...and I need some advise
We met a couple of days ago , we have a common friend who had told me beforehand that she has a friend with "gender issues" and has also told her that she has a mtf friend, so you know we kinda wanted to meet each other, so after we went out with a bunch of other people we returned to a friends house and I got the chance to talk with her about it...
She has something that seems similar with gender dysphoria , I mean she hates her body , she sees a stranger in the mirror...that kind of stuff...
I must have asked her a thousands questions until we reached something like a conclusion about what see wants to do...
She said that see feels like neither a male or female , she thinks that a lot of people live inside her but not like the bipolar way...
and the perfect thing for her would be to live some time as a male , some as female , some androgynous and change between these whenever she feels like it...
Though I can feel she is kinda overwhelmed by this...she looks more feminine than the most feminine existence out there , she is really small and has the most cute high voice ever and looks amazingly beautiful...so yeah her female mode If I should call it is fine...but the male mode she d like to be able to have kinda isnt , and she kept talking about how she thinks she ll never pass and that she would hate having to "transform " or "wear a mask" in order to live as a guy...
She said that she wish she was taller ,have deeper voice , but not in order to be a guy but in order to able to be a woman and also be a guy whenever she feels like it...btw her preffered pronouns change according to the gender she present as.
Until now she hasnt tried to change her appearance towards anything than female , mostly cause she thinks any other appearnce will look bad...thats the impression I got at least...I tried really hard to understand her cause even though we have a lot of things in common it was the first time I was hearing something like this...
Is she bigender?is she something else?
I thought she was compeletly unique until I did my research and found the term bigender which seems to kinda suit her...
From what she told me I think she will be in "the middle" forever so I think it would be best to accept herself and start doing things rather than having this tormeting her...she is on antidepressants but as we all know this would just help with feeling sad but these thoughts wont go away...
I just wish to help her somehow , I already told her that if she ever wants to try going out as a guy me and her other friends will be there and she said that she ll definitely do it someday...
Man I thought that being trans was kinda tough,,,must be difficult to want to alter your presentation that often...
she also said something extremely interesting "and what am I going to do ?call my friend and be like ok today im a boy?"
Btw I must have confused her a bit , cause she confused me a bit too , im now thinking "maybe I ll want to go out as a boy sometimes when im done with transition" or im questioning how much I fit into the binary gender...yet Im not gonna question my female soul...or am I? well its definitely more female than male...*sigh* nevermind :angel:
Any advise or education towards this subject will be appreciated
:angel:
Uh, she might have DID. :S
I get how she feels though, a lot, and honestly who cares abt the labels you know?
Quote from: sad panda on March 09, 2014, 07:12:59 AM
Uh, she might have DID. :S
I get how she feels though, a lot, and honestly who cares abt the labels you know?
Sure I dont really care about labels either , I think its just convenient if you can somehow use a single word to describe a condition or somethin,
I myself use labels just for this kind of convenience, they indeed not concern me that much at all...
btw thought I didnt get it...what do you mean she might have DID?
I think the description of what they feel better suits the definition of genderfluid (somebody whose gender identity and presentation changes periodically?). I thought bigender means that they identify as female and male at the same time.
But I really don't know much about non binary people, and moreover they are just labels, they don't change the reality of feelings.
I guess it must be difficult to live such a double sense of identity.
To be honest, it is very unlikely that everybody will always respect the gender they will identify at the moment, especially considering, as you said, that their appearance is not androginous.
I think it might help them to have at least some friends who know about their gender issues and are willing to make the effort to respect the right pronouns depending on their current presentation. Then, maybe they could try to go by gender neutral pronouns? I guess this would be easier if they stay in college or in some very openminded environment.
About body disphoria, if they do not want to take hormones, they can try the obvious things, like short hair (they can be feminine too, for when they want to present as female), or exercising (having a lean and somewhat muscular figure can help), and buying the right clothes.
Maybe they will never pass 100% as male, but it may help with their self esteem?
TW: now I am going to say very obvious things!
Anyway, I believe people who feel hundred percent male or female or exactly inbetween are rare. The great majority has something of both genders in themselves. In the end it is all about finding the appearance and the presentation that makes you feel more comfortable and happy, without worrying too much about passing or other people's opinion.
Quote from: Mattia on March 09, 2014, 08:12:31 AM
I think the description of what they feel better suits the definition of genderfluid (somebody whose gender identity and presentation changes periodically?). I thought bigender means that they identify as female and male at the same time.
But I really don't know much about non binary people, and moreover they are just labels, they don't change the reality of feelings.
I guess it must be difficult to live such a double sense of identity.
To be honest, it is very unlikely that everybody will always respect the gender they will identify at the moment, especially considering, as you said, that their appearance is not androginous.
I think it might help them to have at least some friends who know about their gender issues and are willing to make the effort to respect the right pronouns depending on their current presentation. Then, maybe they could try to go by gender neutral pronouns? I guess this would be easier if they stay in college or in some very openminded environment.
About body disphoria, if they do not want to take hormones, they can try the obvious things, like short hair (they can be feminine too, for when they want to present as female), or exercising (having a lean and somewhat muscular figure can help), and buying the right clothes.
Maybe they will never pass 100% as male, but it may help with their self esteem?
TW: now I am going to say very obvious things!
Anyway, I believe people who feel hundred percent male or female or exactly inbetween are rare. The great majority has something of both genders in themselves. In the end it is all about finding the appearance and the presentation that makes you feel more comfortable and happy, without worrying too much about passing or other people's opinion.
hhhm maybe you right , genderfluid maybe describes her better...what caught my attention is this though, she doesnt just want to be one time a boy one a girl she wants to kinda be a different boy and girl each time appearance wise...does that even means anything?
I myself have never actually tried to learn about terms like these and yeah it gets confusing with all these labels :/
Its ok though , she has accepting friends she is in college, the only obstacle is her worriers kinda...
She doesnt want to change her appearance firstly cause she thinks it wont look good and secondly cause she ll eventually want to look female again...
