The Columbian (http://www.columbian.com/news/state/APStories/AP07122007news166717.cfm)
Jul 11, 10:28 PM EDT
By REBECCA BOONE
Associated Press Writer
An Idaho inmate who considers herself a woman trapped in a man's body - and who castrated herself while in prison - is suing the state in federal court to get female hormone therapy for what she describes as gender identity disorder.
Jenniffer Spencer, who is biologically male and castrated herself using a disposable razor blade in her prison cell, claims the Idaho Department of Correction and its health care providers are violating her constitutional rights and subjecting her to cruel and unusual punishment by failing to diagnose gender identity disorder and treat her with the female hormone estrogen.
And who's constitutional rights did this "convict" violate to wind up in prison?
Quote from: Lori on July 12, 2007, 11:44:31 AM
And who's constitutional rights did this "convict" violate to wind up in prison?
I'm not following your logic on "constitutional rights," Jenniffer Spencer is in prison for breaking the law, then escaping a prison camp. Constitutional rights don't enter into it, unless you include the owner of the stolen car. She gets no sympathy from me, and can wait until she is out and can afford her own surgery.
QuoteThe case began in May 2000, when Spencer - then still using her given name of Randall Gammett - was sentenced to prison for possession of a stolen car. She was sent to a boot camp prison program at Cottonwood, but after an escape attempt was ordered to serve her full sentence for possession of stolen property as well as time for the escape, a total of 10 years.
Quote from: Sandi on July 12, 2007, 12:50:27 PM
I'm not following your logic on "constitutional rights," Jenniffer Spencer is in prison for breaking the law, then escaping a prison camp. Constitutional rights don't enter into it, unless you include the owner of the stolen car. She gets no sympathy from me, and can wait until she is out and can afford her own surgery.
:icon_blahblah:
There is no logic. I'm just making fun of the convict saying their constitutional rights were being violated making the point that they inconvenienced somebody to get in the position they are in.
Not only do I not feel sorry for him/her or whatever they say they are, they should get added time for having a razor blade in the prison cell, and added time for destruction of state property.
I do understand your points, but estrogen is cheap, not hard to follow for medical personnel, and it may result in this person doing much better, being less aggressive, suffering less, thereby making it more likely she will become a productive citizen.
They could follow the SoCs, even in the prison system.
Tara
I agree, I have no sympathy for her. However, I would argue that if she already has a doctors script for E then the state is obligated to provide her, her meds.
She is probably referring to the 8th amendment
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
However, I wouldn't say that withholding a GID diagnosis is unusual and it's certainly not being inflicted.
I mentioned that she should wait until she is out and can pay for her own surgery. I have no problem at all with filling hormone scripts. Nor obtaining one through the proper channels.
I am constantly shocked at the lack of empathy I see at this forum directed toward people much worse off than themselves. It is a fact that transgendered individuals tend to be poor, and undereducated, and often run into problems with the law.
A good example was Brandon Teena. That boy was in all kinds of legal trouble, but all that anyone remembers is that he was murdered by a couple of whack jobs.
I don't know why this person was in possession of a stolen vehicle. But if they are trans-whatever, it is no surprise that they tried to escape a male jail establishment. Why would you stay and take the inevitable abuse?
And why the anger displayed about people trying to help this person? Jealousy? Because they might get something that you are working hard toward, or are being denied? Don't project your problems onto other people. Having someone else in a position of pain and suffering does nothing to help your situation.
The best part of the feminine sprit is love and forgiveness. Try to be more like her.
The mental torture this person went through to enable them to endure the pain of doing that to them self was surely enormous.
[quote="="""]I am constantly shocked at the lack of empathy I see at this forum directed toward people much worse off than themselves. It is a fact that transgendered individuals tend to be poor, and undereducated, and often run into problems with the law.[/quote]
Whether one is transgendered or poor is not an excuse to steal a car, then escape from prison. It is this persons own fault they are in prison, and not the fault of anyone else in society.
It isn't like she was stealing hormones, female clothing, or anything else to do with gender. I can empathize with a person who steals a loaf of bread if their family is hungry. I cannot empathize if that person steals a non-necessity.
QuoteI cannot empathize if that person steals a non-necessity.
Judgment begats judgment. I cannot empathize with all of the pain and suffering that trans-people endure, but I surely try my best to sympathize with their plight. People make mistakes.
I doubt anyone was killed to gain ownership of the vehicle, so I am willing to cut her some slack.
At least half of the neighborhood where I grew up were criminals or criminally involved in one way or another. You've got to give people a chance. Maybe if they help her with her "problem," she will become a more balanced citizen. I'd at least give them until "fool me once..." before I pull out the rug.
Quote from: Sandi on July 12, 2007, 05:53:05 PM
Whether one is transgendered or poor is not an excuse to steal a car, then escape from prison. It is this persons own fault they are in prison, and not the fault of anyone else in society.
Lets see what the SOC says about the matter.
QuoteHormone Therapy and Medical Care for Incarcerated Persons.
