Okay, okay, not so positive a title. But this was inspired by Edge telling me it was International Women's Day (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,160325.msg1376145.html#msg1376145) in kindly response to one of my latest little feminist rants. Not that I'm reducing International Women's Day to a rant fest or anything. I'm sure there will be more positive threads.
And drawing attention to issues can't hurt.
So what gets you about the way women are treated, viewed, or presented? Or what gets you about living as a woman or having lived as a woman?
Note: there are definitely downsides to the way men are treated as well, maybe we'll discuss that next. For now, this is about women.
I could probably complain more about how men are treated, since I've lived as one far longer than I have as a woman, but...
As a woman, I constantly get harassed by weirdos on Skype now. Apparently having a somewhat sexy sounding username (wasn't my intention when I created it, but I can see how they must view it) and being listed as female makes guys think they can just randomly hit on me all the time. Ick.
By the way, ironically, if it wasn't for this thread and the one Calder made, I would not even know International Women's Day was a thing. So thanks, guys! Hehe~
Hooray! I'm a woman! It's definitely something to celebrate! :D
When is the international mens day?
No I dont really like this day...
It kinda disturbs me...
All I see on fb is women rule , you go girl , we can do anything etc...
I just wonder what would the reactions be if men did that...
and wth arent these things supposed to be settled by now...
meh I dont know
Yes I am a woman and its kinda nice to have such a day,,,
but for me the most importand thing is equality...in everything.
So it d be better to just say
"happy womens day , glad I am a girl " nothing more...
I dunno my thoughts are kinda messed up...
Quote from: Pikachu on March 08, 2014, 10:00:05 AM
By the way, ironically, if it wasn't for this thread and the one Calder made, I would not even know International Women's Day was a thing. So thanks, guys! Hehe~
I didn't either!
But they have a day for just about everything now. This month, we also apparently have National Potato Chip Day, Chocolate Covered Raisin Day, and Something on a Stick Day :laugh:
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 08, 2014, 10:06:22 AM
When is the international mens day?
No I dont really like this day...
It kinda disturbs me...
All I see on fb is women rule , you go girl , we can do anything etc...
I just wonder what would the reactions be if men did that...
and wth arent these things supposed to be settled by now...
meh I dont know
That's why I posted the note. We'll do men's gripes next.
QuoteYes I am a woman and its kinda nice to have such a day,,,
but for me the most importand thing is equality...in everything.
That's the point! :) Discussing things which are unfair or unequal.
It's ok if you lack direct experience with this, you can still point out something about the way women are treated, perceived, etc that gets you. If you want.
I honestly don't get this whole men's rights thing. To live as a woman in this world is a hard thing for the most part if you don't fit within society's narrow view of what beauty is your pretty much ignored. As for my complaints the biggest complaint is safety. Somebody who is living as male can not grasp what it's like to be stared at by men like an object. It's very intimidating and does make you feel vulnerable . I honestly have to be always wary when I'm out at night it shouldn't be that way but I am because I have to be. My other big gripe is somehow men act as though I know nothing and take me and my advice less seriously. Oh and one more gripe who in they're right mind designed women's clothes to basically be see through requiring several layers to look good but not too good because men will think your easy. :-\
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 10:30:04 AM
Something on a Stick Day :laugh:
OOOH! When is this one? >:-)
I love being a woman even with all the problems and issue's. I think I love it because I earned it the hard way through starting the transition process. I have no gripes at all because I knew going into this how life would change for the better and worse. I accept it totally! :)
I think this holiday makes a lot of sense. Look at the world. Women are treated like animals and second class citizens all over. Third world countries make up most of the worlds population and many of them have a long way to go on women's rights. Even some first world countries and their societal norms put women in a lesser category. At the end of the day, I'm a gender egalitarian and think everyone is equal and should be treated as such; however, I don't think the idea of promoting female pride and the message of equality would diminish men's rights at all. In fact, it may do a lot of good in parts of the world that are in need of hearing this message.
My personal gripe is that I notice some people at times act like men are better, smarter, and more talented or gifted than women. They don't do this on a conscious or hostile level, but it's a subtle interpretation that you can pick up on. Just listen to how some people talk about a particular woman and consider how they judge or rank their peers differently based on their gender. It can be very subtle and innocent, but it does happen quite often.
My main rant can basically be summed up as why is this still an issue? Seriously, how is this not common sense? The other day I read about someone complaining because the pilot of his plane was female. Why? It makes no sense. I read and see things about parts of the world where women are treated abhorrently. WHY?
When I was younger, girls used to sneer at other girls for being "girly." What the heck? Why is that an insult?
Before I came out as trans, I had problems keeping male friends because, way too often, it would turn out that they were just pretending to be my friend because they wanted to get in my pants. Needless to say, I have no sympathy for people who complain about the "friend zone."
I was once told by someone that men are supposed to do jobs that require logic and physical strength while women are supposed to take care of the children. He insulted men, women, and parents all in one go. Plus, his arms were so skinny, they probably would have snapped if he tried to pick up a child, but I digress.
I probably have more rants, but that's what comes to mind right now.
I don't tend to get into this stuff, and I've been regarded publicly as male since being a kid, but even I get sideswiped by a barrage of people thinking "women can't do this job" and being very rude accordingly. Go ahead and think women can't do the job, but why do you have to be rude to your coworker and be condescending solely because she's a woman? I don't even bother reading comments about women in the military. I already know the solution to rapes in the military is "women don't belong in the military!"
