I was just treated to a multi-page, profanity laced, diatribe on the local transgender facebook group. I posted on my local transgender facebook group about being evaluated for my second surgery letter (my GT already sent my first), where I said that I didn't want a doctor substituting his judgment based on an hour or two with me for mine based on more than a year of soul-searching.
I was treated to an insulting, multi-page profanity-laced diatribe from one of the post-op women.
She went on and on about how the fact that I didn't care what the doctor said meant that I was rushing into surgery and probably wasn't emotionally ready for it. (That's a MUCH more polite distillation of pages of complete vitriol).
This isn't the first time this has happened. The doctor I saw for my second letter, had a similar reaction – almost a disdain for my judgment. Before him, a psychiatrist that had evaluated me before I went into therapy made it much more plain that he had contempt for my ability to tell what was good for me and even more for my opinion that I knew better than he did.
Where is this anger coming from?
Why does it make so many people so mad when a trans woman thinks she knows what she needs?
Probably two places - personal experiences and sexism. They had to jump through hoops, so you should too and that women are never seen as competent authorities on their own experience (and these women have bought that).
Quote from: FA on March 13, 2014, 11:13:05 AM
Probably two places - personal experiences and sexism. They had to jump through hoops, so you should too and that women are never seen as competent authorities on their own experience (and these women have bought that).
This.
Plus, it's not PC to say this, but there is a lot of serious mental illness in the trans* community. Some degree of screening probably does make sense due to that. But some carry the idea that it is needed a little too far.
And then, of course, there are the transphobic folks. I did not know there was a local transgender Facebook group, but I do know some of the local LGBT groups just reek of transphobia.
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 13, 2014, 11:06:42 AM
This isn't the first time this has happened. The doctor I saw for my second letter, had a similar reaction – almost a disdain for my judgment. Before him, a psychiatrist that had evaluated me before I went into therapy made it much more plain that he had contempt for my ability to tell what was good for me and even more for my opinion that I knew better than he did.
This is the very reason I did an end run around the entire process, I have a BS detector, know when I'm being jerked around and a very short fuze!
I have encountered people like that before too, but being as I am not quite as far along in the process it was a rather scathing response to me going on hormones without the SOC recommended of 3 months of therapy/RLE. The way I see it, people many time view doctors and even therapists as almost infallible but, I know very well that they are. I also know myself.
I am not sure if I will be able to avoid all of the "process" like Shantel, but I will if I can. I am me, I know me, my choices are my own, and I know what I want, I have known for some time. I won't have permission to live my own life.
I am finding that there is only a small minority of the medical community that thinks your knowledge or even your needs matter at all. Like, you have to convince them what you want was their idea or they will reject it outright, and that honestly just makes me very mad. I have experienced less of that from transgender people online, but I have not only in avoiding the SOC but also in doing things in the order I do. Apparently there is some list out there and if you don't do things exactly in the order that they expect the sky will fall.
Some people just like to be condescending and act like they know it all. It makes them feel better about themselves.
That isn't just limited to trans issues.
It says more about them than it does about you.
Some people are just wildly immature jerks and have no idea how to express themselves without being unpleasant. I think you should exercise the Report and Ignore functions of FB!
I think what Phoenix said is true. There's a lot of mental illness amongst trans people, and there are a lot of mentally ill people who think transition is the answer. I can see why some people are resistant to the idea of someone being able to get it quickly - there could be regrets down the road (not for you necessarily, just in general).
That said, I think what FA said is true as well. Some people think "I had to struggle for it, so should you, why should you get it easier than me?"
Quote from: birkin on March 13, 2014, 08:55:44 PM
I think what Phoenix said is true. There's a lot of mental illness amongst trans people, and there are a lot of mentally ill people who think transition is the answer.
Sorry, but I have to take issue here with what you just said, so I hope that you take it in the spirit in which it's meant and not as an attack for saying it.
There is a high incidence of depression among transgender people. Most of it is caused by the pressure to conform, needing and wanting to "pass", to "fit in", to be "accepted" and to be seen as "normal". There is also a large proportion who feel that surgery will correct all of that for them, when surgery is merely a part of the process for people who choose it. The HRT portion of transition is the most important part, but comes with a price tag - and that is that it can cause depression to worsen on occasion. It can also lift depression in some people. The key to transition is not to single out someone with a psychiatric condition in the trans* community, but to understand that a large portion of what you may be observing, is merely situational and due TO their transition and unrealistic expectations of what transition means. This is why I always recommend that anyone considering a transition works with a therapist, even if they do not appear to have any depression or other psychiatric condition.
Kelsie
Hi Suzy,
I'll be more general - it sounds like "teh internet" happened to you. I don't see this as a trans-specific issue. Take a topic, any topic, and there are some people online willing to 'do battle' over it. You have to weed out a lot of crazy to get to the few nice people on the web. You just drew the short straw.
As for her leaving pages upon pages of vitriol for you:
"The definition of a zealot is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject."
Cheers,
- Jesse
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 13, 2014, 11:06:42 AM
This isn't the first time this has happened. The doctor I saw for my second letter, had a similar reaction – almost a disdain for my judgment. Before him, a psychiatrist that had evaluated me before I went into therapy made it much more plain that he had contempt for my ability to tell what was good for me and even more for my opinion that I knew better than he did.
I've seen this in the medical community in general. The "my educated opinion is more valid than your experience" syndrome. About three years ago I had to have my gallbladder removed. It was packed full of stones, and one of them eventually ended up blocking the common bile duct.
I'd been battling the EXCRUCIATING pain of passing stones for 6 months. I knew what it was based upon an hour of research on the internet, but, in 16 trips to the ER and 4 trips to my GP I was never able to convince anyone it was my gallbladder. I kept being told I just had really bad heartburn, and that I was too young and the wrong gender for it to be my gallbladder. That probably would've kept going on forever, had I not noticed gallstones in my poop one day after a particularly agonizing attack, and I went so far as to fish that out and bring it in to the doctor. Thats when they finally decided to do bloodwork and an ultrasound, and low and behold my liver function markers were all out of whack, my gallbladder was PACKED with stones, and I had a stone blocking the CBD.
So, it has nothing to do with being trans, and everything to do with some people being completely and totally self absorbed with their own sense of self importance.
Quote from: KelsieJ on March 13, 2014, 09:10:37 PM
Sorry, but I have to take issue here with what you just said, so I hope that you take it in the spirit in which it's meant and not as an attack for saying it.
I for one am not at all offended, and I appreciate your chiming in with a contrary view. Although I'm not sure we disagree all that much really.
Quote from: KelsieJ on March 13, 2014, 09:10:37 PM
There is a high incidence of depression among transgender people. Most of it is caused by the pressure to conform, needing and wanting to "pass", to "fit in", to be "accepted" and to be seen as "normal". There is also a large proportion who feel that surgery will correct all of that for them, when surgery is merely a part of the process for people who choose it. The HRT portion of transition is the most important part, but comes with a price tag - and that is that it can cause depression to worsen on occasion. It can also lift depression in some people. The key to transition is not to single out someone with a psychiatric condition in the trans* community, but to understand that a large portion of what you may be observing, is merely situational and due TO their transition and unrealistic expectations of what transition means. This is why I always recommend that anyone considering a transition works with a therapist, even if they do not appear to have any depression or other psychiatric condition.
Kelsie
Well, two things. First of all, not everyone is the same. So HRT for some people is the most important thing. For others it isn't. Different strokes for different folks.
Second, I both agree and disagree about the mental/emotional issues. At this point I've seen and met and talked with hundreds, if not thousands, of trans* people. With so many you do start to notice some things. I agree that there is a lot of depression (and anxiety) in trans* people. It can be caused by experiences related to transitioning or by unrealistic expectations (very common!) about transition. It can also be related to the dysphoria pre-transition. In either case it may clear up at some point during or after transition. It's also interesting to see the surprising ways people just seem to get more functional when they transition at times.
