I received this from someone who may think I'm still on the Staff. I have no way of forwarding it, may I suggest that the management makes their contact information available?
"The post of the cis woman speaking of mtf In a very bad way resounds quite similar to who? The terf community. She is reciting the incidents that Cathy brennan and pacific justice institute faked in the news. She is looking for us to doubt ourselves. And she is getting it. Look around what is going on in the world? All the trans bills all the sudden in USA and Canada. I rarely write anymore but that thread needs to be killed and everyone wake up and see who is who. The op was clearly full of ->-bleeped-<-"
Thanks Dev.
I'm sorry I didn't equate Cathy Brennan to the OP. There is a vocal anti trans group out there that wants to repress our rights, limit our freedoms, and ultimately place us in danger. We do have to be concerned and aware.
BUT PLEASE EVERYONE. Lets not start that thread up again just because we can. Let's let it end, and cool off for now.
I expect this to be removed once the staff reads it, this is the only communication option left to me, so I use it. I'm not trying to restart the thread.
Hugs, Devlyn
Thank you for the alert. I hear there are a few Bills being presented in Salt Lake City pretty soon, along the same repressive lines.
Huggs
Catherine
I'm sorry when something smells it smells
Why does everyone insist she's lying? Cause at the end of the day? To the people on this board, women's rights take back seat to trans* rights. You would NEVER say an experience a trans* person went through was invalid, but everyone feels perfectly fine saying her's was simply because she's cis.
I honestly don't know her mind or motivation. However, NOTHING in her post was hard for me to believe. Wana know why? I've BEEN sexually harrassed by transpeople before. I even know someone who was in an attempted rape situation.
I know how this is going to sound, but I didn't see any of the younger tgirls doubting it. Why? Maybe because we're more likely targets for sexual harrassment in this community. I know that sounds mean, but maybe this is so unfathomable to you all because many lived the first 40+ years of your lives as men.
This is not meant to sound hateful. It's recognizing that experiences are different. Some transgirls are bigger targets for sexual harrassment than others. Some people exploit the transgender community for sexual means...these are realities people.
I don't judge. I just don't live in lala land. I recognize.
EDIT:
also, read her subsequent posts, they were very genuine and other standing and all you all did was make her feel like a bad person for being treated badly.
I believe her story and I am so disgusted by the way members of this board represented the trans* community.
I'm honestly just hoping that it's not true, because if it is, it invalidates the rights that I thought I was fighting for. How the hell can I say to people that I'm not a threat if there really are people who are abusing trans rights to harass cis-women? It makes me feel marginalized, and further trapped in that hellish between area where I know that being in the men's room is wrong but I can't reasonably ask to use the women's facilities either.
The possibility that that really is going on hurts, and makes me further embarrassed of who I am. If that is a true story, then shame on the trans woman would do that to her own kind, ruining it for the so many of us that just want to blend in and be accepted. And if it's not true, then shame on those who invented the story, trying to make us feel further like freaks who don't belong in their areas.
I don't believe she was lieing. Nor do I believe the person she encountered had any ill intent. It could have just as likely been an accident.
She wanted to understand us, but a number of us simply ASSUMED. OH SHE MUST BE A LIAR.
@Carrie, I feel bad about that, but the reaction is simple. Blame the perpetrator's not the victims and express that they are NOT genuinely apart of this community. Like, Jesus, you all are worse than the Pope cover ups..and you know how that makes the Catholic church look? Like a cult.
I am NOT a cultist. I was born differently, thats all. I don't need this stupid community giving me and others like me a bad name we never earned for the sake of being PC and not hurting people cuz it's hurting ME and others like me and I'm sick of it.
You can't keep hiding these incidents and burying them under the rug. And honestly? My reaction isn't feeling shame, I just realize how little I identify with different aspects of this community. Not all trans identified people are alike. Realize that and you won't feel shame.
Quote from: jussmoi4nao on February 19, 2014, 11:19:36 AM
I know how this is going to sound, but I didn't see any of the younger tgirls doubting it. Why? Maybe because we're more likely targets for sexual harrassment in this community. I know that sounds mean, but maybe this is so unfathomable to you all because many lived the first 40+ years of your lives as men.