It's like being stuck on a rock with boneheaded monkeys, except the monkeys are smarter.
One that really gets me is the focus on youth and beauty. And I was only ever a young, good looking woman before transition, so I'm not saying this out of personal bitterness or anything. But so much of a woman's perceived worth is based on her body and age - things out of her control. As a woman, if you haven't won the genetic lottery, you're never going to have much access to the only real power women have in this world. And even if you have, you only get that for a very short window. Your perceived value falls every year. Not to the people who love you, but to the world at large and potential partners.
Because this is all based on the physical, it's always a losing game. Whereas men's value is largely based on behavior, something that you can control. A man can always come back and improve himself and win the 'man's game' by proving himself, even if he's past 40. While even the winners of the 'woman's game' are sidelined at 30 (or even as early as 25). And it's not something women can beat even by playing the 'man's game'. Not just because of sexism, but because it's not perceived the same way. I mean, a woman can be wildly successful and that's awesome and valuable. But it's not received the same way. Not only socially, but sexually. Men don't want Hillary Clinton. Women want Bill. Hell, women want Donald Trump and Hugh Hefner. But nobody's lining up for Oprah and Martha Stewart. The Kim Kardashians of the world have more power. But not for long. She's getting on in (female) years, so I don't blame her for trying to milk it for all it's worth.
Not saying the world's standards for male success are a cakewalk either, but at least they're something largely based on behavior and actions. He can keep trying and his efforts don't depreciate. Women are mostly valued for a depreciating asset.
*Sure, it's not like this on paper, but it's like this in people's minds. Everyone probably agrees it shouldn't be. But it is. 'It' is largely over for a woman by 30, men get at least double that.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
One that really gets me is the focus on youth and beauty. And I was only ever a young, good looking woman before transition, so I'm not saying this out of personal bitterness or anything. But so much of a woman's perceived worth is based on her body and age - things out of her control. As a woman, if you haven't won the genetic lottery, you're never going to have much access to the only real power women have in this world. And even if you have, you only get that for a very short window. Your perceived value falls every year. Not to the people who love you, but to the world at large and potential partners.
This, so this. Even from someone who got a relatively good number in the attractiveness lottery, it's so unmotivating sometimes that my accomplishments are not the main reason people are attracted to me. It's the blonde hair, the big lips, etc. The best I can do is find people who *like* that I'm accomplished in addition to finding me attractive. But it's so depressing to have professional ambition yet have this be seen as a deterrent rather than an asset!
That said, I do feel like fewer women now want to date men purely for their power or income. Physical attractiveness definitely comes into play more; it does with me. So maybe the world is becoming more equal. But at the end of the day, I do notice a lot of highly-accomplished though not standard-attractive women in their 30's who are single, while their male equivalents tend not to be.
The Australian Prime Minister, who when in opposition never spoke out (that I know of) against the relentless and vile sexist and misogynist attacks against our first female Prime Minister - even going so far as to think it was OK to attend a rally against her government's legislation and address a crowd in front of signs reading "Ditch the Witch" and "Bob Brown's Bitch" - has appointed himself as Minister for Women and has a cabinet with very few female ministers. That's my First World gripe.
My Third World gripe is that millions of women are still being treated as the property of men (either their fathers, husbands or other male relatives), that in some countries dogs and cows get treated with more respect than women do. :(
John Lennon's statement on the issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW5vsmZCR1o
I am not very found of having a woman's day. It sounds like one day is for the women and the rest for the men.
But it is important when it remembers how women have suffered and how they are still treated like ->-bleeped-<- in some countries.
The other day I was reading that in an asiatic country (don't remember which) women are seem as impure when they are at their periods and they aren't allowed to sleep inside their homes every time they reach their periods (7-10 days each month). People believe that if a menstruated woman touches a tree, the tree will never more bear fruits. If they touch a man, the man will become ill.
This is R-E-V-O-L-T-I-N-G
The way female children are raised to be objects. And also the discrepancy with the way smart girls are treated vs boys. As a 'smart' girl and early learner, I got the strong message that I was either innately good or bad at things. I was never encouraged by my teachers who seemed to view me with contempt. I was arguably the smartest kid in my class who knew all the answers yet I was never given any attention. I got really good grades and won awards, but that was in elementary school. Even so, the teachers looked down on me and I never received the guidance or encouragement the boys did. I got the strong message it was all for naught. It didn't matter. I was a girl. And then at 11, I got pretty and... learned where the real power was.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
One that really gets me is the focus on youth and beauty. And I was only ever a young, good looking woman before transition, so I'm not saying this out of personal bitterness or anything. But so much of a woman's perceived worth is based on her body and age - things out of her control. As a woman, if you haven't won the genetic lottery, you're never going to have much access to the only real power women have in this world. And even if you have, you only get that for a very short window. Your perceived value falls every year. Not to the people who love you, but to the world at large and potential partners.
Because this is all based on the physical, it's always a losing game. Whereas men's value is largely based on behavior, something that you can control. A man can always come back and improve himself and win the 'man's game' by proving himself, even if he's past 40. While even the winners of the 'woman's game' are sidelined at 30 (or even as early as 25). And it's not something women can beat even by playing the 'man's game'. Not just because of sexism, but because it's not perceived the same way. I mean, a woman can be wildly successful and that's awesome and valuable. But it's not received the same way. Not only socially, but sexually. Men don't want Hillary Clinton. Women want Bill. Hell, women want Donald Trump and Hugh Hefner. But nobody's lining up for Oprah and Martha Stewart. The Kim Kardashians of the world have more power. But not for long. She's getting on in (female) years, so I don't blame her for trying to milk it for all it's worth.