So im guessing that in order to pull something like this off she ll be needing a pro make over every time , yet she doesnt want to feel like having to transform into something...
there are too many worries...
btw in greece we dont have neutral pronouns , but thats not an issue , she like the females when she is female and the males when hes male...
its too complicated if you ask me :(
I didn't understand the fact about being different boys and girls everytime. Yeah, this makes everything even more complicated. I don't want to sound pessimistic but I think it may be very difficult to have people accept and understand it.
Very complicated.
Anyway, I am sorry, I thought you were english! I didn't know you were from greece (It's one of the country I loved more, btw). I am a fellow european and i don't have neutral pronouns either here. I guess anglophone nonbinary folks have it easier on that account.
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 09, 2014, 07:22:46 AM
Sure I dont really care about labels either , I think its just convenient if you can somehow use a single word to describe a condition or somethin,
I myself use labels just for this kind of convenience, they indeed not concern me that much at all...
btw thought I didnt get it...what do you mean she might have DID?
Dissociative identity disorder, it's when a person who suffered trauma splits into different personalities called alters that come out when they can't cope with things, and they can be different genders, types of people, behaviors and stuff.
Quote from: Mattia on March 09, 2014, 09:08:36 AM
I didn't understand the fact about being different boys and girls everytime. Yeah, this makes everything even more complicated. I don't want to sound pessimistic but I think it may be very difficult to have people accept and understand it.
Very complicated.
Anyway, I am sorry, I thought you were english! I didn't know you were from greece (It's one of the country I loved more, btw). I am a fellow european and i don't have neutral pronouns either here. I guess anglophone nonbinary folks have it easier on that account.
its complicated and difficult :(
makes me sad cause she is really an amazing person...
Strangers may not understand but since she has understanding friends and family who are willing to help her Im sure somehow it will work out :) I only recently met her but I told her she can count me in too :)
Anyway thanks for your posts :)
Yeah I guess not wanting neither male or female pronouns but have nothing else is kinda tough...
hhhhm actually...there is a way at least in greek to avoid gender specific pronouns completely...I used to do it for some time actually...
Quote from: sad panda on March 09, 2014, 09:21:28 AM
Dissociative identity disorder, it's when a person who suffered trauma splits into different personalities called alters that come out when they can't cope with things, and they can be different genders, types of people, behaviors and stuff.
I doubt this cause she didnt show any signs of her personality changes,,,her personality is kinda of a mix , she acts both masculine and feminine at the same time kinda...
She did said that she feels like she has a lot of people inside her but I believe she means it kinda different,,, maybe it has to do with gender expression...
man I fail to understand the complexity of this...
if she had DID im sure there would be signs or her friend would have told me already in order to not get surprised if something happens...
I believe that her soul if you wanna call it like that is just complicated and different , maybe its a soul that can and wants to act a lot different ways?...
I ll try to hang out with her more and see...
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 09, 2014, 09:32:15 AM
she acts both masculine and feminine at the same time kinda...
She sounds more on the genderfluid/androgyne side to me. Bigender is defined as:
"Bigender (bi+gender) is a gender identification which manifests itself as a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behavior depending on context, expressing a distinctly male persona and a distinctly female persona."https://www.susans.org/wiki/Bigender
Bigender people call that "flipping" between two genders. Some flip as often as several times a minute, others flip less often, up to and including going for months on end in one gender. I experienced the feeling of having two genders and flipping between them so thought that I was bigender, but it turns out after therapy that my gender situation ran a bit deeper than that.
There is a member here that is well versed in all things DID and the effects that are caused by it, and if they see this thread then I'm sure that they will be along to add comments about it.
It is very complicated, and it takes a special person to spend the time to get to know a person like this.
Quote from: Eva Marie on March 09, 2014, 10:01:00 AM
She sounds more on the genderfluid/androgyne side to me. Bigender is defined as:
"Bigender (bi+gender) is a gender identification which manifests itself as a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behavior depending on context, expressing a distinctly male persona and a distinctly female persona."
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Bigender
Bigender people call that "flipping" between two genders. Some flip as often as several times a minute, others flip less often, up to and including going for months on end in one gender. I experienced the feeling of having two genders and flipping between them so thought that I was bigender, but it turns out after therapy that my gender issues ran a bit deeper than that.
There is a member here that is well versed in all things DID and the effects that are caused by it, and if they see this thread then I'm sure that they will be along to add comments about it.
It is very complicated, and it takes a special person to spend the time to get to know a person like this.
But thats what she wants to do isnt it?
Fliping between male and female...
that definition you posted sounds exactly like her , yet so does the genderfluid definition ...
hhhm wait Im thinking something here...and I dont know if this will lead anywhere but whatever...
so bigender is about two genders? but for her even if she switches from female to male there might be other non binary presentations , right?the way I see it seems like,,,she would like to do more non binary things , not just male and female ...so she cant be bigender
I dont understand but is it possible to have both male and female "personas" and also others? like androgynous or other genders completely?
she said she doesnt feel either like a male or female yet she wishes to go from one to another and sometimes not even completely?
what is this? is she every possible gender out there? or none and just wants to find her path in life by experimenting?
and the thing that she said that she feels that she has multiple persons inside her ( but not like DID she kinda tried to make that clear)makes things even more complicated :(
I thought that my experience with gender stuff might be able to make somethings clear but everything becomes more and more complicated...
though I dont know guys and girls from the moment I first met her I cant stop thinking about her , almost forgeting my own dysphoria...
:(
I wonder if what I said made any sense :/
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on March 09, 2014, 10:07:30 AM
And I would add that description rather fits someone genderfluid than androgyne.
thats what I think too , but she has also said that she d like an androgynous presentation too
She sounds like she may be bigender or gender fluid, but I'm not the best at understanding non-binary stuff. In any case, it sounds like she is still in the process of finding herself and figuring out what she wants. That may take more time and experimentation. All that you as a friend can do is lend an ear and be their for her. It's something that has to come from within and at the moment it sounds like she is still finding what that is.
Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 10:30:53 AM
She sounds like she may be bigender or gender fluid, but I'm not the best at understanding non-binary stuff. In any case, it sounds like she is still in the process of finding herself and figuring out what she wants. That may take more time and experimentation. All that you as a friend can do is lend an ear and be their for her. It's something that has to come from within and at the moment it sounds like she is still finding what that is.
