Hello everyone! I am from Austria, Europe and so South Korea is a little far for me. I talked to Dr. James Thomas and he mentioned that there are actually two surgeons who perform the "Wendler glottoplasty" (that seems to be the scientific term for the surgery method performed at the Yeson Voice Center) - Dr Kim in Seoul and Prof Marc Remacle in Belgium.
I contacted Prof Remacle and he confirmed that he regularly performs the same surgery method as Dr Kim. Surgery in Belgium also seems to be a little cheaper and I wouldn't have to travel that far. Dr Remacle sent me a few voice examples and they sounded equally impressive as those from the Yeson center.
Unfortunately there is not much information on Prof Remacle and his surgery method on the internet. This is what I found so far:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20171832
http://www.yourenthealth.com/marc_remacle
http://users.skynet.be/sb151826/FILES/SURGERY/VFS.html (in French)
Has anybody else here heard about him?
I've never heard of him, but this sounds interesting as I'm currently attempting to save for a trip to Yesons and Belgium is considerably closer to the UK than Seoul!!
Do you have any idea what his prices are like hun?
I got a price quote around EUR 4500, including two nights in a hospital. The hospital needs a deposit of EUR 8000 though in case there are any complications. The unused difference will be reimbursed after surgery.
Hi evenstar,
this is interesting information. Without access to the voice samples, however, it's hard to tell. There are a few surgeons in Berlin (Gross/Nawka), Stuttgart (Miethe) and Würzburg (Hagen) who also perform glottoplasties, however, the quality varies drastically. I've heard a quite impressive Hagen result, two Nawka results of very varying quality and that's about it. And that's not very much to base such a life-altering decision on.
Regards,
Amy
Yeah, it is totally annoying that there are no people from Europe speaking up and presenting voices or having threads in any forum like the ones about Yeson here. I heard two results from Germany with glottoplasty so far and one had considerable hoarseness in it, the ohter one I wrote about in another thread about not screaming. Apparently one marked difference is that at least one surgeon in Europe tries to make this procedure work without permanent sutures, so the thread should dissolve with time as the chords fuse together by the body. So far i have not heard any convincing result from anyone in Europe, but I guess if there would be more examples, it would be interesting. I was originally hoping for snyone really good operating in Germany as this would be possible for me then to get with insurance cover, but so far not.
The price is similar to yesons then, about 5000 EU. But the flight to Korea is more expensive, but then again, it is also more interesting ;) - basically you can do a vacation at the same time. Albeit one without talking :P
I'd be interested though to hear reports and voice samples from Belgium!
P.S.:
the paper says :
Quotean increase in the grade of dysphonia (Gpre=0.2, Gpost=1, P=0.013)
as I understand it, this is on a scale of 0 for no dysphonia to 3 severe dysphonia. I did not find now how bad a 1.0 is, but I assume it definitely would be noticeable. Sadly, Dr Kim does not seem to have published much to compare this to.
Dear Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on February 28, 2014, 06:54:51 PM
Apparently one marked difference is that at least one surgeon in Europe tries to make this procedure work without permanent sutures, so the thread should dissolve with time as the chords fuse together by the body.
To my knowledge, Dr. Kim is the only person using a permanent suture. Maybe that's why his system works.
Regards,
Amy
Another interesting quote from the papers:
QuoteA revision Wendler procedure was necessary for three individuals (9.7%); two of them presented a suture's line breakdown because they did not follow the postoperative recommendations for voice rest and the third one had an insufficient web due to an insufficient estimation of the necessary correction.
Wendler glottoplasty seems to be an effective technique to feminize the voice in MFTs with better results when performed in younger individuals.
Again - people not following instructions.... bad idea!
Interesting that this works better in younger people. Maybe the voice is more flexible at that age...
Interesting fact there, Amy - I was thinking that it would be a bad thing to have that permanent threads in the larynx - not the best thing to have such things there all the time and I was thinking it shoul dbe better to have them go away after some time - but maybe it is not a good idea after all. Although I think it should not change too much - the quality of the voice should not be decreased by them going away - but I would imagine that the risk of an injury may be higher if they are not there - eg screaming or such - if they can at that time still lend some support, maybe that is good - I dont know...
I just contacted Dr. Remacle and got the whole study as his response. In the next months I could not travel to Korea but Belgium would be possible. He saysall patients who followed his post op instructions are very satisfied.
As addition I will have a consultation with the docs from Charite here in Berlin.
Lara
Hi Lara,
I've been looking at Yeson too, but would prefer Belgium as it's much closer. If you can keep us updated on your progress that would be appreciated!
Alena x
One word of caution: The definition of "very satisfied" is extremely subjective. I talked to some people who were satisfied with VFS and thought that htere would have been definitely room for improvement or rather I would not be satisfied with that. Mainly the result was that there was no more misgendering happening, or only occasionally on the phone, but hoarseness or breathiness was a result - the satisfaction came from being able to live without being misgendered by the voice, but I still think that this would not be the only aim.
I also know some people who are satisfied with their GRS but who lost sensibility or vaginal depth - but as it allows them to live unquestioned in terms of genitalia and got their gender marker changed, they are satisfied as well. Or so they say.
So be careful about peoples claims of satisfaction with some procedure - get yourself a clear picture if YOU would be satisfied with what they got.
Quote from: anjaq on May 18, 2014, 08:49:17 AM
One word of caution: The definition of "very satisfied" is extremely subjective. I talked to some people who were satisfied with VFS and thought that htere would have been definitely room for improvement or rather I would not be satisfied with that. Mainly the result was that there was no more misgendering happening, or only occasionally on the phone, but hoarseness or breathiness was a result - the satisfaction came from being able to live without being misgendered by the voice, but I still think that this would not be the only aim.
I also know some people who are satisfied with their GRS but who lost sensibility or vaginal depth - but as it allows them to live unquestioned in terms of genitalia and got their gender marker changed, they are satisfied as well. Or so they say.
So be careful about peoples claims of satisfaction with some procedure - get yourself a clear picture if YOU would be satisfied with what they got.
+1 to what Anja said. There are all these surgeons doing apparently the same procedure but the details are probably all different. And with VFS the details seem to count. For instance Dr Remacle uses a CO2 laser to cut the vocal folds and Dr Kim uses microscalpels.
I never trust a medical doctor until he proves his trustworthness. His published three studies are very promising. Also the first voice example sounds great. I will research more information.