Not saying the world's standards for male success are a cakewalk either, but at least they're something largely based on behavior and actions. He can keep trying and his efforts don't depreciate. Women are mostly valued for a depreciating asset.
*Sure, it's not like this on paper, but it's like this in people's minds. Everyone probably agrees it shouldn't be. But it is. 'It' is largely over for a woman by 30, men get at least double that.
I got a little upset reading this, but there is no denying the fact that there is some truth in what you say. In any case, I'm hoping to fight against those societal standards and live a successful life in spite of them. I mean I'd be really sad to hear that potential partners will look at me as an old lady because I'm 25. After all, people are staying single and getting married at older ages nowadays and love knows no time limit. And I'd like to believe there are many men out there that aren't purely about youth and age, but are looking for love and compatibility. And who would want to marry such a shallow man that cares only about looks anyway? I guess I would just hate to think the writing is on the wall for me because of my age. All in all, I really don't have big dreams, but I would like to have a family of my own one day and hopefully have a somewhat successful career that will allow me to live okay. And I'm hoping that my future grad school dreams will define my chances for a successful career rather than my looks or lack of youth. Even if society has it's issues and there are problems we must overcome, I see my worth as much more than that and I'd like to believe others will to. The same goes for any other woman. I just don't want to see my life as female in such bleak terms and doubt any other woman sees it that way.
Still, even if I really dislike the societal norms in your post (not your views but the ones you are complaining about), I can't deny there is truth to it. I see how women are expected to look a certain way and it drives me crazy. I'd like to say I'm past those expectations myself, but I'm not. I feel it. I know what I should look like. I see my flaws and feel the need to correct all of them. And being 25 I'm on the cusp of going from younger to older woman. It's really painful, but it shouldn't be that way. Woman of all ages can be beautiful and worthy of the admiration of partners. They can also be equally successful to their male counter parts and have rewarding careers. There may be bs and social stigma that women have to put up with, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it or allow it to define us. I'm glad to be a girl and wouldn't trade it. I'd trade all the male privilege in the world in order to be me.
P.S. I realize you were simply addressing issues woman face not endorsing the views in your post. It's just that I can't see my future is such bleak terms, so I just had to respond. You know me and my mouth by now FA, lol.
Women can still start relationships over the age of 25 you know! :)
I had a great aunt in her sixties strike up quite a romantic relationship some years after her husband died with a guy in the same age bracket.
I have noticed a pointed difference in how I was treated when perceived as female to now as male. Before transition, people tell you to smile, bug you at bus stops... give you 'you'd look prettier if you just...' advice. I felt blissfully invisible when I started passing as male. It left a bad taste in my mouth to watch the world warp around me and suddenly I wasn't an object to try to conquer. I've had men sidle up to me, say something incredibly rude and sexist, then try to elbow nudge me and say 'You know what I mean?' like I'm totally on board.
When sometimes it comes out I was DFAB, men often say 'that's cool. I won't treat you any different', then immediately proceed to treat me different because they see women as lesser beings.
I think trans folks get a ringside seat to the horrible patriarchal 'playground' we live within. We get to see both sides throughout our lives.
Quote from: greypeacock on March 08, 2014, 04:06:38 PM
I think trans folks get a ringside seat to the horrible patriarchal 'playground' we live within. We get to see both sides throughout our lives.
Yes indeed. And speaking of guys thinking you're on board because you're "one of the guys", I had one male friend (someone who presented as a bit of a SNAG) say to me many years ago "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed", I was stunned into silence. Some hours later when he was moaning about not being able to get a girlfriend I finally found my voice and let him have it. Gave him pause to think anyway. At least he never said that kind of crap around me ever again.
Quote from: Natalia on March 08, 2014, 03:43:13 PM
I am not very found of having a woman's day. It sounds like one day is for the women and the rest for the men.
This is true, and it seems to be the only day of the year the newspapers and media really get up in arms about domestic violence and the high number (as a percentage of the homicide rate) of women murdered by their "loved ones"...the rest of the year it's rarely mentioned (except of course when yet another woman is murdered by her husband, defacto, boyfriend, father, son)...
Quote from: Ms Grace on March 08, 2014, 04:05:06 PM
Women can still start relationships over the age of 25 you know! :)
I had a great aunt in her sixties strike up quite a romantic relationship some years after her husband died with a guy in the same age bracket.
Of course! I like to think the best of our lives have yet to come and there is always the potential of something great to come. All in all, FA has valid points about how society views and treats women, but I just don't want that to define me. I suppose it's something I'll have to face one day when I age as a woman, which sucks and is unfair, but I can't let it defeat me. We have the power to make life what we want it to be, at least that's what I'd really like to believe.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 03:56:21 PM
I got a little upset reading this, but there is no denying the fact that there is some truth in what you say. In any case, I'm hoping to fight against those societal standards and live a successful life in spite of them. I mean I'd be really sad to hear that potential partners will look at me as an old lady because I'm 25. After all, people are staying single and getting married at older ages nowadays and love knows no time limit. And I'd like to believe there are many men out there that aren't purely about youth and age, but are looking for love and compatibility. And who would want to marry such a shallow man that cares only about looks anyway? I guess I would just hate to think the writing is on the wall for me because of my age. All in all, I really don't have big dreams, but I would like to have a family of my own one day and hopefully have a somewhat successful career that will allow me to live okay. And I'm hoping that my future grad school dreams will define my chances for a successful career rather than my looks or lack of youth. Even if society has it's issues and there are problems we must overcome, I see my worth as much more than that and I'd like to believe others will to. The same goes for any other woman. I just don't want to see my life as female in such bleak terms and doubt any other woman sees it that way.