Persons who are receiving treatment for gender identity disorders should continue to receive appropriate treatment following these Standards of Care after incarceration. For example, those who are receiving psychotherapy and/or cross-sex hormonal treatments should be allowed to continue this medically necessary treatment to prevent or limit emotional lability, undesired regression of hormonally-induced physical effects and the sense of desperation that may lead to depression, anxiety and suicidality. Prisoners who are subject to rapid withdrawal of cross-sex hormones are particularly at risk for psychiatric symptoms and self-injurious behaviors. Medical monitoring of hormonal treatment as described in these Standards should also be provided. Housing for transgendered prisoners should take into account their transition status and their personal safety.
Either the SOC is valid or it is not. We can't pick and choose which parts we like and support, with that which we don't
For example I fully agree with the following...
QuoteSex Reassignment is Effective and Medically Indicated in Severe GID.
In persons diagnosed with transsexualism or profound GID, sex reassignment surgery, along with hormone therapy and real-life experience, is a treatment that has proven to be effective. Such a therapeutic regimen, when prescribed or recommended by qualified practitioners, is medically indicated and medically necessary. Sex reassignment is not "experimental", "investigational", "elective", "cosmetic", or "optional" in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID.
I have to pick sides here, and I side with Thundra on this.
In addition, if you argue that she can be denied care for GID while in prison (because she's a bad person or because whatever,) then others can argue that WE can be denied medical care for our GID -- even if we can afford to pay for it, just because they see it as wrong.
And please don't start with the deserving/not deserving @^%#*-ola. I'm proudly Liberal/Progressive/Empathetic/Nurturing, and I'm sick and tired of reading about Resident Bush and his dittohead bushies reveling in denying equal treatment in marriage, preparing to veto the Matthew Shepard act and ENDA, and calling us all a bunch of sicko deviants---
---and then coming here to see more of the same directed by Susan's Place members on not one, but TWO different topics of incarcerees who some of y'all (gleefully, it appears,) render judgment that they don't DESERVE to have their medical condition (GID) properly treated while they're incarcerated.
Y'all want to make the U S and A a colder, crueler, more callous place than it's already become?
Karen
Quote from: SusanEither the SOC is valid or it is not. We can't pick and choose which parts we like and support, with that which we don't
There was nothing I posted that is contrary to what you excerpted from the SOC. I'm all for providing hormone replacement, and also therapy as I indicated above. However I'm not for doing the gender surgery at tax payers expense, nor is the SOC.
Quote from: Karen on July 12, 2007, 08:14:20 PM
I have to pick sides here, and I side with Thundra on this.
In addition, if you argue that she can be denied care for GID while in prison (because she's a bad person or because whatever,) then others can argue that WE can be denied medical care for our GID -- even if we can afford to pay for it, just because they see it as wrong.
And please don't start with the deserving/not deserving @^%#*-ola. I'm proudly Liberal/Progressive/Empathetic/Nurturing, and I'm sick and tired of reading about Resident Bush and his dittohead bushies reveling in denying equal treatment in marriage, preparing to veto the Matthew Shepard act and ENDA, and calling us all a bunch of sicko deviants---
---and then coming here to see more of the same directed by Susan's Place members on not one, but TWO different topics of incarcerees who some of y'all (gleefully, it appears,) render judgment that they don't DESERVE to have their medical condition (GID) properly treated while they're incarcerated.
Y'all want to make the U S and A a colder, crueler, more callous place than it's already become?
Karen
I agree. So she stole a car. Maybe she was going to sell it to a chop shop. Trying to get the money for hormones and other things she needed. Bear in mind please that I'm not saying she was right in doing it. But maybe the fact that she might have seen it as her only way out. Health care in the US won't pay for GID issues. Especially not the stuff a person gets from welfare. People often forget that in destitute areas, getting out of them is actually harder than it looks. And saying that she doesn't deserve to have her GID treated with the things she needs, hormones being one thing. Well that just smacks of elitism. Do people really deserve things? They might think they do. The idea of deserving something has always been to me a sign of someone whose family never had to worry about keeping a roof over their head or food in their bellies.
Quote from: Lori on July 12, 2007, 01:05:55 PM
Not only do I not feel sorry for him/her or whatever they say they are, they should get added time for having a razor blade in the prison cell, and added time for destruction of state property.
Whoa! That's pretty callous.
Quote from: PysgodI agree. So she stole a car. Maybe she was going to sell it to a chop shop. Trying to get the money for hormones and other things she needed.
Very possible, or maybe she needed to sell it to a chop shop to feed her family, or maybe she just liked, and wanted the car. However, now that's getting into pure speculation to make excuses alleviate or increase the harshness crime.
Unless her reasons were given in the article, which I didn't see, we are chasing the wind with speculation.
QuoteQuote from: Lori on Today at 01:05:55 PM
Not only do I not feel sorry for him/her or whatever they say they are, they should get added time for having a razor blade in the prison cell, and added time for destruction of state property.
