I guess I have kind of a strange question that I haven't been able to find information on.
Have any FTM guys ever over-compensated for not feeling connected to their bodies by over-sexualizing or objectifying it?
I used to do this as a teenager, when I wore tight clothes and short skirts and showed off my figure so that I could feel pretty and good about my body. I basically used to flaunt it as a sexual object and I was pretty flattered when people showered me with attention. I was still always pretty uncomfortable with the thought of me actually doing anything sexual with my body though; in fact it pretty much turned me off entirely.
I also remember always feeling weird that I never really identified with my body's shape or the way that it looked. I took a lot of pictures at that age because I was trying to get myself to map out what I looked like and recognize myself and I never could. And then later on I grew pretty depressed and felt stifled and I felt like I wasn't truly expressing myself. When I finally realized that I could present as male and I started to bind my chest and dress in a way that made my figure more androgynous looking rather than hyperfeminine, it felt a lot more "natural" and "normal" to me and a lot of the depression surrounding my inability to express who I was started to go away.
But yeah, I've always wondered about the whole over-sexualization phase I had and I was wondering if any other guys had experienced the same?
I went through a period of experimentation in college--one day, I would wear a jacket and tie; and the next, I would be decked out in tights and a revealing top and that sort of thing. I was miserable at dressing like a girl, so I came across as weirdly trashy.
I think I was doing battle with myself--revealing my true self one day and then trying desperately to fight it and fit in the next day. I guess you could call it overcompensating. I showed off my chest a lot because guys liked what I had...and I liked guys although I wanted men who wanted men.
What a weird, twisted world I used to inhabit. ::)
I feel like I did some of that too, honestly. I liked guys so I liked showing off to get male attention, but it wasn't until later that I understood the reason I was so uncomfortable with actually dating or following through with these guys was because I wanted a guy who didn't see me as a girl. So I ended up sabotaging everything that I ever started because I grew extremely uncomfortable dating as a girl. It actually wasn't until I met a queer guy who knew that I was a trans guy that I actually felt comfortable enough to pursue something with him.
My first long-term sexual relationship was a mess. Before meeting N, I had a few short-term things--a, um, sex buddy (that's the polite way to put it) with no commitments, and a couple of short relationships, at least one of which I sabotaged (I have a memory lapse about the other one and would love to know what happened).
Then, I met N--a very straight guy. When things started to get serious, I guess I sort of saw my sexual future mapped out only too plainly, and I panicked. I couldn't have sex. I used to freeze up, shut down, freak out. It was really bad. At some point, I guess I made peace with my fate. But I was never 100% comfortable with "straight" sex and being seen as a girl. And yet I did try very hard at times to be a girl. I was just so lousy at it. My idea of acting feminine was a joke. I had long hair, sometimes wore revealing clothing, and pretended to be a sex fiend. That was about it...pretty laughable, really.
I get where your coming from here, when I was in high school I tried to fit in and be a girl, and a little bit through college, but halfway through I ended up in boy mode. I had the long hair, I wore girl clothes, I put a fake smile on and tried to make my family and everyone else happy to fit in. I never wore skirts or dresses though unless it was for something like prom, I think part of myself was fighting with me, cause I felt crazy at the time, like ->-bleeped-<- you want to be a guy, your crazy. anyway I had one sexual/serious relationship with a guy and even then didn't really do anything for me. In order to really get off, I was imagining it was me as a guy ->-bleeped-<-in a chick (my poor ex, I still feel bad), needless to say that didn't last. I think its pretty normal what you went through.
Quote from: bornpurple on February 03, 2014, 11:13:24 PM
Have any FTM guys ever over-compensated for not feeling connected to their bodies by over-sexualizing or objectifying it?
Yeah especially after certain life events. I was miserable.