Lara
what does he use that laser for? instead of the sutures? or to deepithalize the folds so they can grow together after surgery?
are those papers online? do they describe the procedure or also results?
Hi guys,
Interesting thread as I've never heard of anyone in Europe with vaguely as good a rep as Dr. Kim.
Couple of you above mentioned some of Marc Remacle's voice samples? Anyone know where these can be found?
Thanks,
Gigi
Quote from: anjaq on May 19, 2014, 06:46:55 AM
what does he use that laser for? instead of the sutures? or to deepithalize the folds so they can grow together after surgery?
are those papers online? do they describe the procedure or also results?
Apparently he uses the laser to de-epithalize the vocal folds. The paper's here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20171832
I also think the difference could be because he uses absorbable sutures rather than permanent. Because the scar matures over at least a year (maybe longer as vocal folds are avascular) and absorbable sutures are gone in maybe 70 days the scar could stretch. I should say all that's purely speculation on my part. ;)
Some more information I got from Prof Remacle:
- The sutures are slowly resorbable (2-3 weeks), not permanent. According to him, that gives enough time for the formation of the web.
- At the upper voice range his patients also have a mean gain of 100 Hz.
- I asked about singing, and he replied that I should typically be able to sing in a more female range after having this type of surgery but I will have a reduction of the voice range for the lower notes of course.
- It is possible to perform a reduction laryngoplasty in the same session, and he doesn't charge anything extra for that.
- I can return home 3 days after surgery (an ENT in my home town can do the check-ups), but I have to strictly rest my voice for 10 days.
- Prof Remacle stresses that voice training is still important because this procedure doesn't change resonance.
I got the videos from Prof Remacle himself - they are not available anywhere on the internet.
A gain at the upper end is unusual, that sounds pretty neat. sutures that dissolve - I am not sure I trust that as all the ones in Germany use them and the results are very mixed while Dr Kim does not and the results are good... so I am not sure it is a good idea to have them dissolved that fast
So the results you heard in the vids, are they all good and without hoarseness or breathiness? How much does he charge for this - is it comparable to Dr Kim?
If the scar stretches after the sutures have dissolved, this might result in a more breathy voice, doesnt it?
I sadly cannot access the article in full :(
This whole thing about using permanent vs self-dissolving sutures makes me feel a little uneasy at the moment... I hope I've made the right decision - my surgery is only 4 weeks away from now! BTW, Prof Remacle uses a fibrin sealant to reinforce the suture as well.
I have no concerns about using a laser instead of a scalpel on the other hand - I know that it is possible to make very precise incisions with a CO2 laser and Prof Remacle is a renowned specialist in this field.
What also makes me more confident is that Dr. Thomas - a surgeon I highly respect - explicitly recommended Prof Remacle together with Dr Kim for this technique. And the patients in the video examples are also showing good results (and no - they do not sound breathy or hoarse).
I'll keep you informed.
Cool to hear that there are good voice examples. It would be of value for this forum if you would do something like some of the others here did - some recordings from before and after ("unmodified" voice, "feminized" voice, reading Rainbow passage and/or just talking) - so that people can maybe know that there are alternatives? What is the pricing of him - is it in the same range as Dr Kim? Does Dr Thomas not do this procedure himself as well? Which patients does Dr Thomas send to have this procedure instead of his own - I was thinking he has his own procedure which is rather unique and that he would recommend this one istead of the glottoplasty?
Sorry for the many questions ;)
I hope things will go well for you in 4 weeks. That is fast by the way - no long waiting period, it seems?
Good luck with it :)
I wonder why Prof Remacle requires a 2 day hospital stay. Does anyone know?
It's only 1 day in fact. His assistant said two days but Prof Remacle informed me that I can leave the hospital the day after surgery and travel back home 2 days later.
Quote from: anjaq on June 24, 2014, 06:03:23 AM
It would be of value for this forum if you would do something like some of the others here did - some recordings from before and after ("unmodified" voice, "feminized" voice, reading Rainbow passage and/or just talking) - so that people can maybe know that there are alternatives?
I'll try to record something before and after surgery.
QuoteWhat is the pricing of him - is it in the same range as Dr Kim?
See at the beginning of this thread.
QuoteDoes Dr Thomas not do this procedure himself as well? Which patients does Dr Thomas send to have this procedure instead of his own - I was thinking he has his own procedure which is rather unique and that he would recommend this one istead of the glottoplasty?
Dr Thomas doesn't perform Wendler/web glottoplastys himself. I considered his FemLar procedure and he told me that it is quite invasive and that I should also look into Dr Remacle's and Dr Kim's technique before making a decision. He seems to be a very nice person - which other surgeon refers people to his "competitors"?
Oh sorry about the question on the pricing. So it is similar in price.
Does anyone know who "Wendler" is, who seems to be the namegiver of the procedure, so I assume he or she is the one who did this first?
Quote
Dr Thomas doesn't perform Wendler/web glottoplastys himself. I considered his FemLar procedure and he told me that it is quite invasive and that I should also look into Dr Remacle's and Dr Kim's technique before making a decision. He seems to be a very nice person - which other surgeon refers people to his "competitors"?
Indeed - he seems to have the best in mind. but it also is telling that he warns about his own procedure. Indeed it is very invasive and this is why I am not really considering it as a first choice, although I heard that the results can be very good especially since he is the only one yet who can also change resonance
Hi Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on June 25, 2014, 12:09:10 PM
Does anyone know who "Wendler" is, who seems to be the namegiver of the procedure, so I assume he or she is the one who did this first?
http://kinderstimme.uniklinikum-leipzig.de/archiv/2003/Prof_Dr_J%FCrgen_Wendler.htm (http://kinderstimme.uniklinikum-leipzig.de/archiv/2003/Prof_Dr_J%FCrgen_Wendler.htm)
He described the procedure in Wendler, J.:
Proceedings of the Union of the European Phoniatricians, Salsomaggiore, Italy, 1989, as a modification of Donald, PJ: Voice change surgery in the transsexual.
Head Neck Surg. 1982;4:433-437., but IIRC, these were external approaches to the voice box, the endoscopic one being introduced by Gross 1999.
Quote from: anjaq on June 25, 2014, 12:09:10 PM
although I heard that the results can be very good especially since he is the only one yet who can also change resonance
Changing resonance is not required. Post-surgically, the propensity to use female resonance is greatly increased, because the male voice is only obtainable at the very bottom of the range.