Seems like it ,,, cause when I asked her what are you she said I dont know...
she has all these thoughts that need to...become more clear I guess...
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on March 09, 2014, 11:11:03 AM
Which is not the same as being androgyne :) Please, trust me in this, I know :).
hhhm yeah actually , I understand it...you re right
I know that she is not androgyne thats for sure...
Can you explain to me what is the difference between bigender and genderfluid people please?
Sounds like polygender. It's like bigender but more than 2. Check out bigender.net if you want more info on bigender. There's a lot and like transgender there's as many ways to call yourself bigender as there are people who are bigender.
I'm on my phone so don't feel like typing a whole lot but I identify as polygender so if you have any questions about it, I can give you my perspective on it.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 09, 2014, 11:32:53 AM
I'm on my phone so don't feel like typing a whole lot but I identify as polygender so if you have any questions about it, I can give you my perspective on it.
Yes when you have the time please...
Actually I ve been thinking about it just now, I ve been thinking that my friend might have many genders inside her,,,genders we "know" ,gender that we dont know, binary and non binary ,,,etc...
I obvisiously just thought about it , if you explain to me maybe I ll able to understand it more...
So yeah please if you can.
LOL! What fun it is to read such speculation about non-binaries!
'I guess it must be difficult to live such a double sense of identity'.
I can't imagine what it must feel like to be so one dimensional about ones gender...
I mean that in a most nice way, I just don't understand that part of it.
A simplistic way to look at it:
It's like having a bunch on coins that almost all of them have the same image on both sides.
About half of them have a female image, the other half have a male image.
Then there are those who have two different images on each side. Non-binary.
Bigender for the most part could be seen as simply turning that coin every so often.
You have a distinct gender that changes from one binary to another.
But for so many others, it is as if that coin is on it's edge and is spinning at various speeds.
At times, you can easily distinguish one side or the other, at other times it's spinning to fast to be able to see both sides distinctly.
But the more you are able to concentrate on that spin, the easier it becomes to somewhat distinguish the two sides.
For some, the spin is too fast to be able to see anything but a blurred look at gender.
That's understandable.
If you aren't used to the idea of a gender coin having two sides, especially if you can't really understand one of the sides,
it must make that vision of gender all that much harder to see, yet still understand that it is there.
But much of this is perspective, from the coins point of view, you are all moving past them. They are static.
To see this passing by, a majority of them one gender or the other,
can make it seem like you have to have something similar to be a part of that flow going past you.
Dysphoria. That can be taken care of with talk therapy and in quite a few cases it seems, Low Dose HRT.
The idea is so foreign that you have to introduce a rare disorder that stems from trauma?
Come on,... please don't do the 'it must be some kind of mental disorder' explanation.
You don't like yourself explained away by cisgender people when they do that to you, do you?
DID isn't even remotely what it is, so stop it. Accept instead something on the order of what I explained above.
There are a lot of ways to express this, this is just one way. There many others.
The more you ask, the more you question non-binary gender, the more answers that you have that only create still more questions.
'What about, what if, well then it must be like, I'm confused and am at a loss of what to say so I think I'l ask a confusing question....'
Simple acceptance and taking the time to stand back and just learn, without all of these questions,
will go much farther in your understanding of what it is like to be non-binary.
I don't mean this in a harsh way, it's just something that I know from being non-binary for over 60 yrs.
All of which I was aware that I was different. It took until I ran across some terminology to realize how little is actually known.
This is because much of that is speculation from a one dimensional point of view.
Again, not harsh, but true.
It's understandable the difficulty in describing something that you can't really see because it is spinning in front of you.
The truth is, we are just another coin, the same as all of you.
We are not a mental disorder of split personalities. I could make a few speculations about people with DID.
But I won't, instead I just try to accept and listen instead of playing psychoanalyst.
Non-binary people don't look at binary in this kind of way. Because your the norm? No.
Because you are a kind of novelty from our perspective, all of you just passing by.
It's hard to distinguish one of you from the other when you pass by so fast...
Tell me again about what differentiates a male from a female, again.
The definitions become very blurred at some point, they become less an less distinguishable.
You just become coins. More importantly, you are just coins. Not that much different from us,
Which is just how it feels, once the binary induced dysphoria is gone.
Yep, it's true, That's where it stems from, it's the feeling from binaries that we are some kind of disorder.
Even among binaries, the confusion for some, of just which of the binary genders you are is the same thing.
Made to feel abnormal, therefore,... you have a mental disorder. It's not.
It's just called dysphoria and it comes from a majority of people failing to accept your Self.
I don't pretend to understand what it is to be binary, yet it's all around me, the gender world description comes from it.
But I don't need to understand it, I just accept it. I'm normal from my perspective, too.
It's binaries that are a blurry gender passing by. Once in a while, I do get a good look at it.
It's amazingly simplistic. Just one thing, out of so many possibilities.
It must be hard to go through life as only one version of gender?
It's not for you, your world and most everyone's is based on a binary vision of gender.
But more and more are finding that the classical version of male and female breaks down very easily.
It's a matter of perspective for all of us coins. It just depends on your viewpoint.
Accept that some of us quite simply have two different sides and we get to spin at whatever speed we like, to be comfortable.
Even if it means varying that speed, even stopping on edge for moments in time.
We decide how we spin, not the accepted idea of gender as it is envisioned by so many.
We do it to be comfortable for ourselves, not to make others feel comfortable because of their perspective.
It is multidimensional, and I can't imagine what it must be like to have a gender that is just one sided.
It's just as abnormal, yet you're just another coin, so in the bigger perspective, it really doesn't matter.
Just accepting a non-binary is the first step in understanding something you may never fully comprehend.
For a lot of people with gender dysphoria, that's the first step in fixing it.
When you can't understand others gender(s), it's dysphoria.
For many binaries, they don't get that they have this very same dysphoria about non-binaries simply because it seems normal to you.
Skip that part of it, learn to understand it, it doesn't matter. Do it one way or another.
That part of your life will become better in time. It does get better.