I tried to do this for a while too just to fit in and I always felt awkward. I then turned to drugs and alcohol because it was the only way I could make myself let loose and not feel foreign dressed like a girl and so that I could go through with the things girls do sexually. Even though I never felt much like a female, I lived as one for many years. I was still jealous of the attention that others would get (male or female) from a sexual standpoint and me being such a tomboy I was always the one that was just a "friend" to everyone. This is when I started to dress in more revealing clothing and turned to drugs and alcohol.
I did this a lot, but I don't particularly see it as overcompensation, some of it was, but mostly I just enjoyed the attention of men - I like men, men liked my body, it was a win win situation. I never tried to fit in with other girls and I didn't wear low cut tops and short skirts to fit in or convince myself I was feminine or whatever - it was purely for the sexy times xD trawling bars as a young, cleavage sporting chick was playing the game on super easy mode.
I think I am unusual in that I have never had any objections to "straight sex" - actual relationships are different, but if it's just sex, I really couldn't care less how I'm being perceived.
I remember in high school especially, things like prom, i hated dressing up so much but i knew my mom would give me hell so i'd just comply ahead of time to avoid being chewed out. I'd rock a dress but i never acted ladylike in one, it just felt like a costume to me, like i was being silly, like a boy in a dress really.
in middle school i tried whereing more dreses and things but i was always very covered up in my clothes, i was always trying to hide my boobs under tons of fabric. i wore a turtleneck almost everyday i could.
Oh yeah. I actually still have a skirt that for some reason that escapes me I think I have to keep. I haven't worn it in ages but I used it as a self punishment thing. Especially in my sophomore year of highschool and my sophomore year of uni.
I used to kinda do this in high school too. I would try to dress feminine sometimes. I had a few phases where I would force myself to wear make-up (saying i was gonna do it every day), but that only ever lasted 3 days at a time. I wore a dress once (all day at school) senior year and i got a lot of compliments on it, but i felt insanely uncomfortable the whole day and had to constantly remind myself that it was going to make me more girly in the long run....it didn't.
I would do this too. I could never keep it up for more than about a week at a time, but I would go through these 'pretending to be a real girl' phases where I'd try to wear make up and skirts and show cleavage. I was never very good at it though.
I would wear really low girly cut tops but then keep my jacket on because I felt uncomfortable at the idea of people staring at my chest.
I'd intend to put on normal makeup to go out to parties but then end up with huge emo eyeliner.
Occasionally I'd get the idea to buy sexy underwear but even being in the lingerie section always creeped me out. I'd try on a couple of lacy things then end up buying plain bras and those underwear that come in a 5 pack anyway. The day that they brought out the 'ahh bra' type bras was a good day for me - it meant I could just order them off the internet without worrying about sizing.
There were definitely times that I felt like I was succeeding and times I felt hot, but most of the time it just made me feel really uncomfortable.
I did this too, I used to dress up (i felt it was that) as a pretty girl. If I had to be a girl I decided I wanted to be pretty, but I never wore 'sexy' clothing like short and things. I wore floorlengthskirts and stuff :p I tried make up a couple of times and while other people said it looked good I felt it looked awfull.
I did this a lot.
I had this cycle of going frilly-girly (or trying, I've never been good at Girl-Mode, and it always coincided with really strong negative emotions about myself) and then slowly returning to my natural state. I'd let my hair grow out for a while, and dress and act weirdly stereotypically female, then gradually start back to more gender-neutral/male clothing, culminating in cutting my hair really short.
I've never been able to make myself date guys, though I did get offers, and the one girlfriend I had made me uncomfortable because she identified very strongly with the 'lesbian' label.
My dad used to say that I reminded him oddly of his strange spinster aunt in the way I acted at the start of these cycles. Now, while I'm not out yet, he says I remind him of his boring older brother.
The longest cycle was nearly three years, and by the end of it I was thinking 'if I just step out in front of the bus,' or 'maybe I'll slip and break my neck down the stairs today' daily.
I've decided that I'm not repeating that behaviour. I don't ever want to feel that way again.