Hi, Amy :)
Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 26, 2014, 03:24:57 AM
He described the procedure in Wendler, J.: Proceedings of the Union of the European Phoniatricians, Salsomaggiore, Italy, 1989, as a modification of Donald, PJ: Voice change surgery in the transsexual. Head Neck Surg. 1982;4:433-437., but IIRC, these were external approaches to the voice box, the endoscopic one being introduced by Gross 1999.
Oh wow, so this idea is around for a very very long time
QuoteChanging resonance is not required. Post-surgically, the propensity to use female resonance is greatly increased, because the male voice is only obtainable at the very bottom of the range.
Interesting. But for some odd reason, for some people simply rasing pitch does not seem to change the gender ambiguity of their voice enough and they report sounding like a high pitched male. Resonance seems to be a factor but maybe it depends on the person. I guess for you it is less of an issue, since your larynx probably is small enough already (you said that your vocal chords were of female size). Prosody is of course a major factor in that too, but I would not dismiss resonance ... maybe it gets easier to get it right with a VFS but I guess working on it can improve the voice still...
QuoteChanging resonance is not required. Post-surgically, the propensity to use female resonance is greatly increased, because the male voice is only obtainable at the very bottom of the range.
That's good to hear, but you still have to know HOW to use female resonance. All voice surgeons I have consulted (including Dr Kim) stress the importance of voice training to obtain the proper resonance. There seem to be some people who think they can have this kind of surgery with an untrained male voice as a starting point and sound completely female afterwards. That simply won't happen!
QuoteBut for some odd reason, for some people simply rasing pitch does not seem to change the gender ambiguity of their voice enough and they report sounding like a high pitched male. Resonance seems to be a factor but maybe it depends on the person.
It doesn't depend on the person - resonance is crucial for everybody! The resonance chambers of trans women (at least those who underwent male puberty) are significantly larger than those of cis women. All people with good VFS results I have heard so far have successfully learned to actively control their resonance - most of them BEFORE surgery. It's equally important for a feminine voice as pitch and can only be achieved with conscious (or sub-conscious) effort. I've also heard some of those people who sound like high-pitched males after surgery. These women just weren't able or didn't try to use the proper resonance. It's all a matter of training and critical self perception.
Hello evenstar,
Quote from: evenstar on June 26, 2014, 10:48:52 AM
That's good to hear, but you still have to know HOW to use female resonance.
Yes. I can only imagine what would happen if you underwent this surgery not knowing how to use female resonance. Then you'd probably get stuck in a very small pitch range, as the male voice is only possible to reach up to a certain limit.
But really, using female resonance doesn't require any effort. All the effort you have to put in before VFS goes into pitch.
Regards,
Amy
Hi
Quote from: evenstar on June 26, 2014, 10:48:52 AM
It doesn't depend on the person - resonance is crucial for everybody! The resonance chambers of trans women (at least those who underwent male puberty) are significantly larger than those of cis women.
Well not in all cases I guess. But generally, yes. And I guess that Dr Thomas idea is to change that. So generally I really like his idea - to make the whole larynx smaller snd sitting a bit higher, thus doing more of a reconstruction of a female larynx. But the invasiveness of it is immense. If it works, the resonance chanber is smaller and no resonance control should be needed at all. This would indeed be something for people who cannot do either pitch nor resonance control.
Hi Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 26, 2014, 11:03:53 AM
But really, using female resonance doesn't require any effort. All the effort you have to put in before VFS goes into pitch.
Well for you it does not, but you have a long training and also are a singer. For many others, resonance is not that easily controlled it seems. Hence the many voices one can hear that have a male resonance or at least hints and parts of it (I include myself in the latter category). So voice training is not something to skip with VFS - at least not with Dr Kim and Remacle.
As promised, I'm going to document my voice surgery with some audio recordings. Here are some recordings of my pre-op voice. I've trained extensively with and without a speech therapist, but I still perceive it as somewhat male/androgynous sounding. All other people tell me that it sounds female though and I usually pass in person and on the phone. The problem is: I don't believe them because I hear something else!
Pre-OP, trained "female" voice as I use it everyday:
English, reading rainbow passage: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1wU59uqwwF4
German, reading "Nordwind und Sonne": http://vocaroo.com/i/s0oConNXSIFs
Pre-OP, original male voice (sounds a little higher pitched and weaker than it used to be):
English, reading rainbow passage: http://vocaroo.com/i/s18GGGXZ9K65
German, reading "Nordwind und Sonne": http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ds51hy5dBD
Yeah - I guess your trained voice is really quite good. If it sounds like that without effort, it would be quite good already :) - what training did you use to get i?
Voice training was basically the first thing I started at the beginning of my transition (more than 4 years ago by now). I worked with several of the training programs available, but what helped me most was Andrea James' "Finding Your Female Voice". I practised a lot when driving to work every morning. Later I also trained with two different speech therapists here in Vienna, but honestly speaking I don't think that it improved my voice much more. I also used to sing a lot, though I do not have a trained singing voice. But I guess that helped, too. Unfortunately all the training (and also psychotherapy) didn't help with my biggest problem - self perception. I still perceive my own voice as male no matter what I do.
Ok. I guess I will do this stupid FYFV exercises then :) - I found them to be silly but if it really works that well... I need to bridge another year for financial and work related reasons until I can get VFS if I still want it by then ( I wish I could do it in spring when the finances would be ok, but I cannot stay off the job for a month there and then have another month of basically not speaking).
Quote from: anjaq on June 29, 2014, 06:01:24 AM
Ok. I guess I will do this stupid FYFV exercises then :) - I found them to be silly but if it really works that well...
Yes indeed, these exercises sound silly - but that's the reason why they work. You basically train the correct pitch AND resonance with one single exercise - over and over again. It's a clever drill that imprints the correct sound and muscle activation pattern on your mind. After some time you can easily expand the training syllables to whole words and sentences.
Well the "squeezing" part of the exercises is not good. My voice therapists said I should keep them to a minimum if I try it because this is what I was doing too much over the past years already. I am not sure how that squeezing and breathy vowels will reall be feminine - I mean, I could do them a lot of times and it would still be similar would it not be? How does the feedback work to improve it, I am not sure about this. Maybe I am just not good enough in english when it comes to really talking about language. I get it that if you have the right sound that you repeat it a lot and speak a lot in that sound, but doing a squeezed aaaa going to an breathy aaa - I am not sure how I would go from that to a female voice? Maybe I am too daft to understand the exercises ;)
I can imagine if this works well, it may be a good preparation for VFS...