Still, even if I really dislike the societal norms in your post (not your views but the ones you are complaining about), I can't deny there is truth to it. I see how women are expected to look a certain way and it drives me crazy. I'd like to say I'm past those expectations myself, but I'm not. I feel it. I know what I should look like. I see my flaws and feel the need to correct all of them. And being 25 I'm on the cusp of going from younger to older woman. It's really painful, but it shouldn't be that way. Woman of all ages can be beautiful and worthy of the admiration of partners. They can also be equally successful to their male counter parts and have rewarding careers. There may be bs and social stigma that women have to put up with, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it or allow it to define us. I'm glad to be a girl and wouldn't trade it. I'd trade all the male privilege in the world in order to be me.
P.S. I realize you were simply addressing issues woman face not endorsing the views in your post. It's just that I can't see my future is such bleak terms, so I just had to respond. You know me and my mouth by now FA, lol.
It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25. I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.
But that doesn't mean life as a woman is all bad. If you're a woman, it's just one of those things. It doesn't mean you won't get a mate. You're still a woman after all. It's just that younger women are viewed as better candidates even by much older men. To be a woman is to fall into a abyss of physical and chronological worth which is every bit as constraining as behavioral constraints for men.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25. I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.
That absolutely sucks, but I can't deny your experience. I just really hope my dating experience won't be that bad. I figure being a transwoman makes it tough enough to find love. And I'm already obsessed about my body and appearance. Now age too? Oh well, add this to the list of depressing factoids, lol.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
But that doesn't mean life as a woman is all bad. If you're a woman, it's just one of those things. It doesn't mean you won't get a mate. You're still a woman after all. It's just that younger women are viewed as better candidates even by much older men. To be a woman is to fall into a abyss of physical and chronological worth which is every bit as constraining as behavioral constraints for men.
Yeah, the whole looks and age thing has been getting to me lately, so I just get sensitive to it when it's brought up. I'm sure you know the hurt and it sucks. But it doesn't change the fact that it's real and impacts women. I just hate it.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25. I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.
Just to contradict this slightly this hasn't been my personal experience. I'm 38 and I was 33 when I met my now ex (he was 32). I've always looked at least ten years younger so he thought I was in my early 20's and was concerned I might be too young for him. He didn't really care when he found out my real age, nor has anyone I've dated.
So in my experience, the age you seem is more important than the age you actually are, especially for transwomen since we don't have the having babies issue. At 38 now I look to a lot of people like I'm in my late 20's, which is no longer prime female territory, so over the years the amount of attention I get has gotten less. But I had that early 20's woman bloom through my mid-30's, and I didn't experience a lot of people being disappointed when they found out my actual age.
Also, keep in mind that the second puberty that comes with HRT makes transwomen look generally younger than they actually are, so that's a plus!
Though tbh, while I'm happy to date men in their 40's (the current guy is 42, and a really hot 42 :), the ones I've previously dated who are now that age seem so *old* to me, and I lose my attraction for them. Especially because I have my own career and don't really care about how much money people make, I feel like I'm also in a position to evaluate based on looks.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
Yeah, the whole looks and age thing has been getting to me lately, so I just get sensitive to it when it's brought up. I'm sure you know the hurt and it sucks. But it doesn't change the fact that it's real and impacts women. I just hate it.
Basically as long as you're attractive (and you are) you won't have a problem dating. I'm 38 and getting a date is completely not a problem for me. It's just that as you age, fewer people are attracted to you and so you have fewer people to pick from.
The more substantial issue I see with you is confidence, and comfort about being trans. I always approach disclosure from a strong position. Being trans isn't something I'm ashamed of, and lovers I disclose to can sense that. So far, no one I've dated has rejected me for being trans (fingers crossed on the new guy). Also while we all have emotional crosses to bear, good people tend to gravitate towards the emotionally healthy, and transition can get in the way of that for a lot of people. So when I read some of your posts here, what I feel is that the emotional side requires the more difficult work rather than the physical side in terms of being able to find a long-term relationship post-transition.
Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 04:58:35 PM
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25. I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.
Just to contradict this slightly this hasn't been my personal experience. I'm 38 and I was 33 when I met my now ex (he was 32). I've always looked at least ten years younger so he thought I was in my early 20's and was concerned I might be too young for him. He didn't really care when he found out my real age, nor has anyone I've dated.
So in my experience, the age you seem is more important than the age you actually are, especially for transwomen since we don't have the having babies issue. At 38 now I look to a lot of people like I'm in my late 20's, which is no longer prime female territory, so over the years the amount of attention I get has gotten less. But I had that early 20's woman bloom through my mid-30's, and I didn't experience a lot of people being disappointed when they found out my actual age.
Also, keep in mind that the second puberty that comes with HRT makes transwomen look generally younger than they actually are, so that's a plus!
Though tbh, while I'm happy to date men in their 40's (the current guy is 42, and a really hot 42 :), the ones I've previously dated who are now that age seem so *old* to me, and I lose my attraction for them. Especially because I have my own career and don't really care about how much money people make, I feel like I'm also in a position to evaluate based on looks.