I didn't comment because there was no reason for me to. Everything I wanted to say was already being said by other members. I'm not in the older crowd, nor the younger. I am 31 years old, so basically in the middle. I'm sad to say I have experienced an extremely large amount of sexual harassment from both the trans and cis population. However, not all of my experiences have been negative as she states her have been. That is why I doubt her story. The fact that she only has negative stories to convey seems a little bit hard to believe, for me anyway. However, if you read the first posts on the thread you will notice that not everyone villainized her. Another thing I think we should all keep in mind that, like Shan pointed out, there are people out there who will come to places like this just to create strife and conflict. We all need to be aware of such attempts, and be wary of them.
I would also ask that you don't single out any particular age groups. Those that transitioned later in life have the same effects from hormones that the younger ones do. On top of that, they have the wisdom and life experience to recognize things that the younger population may not be able to recognize. I personally feel that many of the 40+ women on here are quite beautiful and attractive. I also know that many of them have faced the same harassment that the younger ones have. The difference is they are a bit more experienced in handling it. Please, keep these types of things in perspective.
Thanks :)
Excuse me, but many of us didn't say she was lying. Many of even believed it could happen and sympathized with her concerns/experiences. However, we also do a better job explaining that we are not all like that and explain who we are and how this stuff can impact us. I have nothing against the op, but I don't feel I was out of line trying to reach out and describe it from the perspective of a straight transwoman. And it's unfair that trans lesbians get a bad name from other elements of the broader transgender community. So, no cult, just a dose of reality about what many of us face. Its a complex issue that requires understanding from cis women and compassion for the experiences many other transexuals face because of that stuff.
I do know there are festishists out there, but I don't think they are representative on all of us and should taint everyone (which includes you). There are legit concerns for both people involved. All we can do is educate and explain our individual experience while realizing there are problems that should be addressed. How that is disgusting is beyond me.
I think it basically irrelevant whether or not she's telling the true she came and told a story of something that occurs every day on this planet. there are screwed up people out there, period. The people she was talking to do had absolutely nothing to do with these incident nor could in any way do any thing about them. the police were her proper way to go. The problem here is that she basically seemed to the the entire community for supposedly random encounters which again no one in her shouting distance could do any thing about except argue that its not the community ,but individuals. It seemed to me what she was saying was that if an oriental man exposed him self in a place she happened to be at that all Oriental's are suspect and should be questioned about why this happen. As far as I'm concerned I don't no if she a troll or not. When I hear a story over the internet on a web page for transgender issues by an anonymous individual who's name , sex are totally unverified basically accusing a whole community of some how being in some way responsible for the actions of others , yes it bothers me . No one on this planet would find immoral or inappropriate behavior defensible. You just can't come to a groups web page and imply that some how the entire community is responsible in even the minutest of ways for some one else's action.
Quote from: jussmoi4nao on February 19, 2014, 11:42:36 AM
@Carrie, I feel bad about that, but the reaction is simple. Blame the perpetrator's not the victims and express that they are NOT genuinely apart of this community. Like, Jesus, you all are worse than the Pope cover ups..and you know how that makes the Catholic church look? Like a cult.
I am NOT a cultist. I was born differently, thats all. I don't need this stupid community giving me and others like me a bad name we never earned for the sake of being PC and not hurting people cuz it's hurting ME and others like me and I'm sick of it.
You can't keep hiding these incidents and burying them under the rug. And honestly? My reaction isn't feeling shame, I just realize how little I identify with different aspects of this community. Not all trans identified people are alike. Realize that and you won't feel shame.
Is the language necessary? It doesn't make you one iota more credible.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 19, 2014, 11:57:03 AM
Is the language necessary? It doesn't make you one iota more credible.
I reported it to the moderator in hope it will be edited. I personally don't talk with that language, nor do I want to read it. Also, it makes the entire post sound aggressive and a bit like an attack. Just my opinion.