The squeezing is the most important part in my opinion. The correct female voice is exactly in the middle between the "squeezed" and "breathy" voice so you have to train both before you can find it. The squeezed voice is also a good training for the vocal muscles but of course you have to be careful in the beginning because it is very stressful.
The squeezing is the "twang" I was talking a lot about in my previous postings. It's an essential component in the trained female voice. You need surprisingly little of it post-VFS though.
Amy
Well yes of course, a bit can be used, but that strong use of it is maybe not good for me. To use too much "twang" was probably what caused my hourglass glottis and all the issues with it, so therapists orders for now are to use more of the breathy part.
A question: Where is the male voice in that glide from squeezed to breathy sound? ;) And if it is not there - how so?
Hi Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2014, 03:18:16 PM
To use too much "twang" was probably what caused my hourglass glottis and all the issues with it, so therapists orders for now are to use more of the breathy part.
Well, actually, twang is the opposite of breathiness. Twang is 100% sound, no escaping air, with complete forward focus. That's why twang is louder and more piercing than any other sound we can make.
Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2014, 03:18:16 PM
A question: Where is the male voice in that glide from squeezed to breathy sound? ;) And if it is not there - how so?
Cathrine Sadolin divides the sounds available to the human voice into four categories: Neutral (aka female resonance), Curbing (kind of a whining, moaning sound), Overdrive (a shout, male resonance) and Edge (a scream).
Both breathiness and twang are not possible in the male voice (Overdrive). By referencing everything to breathiness, Andrea James is keeping you in Neutral (female resonance). The squeezed sound is also possible in Curbing, but breathiness isn't. On the other hand, it adds volume and "body" to Neutral. That's why this exercise is so valuable: it keeps your voice in Neutral, but amplifies the volume. BTW, Curbing and Edge also can sound feminine, but are no sensible options for speaking, for obvious reasons.
Regards,
Amy
Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2014, 03:18:16 PM
A question: Where is the male voice in that glide from squeezed to breathy sound? ;) And if it is not there - how so?
This is how I see it:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/fyfv.png)
The female voice is located higher in the mixed register(as the name says, a mixture between the head and chest registers) whereas the normal male voice is located below in the chest register. "Pinched" and "breathy" are a whole different dimension and independent of the registers. It's impossible to use a pinched or breathy voice in the lowest chest register though, and it's also virtually impossible to use a breathy voice in the highest falsetto.
I doubt it is quicker than CTA. Reading what people have been describing here, you have 2 weeks of not even coughing if possible, then 2 more weeks of not saying more than a word a day, then 4 more weeks of not saying much at all and then you can slowly start, after half a year or so you are almost at the voice that will remain with still more healing going on (I hope Jenny will say how much happened between 9 Months and well over a year one day, so we know if there is still something to be expected). With CTA I guess the voice can be used earlier, but it will be too high pitched at first and then come down - with bad luck it will come down too low. But I am not really aware of healing peropds for CTA.
I read two blogs about people doing glottoplasty in Germany describing their recovery. They both did try to talk within the first week and produced raspy sounds, but say they could whisper and were back to speaking adter 2 weeks. One woman I know of was screaming after just about 2 weeks loudly and ruptured the suture. Do you really think that these clinics were good at judging how long the recovery takes? Me not. For them it is a week of hospital stay and then you go home and do whatever you think, you get the advice to not talk too much. I am not surprised that for those following these "procedures", their voices are not totall healthy in the end :(
there is a shorter description here: http://selina.web99.de/homepage/index.php?way=1&site=READOUT&DERNAME=Stimm%20OP%20+%20Logop%E4die&dm=selina&USER=selina&goto=1&XURL=&WB=&EXTRAX=X&PIDX=111734
(it says to "not speak, and if so then only very low volume for 3 weeks after surgery" - clearly not enough!)
And one more elaborate description with recovery:
http://www.alexandra-aktuell.de/stimme_logo/stimme_a.htm - it also mentions Prof Remarcle who did a CTA on one patient there
And one more:
http://alex_home.beepworld.de/neue-stimme.htm
That is about all I could find regarding more detailled descriptions and personal experiences from Germany. And they are all rather old. Its a taboo topic in Germany to do voice surgery . No one supports it and people get criticized a lot if they do this, even good results of it are called bad voices or it is claimed it is a waste as the same could have been done with training.
Unfortunately I can't reply to personal messages on this forum - does anybody know why?
Somebody asked me if I know any places to stay near Prof Remacle's clinic: I am going to stay at the Royal Snail Hotel in Namur. I checked out a lot of hotels in the area and this seems to be one of the best.
Sorry - PMs are only available after some time after registration or rather after you have done some posts
I had my surgery with Prof Remacle on Friday and so far everything went very well. Surprisingly, I am not experiencing much pain and discomfort - after reading many reports here in the forum, I expected it to be much worse. Now I am in the crucial phase of not being allowed to produce any noise for ten days. The hardest thing is to avoid coughing, and of course sometimes I just couldn't manage to do it and had to cough very gently. What I heard then was very low and male sounding, but I think that can be expected right after surgery.
One word of advice if you think about having surgery here: Except for Prof Remacle and the anesthetists, nobody here really speaks or understands English. If you don't know at least some basic French, things will be quite complicated.
The clinic itself (UCL Mont-Godinne) is a strange mix of VERY old and hyper-modern - I guess they're in a process of gradual renovation at the moment. Everyone was very friendly and competent, but of course this is a public hospital and you can't compare it to a private, commercial institution like the Yeson Voice Center. There were longer waiting times, some smaller hiccups concerning my payment via bank transfer and so on. I stayed one night after surgery and have been discharged yesterday.
Before surgery, I had an appointment with an anesthetist and a speech therapist who took a lot of measurements of my voice (yes, including the lowest male tone I could produce - very embarrassing!). She said my trained female voice was already very good (at about 200 Hz) and I explained to her that the main reason for me to have this surgery done is to reduce the effort it takes to stay in the feminine range.
Right before surgery, Prof Remacle came to talk to me and he explained the whole procedure once again. We also agreed that he would do a trachea shave in the same session. After about two hours I was brought to the operating room. I was quite nervous, but the anesthetist talked to me all the time and cleverly distracted me till I fell asleep.