Well, these weren't dating experiences. They were friends, acquaintances, and random people on the street. I'm just saying that generally women are most desirable within a very young bracket. And it's very restricting. Given the choice, all other things equal, most guys will go for the younger woman. Now, if the older woman is considerably more attractive, it may be different.
Quote from: Ms Grace on March 08, 2014, 04:17:19 PM
Yes indeed. And speaking of guys thinking you're on board because you're "one of the guys", I had one male friend (someone who presented as a bit of a SNAG) say to me many years ago "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed", I was stunned into silence. Some hours later when he was moaning about not being able to get a girlfriend I finally found my voice and let him have it. Gave him pause to think anyway. At least he never said that kind of crap around me ever again.
Wow, that's pretty bad. -_- Good for you for saying something.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
That absolutely sucks, but I can't deny your experience. I just really hope my dating experience won't be that bad. I figure being a transwoman makes it tough enough to find love. And I'm already obsessed about my body and appearance. Now age too? Oh well, add this to the list of depressing factoids, lol.
Yeah, the whole looks and age thing has been getting to me lately, so I just get sensitive to it when it's brought up. I'm sure you know the hurt and it sucks. But it doesn't change the fact that it's real and impacts women. I just hate it.
It is awful. Being valued primarily for your body and thus being little more than a depreciating asset. Growing up that way is even worse. Learning that you are a sum of parts. And that the best you can hope for is to make those parts more attractive. A pretty face and tits. That's it. That's you.
Youth has it's allure. That's Nature.
Women tend to like men with broad shoulders, who are taller, narrow waist/pelvis ("V-shape"), moderate muscled, with a full head of non-gray hair. Biology says that is a suitable potential father of children.
Men tend to like women who are shorter, with a low waist-to-hip ratio ("hour glass"), a plump bottom, and moderate breasts. That says she is healthy enough for child-bearing.
That is not to say that other body types, ages, signs of maturity, orientations, etc, are not signals to some people. They are. What I listed are broad generalizations from evolutionary biologists and psychologists.
I consider 25 years old to be "youthful."
Quote from: Jamie D on March 08, 2014, 06:26:57 PM
Youth has it's allure. That's Nature.
Women tend to like men with broad shoulders, who are taller, narrow waist/pelvis ("V-shape"), moderate muscled, with a full head of non-gray hair. Biology says that is a suitable potential father of children.
Men tend to like women who are shorter, with a low waist-to-hip ratio ("hour glass"), a plump bottom, and moderate breasts. That says she is healthy enough for child-bearing.
That is not to say that other body types, ages, signs of maturity, orientations, etc, are not signals to some people. They are. What I listed are broad generalizations from evolutionary biologists and psychologists.
I consider 25 years old to be "youthful."
Pretty much. But there's an age discrepancy that while may have biological roots, does not favor women. It feels like absolute ->-bleeped-<- to be born with an expiration date. I mean, sure everyone has one. Men die even earlier, but women have two expiration dates: the early one where they become invisible and cease to matter to society and death. Men have only death. Ok, maybe very old age. But from that perspective, women have three. Their biological, social, and sexual expiration date happens before middle age. Men get a lot longer. Take a 25 year old man and a 25 year old woman. The man is seen as just getting started while the woman's already on the down cline. Men peak in value at about 40 or 50. Women at 15 or 20. It's no wonder women have an age complex.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 05:30:21 PM
It is awful. Being valued primarily for your body and thus being little more than a depreciating asset. Growing up that way is even worse. Learning that you are a sum of parts. And that the best you can hope for is to make those parts more attractive. A pretty face and tits. That's it. That's you.
The big question is... what to do about it??
Men who pine for the days when women "knew their place". *gags*
In northern India, the Hindus used to have the widow throw herself on the funeral pyre of her husband (sati/sutee).
Among the Eskimos/Inuit, the old practice was for the grandmother to be placed on the ice floes when she could no longer carry her own weight.
Polygamy has always been more common than polyandry, and in some ancient cultures, the widows were killed and entombed with their dead husbands.
Of course, on the flip side, do you know why husbands die before their wives?
They want to. ;)
Quote from: Ms Grace on March 08, 2014, 06:43:19 PM
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 05:30:21 PM
It is awful. Being valued primarily for your body and thus being little more than a depreciating asset. Growing up that way is even worse. Learning that you are a sum of parts. And that the best you can hope for is to make those parts more attractive. A pretty face and tits. That's it. That's you.
The big question is... what to do about it??
I don't think there is anything. Mother nature and society have decided that some people will be born as depreciating eye candy. And naturally, that candy or cake looks less appealing the longer it lasts. Yeah sure, we're 'allowed' to dress or act however we want. And everyone wants us and helps us and feels bad for us. Because it doesn't matter. We're candy.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 07:01:35 PM
I don't think there is anything. Mother nature and society have decided that some people will be born as depreciating eye candy. And naturally, that candy or cake looks less appealing the longer it lasts. Yeah sure, we're 'allowed' to dress or act however we want. And everyone wants us and helps us and feels bad for us. Because it doesn't matter. We're candy.
*sigh* You're really calling it like it is. Having said all this, the men I've dated have all been feminist for the most part, and are sensitive to the plight of women. Though I'm also sure physical attraction played an important role in them dating me, and the same is true the other way around. So while I agree that what you're describing is the way society is on aggregate, I think individually there are a lot of people who aren't part of this dynamic.
Wow, this is all so depressing to read through... Especially seeing that it depressed learningtolive. I hope it's never something she has to experience.
