Just curious from reading another thread the question came up so I snatched it because its a slow day and I run out of ideas. do you think the trans community itself and society at large gives a different value to the ones who can go unnoticed through life compared to the ones who can't . Do you think the trans community is hurting it self by the different value to individuals who are able to "pass" better. Does society judge one transgender better than the other or are we just all lumped together. If this is a problem how can we deal with it better. Any body who can travel without being noticed other than how beautiful they look want to share an opinion.
I'm certainly no model but I pass 100 percent of the time or pass well enough that I don't get stared at and men always smile and say hi to me, but yes I do think society at large differentiates between trans women who pass and are feminine looking and acting, aka the pretty ones and ones who don't pass. A lot of that has to do with going unnoticed but even if someone who passed well was placed next to someone who did not pass at all, a lot of people would say something along the lines of "Well the pretty one should have transitioned, but the other one, not so much." Or something like that. IMO, I could be wrong.
Society judges people by every possible factor. It's the nature of the beast. There's a reason they call it 'the rat race'. Whether you pass, whether you don't, whether you're wearing the right thing, or not, whether you can dance the grim fandango or have two left feet. Society, as an entity, likes to compare and contrast.
If you're asking whether there's such a thing as "passing privilege" (=someone who is taken for cis is treated differently and often better), I think the answer is yes.
However, I DO think there's a distinction between "taken for cis" and pretty. :) I've been 100% mistaken for cis since about six months on HRT - I even had people argue with me when I say I'm trans - but I'm not pretty. I'm fairly ordinary looking, really. The thing is, the majority of cis women aren't super pretty either, so the best way to blend in might be to look ordinary...
Trick question....
Passing implies others not knowing. But if they did know, I think their feelings would be no different.
Quote from: Sephirah on February 23, 2014, 01:54:03 PM
Society judges people by every possible factor. It's the nature of the beast. There's a reason they call it 'the rat race'. Whether you pass, whether you don't, whether you're wearing the right thing, or not, whether you can dance the grim fandango or have two left feet. Society, as an entity, likes to compare and contrast.
That is a good point. The only way anyone, cis, trans, whatever could get away from being judged by anyone is to go live out in the woods with the animals. If you live anywhere, you are going to come across people that judge you for whatever reason they can think of. That's just the way it goes.
So yeah, my avatar is a picture of me before HRT (I use it because all my other pictures are public and can be reverse image-searched, and for the sake of my vanity since I'm an older lady now!). I was often mistaken for a lesbian in queer contexts even when I had a short, male hairstyle. So I pass pretty readily, and have lived my life as a woman considered to be of above-average attractiveness.
I've had a lot of experiences with cis people that have pissed me off related to this. I actually have a cousin who's trans, but is more marginalized by my own family because she's not considered to be "beautiful." When I stayed with my best friend in California her roommate expressed discomfort about having a transwoman stay at their apartment, but said after she met me that I was fine because she expected me to look like a man and I didn't. An ex-boyfriend told me the story of how he was once "fooled" by a transsexual, and when I objected to his use of the word "fooled" and how I wouldn't like it if he talked about me that way (he knew I was trans before we met), he said, "I wouldn't say that about you because to me you're just a woman."
And in all those cases I've tried to communicate that it's a big problem that non-passing transwomen are being categorized as "not women" when we're all "another type of woman," whether we pass or not. It's like being a Muslim woman or a woman from Germany or what have you. Being a transwoman is being a particular type of woman, and we all share that experience whether other people can tell or not. That's what I try to communicate. And I respect certain people's right to say they don't want to belong to the trans fold, just as many women who are born within a particular community end up choosing not to identify with that community as an adult, but I personally would be uncomfortable just disappearing among the crowd of cis women and not identifying myself as trans.
But I also know that I have a lot of work to do in terms of getting over my own transphobia and socializing widely in my own community. I derive self-esteem from being attractive, and I know that triggers feelings of insecurity in other people but it's hard for me as an insecure human being (like many others) to control this behavior. Plus I've also experienced the phenomenon of people befriending me because they think it makes them look good to be associated with a passable transwoman, which has been another source of annoyance. But part of my reason for joining this forum is to hopefully work through those issues.
And finally, yes, attractive people get advantages in this world, but can also be shunned because they trigger other people's insecurities. But it doesn't mean we need to settle for that and we can't ourselves fight our own prejudices, especially when we all belong to the same community.
Fact is that people who pass have privileges that people who don't pass do not have. People who don't have privileges that others have always want to know what it's like. This creates an air of mystery and awe around those who pass or are stealth about their past.
That being said, not everyone cares about passing. Some of the happiest trans women I know don't pass (and are quite beautiful).
And being stealth can be very stressful. The fear of being caught can be crushing.
I think this condition is inevitable as long as passing carries privileges. I don't see any way out of that. People are wired to gender others (procreation of the species pretty much depends on it) so it is a very, very, very hard mental pattern to break.
