If you find yourself saying it, try to catch yourself and think. It's extremely judgmental and condescending toward all types of people who are just fine as the individuals they are. It can pretty much be translated as "You are not behaving in the manner in which I expect a man to behave."
http://www.upworthy.com/just-in-case-you-need-help-figuring-out-whether-a-dude-is-a-real-man-heres-a-handy-chart?c=upw1
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9w03WoA.png&hash=603f03966376e6b52741562af47b9e3e35341a53)
Oooh I hate that phrase. Also makes me think of "manly" and "girly" and they piss me off too. All this junk of what's considered for how someone should act/behave/be. Does not fly by me.
Yeah, I've never liked expressions like that, either. "Man up," "be a man"... Then there are all the ones associating testicles with courage, boldness, etc... I've never used these phrases even once in my life, and they always make me feel uncomfortable when I hear them. Then, of course, there are the ones like calling men who are perceived to be weak in some way a certain slang word for female genitalia...
It's all pretty uncomfortable for me to hear...
hmm its hard to make the world around us prescribe to our discomforts.
I agree phrases like not having the balls to do something are kind of annoying sometimes, but to a certain extent these things often spin out of control into the area of getting to be a bit overly PC to me.
My co-host is fond of substituting "ovaries" whenever he's about to make a statement like that, e.g. "It took some mighty big ovaries to try that!" I like to think every time he says that, it makes people think about these little catch phrases.
Glad you posted this. I was just thinking about this very issue last night. How people are more and more accepting of a girl doing "masculine" things but there are still ridiculously outdated, and unrealistic, expectations for men in terms of roles.
I think it depends on why your saying it though, I mean I tell people it because sometimes you really do need to be a man about some things and man up, Like for instance I get really shy when it comes to talking to girls my friends always tell me to man up or grow some balls, I really don't get offended by that I actually like being told to man up or grow some because it makes think and it actually makes me be able to do do what I need to do as a young man. Wheather you like it or not if your a man you have to handle your buisness like one. I've been called the female genetalia slang word and the Bword it doesn't bother me one bit though because I know that I'm considered a man by alot an they only call men that especially the younger gen....
There is a video about "man up" that I came across some time ago. I found it very moving and extremely powerful. It's one of those things that makes me think a lot about masculinity. Maybe some people here will identify with it. Here it is:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QFoBaTkPgco
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 03:54:36 PM
Wheather you like it or not if your a man you have to handle your buisness like one.
Yeah, this attitude that there's a certain way there is to be a man is the problem. What does "handle your business like one" mean if not to say that there is a specific way that men are "supposed" to act?
I've always disliked that phrase — it's so condescending. I'd be more than happy to see it go.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 07, 2014, 04:21:17 PM
Yeah, this attitude that there's a certain way there is to be a man is the problem. What does "handle your business like one" mean if not to say that there is a specific way that men are "supposed" to act?
Whatever the definition of a man is you do that, I think alot of people here take some things to heart alittle to much, I just feel like if you are a man who holds feminine traits then you can't really get mad when someone tells you to man up or grow some, Masculine men already get it so you can best believe if your feminine your gonna get it to and you can't stop it thats the world we live in. Know do I agree with not allowing feminine men no I don't but if your gonna do hese things prepare for the consequences
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 04:38:44 PM
Whatever the definition of a man is you do that, I think alot of people here take some things to heart alittle to much, I just feel like if you are a man who holds feminine traits then you can't really get mad when someone tells you to man up or grow some, Masculine men already get it so you can best believe if your feminine your gonna get it to and you can't stop it hats the world we live in. Know do I agree with not allowing feminine men no I don't but if your gonna do hese things prepare for the consequences
And what are you "being" if you're not being a "man"? The implication is that you are being a woman and that this is somehow worse.
I hate that phrase (and several others). I also have noticed that insults to guys involve calling them girls or female body parts. I think this kind of thing is essentially violent and leads to violence. I really like the video above. Also like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc45-ptHMxo
--Jay
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 07, 2014, 04:40:24 PM
And what are you "being" if you're not being a "man"? The implication is that you are being a woman and that this is somehow worse.
Well you already know what society is gonna see you as but I'm not gonna use thoes words, I don't think we should use them but hey we can't stop it, I've been called it not for being feminine though but because I wasn't handling things like I needed. It didn't really upset me same with the man up and grow some thing I tell myself that sometimes, I even told this girl that I'm interested in that I need to man up and grow some balls she laughed because its true sometines I really do so do others unfortunately.
And when you black its 10 times worse.
I don't like this phrase either. I say to myself and others that I'm not a 'man' just a 'guy'. I don't want to be one of those overly masculine dudes. I have no interest in fixing cars, building stuff, talking about guns and stuff like that hahahaha. And I'm not the bravest person either. Men are always looked at as 'protecters' and being 'brave' and all that but you know, I'm not really a risk taker and I don't like to fight with people. I guess you could call me the slang word for female genitalia, the word for a female dog or even a geek (which I actually am :P) but I don't care. There isn't a certain way to be a man just like there isn't a certain way to be a woman.
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 04:52:12 PM
Well you already know what society is gonna see you as but I'm not gonna use thoes words, I don't think we should use them but hey we can't stop it, I've been called it not for being feminine though but because I wasn't handling things like I needed. It didn't really upset me same with the man up and grow some thing I tell myself that sometimes, I even told this girl that I'm interested in that I need to man up and grow some balls she laughed because its true sometines I really do so do others unfortunately.
And when you black its 10 times worse.
The way to fix problems is not to say "well it's gonna happen because society is like that, so I should just accept it". It's to do something about it, and talking about it is the first step.
It's definitely not helping if you are part of the problem as well by using it yourself.
Honestly, once when my wife and I got into an argument, she used that phrase on me - knowing I'm trans. I think she was trying to hurt me at the time - she apologised, but damn it stung. :'(
Simply echoing what others are saying, the only thing needed to be a man is to know that you're a man. Not by acting masculine, courageous or anything else. Just by knowing that you're a man.
Personally I do say it, but to myself. Because I find that often the only way to motivate me is for me to beast myself, and that works for me. I'm not going to subject anyone else into fitting into the same mold as me because I know that everyone is different.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 07, 2014, 04:58:07 PM
The way to fix problems is not to say "well it's gonna happen because society is like that, so I should just accept it". It's to do something about it, and talking about it is the first step.
It's definitely not helping if you are part of the problem as well by using it yourself.
Its just words and it motivates me like Alex said what is wrong with saying man up or grow some of us do need to do that. Sone things are just tookin so serious. And the big thing I noticed was that the ones who don't like it are the ones who are not that masculine
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 05:05:28 PM
Its just words and it motivates me like Alex said what is wrong with saying man up or grow some of us do need to do that. Sone things are just tookin so serious. And the big thing I noticed was that the ones who don't like it are the ones who are not that masculine
Maybe I didn't say it very well, but I say it to myself, not to others. And sometimes it bothers when others say it to me, it all depends on what the sentiment is behind it and who it's coming from.
Quote from: lxndr on March 07, 2014, 05:12:52 PM
Maybe I didn't say it very well, but I say it to myself, not to others. And sometimes it bothers when others say it to me, it all depends on what the sentiment is behind it and who it's coming from.
Well thats what I said earlier is it depends on why it is being said because its not always being said to put someone down it could bring someone up depending on the contex.
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 05:05:28 PM
And the big thing I noticed was that the ones who don't like it don't fit the masculine role in some areas
Ummm yeah, that's the point. Maybe you WANT to fit the masculine stereotypes. But guess what? The world doesn't (or shouldn't, I should say) revolve around you and other guys that do or want to fit the masculine stereotypes.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 07, 2014, 05:38:22 PM
Ummm yeah, that's the point. Maybe you WANT to fit the masculine stereotypes. But guess what? The world doesn't (or shouldn't, I should say) revolve around you and other guys that do or want to fit the masculine stereotypes.
I already fit them but its natural don't get upset with me, Your right the world doesn't revolve around or anyone elses or yours its a free country and a free will so don't get mad because I choose to use the words "man up" or "Grow some" quit taking everything to heart not everything is meant to be insulting.
Yes, boss.
Hi friends :police:
Let's not be pickin' fights here
Personally, I don't care for the term and find it and a few other terms and phrases to be disrespectful and demeaning
I think I mostly use it as an ironic term, but I do try to not use it. I always found the term irritating when it was used in a serious context. It reminds me of my mother always telling me "be a lady!"
I don't think it has anything to do with how masculine the guy is either. My father, the ex Air Force military man, hates the phrase. I've never heard him use it toward any of my brothers despite how much of a jerk he can be. Like my old man, I usually just say "act like an adult" "be the bigger person"and the like depending on the situation and who I'm talking to.
Yes, if ever a phrase was loaded with gender preconceptions it's that one. I don't think it has ever been said to me (being over six foot tall generally means not being called names) but I think I was generally regarded as a "sissy"...for being sensitive, for actually being in touch with my emotions, for not being afraid to cry...
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 07, 2014, 04:16:06 PM
There is a video about "man up" that I came across some time ago. I found it very moving and extremely powerful. It's one of those things that makes me think a lot about masculinity.
Love it, thank you!
It has a sexist implication that I don't care for.
I don't feel anything necessarily positive or negative about it, but it does give me a strong urge to break out into song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64)
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 05:46:33 PM
I already fit them but its natural don't get upset with me, Your right the world doesn't revolve around or anyone elses or yours its a free country and a free will so don't get mad because I choose to use the words "man up" or "Grow some" quit taking everything to heart not everything is meant to be insulting.