I'll never have to experience it, anyway... I was already over 25 when I admitted to myself I am trans*. I've never once dated, and never plan to. I'm already in a relationship that I plan to be in until we're both old and grey and die of natural causes, and we met and fell in love online, neither of us caring or knowing what the other looked like until well into the romantic relationship. It's all about personality and chemistry. Don't worry about the shallow people, learningtolive. They aren't worth your time, anyway. A woman with your gorgeous personality is sure to find someone who will love and appreciate you. :)
Femininity is not valued by this society.
Being tough, violent, unyielding, and self-reliant are values that are heavily promoted and admired in our society. Being sensitive, emotional, cooperative, understanding, and supportive are not.
Even movie heroines tend to be most looked up to when they take on masculine characteristics or goals.
Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 07:38:26 PM
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 07:01:35 PM
I don't think there is anything. Mother nature and society have decided that some people will be born as depreciating eye candy. And naturally, that candy or cake looks less appealing the longer it lasts. Yeah sure, we're 'allowed' to dress or act however we want. And everyone wants us and helps us and feels bad for us. Because it doesn't matter. We're candy.
*sigh* You're really calling it like it is. Having said all this, the men I've dated have all been feminist for the most part, and are sensitive to the plight of women. Though I'm also sure physical attraction played an important role in them dating me, and the same is true the other way around. So while I agree that what you're describing is the way society is on aggregate, I think individually there are a lot of people who aren't part of this dynamic.
oh I agree. Most individuals are not this heartless. But being an attractive young woman, you're sort of thrust into this display case whether you want to be or not whether you're masculine or not. And everyone's a critic. Everyone comments on you. There's nothing you can do. You can never just exist. If you try to hide your body, you're 'fat' AKA the worst thing you can be as a girl. If you wear something that fits your body, you're a whore. If you eat, you're a horrible person. If you age, you're a horrible person. Because you are never allowed to forget that you are first and foremost, a body.
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 08, 2014, 07:53:19 PM
Being tough, violent, unyielding, and self-reliant are values that are heavily promoted and admired in our society. Being sensitive, emotional, cooperative, understanding, and supportive are not.
In that case, I'm ever so slightly screwed, lol.
You embody all the traits I value and aspire to be, Sephirah. :)
I don't really identify with very many of these at all. But here are two of my pet peeves with which I have a long, long, long history.
(1) The strange, creepy random guys (and occasionally gals) from around the world who contact me with flirtatious messages. This is nothing new. Years ago, back when I used ICQ, it was really noticeable that guys from Turkey did this a lot. Now I get these from the U.S, the U.K., Pakistan, the Philippines, basically anywhere.
(2) I often wear a fake engagement ring to signal that I'm not on the market. If some guy is a little too friendly, I employ creative body language to put it up where he can't possibly miss it. Sometimes it works. Sometimes not. But why is it that the jewelry I'm employing to signal disinterest and unavailability actually is a signal that I belong to some other guy? And why is it presumed that I'm fair game for any guy out there if I'm not wearing a sign that I belong to some other guy? This too is a pet peeve that goes back years and years and years. I want an I'm-not-looking-so-go-away-and-find-someone-else ring. Even though it is fun when people get excited and start congratulating me.
Quote from: Pikachu on March 08, 2014, 07:50:55 PM
Wow, this is all so depressing to read through... Especially seeing that it depressed learningtolive. I hope it's never something she has to experience.
<sigh> I guess I turned this thread into another feminist rant. That wasn't my intention. I guess all I can say is that growing up female and being a young attractive woman really took it's toll on me. I never in a million years wanted to be that. Now I'm stuck trying to erase harmful and limiting messages from my brain. That's where all this is coming from. I finally realized that it's hard for me to move on with all this. I still feel like a body. I know I have other attributes, but I still deep down feel that nothing I do matters if I don't look good in a photo. Even as a guy. Because of the programming.
Hi,
Yes its good to remember what we have been through and how we have been treated in a totaly bad and down putting way,
yes we can be very down trodden and thought of as things to be used for mens own,
take the men out of our groups and we will still be running them we have a place in socity that men can not do with out take us out and then watch the chaos men are reliant on us , are we equal well no we are different and we bring different things with us what needs to happen is we share together,
im not equal to a man or men my body and mind is different, and we dont have to be equal we just need to be accepted for who we are and our gifts are not the same as men,
Womans day ..... no...... womans day is every day of our lives .when men realise we are just as importaint as men and they see in us what we have and bring then maybe we can all share together,
...noeleena...
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:30:06 PM
<sigh> I guess I turned this thread into another feminist rant. That wasn't my attention. I guess all I can say is that growing up female and being a young attractive woman really took it's toll on me. I never in a million years wanted to be that. Now I'm stuck trying to erase harmful and limiting messages from my brain. That's where all this is coming from. I finally realized that it's hard for me to move on with all this. I still feel like a body. I know I have other attributes, but I still deep down feel that nothing I do matters if I don't look good in a photo. Even as a guy. Because of the programming.