I had a fairly small chest back in the day (A cup) and was mortified at the thought of showing it to anyone. Girls who flaunted their boobs annoyed me; they were obviously getting a lot of attention and I was loathe to have anyone even notice I had the tiny boobs I had, let alone trying to enhance them or wear a low cut top. I did overcompensate to look female otherwise though, just not in a sexy way. I was terrified of sex because the thought of it just weirded me out. I did eventually get over it and got married and had kids, though it was still weird. I never butch-ed it up before transition, either.
Jay
Can I sneak in?
Ok will anyway.
One of the most common questions that gender psychiatrists get from MtF on presentation is 'please help me fit in, how can I be a man' 'I've tried so hard, joined --every 'male' profession sport, activity etc but nothing makes me feel like a man'
Obviously both MtF and FtM have fathered or born children and tried to live as the 'nuclear family' and that doesn't work either.
So my question is, do you think you guys tried to be girly to fit in as 'normal', the concept of trying to cure yourselves as MtF have done?
One aspect of this is MtF pay dearly for it if they have bulked up etc, not sure if that is so true for FtM as you guys tend to pass so very well when T does its magic to you. The MtF of course don't.
If this is inappropriate just say, I'm just interested.
Cindy, you're being curious, not inappropriate. Ask away, I say.
I've tried ever so slightly to be a girl. I never wore dresses, skirts of heels, but I remember one time my mother was allowed to put some make up on me for a work related party. I felt like a clown (make-up is so sticky. How can girls forget it is on their faces?!) but people kept on complimenting me how pretty I looked. Of course, it is great to be considered pretty, and I felt I should be happy with this. And in a way I was. I mean, who doesn't want to be regarded as pretty? But it felt oh so wrong. It wasn't the kind of pretty I wanted. After a few more times of feeling like 'a pretty clown', I gave up. It felt wrong and I couldn't deal with it.
So yes, in a way it is trying to fit in. Women and girls all dress up and like to be pretty, so it's only natural to try and see if that works, with the hope that you enjoy it and never have these trans related thoughts again. Naturally, it never does.
Cindy, for me it was most certainly trying to 'cure' myself in a way. Fitting in as normal probably not so much because I just couldn't fit in anywhere anyway. But when people told me I was pretty I felt as if I was 'better'.
Yes, Cindy, that was my experience. I tried very hard to fit into the F mold. It just didn't fit and was very painful. I'm lucky, I guess, in that I'm gay, so marrying a man seemed natural and not forced, though sex wasn't that appealing to me in that usual way (I was totally in the wrong gender role there!!). I personally didn't like the look of masculine women so I totally went the femme route, though in actuality I was more a tomboy (plaid shirts, jeans, boots, yet earrings, long curly hair, touch of makeup). I tried to really femme it up (stylish haircut, more makeup and jewelry, heels) but that just exacerbated the feelings that I was just pretending and it was horrifically uncomfortable to me. Wearing hose made me want to puke. So special occasions were a nightmare having to dress that part. I would bring a change of clothes and change as soon as possible after the main event. I am also guilty of wearing comfortable clothes (black jeans, sweater) to a wedding instead of a dress (it was the dead of winter and there was fresh ice and snow outside!! Not wearing a dress and heels in that!!)
I don't specifically think I was doing it either to cure myself or to fit in. It was more because I felt like I was supposed to. I have never liked pink, frills or sparkles or anything similar but sometimes I'd see something in a shop and think "F*** it, I'm a girl and I should wear girl things." I would then buy whatever it was, wear it once, hate it and go back to jeans and tshirts.
Part of it has definitely been about fitting in though. When I first started at an office job I also tried at first to buy girly professional clothes so I'd fit in with the women. I pretty quickly gave up on that though and switched to shirts.
My follow up to this would be that many MtF ruin there bodies to some extent by bulking up and trying to be a man, then have to deal with those issues when they transition and deal with the 'man in a dress' comments, due to their physical attributes.
Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?
The reason I ask is that I counsell young transgender people and the MtF I can advise not to bulk up etc, but I'm unsure what to tell young FtM.