Are you sure you fit masculine sterotypes, Brandon? Do you really know what they are? Do you see the way boys are expected to act, look, speak? Society constantly tells males that they need to be tall, muscular, and good with their hands. It's expected that a man knows how to change a tire, use a grill, hold a high paying job, never cry, and be strong both physically and emotionally.
I agree that a lot of people take words to heart far too often, especially in this day and age where tough skin is a rairty, but the phrase man up has been described as harmful by men who were born biologically male and have felt this statement hurt them throughout life.
Kia Ora,
"Man up" ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU
"Up man" seems more appropriate ;) ;D
Metta Anatta :)
Quote from: Ayden on March 07, 2014, 06:20:46 PM
Like my old man, I usually just say "act like an adult"
This is usually what I think of when I think of the phrase "man up." Like, act like an adult male instead of a young boy, be mature, etc. But I like "act like an adult" because it's more gender neutral and has less negative connotations.
Quote from: timbuck2 on March 07, 2014, 08:07:44 PM
Do you really know what they are? Do you see the way boys are expected to act, look, speak? Society constantly tells males that they need to be tall, muscular, and good with their hands. It's expected that a man knows how to change a tire, use a grill, hold a high paying job, never cry, and be strong both physically and emotionally.
"Man up" is also so culturally relative. Being a man in different countries means different things. I never realized how different it was until I started teaching English to 20-40 year old men in Japan. It can and has in the past been a very hurtful comment that basically invalidates a lot of what makes a person who they are.
In a similar vein, can we never say "A real man is ___" or anything like that? Personally, I don't mind "man up," but it bugs me when people say a real man isn't a real man because he doesn't fit into what they want him to be. Same with "real women."
Quote from: timbuck2 on March 07, 2014, 08:07:44 PM
Are you sure you fit masculine sterotypes, Brandon? Do you really know what they are? Do you see the way boys are expected to act, look, speak? Society constantly tells males that they need to be tall, muscular, and good with their hands. It's expected that a man knows how to change a tire, use a grill, hold a high paying job, never cry, and be strong both physically and emotionally.
I agree that a lot of people take words to heart far too often, especially in this day and age where tough skin is a rairty, but the phrase man up has been described as harmful by men who were born biologically male and have felt this statement hurt them throughout life.
Yes because I've pretty much learned all that from my father, Yes I know how to change a tire, Yes I'm good with my hands, Yes I know how to use a grill, Yes I can hold up a Job may not be that tall but I am muscular, And I can't even cry or else ill get called th B word or P word that's why I hold stuff in because men arent taught to cry and yes to the last part.
Quote from: timbuck2 on March 07, 2014, 08:07:44 PM
Are you sure you fit masculine sterotypes, Brandon? Do you really know what they are? Do you see the way boys are expected to act, look, speak? Society constantly tells males that they need to be tall, muscular, and good with their hands. It's expected that a man knows how to change a tire, use a grill, hold a high paying job, never cry, and be strong both physically and emotionally.
I agree that a lot of people take words to heart far too often, especially in this day and age where tough skin is a rairty, but the phrase man up has been described as harmful by men who were born biologically male and have felt this statement hurt them throughout life.
And I am a guy so why wouldn't I know the expectations of being a man thats stupid I'm treated the exact same way.
Not crying because people will call you names isn't emotionally strong. Not giving a crap if people call you names because your sense of self worth is not reliant on other people is emotionally strong.
But then, I've heard a lot of contradictory things about being the "man" stereotype. I mean, the stereotype is that men are strong right? But then that same stereotype also says we need to run from problems like cowards instead of facing them, dealing with them, and using them to grow stronger.
Quote from: Edge on March 08, 2014, 09:23:18 AM
Not crying because people will call you names isn't emotionally strong. Not giving a crap if people call you names because your sense of self worth is not reliant on other people is emotionally strong.
But then, I've heard a lot of contradictory things about being the "man" stereotype. I mean, the stereotype is that men are strong right? But then that same stereotype also says we need to run from problems like cowards instead of facing them, dealing with them, and using them to grow stronger.
Well Timbuck 2 said it not me I agree with you but that's how society is.
Society can "man up." (By which I mean get over itself.)
Quote from: Edge on March 08, 2014, 09:30:23 AM
Society can "man up." (By which I mean get over itself.)
That's what I mean when I say it.
Yeah. I think maybe what ends up being the problem with the phrase "man up" (aside from the obvious problem of no one ever says "woman up") is that different people use it in different ways and many people have history with it being used in a hurtful way.
Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 03:54:36 PM
Wheather you like it or not if your a man you have to handle your buisness like one.
But women aren't expected to handle their business? This is part of the problem with why women aren't respected. There isn't the same expectation on them to handle THEIR business just as any other adult, man or woman. Men are supposed to "handle business" for everyone. I think we're all supposed to step up once we're adults. Maybe the expression "grow up" is better because it isn't gendered.
Quote from: Edge on March 08, 2014, 07:48:25 AM
In a similar vein, can we never say "A real man is ___" or anything like that?
You saw my diagram in the OP, right? :)
Quote from: dalebert on March 08, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
Maybe the expression "grow up" is better because it isn't gendered.
The problem with "grow up" is it is still demeaning. Then again, if you're saying that to someone, the point usually is to be demeaning.
Quote from: dalebert on March 08, 2014, 10:41:34 AMYou saw my diagram in the OP, right? :)
Oh right. I like that diagram.
Quote from: dalebert on March 08, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
But women aren't expected to handle their business? This is part of the problem with why women aren't respected. There isn't the same expectation on them to handle THEIR business just as any other adult, man or woman. Men are supposed to "handle business" for everyone. I think we're all supposed to step up once we're adults. Maybe the expression "grow up" is better because it isn't gendered.
You saw my diagram in the OP, right? :)
Thats why I said if your a man handle your buisness like one otherwise I would of said handle your buisness like a woman if your a woman.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 11:30:18 AM
Thats why I said if your a man handle your buisness like one otherwise I would of said handle your buisness like a woman if your a woman.
And what I was saying is that by saying that, you are implying that there is a gendered way to handle business. There's isn't. Yes, society seems to favor the idea that there is, and that's the issue at hand here.
Sorry to intrude here, but I have a lot of disdain for that phrase. Growing up as a "boy", that phrase would often get thrown my way, usually by my dad. It always hurt me and made me feel like a bad person because I couldn't be what others expected me to be, especially family. Now, it's obvious why this phrase would be hurtful to a transwoman during her upbringing, but I feel like it can equally hurt men. It's diminishing their masculinity and treating them like they are lesser in some way. That's not a nice thing to do. Sure, people can joke around and say it, but it seems like that phrase is often said with disgust and hostility or it's used in the spirit of criticizing/reprimanding. That's why I don't care for it.
How are you intruding? You are a Susan's member, right? Which means you're not intruding when you make a post somewhere. I don't understand this mentality that men wouldn't want a woman's opinion or vice versa
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 08:37:26 AM
Yes because I've pretty much learned all that from my father, Yes I know how to change a tire, Yes I'm good with my hands, Yes I know how to use a grill, Yes I can hold up a Job may not be that tall but I am muscular, And I can't even cry or else ill get called th B word or P word that's why I hold stuff in because men arent taught to cry and yes to the last part.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 09:17:37 AM
And I am a guy so why wouldn't I know the expectations of being a man thats stupid I'm treated the exact same way.
I know men who don't act in the way that you seem to think that a man should act. These are cis men. Does that mean that they're actually just closeted trans women? No, it just means that they know that they don't have to be able to change tires and be constantly macho to be men. Is a man with muscular atrophy not a man because they're not muscular? Is a male artist not a man because they'd prefer to practice their painting than build motorbikes? Is a man with poor hand-eye co-ordination not a man because they're not good with their hands?
You don't have to act a certain way to be a man. The requirement of being a man is to have an innate sense that you're a man.
I live and work in a very male dominated, macho environment, railway engineering. Even here I see a whole variety of different men, but not one that isn't a man because of their skills, body or hobbies.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 08, 2014, 11:43:50 AM
And what I was saying is that by saying that, you are implying that there is a gendered way to handle business. There's isn't. Yes, society seems to favor the idea that there is, and that's the issue at hand here.
In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.
Quote from: lxndr on March 08, 2014, 12:52:31 PM
I know men who don't act in the way that you seem to think that a man should act. These are cis men. Does that mean that they're actually just closeted trans women? No, it just means that they know that they don't have to be able to change tires and be constantly macho to be men. Is a man with muscular atrophy not a man because they're not muscular? Is a male artist not a man because they'd prefer to practice their painting than build motorbikes? Is a man with poor hand-eye co-ordination not a man because they're not good with their hands?
You don't have to act a certain way to be a man. The requirement of being a man is to have an innate sense that you're a man.
I live and work in a very male dominated, macho environment, railway engineering. Even here I see a whole variety of different men, but not one that isn't a man because of their skills, body or hobbies.
Well I'm sorry but I do believe there is a certain way a man is suppose to act but I am ok with the fact that not everyone fits that role as I am not a judgemental person.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.
False
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
Well I'm sorry but I do believe there is a certain way a man is suppose to act but I am ok with the fact that not everyone fits that role as I am not a judgemental person.