QuoteWhoa! That's pretty callous.
It's misdirected anger. Been there, done that. Part of being a victim. Misery loves company and all that good stuff.
Well he/she stole a car then escaped from prison. Where do you bleeding hearts draw the line? Do we say yes to murderers as well? What if it had been your car? A crime is a crime regardless of the persons mental/physical condition. I still say add more time. I don't care if it sounds callous or not, it is my opinion and I stand by it. I don't care either what the reason was for the theft. There are other ways of getting what you need without commiting a crime.
I dont care if this person was trans, gay, bi, mental, or whatever. The fact is they commited a crime then escaped from jail. They are there because of poor decisions they made.
If what you all are saying is right, then why in the hell am I working hard to save money for surgery? I should just go commit some crimes, escape from jail, go back and then make the state and taxpayers pay for everything. Gee, why didn't I think of that first? I could be getting everything for free. ::)
This has nothing to do with misdrected anger. If you feel so strongly for this individual why don't you take up a collection and pay for the surgery yourself. I have zero sympathy for thieves or criminals. Any assumptions you make about why this person is there is just that. An assumption. The point is it was a personal choice to commit the crime then escape from jail. They have nobody to blame but themselves. Sooner or later, personal responsibility for one's actions has to come into play. Sorry, but compassion for a criminal? :eusa_naughty: My compassion is for the person who's life was upset by some idiot who decided to steal their car.
Quote from: Lori on July 12, 2007, 09:50:34 PM
Well he/she stole a car then escaped from prison. Where do you bleeding hearts draw the line? Do we say yes to murderers as well? What if it had been your car? A crime is a crime regardless of the persons mental/physical condition. I still say add more time. I don't care if it sounds callous or not, it is my opinion and I stand by it. I don't care either what the reason was for the theft. There are other ways of getting what you need without commiting a crime.
I dont care if this person was trans, gay, bi, mental, or whatever. The fact is they commited a crime then escaped from jail. They are there because of poor decisions they made.
If what you all are saying is right, then why in the hell am I working hard to save money for surgery? I should just go commit some crimes, escape from jail, go back and then make the state and taxpayers pay for everything. Gee, why didn't I think of that first? I could be getting everything for free. ::)
This has nothing to do with misdrected anger. If you feel so strongly for this individual why don't you take up a collection and pay for the surgery yourself. I have zero sympathy for thieves or criminals. Any assumptions you make about why this person is there is just that. An assumption. The point is it was a personal choice to commit the crime then escape from jail. They have nobody to blame but themselves. Sooner or later, personal responsibility for one's actions has to come into play. Sorry, but compassion for a criminal? :eusa_naughty:
Yes. But mentally ill prisoners are given treatment and medication. Sick prisoners are given the medication and surgery they need. How is this situation any different? Because treatment for GID is optional? How so? This individual was obviously suffering so much, she resorted to self-mutilation.
I am not against the estrogen, just the surgery. Lets make that clear. On the other hand, are you saying being transgendered is a Mental condition Nero? Or are you saying she is sick because of being transgendered?? What are you saying her condition is? This is different because being transgendered doesn't mean you are sick. It is not a mental condition either ....or to me it is neither. Go ahead and dispute that, but since they really don't know what it is or what causes it, you can argue till you are blue in the face and never prove you are right or wrong. To me, it is a physical demformation of the body, just in case you were going to ask.
Self mutilation is not unheard of. I had a friend in Florida named Dana that was on a yahoo support group. The cops blew her away because she was holding a bloody knife after castrating herself. But that is another story.
This "Jennifer" person commited a crime. Drugs would help, but how much money do we spend on criminals? How much surgery do we pay for and perform? Where do you draw the line?
Quote from: Lori on July 12, 2007, 10:04:54 PM
I am not against the estrogen, just the surgery. Lets make that clear. On the other hand, are you saying being transgendered is a Mental condition Nero? Or are you saying she is sick because of being transgendered?? What are you saying her condition is? Self mutilation is not unheard of. I had a friend in Florida named Dana that was on a yahoo support group. The cops blew her away because she was holding a bloody knife after castrating herself. But that is another story.
This "Jennifer" person commited a crime. Drugs would help, but how much money do we spend on criminals? How much surgery do we pay for and perform? Where do you draw the line?
No, I was just giving examples of conditions that are normally treated.
i belive that if she was alraedy on a script for hormones she should be aloud to carry on taking them if she has never had a script sadly she must wait till her release to start hormones this might feel harsh but at the end of the day she is in prison for a reason and punishment for a crime she commited
sadly she has taken a drasic action and she should recieve help and surport for this to help her while in prison
i myself in the past has been in prison and taken drugs and i admit that it was my own fault noone elses i have now not been in trouble with the law for about 8 years and i am on a program to beat the drugs which is going well i have stopped street drugs and i am atm reducing on methadone and it is going to plan ;D which i am so happy with but i am only to blame for my action just like she is and she should accept that punishment for the crime she did like i did hope you can understand what i am trying to say
(sry im bad at spelling)
OK, I really have to say:
If someone, who apparantly identifies as a transsexual woman, who claims that they were self-medicating prior to being incarcerated, and after being denied HRT while being incarcerated, takes the somewhat drastic step of castrating themselves and then again asks for HRT - why the hell would you then prescribe them testosterone? Not exactly cruel and unusual in the usual definition, but in my opinion it's heading down that pathway.