You've heard that so many times, and it does, but it also means broadening your perspective a little at a time.
Your understanding of non-binary gender will become so much easier to understand once your dysphoria is gone, also.
I look forward to the day you do, you all seem like such nice people. You just have this little quirk about what gender is.
You become just as adorable as the next person once you get past the damaging effect that dysphoria has on people.
Really, it's true. You're a coin, just like us.
Ativan
@Ativan Prescribed
Hhhhm thanks for this post,,,advise me a bit if you can...
Im trying to understand mostly because we arent really that different,,,I can imagine that a normal cis person might be unable to understand something like this...But I am a trans girl, just like you I had to do similar inner searching and I had to question pretty much anything that has to do with gender and also had similar pain coming from dysphoria,,,thats why I believe Im understanding this better , even if Im binary...
yet I somehow dont feel 100% binary I feel that even though my soul is female I could go between genders at will , yet my soul feels female...so I dont reaally now what I am,,,
Is this what you meant by saying that is fun to read speaculations about non binaries?
Because everyones coin is different? everyone spins it at different pace? or roll it from the edges?
Does being non binary means that you feel unique in comparison to other non binaries?do you even get to create you own gender if you like?
can everyone be different like that?
I have to admit I feel fascinated reading and learning about this stuff...
Personally for me acceptance isnt something I consider,,,I accept anything , literally...
Exactly because I understand that everyone non binary or binary is different, yet it seems that I have never imagined the extend of this diversity...
I think its truly amazing to be non binary and follow your own path...meh its actually amazing to follow your own path no matter what you are..
All I know about myself now is that I was born with a male body while my souls is female...I wonder if I ll get to know even more about this matter...
One more question pls , do non op trans people considered non binary?
(DID survivor of childhood trauma with male and female alters chiming in)
It is extremely common, almost the norm, for people suffering from DID to have male and female alters. Male alters give female trauma victims the strength they do not believe themselves to possess as women. Female alters give men a way to justify in their minds the horror of having been molested and a way to resolve the resulting sexual confusion. The leaps in understanding of trauma/PTSD over the last few decades have shown that dissociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder (DID/MPD) is much more common than it was once believed to be.
Quote from: FalsePrincessshe didnt show any signs of her personality changes,,,her personality is kinda of a mix , she acts both masculine and feminine at the same time kinda...
Dissociated personalities are not always completely discrete and the switch between them can occur many times in a single conversation. Alters often "pass" for each other and depending on their level of coconsciousness, their personalities can "bleedthrough" regardless of who is fronting.
Quote from: FalsePrincess
if she had DID im sure there would be signs or her friend would have told me already in order to not get surprised if something happens...
Not really. DID is one of the hardest psychological conditions to diagnose. Firstly because it has no unique symptoms. All of the person's behavior can be explained in much more common terms. Secondly because the condition is extremely well hidden; the person's life depended on it.
I was a healthy multiplicity, had a successful career, a wonderful marriage and a happy life. My System worked so well I wasn't even aware there were FOUR other alters who shared my body until an external event triggered decomposition of my System when I was 48. When my female alter became self-conscious and began to battle for control of the body I was diagnosed as transsexual with gender dysphoria. It took THREE years of therapy for my female alter and I to reach a level of peace before the time/memory loss and flashback characteristic of DID began to manifest.
There are many reasons a person may feel the need to express themself as more than one gender. The standard medical protocol for gender dysphoria requires a screening level of therapy to make sure the underlying cause is gender before any sort of gender transition is recommended. As this girl is currently taking antidepressants, she is likely dealing with a variety of conditions that may or may not include being transgender.
@virginia
hhhm thank you for the info and your time
so ,,, lets see...I ll need you to clarify somethings for me if you please.
So basically even if she had DID I wouldnt be able to understand it ,,,and neither would she?
Its true that she did had some childhood traumas mainly with violence from her father I dont really know that well...
From the first post Ive written do you think that is possible for her to have DID?
and in order to have DID how many alters are they usually there?
does the person understands that has alters?or is it something like a natural occurance??
The only thing that would suggest that see has DID is that she said that she feels multiple people inside her ( yet as I already said...she tried to tell me that its not DID but something else she cant understand)
so these people she feels are they her different gender identities /views of the world...or alters?
When we talk I would ask her a lot of questions , but I cant go and ask her if she thinks she has DID,,,even if she had it would hurt her a lot...
One final question my dear...
is it possible for a person with DID to live happily accepting all of his alters?
or is it more of a torture and therapy is neccesary to free yourself from this?
I dont know if this means anything, but my friend appearance wise looks like a 100% normal young woman , even the way she acts , can get masculine sometime, but its still absolutely normal...
Im sure you ve understand that until now all I knew about this is that it just is possible to happen to somebody,,,nothing more...
The answer to your questions is pretty much... Yes.
The lines between genders are becoming more blurred all the time.
Not because people don't understand, but because more people are learning to understand.
I think you understand more than you are giving yourself credit for.
The simple act of trying, of accepting is a huge step in the right direction to understanding gender.
Regardless of who's it is. Cis, Trans Binary, Non-binary.
Like I said, I don't pretend to understand it, but I'm far better off by accepting, rather than by labeling.
I think I posted something before on another topic along the lines of labels and descriptions tend to box people in.
But listening, reading peoples descriptive views of gender is far more telling.
It's a very big question that begs for an answer.
It's taking time to find those answers, but we all are doing our best to describe, to be descriptive, rather than using a description.
For me, it's nice to hear, to read those descriptive views.
I understand that it's hard not to use labels and descriptions, but they are hard to apply to such a big question.
Just what is gender? To be able to use something, to think beyond the usual accepted answers is a big step for anyone.
I don't have that much of a good answer for anyone, but I do know there are a lot of answers out there.
The validity of any of them depends on the perspective of the conversation.
It's the conversations that the answers are in. It's a good discussion.
It's something more people could do to see beyond the accepted view, the simple answer.
There is far more to it than just two sides or even combinations.
Some of those combinations are are being grouped together, yet defy needing a label.
But they are descriptive in conversation.