But I also encounter a lot of things in trans* people that I see a lot less of in the general public. Autism is a big one. OCD is another. Then I talk with counselors and doctors who tell me about high prevalence of disassociative personality disorder and other personality disorders in trans* populations. They also confirm things lie the correlation with autism. Now, of course correlation is not causation and I am emphatically NOT saying that being trans* makes people mentally ill. But I do believe we are a population that has many of those things going on at a higher rate than the general public. And it makes sense to me to have some safeguards built in to make sure that such a population is going in for major surgery with eyes wide open, having thought it through and understood it, and not because of some sort of mental illness.
I think this is a mixture of circumstances that have been put forward already.
Firstly some people, and I will include myself, needed a bit of help from a therapist, mainly to go through my life and sort some stuff out, secondly to make sure I understood my options and what was going to happen to me and thirdly to have someone to sort through any issues that may crop up. I was ready to go after three sessions, by a local law I have to keep in touch with my therapist every 3 months or so to make sure I'm OK, that is a 10 min appointment.
I'm fine, no issues and happy, some other women I know have needed prolonged interaction with their therapist to sort through issues and were not ready as quickly as I and in some cases are still not ready to 'take the leap'.
They can get a bit jealous of people like me who don't have any problems. Sadly human jealousy manifests in many ways, sometimes by the sort of rubbish that Suzi has been subjected to. In my case I ignore it, feel bad that someone hates me so much and rise above it with a smile, glad that I am OK.
It happens in all walks of life, people get jealous of others good fortune be it winning some money, getting a good job, having some good luck.
As for professionals in the field who express such silly opinions I would neither consider them professional nor people who should be working in the area as they are demonstrably too ignorant to perform their duty to their clients.
These are small people who live small lives. I just feel sorry for them and move on.
Quote from: Cindy on March 14, 2014, 12:38:14 AM
These are small people who live small lives. I just feel sorry for them and move on.
^This^ Nice one, Cindy. On a side note, this is why I don't waste any hatred upon people that should simply be pitied.
Quote from: Cindy on March 14, 2014, 12:38:14 AM
As for professionals in the field who express such silly opinions I would neither consider them professional nor people who should be working in the area as they are demonstrably too ignorant to perform their duty to their clients.
These are small people who live small lives. I just feel sorry for them and move on.
Ironically, a study on the prevalence of four different mental disorders in children and teenagers was just published a couple of days ago. Here's the punch line: "Compared to the control group, gender variance was found to be 7.59 times more common in participants with [autism spectrum disorder]. It was also found 6.64 times more often in participants with ADHD." Here's a link to a summary. The link to the published research appears at the bottom of the page linked to:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140312103102.htm
I understand that trans* people would not want to believe that mental/neurological problems are correlated with trans* status. I too get more than a little sick of hearing that we are all defective people. I am fond of saying that trans* people are not born defective, but we are born spicy. As in the spice of life.
But at the same time, all medical/scientific evidence I know of seems to indicate that certain mental issues are more common in trans* spectrum individuals, although not saying that they cause trabs* status or are caused by trans* status. If you have any evidence to the contrary! please do bring it forward so that we all may be better informed. Otherwise I can only say that we are probably best served by grappling with unpleasant realities like this.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 14, 2014, 08:38:20 AM
Ironically, a study on the prevalence of four different mental disorders in children and teenagers was just published a couple of days ago. Here's the punch line: "Compared to the control group, gender variance was found to be 7.59 times more common in participants with [autism spectrum disorder]. It was also found 6.64 times more often in participants with ADHD." Here's a link to a summary. The link to the published research appears at the bottom of the page linked to:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140312103102.htm
I understand that trans* people would not want to believe that mental/neurological problems are correlated with trans* status. I too get more than a little sick of hearing that we are all defective people. I am fond of saying that trans* people are not born defective, but we are born spicy. As in the spice of life.
But at the same time, all medical/scientific evidence I know of seems to indicate that certain mental issues are more common in trans* spectrum individuals, although not saying that they cause trabs* status or are caused by trans* status. If you have any evidence to the contrary! please do bring it forward so that we all may be better informed. Otherwise I can only say that we are probably best served by grappling with unpleasant realities like this.
I am in no way denying that many people with gender incongruence suffer from comorbidities, that is well recognised and clearly understood by professionals in the area. What I argue is professionals who have inadequate training and fail to understand the clinical nature of their clients are failing their clients and failing their fellow professionals by misrepresenting the help and care that is both needed and required.
If I understand Suzi's comments in the OP correctly, she was rejected by professionals who should not have done so. They suggested to her opinion that was incorrect in her case. That is a failure in care.
In the clinic I am involved with we have about 60% of clients who need little more than a case history study, a proper analysis of the clients situation and referral to the medical team to deal for hormonal and surgical reassignment as required by the individual according to their desire and need. The 40% who require further psychiatric therapy need that as ongoing treatment, the timeline of which varies according to the client's requirements. Most of that 40% do have satisfactory outcomes eventually, either in achieving a reassignment but more importantly for some to achieve living happily without reassignment.
It is important to be able to distinguish the cohorts at a clinical level. Professionals who are inadequately trained to do so cause inordinate grief to both groups.
Quote from: Cindy on March 14, 2014, 09:06:38 AM
I am in no way denying that many people with gender incongruence suffer from comorbidities, that is well recognised and clearly understood by professionals in the area. What I argue is professionals who have inadequate training and fail to understand the clinical nature of their clients are failing their clients and failing their fellow professionals by misrepresenting the help and care that is both needed and required.
If I understand Suzi's comments in the OP correctly, she was rejected by professionals who should not have done so. They suggested to her opinion that was incorrect in her case. That is a failure in care.
In the clinic I am involved with we have about 60% of clients who need little more than a case history study, a proper analysis of the clients situation and referral to the medical team to deal for hormonal and surgical reassignment as required by the individual according to their desire and need. The 40% who require further psychiatric therapy need that as ongoing treatment, the timeline of which varies according to the client's requirements. Most of that 40% do have satisfactory outcomes eventually, either in achieving a reassignment but more importantly for some to achieve living happily without reassignment.
It is important to be able to distinguish the cohorts at a clinical level. Professionals who are inadequately trained to do so cause inordinate grief to both groups.
Ahhhhh, I think I understand now. I misunderstood originally. My apologies. I thought you were responding to birkin and me about the existence of those comorbid conditions.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 14, 2014, 08:38:20 AM
Ironically, a study on the prevalence of four different mental disorders in children and teenagers was just published a couple of days ago. Here's the punch line: "Compared to the control group, gender variance was found to be 7.59 times more common in participants with [autism spectrum disorder]. It was also found 6.64 times more often in participants with ADHD." Here's a link to a summary. The link to the published research appears at the bottom of the page linked to:
I don't really understand what you are getting at. None of those things mean that the transperson doesn't understand what they want, or should have to jump through additional hoops, or justify the medical community brushing off their concerns because they think they know what is better for the patient than the patient does.
Regardless,
I don't have any of those conditions, and I certainly shouldn't be treated as if I do. Particularity any depression I had basically went away when I made the decision to transition, knowing there was a way to at least get closer to who I am solved that...but, apparently because it is so common to be depressed some have questioned my desire and need to transition; which is ludicrous that is the very thing that stopped me from being depressed! On the other side of it, some people have questioned if I am depressed and not telling anyone, which is infuriating because
I know how I feel. If someone in a particular demographic and age group is likely to have high blood pressure but doesn't have it the doctor doesn't just act as if they do.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 14, 2014, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: Cindy on March 14, 2014, 12:38:14 AM
As for professionals in the field who express such silly opinions I would neither consider them professional nor people who should be working in the area as they are demonstrably too ignorant to perform their duty to their clients.
These are small people who live small lives. I just feel sorry for them and move on.