Any thoughts?
I've never done that. I spent less than a year trying to be more feminine when I was 12-13 or so, but even then it was masculine female clothes, never even entertained the thought of make up, and it soon ended. My most female haircuts were short ones, trying to get it all cut off but being to scared to ask until I was 14. That whole time I was just awkward.
Overcompensating in the opposite way, as in trying to be more masculine than the boys around me was very real though, and got me into a lot of trouble. I didn't know how to prove myself to them without fighting them, and showing them that I was just as strong, or stronger than they were. It also meant that I bottled up a lot of emotions, and didn't trust anyone. It never got me any further than trying to pretend to be feminine.
Quote from: Cindy on February 09, 2014, 01:58:13 AM
Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?
I think we tend to try very temporary "fitting in" solutions such as long hair, makeup, and stereotypically feminine clothing. Easy to change overnight by cutting the hair, tossing the makeup, and wearing pants.
But a lot of people give us crap if we like pretty things, makeup (even if it's just goth), fingernail polish, earrings, and long hair. And many of us question our own identities because we like some of these things.
Quote from: Cindy on February 09, 2014, 01:58:13 AM
My follow up to this would be that many MtF ruin there bodies to some extent by bulking up and trying to be a man, then have to deal with those issues when they transition and deal with the 'man in a dress' comments, due to their physical attributes.
Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?
The reason I ask is that I counsell young transgender people and the MtF I can advise not to bulk up etc, but I'm unsure what to tell young FtM.
Any thoughts?
Plucking eye brows!! I have a friend that overcompensated this way and now was hugely regretful and was very dysphoric for that. Seems a strange thing but that's the case. Then he went and has his eye brows tatooed in.
BTW, I think the most severe form fo this kind of overcompensation would be eating disorders. To hide their body shape there seems to be a lot of FTM young people that become very obese or get anorexia to make their bodies look more androgynous. I think if they were actually aware they were in the wrong body for their gender, they might not do it and that it is mainly unconscious. Fortunately for me, I chose a different compensation and just wore clothes that were many times too big. At least it's harmless.
--Jay
Quote from: Cindy on February 09, 2014, 01:58:13 AM
My follow up to this would be that many MtF ruin there bodies to some extent by bulking up and trying to be a man, then have to deal with those issues when they transition and deal with the 'man in a dress' comments, due to their physical attributes.
Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?
The reason I ask is that I counsell young transgender people and the MtF I can advise not to bulk up etc, but I'm unsure what to tell young FtM.
Any thoughts?
I agree with Jay on the eating disorders. I knew that there was something which made me uncomfortable with my body, and thought that it was my fat (which I really didn't have much of). I don't think I ever had a full blown eating disorder, but for several months I skipped meals, tried to eat as little as possible, and sometimes tried to make myself vomit, fortunately to no avail. In a way I think I was lucky that I had an infected wound on my hand when I did, because I needed to force myself to try and get the nutrients needed to help fight the infection, and if I had left it longer I think I might have become a lot worse. Even though I now know what my issue with my body is I still have some odd thoughts about it and food sometimes.
Tattoos are another thing which I'd advice people not to do. Feminine tattoos and even tattoo placement are often very different than those that men have. You can have cover up tattoos or laser, but it's never quite the same.
I second the danger of eating disorders. And feminine tattoos are not a good idea. No one wants to be a 30 year old man with a hot pink butterfly tramp stamp.
A few other bits of advice I can think of:
-Waxing all the hair off your body/electrolysis. Don't do that.
-Avoid taking birth control if you can. Your boobs get bigger, your hips get bigger, everything about you feminizes. If you have to, of course, then you have to. But try to avoid it.
-Don't get female cosmetic surgery- nose job, boob job etc. I met an FTM who did that and it's terrible for him.