I woke up again after about one and a half hours, feeling quite comfortable except for a mild soreness in my throat. After a short time they brought me to my room. The following hours were a little difficult because I had to adjust to not being able to speak and I always had the urge to remove some phlegm from my throat - virtually impossible without coughing. I guess I produced some pretty scary sounds during these first hours and of course I was afraid that I pulled out the suture. I wasn't allowed to eat or drink the first day but I wasn't hungry anyway. The first night was ok, I found that lying on the side alleviated the urge to clear my throat.
The next day I had an ENT exam (transnasal fiberscopy which means putting a little tube in your throat through your nose...) and everything looked fine. I got some prescriptions (antibiotics, pain medication which I don't needed so far, proton pump inhibitors to avoid reflux) and I also purchased a device to inhale three times a day.
Now I'm back at my hotel in Namur feeling quite comfortable. I am very curious how my voice will turn out...
Interesting! Please let us know how your recovery is going on.
Lara
Short update:
It's the end of the last day of my voice rest period, and so I took the chance to say a few words (counting from 1 to 10 - very softly and carefully, of course). From what I can say, my voice still sounds weak, but it has definitely changed: I tried to stay as relaxed as possible and so I expected to hear my old male voice, but what I heard seemed to be about an octave higher! Wow!
Last Friday I also had an examination with an ENT specialist here in my home town, and he said the vocal folds are healing well (no inflammation, just some mild redness on the left side) and the suture is in place.
I am very pleased so far. But now back to voice rest - I don't want to do any damage...
I'm very interested in following your progress. I'm from the UK, and this would be an awfully lot more convenient than South Korea. Did you make a recording of your voice before the procedure? If you're willing to share such a recording, contrasting it to an "after" recording would be very helpful. It'd be nice if Yeson had some serious competition. Monopoly breeds complacency, and worse, after all.
Quote from: NIP on August 06, 2014, 02:29:58 AM
Did you make a recording of your voice before the procedure?
I already posted a pre-op recording in this thread. I'll keep you updated!
Hi all, been following this thread and threads like it for quite a while - especially the wonderful Jenny's experiences, who fielded a lot of my questions just over a year ago whilst I was still in my *ahem* GCS surgery recovery bed! But I'd also like to thank Evenstar, as your even more recent procedure gives me confidence too :) x
I will be undergoing a glottoplasty here in the U.K in less than two weeks. I'm in a bit of mild panic about the keeping-silent for 2 weeks thing, I may have to tape my mouth shut!
Kate - will you share your experiences with us? What doctor you are visiting, maybe pre and post recordings of trained and untrained voice? That would be great as I think many are in the UK and could profit from a good surgeon there compared to going to other countries, although I always have doubt when it comes to surgeons who do not specialize in this.
I'll definitely make the recordings, and hopefully have the courage to make them available :)
My surgeon is Professor Janet Wilson. Interestingly I was originally scheduled for a CTA, but she was very good at impartially recommending that I consider the Glottoplasty - and once I'd figured out what that procedure actually was, I jumped at the chance :)
Here is a very short clip of my voice as it is a little more than 3 weeks after surgery. I am still only allowed to talk very softly, and my voice is also quite hoarse (which will remain for another couple of weeks), but from what I can say I am very satisfied so far. This is the natural speaking pitch and it takes zero effort to stay there.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1CBG27XfB65
Here another short recording. Today my voice was a little less hoarse and also a little higher.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0F92q2DMe7W
After nearly one month, I am allowed to talk normally now. I am still careful of course. My voice is already fairly clear in the mornings, but it still gets hoarse quickly. This is mostly caused by the sutures and fibrin glue which started to dissolve and get in the way of my vocal cords now. It gets better if I clear my throat gently. Prof Remacle told me that I can expect to cough up the remaining sutures and glue soon.
Here is another short voice clip I recorded today. It sounds pretty good to me (much better than my best pre-op voice recordings) but you notice that it gets hoarse on the word "beautiful".
Post-OP recording August 14: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0K2hXNQzzzT
Here is my pre-op recording for comparison: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1wU59uqwwF4
Pre-OP male voice: http://vocaroo.com/i/s18GGGXZ9K65
Here are also some pictures of my recent ENT exam - you can still see the fibrin glue at the anterior commissure:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/DSC_0096.JPG) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/DSC_0098.JPG)
I am very satisified with my result so far. Not only do I find it nearly effortless to speak in the right range now; the best thing is that the surgery has changed my timbre in a subtle way that makes it possible for me to perceive my own voice as female for the first time in my life!
QuoteIt gets better if I clear my throat gently. Prof Remacle told me that I can expect to cough up the remaining sutures and glue soon.
I can understand that you feel like coughing by the looks of the glue etc. Does this give problems eating and swallowing.? I can imagine that its important that an experienced ENT does the local examinations. If there are post-op problems, these pictures would probably worry an unwary ENT. Getting the "arch" of the web just right with glottoplasty seems to be crucial for future voice.
A fantastic result ! :)
I can only hope that my result will be comparable *fingers crossed*
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on August 14, 2014, 03:09:47 AM
Does this give problems eating and swallowing.?
No, no problems at all. I don't feel the presence of the sutures and glue in any other way than being hoarse.
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on August 14, 2014, 03:09:47 AM
I can imagine that its important that an experienced ENT does the local examinations. If there are post-op problems, these pictures would probably worry an unwary ENT.
Actually, the ENT who took this pictures had no former experience with glottoplasties. He didn't seem to be worried at all and just told me that the sutures have started to dissolve.
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on August 14, 2014, 03:09:47 AM
Getting the "arch" of the web just right with glottoplasty seems to be crucial for future voice.
I think that's true. I cannot judge the shape of the newly formed anterior commissure yet because it's hidden under the remaining glue, but I have the impression that Prof Remacle got it perfectly right because my voice already sounds very good when it's not hoarse.
Quote from: Kate_H on August 14, 2014, 03:17:45 AM
A fantastic result ! :)
I can only hope that my result will be comparable *fingers crossed*
Thank you, and I wish you good luck for your surgery! :)
How long after surgery were you able to eat "normally"? As I understand it the vocal folds retract when swallowing. Could you feel any difference with swallowing.
I ate normally the day after surgery. There was just some mild soreness, also due to the reduction laryngoplasty.