I get you. Well...I don't know if I was ever the attractive part. :P Lol. But I've held on to stuff that has happened to me, ways people have made me feel...some gender related, some not. You know, I watched a video buy a guy a while back (wish I could remember his name...he's really tough looking lol), he was completely done his transition but he said his brain still held on to bad experiences he had. Like, as a woman, he said people often called him 'dyke', he feared for his safety sometimes, people looked at him like he 'had two heads' (his words) because he wasn't everything society told him a woman should be. He thought he was done with it but he discovered it was still a struggle.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:30:06 PM
<sigh> I guess I turned this thread into another feminist rant. That wasn't my intention. I guess all I can say is that growing up female and being a young attractive woman really took it's toll on me. I never in a million years wanted to be that. Now I'm stuck trying to erase harmful and limiting messages from my brain. That's where all this is coming from. I finally realized that it's hard for me to move on with all this. I still feel like a body. I know I have other attributes, but I still deep down feel that nothing I do matters if I don't look good in a photo. Even as a guy. Because of the programming.
Programming can be de-programmed and overwritten, hon. Nothing in one's mind is set in stone, and cannot be changed.
What you need to do is learn to acknowledge the times you were, and are, appreciated for what you do, and who you are, rather than how you look. It's hard, I know, when you've had years of conditioning drummed into you. Sometimes it feels hard-wired. But one way past this is to make a conscious effort to focus on the things and attributes you
want to be seen for. Get into the habit of making note of them, writing them down. If you do something good for someone, and they show their appreciation, make a note of it and how it made you feel. More importantly make a note of what it was that you were appreciated for. What you did, or said.
The point is to give yourself a frame of reference you can look back on. A different way of being treated that you may otherwise totally overlook. By doing this, the more and more it happens, the more your mind starts to let go of old thought patterns which no longer apply, and adopt new ones more appropriate with who you are and how you want to live.
*gives FA a big, warm hug*
Sorry if I made it sound like I was blaming you in some way. I didn't mean it like that at all. There are plenty of things that still bother me a great deal that happened long ago, too. There's nothing wrong with expressing your frustration over them, and you weren't doing it in a negative way, I didn't think.
Quote from: Pikachu on March 08, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
*gives FA a big, warm hug*
Sorry if I made it sound like I was blaming you in some way. I didn't mean it like that at all. There are plenty of things that still bother me a great deal that happened long ago, too. There's nothing wrong with expressing your frustration over them, and you weren't doing it in a negative way, I didn't think.
Thanks hon. I think if I felt that way even as a more masculine identified girl, then tons of girls out there are probably feeling that way too. I'm not saying everyone got it as bad or the same as me. But I can't shake these issues. Maybe talking about it here has helped a little. I was reluctant. I mean, admitting this kind of thing doesn't look good. I mean, I'm a guy, I'm not supposed to be affected by women's issues.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:30:06 PM
<sigh> I guess I turned this thread into another feminist rant. That wasn't my intention. I guess all I can say is that growing up female and being a young attractive woman really took it's toll on me. I never in a million years wanted to be that. Now I'm stuck trying to erase harmful and limiting messages from my brain. That's where all this is coming from. I finally realized that it's hard for me to move on with all this. I still feel like a body. I know I have other attributes, but I still deep down feel that nothing I do matters if I don't look good in a photo. Even as a guy. Because of the programming.
I think the point of International Women's Day is to raise consciousness of feminist issues. So what's wrong with starting a discussion of them? :)
We could probably have an interesting discussion thread about how programming from early in life affects trans* people long after transitioning. I could see that being a good way to address some of the controversial topics that are occasionally whispered about around here . . . .
I do not self-identify as a feminist. But it is interesting how I certainly have some complaints that fit within the category of issues that are usually thought of as feminist issues. But the problem is that from my viewpoint, I think the way males are treated sucks too. It's hard for me to buy into certain parts of a sort of pop-feminist view. Although some feminists (e.g. Susan Faluddi) are aware of this, are concerned about it, and are starting to more critically examine ideas like male privilege.
I'd be really interested in seeing a version of this thread for the opposite side of the fence.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 09:10:53 PM
I mean, admitting this kind of thing doesn't look good. I mean, I'm a guy, I'm not supposed to be affected by women's issues.
And the idea that men should not be affected by women's lives seems like a feminist issue itself.
Eh, probably not my place to say anything here because I'm not a woman nor do I agree with feminists for the most part.
*hugs Calder, too*
That's okay. You already made a thread for International Women's Day. Besides, FA's not a woman, either. You're welcome to participate, if you'd like. :)
Quote from: Pikachu on March 08, 2014, 10:20:41 PM
*hugs Calder, too*
That's okay. You already made a thread for International Women's Day. Besides, FA's not a woman, either. You're welcome to participate, if you'd like. :)
I love women and I think everyone on this Earth should be equal but I think modern day feminism is very hypocritical and sexist towards men.
Quote from: Calder Smith on March 08, 2014, 10:32:34 PM
I love women and I think everyone on this Earth should be equal but I think modern day feminism is very hypocritical and sexist towards men.
Yeah, I've seen a lot of that type of feminism, too, unfortunately. It's why I tend to avoid the word altogether. Besides, I figure each group of people has their own problems. I feel like if I label myself a feminist, it makes me sound like I'm only concerned with one specific group's, and that just doesn't sit well with me.
Quote from: Calder Smith on March 08, 2014, 10:32:34 PM
I love women and I think everyone on this Earth should be equal but I think modern day feminism is very hypocritical and sexist towards men.
I've seen some of that too, but I'm saving that rant for the griping about men's issues thread that was promised. Although, it could technically fit here too since the topic of rape is generally seen as solely a feminist issue regardless of the fact that it is bad regardless of the gender of the victims or the perpetrators.
Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 09:10:53 PM
I mean, I'm a guy, I'm not supposed to be affected by women's issues.
I'd argue that everyone is affected by women's issues.