I really don't think poor life decisions should preclude one from recieving adequate medical treatment. Obviously we don't have all the facts in this one particular instance, I wouldn't for one second claim to know the exact details in this one case. And I'm in no way implying this is the case in this particular matter, but it is entirely possible to be convicted and incarcerated for a crime that one is not guilty of, given the situation that one finds oneself in. Empathise for a moment - guilty or not, put yourself in a situation where the state has convicted you and now has complete control over your existence, and has told you unequivocally that you will not be given the medical care you know that you need. A situation like that breeds desperation.
People make bad choices every day. Some that hurt them, some that hurt others, some that the state takes away their rights for. It's the human condition. I personally have made far too many, some I could have got in a lot of trouble for. I've been lucky. Some are not so lucky. But I fail to see how taking some peoples bad choices and then using them as a reason for them to not recieve the medical care they require is in any way a moral way for society to act.
Megan
Quote from: MeganRose on July 13, 2007, 05:45:10 AM
OK, I really have to say:
If someone, who apparantly identifies as a transsexual woman, who claims that they were self-medicating prior to being incarcerated,
Birth control pills are not HRT and that is what this convict was taking before being incarcerated. I do agree they should allow estrogen because it is cheap and it may help. My argument is the surgery. That is what they are suing for.
OK, I thought she was suing about being denied HRT - to tell the truth I didn't see one mention of surgery in this article. Maybe I'm not reading between the lines?
In a lot of instances though, one would have to accept that SRS can be just as medically necessary for an individual as HRT. Sure, it can cost a hell of a lot more. Is that the only reason why you think someone who has made some stupid decisions and who now has no right to seek their own medical treatment without government intervention should be denied such a treatment?
Megan
Quote from: MeganRose on July 13, 2007, 07:15:35 AM
OK, I thought she was suing about being denied HRT - to tell the truth I didn't see one mention of surgery in this article. Maybe I'm not reading between the lines?
In a lot of instances though, one would have to accept that SRS can be just as medically necessary for an individual as HRT. Sure, it can cost a hell of a lot more. Is that the only reason why you think someone who has made some stupid decisions and who now has no right to seek their own medical treatment without government intervention should be denied such a treatment?
Megan
That surgery comment was directed to another individual, not you. I have stated twice already that I do not disagree with HRT. Perhaps you have failed to read that. I dont know how much clearer I can be about it. I agree this person should get estrogen....for the third time. But that is where my "empathy" stops.
If the state pays for that surgery where does it stop? Having a penis is not a life threatening illness. Perhaps in this one case it may be if you want to assume the worst. If they pay for that surgery, wouldnt that open the door for them to pay for all surgeries?
And no that is not the only reason. There is an old saying "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime".
Should we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.
Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.
Am I being non empathetic to these people or is that an entirely differnt thing to you and you have no empathy for them either?
So why give surgery to a car theif who tried to escape from prison? Give them drugs and let them be the same as everybody else.
All I want as a transgendered person is to be treated like everybody else. Just because this person happens to be TS should not grant them any rights not granted to other prisoners. This convict should be treated the same as everybody else. I have zero empathy for any prisoner, and this person TS status is not going warm my heart. In fact it makes me madder for the example set forth to the "community". I shun this person for their actions.
Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 06:44:36 AM
Birth control pills are not HRT and that is what this convict was taking before being incarcerated. I do agree they should allow estrogen because it is cheap and it may help. My argument is the surgery. That is what they are suing for.
There's something else to consider, and it's been brought up in one of these topics. Are we going to throw her into a male population becayse she still has the penis she was born with? What are the sociopathic hyper-males going to do to her? Are we going to deny placing her with the OTHER women, simply because she was (again) born with that danged penis? I mean, they might (gasp) have FUN over there, or something. If we're concerned that she may be abused by the male population, do we throw her in the Solitary Confinement called Protective Custody, to slowly go crazy?
If she had been born with a vagina, she'd get the same treatment as other female convicts, and NO WORSE. Her penis is making whatever punishment she is meted 'way worse than the str8s who are incarcerated.
While we're on this national kick of prison-building, perhaps we had better consider a special facility just for homo and trans folks. That way we can satisfy the conservative 'retribution' blood-lust without inviting calls from the liberal/progressives of 'cruel and unusual'.
Karen
OK, so I was being a little facetious, for that I apologise. I know the HRT and the surgery issues seems to be a little different here. It's just that the only difference that I am detecting is the difference in cost between them.
Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 07:42:27 AM
Should we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.
Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.
Am I being non empathetic to these people or is that an entirely differnt thing to you and you have no empathy for them either?