QuoteTo the people on this board, women's rights take back seat to trans* rights.
this is hurtful, insulting, and offensive. to me, at the very least.
everywhere else in the world, outside of the safe spaces that people try to build for trans people (and like all attempts at creating safety, trans safe spaces aren't perfect, no, but i think the people in charge of them do their best, which is all i think anyone can ask for), those are places where trans people (especially trans women) are thrown under the bus to make cis people feel better.
it doesn't matter whether the experiences that this woman shared are true or false. if they're true—which i have no reason to disbelieve—they're valid, which is fine. it's unfortunate and terrible that she would have her personal boundaries assaulted. but it is not incumbent upon a trans safe space to explain its existence to her, and it is not up to her to question the validity of trans women. she asks,
Quotewhy are these mtf people I have met all about sex
and that's an attack on the legitimacy of my existence. i mean, my experiences with cis women—ostensibly in feminist spaces—have frequently been no different! i've had invasive questions about my body, suffered emotional blackmail and abuse within relationships that centred around my transness, to the point where my expectations for cis women have been that they will disregard my personal space and my rights to privacy. but i don't say "why are all these cis people i have met all about sex" in my attempts at coalition-building with cis people, because that isn't the point. on the other hand, to walk into a safe space for trans people and say that trans women have hurt you doesn't feel like an attempt at coalition-building or outreach to me. it doesn't mean that what she's said isn't true, but i don't think that means that this is the place for it.
to place the rights of trans women as somehow separate or in conflict with the rights of cis women is especially dangerous in my view, because it's that very same line of thinking that says that trans women are in some sort of inalienable way males who intend to penetrate women's spaces and dominate discourse and make all of the cis women feel unsafe. and in my experience, outside of the very small personal communities that i've established with close friends, when people talk about women's rights, trans women are rarely discussed, rarely acknowledged, and when they are it's frequently been in order to set them apart, and implicitly authorize oppression against them.
any movement for women's rights that don't include trans women with them, just like it should women of colour, just like it should disabled women, just like it should queer women, is no women's rights movement at all. it's an instrument of hostility and marginalization, and a rejection of sisterhood.
I think we've steered a little off topic. :D
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 19, 2014, 11:57:03 AM
Is the language necessary? It doesn't make you one iota more credible.
I honestly don't even think about swearing. If the moderators don't approve, I'm sure they can edit that part out. But honestly it's just a word.
Regardless, I don't need to lend credibility to my argument. I didn't say anything wrong.
The funny thing is how passive aggressive (or just aggressive) people on this board get if you say word 1 about anything that brings up something you don't wana face.
And I know I'm sounding like a jerk and I'm sorry about that or if I'm upsetting anyone.
Again, who said this stuff doesn't happen and that there aren't problems in the trans community? It didn't seem like most did. I don't know why you can't have compassion for someone and understand the reason for their concerns while simultaneously wanting people to understand you aren't some predator and many others are't either. So you know, she won't be comfortable with ANY transwomen in the bathroom which includes you. In a way, I do understand why she is feeling the way she does. That's why I will do my best to avoid bathrooms until I'm post-op. On the other hand, it puts legit transexuals in an uncomfortable area and there should be understanding about the struggles many of us feel. It warrants a conversation by both sides, not blaming or taking a side.
Quote from: jussmoi4nao on February 19, 2014, 12:08:54 PM
I honestly don't even think about swearing. If the moderators don't approve, I'm sure they can edit that part out. But honestly it's just a word.
Regardless, I don't need to lend credibility to my argument. I didn't say anything wrong.
The funny thing is how passive aggressive (or just aggressive) people on this board get if you say word 1 about anything that brings up something you don't wana face.
And I know I'm sounding like a jerk and I'm sorry about that or if I'm upsetting anyone.