I really do look forward to society accepting and learning that we are by our very natures, all different, yet mostly we are the same.
I'm on that learning curve myself. I have been for many years. It does get better, as we understand more.
Society is just beginning to figure this out, that we all have something descriptive to tell them.
Their acceptance, just as ours is, is the first big step.
Virginia, I just read your post. I understand it in my own way. I went through several traumas, even near death.
I've been busy trying to relate non-binary through writing about how Ativan came to be.
It includes these traumas, and they are very hard to write about.
They are the times I think of as having been broken, mentally as well as psychically.
It's nice to know that there are better diagnoses out there.
I see a psychologist about my gender dysphoria, as it still exists in some ways.
It's gotten much better over the years.
I see a gender therapist weekly. We do go over some of that, the DID symptoms.
I haven't been strictly diagnosed with it, though.
I have a very hard time even talking about them.
It's what prompted my writing about it as the story.
I think I've found a way to describe it in terms that I understand,
and to be able to let others understand as much as I suppose is possible.
Your post answers some questions I have had to ask myself since starting to write and rewrite the story.
Thank you. I think I can go back and clean up some of the fuzzy parts of that story, now.
False Princess, at times I write about how my self becomes she or he. I don't have a way of saying it any better.
There is a duality at times, things become questionable, and then it goes back to a singularity of gender.
Those symptoms are very familiar to me, they might be for your friend.
A diagnoses would indeed be in order if they are having them
This is a good topic.
Ativan
Is she bigender? is she something else?
Look up the term "genderfluid"
Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's maybelline
Quote from: Jamie D on March 09, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Is she bigender? is she something else?
Look up the term "genderfluid"
I already did but thanks
and yes seems more fitting than bigender , but still...
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 09, 2014, 02:43:05 PM
Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's maybelline
I guess that was kinda funny :P
@Ativan
So are you guys basically saying that its hard to distinguish gender fluid non binary people from people with DID?
I can only say that I have discussed some of the symptoms of DID with my therapist.
I have with my psychologist as well in the past. He has never directly said very much about it.
Trauma can be a very hard thing to discuss openly.
Depending on what it is, it can trigger some very unwanted things, PTSD like symptoms.
For me, just digging deeper into my self is traumatic on it's own level.
Coming to grips with your gender can be hard.
The same could be easily said for DID.
I think I need to discuss this more with my therapist and psychologist.
I'm curious as to what they might think about my self, now.
I also need to research DID to get a better understanding, I think the one I have now is lacking.
Ativan
DID can mask itself as a transgender experience or many other diseases and disorders. The fact that DID systems are often comprised of alters of different gender battling for control of the body, makes it easy to misdiagnose the disorder as a transgender experience or gender dysphoria.
The problem arises from the fact that the treatment protocols for the two are completely different. Despite my insistence that transition was NOT right for me, my first GT kept insisting to me and my wife that I was a transsexual in denial. If I had followed her advise I would have destroyed the life I spent 48 years building. It took a transition level HRT regimen to control my female alters dysphoria but I didn't begin to make real progress with the underlying problem until I started psychodynamic trauma recovery therapy.
I was referred for trauma recovery therapy after being diagnosed with PTSD by my second psychologist when the flashbacks and memory/time loss began. I was re diagnosed with DID/MPD when I began psychodynamic therapy. Trauma recovery therapy is extremely painful and very very slow. It took 8 months of twice a week therapy for me to begin to recover my memories of having been molested as a child.
I have had 72 flashbacks over the last 2 years, know each and every one by name. They are the most horrible thing I have ever experienced...
I wish I able to post an "About Me" in my profile. Perhaps more detail that you are looking for but here is the one I have on bigender.net:
Multiple Personality Disorder/Dissociative Identity Disorder (MPD/DID) is often described as "disorder of secrecy," masking itself as a plethora of other conditions because the victims' lives depended on it. I began counseling in Spring 2009 for sudden acute gender dysphoria. After running a gambit of diagnoses from transsexual to PTSD, the onset of flashbacks and time loss in January 2011 were the first clear indication to my doctors that I had multiple personalities.
It is common for people with MPD/DID to have opposite gender personalities in their systems. Male alters give female trauma victims the strength they do not believe themselves to possess as women. Female alters give men a way to justify in their minds the horror of having been molested and a way to resolve the resulting sexual confusion. I was no exception. My male and female alters have nothing to do with gender. They are what the Self needed to protect itself to survive trauma. That they are male and female is the result of me not being given a "consistent gender message" in early childhood because of:
-The extreme delineation of emotions/behavior as strictly male or female in my family's late 1800's Eastern European mores
-Identity confusion during critical stages of development around age 3 in having been given my female cousin's clothes to wear by my parents
-My only playmates though age 8 being girls
I was never given the chance to develop a "solitary gender identity." An innate ability to dissociate passed on to me by my Mother, my solution was to express myself as both a male and a female as I developed alters to cope with childhood trauma.
28% of MPD/DID patients are diagnosed in their 40's or later. Whether they are aware of their system or not, they established an inner homeostasis that allowed them to present the image of having a healthy life until an external life crisis triggered decomposition. I had a successful career and 20+ years of marriage before my System became unstable.
It is common for newly self-aware alters to battle for control or to attempt to kill other personalities. In my case that struggle between my male and female selfs (2 of 5 alters discovered so far in therapy) presented itself as "gender dysphoria." A transition level HRT regimen quelled the dysphoria but it was the calm before the storm until the nightmares, flashbacks and time loss characteristic of MPD/DID began.
My System is typical of others with MPD/DID who used dissociation as a coping mechanism to survive their childhood trauma. An Inner Self Helper (ISH) and two fragment personalities (Protector who contains rage and a 7 year old, the result of the trauma leading to the first personality split who contains fear) are genderless and have little narcissistic investment. The ISH comes to conscious as needed in its supervisory capacity in the system. The frags operate quietly in the background unless triggered. The two primary alters are male and female. As is often the case with alters, they are both extremely stereotypical to function in their required rolls in the System. The female alter (Virginia) is a strong alter, hosted the System throughout Junior High. She is a bulimic 13 year old who before 2009 had not been self-aware since 1975. The product of the trauma leading to the second personality split, she contains psychological pain. The host, the personality the system chose to represent itself to the external world for the majority of its life (VA), is male, a retired married technical professional, largely devoid of emotion and contains physical pain. Both are capable of fronting for extended periods, have grown quite coconscious over the course of therapy and pass well for each other when necessary.