I think you are using bad examples here. How is letting a TS person, convicted of a non-related crime to their gender identity having surgery hurting anyone else, aside from the fraction of a cent it would be taking from your tax bill? Comparing something like this to giving child molesters children to molest, and rapists people to rape, is rather offensive in my opinion. Last I heard, being transsexual and needing surgery wasn't a criminal offence, at least where I live.
And really, when did incarcerating people become all about inflicting suffering upon them for the crimes they have commited? Call me crazy, but isn't the idea of the whole system that people be rehabilitated, so they can be released and then function in society as happy, status-quo abiding, law-keeping citizens? How is inflicting suffering upon these people going to achieve that? Guess I'm not seeing the big picture here.
Megan
It comes down to that SEVERAL of the state's doctors stated that she does not have GID. Her own doc says that she does. The real questions are:
How much background exists with the state's doctors that examined this individual?
What else has this individual been treated for in the past? It is quite possible that this person has gone around the bend.
Surgery. I will go by this guideline. If the state insurance for state employees covers SRS then prisoners who are under the state care should be able to pursue this option or sue for it. However, if successful it should open the door to anyone who has the state insurance plan.
If we are going to take the position that treatment--including surgery--for GID is medically necessary, for any of us, then unless we are going to simply deny prisoners medical treatment of all kinds on the ground that "they don't deserve it"--which is obviously an untenable position from any standpoint in a civilized society--I don't see how you can pick and choose about what kinds of medical treatment prisoners will be allowed to have:
Yeah, you can have antibiotics for your pneumonia, and insulin for your diabetes, but dammit, you deserve to be depressed, so no antidepressants for you, and hormones because you want to be a woman?? Forget about it, you scum!
I don't see how anyone can support that position; even from a purely logical point of view, it fails, and ethically/morally it's a disaster. I think the prisoner has to be allowed the hormones, and even the surgery, because there simply isn't any ground to deny it. I agree with those who have pointed out that the incarceration itself is the punishment we as a society have decided to impose, and deciding that prisoners should suffer more by being made to endure various other kinds of deprivation--including medically necessary treatment--for punitive reasons is a slippery slope indeed.
I agree, Rob. I've posted the opposite in the past, because of my concern that the rest of Americans aren't covered, but it's a false comparison. If prisoners get medical care, they ought to get care for all medical issues.
I still think it's a tragedy that much of the American populace has to pay for basic health care and that an illness or an accident can ruin a person financially.
Dennis
Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 07:42:27 AM
Should we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.
Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.
Am I being non empathetic to these people or is that an entirely differnt thing to you and you have no empathy for them either?
Ok, now you're just sounding ridiculous here. I'm assuming you didn't intend it this way, but now you sound as if you are equating the sick desires of pathological monsters to GID.
Quote from: RobIf we are going to take the position that treatment--including surgery--for GID is medically necessary, for any of us, then unless we are going to simply deny prisoners medical treatment of all kinds on the ground that "they don't deserve it"--which is obviously an untenable position from any standpoint in a civilized society--I don't see how you can pick and choose about what kinds of medical treatment prisoners will be allowed to have:
Everyone here (or I think almost all) agree with providing prisioners HRT and therapy. Yes, surgery is "medically necessary," for most with GID, but not all, some do not want it. Still others would want it, but opt out for other reasons; i.e. family.
The reason for my denying surgery position has nothing to do with the fact that they are a prisoner. It has to do with who pays for it. I don't expect to have my tax dollars go towards any transsexual's surgery in society anywhere, nor my own. If it isn't ok for tax dollars to pay for surgery for the rest of us—and it surely isn't—it certainly isn't ok to pay for anyone's surgery in prison. If the prisioner can pay for it with their own funds, by all means let them have it.
Quote from: MeganRose on July 13, 2007, 08:11:13 AM
I think you are using bad examples here. How is letting a TS person, convicted of a non-related crime to their gender identity having surgery hurting anyone else, aside from the fraction of a cent it would be taking from your tax bill? Comparing something like this to giving child molesters children to molest, and rapists people to rape, is rather offensive in my opinion. Last I heard, being transsexual and needing surgery wasn't a criminal offence, at least where I live.
And really, when did incarcerating people become all about inflicting suffering upon them for the crimes they have commited? Call me crazy, but isn't the idea of the whole system that people be rehabilitated, so they can be released and then function in society as happy, status-quo abiding, law-keeping citizens? How is inflicting suffering upon these people going to achieve that? Guess I'm not seeing the big picture here.
Megan
The point of the examples was because somebody brought up Mental Anguish caused by GID. Well Rapists and child molester suffer mental Anguish for not getting their needs met. I was then slammed for not having a pity party for this person. What I am saying is treat all prisoners equally. Where do you draw the line? The fact that this individual taking HRT will not harm somebody else but the taxpayers, then I say if it relieves the Mental Anguish then it should be allowed. But it isnt fair to those with mental sexual issues is it.