However, we must do a better job of educating people of the process we go through, so that people are at least AWARE of the privileges they are giving passing people. Most people CAN be educated, but we're so fixated on the few that hate, that we as a community have given up trying. Instead we're outsourcing the job to authors like Janet Mock, and actresses like Laverne Cox, forgetting that Mock's job is to sell books and Cox's job is to act.
I dont think not passing is an issue,,,but what society thinks about it is one...
There are all these missconceptions about trans people only because nobody cares to educate society about this subject...
The other day my friend told me that, before he knew im trans and before Ive said to him all things I knew about it , he thought trans people where gay people who just wanted to have sex easier with the same sex...go figure
So if I wasnt able to pass and people would accept me as a woman knowing what it means to be trans , I would be happy really...
but when I know that most people think about this as my friend used to or even worse things,,,then one of my goals cant be achieved ...
Its wierd but I think that everything would be better if teachers at schools wouldnt only speak about homosexuality but also about transexualism...
Quote from: mandonlym on February 23, 2014, 03:08:16 PM
When I stayed with my best friend in California her roommate expressed discomfort about having a transwoman stay at their apartment, but said after she met me that I was fine because she expected me to look like a man and I didn't. An ex-boyfriend told me the story of how he was once "fooled" by a transsexual, and when I objected to his use of the word "fooled" and how I wouldn't like it if he talked about me that way (he knew I was trans before we met), he said, "I wouldn't say that about you because to me you're just a woman."
Yup,the same stuff has happened to me. "I expected you to look like, er, you know." "A man?" "Well, yeah, but you're just normal unlike those other people."
Ugh.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 23, 2014, 05:42:06 PM
Yup,the same stuff has happened to me. "I expected you to look like, er, you know." "A man?" "Well, yeah, but you're just normal unlike those other people."
Ugh.
Don't know why this makes me SO angry but it does. I guess it's easier to confront other people's transphobia than my own.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 23, 2014, 01:46:45 PM
I'm certainly no model but I pass 100 percent of the time or pass well enough that I don't get stared at and men always smile and say hi to me, but yes I do think society at large differentiates between trans women who pass and are feminine looking and acting, aka the pretty ones and ones who don't pass. A lot of that has to do with going unnoticed but even if someone who passed well was placed next to someone who did not pass at all, a lot of people would say something along the lines of "Well the pretty one should have transitioned, but the other one, not so much." Or something like that. IMO, I could be wrong.
isn't this kind of what wrong with the gate keepers. Who determines who can go forward . Like with a job who gets promoted and who doesn't.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 23, 2014, 06:22:09 PM
isn't this kind of what wrong with the gate keepers. Who determines who can go forward . Like with a job who gets promoted and who doesn't.
This was something I expressed to my therapist, who approved me for surgery after two appointments. His letter stated, apart from me being of sound mind and, etc., that his recommendation was based in part on the fact that people perceived me as female already and that I was already successfully socializing and dating as a woman. IMO that's society's problem for people who aren't in that position and it shouldn't be a factor in surgery approval decisions, as long as the transwoman in question can handle those kinds of judgments. Tricky territory, I know, but we need the right to self-determination.
yea, totally agree with self determination
Quote from: stephaniec on February 23, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
Just curious from reading another thread the question came up so I snatched it because its a slow day and I run out of ideas. do you think the trans community itself and society at large gives a different value to the ones who can go unnoticed through life compared to the ones who can't . Do you think the trans community is hurting it self by the different value to individuals who are able to "pass" better. Does society judge one transgender better than the other or are we just all lumped together. If this is a problem how can we deal with it better. Any body who can travel without being noticed other than how beautiful they look want to share an opinion.
Absolutely yes! and it does not stops at "passing" either; it goes like this; fem voice a plus, good looking a plus, white a plus, young a plus; so, fem voice, white, young, and cute... you won the lottery
Is this ^^ right? NO! but it is why it is, and it is our challenge to change that. How do we do that? Well, I think that one way is living a life that is true to our beliefs
I once met a middle age Latin American person who was born in a male body. Through hard work this person achieved professorship at a very outstanding university in Bogota, Colombia. This person is a wonderfully witty and smart woman, with a deep voice, with an outstanding personality. Like many professional women she choses her own fashion style, and lives her life at the beat of her own drum.
She and other ladies like her, some in this forum, have been a model for me. I pass and pass very well but I have bass voice that betrays my biology every time. Still that does not stops me or concern me, I live my life like any other women... and so I am hoping that every encounter with a stranger would result into an ally or at least in one more tolerant human...
Those who pass dont get lumped into the trans community period. Its only the ones that do not pass get lumped.Society gets a disordered view because of this because it only reconizes the trans community who dont pass versus the ones that do.