Sexist and seemingly proud of it but claiming to not be a judgemental person....hmmmm
You can't just say sorry and claim to not be a judgemental person and then say something offensive and judgemental and it's all okay.
i don't think a man has to provide...my mom was a single mom and provided...my old man was long gone...far as i'm concerned your a man long as your there for your family, whether your the bread winner or not
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 08, 2014, 01:03:21 PM
Sexist and seemingly proud of it but claiming to not be a judgemental person....hmmmm
I am not sexist or judgemental you just get offended by anyone who doesn't agree with you.
Quote from: Ryan55 on March 08, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
i don't think a man has to provide...my mom was a single mom and provided...my old man was long gone...far as i'm concerned your a man long as your there for your family, whether your the bread winner or not
No I meant when both of your parents are in the house as a man were suppose to provide for our wives. If your straight
Woah guys... not everyone has to be a free spirit on conforming or not conforming to societal norms of what is deemed as "acting like a man" or not. (just so it can be noted I have a preference in non-gender conforming friends and acquaintances. I do not believe people have to "act like a man" to be a man. To me its like saying "act your age" I hated that when I was a kid because I was acting my age because I was the age I was when I was acting that way. If you are a man anything you do is "acting like a man" but thats just my personal beliefs on that matter)
He (Brandon) does not seem to be trying to say that someone who doesn't "act like a man" according to societal norms is not a man. He is just trying to say that there are certainly parameters of "manliness" that society expects of men. He is someone who is trying to live up to those traits, and is okay with them being there. He has clearly said that he is cool with men who do not "act like men" according to these standards. He may be rigid minded and seemingly a couple decades behind the world when it comes to these societal expectations (which I imagine may loosen with time), but he is not being judgmental by saying how he feels on this issue.
If he said "if you don't prescribe to the definition of manliness that I hold to be true for myself that you are not deserving of the title of 'man'" then yea.. He'd be a big douche, but that is not what is happening here. You guys are getting really super offended when he is really not trying to insult you personally at all.
(though he may need a little help here and there on the subject of diplomatic wording.)
To all the guys here that haven't been told this or have no issue with it, consider there is a man that identifies as such, but is constantly bullied because he is freer with himself. Maybe he is gay or a little feminine or something. In any case, he is a man and proud of it. Imagine he gets bullied all the time for not being the ideal male and told he needs to man up. How does that make you feel? Wouldn't you feel bad for him? Isn't that wrong for someone to belittle his gender identity just because he doesn't fit the standard? I think everyone of us should appreciate the diversity of gender expression given our own situations. Everyone should be free to be themselves without judgement or hate as long as they don't harm another person. Just my take.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 08, 2014, 12:22:47 PM
How are you intruding? You are a Susan's member, right? Which means you're not intruding when you make a post somewhere. I don't understand this mentality that men wouldn't want a woman's opinion or vice versa
Well, I don't have the same experience that men have, so I'm not always really the best person to chime in here. Sometimes I do because of my upbringing and in the case of being told "man up" that applies. I agree, though, that we should be able to interact with each other as much as possible.
Quote from: GnomeKid on March 08, 2014, 01:22:51 PM
Woah guys... not everyone has to be a free spirit on conforming or not conforming to societal norms of what is deemed as "acting like a man" or not. (just so it can be noted I have a preference in non-gender conforming friends and acquaintances. I do not believe people have to "act like a man" to be a man. To me its like saying "act your age" I hated that when I was a kid because I was acting my age because I was the age I was when I was acting that way. If you are a man anything you do is "acting like a man" but thats just my personal beliefs on that matter)
He (Brandon) does not seem to be trying to say that someone who doesn't "act like a man" according to societal norms is not a man. He is just trying to say that there are certainly parameters of "manliness" that society expects of men. He is someone who is trying to live up to those traits, and is okay with them being there. He has clearly said that he is cool with men who do not "act like men" according to these standards. He may be rigid minded and seemingly a couple decades behind the world when it comes to these societal expectations (which I imagine may loosen with time), but he is not being judgmental by saying how he feels on this issue.
If he said "if you don't prescribe to the definition of manliness that I hold to be true for myself that you are not deserving of the title of 'man'" then yea.. He'd be a big douche, but that is not what is happening here. You guys are getting really super offended when he is really not trying to insult you personally at all.
(though he may need a little help here and there on the subject of diplomatic wording.)
Exactly I wasn't trying to be insulting at all.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 08:37:26 AM
Yes because I've pretty much learned all that from my father, Yes I know how to change a tire, Yes I'm good with my hands, Yes I know how to use a grill, Yes I can hold up a Job may not be that tall but I am muscular, And I can't even cry or else ill get called th B word or P word that's why I hold stuff in because men arent taught to cry and yes to the last part.
I've got a harsh reality for you, by societal standards you don't fit the stereotypes of a man. Tons of women can change do all of the things a man can...but they're not expected of them.
People on here want to always be nice to you and understanding but they need to give you the cold hard truth: you're not as manly as you think you are! You're certainly not muscular in a manly way. You have the body of a female--rounded shoulders, breast, a hairless face, small hands. You identify as male, you are transitioning to become the way you feel inside, but right now you aren't a male in society. Sorry if that hurts some feelings but this kid needs to hear the truth.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 09:17:37 AM
And I am a guy so why wouldn't I know the expectations of being a man thats stupid I'm treated the exact same way.
Brandon, you weren't raised as a boy to become a man. You can say whatever you want but you've never been treated the exact same way and you will never know what it's like to grow up having the same experiences that a boy does. Again, sorry, but when your parents stamped 'Female' on your birth certificate thats the way they raised you. You've said on here before that your family is unsupportive.
You know what's a sure sign of a man? A sure sign of an adult? Taking responsibilty and owning up to ones own faults.
Quote from: timbuck2 on March 08, 2014, 02:10:55 PM
I've got a harsh reality for you, by societal standards you don't fit the stereotypes of a man. Tons of women can change do all of the things a man can...but they're not expected of them.
People on here want to always be nice to you and understanding but they need to give you the cold hard truth: you're not as manly as you think you are! You're certainly not muscular in a manly way. You have the body of a female--rounded shoulders, breast, a hairless face, small hands. You identify as male, you are transitioning to become the way you feel inside, but right now you aren't a male in society. Sorry if that hurts some feelings but this kid needs to hear the truth.
Brandon, you weren't raised as a boy to become a man. You can say whatever you want but you've never been treated the exact same way and you will never know what it's like to grow up having the same experiences that a boy does. Again, sorry, but when your parents stamped 'Female' on your birth certificate thats the way they raised you. You've said on here before that your family is unsupportive.
You know what's a sure sign of a man? A sure sign of an adult? Taking responsibilty and owning up to ones own faults.
Actually I'm very hairy and yes I have hair on my face yes I'm very built my chest is not that big nor is my face that damn round, My hands are not small nor are my feet have you met me in person no, And I was never forced to play the female role in my house I have alot more freedom my dad treats me exactly like his son so you sound real dumb and yes I am treated the exact same way you are not with me 24/7 enough to know this.
Sorry guys. This was a good topic, but the bickering has got to stop.
I don't think Brandon was trying to be offensive with his statement about men as the provider. If I went out and broached the subject around my neighborhood, most (male and female) would probably agree and maybe even start ranting on the subject. In fact, a very good friend of mine's wife just took their son and left him. Because he lost his job and has had no luck finding a replacement. She says he's not fulfilling his husbandly duty and she's taking their child overseas. A lot of people do feel this way, right or wrong. A lot of people grew up this way. I don't think it's right, but most people are raised this way.
So rather than jumping on Brandon or anyone who mentions that view, explaining the problems with that view might go a long way. Being trans doesn't mean we automatically shed the gender views and expectations we grew up with. It took me awhile and I'm still working on it.
Okay, I'm unlocking but I expect the conversation to be civil or penalties will be issued. We can have a disagreement without being nasty to each other.
Quote from: Edge on March 07, 2014, 07:58:43 PM
I don't feel anything necessarily positive or negative about it, but it does give me a strong urge to break out into song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64)
I have a new love for Mulan after coming out.
Quote from: Ryan55 on March 08, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
i don't think a man has to provide...my mom was a single mom and provided...my old man was long gone...far as i'm concerned your a man long as your there for your family, whether your the bread winner or not
Agreed! I was and still am raised by a single mother. My father is alive and well but he lives on the other side of the city and doesn't provide much. It's all been my mother buying me clothes, food and other things throughout my life.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 01:20:39 PM
No I meant when both of your parents are in the house as a man were suppose to provide for our wives. If your straight
This is an expectation in western societies for sure. But I don't think it's a realistic one anymore. In the US right now it's so hard to have just one provider. I know my husband I couldn't make it on one income even when he had an excellent job at our university. Women haven't been forced into the role of housemaid for years, and I think that is much preferable. We will never get equality if we say that one gender is supposed to do XYZ.
I know a lot of women, regardless of their anatomy who are proud providers. There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home father while the wife works if she has a career she is invested in or loves. There is nothing wrong with both partners working to ensure the success of their family.
In other cultures, the women are the providers. It doesn't make the men any less men.
I'm not trying to argue at all. I'm simply pointing out that there isn't a "right way" to be a man. Just like there isn't a "right way" to be a woman. If there was, about every person I know is "wrong".
Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 11:57:15 AM
Sorry to intrude here, but I have a lot of disdain for that phrase. Growing up as a "boy", that phrase would often get thrown my way, usually by my dad. It always hurt me and made me feel like a bad person because I couldn't be what others expected me to be, especially family. Now, it's obvious why this phrase would be hurtful to a transwoman during her upbringing, but I feel like it can equally hurt men. It's diminishing their masculinity and treating them like they are lesser in some way. That's not a nice thing to do. Sure, people can joke around and say it, but it seems like that phrase is often said with disgust and hostility or it's used in the spirit of criticizing/reprimanding. That's why I don't care for it.