It took a lot of give and take to settle on a grooming ritual that was acceptable to the primary alters. Fortunately the physical effects of HRT were minimal and the body they share has many intersexed characteristics, the likely result of prenatal DES exposure. Hair, what is removed and what remains, is extremely important. The hair on the head is worn in a shoulder length grunge. Laser/electrolysis treatment returned the eyebrows to their androgynous childhood shape and removed the beard excepting a Van Dyke. The body itself is not shaved. The light vellum hair that remains post HRT does not prevent the female alter from wearing dresses or going to the beach in a bikini and is extremely important to the male alter's sense of self. The small breasts pass for well-developed pecs allowing the male alter to go without a shirt in public and are extremely important to the female alter's sense of self. The fingernails are manicured and kept an active length and the toes have a French pedicure. It is about balance; the solitary Self does not win if one gains at another's expense.
Both alters are extremely confident of who they are and are rarely misgendered. Although they enjoy expressing their maleness/femaleness with clothing, this androgynous grooming enables each to receive societal acceptance of their gender by simply coming to the front. The male alter can literally walk into the mens room in his jeans and a tee shirt, comb his hair differently and let the female alter front, and people will see him as female when he walks out.
The alters live completely separate lives ala Victor/Victoria, Tootsie or Mrs Doubtfire, each having their own wardrobes, friends and interests. They do not identify as trangender and it is vital to each that they are perceived by the people in their respective worlds as the man/woman they are. Any crossover in their worlds would destroy the doublethink used to maintain the delusion of being separate people. It would be catastrophic to the Self for the boundaries that contain the feelings and memories held by each personality to break down. A handful of people in both of their worlds know I am DID, but they understand the personality they know (either male or female primary alter) to be the System host.
The male alter is the more robust of the two. As agreed to by the System and the male alter's wife, he controls the body 5 days a week and the female the other 2. Triggered personality shifts remain beyond the system's control and the Self is generally unaware of which alter is fronting. The female alter does respect the male alter's wife's wishes that she not use her voice or wear her clothes in her presence and passes as the male alter when she needs his wife's companionship. This balance has been reasonably stable since 2010. It took 2 ½ years of cognitive therapy for the male and female alters to come to peace with each other before they were able to begin to explore the pain of my childhood. I have been in twice a week psychodynamic trauma therapy since June 2012.
My conscious mind has slowly begun to allow itself to experience the feelings the alters have held in silence for 45+ years. Yoga has become an instrumental part of the path to acceptance. Piecing together the events of my childhood with my adult mind I am beginning to understand my childhood for what it was, how my innocence, my freedom to think and feel and be were stolen from me, that I cannot be the person I am as an effeminate man, a crossdresser or any transgender expression of solitary self. And the role HRT has played in meeting my need not to propagate as a victim of childhood trauma and rape.
In God's infinite wisdom, the Self found a way to survive the childhood trauma that would have led to suicide. Given the time my System has existed, only continued therapy will show the extent to which personality fusion is possible. But after 54 years I am finally beginning to understand myself, why I relate to people the way I do and to see the benefits of an integrated existence. There is a different kind of pain in fitting the pieces together into a bigger and bigger picture but the consolation of truth is peace.
A few things I have learned about MPD/DID:
Time/memory loss is a primary characteristic of dissociation, and trauma based dissociative identities/personalities are a psychological disorder. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and MPD/DID have received a tremendous amount of attention because of the widespread problems experienced by veterans coming back from the Middle East and the horrible devastating effect these conditions have on a victim's life.
The relationship between trauma and MPD/DID is so well established, patients are assumed to have experienced childhood trauma unless the therapist determines otherwise. The narcissistic personalities the Self uses to express itself to the world do not have access to the memories of trauma held by the personalities that contain them. Patients with MPD/DID are in deep denial of their condition, often going to jail or turning to alcohol/drugs rather than facing the reality of their disorder or reliving the horror of the childhood trauma that caused it. I stonewalled my therapist's hints that that my childhood was less than perfect and that I had been molested for nearly two years with the self delusion that I was transgender.
Personalities often perceive themselves to have existed since birth because in a sense they have. In my case the original personality can be thought of as a chocolate bar with the alters being the individual pieces. Each piece will always have its memory of being part of the whole bar. But its coconsciousness of the whole ends when it was broken off. All five of the alters in my System perceived themselves to have existed since birth, each insisting they were the "original" personality. It took over a year of twice weekly psychodynamic therapy for me to begin to put together the memories each of them had so I could understand this was not the case.
It is common for an alter's psychological age to correspond to the host's age at the time of specific trauma events related to the dissociation that caused the split. Children are oblivious to my adult body and play with the 7 year old in my System like any other kid at the park. My 13 year old female alter is preoccupied with her looks and friends like any adolescent. She has the classic bulimia associated with young girls who were subjected to early childhood trauma. I am the host, what is left of the chocolate and the original personality.
Experiencing consciousness only as the Self calls on them to cope with trauma alters live a piecewise existence. It was a horrible shock and adjustment to the female alter when she became self aware in 2009. It wasn't 1975; the world she knew did not exist anymore. Originally diagnosed as gender dysphoria, my female alter was actually suffering extreme body dyphoria because of the disconnect between what she remembered my body as being when I was a preteen and what it had become as a 49 year old man.
People with MPD/DID must come to their own peace with the reality that their recovered memories are true and not false memories created in therapy. Our adult brains have a difficult time accepting/understanding the way our undeveloped child's brain remembered the knowledge of trauma. Unlike an adult mind's concrete images and facts, a child's mind stores information as feelings, sense/body memories, shadows and imagery.