Ironically, a study on the prevalence of four different mental disorders in children and teenagers was just published a couple of days ago. Here's the punch line: "Compared to the control group, gender variance was found to be 7.59 times more common in participants with [autism spectrum disorder]. It was also found 6.64 times more often in participants with ADHD." Here's a link to a summary. The link to the published research appears at the bottom of the page linked to:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140312103102.htm
This is interesting. I just read the summary, but I wonder if the study showed whether more ftms were on the autism spectrum. We have quite a few here and it would make sense, since autism is said to be like having an 'extreme male brain'.
The prevalence of personality disorders would make sense as well, since gender issues are a factor in some, such as BPD. And of course, growing up the wrong gender could well lead to mental health issues.
Not a problem, my fault for not being clear originally.
Out of interest most, if not all gender therapy clinics world wide are having an exponential growth in referrals,which is causing major problems, many new clients are suffering ASD as a primary comorbidity, the degree of effect is of course variable. I have a hypothesis for the exponential growth in referrals that I am testing by questionnaire, that it may be linked by access to supportive websites. At the recent WPATH conference, professionals were astounded by the size of websites such as Susan's; they had no idea that such level of communication existed.
This in itself causes problems, in Asia (my neck of the woods as a professional in Australia) I and my colleagues are wondering how to help 25 million plus transgender people many of whom have internet access but little medical resource except by the sex trade. The social and health issues are profound and myriad.
Hikari, depression is not regarded as as a comorbidity in gender incongruent people unless it has parasuicidal tendencies. In fact depression is 'normal' and that depression is resolved in GI by access to HRT therapy is extremely common and well accepted.
Quote from FA
The prevalence of personality disorders would make sense as well, since gender issues are a factor in some, such as BPD. And of course, growing up the wrong gender could well lead to mental health issues.
Unquote
BPD = bipolar disease?
This is the bane of the therapists life. Clinically you have to treat both at the same time and they interact. You have to distinguish between 'true' gender incongruence and the side effects of being bipolar. If you make a mistake you screw someones life.
I have a client at the moment, lets call her Joan, Joan wants breasts and to live as a woman, she really wants breasts. Six months ago she was John, who had no inkling of Joan, John was an aggressive heterosexual male. I asked Joan what would John do if he came back and found he had breasts. The answer was immediate 'He would kill you'. Now ask your self, as a therapist what would you do?
Now I'm easy, I went to a therapist and said 'I'm Cindy, help me please' They did.
You make the call between Cindy, Joan and John. What would you do?
BPD = borderline personality disorder.
And your client Joan sounds like they are suffering some sort of disassociative disorder. Pretty much screams disassociative over gender dysphoria.
Quote from: Cindy
As for professionals in the field who express such silly opinions I would neither consider them professional nor people who should be working in the area as they are demonstrably too ignorant to perform their duty to their clients..
+1 :)
Hugs
Kelsie
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 12:43:11 PM
BPD = borderline personality disorder.
And your client Joan sounds like they are suffering some sort of disassociative disorder. Pretty much screams disassociative over gender dysphoria.
And Joan wants immediate access to HRT, I'm refusing ? So I'm gatekeeping?
Um, nothing I said there implied gatekeeping, so not sure why you are asking that. Unless you are afraid that is what you are doing.
John/Joan, as I said above scream some type of dissociative disorder, not gender dysphoria. I hesitate to say it's dissociative identity disorder, given how rare the condition truly is and the way you've describe it kinda leads away from that diagnosis.
However he is dissociating something fierce to the point of display a secondary persona that is far disconnected from his identity with complete wants and desires that run counter to his wants and desires. Everything in that screams dissociation, especially the fact that two sides being displayed are so at odds in desire that one would kill over it. Dissociative disorders are far far from gender dysphoria. They are their own category, and still very much categorized disorder for good reason.
Not giving the okay for hrt because a dissociative patient's alter (for lack of a more appropriate term) wants it while the core is devotely against is not gatekeeping. Because this patient is not gender dysphoric. He seemingly has a female alter that has decided she can do anything she wants to his body against his desires. Heal the dissociative issues that has created the break in him. Because as Joan stated willingly, transitioning won't do anything but make it worse.
Gatekeeping is withholding hrt and transitioning from a true gender dysphoric person because you disagree with the existence of GD or are too bigotted to help a trans person, but don't want to flat out refuse so they don't go elsewhere to get the okay. They will usually diagnose some other disorder citing only the dysphoria as a symptom to prove it.
The want to transition was not even a factor in me thinking John/Joan is dissociative and not dysphoric. Everything else is what screams dissociation, if you are worried that withholding hrt is gatekeeping here, don't be. And don't be scared to seek a second opinion on your diagnosis from a colleague if you have doubts.
Quote from: FA on March 14, 2014, 09:48:19 AM
Ironically, a study on the prevalence of four different mental disorders in children and teenagers was just published a couple of days ago. Here's the punch line: "Compared to the control group, gender variance was found to be 7.59 times more common in participants with [autism spectrum disorder]. It was also found 6.64 times more often in participants with ADHD." Here's a link to a summary. The link to the published research appears at the bottom of the page linked to:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140312103102.htm
This is interesting. I just read the summary, but I wonder if the study showed whether more ftms were on the autism spectrum. We have quite a few here and it would make sense, since autism is said to be like having an 'extreme male brain'.
The prevalence of personality disorders would make sense as well, since gender issues are a factor in some, such as BPD. And of course, growing up the wrong gender could well lead to mental health issues.
Thanks for that link. This is something that needs attention. I was just reading DSM-V in school library about comorbidity associated with gender identity issues and I find it kind of scary that various autism spectrum disorders are common comorbidities for many of the children and adolescents being accepted for gender reassignment. I think this is a huge huge issue.
I typed out the entire section from the DSM-V on Gender Identity Comorbidities for my own reference. Here it is, I am sure there are typos:
Clinically referred children with gender dysphoria show elevated levels of emotional and behavioral problems—most commonly, anxiety, disruptive and impulse-control, and depressive disorders. In prepubertal children, increasing age is associated with having more behavioral or emotional problems; this is related to the increasing non-acceptance o gender-variant behavior by others. In older children, gender-variant behavior often leads to peer ostracism, which may lead to more behavioral problems The prevalence of mental health problems differs among cultures; these differences may also be related to differences in attitudes toward gender variance in children. However, also in some non-Western cultures, anxiety has been found to be relatively common in individuals with gender dysphoria, even in cultures with accepting attitudes toward gender-variant behavior. Autism spectrum disorder is more prevalent in clinically referred children with gender dysphoria than in the general populations. Clinically referred adolescents with gender dysphoria appear to have comorbid mental disorders, with anxiety and depressive disorders being the most common. As in children, autism spectrum disorder is more prevalent in clinically referred adolescents with gender dysphoria than in the general population. Clinically referred adults with gender dysphoria may have coexisting mental health problems, most commonly anxiety and depressive disorders.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 03:38:21 PM
Um, nothing I said there implied gatekeeping, so not sure why you are asking that. Unless you are afraid that is what you are doing.
John/Joan, as I said above scream some type of dissociative disorder, not gender dysphoria. I hesitate to say it's dissociative identity disorder, given how rare the condition truly is and the way you've describe it kinda leads away from that diagnosis.
However he is dissociating something fierce to the point of display a secondary persona that is far disconnected from his identity with complete wants and desires that run counter to his wants and desires. Everything in that screams dissociation, especially the fact that two sides being displayed are so at odds in desire that one would kill over it. Dissociative disorders are far far from gender dysphoria. They are their own category, and still very much categorized disorder for good reason.
Not giving the okay for hrt because a dissociative patient's alter (for lack of a more appropriate term) wants it while the core is devotely against is not gatekeeping. Because this patient is not gender dysphoric. He seemingly has a female alter that has decided she can do anything she wants to his body against his desires. Heal the dissociative issues that has created the break in him. Because as Joan stated willingly, transitioning won't do anything but make it worse.