I don't actually think that as trans guys we were socialized with this issue. OTOH, it is in the culture, so to speak. And I see people told this on this forum--i.e. scared of injecting just "man up".
Obviously being told to "be a man" when you are a transwoman would be hurtful (but also to gay guys and guys who are, for lack of a better word, effeminate).
There is not a corresponding word for being socialized as girls. The term "be a lady" is a kind of superficial thing that a lot of us were stuck with. But usually has to do with appearance and manners and not with your essence as a person.
I feel the term "man up" or "be a man' is usually kind of violent-- "don't feel your feelings", "don't pay attention to what's in your head", "don't be sensitive", etc. I think it leads to violence against women and children and sometimes to self. It's generally a negative thing, and I really am against using it, applying it to myself, or my brothers (I mean by that other trans guys).
I don't see any useful thing to it at all.
--Jay
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.
Okay....so what if there is only a single mother in the picture? Is she supposed to just "screw it" and not provide for her child?
Think about it, dude.
Quote from: aleon515 on March 08, 2014, 06:14:02 PM
There is not a corresponding word for being socialized as girls. The term "be a lady" is a kind of superficial thing that a lot of us were stuck with. But usually has to do with appearance and manners and not with your essence as a person.
--Jay
Thats interesting, Jay. If you don't mind my asking, where are from? I ask because "be a lady" was used a lot like "man up" in my house. I was told that for about everything. But, my family has southern belles, so it may be a regional thing. When I moved to Alaska it was a huge relief. Man or woman, we all wore bunny boots, carharts and looked like lumberjacks. :D There wasn't a real separation in how people dressed or acted, some just had smaller feet and bigger hips.
Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.
Actually, this has been a social model since pre-history.
When you consider that in Brandon's African-American community, over 70% of all births are out of wedlock, and fewer that 25% of households have an adult male in it, taking individual responsibility is something that should be encouraged.
Now, this is not to say women should not also be providers. For a while, when the kids were young, I was the sole provider in the family. It was a role for which I was socialized not that long ago. It is still one that is pervasive within our society. My wife and I worked, scrimped, saved, clothed, fed, and kept a roof over our family. It is about accepting responsibility.
Is the male-provider model now dated? I would say it is, but perhaps more out of necessity. Not because it is sexist or misogynistic.
Edit: Interesting article. Check it out.
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/06/20/the-5-switches-of-manliness-provide/
Quote from: Ayden on March 08, 2014, 08:45:29 PM
Thats interesting, Jay. If you don't mind my asking, where are from? I ask because "be a lady" was used a lot like "man up" in my house. I was told that for about everything. But, my family has southern belles, so it may be a regional thing. When I moved to Alaska it was a huge relief. Man or woman, we all wore bunny boots, carharts and looked like lumberjacks. :D There wasn't a real separation in how people dressed or acted, some just had smaller feet and bigger hips.
That's probably true. My mom was from the south, but I think she might have been upset a lot by the "be a lady" thing from her own childhood (I think she was abused, by our standards). I lived in the midwest. I was told that I wasn't sufficiently feminine, but it was not used in quite the same way that "man up" or "be a man" were.
@Jamie- I think the male provider model is probably way out of date, given both men and women provide for families where more often women "provide" at a higher rate than they used to. I put that in quotes, given that just because work might not be paid, doesn't mean it is worthless. Taking care of very young children, I don't need to remind people, is a taxing job.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on March 08, 2014, 09:42:20 PM
That's probably true. My mom was from the south, but I think she might have been upset a lot by the "be a lady" thing from her own childhood (I think she was abused, by our standards). I lived in the midwest. I was told that I wasn't sufficiently feminine, but it was not used in quite the same way that "man up" or "be a man" were.
@Jamie- I think the male provider model is probably way out of date, given both men and women provide for families where more often women "provide" at a higher rate than they used to. I put that in quotes, given that just because work might not be paid, doesn't mean it is worthless. Taking care of very young children, I don't need to remind people, is a taxing job.
--Jay
Jay: thanks for sharing. I spent very little time in the Midwest but I get the impression that its more relaxed as far as gender norms than the south. My mother was the same in that she didnt like the phrase "be a lady". I was raised partly by my grandparents when I was really young and I know that it was an abusive comment to a lot of young girls.
Jamie: I think you make an interesting point, but I also agree with Jay here.
For me I think the world has moved past the hunter/gather, mans world mindset. Women have always had work but now it is becoming more common that they work outside the home as well as receive payment for the work they do. It is becoming necessary for both parents to work. It's nice when one parent can be home with young kids, but it isn't always realistic nowadays.
Economically it is hard for families and for countries, frankly. Here in Japan 60% of women, 40% of whom have college education, are housewives. It's one of the things that has put Japan in tough economic times. I'm not saying that it's their fault, but the idea of man being the provider has damaged a lot of families here. I have students who don't even know their fathers because they work 14 hour days. Different groups of people have different challenges of course, but how does it help any family anywhere to put all the pressure on one person because they are a man?
Outside of economics, a lot of women I know want the freedom of being the provider. For years, man being the provider was used to keep women in "their place". I was told to marry a man and let him support me, like a lot of girls my age. It always seemed backwards to me. A lot of my female friends older and younger hated the idea of being provided for when they were perfectly able to do the same for themselves and their families.
I'm not attacking, please don't misunderstand. This is an issue with a lot of gray and no black and white. It's more an exercise in thinking for me. I don't get to dissect these ideas outside of Susan's or with my husband.
Speaking of men and women's roles, someone once told me that raising kids required more emotion and not much logic and physical strength. Hopefully, why such a statement is ludicrous is obvious.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
To all the guys here that haven't been told this or have no issue with it, consider there is a man that identifies as such, but is constantly bullied because he is freer with himself. Maybe he is gay or a little feminine or something. In any case, he is a man and proud of it. Imagine he gets bullied all the time for not being the ideal male and told he needs to man up. How does that make you feel? Wouldn't you feel bad for him? Isn't that wrong for someone to belittle his gender identity just because he doesn't fit the standard? I think everyone of us should appreciate the diversity of gender expression given our own situations. Everyone should be free to be themselves without judgement or hate as long as they don't harm another person. Just my take.
I can only speak for myself. I have no issue with "be a man" because I have trouble taking it seriously.
However, phrases like "man up" and "grow up" bother me because they suggest that the person is deficient in some way. "Be a man" tells a guy to be what he already is. "Man up" and "grow up" tells a person that they aren't already.
Ironically, I usually hear about how "real men" aren't like me from people who say it's ok to be effeminate and who expect me to be pleased when they tell me "real men" don't have some of the stereotypically masculine traits I have.
I don't disagree with either you or Jay. Times are changing.
I just felt the Brandon's post needed the proper context. The smites were excessive, IMHO. Brandon, coming from a single parent household, is well aware that women are providers in every sense of the word.
The idea that men in his community need to step up to the plate is topical and important. Take a listen sometime to what Bill Cosby has to say on the point.
Quote from: Jamie D on March 08, 2014, 11:45:03 PM
I don't disagree with either you or Jay. Times are changing.
I just felt the Brandon's post needed the proper context. The smites were excessive, IMHO. Brandon, coming from a single parent household, is well aware that women are providers in every sense of the word.
The idea that men in his community need to step up to the plate is topical and important. Take a listen sometime to what Bill Cosby has to say on the point.
Thanks for clarifying. I think I misunderstood because I hadn't read all of Brandon's posts. As a history guy I should know better than to research before I comment!
Bill Cosby is a very good role model I think. I am a fan and I think he has a lot to contribute. The black community has a lot of difficulty that I can only imagine.
Personally, I am going to use the phrase "man up" and other related phrases in my life and I don't mind if those phrases are used on me because I find them motivating. If I tell someone that and they get offended then I won't say that to them again out of respect. In my opinion, I think it comes down to just gauging the situation and the people involved.
On another note, I too think that men should be the providers of the home. Go ahead call me sexist and misogynistic. ;)
However, I do realize that in this economy, having the man being the sole provider would almost be impossible, and then there are single mothers, but in an ideal situation, I believe a woman shouldn't have to work if they don't want to.
I had a fairly gender neutral childhood in a lot of ways esp. for someone raised in the 50s-60s and compared with a lot of my friends and even younger trans guys. For instance, I played with all kinds of toys (blocks, toy cars, dolls, etc. I played with everything) and was not expected to stay clean and so on. However, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have felt what was going on in the culture, so to speak. And yes, Ayden, I think things were more relaxed in the midwest generally.
I feel guys can do whatever they want to do, and in some cases being a stay at home dad (where that makes sense to the family and individual), he should do this and not feel guilty about this. I don't think single income homes are much of a thing in the 21st C, and most families can't really get by on one income.
I don't know how these particular terms are "motivating". Shaming maybe, if you are motivated by that kind of emotion. Do you mean that you would actually do something or change your behavior in some way if those terms were used on you? I am pretty sure they would have a negative impact on me in all possible ways.
Note: I don't feel it is my place to say what I think black people should do as it is out of my experience. I think there are some things Brandon talks about which may be cultural but he is also in a vastly different generation. Being trans only allows me to relate so far.
--Jay
Quote from: Edge on March 08, 2014, 11:39:55 PM
Speaking of men and women's roles, someone once told me that raising kids required more emotion and not much logic and physical strength. Hopefully, why such a statement is ludicrous is obvious.