I am not sure about thos pictures - how to interpret them. The sutures are not visible and it is hard to judge how it goes - on a first glace it looks like they did not do the same type of suture that I have seen before or the suture is hidden blow. With the state as it was in the pictures, I am a bit amazed you do not sound hoarse, as there is not really an arch visible there , but rather the vocal chords seem to stretch to a commussure that is below the glue or even below the cutoff of the image? If you ever get pictures again after the glue is gone, it would be great to take a look :)
Quote from: anjaq on August 14, 2014, 06:10:51 AM
I am not sure about thos pictures - how to interpret them. The sutures are not visible and it is hard to judge how it goes - on a first glace it looks like they did not do the same type of suture that I have seen before or the suture is hidden blow. With the state as it was in the pictures, I am a bit amazed you do not sound hoarse, as there is not really an arch visible there , but rather the vocal chords seem to stretch to a commussure that is below the glue or even below the cutoff of the image? If you ever get pictures again after the glue is gone, it would be great to take a look :)
The glue is hanging loosely at the moment, and you're right, it is covering the anterior commissure in the pictures. It moves around when I am speaking, and I am hoarse when it comes between the vocal folds.
I exported some more pictures from a video I made at my ENT exam. I filmed it with my mobile phone so quality isn't optimal. I hope you can see better where the anterior commissure is in those. Unfortunately my tongue is in the way most of the time.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/glottoplasty1.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/glottoplasty2.jpg)
I can also see in these pictures that I have rather long and thin vocal folds compared to others I have seen - which seems to be good for the outcome of a glottoplasty.
QuoteI can also see in these pictures that I have rather long and thin vocal folds compared to others I have seen - which seems to be good for the outcome of a glottoplasty.
Thats why its important with voice therapy prior to surgery. It helps to elongate the vocal folds. The thinner and longer the better.
It would be interesting to see the end result once all the residue has been cleared away.
What medications were you placed on post-op? You mentioned being treated with antibiotics and proton pump inhibitors. How long were you on these for? and were inhaled steroids also prescribed?
PS
Ive already seen vids on YouTube showing a standard glottoplasty but..
Does anybody know of a link to an actual video showing the
wendler glottoplasty?
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on August 14, 2014, 07:16:42 AM
It would be interesting to see the end result once all the residue has been cleared away.
I have a follow-up in three weeks and I will take more pictures then.
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on August 14, 2014, 07:16:42 AM
What medications were you placed on post-op? You mentioned being treated with antibiotics and proton pump inhibitors. How long were you on these for? and were inhaled steroids also prescribed?
Yes, I've been on antibiotics for 2 days. I took the proton pump inhibitors (Pantomed) only for a few days since I didn't tolerate them well. I replaced them with Sucralfat afterwards. I also bought a device to inhale corticosteroids (Celestone), which I did three times a day for about two weeks.
Do you have a photo of the vocal chords before surgery for comparison?
No, unfortunately I don't have any pre-op photos.
Don't worry about your upcoming surgery, three ENT specialists (including Prof Remacle) agree that everything is as it should be. The pictures look gross with all the remaining fibrin glue and sutures hanging between my voal folds. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted them in the first place, but I wanted to document the healing progress. The anterior commissure is not visible in these photos because of the glue and also because they haven't been shot from the right angle. These were made with a normal laryngoscope, not via transnasal fiberscopy. I hope I can get better pictures during my next examination.
Sorry, but I still cannot see a suture there in the pictures. Lets wait for proper post op checkup once the glue is gone, the glue is not the issue - it is only a small patch and cannot cover the suture unles sit is really short. I cannot say anything about the length of the vocal chords, the scale of these endoscopic photos is always different. But if it was not shot from the right angle it may be an explanation. The suture would have to be basically below the lower edge of the picture. If you have 1/3 of your vocal folds sutured as it is the case in most other of these procedures I read about, you would have to imagine the part that is unsutured and then it would have to go 1/2 of that "below" the point where the glue is. This means a huge part of the vocal folds in not in the photos. Thats a bit strange as this would obviously be the part he would have to take a look at mostly? Well - I do not quite understand this but if he says this is as it should be, we can just wait for some more time and see what it looks like once the glue is gone.
Just for comparison how my vocal folds look like (not surgically altered but with my vocal dysphonia which I am working on currently - the folds should close conpletely and not have these gaps as seen in the "closed" picture)
closed:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FxSbCJa3.png&hash=11091f026959187075f675461fe6fe60547332fb)
open:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7XpSxRC.png&hash=cf4b435fa4e2e0708f5d169b5b2fcb28ea117fcd)
Quote from: anjaq on August 16, 2014, 02:31:13 PM
Sorry, but I still cannot see a suture there in the pictures. Lets wait for proper post op checkup once the glue is gone, the glue is not the issue - it is only a small patch and cannot cover the suture unles sit is really short. I cannot say anything about the length of the vocal chords, the scale of these endoscopic photos is always different. But if it was not shot from the right angle it may be an explanation. The suture would have to be basically below the lower edge of the picture. If you have 1/3 of your vocal folds sutured as it is the case in most other of these procedures I read about, you would have to imagine the part that is unsutured and then it would have to go 1/2 of that "below" the point where the glue is. This means a huge part of the vocal folds in not in the photos. Thats a bit strange as this would obviously be the part he would have to take a look at mostly? Well - I do not quite understand this but if he says this is as it should be, we can just wait for some more time and see what it looks like once the glue is gone.
You're right, unfortunately the photos are not optimal. I had a strong urge to gag during the laryngoscopy and so the doctor struggled to get usable pictures at all. I've studied the video more closely and I think I can guess quite accurately where the anterior commissure must be. I've marked the inner and outer edges (partially hidden in the pictures) of the vocal folds in the pictures below. The web should be between those points. Let's see if I'm right in a few weeks...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/glottoplasty1%20(2).jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/glottoplasty2%20(2).jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/Untitled-1.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/Untitled-2.jpg)
BTW, this is how a good result from Prof Remacle should look after healing is completed (this picture is from one of his research papers):
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/remacle.jpg)
Did they say how much they have shortened the chords? It seems from your guesstimates in the pictures to be about 1/4 maybe?
Quote from: anjaq on August 16, 2014, 05:20:50 PM
Did they say how much they have shortened the chords? It seems from your guesstimates in the pictures to be about 1/4 maybe?
He told me 1/3. But I think you have to measure that when the vocal folds are in speaking position. When they are open or half open (as in the photos) the sutured area looks a little smaller. I will have to wait until I have proper pictures to judge that.