Gatekeeping is withholding hrt and transitioning from a true gender dysphoric person because you disagree with the existence of GD or are too bigotted to help a trans person, but don't want to flat out refuse so they don't go elsewhere to get the okay. They will usually diagnose some other disorder citing only the dysphoria as a symptom to prove it.
The want to transition was not even a factor in me thinking John/Joan is dissociative and not dysphoric. Everything else is what screams dissociation, if you are worried that withholding hrt is gatekeeping here, don't be. And don't be scared to seek a second opinion on your diagnosis from a colleague if you have doubts.
Oh I have no doubts on her condition and she is under treatment by a psychiatrist, I purely act as a support therapist. My point was that we need to be careful on what individuals may say about their 'apparent' lack of professional support. Sometimes the individual may not report the full details.
I am very fortunate to know the OP (Suzi) and she, as I am, is a normal healthy well adjusted woman who requires no medical 'gatekeeping' but there are others who may report such opinion that may not be completely true when the full circumstances are known.
Medical intervention is needed for many of us who suffer GI, but as others have posted that intervention needs to be targeted to the conditions that require treatment and true professionals in the area know that and provide it with appropriate standards. Inadequately trained professionals give those who do care a bad name very quickly to the detriment of us all, both carers and clients.
Quote from: retransition on March 14, 2014, 05:52:56 PM
Thanks for that link. This is something that needs attention. I was just reading DSM-V in school library about comorbidity associated with gender identity issues and I find it kind of scary that various autism spectrum disorders are common comorbidities for many of the the children and adolescents being accepted for gender reassignment. I think this is a huge huge issue.
Speaking as one of these comorbid ASD & GD individuals, I respectfully disagree on it being a huge huge issue. ADD and dyslexia are often comorbid of each other and ASD. I have ADD and mild dyslexia. The fact they are comorbid is simply how it is, and not an issue. My ADD is no less real because it is comorbid with ASD, as opposed to being on its own. And my GD is no less real or serious because I happen to be autistic.
Comorbidity isn't an issue, it's an observation. That diagnosis A and B tend to show up together in patients at a high frequency. They aren't inaccurate diagnoses, one isn't a symptom of the other masking itself as a separate diagnosis. They are both 100% real true separate diagnoses often found together.
This merely suggests that the origin and cause behind them are extremely similar causing a high likelihood that both will develop under the shared conditions that create them. For example, brain scans of autistics have confirmed our brains are literally wired differently. We actually used different parts of the brain than neurotypical people to do the same tasks. Brain scans of trans people are starting to reveal differences in brain structure and wiring than that of cis people.
You have two diagnoses, both showing notable differences in wiring and structure as root factor of their existence. It makes a lot of sense if both are caused by a something wiring and developing the brain different than normal, than that same thing has a high likelihood of causing both to develop along side each other.
The comorbidity hints at shared origins, and shared affected regions and aspects of the brain, that is all. Their development are in someway similar and shared. They are not a case of mistaking one for two. And comorbidity is never an actual issue. It is nothing but observation. Both diagnoses stand as true and real as those diagnosed without having comorbid conditions.
Quote from: Cindy on March 14, 2014, 06:09:59 PM
Oh I have no doubts on her condition and she is under treatment by a psychiatrist, I purely act as a support therapist. My point was that we need to be careful on what individuals may say about their 'apparent' lack of professional support. Sometimes the individual may not report the full details.
I am very fortunate to know the OP (Suzi) and she, as I am, is a normal healthy well adjusted woman who requires no medical 'gatekeeping' but there are others who may report such opinion that may not be completely true when the full circumstances are known.
Medical intervention is needed for many of us who suffer GI, but as others have posted that intervention needs to be targeted to the conditions that require treatment and true professionals in the area know that and provide it with appropriate standards. Inadequately trained professionals give those who do care a bad name very quickly to the detriment of us all, both carers and clients.
Which is why I have and will always support psychiatric assessment for transitioning. It is necessary.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 06:38:30 PM
Speaking as one of these comorbid ASD & GD individuals, I respectfully disagree on it being a huge huge issue. ADD and dyslexia are often comorbid of each other and ASD. I have ADD and mild dyslexia. The fact they are comorbid is simply how it is, and not an issue. My ADD is no less real because it is comorbid with ASD, as opposed to being on its own. And my GD is no less real or serious because I happen to be autistic.
Comorbidity isn't an issue, it's an observation. That diagnosis A and B tend to show up together in patients at a high frequency. They aren't inaccurate diagnoses, one isn't a symptom of the other masking itself as a separate diagnosis. They are both 100% real true separate diagnoses often found together.
This merely suggests that the origin and cause behind them are extremely similar causing a high likelihood that both will develop under the shared conditions that create them. For example, brain scans of autistics have confirmed our brains are literally wired differently. We actually used different parts of the brain than neurotypical people to do the same tasks. Brain scans of trans people are starting to reveal differences in brain structure and wiring than that of cis people.
You have two diagnoses, both showing notable differences in wiring and structure as root factor of their existence. It makes a lot of sense if both are caused by a something wiring and developing the brain different than normal, than that same thing has a high likelihood of causing both to develop along side each other.
The comorbidity hints at shared origins, and shared affected regions and aspects of the brain, that is all. Their development are in someway similar and shared. They are not a case of mistaking one for two. And comorbidity is never an actual issue. It is nothing but observation. Both diagnoses stand as true and real as those diagnosed without having comorbid conditions.
I agree that it is a hint at a possible shared origin. I also know that just because someone is on the autism spectrum (or has any other psychological comorbidities) that does not make the gender dysphoria any less real. I have no issue with this because I have lived under these conditions for almost 50 years.
Your attitude about how these comorbidities define (or, more accurately, don't define) you as a person is appropriate and of course healthy. Obviously many people are finding relief for the suffering that GD usually brings by transitioning.
However, if we can get to a place to where people have more options on how to manage that GD - especially at an earlier age - that do not necessarily lead to the extreme surgical and hormonal nullifications of the body's natural ecosystem I would want that to be available to others. Even better yet, if we can figure out how to prevent GD in the first place by looking into this important area I think this is crucial too. The same goes for autism spectrum of course - yes if you are on the spectrum that is nothing to be ashamed of and arguments can be made that it is not a disability at all (and that this diversity is an essential ingredient to the human race) but if there is something going on that is not natural (i.e. toxins, artificial hormones or other as yet unknown agents) is causing kids to be this way I think it is really important for us to keep looking deeper for answers. Correlations give us clues of where to go with this and of course you are right they do not imply any particular causation.
I wouldn't wish GD on anyone. And in my case, just me personally, I now feel that the desire I once had to be female is much different than actually somehow "being female". I think for some people that distinction is important. I also think that it is important for non trans people to understand - that many people transition not because they are somehow wired to BE the opposite sex but that some people are wired to WANT TO BE the opposite sex. Does that distinction matter? I have my own thoughts on this, but more importantly it is a question that our society, that is just starting to address trans issues, hasn't even begun to talk about. Eventually we are going to have to get around to it.
Quote from: KelsieJ on March 13, 2014, 09:10:37 PM
Sorry, but I have to take issue here with what you just said, so I hope that you take it in the spirit in which it's meant and not as an attack for saying it.
There is a high incidence of depression among transgender people. Most of it is caused by the pressure to conform, needing and wanting to "pass", to "fit in", to be "accepted" and to be seen as "normal". There is also a large proportion who feel that surgery will correct all of that for them, when surgery is merely a part of the process for people who choose it. The HRT portion of transition is the most important part, but comes with a price tag - and that is that it can cause depression to worsen on occasion. It can also lift depression in some people. The key to transition is not to single out someone with a psychiatric condition in the trans* community, but to understand that a large portion of what you may be observing, is merely situational and due TO their transition and unrealistic expectations of what transition means. This is why I always recommend that anyone considering a transition works with a therapist, even if they do not appear to have any depression or other psychiatric condition.