The recovered memories that surfaced as emotional flashbacks, nightmares, snippets and feelings for me all pointed to what I knew without knowing and did not want to be true. Despite my therapist's objective perspectives, I persisted with the doublethink that had protected me for a lifetime. Despite the pictures in the family album, the consistency of the facts from my childhood my adult mind did remember with my recovered memories, I continued to delude myself that it was all just coincidence. The recovered memory became real when my Mother confirmed I had been raped.
A therapist's objective perspective is vital to the process of setting the historical record straight so the MPD/DID patient can begin to understand the things that happened to them as child with their adult mind. Accepting the thoughts and feelings they protected themself from with dissociation they can begin to rediscover the Self, and begin make their own choices for the first time in their life.
A common end result of therapy, the current methodology is not to merge personalities (fusion) but to help them work together so the patient can live a peaceful happy life. The degree to which personalities integrate the way they interact or fuse into fewer personalities is determined by what the System perceives to be in its own best interest with its new understanding of Self. It has always been and always will be that way for the dissociative person.
Excellent references:
Childhood Antecedents of Multiple Personality Disorders, Kluft et al
Soul Murder: The Effects of Childhood Abuse and Deprivation, Shengold
Breaking Free; My Life with Dissociative Identity Disorder, Herschel Walker
Quote from: FalsePrincessSo basically even if she had DID I wouldnt be able to understand it ,,,and neither would she?
It took me 48 years to come to realize I was DID, has taken five years of therapy and thousands of hours of therapy to begin to understand my System.
Quote from: FalsePrincessand in order to have DID how many alters are they usually there?
My System of five alters is very typical. I am the host, what remains of the birth personality. I handle physical pain and the tasks of day to day life. The child alter handles fear; the female alter psychological pain; the Protector Rage and the Inner Self Helper (ISH) acts as a master computer to orchestrate the alters in the best interest of the Self.
Quote from: FalsePrincessdoes the person understands that has alters?or is it something like a natural occurance??
Not until the alters become coconsious. I didn't know I had alters for 48 years; it is all we know and seems completely natural.
Quote from: FalsePrincessso these people she feels are they her different gender identities /views of the world...or alters?
If she has DID, this would be the case. Although I am coconsciousness with my female alter (the only other narcissistic alter in my System) I am not privy to all of her thoughts, feeling and memories. She is a strong alter, fronts nearly as well as I do, was my System host during junior high. We live completely separate lives. She fronts 2 days a week, I front the rest. She wears bikinis to the beach, has her girlfriends at yoga; I go bare-chested in the summer and have been married for over 20 years. Neither of our genders is ever questioned. Only my immediate family and medical professionals know I am DID. They rest of the people in our lives know each of us as the cisgender people we are.
Quote from: FalsePrincessis it possible for a person with DID to live happily accepting all of his alters?
Yes, that is the goal of therapy.
Quote from: FalsePrincessis it more of a torture and therapy is neccesary to free yourself from this?
The development of dissociative identities is an amazing coping mechanism that saved the self from insanity or death. 28% of MPD/DID patients are diagnosed in their 40's or later. Whether they are aware of their system or not, they established an inner homeostasis that allowed them to present the image of having a healthy life until an external life crisis triggered decomposition. Having dissociative identities only become a "disorder" when the coping mechanism begins to negatively impact a persons ability to live their daily life.
Quote from: FalsePrincessI dont know if this means anything, but my friend appearance wise looks like a 100% normal young woman , even the way she acts , can get masculine sometime, but its still absolutely normal...
It doesn't mean a thing. Many "normal" people are dissociative. I am actually a retired graduate level engineer, solidly cisgender and enjoy everything about being a guy. It's my role in my System. Same for my female alter. No one in her world ever questions that she is anything other than the cisgender woman she is. To everyone except the handful of people who know about my DID, we are both completely "normal."
Thanks for sharing all your experiences virginia, I wanted to do that bc that was the impression i was getting but I am not really DID, just dissociative with parts (cuz of my BPD), I don't lose time almost ever even when regressing or something. But hugs to you if you want them from another survivor and happy to hear that you figured things out :)
Indeed thank you for the info and thanks to everyone else who posted...I think I ve learned too many things today :)
So I tried to reach a conclusion for my friend before I go to sleep...
I actually believe that she is trigender since except the clear male and female part inside her there is also a mix of those too...
I dont think she has DID considering everything, there might be a tiny chance , but I doubt it...
When we talked I got the feeling that i was talking to a single person/soul that has the need to present as / is multiple genders and has multiple styles...but I still felt that she is a single person somehow...
I ll leave it like this for tonight.
ty guys
Virginia, that totally blows me away, your 'about me' from bigender.net.
Like Emily said, an excellent review and base line.
I know what I go through, and your experiences are far more extensive than mine.
I refer to she and he, along with my self. Only because I don't know of a better way to write it.
There have been times of separation, but it is in opinions, not of my self.
A question, a circumstance, an event. I have generally a couple opinions, my she and he.
Most of the time they are in agreement to the degree that it is just my self that has an opinion and deals with it.
There are very distinctive times where there are different opinions, she and he don't always agree.
But it is still my self. Simply put, two sides to my gender.
The PTSD type of experiences have some of this quality in them, but only to the extent as above.
They are like being lost in the memories of some violent events, some of my own doing.
I pretty much blank out what is actually going on around me in real time and don't recall what happened.
They are mainly about the event themselves. I don't lose my sense of self.
Even if she and he aren't in agreement about the event.
They both have their own unique qualities for the most part.
They both share the same range of emotions and intelligence.
At times they have, out of necessity, changed their roles that they normally play.
So they are interchangeable to a degree.
But I still wonder at times if I'm just telling myself this, to justify something that I'm not aware of.
The part of therapy I don't like, is realizations I didn't see coming, but I suppose I really did know, all along.
Your experiences are massive compared to mine.
You're a stronger person than me.
Take care...
Ativan
Thank you, everyone, for your kind word and thoughts.
Mine has been a sea of tears and searing agony, exaggerated by a horrible horrible mistake made by my Gender Therapist. We are often not in a position to stand far enough away from ourselves to know what we need. The Standards of Care exist for good reason. I tell my story not to boast or to belittle, but so others can learn, understand that a person's need to express themself as their GNAAB can have nothing whatsoever to do with being transgender.