I can only speak for myself. I have no issue with "be a man" because I have trouble taking it seriously.
However, phrases like "man up" and "grow up" bother me because they suggest that the person is deficient in some way. "Be a man" tells a guy to be what he already is. "Man up" and "grow up" tells a person that they aren't already.
Ironically, I usually hear about how "real men" aren't like me from people who say it's ok to be effeminate and who expect me to be pleased when they tell me "real men" don't have some of the stereotypically masculine traits I have.
Exactly, the whole phrase is meant to be ridiculing and insulting. I've never heard man up in a kind way, but I'm sure it can be used somewhat jokingly between friends. However, usually it's a way to say that you aren't a man or lesser in some way. A way to show disaproval of one's masculinity or lack thereof. I don't know. The phrase just brings up bad memories from my past and reminds me what a disappointment I am to some. Also, I really hate macho attitudes because it reminds me of bullies and how they treat the "weaker" or the guys that differ from their rigid gender norms. In my eyes, a man should be secure enough in themselves without the need to belittle others. Not saying being masculine or macho is a bad thing, but when it's used to prove one's worth over another, then it becomes a problem. Just hope everyone considers this because those phrases have the potential to cause hurt feelings and upset people when used.
I can understand the motivation thing since I motivate myself a similar way, but when other people do it, it's been to tell me to change something I don't want to. One of my exes used "grow up" to tell me to stop calling my family out on their crap and just accept it. Yeah that was never going to happen.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 08:26:48 AMAlso, I really hate macho attitudes because it reminds me of bullies and how they treat the "weaker" or the guys that differ from their rigid gender norms.
I have no problem with macho guys, but many of the ones I've met were the kind who claimed to be big shots in a gang, connected to HA, blah blah blah. Needless to say, a lot of them got the crap beat out of them.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 08:26:48 AM
Exactly, the whole phrase is meant to be ridiculing and insulting. I've never heard man up in a kind way, but I'm sure it can be used somewhat jokingly between friends. However, usually it's a way to say that you aren't a man or lesser in some way. A way to show disaproval of one's masculinity or lack thereof. I don't know. The phrase just brings up bad memories from my past and reminds me what a disappointment I am to some. Also, I really hate macho attitudes because it reminds me of bullies and how they treat the "weaker" or the guys that differ from their rigid gender norms. In my eyes, a man should be secure enough in themselves without the need to belittle others. Not saying being masculine or macho is a bad thing, but when it's used to prove one's worth over another, then it becomes a problem. Just hope everyone considers this because those phrases have the potential to cause hurt feelings and upset people when used.
I just happen to disagree its not always meant to be ridiculing or insulting, It depends on the reason it's being said.
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
I just happen to disagree its not always meant to be ridiculing or insulting, It depends on the reason it's being said.
I agree that context is what's most important. It's just most of my experience with the word is that it's usually meant to either ridicule or express disappointment. Like I said, it can be used in a jocular manner or said between friends. But having grown up raised the wrong way, I've seen and heard a lot. Usually it's more a negative phrase than anything which is why I'm not a fan and think it should be avoided.
Quote from: Edge on March 09, 2014, 08:54:36 AM
I can understand the motivation thing since I motivate myself a similar way, but when other people do it, it's been to tell me to change something I don't want to. One of my exes used "grow up" to tell me to stop calling my family out on their crap and just accept it. Yeah that was never going to happen.I have no problem with macho guys, but many of the ones I've met were the kind who claimed to be big shots in a gang, connected to HA, blah blah blah. Needless to say, a lot of them got the crap beat out of them.
Yeah, I don't mind macho or masculine men either. It's just the ones that act as though they are superior or nasty are to their peers. Their individual mentality and behavior is what's most important. The difference between an athletic jock and agro macho bully I suppose.
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 09:50:37 AM
I just happen to disagree its not always meant to be ridiculing or insulting, It depends on the reason it's being said.
Surely the fact that a
lot of other people find it harmful is enough to think twice about using the phrase?
Quote from: lxndr on March 09, 2014, 12:20:31 PM
Surely the fact that a lot of other people find it harmful is enough to think twice about using the phrase?
No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.
The ability of humans to pass complex information by communication is what has allowed us to evolve. Words are very powerful, they convey meaning and we need to be careful of what meaning we wish to give.
Men and women have died because of misunderstanding of words.
Tragedies have happened over a misplaced comma. People have gone to their death because of poor sentences and misplaced context.
Be careful when we talk to each other, think about what we write and read what we have written to ensure we are not misunderstood.
Part of being a well rounded decent man or woman is making sure we convey out thoughts accurately.
Think of that before we make a statement. Try to see what others will understand by our statement; before we post it.
Please
Cindy
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.
The problem is that other people
do find it offensive/rude/harmful. You might not intend to do so, and you might not think that it's harmful, but the truth is that a lot of people do. Surely, if you're a decent person, you want to avoid hurting anyone, inadvertently or not. I can't forcing you to stop saying, I obviously can't, I'm asking you to perhaps think more carefully about the choice of words that you use to talk to others.
I'm not perfect, sometimes I find myself saying it, but after reading through this thread and finding the sheer number of people who have a problem with it, I think twice before saying it again to anyone else.
Wow, this topic exploded.
As someone who is studying in a social justice-oriented field, this phrase disheartens me.
I agree with those who say it isn't demeaning to men and it can often be used in a neutral or positive manner, but I do see it being demeaning to genders outside of cis males and to cultures outside of White America.
As previously stated, there are cultural norms that are expected to accompany the phrase "man up" or "be a man".
First, from a personal perspective, I will never fit into those stereotypes and if someone said this to me I would be offended. I am short and petite. I like cute things. I like fashion. I know nothing about cars or sports. I am still a man and I am comfortable with my masculinity.
This phrase is problematic for women or people who identify as genders other than "male". I read earlier that you could say "handle your business like woman" or "be a woman". Sure, you COULD say that, but the truth is that people don't say that. There is little recognition for women and other gender identities in our cultural phrases outside of being demeaned [calling someone a "bitch" or "pussy"]. Continuing to use "man up" is continuing to ignore the historically oppressed group.
I can only speak from an outside perspective, but this could also be offensive to male-identified people of other cultures. "Being a man" means different things in different parts of the world and calling someone out on their cultural differences is short-sighted at the very least.
Speech carries powerful psychological messages and is deeply ingrained in the culture it stems from. Changing speech to be more inclusive of different people is an important step to changing culture to be more inclusive.
I recognize everyone has freedom of speech and many people aren't malicious about it, but moving forward requires everyone to be an agent of change and put effort into their decisions about how to interact with the world. Our intentions are important, but they are not what the world sees. The uncomfortable truth is that we don't get to decide if others are offended by our words. The people you are speaking to get to decide if they are offended or not and imposing your own will on them helps no one.
The stereotype of "manly" is a self-contradiction. The are stereotyped accepting whatever abuse that comes from a hazing ritual to become a member of a group, but they're also supposed to be independent and "not take crap from nobody." Deer hunting is considered a "manly" activity, but it involves someone attacking like a coward rather than according to honor: giving the opponent equal footing by removing the element of surprise and making both sides fight bare-handed (never mind the honor issues of fighting an opponent that does not consent to battle). They are supposed to be slick salesmen and leaders with integrity. Reckless thrill-seeking can get themselves and others hurt or killed. Getting tossed into the prison system serves to make them ineffectual and unable to "provide" for themselves, much less anyone else. At some point, we have to acknowledge that "manly" lacks a clear real meaning that a person can live up to -- never mind whether "manliness" is a good thing in the first place.
It's a rubbish term. Instead of telling people to "be men" (which is astonishingly told to boys, who lack the age requirement to be "men" anyway, as illustrated in the first post), we should tell them to "be good people." Tell people exactly what they're supposed to hear. They don't need a stereotype -- they need good values. If the "right" thing to do is to perform some stereotypically-manly objective, you can offer lines like "tough it out," "stick with it," "deal with it," "fall down 7 times, get up 8." Amazingly, they'll work with women and children, too. People respond more positively and persistently with directions than insults (especially when those messages are internalized), so there's no reason to ever settle for something sloppy and ineffectual like "man up."
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.
It doesn't matter if YOU don't mean to be rude if it's still negatively affecting people. The problem is it does harm people. Not everyone is thick skinned and even those who are often have things that bother them immensely.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
I agree that context is what's most important. It's just most of my experience with the word is that it's usually meant to either ridicule or express disappointment. Like I said, it can be used in a jocular manner or said between friends. But having grown up raised the wrong way, I've seen and heard a lot. Usually it's more a negative phrase than anything which is why I'm not a fan and think it should be avoided.
Another thing implied (not said) is that the term is insulting to women (though I think it is often said in a jocular way). It is misogyny as evidenced by the number of corresponding terms that demean women, often used along with it, "don't be a p***", "don't be a girl", etc. Being a man is put up as a superior thing over and above women which is the worst thing possible to be.
@Cindy-- the English language has thousands of terms for telling people to "get it together" essentially, without resorting to terms which are harmful.
Economist article on de-manning "man up": http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/political_correctness
--Jay
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.
Not to start a fight, again, but I would like to point out there's this thing called empathy and being polite. Sure I could smoke outside, but my friend is severely allergic to the smoke so that would be rude. So I won't. Same situation. You
could say it, or you can be a gentleman and try to make the world flow a little smoother.