Finally- arguably most importantly:
-Don't make irresponsible sexual choices! FTM's reeeally pay for this one. A consequence of us hypersexualizing ourselves when in denial is that we often make sexual mistakes to feel like normal girls. This will only lead to bad things- the worst possible outcome being pregnancy. And that is just awful. So please, be safe, don't sleep with people w/o protection just because you want to feel desirable. And for the love of pete DON'T get pregnant on purpose to overcompensate.
I have to say, I can actually relate to so many of the things here. About two or three times a year for about two weeks I'd try as hard as I could to mold myself into what is considered being a real woman. And, I can also relate to believing that the reason why I felt so horrible about myself was because I was fat. Well, I did get pregnant, but that was not planned at all and not done to overcompensate, and I did gain a bit of weight due to that. But, about a year after I gave birth, I lost about 30 pounds in less then two months and continued to drop weight after that. I'd occasionally drop weight in a few days and then my weight would stand still for a few weeks. To tell the truth, this does still occasionally happen to me when my disorphia feels like its too hard to handle and control.
Quote from: Dalex on February 09, 2014, 05:05:20 PM
And, I can also relate to believing that the reason why I felt so horrible about myself was because I was fat.
Yeah. I can relate as well. I think one of the major reasons so many us go through that is because the vast majority of young women struggle with negative body image- so it's easy for us to think "I'm just like those other girls; I just need to be thin and attractive and I'll be fine." It can be for difficult for us to connect our dysphoria to gender at first.
Quote from: aleon515 on February 09, 2014, 01:20:43 PM
Plucking eye brows!! I have a friend that overcompensated this way and now was hugely regretful and was very dysphoric for that. Seems a strange thing but that's the case. Then he went and has his eye brows tatooed in.
BTW, I think the most severe form fo this kind of overcompensation would be eating disorders. To hide their body shape there seems to be a lot of FTM young people that become very obese or get anorexia to make their bodies look more androgynous. I think if they were actually aware they were in the wrong body for their gender, they might not do it and that it is mainly unconscious. Fortunately for me, I chose a different compensation and just wore clothes that were many times too big. At least it's harmless.
--Jay
So true. I'm glad I didn't pluck my eyebrows more than I did. I think I permanently affected the shape (they're quite arched, but still fairly thick) however.
I also notice that there are a great many obese FTMs. It's understandable, but like Jay, I went the opposite direction and tried to lose as much weight as possible to have a skinny shape and smaller moobs/hips/etc.
I definitely used to overcompensate for how awkward my boobs felt by showing them off with low-cut/tight shirts in middle school, and right before I came out I went through a phase where I tried really hard to be a "pretty girl" and wore dresses, earrings, etc.
Interesting point about obesity it is a major problem because many therapists are extremely reluctant to put FtM (and MtF) on hormonal treatment if they are obese. Sadly a significant number of transgender are morbidly obese and it is the second largest cause of death in transgender in Australia.
The reaction of clients to being told to drop weight and that they are morbidly obese is extremely negative in the clinic I'm associated with. The reaction of many is so negative that it is the reason that we are accused of 'gatekeeping' when in fact it is a serious concern for both their ability to successfully assimilate and their ongoing health.
Surgeons are very reluctant to operate on morbidly obese clients due to poor outcome and life threatening side effects.
I hadn't thought of tattoos and eyebrows. Good points thank you. And yes pregnancy is a life changing situation.
I saw "Becoming Chaz" and you can see Chaz has really dropped his weight since transitioning. I am guessing that generally transitioning is life saving and that people will be in a position to put in the effort after transition. I know several people who have. OTOH, I do know those who haven't. Most of the really well-known surgeons here WILL do top surgery on morbidly obese patients, but obviously the risks are higher.
--Jay
Speaking of tattoos.... I actually do have one that has a butterfly, a red one, on my ankle. That is actually a memorial tattoo for my moms who both passed away, but I think I might get that covered with something else but still keep the memorial tattoo idea alive. Just not a butterfly...
Oh man, I typed a big ol' response... but lost it.
Basically, my methods of overcompensation were:
-trying to be super mom, and joining moms groups
-My hair, growing it out super long and obsessing about it. Like it had it's own life.