Western society/media makes women feel like they aren't a woman unless they are very beautiful. They spend all their money always achieving that perfection that they might not even reach and then become frustrated, angry, and fearful. Society only knows one kind of woman. It disregards the whole spectrum of women out there.
This video is very inspiring to me and I hope that it inspires you too! She looks great with the beard!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgQjfcpG7XY#t=51
I was on the "Reclaim The Night" march on Friday. We still need this sort of protest because women who go out alone are still likely to be assaulted. Recent figures suggest two women are raped every week around here, and two men are convicted every year.
We didn't have much harrassment on the march. That's "not much" - not "none".
Oh, and yes it is a "women only" event. In Oxford it was clearly advertised as "Only for self identified women". I was a steward, so making no attempt to keep a low profile.
oh geez.. is this new?
I've never heard of this before. Sounds to me like something facebook or the media recently made up.
Don't get me wrong. I love women (and wouldn't begrudge them all 365 days), but sometimes it all gets a bit insane with all these labeled months and days.
Maybe its been being friends with/surrounded by women my whole life/in girl scouts for years and years that I've never really experienced anyone who is distinctly misogynistic that wasn't regarded as a complete fool, or some sort of old-fashioned joke of a person. To me women being equal has always just been... well... obvious.
Quote from: Calder Smith on March 08, 2014, 10:32:34 PM
I love women and I think everyone on this Earth should be equal but I think modern day feminism is very hypocritical and sexist towards men.
I also agree with this as well. Not that I
AT ALL transitioned to have male privilege, but as I slowly changed from a lesbian female to a straight male I felt actually
more bias against me (esp. less scholarships/financial support available). Maybe thats only in my small world though. I'm sure on a larger scale (or if I was to run into some boys-club type of ->-bleeped-<-s) this can't be true, but it certainly feels that way sometimes.
anyway... go women! sorry to shove my newly straight male opinions into this =p
Perhaps it's called "Take Back The Night" where you live. In the last year for which we have figures, two women were raped every week in my city and two men a year were prosecuted. I don't know what you mean by "distinctly misogynistic" but the police who decide it's not worth the bother of investigating rapes are bad enough in my view.
Quote from: MaryXYX on March 11, 2014, 12:00:34 PM
Perhaps it's called "Take Back The Night" where you live. In the last year for which we have figures, two women were raped every week in my city and two men a year were prosecuted. I don't know what you mean by "distinctly misogynistic" but the police who decide it's not worth the bother of investigating rapes are bad enough in my view.
We've had Take Back the Night for at least 5 years as I remember someone I know organizing it. I think it's been a thing for a while though.
-----
This is unrelated, but I remember one of the things I really hated about being female was how no one ever took you serious when you were angry. I've never had that experience as male
yet because I've never expressed my anger, so I can't compare, but I noticed the dynamic in my family at least. One time my aunt was late getting home to make dinner and they're all like "omg you better get home or Uncle will be angry!" Whereas I'd raise my voice a little when a sibling or something insulted me, and they'd go "whoaaaaaaa" or laugh at me. Like seriously? You're tiptoing around a big baby who might get angry because he eats a half hour later, but you're going to mock me for having legitimate anger? Wtf is that?
Quote from: birkin on March 11, 2014, 04:17:44 PM
We've had Take Back the Night for at least 5 years as I remember someone I know organizing it. I think it's been a thing for a while though.
-----
This is unrelated, but I remember one of the things I really hated about being female was how no one ever took you serious when you were angry. I've never had that experience as male yet because I've never expressed my anger, so I can't compare, but I noticed the dynamic in my family at least. One time my aunt was late getting home to make dinner and they're all like "omg you better get home or Uncle will be angry!" Whereas I'd raise my voice a little when a sibling or something insulted me, and they'd go "whoaaaaaaa" or laugh at me. Like seriously? You're tiptoing around a big baby who might get angry because he eats a half hour later, but you're going to mock me for having legitimate anger? Wtf is that?
Really? That's interesting. My experience is more don't mess with an angry woman, at least with my family. Nothing is funny about my sister or mother mad. Yet, "the men" of the family were always more passive (myself included). I guess we're the opposite family, lol.
Quote from: MaryXYX on March 11, 2014, 12:00:34 PM
Perhaps it's called "Take Back The Night" where you live. In the last year for which we have figures, two women were raped every week in my city and two men a year were prosecuted. I don't know what you mean by "distinctly misogynistic" but the police who decide it's not worth the bother of investigating rapes are bad enough in my view.
I guess I meant really just misogynistic at all.. I guess I am surrounded by a pretty feminist group of people. My best male friend was a gay women's studies major....... soooooo yea.
That is completely f-cked up though, and I'm sad to hear about it. I'd definitely consider a legal system like that to be distinctly misogynistic. There are certainly injustices in this world that need to be reconfigured, and brought to light for those people who don't see this issues with situations like that. I'm glad there are people out there fighting against it.
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 08, 2014, 10:06:22 AM
When is the international mens day?
I believe that would be the other days.
I believe it's right after white history year <_<
Well this is odd... IWD has long passed now. I wasn't expecting someone to revive the thread.
Quote from: Pikachu on March 25, 2014, 01:13:04 AM
Well this is odd... IWD has long passed now. I wasn't expecting someone to revive the thread.
Wait, you mean every day isn't an IWD? That's my new feminist gripe.
lol
Well, all holidays are kind of dumb, IMO. Unless they allow me to get out of work. Those are cool. :P