People convicted of crimes should suffer just as their victims had. The point here is their victims didnt have a choice. The criminal did have a choice. So instead of treating them like victims for their poor decisions, it is in my mind to hope they do suffer for their crimes. I don't know how Australian prisons work, but the 1 I have seen (not because I was incarcerated) but because one of my friends works in one, is that they come in with a minor in car theft and leave with a masters in truck heists. To properly rehabiliate somebody they must pay for their crime. They must be broken down and made uncomfortable at the least. Most of them just need their butt's kicked in. I think its disgusting how they have cable TV, pool tables, and recreation areas. They should be in a dark dank cell with pictures of their victims.
I realise car theft is not that huge of a crime but think about the victim. People depend on their transportation. In this area I live in, there is little to no publlic transportaion. You lose your car, you could lose your job. My boss doesnt care how I come to work. He just cares that I am there and on time. If I cannot get there I am replaceable. Then there is the cost of paying your insurance deductable. Then you only get a portion of what the car is worth according to the insurance agency and it usually far below what you owe. Then say you are upside down on the payments wich is VERY likely since almost every car depreciates and you didnt get enough to pay off the loan? You still need a car but you will end up making two car payments, one to satisfy the old loan, and the second for the new car, wich most people cannot afford to do.
I'm not saying this is what happened to the victim of the car theft but it is a very likey scenario and very common. This also causes everybodies insurance rates to go up. Idiots that steal cost society in many ways and I have zero empathy for them.
Quote from: Sandi on July 13, 2007, 09:35:23 AM
The reason for my denying surgery position has nothing to do with the fact that they are a prisoner. It has to do with who pays for it. I don't expect to have my tax dollars go towards any transsexual's surgery in society anywhere, nor my own. If it isn't ok for tax dollars to pay for surgery for the rest of us—and it surely isn't—it certainly isn't ok to pay for anyone's surgery in prison. If the prisioner can pay for it with their own funds, by all means let them have it.
I mostly agree with that. But, I think it depends on the extent of the prison term for me. If the transperson has a life sentence or will most likely die before their time is up or be too old to have SRS, I think surgery should be given to them. To live without any hope of congruency, would be devastating for many. I think at the point it could be a life and death situation. The difference between a trans prisoner doing major time and a poor transperson is that the poor transperson still has hope of someday getting SRS. Hope is the only thing keeping most TS alive.
Quote from: Sandi on July 13, 2007, 09:35:23 AM
I don't expect to have my tax dollars go towards any transsexual's surgery in society anywhere, nor my own. If it isn't ok for tax dollars to pay for surgery for the rest of us—and it surely isn't—it certainly isn't ok to pay for anyone's surgery in prison. If the prisioner can pay for it with their own funds, by all means let them have it.
The only health coverage I have, currently, is Medicare (I'm on Social Security disability) which is federally funded, and therefore, presumably, at least in part paid by tax dollars--yours, mine and ours, if you live in the US. I've been told by several people who've done it that I can probably get my hormone treatment covered by Medicare, and refusals to pay for GID-related surgeries are already--I'm told--being successfully challenged in the courts.
Now, Medicare will already cover a surgery I need on my shoulder, no question.
Again, I have to ask, why should SRS be any different, if it's
medically necessary? As a taxpayer, you are willing to let me get shoulder surgery but not the top surgery that I need as part of my treatment for GID at taxpayer expense? Why?
Quote from: Nero on July 13, 2007, 09:26:24 AM
Ok, now you're just sounding ridiculous here. I'm assuming you didn't intend it this way, but now you sound as if you are equating the sick desires of pathological monsters to GID.
Who are you to decide that one persons mental anguish is different from anothers? According to many people here, criminals in prison should not have to suffer mental anguish because they are convicted. It is a well documented fact that those with sexual mental issues live in anguish for not getting what they need. If you want to be so politically correct and bleeding heart, don't pick and choose who's suffering to ease. Help them all or dont' help any of them.
Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 09:48:41 AM
Quote from: MeganRose on July 13, 2007, 08:11:13 AM
I think you are using bad examples here. How is letting a TS person, convicted of a non-related crime to their gender identity having surgery hurting anyone else, aside from the fraction of a cent it would be taking from your tax bill? Comparing something like this to giving child molesters children to molest, and rapists people to rape, is rather offensive in my opinion. Last I heard, being transsexual and needing surgery wasn't a criminal offence, at least where I live.
And really, when did incarcerating people become all about inflicting suffering upon them for the crimes they have commited? Call me crazy, but isn't the idea of the whole system that people be rehabilitated, so they can be released and then function in society as happy, status-quo abiding, law-keeping citizens? How is inflicting suffering upon these people going to achieve that? Guess I'm not seeing the big picture here.
Megan
The point of the examples was because somebody brought up Mental Anguish caused by GID. Well Rapists and child molester suffer mental Anguish for not getting their needs met. I was then slammed for not having a pity party for this person. What I am saying is treat all prisoners equally. Where do you draw the line? The fact that this individual taking HRT will not harm somebody else but the taxpayers, then I say if it relieves the Mental Anguish then it should be allowed. But it isnt fair to those with mental sexual issues is it.