Peky if it helps I slept with a musician who has perfect pitch just a couple of weeks ago who mentioned I had an unusually low voice (I'm a natural baritone) but didn't betray any hint of suspicion. So a low voice isn't necessarily betraying. In my experience, as soon as you show self-consciousness about something that's when you're most likely to be read.
Quote from: izzy on February 23, 2014, 06:59:26 PM
Those who pass dont get lumped into the trans community period. Its only the ones that do not pass get lumped.Society gets a disordered view because of this because it only reconizes the trans community who dont pass versus the ones that do.
That's why it's important for us who pass to come out and not just to sell books or self-promote. It's important for us to be seen and heard and recognize ourselves as part of the trans community, so that others can do the same.
"Passing" is a HUGE advantage!
When I transitioned (almost 40 years ago) being passable was a requirement for SRS. I was young, skinny, with a reasonable figure, and was pretty. I had also lived part time en femme for years so was "well integrated". After transition I faced exactly the same problems all you women faced (discrimination).
Ten or so years after transition, my stealth was blown. I lost quite a few casual 'friends' but I found that, because I "passed" well, after a time everyone seemed to forget that I wasn't born female.
I think people as more easily comfortable with "apparent sameness" and obvious difference makes people uncomfortable.
As for "the community" it may be just my perception but it seemed that a long time ago when "going stealth" was standard, the general public seemed more understanding, maybe BECAUSE post-ops integrated and disappeared - they were indistinguishable from cis people.
Quote from: mandonlym on February 23, 2014, 07:01:00 PM
Peky if it helps I slept with a musician who has perfect pitch just a couple of weeks ago who mentioned I had an unusually low voice (I'm a natural baritone) but didn't betray any hint of suspicion. So a low voice isn't necessarily betraying. In my experience, as soon as you show self-consciousness about something that's when you're most likely to be read.
than you for noticing me... you feedback and advice is greatly appreciated
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 23, 2014, 07:12:52 PM
As for "the community" it may be just my perception but it seemed that a long time ago when "going stealth" was standard, the general public seemed more understanding, maybe BECAUSE post-ops integrated and disappeared - they were indistinguishable from cis people.
Basically as long as we don't make noise and look and behave like everyone else we're fine. That's not good enough, especially for people who don't pass.
I've had people who know I'm trans ask me about periods and wanting to have kids and pregnancy a number of times. It's kind of hilarious and sad at the same time, since I never expected to want to have kids, but now imagine how a couple of people I've dated would have made really cute babies with me. :)
Quote from: mandonlym on February 23, 2014, 07:02:31 PM
That's why it's important for us who pass to come out and not just to sell books or self-promote. It's important for us to be seen and heard and recognize ourselves as part of the trans community, so that others can do the same.
Exactly to break the myth society has.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 23, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
Just curious from reading another thread the question came up so I snatched it because its a slow day and I run out of ideas. do you think the trans community itself and society at large gives a different value to the ones who can go unnoticed through life compared to the ones who can't ?
Yes...
Quote from: stephaniec on February 23, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
Do you think the trans community is hurting it self by the different value to individuals who are able to "pass" better?
Yes...
Quote from: stephaniec on February 23, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
Does society judge one transgender better than the other ? or are we just all lumped together? If this is a problem how can we deal with it better?
Yes...No...Through education...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: mandonlym on February 23, 2014, 07:02:31 PM
That's why it's important for us who pass to come out and not just to sell books or self-promote. It's important for us to be seen and heard and recognize ourselves as part of the trans community, so that others can do the same.
I totally disagree with this. Blending in, being seen as just another woman gave me great relief from my dysphoria. I am not young. I am not pretty. Nonetheless I have worked very, very hard at becoming an ordinary woman and I have succeeded. I never get misgendered nor do I have trouble in female spaces like toilets. I finally feel right.
And you want me to give it up. To out myself in the pursuit of an idea that might or might not have effect. You want me to voluntarily subject myself back to dysphoria.
No!
By all means out yourself, but to demand it of others is unfair and unreasonable. The whole point of transition was to relieve my dysphoria and that has worked.
I have been accused of trans-elitism because of this, because I keep my trans life separate from the rest of my life yet I do it this way because it is the only way I can reconcile the desire to help transwomen with my need to blend in to every day life. So every few weeks I attend support groups and help out there. I take newly transitioning women out in public to trans friendly places. I give them advice on clothing, makeup, deportment and voice but that is as far as my interaction with the trans community goes. I will never be a spokesperson for the community because such a public event would undo all that I have achieved.
I do not even regard myself as stealth. I am not hiding from those who knew me pre-transition. I just want to be unnoticed and unremarkable. I live where I have lived for decades. All my neighbours know who I was so I am not exactly hiding but because I now live as an ordinary woman, that is how I get treated and it is the thing that makes my life liveable and worthwhile.
I did receive support from local groups early in my transition but I have repaid that with interest and the women I helped are now helping other new women as they come through the system. I can now step back somewhat because I have trained my replacements and I am now starting to reduce my involvement with the trans community.
