've known since she was a small child and used to think her lack of interest in sex and related topics was a child's fear of it, but it's definately grown into an adult disinterest. I think she is far more adult than people around her recognize and am interested to see how she will cope with that as time passes and she's further and further away from childhood. I wonder if I can help. I am a much colder and angrier person than she and am not sure that my own experiences will compare well enough to allow me to offer any decent advice.

I sometime get sick of people not taking me seriously. When I used to take myself seriously this was a real problem. But now I', starting to realise that I don't even take me seriously. I'm just one more person, why should I be taken seriously?

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 17, 2007, 03:05:15 PM
I sometime get sick of people not taking me seriously. When I used to take myself seriously this was a real problem. But now I', starting to realise that I don't even take me seriously. I'm just one more person, why should I be taken seriously?

It is said that wisdom comes from one who considers themselves a fool.

OK, so I just made it up, but it sounds true and I am sure I heard something like that a long time ago.  Another old saying I just made up (also stolen, I'm sure)...

Life is too important to take seriously.

Speaking strictly for myself, people who take themselves too seriously are a pain in the...rear.  The moment one loses the ability to laugh at themselves, and actually begins to believe their own B.S., is the time for them to move on and leave me alone.  I figure since everyone else is laughing at me, I may as well laugh at myself.  It is a sad person who can't find some humor in the stupid things they do.  (Ooo, another "old saying")  :D

.....Laurry

Eh, there is a difference between wanting to be taken seriously in the sense that one is arrogant and wishes everybody to value ones opinion above their own, and wanting to be taken seriously in the sense that one wishes people would stop disregarding ones opinions (and indeed feelings) as utterly insignificant.

Quote from: Doc on July 17, 2007, 05:09:01 PM
Eh, there is a difference between wanting to be taken seriously in the sense that one is arrogant and wishes everybody to value ones opinion above their own, and wanting to be taken seriously in the sense that one wishes people would stop disregarding ones opinions (and indeed feelings) as utterly insignificant.

True.  Looks like I missed the point.  My apologies, Pica, and to anyone else to which they may apply.

........Laurry