Kelsie
Actually, that makes a lot of sense and I might have to think a little bit more about my viewpoint. What I was thinking of, in particular, is detransitioned FTMs. A very common thread I have noticed is that they either have eating disorders (and that was what caused their dysphoria - not the desire to be male, but the association of hips/boobs/femaleness with fat), or there's been a few I've seen who have borderline personality disorder (like one on a documentary).
But with what you said, about the transition sometimes worsening depression, and surgery being seen as a way to achieve normality makes sense to me too. I can speak from personal experience - I knew I wanted surgery, for me, when I thought HRT was going to be the primary part of my transition (at least socially). But now that I have gotten farther in, and a lot of dysphoria has been fixed, I have noticed some new issues that can be challenging. One of which is the "not feeling normal" - rather than feeling like I'm trapped in a female body, I feel like I am trapped in a inbetween body, kind of like a "deformed male" (no offense to anyone, that's only my own dysphoria). And it makes me wish I could have surgery even sooner. Fortunately I thought enough about surgery before so I know it's not a "cure all" for my lack of feeling "normal" or fitting in, and it's something I want solely for my own comfort, but I can see how someone might feel a lot more pressure to get it and then later not be happy about that choice.
Quote from: retransition on March 14, 2014, 07:12:21 PM
However, if we can get to a place to where people have more options on how to manage that GD - especially at an earlier age - that do not necessarily lead to the extreme surgical and hormonal nullifications of the body's natural ecosystem I would want that to be available to others. Even better yet, if we can figure out how to prevent GD in the first place by looking into this important area I think this is crucial too. The same goes for autism spectrum of course - yes if you are on the spectrum that is nothing to be ashamed of and arguments can be made that it is not a disability at all (and that this diversity is an essential ingredient to the human race) but if there is something going on that is not natural (i.e. toxins, artificial hormones or other as yet unknown agents) is causing kids to be this way I think it is really important for us to keep looking deeper for answers. Correlations give us clues of where to go with this and of course you are right they do not imply any particular causation.
First I agree wholeheartedly, but finding a wider range of offered treatments has little to do with the comorbidity of GD an ASD, and doesn't have anything to do with it being scary and a huge huge issue. Finding a wider range of better treatment options is something that is needed with or without ASD comorbidity.
I wouldn't wish GD on anyone either. I seriously wish I wasn't trans, but at the same time, there is no universe where that wish translates to identifying as male for me. I'm not a man, never have been, never will be, and would not sacrifice myself to be feel comfortable in my body, even if that meant being free of the dysphoria I wouldn't be me. Just like if you were to cure me of my autism I wouldn't be me. Why? You can't rewire and restructure a person's brain without completely destroying the person. Oh sure the newly minted consciousness will probably have a lot of similarities to who I was, and remember being me, but they won't be me. You will have killed me, and replaced me with a close approximation. (FYI this is why Autism Speaks "Cure" has nothing to do with actually curing or helping living autistics. They know it's not remotely possible right now to rewire a brain and if it were, would have too many hurdles to be a possible treatment. No, much more realistic to develop a pre-natal screen that will allow mothers to abort autistic fetuses, while using propaganda and scare tactics to make this the more favorable option)
Evidence of Autism and GD have been around for about as long as humanity has been. They were unknown during their time, and never mentioned directly, and are seen as "new" conditions. They aren't. The growing number of autism diagnoses creating the epidemic fear, is merely that we've come a long way from our understand of it in the 60s when it was considered to be "infantile schizophrenia". That's right, it was so poorly understood that it was considered schizophrenia at first. And infantile because the schizophrenics were stuck in an infantile state of mind. It was also the mother's fault. Not even hugs and holding them as babies. Then we discovered it wasn't schizophrenia but it's own condition. Debunked the mother not holding enough cause. Discovered that autism had nothing to do with low mental ability, that was simply the many cases that had mental retardation as a often seen comorbid condition. Start to better understand what Autism is and how it present. Allowing us to better evaluate, assess and give treatment to those, like me, who would have been too high functioning 20 years ago to be diagnosed as autistic. The numbers haven't changed, only our ability to understand and recognize those who are on the spectrum a lot better.
Also it's not a male oriented condition, this past year a lot of advancement has finally be done in studying and recognizing how autism and asperger's present in females which is similar but different than how it presents in males. This understanding has already shown a large number of autistic girls and women that had been misdiagnosed due to the poor understanding of the differences, and we'll most likely see in the years to come the stats of boys and girls on the autism spectrum balance out.
((As an interesting aside, I fit the female presentation of autism symptomology almost perfectly, and at least 5 times better than I fit the male presentation.))
Gender Identity and dysphoria is exactly like Autism. Very very very new interms of labeling, recognizing and studying. It popped up around the 50s and 60s just like autism did, and out knowledge of it has grown exponentially since then. In both cases the growing numbers coincide merely with our better understanding of them. Which is also allowing us to recognize historic cases of them.
As for the distinction of wired to be versus wired to want to be, if they are truly dysphoric, heavily heavily dysphoric and transitioning shows success in improving quality of life significantly in both cases, is there really a difference?
Should we let the one that is suspected to be wired to want to be the opposite sex suffer the unbearable dysphoria because "They aren't trans enough?"
I must have gotten really lucky with my shrink. The lack of courtesy to the OP is infuriating, both by the TS folk in facebook, and by the medical community. This is why I believe in using people I trust. It took a while for me to get my letter, but when I did it was eyes wide open, and I wanted that. And HRT has been a huge blessing for me. SRS in my case with my dysphoria is not needed....yet?...but if I had to see a psychiatrist for it they'd better be fluent in trans and dysphoria, and respectful. It takes courage to be trans.
Attitude. So important.
By the way HRT ended depression, anxiety, inability to concentrate.... drivenness....deception.... and the body looks like it feels to me. Huge. Hence, letter valid. No mistakes.
Quote: Should we let the one that is suspected to be wired to want to be the opposite sex suffer the unbearable dysphoria because "They aren't trans enough?"
Well I sure would have been screwed and in agony since I keep it hidden well socially wouldnt I.
Same, to the point my sister who had for years corrected all feminine behavior is very skeptical that I am, because beyond a few small behaviors, there apparently has not been anything to even hint at it according to her. She's never seen it were her words.
Amazing what relentless negative reactions to our female nature creates the hardened mask that becomes a survival mode and hard to let go of. They spent 55 years crushing the female part out of me, that shouldn't have happened.
Maybe thats why I totally refuse to cut my nails, socially male or not. Let them deal with it.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 07:56:25 PM
As for the distinction of wired to be versus wired to want to be, if they are truly dysphoric, heavily heavily dysphoric and transitioning shows success in improving quality of life significantly in both cases, is there really a difference?
Should we let the one that is suspected to be wired to want to be the opposite sex suffer the unbearable dysphoria because "They aren't trans enough?"
I appreciate your taking the time to reply and your thoughtful post. Everything you have said makes sense. Autism is something that I have not spent much time thinking about until very recently - I have just had the vaguest of understandings of its diagnostic criteria, the various hazy theories about causation and even a lot of the political/cultural issues within the ASD community that accompany the phenomenon. For a number of reasons, I have been trying to learn about this over the past few months. It is interesting to me how a lot of the identity politics that exist with thin the trans space also have their counterparts within the spectrum community. For example I can't help but note how similar some of the talk of, for example aspie (having aspergers) vs NT (neurotypical) mirrors talk I see here of trans vs. "cis".
I do suspect that there MAY be an underlying "something" behind both GD and ASD (in SOME cases) but I also know science if far from understanding what that is.
To answer your question about if there really is a difference between being wired to want to be the opposite gender vs being wired to actually BE the opposite gender - first of all I am not sure if ANYONE is wired to be the opposite gender - I believe that to varying to degrees it is a matter of a desire to be the opposite gender. Of course some people are naturally more comfortable and better suited to live their lives in a way that is opposite to societal expectations of their birth "gender". But I think that there it is fair to say that there is some identity difference in living in a gender because you want to vs that is that is just how you were born. Maybe it is a very slight difference. There is going to be a difference in identities between someone born into a certain religion vs someone who converts, someone who is born as a citizen of a country vs someone who has immigrated there. So at the very least this needs to be recognized, even if it is no big deal. But I also have to say that, as a born male, my mental construct of what it feels like to be a woman is just based on my own observations and speculation. If I chose to once again call myself a woman should I be offended if someone in a women's only space objected to my presence in some activities because of this fundamental reality? I think that if there is a boundary there it probably needs to be respected, at least at this time. Ideally one day gender wouldn't matter at all but for now it does and I think that assigned birth, while irrelevant 99.9% of the time in some instances still matters.
Quote from: retransition on March 14, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
....first of all I am not sure if ANYONE is wired to be the opposite gender - I believe that to varying to degrees it is a matter of a desire to be the opposite gender....
I vehemently disagree. I am the way I am, and that makes me not male, but female. It isn't some phase and it isn't just some sort of desire, it is the core of what I am.
Quote from: Hikari on March 14, 2014, 09:00:34 PM
I vehemently disagree. I am the way I am, and that makes me not male, but female. It isn't some phase and it isn't just some sort of desire, it is the core of what I am.
And you know what - I am not you and can never know what it feels like to be you so all I can do is respect your right of self-belief while I remain agnostic. I know you are sincere.
Quote from: retransition on March 14, 2014, 09:05:10 PM
And you know what - I am not you and can never know what it feels like to be you so all I can do is respect your right of self-belief while I remain agnostic. I know you are sincere.
Fair enough.
Quote from: retransition on March 14, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
I appreciate your taking the time to reply and your thoughtful post. Everything you have said makes sense. Autism is something that I have not spent much time thinking about until very recently - I have just had the vaguest of understandings of its diagnostic criteria, the various hazy theories about causation and even a lot of the political/cultural issues within the ASD community that accompany the phenomenon. For a number of reasons, I have been trying to learn about this over the past few months. It is interesting to me how a lot of the identity politics that exist with thin the trans space also have their counterparts within the spectrum community. For example I can't help but note how similar some of the talk of, for example aspie (having aspergers) vs NT (neurotypical) mirrors talk I see here of trans vs. "cis".
I do suspect that there MAY be an underlying "something" behind both GD and ASD (in SOME cases) but I also know science if far from understanding what that is.
To answer your question about if there really is a difference between being wired to want to be the opposite gender vs being wired to actually BE the opposite gender - first of all I am not sure if ANYONE is wired to be the opposite gender - I believe that to varying to degrees it is a matter of a desire to be the opposite gender. Of course some people are naturally more comfortable and better suited to live their lives in a way that is opposite to societal expectations of their birth "gender". But I think that there it is fair to say that there is some identity difference in living in a gender because you want to vs that is that is just how you were born. Maybe it is a very slight difference. There is going to be a difference in identities between someone born into a certain religion vs someone who converts, someone who is born as a citizen of a country vs someone who has immigrated there. So at the very least this needs to be recognized, even if it is no big deal. But I also have to say that, as a born male, my mental construct of what it feels like to be a woman is just based on my own observations and speculation. If I chose to once again call myself a woman should I be offended if someone in a women's only space objected to my presence in some activities because of this fundamental reality? I think that if there is a boundary there it probably needs to be respected, at least at this time. Ideally one day gender wouldn't matter at all but for now it does and I think that assigned birth, while irrelevant 99.9% of the time in some instances still matters.
Brain scans of various types of transsexuals such as Ftm, and homosexual (for their assigned gender) Mtf have shown brain size and structure more closely related to the gender they identify with. While brain scans and differences within are still being taken and studied we have a long way to go before getting definite results across the transsexual community, there are scans that are showing some classes of transsexuals to display a brain that is more in keeping both structurally and wired with the gender they claim to be. These results are still being confirmed and studied, but it does suggest that it is possible that we are wired according to the gender we identify as. In the classes that didn't holistically match the brains of the gender they claimed to be (such as heterosexual (for assigned gender) MtF) there were an abundance of structures within the brains that matched their claimed gender over their birth gender. Further research will eventually look into the importance of these structures on gender identity.
These studies are still very much in the peer review stages so no definitive result or claims are being made just yet, beyond sharing the findings of the initial experiment results.
I am going to have to agree with Hikari, but the nature of this discussion is getting more and more into the speculative, on topics that science is trying to answer currently, so while I will share my reasons for why I agree with Hikari, it is still more or less my opinion and educated guess.
Firstly, like Hikari, I am the way I am. I tried to power through life living as a male, keeping my desire to be female to myself and attempting to satiate it with fiction and fantasy. It nearly killed me twice. Desires are desires. They can be fixed, altered and changed. They can be corrected, outgrown or simply abandoned. In the 50+ years of trying to learn about and treat gender dysphoria, the early accepted belief was this. We're were considered perverts who simply desired to be the opposite gender and psychotherapy and treatment of the disordered desire (which was caused by some early influence in our life (as many desires and fears are) and not neurophysical or something we were born with). Psychotherapy has consistently shown success in treating and correcting harmful, or unwanted desires. And psychotherapy was the suggested treatment for trans* individuals.
The psychiatry community didn't abandon this treatment choice easily. They held on for far longer than evidence should have mandated. It is now established beyond a shadow of a doubt, due to this fact and the large quantity of evidence accumulated over the years, that psychotherapy is not effective and in majority of cases, far more harmful to the patient. It is established now that Gender dysphoria can not be treated and corrected with psychotherapy or in any way one would treat an unwanted or harmful desire, or even most disorders that were later tacked on to explain why treating it as a desire didn't work. Psychotherapy just doesn't work for GD. It is the primary reason that there is a search for physiological differences and it's change from GID to GD. Because psychiatry has pretty much ruled it out as a perverted desire or disorder and now consider it a true and factual difference that is present at birth. Meaning that psychiatry has determined that we are wired to believe, identify and feel like the gender we claim to be. Mentally, we are the gender we claim to be, and nothing short of lining our bodies up to align with our identities have proven to work. If this were just desire or disorder, psychotherapy should for all purposes work.
Moreso, as you've said, you wouldn't wish GD on anyone, and very few of us would. So many of us would jump at the chance to be free of the dysphoria and I suspect a lot of people aren't quite in keeping with my "In no wish does it translate to me being free of GD by identifying as my assigned gender". Many are still figuring it out and afraid to fully face the fact they aren't cis, many would jump at the chance to be free of GD anyway possible. These individuals don't want to be trans, and as such this overriding desire would eventually overthrow the desire to be the opposite gender and correct itself. This rarely happens, and in the cases that has, there are usually a number of signs to suggest something else was a play the whole time.
This is why I disagree that it is simply desire. We are born with only 2 fears, loud noises and falling. We are born only with the desire for companionship be it romantic, familial or friendship. All other desires and fears are taught and learned in our life, or present as a representation of a temporary need. As a child wanting your parent is a representation of the need for security and protection at the vulnerable age. As you grow up, you desire freedom and independence from the parent as you begin to enter the stage where we are driven to set out on our own and start our own family and life. There is no evidence of being wired to desire anything beyond basic needs.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 09:52:34 PMThere is no evidence of being wired to desire anything beyond basic needs.
You know what ... I was with you pretty with everything until this obviously untrue bit at the end, which leads me to think that maybe this just not stated as well as everything else you expressed so eloquently throughout the majority of your post (you made a lot of great points!) Of course we do things that are bad for us.
As you warned earlier not to jump to conclusions when encountering correlations. I think the brain scan information is really interesting but to me it is quite probable that transitioning might make some parts of a person's brain more aligned with the typical spectrum of the gender they are transitioning to (or even just identify with over time.) Everything we think and experience to some degree changes our brain physically so this makes sense.
And I do agree with you that I am skeptical of any form of conversion therapy and believe that any "successful" outcomes are probably either false positives or the "conversion" was likely the product of something else. The risks associated with this sort of therapy coupled with the serious emotional and psychological harm usually done to those who are subjected to contribute to my firm belief that these types of practices should be avoided.
But can therapy to help MANAGE GD get better? Yes! In the wake of the increased attention society is paying to this topic could listening to how people, trans and non-trans, are talking about what gender means to them right now help us understand how we as humans "do gender" and lead to some new therapeutic insights? Yes! Could a more honest discussion of the physiological side of managing GD help empower people to make better
informed decisions in terms of how they wish to manage their GD? Yes! And really - since all life is a little bit give and take - I don't think it is going to be helpful in the long term to discount people's views of gender (going by the assumption that it even exists) that are never going to align perfectly with ours. Someone who is non-trans may have just as strong (and to them equally valid) views of what defines a man versus a woman as their trans counterpart would. At this point it does get into the "speculative" as you say and to me actually becomes something that we must handle as best we can like we try to do in respecting people's right to their own religious views whilst not infringing on others basic human rights. It is never going to be entirely perfect - but there is alway room for improvement.
I was afraid I slipped out of eloquence in more than just that point.
You're fully correct on everything there. My attention was being pulled in several directions while trying to compose the post, and I actually had to use the back button to retrieve because I apparently didn't wait to see if it there were new posts before moving on to address something else. Thankfully Chrome saves the text in the text box when you hit the back button. Yes, it was poorly stated and a jumped to an unsupported conclusion.
I also am in full agreement, and was actually thinking I should have stated this in the post like 10 minutes after I posted it. Everything I stated in my post, was in part current psychiatry understanding of GD, and my own conclusions based on the evidence we have thus far. But we're on the cusp of really looking into and discovering a lot about gender, gender identity and gender dysphoria. What is concluded as of today will change and be redefined many times in the years to come as new knowledge and revelations are presenting.
This is why psychology gets a lot of flak for not being a "real" science. People think that because it is so fluid and shifts so much is evidence that it's just a bunch of academics making grand claims without really knowing what they are talking about. But it's still a fairly young field of study. The hard sciences often go back to ancient Greek times and already had their periods of rapid discoveries that were constantly redefining things. Even then, they still change relatively frequently, just the foundation for those things are pretty well established and set.
All of my views listed are just as I said, my opinions. I have my reasons, both observational and evidence based, and personal. But yeah, in the next few years all of that can be proven inaccurate, or heavily confirmed by findings. It is more, in my opinion, that the first 40 or 50 years were figuring out what questions we needed to ask, and now we have a pretty good understanding of a foundation from which we can now find the answers to those questions. And that's were the studies are now, finding the answers. It is very hard to speculate what will come from these studies because we're all waiting to see what answers are derived from them. It can go many different ways.
As far as treatment options, though, in all of this there we haven't addressed the future of the technology that exists now, and is already close to starting it's first field applications in the next 5 to 10 years. We have 3D medical printers that are printing out human organ and tissue. Including a full ear. Better understanding of using viruses and targeted and guide DNA delivery systems. Researchers have successfully found ways to use our own stem cells for gene therapy on a grander scale than before. Genetists are making leaps and bounds in their understanding of the human genome, as well as their ability to build genetic codes from scratch and insert into patients.
And the one that is most useful for the FtM crowd, a few years ago scientist had successfully found the switch in adult lab rats that prompted ovarian tissue to shift itself into testicular tissue, which down the line will do a lot of keeping ftm reproductive even after transition.
By the end of this century the methods we use today to transition physically, will look like the old practice of bloodletting to clear away diseases. And the end result may even been indistinguishable on every level from a member born to either gender. Transitioning methods that would also be much less severe than what we use today while achieving a much better result.
Honestly, the future options, both for mental treatment and physical treatment, will be so far better than anything we can hope for now.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 11:04:25 PM
I was afraid I slipped out of eloquence in more than just that point.
Nahh ...
But I totally agree with what you said about the first 40 - 50 years and still knowing so little. Yes, to ourselves we appear to have made great strides in understanding gender identity - but our knowledge about this is really in its infancy. And that is why I get frustrated quickly with people who sort of say that the conversation is already over and we know everything we need to know.
More and more we are now starting to legislate gender based on our current understandings of it. I am not against this, and laws that keep people safe and protect their human rights will always have my support. But as we continue to tease out what exactly gender (if anything) means we have to be willing also to continually look at how we want to manage it within our society. At this stage there still have to be some norms in place to go by. That sort of goes back to what this thread is all about. For a lot of people, having to go see a therapist or doctor as part of the SOC may seem like a burden. Because of the sad fact that a lot of mental health practitioners are barely competent, people are right to complain about being forced to see them. But it comes down to the Society thing again (I have used that word a lot tonight) and how we all have to agree on some basic rules (even if imperfect) if we are going to be able to all function together. In the USA we have laws that prevent men from going into female bathrooms because there is a safety risk to females should certain men go in there. (Of course the laws go the other way too but that is an entirely different dynamic.) Those laws make sense to us. Now, if someone who is born male but identifies as female wishes to use a female bathroom I believe that there needs to be that person has at least some societal obligations to fulfill in the interests of increasing the likelihood of more safety. (I am not even going to discuss the matters of passing.) I believe that that person needs to be evaluated in some manner (figuring out what that should look like is the tricky part) and they must also be willing to put at least some effort into demonstrating to society that they are doing this in a socially responsible way, especially if they are going to expect legal protections for their right to be there.
I honestly feel I don't need to go to take driving test or visit the DMV to be able to drive a car down the freeway. But I still don't really complain TOO much about the fact I have to do this because, obviously I don't want to get pulled over without a license, but also because I feel better knowing that the majority (though not all) of the drivers in the cars that are surrounding me on that freeway have also gone through this process and that makes driving a bit safer.
We are still figuring out the "bathroom thing". There will probably be a variety of differing laws about this depending on what country, state or city you live in. In my opinion, insisting that a person be allowed to use the restroom of whatever gender they declare themselves to be without having at least some level of societally approved verification that they have no ulterior or nefarious motives for wanting to be in there will probably make it even hard to work out how we deal with this.
I sort of went off on a tangent that I didn't necessarily mean to. But I guess my point is that I do think we all have some responsibility to continue digging deeper into the psychology and neurology behind being transgender, not only so that we can improve care for those who are impacted with GD (as I was talking about in my earlier thread) but also to help society navigate how to deal with some of the more murky issues that emerge as we start to cross lines of demarcation that have never been crossed before.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 14, 2014, 12:10:46 AM
I am emphatically NOT saying that being trans* makes people mentally ill
Perhaps you refer to *treated* trans people ? :-\ Suicide/psychotic/GD-impairment is evidence that it makes them mentally ill. ???
Quote from: retransition on March 14, 2014, 10:28:28 PM
But can therapy to help MANAGE GD get better? Yes! In the wake of the increased attention society is paying to this topic could listening to how people, trans and non-trans, are talking about what gender means to them right now help us understand how we as humans "do gender" and lead to some new therapeutic insights? Yes! Could a more honest discussion of the physiological side of managing GD help empower people to make better informed decisions in terms of how they wish to manage their GD? Yes!
That is has been my rallying cry. >:-) The DSM does not properly identify trans people.
If they were honest, and stated that some trans people actually need at least some HRT, then they would be admitting that trans is an intersex condition, and that would not jive with the "trans is a lifestyle choice" crowd.
So, perhaps there is intentional dishonesty. >:( This dishonesty could potentially cause harm.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 14, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
Gender Identity and dysphoria is exactly like Autism. Very very very new interms of labeling, recognizing and studying. It popped up around the 50s and 60s just like autism did, and out knowledge of it has grown exponentially since then. In both cases the growing numbers coincide merely with our better understanding of them. Which is also allowing us to recognize historic cases of them.