You start out doing trans "things" but after a while you end up just dong "things". Surely this is the whole point. To embrace an ordinary life. To move on.
Transition is a process, not an objective. If it becomes a lifestyle then all you are doing is moving to a bigger closet.
Hmmm... well this is a pickle isn't it? I pass 100% of the time. Hell, I skate in clothing so tight that there is *nothing* left to the imagination and still, at least three or four times a year, I have the conversation where someone I've known for years had no freaking clue. It's a thing.
Do we put too much emphasis on it? I don't know. From the perspective of someone who can have the conversation and then go right back to having that person treat me like they always have, I can say that it's a salve for my nerves like no other to just be seen as 'one of the girls' without distraction. I have no idea what a world where non-passable MtF's fully integrated in society would be like. I myself find a non-passing MtF kinda disquieting, despite me knowing exactly what the deal is and having no actual bias against them. There's just an 'otherness' quality about them which can and does disrupt the flow of an all-female space. It's... hard to deal with somehow.
Does the trans community put too much emphasis on passable trans women? Mayhaps. I think that there's a cause and effect here that we haven't talked about much. Do passable MtFs (and FtMs for that matter) rise in our political organizations because they're passable or does their passability and thus, increased confidence in society at large give them advantages in confidence and self-worth which translate to better success? Really, it's a damned hard question to answer and a passable person like myself probably doesn't have anything valuable to say in the conversation other than experiences, thoughts, and observations. Conclusions, I will leave to those who don't have an entrenched privilege that clouds their judgement.
I will say this, however. I was having a conversation with my bestie (a GG) today about the privilege of being pretty, white, and young. We both acknowledged that it screws peeps who aren't gifted by the gods to happen to be what society deems valuable in a woman at the current point in time. Her comment, however, really caught me off guard: "Yeah, I wouldn't turn it down. I mean, really, would you change it for anything?"
No. I wouldn't. It sucks, but that's what it is. Privilege. Pure and simple. Society will always privilege some above others. As Seriph said earlier, that's the nature of humanity. I can point out how awesome non-passable trans women can be by pointing to paragons of awesomeness but in the same way that large-bodied GGs can be outstanding in all other aspects of their life, general attractiveness can and will be a factor in their lives. We're changing, very, very slowly as a society but I have no idea how long it will be before there will be a absence of a category that no one would trade out of for anything.
Quote from: provizora on February 23, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
By all means out yourself, but to demand it of others is unfair and unreasonable. The whole point of transition was to relieve my dysphoria and that has worked.
I'm not demanding anything from anyone. I'm expressing an opinion.
To me, there are two things that are clearly the case:
1. It's harder at a personal level to be out than to be stealth.
2. The more out people exist, the easier it is for society as a whole to understand and accept trans people.
So I'm not saying everyone should come out. I've said elsewhere that I respect people's right to not do so. But I don't think it somehow denigrates stealth women to say that being out helps other trans women, because it clearly does. And much like you, I live my life with people aware that I'm trans and by and large, I don't see them thinking of me as not a woman because of it.
Quote from: mandonlym on February 24, 2014, 02:58:47 PM
I'm not demanding anything from anyone. I'm expressing an opinion.
To me, there are two things that are clearly the case:
1. It's harder at a personal level to be out than to be stealth.
2. The more out people exist, the easier it is for society as a whole to understand and accept trans people.
So I'm not saying everyone should come out. I've said elsewhere that I respect people's right to not do so. But I don't think it somehow denigrates stealth women to say that being out helps other trans women, because it clearly does. And much like you, I live my life with people aware that I'm trans and by and large, I don't see them thinking of me as not a woman because of it.
the sad truth is that right or wrong or neither when the eye pleasers go invisible the community is force to bare the full weight of misunderstanding and misconception. I can't say any thing about a persons personal free choice , but the effects of that choice are not invisible
Quote from: stephaniec on February 24, 2014, 03:24:21 PM
the sad truth is that right or wrong or neither when the eye pleasers go invisible the community is force to bare the full weight of misunderstanding and misconception. I can't say any thing about a persons personal free choice , but the effects of that choice are not invisible
So if much of society considers non-passable Trans people to be "other", unlike themselves, what good does it do for a passable Trans to make their past known? They simply get reclassified from "one of us" to "one of them". Zero net benefit.
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 24, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
So if much of society considers non-passable Trans people to be "other", unlike themselves, what good does it do for a passable Trans to make their past known? They simply get reclassified from "one of us" to "one of them". Zero net benefit.
There are an incredible number of benefits to other transwomen to have transwomen who pass be out, not the least of which is that we're able to defend transwomen who don't pass rather than keep quiet for fear that we would be outed.
Also, defying those expectations is precisely what makes it hard for people to classify and turn the dynamic into us vs. them. I know from experience that people who are close to me have become much stronger trans allies since I transitioned, and many of those people wouldn't have developed that awareness without me being out and able to talk to them about various issues and questions that come up in relation to trans identity.
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 24, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
So if much of society considers non-passable Trans people to be "other", unlike themselves, what good does it do for a passable Trans to make their past known? They simply get reclassified from "one of us" to "one of them". Zero net benefit.
that's true ,but that's assuming a negative reclassification
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 24, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
So if much of society considers non-passable Trans people to be "other", unlike themselves, what good does it do for a passable Trans to make their past known? They simply get reclassified from "one of us" to "one of them". Zero net benefit.
Actually, I'll reiterate what I said earlier. The simple genetic advantage of being passable under any circumstances is that, unless you're dealing with a whack-job, it becomes a part of your back-story but doesn't reclassify you. It's unfair but it's the truth. I'm seen by my friends as a woman, not a trans chick. This is whether they know my history or not.
In short, my dear, you're wrong.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on February 24, 2014, 04:10:21 PM
Actually, I'll reiterate what I said earlier. The simple genetic advantage of being passable under any circumstances is that, unless you're dealing with a whack-job, it becomes a part of your back-story but doesn't reclassify you. It's unfair but it's the truth. I'm seen by my friends as a woman, not a trans chick. This is whether they know my history or not.
In short, my dear, you're wrong.
So how does that benefit 'the rest of the community'?
Quote from: mandonlym on February 23, 2014, 07:02:31 PM
That's why it's important for us who pass to come out and not just to sell books or self-promote. It's important for us to be seen and heard and recognize ourselves as part of the trans community, so that others can do the same.
Maybe in a perfect world...
Quote from: mandonlym on February 24, 2014, 02:58:47 PM
I'm not demanding anything from anyone. I'm expressing an opinion.
To me, there are two things that are clearly the case:
1. It's harder at a personal level to be out than to be stealth.
2. The more out people exist, the easier it is for society as a whole to understand and accept trans people.
If we could all just close our eyes, wish, and dream. Unfortunately the real world does not work that way. Maybe 50 years in the future... perhaps.
People do lose jobs simply for being trans, people will not get a second interview for being gay, some get looked over for a promotion simply due to a rumor of being a lesbian. This stuff happens everyday. It's hard enough to find and keep a job in today's economic environment, let alone bringing your gender identity and/or sexual preferences in the mix.
And as someone mentioned earlier... even if you pass, are young, have a perfectly cis-female sounding voice, are white and educated... guess what, you can still be discriminated against. The ignorance of discrimination knows no bounds... be they related to color, age, creed, sexual preference or gender identity.
So if you choose to, and can economically function and support yourself as being out and proud... go for it. I applaud you. But beware the possible pitfalls. Me... I'm sticking to passing, blending in, mouth shut and paying my bills for the time I have left... and simply trying to enjoy every minute of my life. Life has been hard enough... and not many employers are looking for the word "transgender" on a resume or during an interview. Especially when compared to a young, white, good looking, cis-female... yep, better chance there. Sad, but true.
Quote from: mandonlym on February 23, 2014, 07:02:31 PM
That's why it's important for us who pass to come out and not just to sell books or self-promote. It's important for us to be seen and heard and recognize ourselves as part of the trans community, so that others can do the same.
Quote from: provizora on February 23, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
I totally disagree with this. Blending in, being seen as just another woman gave me great relief from my dysphoria. I am not young. I am not pretty. Nonetheless I have worked very, very hard at becoming an ordinary woman and I have succeeded. I never get misgendered nor do I have trouble in female spaces like toilets. I finally feel right.
And you want me to give it up. To out myself in the pursuit of an idea that might or might not have effect. You want me to voluntarily subject myself back to dysphoria. No!
By all means out yourself, but to demand it of others is unfair and unreasonable. The whole point of transition was to relieve my dysphoria and that has worked.
I do not even regard myself as stealth. I am not hiding from those who knew me pre-transition. I just want to be unnoticed and unremarkable. I live where I have lived for decades. All my neighbours know who I was so I am not exactly hiding but because I now live as an ordinary woman, that is how I get treated and it is the thing that makes my life liveable and worthwhile.
You start out doing trans "things" but after a while you end up just dong "things". Surely this is the whole point. To embrace an ordinary life. To move on.
Transition is a process, not an objective. If it becomes a lifestyle then all you are doing is moving to a bigger closet.
I know I'm part of the trans community, but as far as I know I pass 100% of the time, and there's no way I'm going to out myself either. I know we get more privileges by passing, but I waited decades before I finally ran out of options and now live in the gender I've always felt right in and really belonged. I'll be sixty in August and I'm too injured and too sick to give up being to others what I've known since my earliest memory I am inside, female. I know we, as transgendered are all women, but I'm talking about the public's perception of us IF they know. Once in awhile when I read some posts I feel like I should have survivor's guilt for passing. I feel so bad for the transwomen who don't pass, but for someone to try to make those of us who pass feel guilty for living stealth is pretty angering. Why in the world would I tell anyone who doesn't know I'm trans when all I've ever wanted in my life was to be a woman? I also recently read on another thread a TS saying only about 5% of us pass all the time, but I think the percentages are much higher, though I can't even guesstimate what those percentages are. But I think those kinds of posts are both wrong and upsetting to women who may pass but who don't have much confidence yet that they do. I can practically see a new girl read "Only 5% of us pass," then ask herself, "Am I one of the 5 or the 95%?" And I think that's wrong to put doubt into anyone's mind. A woman who's transitioned will have a whole population decide whether she's passable or not, but it shouldn't be here unless she asks if she does!
Hey it's also frustrating for people to imply that trans activism has no actual effect in the world, even as people who have direct experience with said activism has seen its effects.
I take responsibility for how other people's words make me feel. No group of people can ever agree with each other completely, so some opinions that will read will bother you. Just as you're expressing an opinion I disagree with, I think it's important for you to know that me advocating for a more visible trans presence is not primarily designed to make you feel guilty, but rather to make people aware of the larger effects of their actions.
And yes, I agree that there's probably a generational factor here, and I can see it being easier for older women who are not subject to as much scrutiny to pass. It's just one of those social realities that younger women get more attention, so their gender can become more subject to scrutiny.
I think there is also another factor to consider, a factor I noticed years ago when my stealth was blown.
When someone is 'fully integrated' in voice, mannerisms, carriage, disposition, etc., they are viewed differently (by John Q Public) than those who clearly don't pass. It is like they (the public) have a much easier time accepting the passable TS as being their chosen gender than those who don't obviously fit.
When my stealth was compromised (many years ago) some people were in disbelief and some were only momentarily flustered and then went back to treating me as cis and they keep forgetting that I wasn't born cis - even my doctor keeps forgetting.
I'm sorry if this is going to ruffle some feathers, but the big problem with being transgender is that people don't come out in the open. That status quo of the transgender will never change. Society only sees that ones that don't fit the perfect idea of beauty as deemed by the Donald Trump's Absolutely no stigma attached to being transgender will ever change with that attitude of passing acceptability. I'm just starting my transition and I'm pre op. I don't know how far my journey will go I can only speak for my self. the more the transgender community stays in the dark the more it will forever stay in the dark and be looked at as food for the Jerry Springer's of the world. Sorry there will always be discrimination on the job as long as this condition persists. Sorry.
I think it might help the trans community if more of us come out, rather than going stealth. The pretty ones will often be more accepted. The less passable ones will generally having a harder time being accepted. But, there are many exceptions. It depends on the individual. If she isn't exactly passable but has confidence and an amazing personality, many people will treat her with respect, admiration, and friendship. If she is beautiful and constantly worries about passing, that self-conscious quality might override other good qualities. Nobody likes a beautiful psychotic bitch. If you're a lovely woman and you tell a new friend that you were born with male genitals, she might view you as a lovely likable girl with an unusual past, or she might view you as the 'other', a freak. It can go either way. In the world of trans it is probably a mistake to be worried about everyone's opinion. It might be healthiest to see yourself as an individualist with good qualities, even if you do have big shoulders or something. There's something beautiful about honesty.
Call it passing. Call it acceptance. Whatever .....
Once you have it you do not willingly give it up. It is all very well saying that those of us who have worked very hard at fitting in should throw it away for those who either do not blend in or do not care about it.
Like everyone else I have been through the "stick out like a sore thumb" stage which then progressed to the "looking a bit strange" stage on my way to where I am now. I did not get to where I am now by luck. I have worked hard at it, observing women and how they move, talk and interact. I join in when I can and let myself be guided by other women. It has been hard but the result is worth it.
I am comfortable for the first time in my life. I am not going to give that up by outing myself.
After 50 years I finally have some peace, some inner harmony and it has only been for a year or two. Is that it? Is that what "the community" has decided I am allowed? And now it is back to uncertainty and misery for me for the good of all?
Sorry. It is not going to happen.
Quote from: provizora on February 25, 2014, 06:20:35 PMOnce you have it you do not willingly give it up.
That's the truth!
Though I was only 24, life before that had kept me on the verge of suicide for years. I was a freak before transition. When SRS suddenly became available, life was great! I fit in, I could be myself, and I could live a normal life. By the time my past became the subject of gossip, I had 10 good years, years that reassured me who and what I am - that made it less traumatic loosing stealth. Would I have stayed "out" when I transitioned, NO WAY!
I get that it's harder for people to be out who feel like passing for them is hard-won. I didn't have a lot of that experience so it's hard for me to walk in those shoes. It's awful what so many people here have had to go through, and it sucks that the world has to be what it is. Things are getting better though, slowly but surely.
Quote from: mandonlym on February 25, 2014, 07:20:35 PM
I get that it's harder for people to be out who feel like passing for them is hard-won. I didn't have a lot of that experience so it's hard for me to walk in those shoes. It's awful what so many people here have had to go through, and it sucks that the world has to be what it is. Things are getting better though, slowly but surely.
so if you don't mind me asking because I'm pretty new to this being a transitioning transgender. What things are causing it to be better.
Quote from: stephaniec on February 25, 2014, 07:29:21 PM
so if you don't mind me asking because I'm pretty new to this being a transitioning transgender. What things are causing it to be better.
Well, there's a lot more visibility around trans issues over the last few years, with more people coming out like Chaz Bono and Lana Wachowski. There are more protections for trans people in various states. The legalization of gay marriage in various states indirectly affects trans people who try to marry but are classified as their birth genders. These are all good signs.
Quote from: mandonlym on February 25, 2014, 09:32:02 PM
Well, there's a lot more visibility around trans issues over the last few years, with more people coming out like Chaz Bono and Lana Wachowski. There are more protections for trans people in various states. The legalization of gay marriage in various states indirectly affects trans people who try to marry but are classified as their birth genders. These are all good signs.
thanks for the info
Just an FYI, a looooot of 'passable' chicks are completely and totally 'out' (yours truly included). I think that it's possible that this, with intensified media coverage of trans issues is making those who couldn't pass a clocking if they went through the whole-nine-yards at least a little more accepted by society. Whether they'll ever get past the 'othering' stigma, I have no idea.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on February 25, 2014, 10:07:09 PM
Just an FYI, a looooot of 'passable' chicks are completely and totally 'out' (yours truly included). I think that it's possible that this, with intensified media coverage of trans issues is making those who couldn't pass a clocking if they went through the whole-nine-yards at least a little more accepted by society. Whether they'll ever get past the 'othering' stigma, I have no idea.
well it makes sense that it would help quite a bit.
Sorry, I don't believe in the mystical "they" that we look over our shoulders for who judges whether we are female enough or man enough or pretty enough or too fat or two short really exists except in our imaginations. There are plenty examples of the just right people who crash and burn in this world. In their minds they are not the pretty people we see. There are also plenty of the not right kind of people who are happy and successful. Take Danny Divito for instance. Then there are those of us who are somewhere in the middle with no apparent features that make us unappealing who have a hard time getting anywhere, and their are some who are moderately to very successful.
Since 2006 I have been stuck with or blessed with or cursed with having to spend hours of my life on public transportation as it shakes, rattles, and rolls through the city. Nothing in particular wrong with public transportation, except that outings by car that may take 20 minutes out of your life now take an hour. Hour journeys now take two or three hours out of my life.
Public transportation and walking takes you into a world of people you simply miss when you drive. Now I have had many differing experiences on the bus, both disguised as a male when I was still working and now as my fair looking female self.
Having been a rural school teacher, I have been trained to be very watchful and aware of the people around me. You loose contact with your surroundings and others around you as an elementary school teacher and when you come to, the world around you can be full of many extraordinary surprises. And besides it is extremely frowned upon to loose track of any of your students that you were supposed to be caged up with during the school day.
Much is to say, when I ride the bus, I am aware of the people around me, and trying to tune into any unpleasant vibrations coming my way. As a teacher you have to know when to duck. I find that a good many of the other passengers on the bus are just doing their best to tune out the world around them. Some are friendly and talkative with people they know and some with strangers.
In my mind I try to envision many of them as children that I might have taught in school.
Some people see you and some people don't. And because the urban area I live in has many small town people like me, they are very helpful when they discover a newbie has just come to town and wound up on the totally wrong bus going where they know not.
The news if full of drive by and police shootings, robberies, and young girls trapped in slave sex rings in the city. Many times there are on the bus convicts on work release programs either going to work or returning to confinement. This is a southeastern southern city and you see many interracial couples, and me being a rural hick from the Dakotas with a head full of stereo typical ideas about the South, and this is an urban area that gets the transplants from the neighboring rural southern states, I am looking for reactions of distain or disapproval, from the other passengers around me. I see no reactions, no glares, why I ask myself.
And as this 67 year old transgender grandma, who passes at a glance, but an instant later, does not, I do not feel those angry disapproving stares at me. I wait for the growl of some bellicose male, and God knows there are plenty of those on on the bus also. But the angry voices never come.
Where is the judgement of the "they." This transgender grandma goes to her son's (yes at 67 I have a ten year old son (my male parts doing!)) and I wait for the disapproval of the "they". It's not there. My significant other constantly calls me Michael. Even after I am called ma'am and the disapproval of the "they" is not there.
Yes, I get ignored and I really don't have any personal friends, (Lots of people in my life just acquaintances , most close friends from my past on Facebook). From the police, I get your life style your choice. Lots of indifference, but no threats from the "they".