See, though, the people who run the site DO.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,159177.msg1362916.html#new
Beautifully put kinz
Quote from: kinz on February 19, 2014, 12:00:30 PM
this is hurtful, insulting, and offensive. to me, at the very least. everywhere else in the world, outside of the safe spaces that people try to build for trans people (and like all attempts at creating safety, trans safe spaces aren't perfect, no, but i think the people in charge of them do their best, which is all i think anyone can ask for), those are places where trans people (especially trans women) are thrown under the bus to make cis people feel better.
it doesn't matter whether the experiences that this woman shared are true or false. if they're true—which i have no reason to disbelieve—they're valid, which is fine. it's unfortunate and terrible that she would have her personal boundaries assaulted. but it is not incumbent upon a trans safe space to explain its existence to her, and it is not up to her to question the validity of trans women. she asks,
and that's an attack on the legitimacy of my existence. i mean, my experiences with cis women—ostensibly in feminist spaces—have frequently been no different! i've had invasive questions about my body, suffered emotional blackmail and abuse within relationships that centred around my transness, to the point where my expectations for cis women have been that they will disregard my personal space and my rights to privacy. but i don't say "why are all these cis people i have met all about sex" in my attempts at coalition-building with cis people, because that isn't the point. on the other hand, to walk into a safe space for trans people and say that trans women have hurt you doesn't feel like an attempt at coalition-building or outreach to me. it doesn't mean that what she's said isn't true, but i don't think that means that this is the place for it.
to place the rights of trans women as somehow separate or in conflict with the rights of cis women is especially dangerous in my view, because it's that very same line of thinking that says that trans women are in some sort of inalienable way males who intend to penetrate women's spaces and dominate discourse and make all of the cis women feel unsafe. and in my experience, outside of the very small personal communities that i've established with close friends, when people talk about women's rights, trans women are rarely discussed, rarely acknowledged, and when they are it's frequently been in order to set them apart, and implicitly authorize oppression against them.
any movement for women's rights that don't include trans women with them, just like it should women of colour, just like it should disabled women, just like it should queer women, is no women's rights movement at all. it's an instrument of hostility and marginalization, and a rejection of sisterhood.
I think this is the point, If the OP intention was to find answers to question of everyday occurrence on the street. I personal don't know why people do the things they do. It just seems a misguided attempt to find answers to societies problems to bring this to a specific groups web site. on the other hand is it was an attempt to cause disharmony it succeeded .
Quote from: jussmoi4nao on February 19, 2014, 11:19:36 AM
To the people on this board, women's rights take back seat to trans* rights.
Good? Like what the hell, dude? Who else gives an eighth of a crap about trans rights other than us?
But you know what, I'll agree with one thing. The auto-denial thing is screwed up and ugly. And I don't like that any more than you do. Victims get enough unbelief and it makes me more than a little nauseated to see it here. I don't know or care whether she is lying. It doesn't mean anything to me. I took it at face value, as you are perfectly capable of seeing from my posts in that thread. As I think it should have been.
But wow, man. Like if I was sexually harassed by a black woman, and decided that the appropriate response was to go to an online black women's community, a safe space, and tell everyone "why are black women always creepy and sexual and threatening"? It might be vaguely understandable, but it's kind of screwed up.
But where the line gets crossed is when she started saying that she'd block trans women from even being in female spaces. That she'd rather see us in danger than feel uncomfortable or unsafe herself. So, I'm sorry, but my priorities are a bit different I guess. Like I'm pretty sure I care more about the trans women who are physically in serious danger in a men's space, than the cis women who are potentially uncomfortable to be around us.
But who knows, I guess because I'm 29, I'm too old and I don't understand and I've never been harassed or anything. Lolz.
Or maybe because I'm a dyke, I just can't possibly understand or anything, can't understand how impossibly creepy it is to have ANOTHER WOMAN COMING ON TO ME. Wow terrified. Cause it's not like I'm the one who actually dates other women and knows exactly how creepy and abusive and dangerous they can be.
I am so tired of this self-hating, self-destructive garbage, not just from you, but from many in our "community." I'm not a freak, I'm not a creep. I'm just a female living my life and I deserve the exact same set of rights as any cis person.
And ya, I'm a feminist. And I will fight to keep spaces for women safe to my last breath. Oddly enough that includes trans women. Because you know, women. Duh.
I don't necessarily think she was lying... but I do think it's a little rude/demanding to come into this space and demand that we justify that we're not all sexual predators.