First of I will say good credit for you and her friends to be there for her, it sure always important with suport you know. you don't need to be worry on not understanding it complitely, simple because we are trans* dosent mean we all get each others identity (I find it pretty difficult to related to female crossdressers exemple) it just important that you do make an efford as you do.
I learn an easy way by a straight guy. He got a gay son where he said he did not understand how his son could love another man, but he did understood what it was like to love someone ells. so maybe you can think it simular patterns when theres something you find very difficult to relate with.
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I can't speak so much of experience but I do have a friend who identify somewhere into the non-binary, she looks like a typical girl but she dosen't identify 100% as female. I dont exactly know the identety if its bigender, genderfluid, thirdgender or whatever but I dont think it the most important point either.
as labels can be good somethimes they can other times also be very confussing. I am currently in a project where I am to educate about this stuff, and we explain it with there is 2 boxes of genderoles for male and female. outside of this boxes theres a bigger box which is called sociaty.
if you for exemple: are inside the female/girl box it means you fit well into the norm on how your gender should be. if you go alittle outside the box you get into some trans or gender-breaking category on people who break the cis-norm in a way or another. People here could be transexual, tomboys, butch, genderqueer, and so on..
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2F2ah9n2p.jpg&hash=b93f0d36adf0b7f2deae4a905f05ce6836a7ab7e)
but there also exist people who live outside the box of sociaty in a category we do not have words for. So as well she may be bigender or genderfluent she may also a mix of diffrent labels or a category which we dont have a name for yet, (or maybe we do but its not available in your country/sociaty).
due to that I think it pretty important not to put so much focus in what label she is but more what she prefern, nobody knows herself better than herself after all, and if she is into a period on figuring herself out then just give her all the time and options she will need.
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speaking of pronouncing I think a mix of he and she works pretty fine, I do that for a couple of people who dont care. at first it was confussing but I usunally figure out a certain pattern, like if its a dragqueen ex then when she is in her femme mode its she and her as more masculine its he. I also try gender neutral pronouncing but like in Greece we dont really have that in the country other than adopting words used in the lgbt (and not even that often) or "it" is the closest you get.
I know one transwoman who spoke spanish or hebrew (I dont remember which of the languarges exactly)
she said she simplely mixed the female and male ways of speaking to make it genderneutral the same way people mix He and she to get "zhe" I have tried it the same way with mixing he and she pronouncing and it worked fine for me, but yeah it sure also depend, prononcing can always get abit difficult in our sociaty.
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Btw. I made a translation for a long time ago.
its wrotte by a woman who dosen't feel 100% female, and it a collection on poems, art, and self reflection text she had.
maybe your friends would like to read it I dont know. but I post the link here.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/175639242/Body-Impossible
wow thanks for this post ,
I can understand the box, I mean I think that Im not even considered 100% female , I dont think that having a penis makes you less female etc
and I can see how others can have that kind of eeer how should I say it , non normal thoughts?
Im glad I started this thread and met this person , Im feeling that im learning so many things, I knew that everyone is different but not to that extend , to the extend that someone can be and feel so unique that we have no words to address him/her or whatever..
In the end we re all humans , spirits , souls whatever , some get a body that really fits them , some dont and try to change it , some feel limited , some dont even want to acknowledge a body etc etc , its magnifiscent.
And all this has made me thinking , how do I know im a woman? what is a woman anyways? If im not a normal woman what am I? surely not a man...
at the end I see myself as a soul , a really feminine soul that in order to find her place in this world choses to be a woman and not a man,,,
but after all this I cant just see myself as something so fragile as female or male, in a sense , I still dont understand.
Once I asked my mom about this and she said that she doesnt feel neither male or female but rather a human, the female part its just what feels natural for her...
complicated.
Anyway I read the journal , it was really amazing and Im sure my friend would love to read it
I understand what the person who wrote it means , we are kinda limited thus somethings are considered "normal"
so what if you dont want to be what is considered normal? sometimes its even impossible , its impossible for that person and my friend to change completely from female to male and again...its impossible to chose and be both physically , no matter if you feel like that inside you...
sigh...
Ty again for this post I dont know if I ll be able to do it , but I ll try to understand the diversity of the world and the human soul .
But even If I cant , acceptance and love is enough .
Very interesting, deep topic.
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 12, 2014, 05:34:20 PM
Once I asked my mom about this and she said that she doesnt feel neither male or female but rather a human, the female part its just what feels natural for her...
That is actually very close to my idea of what "gender fluid" is. Being able to integrate aspects of both at will, where "bigendered" is flipping back and forth between the two and "androgynous" purposefully attempts to obliterate the distinction. After all gender is mostly just mental self-image.
Quote
Ty again for this post I dont know if I ll be able to do it , but I ll try to understand the diversity of the world and the human soul .
But even If I cant , acceptance and love is enough .
And if we had more of that attitude the world would be a nicer place.
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 12, 2014, 05:34:20 PM
And all this has made me thinking , how do I know im a woman? what is a woman anyways? If im not a normal woman what am I? surely not a man...
at the end I see myself as a soul , a really feminine soul that in order to find her place in this world choses to be a woman and not a man,,,
but after all this I cant just see myself as something so fragile as female or male, in a sense , I still dont understand.
Once I asked my mom about this and she said that she doesnt feel neither male or female but rather a human, the female part its just what feels natural for her...
complicated.
Anyway I read the journal , it was really amazing and Im sure my friend would love to read it
I understand what the person who wrote it means , we are kinda limited thus somethings are considered "normal"
so what if you dont want to be what is considered normal? sometimes its even impossible , its impossible for that person and my friend to change completely from female to male and again...its impossible to chose and be both physically , no matter if you feel like that inside you...
sigh...
I think it just important to get in some kind of flow with yourself on what feels best and most natural, true theres limits which sucks, theres both a limit in the norm on what consider normal or not, and theres a limit in what exactly is posible.
I think first option people can still do alot if they are brave and got the right chances. for the body part well yeah unfurtunatly that not really an option, so I guess the only thing one can do is to think what they prefern or could live with.