The "they" in my life is surprisingly silent in the real world. The "they" only whispers to me from inside my head. Could it be that the "they" everyone is concerned about on this message board is just mythical, and it is the we that keeps "they" alive.
Yes I know there are transgender people in the world whose lives have been taken by an unforgiving and intolerant world. Their lives have crossed with the truly violent people in this world. But these violent ones could attack me because I am weak, I am on the wrong turf for my ethnicity, I am targeted like any other woman is, or I am targeted because I am transgender.
I never see the guards at the gender boarder. The "they" never come for me. I watch, and I wait but the "they" never comes. What if this "they" is a myth and it is we that keep "they" alive.
The "they" is also missing in action when I use their for there and as a retired school teacher feel compelled to fix the mistake, and I struggle with the spellings rarely typed words and my spell check is working intermittently, I wait expectantly for the frowns of my long dead teachers and the ruler tapping on my wrist. Where are you, "they"!!!!!!
Quote from: michelle on February 25, 2014, 11:23:49 PM
Sorry, I don't believe in the mystical "they" that we look over our shoulders for who judges whether we are female enough or man enough or pretty enough or too fat or two short really exists except in our imaginations. There are plenty examples of the just right people who crash and burn in this world. In their minds they are not the pretty people we see. There are also plenty of the not right kind of people who are happy and successful. Take Danny Divito for instance. Then there are those of us who are somewhere in the middle with no apparent features that make us unappealing who have a hard time getting anywhere, and their are some who are moderately to very successful.
Since 2006 I have been stuck with or blessed with or cursed with having to spend hours of my life on public transportation as it shakes, rattles, and rolls through the city. Nothing in particular wrong with public transportation, except that outings by car that may take 20 minutes out of your life now take an hour. Hour journeys now take two or three hours out of my life.
Public transportation and walking takes you into a world of people you simply miss when you drive. Now I have had many differing experiences on the bus, both disguised as a male when I was still working and now as my fair looking female self.
Having been a rural school teacher, I have been trained to be very watchful and aware of the people around me. You loose contact with your surroundings and others around you as an elementary school teacher and when you come to, the world around you can be full of many extraordinary surprises. And besides it is extremely frowned upon to loose track of any of your students that you were supposed to be caged up with during the school day.
Much is to say, when I ride the bus, I am aware of the people around me, and trying to tune into any unpleasant vibrations coming my way. As a teacher you have to know when to duck. I find that a good many of the other passengers on the bus are just doing their best to tune out the world around them. Some are friendly and talkative with people they know and some with strangers.
In my mind I try to envision many of them as children that I might have taught in school.
Some people see you and some people don't. And because the urban area I live in has many small town people like me, they are very helpful when they discover a newbie has just come to town and wound up on the totally wrong bus going where they know not.
The news if full of drive by and police shootings, robberies, and young girls trapped in slave sex rings in the city. Many times there are on the bus convicts on work release programs either going to work or returning to confinement. This is a southeastern southern city and you see many interracial couples, and me being a rural hick from the Dakotas with a head full of stereo typical ideas about the South, and this is an urban area that gets the transplants from the neighboring rural southern states, I am looking for reactions of distain or disapproval, from the other passengers around me. I see no reactions, no glares, why I ask myself.
And as this 67 year old transgender grandma, who passes at a glance, but an instant later, does not, I do not feel those angry disapproving stares at me. I wait for the growl of some bellicose male, and God knows there are plenty of those on on the bus also. But the angry voices never come.
Where is the judgement of the "they." This transgender grandma goes to her son's (yes at 67 I have a ten year old son (my male parts doing!)) and I wait for the disapproval of the "they". It's not there. My significant other constantly calls me Michael. Even after I am called ma'am and the disapproval of the "they" is not there.
Yes, I get ignored and I really don't have any personal friends, (Lots of people in my life just acquaintances , most close friends from my past on Facebook). From the police, I get your life style your choice. Lots of indifference, but no threats from the "they".
The "they" in my life is surprisingly silent in the real world. The "they" only whispers to me from inside my head. Could it be that the "they" everyone is concerned about on this message board is just mythical, and it is the we that keeps "they" alive.
Yes I know there are transgender people in the world whose lives have been taken by an unforgiving and intolerant world. Their lives have crossed with the truly violent people in this world. But these violent ones could attack me because I am weak, I am on the wrong turf for my ethnicity, I am targeted like any other woman is, or I am targeted because I am transgender.
I never see the guards at the gender boarder. The "they" never come for me. I watch, and I wait but the "they" never comes. What if this "they" is a myth and it is we that keep "they" alive.
The "they" is also missing in action when I use their for there and as a retired school teacher feel compelled to fix the mistake, and I struggle with the spellings rarely typed words and my spell check is working intermittently, I wait expectantly for the frowns of my long dead teachers and the ruler tapping on my wrist. Where are you, "they"!!!!!!
thank you for your honest balanced reality check.