Quote from: Frank on March 09, 2014, 05:14:00 PM
Not to start a fight, again, but I would like to point out there's this thing called empathy and being polite. Sure I could smoke outside, but my friend is severely allergic to the smoke so that would be rude. So I won't. Same situation. You could say it, or you can be a gentleman and try to make the world flow a little smoother.
I agree I wouldn't be rude about it I'm not like that.
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 05:21:25 PM
I agree I wouldn't be rude about it I'm not like that.
Yet you fail to see the problem in continuing to use a harmful phrase... Can you see what we're trying to say?
Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.
Ok, so you could say it to yourself. The thing is that usually language is used to communicate with other people who might feel it's a problem. Or you can have other people say it to you, I guess. NOt sure what it is exactly that you get out of it though.
--Jay
Everybody,
Let's not turn against each other. Not everyone will agree and that's okay. When I shared my take, I wanted people to understand the real pain that phrase caused me and to others that grew up receiving it. There is a reason why I don't care for it that goes beyond the word. To me, it's not the phrase itself at issue, but the attitude behind the phrase and the actions that often follow afterwards. In any case, I never intended for it to turn into a battle between each other. I don't think anyone here is advocating bullying even if we don't all agree. Last thing we should do is fight with each other.
Quote from: aleon515 on March 09, 2014, 02:39:01 PM
Another thing implied (not said) is that the term is insulting to women (though I think it is often said in a jocular way). It is misogyny as evidenced by the number of corresponding terms that demean women, often used along with it, "don't be a p***", "don't be a girl", etc. Being a man is put up as a superior thing over and above women which is the worst thing possible to be.
@Cindy-- the English language has thousands of terms for telling people to "get it together" essentially, without resorting to terms which are harmful.
Economist article on de-manning "man up": http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/political_correctness
--Jay
That's a good point. The fact that being a "fem" or "girly" guy is considered bad really is misogynistic in it's nature. Though, I'm sure tom boys and girls that don't meet the norms also face some judgement.
QuoteThough, I'm sure tom boys and girls that don't meet the norms also face some judgement.
They do. But then, fem women also face judgment for not being [insert code word for "manly"] enough for certain high-profile jobs. They're shafted either way, although probably not as badly as fem men (mileage varies -- men wearing dresses usually causes a ruckus, but a white-collar man taking time off to take care of a sick kid will usually be seen favorably, whereas a woman would either be seen as a burden or as merely doing what she's supposed to do). Being feminine, being gender-role nonconforming, and being a woman are all regarded as "liabilities" much more than the reverse.
I previously said this to myself as a motivator when I had to do something that made me uncomfortable like get a flu jab, face up to a mistake I made ect. Kind of a short form of "Get your s*** together, and do what you have to do.".
I hadn't thought until reading this thread about how hurtful/sexist that can be. I naturally have quite a stereotypically masculine personality and I'm proud of that, so it gave me strength to think - "You're a man, you can do this." but I guess I just realised how that implies that people who don't identify as manly men don't have the 'guts' to get over their fears or get things done, which is definitely not what I believe. Although I acknowledge that there are differences between men and women I don't think that either is lesser or that either should be constrained to a particular societal role.
I only came out to my husband last November but we've joked for years that I'm 'the man' because he loves children and is a really nurturing person (he's a carer for people with intellectual disabilities and training to be a social worker) whereas I bring home the bacon (side note: mmmm bacon) and handle all of the money, bills, insurance ect. but none of that made me more or less of a woman (though obviously I no longer identify that way), or him more or less of a man. Saying "Man up" as a metaphor for "get s*** done" now seems to invalidate that experience.
I think in a way this is similar to the mainstream use of the word "gay" to describe something that sucks (eg. wow, that math class was gay). I used to say this too when I was a teenager but I in no way at all meant to put down gay people in saying it, it was just what people said. Once I realised what I was doing, ie. making gay "synonymous with the lesser" as Macklemore puts it, I stopped. After thinking about it and reading how much this has effected everyone I'm putting this one to bed. "man up" will no longer be a phrase in my lexicon. I think I'm going to try and replace it with "get it together" instead.
Quote from: Nikotinic on March 10, 2014, 05:46:59 AM
I think I'm going to try and replace it with "get it together" instead.
I like that.
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire.\? This is our culture. "Man up" and deal with it.
Quote from: Oriah on March 10, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire. This is our culture. "Man up" and deal with it.
Yes, I think transition is a great thing, but I also don't embrace traditional masculinity (or femininity, of course). I am not entirely binary (and I think there are quite a number of people on susans who are not). But even if I were completely binary, the term "man up" is offensive to me. It has, imo, created men who are not in touch with their emotions and who are can be violent to themselves and others. An increasing number of parents are raising their sons to be in touch with their feelings but it might be a minority.
To me, I can chose which of our society I want to claim and which I don't. Anybody who transitions can decide those things, imo. Of course, if someone doesn't read me as quite "masculine enough" then that's possible.
You didn't want "man up" and neither do I.
--Jay
Quote from: Oriah on March 10, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire. This is our culture. "Man up" and deal with it.
I welcome a change. The world never stays the same and I like to think that we as humans have evolved a little over time. Traditional male/female roles are all rainbows and puppies for those who fall into those roles and enjoy them. However, an increasing number of people don't and/or don't want to. Everyone should live how they want, but I think as humans we can and should always question the world around us.
As far as it being "our culture"... I may be western and I am not ashamed in the least of being who I am. However, I don't want to ever come from a culture that cannot, does not and refuses to evolve. Culture is not a static thing; if it was we'd still be killing people over something as petty as pigmentation. Also, something may be cultural, but it can absolutely be wrong and hurtful. Ethics and culture do not go hand-in-hand, despite what some cultural relativists believe.
Quote from: Ayden on March 10, 2014, 11:07:05 PM
I welcome a change. The world never stays the same and I like to think that we as humans have evolved a little over time. Traditional male/female roles are all rainbows and puppies for those who fall into those roles and enjoy them. However, an increasing number of people don't and/or don't want to. Everyone should live how they want, but I think as humans we can and should always question the world around us.
As far as it being "our culture"... I may be western and I am not ashamed in the least of being who I am. However, I don't want to ever come from a culture that cannot, does not and refuses to evolve. Culture is not a static thing; if it was we'd still be killing people over something as petty as pigmentation. Also, something may be cultural, but it can absolutely be wrong and hurtful. Ethics and culture do not go hand-in-hand, despite what some cultural relativists believe.
Excellent post Ayden!! Of course I agree. Our culture needs a lot of changes, trans people are still killed, esp if they are trans women of color. Why would I want that cultural norm to continue? I have always believed social/cultural change is necessary. "Man up" seems to be a related norm to change.
I won't ever fit into what is a typical male anyway, not that I care much.
BTW, trans folks can be insensitively hit with these cultural norms and attitudes. I have an acquaintance who is a bit non-binary and somewhat tomboy, and she is a trans gal. All sorts of people have given her clothes and heels and so on suggesting she is not "female" enough. How is this healthy? Why do we need to keep these cultural norms which are not healthy? (If you want the heels thats' fine, not saying you shouldn't wear them.)
(BTW, there are times when one should "get it together"-- good suggestion!!)
--Jay
I can't remember ever having someone tell me to man up. The only things people have told me was, "You're so skinny. Eat more. Get bigger." lol.
I hadn't ever really thought of "man up" as being offensive. As some others mentioned earlier in the thread, if it was said to me, it would push me harder to do better. In all honesty, I am definitely not the person with the most empathy in the world. More like the complete opposite. I also don't get offended by ANYTHING, and as a result, I find it hard to see how something that doesn't offend me can offend someone else. While I still don't really get it on an emotional level, after reading 99% of this thread, I can see some ways it can be used that would offend those who do not fit the male stereotype. I have never used "man up" but the example mentioned by Nikotinic about using "gay" to say something sucked is something I got into a bad habit of using frequently. I see how it can be just as demeaning to tell someone to "man up", especially to women, even if not being said to them since it does imply that anything other than man (most people will only think "not man" = woman) is on a lower level.
At the same time though, I do think that it will take a long time for sexism like this to disappear. While it is important for people to start somewhere in going against saying things like "that's so gay" or "man up", I still think in the mean time, people are going to have to live with it. Through reading this thread I also think some people got a bit "too" offended. The reality is, people will continue to say "man up". Some will use it in a good way, others will use it in a demeaning way, but you're going to have to deal with it.
In my opinion, anyone telling someone to "man up" in a demeaning way probably has some issues of their own (as in insecurities) just like how so much homophobes turn out to be gay themselves. If someone says this to another person in a demeaning way, showing you don't care will show that you are sure enough of yourself not to give a rat's ass about their opinion on such a thing, and honestly, they probably won't say it to you again. If everyone did this, imagine? I never really had much of the woman's experience, so I can't really comment on that other than saying being successful in your career or whatever you want to do is the best way to show the world a woman can do anything.
tl;dr People are dumb.
@random dude--
Well in actuality no one has ever said this to me. I don't know anybody in my real life who would say this to me, but it could happen on line I suppose. I feel like it is a harmful concept/term (as are "be a man", etc.). Perhaps implying to some transguy that they are not quite masculine enough which could be harmful to them early transition, say. Or is used with a young boy who cries for some reason, and the dad says "man up". And so the kid learns that emotions like crying are not allowed for boys. I think it is useful to be aware of this sort of thing.