People convicted of crimes should suffer just as their victims had. The point here is their victims didnt have a choice. The criminal did have a choice. So instead of treating them like victims for their poor decisions, it is in my mind to hope they do suffer for their crimes. I don't know how Australian prisons work, but the 1 I have seen (not because I was incarcerated) but because one of my friends works in one, is that they come in with a minor in car theft and leave with a masters in truck heists. To properly rehabiliate somebody they must pay for their crime. They must be broken down and made uncomfortable at the least. Most of them just need their butt's kicked in. I think its disgusting how they have cable TV, pool tables, and recreation areas. They should be in a dark dank cell with pictures of their victims.
I realise car theft is not that huge of a crime but think about the victim. People depend on their transportation. In this area I live in, there is little to no publlic transportaion. You lose your car, you could lose your job. My boss doesnt care how I come to work. He just cares that I am there and on time. If I cannot get there I am replaceable. Then there is the cost of paying your insurance deductable. Then you only get a portion of what the car is worth according to the insurance agency and it usually far below what you owe. Then say you are upside down on the payments wich is VERY likely since almost every car depreciates and you didnt get enough to pay off the loan? You still need a car but you will end up making two car payments, one to satisfy the old loan, and the second for the new car, wich most people cannot afford to do.
I'm not saying this is what happened to the victim of the car theft but it is a very likey scenario and very common. This also causes everybodies insurance rates to go up. Idiots that steal cost society in many ways and I have zero empathy for them.
Empathy is a virtue I guess not everyone has been gifted with.
Quote from: Nero on July 13, 2007, 09:53:14 AM
Empathy is a virtue I guess not everyone has been gifted with.
And some have too much. I will never feel sorry for a felon/convict/criminal. My empathy is only for victims and their families.
Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 09:52:58 AM
Quote from: Nero on July 13, 2007, 09:26:24 AM
Ok, now you're just sounding ridiculous here. I'm assuming you didn't intend it this way, but now you sound as if you are equating the sick desires of pathological monsters to GID.
Who are you to decide that one persons mental anguish is different from anothers? According to many people here, criminals in prison should not have to suffer mental anguish because they are convicted. It is a well documented fact that those with sexual mental issues live in anguish for not getting what they need. If you want to be so politically correct and bleeding heart, don't pick and choose who's suffering to ease. Help them all or dont' help any of them.
The difference is that 'easing the mental anguish' of a child molester would make one party to the crime, not to mention the harm to the victim. Treating a person's GID is not a crime.
Sure, child molesters, serial killers, cannibals, etc. suffer deep anguish. They'd have to to commit the atrocities they do - but their paraphilia is not the same as GID. Unless you view GID as a paraphilia and not a biological condition.
Quote from: Nero on July 13, 2007, 10:01:38 AM
The difference is that 'easing the mental anguish' of a child molester would make one party to the crime, not to mention the harm to the victim. Treating a person's GID is not a crime.
Sure, child molesters, serial killers, cannibals, etc. suffer deep anguish. They'd have to to commit the atrocities they do - but their paraphilia is not the same as GID. You're making it sound as if it is.
I'm just trying to draw the distinction that if you want to be so pollitically correct and fair, if you help one prisoner for mental anguish, you should help them all. Obviously there is no way to ease the suffering of a child molester or a rapists that is morally correct with the exception of putting a bullet in their head wich I am all for. So they have to suffer because we cannot do that either and they must live and deal with their mental anguish. Too bad for them right? To me fair is fair. All prisoners should be treated equally. Yet we choose to help one prisoner because it doesnt hurt anybody, and let the others suffer.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that child molesters and rapists in prison do receive treatment, in the form of counseling, psychotherapy, rehabilitation programs, and even, in some cases, chemical or surgical castration (maybe I'm tripping, but it seems to me I've heard of this happening) in an attempt to suppress their desire to commit the crime again, because some of them are going to be released back into society just because of the way our justice system works, so it is in the best interest of society to at least try to treat them to reduce recidivism.
Yeah, they do recieve that and sometimes chemical castration.
Quote from: Rob on July 13, 2007, 10:34:32 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that child molesters and rapists in prison do receive treatment, in the form of counseling, psychotherapy, rehabilitation programs, and even, in some cases, chemical or surgical castration (maybe I'm tripping, but it seems to me I've heard of this happening) in an attempt to suppress their desire to commit the crime again, because some of them are going to be released back into society just because of the way our justice system works, so it is in the best interest of society to at least try to treat them to reduce recidivism.
Strangely enough, I grew up with a kid who went on to be featured on the Megan's Law website as a registered sex offender. My sisters and I have been kind-of following his case since we spotted his name in an article in the paper.
Recently, I found he'd volunteered to be castrated in order to curb his compulsion. The article mentioned a study that concluded that castration -- either real or with drugs -- did reduce or eliminate the compulsion the sexual predators feel. The article also mentioned mental health professionals and family members who had seen a marked change in his personality. Even his sister, who had before argued for his permanent incarceration, was now arguing for his release based on this change.