But I did a quick comparison with some post-op pictures from Yeson and it looks pretty similar, maybe a little bit more conservative. If you take the trachea as a reference point, it can be seen very well in these pictures that the vocal cords actually extend far more anterior - but they have to be photographed from further away and from exactly above to see this:
(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/0/34951-060714101927.jpeg)
Yes - it makes more sense now. Just odd that he did not take proper photos then. The voice box has a bit of a Y shape as well and not a V shape - so it hides a bit the length ot he suture if one tries to project the lines as a V.
Quote from: anjaq on August 16, 2014, 06:24:35 PM
Just odd that he did not take proper photos then.
These were not taken by Prof Remacle, an ENT here in Vienna took them.
So... I'm very nervous about the whole no speaking for 2 weeks thing. With my partner and three cats I know I'm going to struggle. I plan to take 2 weeks off work, so that helps obviously. Any suggestions of how I can keep my vow of silence? I was thinking lollipops, lol.
Quote from: Kate_H on August 17, 2014, 04:15:06 AM
So... I'm very nervous about the whole no speaking for 2 weeks thing. With my partner and three cats I know I'm going to struggle. I plan to take 2 weeks off work, so that helps obviously. Any suggestions of how I can keep my vow of silence? I was thinking lollipops, lol.
Lollipops could work - I preferred keeping my mouth full with lots of ice cream though... ;)
Seriously, the first few days are hard, but you'll get used to it. Using alternative means of communication helps - writing, sign language, text-to-speech-apps, ...
But prepare to stay silent for more than two weeks - I wasn't able to speak properly before about 4 weeks after surgery, and my voice is still hoarse most of the time now.
It seems that staying silent for a month is perhaps the best advice then slowly begin speaking a few words daily throughout month 2. Better to be on the cautious side than not.
Well, this thread has come as a pleasant surprise. I didn't think anyone comparable to Yeson would be showing up in Europe any time soon.
Grgrglgl. ... I feel like s****. Lol
Feels like mouth is boxing ring.
Quote from: Kate_H on August 20, 2014, 11:19:16 AM
Grgrglgl. ... I feel like s****. Lol
Feels like mouth is boxing ring.
Hope you feel better soon Kate :)
Just wondering if the UK Op was NHS or private? Very interested in any details xx
Quote from: kim27 on August 20, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
Hope you feel better soon Kate :)
Just wondering if the UK Op was NHS or private? Very interested in any details xx
The VFS glottoplasty is done both on the NHS and as a private op. Cost is about £3K, which includes an overnight stay.
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on August 20, 2014, 04:42:59 PM
The VFS glottoplasty is done both on the NHS and as a private op. Cost is about £3K, which includes an overnight stay.
Just wondering if anyone has any more info or links?
Thanks :)
NHS. But only after a pretty intense 5 year pushing for it as I couldn't afford any more private work. And even then I was desperate and accepted the only option on the table: cricothyroid approximation. Imagine my surprise when my surgeon offered the glottoplasty instead. Once I'd figured out what that actually was I practically bawled my eyes out with joy =)
Not so joyful at the moment, mind. Interestingly, 90% of pain/discomfort is in my mouth from the strain of it being wedged open and my tongue clamped to one side during op. Not coughing/clearing throat was hardest on first day tho, and I got a bit panicky after having a couple of completely involuntary minor ones =(
Also, trying desperately not to accidentally whisper when dealing with nurses.
Fun fun fun. Home today tho, so hope will be easier once there. So long as I can avoid the cats!
Quote from: Kate_H on August 21, 2014, 12:45:39 AM
NHS. But only after a pretty intense 5 year pushing for it as I couldn't afford any more private work. And even then I was desperate and accepted the only option on the table: cricothyroid approximation. Imagine my surprise when my surgeon offered the glottoplasty instead. Once I'd figured out what that actually was I practically bawled my eyes out with joy =)
Not so joyful at the moment, mind. Interestingly, 90% of pain/discomfort is in my mouth from the strain of it being wedged open and my tongue clamped to one side during op. Not coughing/clearing throat was hardest on first day tho, and I got a bit panicky after having a couple of completely involuntary minor ones =(
Also, trying desperately not to accidentally whisper when dealing with nurses.
Fun fun fun. Home today tho, so hope will be easier once there. So long as I can avoid the cats!
Really glad for you - hope the voice turns out great - would be nice to hear when you recover :)
Don't think I could wait for 5 years for the NHS - apparently the GIC I go to in Scotland has never referred anyone for voice surgery, so I am off to Yeson in November - but would love to hear your results when you can talk again. The main thing I am not looking forward to is the not talking, but I am writing an app to speak for me lol xx
Oh Kim, I think we might be kindred spirits. If the Scottish GiC you speak of is the Sandyford Glasgow, then I know exactly what you're talking about. They shot me down in flames time after time. Things really started moving for me once my local specialist for NHS Highland took on my case, culminating in him organising a meeting with ENT. head honchos last September. I stated my case to them direct, asking the man and the woman to each imagine putting on each others voice, and to imagine doing that all the time, consciously.
In January they agreed to fund me for CTA, I met with Prof. Wilson in June (delayed because of burocratic error!) and then she threw the curveball to me my suggesting the glottoplasty instead. Now I was well aware of the amazing Yeson work, but I hadn't clocked what their actual procedure was. Once I did... well, I'm writing this from my hospital bed just now, lol x
For interest: when I was clarifying what the actual procedure was with my surgeon, I sent her Marc Remarcle's procedure breakdown, to which she replied "yes, similar to Marc's, except I use micro-scalpels and scissors instead of laser. "
Quote from: Kate_H on August 21, 2014, 01:28:19 AM
For interest: when I was clarifying what the actual procedure was with my surgeon, I sent her Marc Remarcle's procedure breakdown, to which she replied "yes, similar to Marc's, except I use micro-scalpels and scissors instead of laser. "
Congrats on your surgery. Sounds promising. Definitely worth pursuing through the NHS.
This thread has developed into a "Voice options in Europe" thread in the meantime... ;)
Anyway, here is another picture of my glottis. This was taken one month and three days post-op via transnasal fiberscopy. Picture quality isn't great because of the lower resolution of the transnasal device, but unlike the former photos, this one has the right angle to see where the web is. The suture has exactly 1/3 of the length of my vocal folds. It is still partially covered with fibrin glue. My ENT (not Prof Remacle!) said that everything in there looks quite swollen at the moment. I also have the impression that my hoarseness has become worse over the last days. I hope that the sutures and glue will come out soon and that the hoarseness will disappear.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/transnasal_laryngoscopy.jpg)
The tracheal shave alone is enough to make your voice hoarse for the first month or so.