I don't see such phrases as motivating, though well if you are, you are a lot different than I am-- let's just say. I have seen it here. For instance, some guy says "I have a fear of needles" and someone has said, "man up". I can't see how this helps the guy with needle phobia. Or some guy is afraid of asking someone for a date and someone says "man up". I just don't see how this helps. Maybe some people are motivated by the recitation of certain key phrases, but it wouldn't work for me. I'm curious how this would work, I mean to be motivated by this, as I am obviously a lot different and might instead feel more rebellious.
Not everyone says these just because they are a jerk. Some people don't know what they are saying exactly. They are repeating memes that they have heard, just because they have heard them over and over, and don't really think that they could be toxic. I don't buy the notion that words don't hurt. In bullying usually words hurt a lot more than sticks and stones, to reverse the old saw. For instance, the people who say to people who are needle phobic, "well man up and just inject it already", aren't really thinking that what they say could hurt someone at worse and at best not be very helpful.
When some member here said "man up" related to the thread. I think it was "man up" and accept the culture as it is. I had a quite visceral reaction, which was a bit of anger. I think it might have been said in jest but that was my reaction, as I don't think one should accept the culture as it, but try and change things in so far as you can change your little piece of it. Though I agree society takes a long time to change, but if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
--Jay
Quote from: Oriah on March 10, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire.\? This is our culture. "Man up" and deal with it.
I acknowledge that men and women are different and I don't reject all traditional masculinity and femininity. This one reflects a disrespect for the free will and agency of women and their ability to be strong and independent people. At the same time, it challenges the identities of men who may not fit a traditional role. It's particularly judgmental. It's basically saying "You're not a real man" (per my very biased notions of what that means).
So I'm not on a rampage to smash all gender qualities by any means. I try pick my battles wisely.
I don't mean to cause trouble, but... Telling a masculine man to "man up" also tells him that one thinks he is not man enough already.
Although I may be biased because I've been told stuff like that from people who were really not in a position to and the hypocrisy pissed me off.
Quote from: dalebert on March 11, 2014, 10:47:49 AM
I acknowledge that men and women are different and I don't reject all traditional masculinity and femininity. This one reflects a disrespect for the free will and agency of women and their ability to be strong and independent people. At the same time, it challenges the identities of men who may not fit a traditional role. It's particularly judgmental. It's basically saying "You're not a real man" (per my very biased notions of what that means).
So I'm not on a rampage to smash all gender qualities by any means. I try pick my battles wisely.
I don't always pick them *wisely*. ;)
Nice short post though.
--Jay
Quote from: Edge on March 11, 2014, 01:27:47 PM
I don't mean to cause trouble, but... Telling a masculine man to "man up" also tells him that one thinks he is not man enough already.
Although I may be biased because I've been told stuff like that from people who were really not in a position to and the hypocrisy pissed me off.
(sorry.. sometimes I can't help but play devil's advocate) Not trying to start trouble either.. And this isn't intended as a personal response necessarily... I could have quoted many posts on this last page, but yours was short and made the points I was working off of.
This (the first half of your post) is exactly why it could be good motivation for a "manly man" who thinks of himself as such.
Combining a few posts here, but say from the needle phobia example.. So this "manly man" is afraid of needles. He has to go get blood drawn for some medical tests... pretty standard and nowadays considered pretty necessary in medical care. Hes telling his buddy that he doesn't want to go, and his buddy tells him to man up. This action motivates him to grit his teeth and go get blood drawn. Not saying it will completely negate his fear of needles, but it may help motivate him in facing them now and in the future. Same could work for any kind of phobia. I could even see it being appropriately used as one person telling another to man up and just put on those heels and go out on stage to do a drag show.
Social pressures motivate us in a lot of ways. Some good... Some bad.
What really rings true to me, though, is the second half of your statement. I know lots of people who have "trigger phrases" which set them off. Many of them have nothing at all to do with gender, and more about the circumstances under which they have been used against them. I imagine that many of the people who have posted negatively have had this phrase used against them in some manner. I noticed some of the more angry posts previously were from androgynous or transwomen posters who would naturally take offense to something they've probably heard hundreds of time and been haunted by in their youth by terrible parents and the like.
Not that its 100% the same (but I'd argue at least 50%), but I have a friend who gets her blood boiling over the word "bummer." A simple enough phrase that is intended to cause no offense at all, but I imagine at some point in her past someone used that phrase to her when she really cared about something that didn't so much work out. Sometimes it could be a phrase they heard during some traumatic event I won't bring up specifics, but we can all imagine such things.
In all honesty, though, before I read this thread I always thought "man up" meant more of "gather your forces" (like your army or whatnot) than being more of an actual man. I still sort of think of it as such. I'll probably still use it (though I'm not sure I actually have ever used it...). Then again I'm with randomdude5... I don't really get offended too badly by much nowadays... dependent upon context of course.
[also... I have to admit this thread has been a great source of procrastination from my current ongoing finals week...]
"Man up."
A dismissive command with a putrid whiff of misogyny.
I don't use it. I lose a tiny bit of respect for people who do.
Quote from: GnomeKid on March 11, 2014, 05:06:38 PM
This (the first half of your post) is exactly why it could be good motivation for a "manly man" who thinks of himself as such.
Combining a few posts here, but say from the needle phobia example.. So this "manly man" is afraid of needles. He has to go get blood drawn for some medical tests... pretty standard and nowadays considered pretty necessary in medical care. Hes telling his buddy that he doesn't want to go, and his buddy tells him to man up. This action motivates him to grit his teeth and go get blood drawn. Not saying it will completely negate his fear of needles, but it may help motivate him in facing them now and in the future. Same could work for any kind of phobia. I could even see it being appropriately used as one person telling another to man up and just put on those heels and go out on stage to do a drag show.
Social pressures motivate us in a lot of ways. Some good... Some bad.
What really rings true to me, though, is the second half of your statement. I know lots of people who have "trigger phrases" which set them off. Many of them have nothing at all to do with gender, and more about the circumstances under which they have been used against them. I imagine that many of the people who have posted negatively have had this phrase used against them in some manner. I noticed some of the more angry posts previously were from androgynous or transwomen posters who would naturally take offense to something they've probably heard hundreds of time and been haunted by in their youth by terrible parents and the like.
Not that its 100% the same (but I'd argue at least 50%), but I have a friend who gets her blood boiling over the word "bummer."...
In all honesty, though, before I read this thread I always thought "man up" meant more of "gather your forces" (like your army or whatnot) than being more of an actual man. I still sort of think of it as such. ...
[also... I have to admit this thread has been a great source of procrastination from my current ongoing finals week...]
Anyone with "needle phobia" who is motivated by "man up" doesn't actually have needle phobia. I agree that *some people* could be motivated by social pressure to do stuff. I would add that there are cis-men afraid of needles so this is not a "trans guy" thing in the slightest. Perhaps due to social pressures they might not talk about it much.
I agree that sometimes people have "issues" with certain phrases or types of phrases.
I think the fact that I am not entirely binary makes me sensitive to binary type terms like that. Though I don't think of myself as androgynous exactly. Its not hard to imagine how this phrase would seem particularly unpleasant/possibly triggering to trans women, who no doubt got the whole idea of being a man thrown in their faces.
Actually I think "manning up" forces might be the origin of this term which is a bit strange otherwise, if you think about it hard.
--Jay
Eh... Personally, if I had someone tell to "man up" to deal with something I was having trouble with, I'd be highly unpleasant to them. Not because of the phrase exactly, but to any dismissive response from people who judge me as weak and/or less.
I should point out that this is coming from someone who has a heck of a lot of masculine traits even though people tend to ignore them because they're the "bad" ones.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 07, 2014, 04:16:06 PM
There is a video about "man up" that I came across some time ago. I found it very moving and extremely powerful. It's one of those things that makes me think a lot about masculinity. Maybe some people here will identify with it. Here it is:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QFoBaTkPgco
Everything after his first point was superfluous.
Quote from: aleon515 on March 11, 2014, 11:56:34 PM
Anyone with "needle phobia" who is motivated by "man up" doesn't actually have needle phobia. I agree that *some people* could be motivated by social pressure to do stuff. I would add that there are cis-men afraid of needles so this is not a "trans guy" thing in the slightest. Perhaps due to social pressures they might not talk about it much.
I agree that sometimes people have "issues" with certain phrases or types of phrases.
I think the fact that I am not entirely binary makes me sensitive to binary type terms like that. Though I don't think of myself as androgynous exactly. Its not hard to imagine how this phrase would seem particularly unpleasant/possibly triggering to trans women, who no doubt got the whole idea of being a man thrown in their faces.
Actually I think "manning up" forces might be the origin of this term which is a bit strange otherwise, if you think about it hard.
--Jay
I wasn't assuming the "manly man" in my example was trans (though he could be... wouldn't
really change my point, and I disagree that social pressures can motivate someone to move past their fears. Not that it would entirely dismiss them, but it can help push someone through a rough moment - for better or worse.
I think I'll stand my my initial understanding of the phrase prior to this thread as "gathering ones forces" or "manning up". I don't think its offensive in this light. Obviously not everyone holds the same definition (or seemingly no one?), but it makes the most sense to me.
Quote from: GnomeKid on March 12, 2014, 09:40:59 AM
I think I'll stand my my initial understanding of the phrase prior to this thread as "gathering ones forces" or "manning up". I don't think its offensive in this light. Obviously not everyone holds the same definition (or seemingly no one?), but it makes the most sense to me.
You're right about what people mean by it, but you're completely missing the point. It's associating courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women. The expectation on women is lowered and with lowered expectations comes lowered respect. The expectation on men is courage, which would be fine as a motivator if you just didn't gender it and didn't use it in a condescending or insulting manner. Sometimes it's used to insult and invalidate someone's behavior as not being manly enough but I acknowledge that it's not always. Either way, the phrasing itself is really sexist.
Quote from: dalebert on March 12, 2014, 09:50:42 AM
You're right about what people mean by it, but you're completely missing the point. It's associating courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women. The expectation on women is lowered and with lowered expectations comes lowered respect. The expectation on men is courage, which would be fine as a motivator if you just didn't gender it and didn't use it in a condescending or insulting manner. Sometimes it's used to insult and invalidate someone's behavior as not being manly enough but I acknowledge that it's not always. Either way, the phrasing itself is really sexist.
The other thing is that the meaning of a word can change over time. For instance, a certain four letter word starting with "F" used to mean "to plant". "See it's okay if I use this word around my grandmother as it used to mean plant". See how far that gets you. :) Word ethnology is sometimes quite interesting, but doesn't always tell you what's going on today.
I agree that there are ways one could use this in a non-demeaning way, but it stretches the current meaning of the term. Same with "be a man". *Some* people might move past fears by being told this. I am not one of them, I guess.
I believe it's dismissive (along with Edge), I hope you will keep this in mind when you use some term like this around your buddies, who might not see it the way you do. I also definitely agree it's sexist, implying that women can't have courage and inner strength. (You obviously see quite the opposite on susans!!)
--Jay
Quote from: dalebert on March 12, 2014, 09:50:42 AM
You're right about what people mean by it, but you're completely missing the point. It's associating courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women. The expectation on women is lowered and with lowered expectations comes lowered respect. The expectation on men is courage, which would be fine as a motivator if you just didn't gender it and didn't use it in a condescending or insulting manner. Sometimes it's used to insult and invalidate someone's behavior as not being manly enough but I acknowledge that it's not always. Either way, the phrasing itself is really sexist.
I'm far from missing that point. I'd have to have not read
any of the reply's up until now. I just happen to not 100% agree. I don't believe the phrase associates "courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women." It may associate courage with men, but it doesn't mention anything about women. Its not the same as telling someone "don't be such a woman" when they're scared. It is you who are assuming that not "manning up" means being innately womanly.
These aren't facts, but opinions we're discussing. Language is often objective and is almost always contextually defined. Aaaand as I mentioned.. I was sort of merely playing devil's advocate as a form of procrastination I've never been able to resist a good debate.. I held fake debates with my friends in elementary school =p. That being said my vocabulary is far from free of offensive phrases, and I'm sure it always will be. I'm kind of with RandomDude5 on not getting offended easily. As I also said... I'm not even sure I've
ever used the phrase "man up." Nor am I sure I ever will.
I had no conception of the term as demeaning to women before this thread, and I'm sure many people in the outside world feel the same. Not saying I'm going to go shouting it from the roof tops, but I don't think I'm going to be offended by it if someone says it to me. To me it was not an outdated definition. Unlike the F word planting comparison that was made which is clearly... quite outdated. Its not like its from middle english or something.
In truth, I care very little about this issue. Don't get me wrong. I love women, and am a complete equalist on that issue. When it comes down to it I pretty much stand firm on my short and sweet (though maybe not to you) first post on this issue (first page.).
GK, not saying *anything* about you personally when saying some term is condescending to women. I don't know that this is one that a lot of people think about.
I would disagree re: language being "objective", but I agree with context being important. I could say this in a very humorous sort of way and no one would take offense. It could also be said to a young boy growing up, and this would immediately take on a different tone.
I appreciate the "devil's advocate" position. I think this is a fun discussion.
--Jay
Nick Offerman's Rules of Manhood
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYoyy5vk.jpg&hash=9f03534034098a9713a80d1bdc84bc4ee932b1a6) (http://imgur.com/gallery/UFwTC)
Quote from: aleon515 on March 12, 2014, 06:15:06 PM
GK, not saying *anything* about you personally when saying some term is condescending to women. I don't know that this is one that a lot of people think about.
I would disagree re: language being "objective", but I agree with context being important. I could say this in a very humorous sort of way and no one would take offense. It could also be said to a young boy growing up, and this would immediately take on a different tone.
I appreciate the "devil's advocate" position. I think this is a fun discussion.
--Jay
Perhaps you are right. (though I may argue that context can be objective, but I think that I won't)
I appreciate your appreciation, and I truly do appreciate the point everyone has made thus far. While this kind of PC nitpicking is a bit beyond me on the caring spectrum, I am glad there are people out there who think about it otherwise we as a society wouldn't have gotten as far as we have. Aaaand with the high percentage of friends I have who are feminists (probably like 99%) I imagine at least half of them would smack me upside the head during this debate. Doesn't mean I wouldn't attempt to have it with them. I just get irked when people think explaining their position on a matter means that everyone has to conform to it. Which seems to be what many people expect (not just on here).
I shall now lay this to rest.
Re: Can we pls never again say "man up"?
Personally, I don't think I've used the term much, if at all. But this thread has definitely made me think. I never thought about it being offensive before, but I probably won't use it now. There are other things I can say to try to motivate someone - which is the main point behind it, anyway?
Quote from: dalebert on March 07, 2014, 02:19:55 PM
My co-host is fond of substituting "ovaries" whenever he's about to make a statement like that, e.g. "It took some mighty big ovaries to try that!" I like to think every time he says that, it makes people think about these little catch phrases.
I know a couple of people that do that, I like to think the same :) on a semi-related note, this always makes me chuckle:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdforums.com%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Foff-topic%2F210432d1317820201-grow-a-vagina-wise-betty-says.jpg&hash=1fa6aa8d9e80eb401bb71f1670fbe6268235734e)
Quote from: Polo on March 13, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
I know a couple of people that do that, I like to think the same :) on a semi-related note, this always makes me chuckle:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdforums.com%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Foff-topic%2F210432d1317820201-grow-a-vagina-wise-betty-says.jpg&hash=1fa6aa8d9e80eb401bb71f1670fbe6268235734e)
This.
This article actually mentions the phrase which is really just one symptom of the broader problem of pressure to conform to "male" expectations, whatever that is.
http://malestrom1.tumblr.com/post/79546805299/why-lily-allen-presuming-to-tell-men-what-they-should#.UyMcSPldVqU
Quote from: dalebert on March 14, 2014, 10:16:48 AM
This article actually mentions the phrase which is really just one symptom of the broader problem of pressure to conform to "male" expectations, whatever that is.
http://malestrom1.tumblr.com/post/79546805299/why-lily-allen-presuming-to-tell-men-what-they-should#.UyMcSPldVqU
Good article. I like this FB page which reframes the question: Discusses stuff like raising kids, violence against women, LGBT issues (though haven't seen anything on the T yet), etc.
https://www.facebook.com/thegoodmenproject
--Jay
If anyone is curious to see the thread that inspired this thread, here's a link. WARNING: There's some major HERP DERP on the subject of gender going on over there, so I suggest you don't click if you have high blood pressure or a heart condition or a tendency to stay up all night when someone is wrong on the Internet (https://sslimgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)! Personally, I have no idea what that's like. :police:
NOTE to Mods (hopefully one sees this): I didn't actually link it yet because it's possibly a violation of the TOS since it's on a different forum. It's seems right on the borderline though. It's directly relevant as a perfect IRL example of rampant gender bias/sexism. Let me know if it's okay or not. I suppose I could just quote a few things that have been said but that wouldn't convey nearly as well the extent of logistical contortions people will try to justify their personal prejudices.
EDIT: Decided not to link it. Details below. If you want it, PM me, I guess.
With your ranking dalebert you can do it. Just make sure you trust the source as this privilege can be withdrawn if issue's occur as a result.
The information, language and content must meet our TOS's as well.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 29, 2014, 10:46:01 AM
With your ranking dalebert you can do it. Just make sure you trust the source as this privilege can be withdrawn if issue's occur as a result.
The information, language and content must meet our TOS's as well.
I guess I will err on the side of caution then. It's family-friendly IMHO and is moderated, but they don't moderate for language. The debates can get pretty heated over there occasionally (the "manliness" thread being an excellent example!). They don't moderate that nearly as much since it's not a support site.
I dunno, I get why some find it offensive but personally I get a boost when my coach uses it between sparring rounds or when I'm hurt, I'm fading or I'm close to the finish looking for that last push. For me it's more of a motivational booster, something that pushes me past my limit. The way we've discussed it in class is more that in our minds it's SuperhuMAN up. There's little short motivational boosts. "You got this" seems so passive. Like what you're doing is enough and you don't need to push youself. But "man up" feels like you have to physically power up to that extra level.
Yeah it's maybe not the best idea but for us at Taekwon-do, it works. Boy and girl alike. But I think it's one of those things where sometimes people like it and sometimes they don't, and if they don't you don't use it with them. I see it the same way I see swearing. Some love it and some hate it. Where one group find it offensive and wrong, the other find it adds to the strength of language and isn't evil. Neither group is essentially right or wrong. We could debate all day on this one and never have a conclusion.
I do think that "man up" and "be a man" shouldn't be used around kids IMO. I think it to be harmful on an emotional level when used attached to overly stereotypically masculine ways. However, at the same time, is saying that a boy who knocks up a girl should "be a man" and be there for mother and child a bad association? Maybe if these phrases were attached more to positive affirmation in less stereotypical masculine fueled ways we'd see it in a different light.