(Because if she really wants to see how trans women behave and talk? All she had to do was read a bunch of threads and try to educate *herself.* Maybe the conclusion she would come to isn't the one we'd hoped - I think it would modify her views, but who knows what she'd take away - but in that case there was nothing to be gained for HER from asking us all to be on our best behavior, right? Better to see us "in our natural environment" and judge from that, if she *honestly* wants to know what a whole group of trans women are like.)
And as I and now others have said, cis women have been sexually assaulting, intrusive, and otherwise abusive too. It'd be unfair to judge her by those women, so guess what.
Quote from: Sarah7 on February 19, 2014, 01:50:16 PM
But who knows, I guess because I'm 29, I'm too old and I don't understand and I've never been harassed or anything. Lolz.
Wait, if your too old, then I'm too old. Oh dear! And here I thought I was not actually old!
I hope we as a community do not turn this whole TERF thing into a McCarthyistic Red Scare, where everybody is guilty until proven innocent.
This is a perfect example of why we are a support website. We exist to support each other and those who have questions as well, even if we do not agree with the questions or do not think the questions are sincere.
Consider this practice, trans folk. Do we use an unconfirmed threat from such an extreme minority we had to name them TERFs ourselves, as a reason to turn against each other? This TERF threat really bothers me because it seems only the trans community and male-genital-phobic-dingbats empower them. There will always be a handful of feminists that think any penis is a bad penis, and in the grand scheme of things they are so anti-penis, they will look whackadoodle to most anybody else, not just the trans community.
Let us not fear the Boogey Man so much we start attacking each other. Whenever I hear or see the acronym TERF I only hear one name associated with it. She is not doing anything to us that we can't do more effectively against each other. Especially when we are convinced we should be on a witch hunt.
The idea of TERFs being everywhere and out to get us is fantastical. I suggest we rise above it and focus on the established issues our community has to face rather than one woman and her invisible army.
Quote from: jussmoi4nao on February 19, 2014, 11:42:36 AM
I am NOT a cultist. I was born differently, thats all. I don't need this stupid community giving me and others like me a bad name we never earned for the sake of being PC and not hurting people cuz it's hurting ME and others like me and I'm sick of it.
I completely agree with you. Last year I went to a trans conference type thing and I was appalled by the behavior I seen! It scares me to think what cis people think about us. I saw cross dressers go into women's restrooms and stand up to pee like they were in a men's restroom. There is no way that should happen and that was just the tip of the iceberg. It's stuff like that makes it harder on people like me who this is not a hobby I really am a woman and live as one. I'll freely admit I don't like just being lumped in with people to whom this is a sexual fetish. Now if that's your thing that's fine but just don't say your like me because your not. I know what I say isn't popular but it's the truth and I'm just trying to live my life the best I can and be took seriously which will be impossible as long as we are all lumped together the way we are.
Who put you in charge of who gets to call themselves trans and how they should be going to the bathroom?
If people that don't conform to a gender binary bother you, I think it should be kept to yourself. At least on here.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on February 19, 2014, 02:22:52 PM
Who put you in charge of who gets to call themselves trans and how they should be going to the bathroom?
Well women don't stand up to pee! And women close they're legs when they sit down in a dress. But I'm not trans I'm a woman and I'm a woman who doesn't like having to see pee all over a toilet seat and on the floor when she is in a women's restroom. ;)
Oh is that what women do? Thanks for the info, I'll be sure to file that where it belongs. [/sarcasm]
Jeez, if people with vaginas don't pee all over the seat and floor, somebody REALLY needs to tell that to all the cis women I share bathrooms with. ;) Yeah, they aren't standing, but you're darned lucky if you've never encountered the "hoverers."
(There's this one person at work... ugh.)
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on February 19, 2014, 02:29:06 PM
Oh is that what women do? Thanks for the info, I'll be sure to file that where it belongs.
I'm sorry but as a woman I don't won't men in a women's restroom. And if they do go in there could at least sit down to pee instead of peeing all over the place like a neanderthal.