I'm in mortal fear for the sutures. First 48hrs so important, and I had a few minor coughs that I could not prevent, and thanks to a non working toilet door on a train, when someone opened the door on me whilst still pulling my leggings up they solicited a gasp from me. It's after 48hrs now, and I've had a few more watery but still pretty minor coughs. Hope everything is holding together! Otherwise doing very well in the no - sound dept!
As I understood it from Jenny, minor coughs ar enot too bad, as long as there is no pain, it should be fine. I guess one should avoid situations that can be exciting or shocking as best as possible ;)
You bet! Going to try and confine myself to house for a few days!
Technically off work for 2-3 weeks, so that'll help A LOT, lol
Thanks for making me feel better tho =) x
Just about asked my other half a question just now... got as far as a "ssssss" before I caught myself!
*wipes brow*
Quote from: evenstar on August 17, 2014, 04:24:24 AM
Lollipops could work - I preferred keeping my mouth full with lots of ice cream though... ;)
Seriously, the first few days are hard, but you'll get used to it. Using alternative means of communication helps - writing, sign language, text-to-speech-apps, ...
But prepare to stay silent for more than two weeks - I wasn't able to speak properly before about 4 weeks after surgery, and my voice is still hoarse most of the time now.
She wasn't kidding! 3 weeks down, and I'm incapable of anything than a hoarse whisper at present, but that made me happy, so relieved was I not to have my old untrained voice issue forth, like it did in my nightmares!
Quote from: evenstar on August 16, 2014, 05:06:10 PM
You're right, unfortunately the photos are not optimal. I had a strong urge to gag during the laryngoscopy and so the doctor struggled to get usable pictures at all. I've studied the video more closely and I think I can guess quite accurately where the anterior commissure must be. I've marked the inner and outer edges (partially hidden in the pictures) of the vocal folds in the pictures below. The web should be between those points. Let's see if I'm right in a few weeks...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/glottoplasty1%20(2).jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/glottoplasty2%20(2).jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/Untitled-1.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39733985/Untitled-2.jpg)
Its a pity that there was no follow up of the Belgium surgery beyond the 1 month mark. This was otherwise a very well documented thread. Either way I hope that things turned out well for Evenstar.
STILL ALIVE.
:)
Hoarse, but recovering here \o/
Quote from: Kate_H on September 22, 2014, 04:41:40 AM
STILL ALIVE.
:)
Hoarse, but recovering here \o/
I hope you're well on you way to recovery now! I wondered whether we could have a little update on your progress?
Hi all,
I had a consultation with a speech pathologist today before starting a voice reeducation programme with a speech therapist. Among others, she looked at my vocal cords and checked my base frequency (about 190Hz). My vocal cords are very long but thin and she immediately suggested I look at having them shortened, saying that with vocal cords like that, I should get a very good result from such surgery. Interestingly, she spontaneously recommending Dr Remacle to whom I sent an e-mail before finding this thread here. I may well be one of the next people to make the trip his way as the convenience of getting this done in Europe versus Korea looks very attractive to me.
Evenstar, if you are still looking in here, I would be very interested in knowing how things have evolved for you since the summer.
Hugs
Donna
Yes indeed it would be great to get updates on this.
Donna, if your base frequency is 190 Hz - why on earth would you want to have your vocal chords shortened? Do you want to sound like a teenage girl ;) - 190 Hz is what I aim for AFTER VFS :P
Hi Anjaq,
My voice still doesn't pass on the phone which is a real problem for me on the professional front. After work on resonance with the speech therapist it may be better but apart from that, I love singing and while I can reach about 370Hz when my voice is warmed up, that's still way too low for a half decent alto.
I haven't decided yet but, if I do, the other interesting thing about the Belgian option is that I could probably have the cost of the operation covered by French health insurance. That would be very welcome after all the stuff I have already paid for from my own pocket.
Other than that, Dr Remacle answered the mail I sent him almost immediately, which was nice...
Warm regards.
Donna
Well - its your voice, but this seems odd to me - your base pitch (without voice therapy?) is at 190 and yout maximum is at 370 with warmup? That would be only one octave! I am not sure this can be right. My range is from 80, 110 as a base pitch) up to 880 with a register transition between 350 and 400.
It it is correct, remember that VFS usually does not add as much on the top as it takes from the bottom. In some cases it does not add much at the top at all.
The top part is to a large degree about training. And about going into head voice smoothly - I assume those 370 Hz are just the limits of your chest voice, or can you really not go beyond that?
Also, I read at least twice that at least Yeson warned and almost refused to do a surgery on peopl ewith already feminine pitch because he said that it would not feminize the voice any more, since the reason it is identified as male is not in the pitch then and that is what he corrects.
How did you get your pitch data?
Thought it a good idea to combine my postings together with Evenstars because it really is quite informative. After nearly 4 weeks voice rest I decided to give my voice a tryout. It's still very hoarse and I can feel it difficult to produce any sound. I did manage to say the days of the week. It's hard for me to discern the difference, so I measured the results in Praat which gave 226 and my baseline voice previously was 130. That's with zero conscious effort and a gain of nearly 100. Will be interesting what the next month's training show.
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on April 26, 2015, 04:36:34 AM
Thought it a good idea to combine my postings together with Evenstars because it really is quite informative. After nearly 4 weeks voice rest I decided to give my voice a tryout. It's still very hoarse and I can feel it difficult to produce any sound. I did manage to say the days of the week. It's hard for me to discern the difference, so I measured the results in Praat which gave 226 and my baseline voice previously was 130. That's with zero conscious effort and a gain of nearly 100. Will be interesting what the next month's training show.
WOW that's sounds really promising...I hope Prof Remacle will accomplish wonders with me too... Countdown 39 days
226 Hz at only 4 weeks, thats amazing...
34 days post-op VFS. Not quite healed. Still single sutur and glue remaining. Spoken carefully on 2 occasions, but apparently managed to overstrain voice. Have caught a sore throat which has not helped much, but will get it checked in a day or two. No fever, coughing, so probably not an infection. Self imposed silence until I know more. Biggest problem to date is side effects from anti-refux meds. Bad obstipation.
Back to see the ENT this morning after several days with a sore throat.Apparently it's still a single stitch and glue that irritating my throat but says that it still looks ok. Apparently these things dissolve at different speeds for different people. In my case it has held for 5 weeks and probably 6, which means good support during an iimportant healing period. I will now limit my speech until I get the all clear that everything has dissolved.