They are the same superficially, however, I would think ASD and GD are discernible.
Autistics tend to be good at detail at the sacrifice of the bigger picture. This is called, "local processing over global processing". The opposite is true of non-ASD people. This is why people call younger ASD people names like "dense" or "lack common sense", and why they have to be told every detail explicitly. This trait is mitigated as the ASD person memorizes enough of the world to appear as normal. Dr. Grandin a famous ASD person said it was not until age forty that she was able to be fully functional, because she had to fill her mind with forty years of memorized information.
Further, the long term memory is better in ASD people at the sacrifice of the short term memory. This is why some ASD people get identified as "absent minded". The opposite is true of non-ASD people. This is how an ASD person makes it in the world by memorizing everything, and having an expectancy that the world will function subsequently as memorized.
I would not expect GD to impart the above traits ???
Retransition- fully agree with everything there. Like with the example Cindy gave of her patient that screamed dissociation not GD. In reality, there are a number of conditions that can present as GD but aren't and assessment by a professional is necessary. Does it sometimes allow for bad professionals to barr transitioning. Yes. Sadly. But it is still vital.
Genderhell- you completely took one tiny line of my post out of context and argued against it. Line: ASD and GD are the same. Context missed: In regards to the fact there is historical evidence they have always existed but awareness, identifying them and starting to understand them in very new, both only being established and recognized in the 50s and 60s. This causes many to view them as new conditions that never existed before and look for environment causes to the growing epidemic when in actuality, the increasing numbers are a matter of a better understanding of what both conditions are, not some chemical we are "poisoning generations with"
ASD =/= GD. Never said it was. What I did say is in the above context the are the same. I.E. in the above context you can swap the diagnosis of ASD for GD and barely have to alter a line of it.
If you read my other points in my posts on this thread you will see I fully consider them to be separate and very different conditions.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 15, 2014, 11:48:58 AM
Genderhell- you completely took one tiny line of my post out of context and argued against it. Line: ASD and GD are the same. Context missed: In regards to the fact there is historical evidence they have always existed but awareness, identifying them and starting to understand them in very new, both only being established and recognized in the 50s and 60s. This causes many to view them as new conditions that never existed before and look for environment causes to the growing epidemic when in actuality, the increasing numbers are a matter of a better understanding of what both conditions are, not some chemical we are "poisoning generations with"
ASD =/= GD. Never said it was. What I did say is in the above context the are the same. I.E. in the above context you can swap the diagnosis of ASD for GD and barely have to alter a line of it.
If you read my other points in my posts on this thread you will see I fully consider them to be separate and very different conditions.
Apologies. ^-^
I misinterpreted your before mentioned statements as "GD causes ASD-symptoms, so both conditions exist in that regard".
Quote from: birkin on March 14, 2014, 07:29:45 PM
One of which is the "not feeling normal" - rather than feeling like I'm trapped in a female body, I feel like I am trapped in a inbetween body, kind of like a "deformed male" (no offense to anyone, that's only my own dysphoria). And it makes me wish I could have surgery even sooner. Fortunately I thought enough about surgery before so I know it's not a "cure all" for my lack of feeling "normal" or fitting in, and it's something I want solely for my own comfort, but I can see how someone might feel a lot more pressure to get it and then later not be happy about that choice.
I'm interested in how others get around that feeling of "deformed male". Like you, I mean no offense in stating it that way. Personally my biggest dysphoria, all my life, has been that I can't have the functioning lower unit that "normal" MAAB's have. And my personal viewpoint is that surgery would never give me that either. Taking into consideration the "everyone is different" thing, I'm sure there's a variety of ways people cope with the options not being quite the same as if you were born that way. I'm actually glad the opportunity was not presented to me earlier in life because I most likely would have taken it and then not been happy with the result. To me, that doesn't mean I'm any less male because I didn't take the option. For me, it was my "Matrix option" ... I chose to live in the reality as is rather than try to make the fantasy reality the place where I resided. There's definitely been some bumps along the road but here I am.
Going back to the original topic, "Why all the anger at me for knowing what I need?" it's my personal belief that knowing what one needs at any given moment in time is subject to not just change but on external elements. I'll use an example of someone who is so distraught with the female version of puberty that they go to the web and start discovering that they might be FTM. They hate their body, the see males not having to go through any of that, maybe they have even felt sexism already in their lives, maybe they were always a tom boy or didn't like girl's things, and all those variables add up to the decision that they are trans. According to research on the web the treatment for being trans is to change your body to that of the opposite gender. When you're in the middle of experiences that are causing you to be depressed, emotional, distraught, a way out of it almost always seems like the best course of action. Since gender is still such a huge thing in society (up to and including being outside of the male or female box being almost taboo to some people), one can not simply declare themselves the opposite of their assigned-at-birth gender and get on with their lives. Even though I am one of those people who's brain doesn't match up with the body they got, I'm the first to admit that this would be problematic. I also am not a fan of psychologists in general and I've personally been effected by horrible therapists who should not have been therapists at all. But there has to be some general accepted practice and steps to go through if one is to change their gender both physically and socially.
On the topic of mental issues, that's a whole can of worms in my opinion because even now as new studies come out and correlate one thing with another, it can either give someone hope and clarity or shatter their world. When I was a teenager and a therapist told me I had GID I can still remember my very first thought –
I should have never said anything because now they think I'm crazy ... that I have a disorder. It got even worse when that one and another therapist basically told me that if I wasn't willing to do any "treatment options" then I need to accept that I'm female and that nonsense of being male is just ... nonsense. Therapy has the power to help, or utterly damage someone. For me, those "diagnosis" kicked off a good 5 year block of alcoholism, depression, and anxiety. All I was trying to do was escape reality but it gave me more problems to deal with on top of my gender stuff so it took me awhile to get my head screwed back on properly again and start fresh. I say all of that because I truly do get where people are coming from when they are opposed to having to deal with a therapist and the damage that can be done if you get a bad one. And plenty of people DO have other issues they're dealing with on top of gender, from depression, anxiety, bi-polar, autism, ADHD, or even worse. Therapy is meant to get to the root of issues and sort through things. But, if you've made the choice that transition is or might be for you, it's the hoops you have to jump through. If you run into one of those bad ones, you have to find a different one.
There's also the "safety" factor as retransition brings up. Laws and rules are made in society that have to do with gender simple to keep a bulk of society feeling comfortable and safe. If you choose to step outside the binary boxes, then you do so at your own discretion. If you want to transition to the opposite gender, you have to go through the current system in order to do that.
Quote from: genderhell on March 15, 2014, 02:39:21 PM
Apologies. ^-^
I misinterpreted your before mentioned statements as "GD causes ASD-symptoms, so both conditions exist in that regard".
No no no no nooo. That would be the exact opposite of what I think and was saying.
ASD and GD have similarities on the superficial level and possibly share an origin. This would possibly account for the high rate of comorbidity. But they are very different beasts and very different and separate diagnoses.
Let's say Element A causes the prenatal brain to develop differently than the norm, in terms of wiring and structure. One instances pushes the brain to develop into Pattern A. Baby is born with ASD. Another instances pushes the brain to develop into Pattern B. Baby is born with GD. Both instances together pushes the brain to develop both Pattern A and B. Baby is born with the comorbid ASD and GD.
Or the alterations from the norm caused by Element A (the cause of ASD) leaves the door wide open for Element B (the cause of GD) to effect the development later on. Where Element B might require a strong shove to alter the brain development to cause GD in a non-ASD brain, it may only require a small nudge in the ASD brain to cause GD, due to the already different wiring and structure that has been developed.
This is being all speculation to illustrate what I mean by the two possibly sharing a cause and origin. But it is what comorbidity hints at. That the conditions that cause one to develop can also be what causes another or makes it easier for others to develop.