-Shopping with my mother and dressing to gain her affection.
-makeup and dressing to please others
-over-sexualization, treating my body more like a product to be sold...
-A very difficult, unrelenting desire to be pregnant (finally free of this) and have 2 wonderful kids I love with all my heart.
To answer Cindy's question, my consequences were as follows:
-really bad emotional/processing disorders I'm guessing a lot of the TG community struggles with these though.
-complications from huge weight fluctuations (digestive, metabolism disorders)
-heart problems from excessive estrogen and drugs received during childbirth
-an uneven gait, chronic pain, and other complications from a split pelvis from childbirth & pregnancy
-And more complications relating to reproductive organs....
-oh oh oh I thought of one more... a physical one. My chest... the surgery to correct my chest now will be much more difficult due to tissue damage from them being stretched out.
Anyways, not everyone gets these issues, but yeah. That's a big ol part of my story right now.
To answer both of your questions, Cindy...
For your first question, I never exactly tried to fit in with girls to be "normal". I knew that I wasn't "normal" like most other girls I knew (feminine, heterosexual girls) and the only girls that I really felt a kinship to were tomboys when I was younger because we played similarly. But I was raised to think that prettier was better and so the prettier and more attractive I was the better I thought I was in comparison to other "girls".
For your second question... consequences that came from this...
I had a huge problem with body image when I was younger. I always thought I should be skinnier and have less hips/butt (read: androgynous, though i didn't know the term/concept at the time) and I hated any curves that appeared on me. So when I was younger I had a huge thing to become as thin as possible. I neglected my food intake and counted calories so I could stay as small as possible. When I became a teenager I went through a body positivity phase, where I tried to embrace the body I had and I honestly think it made me even more distant from it. I kept telling myself that nothing was wrong with my body and other people were happy and gorgeous with bodies like mine. So I mimicked them and played dress up, essentially, starting to see my body as more of an object than anything else that I paraded around to get attention.
This led to severe bouts of depression and anxiety when I grew into an older teen. I felt a sense of loss within myself, as if I couldn't recognize who I was, but I still couldn't quite figure out why. But the more and more that I tried to push myself into femininity and showing off my feminine aspects, the more uncomfortable and despondent I felt. I also completely tried to shut out my feelings of wanting to be male/seen as male/be recognized as one of the guys again because I felt that was impossible and I'd never attain it.
Later on, after I realized I was trans, I still went back and forth trying to be a girl for the longest time because my family was a huge obstacle and I knew they'd never accept it. But it got even worse, so every time I tried to force myself to act like a "normal girl" (at this point in time I was actually trying to be normal and fit in), my mental health got even worse and I started having suicidal thoughts and self-harming. And at that point I just kind of gave up and realized there was no way around it.
Also, that warning about birth control that Cloudchamber posted is a good one to consider for FTMs. When I started dating my first boyfriend I went on birth control as a preventative and it made my dysphoria flare up really badly. My mood swings were out of control and I wanted to violently harm people. Also the whole bigger chest and body fat thing wasn't good for me either. And popping a pill a day reminded me that I had internal reproductive organs that I'd rather not have so it sent me into severe panic attacks until I could disassociate from it.
Birth control, def sucks, it made my chest go up one cup size, which I hate, so if someone is serious about transitioning then no to birth control
On another note, does anyone know how long the birth control and its estrogen effects have to be out of your system I guess before starting T? I'm just curious, cause I recently stopped my bc and I'm still seeing a therapist (no t letter yet), but was wondering if this would have any effect? The main reason funny enough that I was put on birth control pills was because my testosterone levels were higher than normal for females (lol go figure)and the birth control was suppose to make me "normal" in a sense.
Ryan 55: I know that birth control usually flushes completely from your body in two to three months- by then things should be in "normal mode" again. I'm exactly not sure how this would work in the context of taking T, but I imagine once you're back to normal you'd be good to go.
thanks cloud I appreciate the advice