But there wer naysayers who argued that even if he had an orchiectomy AND a penectomy, he was still a pervert sex offender who could 'still use his hands and mouth' and would be to his dying day and should be incarcerated for just exactly that long.
They said he was born that way, AND he had a choice. Folks, ya' can't have it both ways. EITHER he was born that way, and can't help it because his system is out of whack relative to 'normal' people, and we need to find some treatment that actually reduces or eliminates the urges he is feeling that provoke him to act, OR he could choose not to do it just as easily as you, I, or most anyone else could choose not to do it.
I can't think of harming a child but a cold, sickening shudder races through me. Most people are that way, but some few are not. Can a normal person even remotely entertain doing what we do without thinking it's one of the stupidest, most scary things they could ever do? Could you talk someone into transitioning if they're not trans? Can you talk one of us into NOT transitioning? I rest my case...
Karen
QuoteShould we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.
Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.
I will simply chalk this up to an emotional outburst, because I know. Yes, I know that you are not really trying to make an analogy wherein:
SRS is to a transgendered person, as
child victim is to pedophile.
-or-
SRS is to a transgendered person, as
woman victim is to rapist.
I think that you can see where I am going with this. Apples and oranges.
SRS is not a crime, and child molestors and rapists are not in need of a surgical correction for a physical deformity. But I think you already know that.
You are lashing out in anger. Been there a good deal of my life.
Here is what I had to learn. Feeling good, or even vindicated by forcing someone else to undergo the same pain, suffering and anguish as you, does nothing to improve your situation, or their's. Advocating that someone else be denied a service you cannot have, whether out of resentment for their good fortune, or because of misguided ideology does nothing to help them or you.
If someone cutting on themselves, possibly leaving them with the inability to have the surgery they desire in the future, does not move you to some kind of the smallest amount of compassion, than I am afraid that you are not in a place to clearly hear anyone on this forum.
You are too caught up in your own pain and anguish right now.
QuoteAnd some have too much. I will never feel sorry for a felon/convict/criminal. My empathy is only for victims and their families.
And that is your right, to hold that belief. But consider this.
Does it make sense to lump in a car thief with a rapist or a pedophile?
A pedophile attacks and harms a child, affecting him/her for the rest of their lives. I personally would pull the trigger if I caught someone harming a child. Seriously. We agree there.
A rapist attacks and brutalizes a woman, possibly turning her into a victim for the rest of her life. It's like being in a prison. My belief is that rapists should be chemically or physically castrated. Seriously. We agree there too.
But a person that boosts a car where no one is hurt, maimed, or killed is not the same thing.
Sure, I can see where it might have made life more difficult for the person whose vehicle got jacked. But if that person was not in the vehicle, and was not harmed, odds are that it was someone that had a nice car, and insurance ~ which means that they were momentarily inconvenienced. It's an inantimate object for Pete's sake. Do you really want to make a case where the pain and suffering caused to a woman or child is on the same level of the inconvenience caused by stealing someone's car? I don't.
Now, this person that "took things into their own hands" might be feeling the same things as you -- be just a tortured as you. They made a bad decision. But, I would also ask you to consider this. Did anyone ever show them a different way out? You are being responsible and working hard, which is a positive attribute for sure. But maybe she can't see that. If she can't, than is slapping her away with a bunch of men where she will be abused or worse be solving anything? In my experience, and I am older than dirt, no it will not. It will make them become even more crazed and bitter about their situation, and possibly motivate them to elevate their crime the next time, because when a person feels that they have nothing to lose, one of us usually does.
Finally, I ask you this. If the US had the same kind of insurance system as our sister-nations like G.B or Canada, would you still be so upset? I mean, if your SRS was going to be paid for, just as her's would be while in prison, would you still be upset? As upset? Only you know the real answer to that question.
Life is hard. We all bear it's scars. Some are deeper than others, and some are covered in them. I for one do not want the karma of helping someone else deal with more than they already have. WE as a nation spend billions and billions and billions killing, maiming, murdering, brutalizing, oppressing, and occupying other people around the world. Compared to the cost of spending a little money to help one person in pain, I am not too concerned about breaking the bank. You capiche paisan? I come from a world that is meaner and starker than anything Hollywood can imagine. I walked away and want no part of it. If this person has experienced a part of that world, than it would be to the advantage of everyone to help them escape.
Pay me now, or pay me later. But someone will ultimately pay. Unless someone is able to nreak the circle of violence and crime. This topic started out as a news story about treating a prisoner, but the more important story here, is whether compassion is a good or a bad thing.
I believe that those who show mercy when harshness is needed will show harshness when mercy is needed. Neither is justice.
I'm just not sure which side of this case that belief puts me on.
Well, since transsexualism is a medical condition, I believe that she should get HRT in the same way that a diabetic inmate receives insulin.
tink :icon_chick: