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Kia Ora,

PLEASE RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S BELIEFS WHEN COMMENTING THANK YOU !

Some people swear by it, others think it's a waste of time...some believe it has nothing to do with any supernatural intervention but just coincidence/mere chance...

Or could it be that an auto-suggestive process takes place ?

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/6317/power-auto-suggestion.html

So what's your take on it ...Does prayer really work ?  Has it worked for you ?

Metta Anatta :)

It's pretty much always worked for me. And I'm not joking about that. Every time I've been led to pray for something, genuinely seeking help and an answer, I've gotten it in some form. And this has been a completely consistent thing, starting before I even became Christian, while I was a Christian, and now even long after I stopped officially considering myself affiliated with the Christian church.

It's always just about taking that time, stopping everything, turning off the noise of the world, and talking about my problems with God. (Or whoever it is that I talk to in that place of deep concentration. I've always called Him "God," and felt like He was the same God of the Bible, so I still assume that, even though I've gotten more into a kind of multi-religious mindset recently where I don't really believe in the exclusionary doctrines anymore.)

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 25, 2014, 12:21:19 AM
Every time I've been led to pray for something, genuinely seeking help and an answer, I've gotten it in some form.

"It"--getting help and answers when I need them--happens to me all the time, and I never pray.

Prayer has helped me greatly through out my life. And I can honestly say I wouldn't be where I'm at today without prayer. And I am the woman I am today because God answered my prayers I made so long ago when I was a kid. :)

I choose the middle option.

What definition of "prayer" are we working by here? Asking an immortal being for help, comfort, and advice, or spending time in self-reflection?

Also, what goals are we discussing? Having our wishes granted, meditation, offering praise, etc.?

Prayer can take many forms and have different goals.

I go by individual prayer as more meditation/self-reflection. God doesn't intervene but thinking about things with some sort of spiritual direction can lead you to the best answer.

There's also ritualized prayers (Nitnem, Ardas, etc.) which is more about rememberance.

From the perspective of an atheist - that would require the existence of something listening, caring, prioritising prayers and manipulating reality to cause beneficial events to occur at the request of a single person/group of people.  As there is no reliable evidence supporting this scenario I would have to go with no.

Though the mind is really good at cherry picking information from day to day life and interpreting it in ways that may cause it to believe that a prayer has been answered

However if a study is released with results that can be reproduced by 3rd party peers proves that they do I would readily re-examine my stance on the subject...

How about an option of just, Yes.

As a Christian, I pray to the Lord my God and God answers as He deems best for me.

I think the power of belief works. Whether that's belief in a prayer being answered, or a belief in oneself having the capacity to achieve one's goals. And part of that may well be a sort of auto suggestion. A signal to the subconscious that we want something, and to do something about it.

Whether prayer actually works as intended... I don't think I'll personally ever know.

Well, I picked the third option. Why would the Creator of the universe be so interested? If so, He/She would probably be so insane from all of our craziness. ;) Although I do believe we have that same spark inside ourselves that other's would call God, after all we were created in the very same image and that gives us the tools to handle our own needs and what is best for us. Does prayer work, yes I think so because the whole idea with prayer is pretty much consciously wanting or needing something and the answer on how to acheive it is within our own psyche. Not taking away from God but rather acknowledging a great gift much like Freewill.

I don't personally believe in any gods, but I do pray each night. It has never worked, but I keep trying on the off chance that it will someday. I never pray about anything that would benefit me, just that the health of my friends be restored and things like that. Sometimes I offer god my health in exchange, but still, nothing ever happens. :(

For all the people who do think prayer works, who are reading this thread, please pray for my friends?

Years ago when my sister-in-law's rare bone cancer spread to her lungs, I prayed that she'd survive and that donor lungs could be found for her. She was 32 when she died, and her son was 5. It could be argued the answer to my prayer was, "No."

This is just one example, but I won't say that prayer doesn't work or hasn't worked for me. My attitude toward prayer has changed over the years. Instead of praying as a meas to an end, I pray with gratitude. I'm grateful to awake alive in the mornings. I'm grateful for the job I dislike as it allows me to survive and gives me the means to pursue my intention of seminary.

Grateful praying does indeed seem to have a genuine positive effect on me. If it's no more than a placebo effect or a self-fulfilling thing, then so be it. If that's the way it works, then that's the way it works.

Quote from: Kaylee on March 25, 2014, 11:00:32 AM
However if a study is released with results that can be reproduced by 3rd party peers proves that they do I would readily re-examine my stance on the subject...

I've read about the opposite. Studies have been conducted in which one group of people prayed for sick folks. The control group of sick people was not prayed for. I remember reading the results of one such study; there was no difference in the outcomes for the two groups of sick people.

To eliminate the placebo effect, the researchers did not tell the sick people that someone was or was not praying for them.

Prayer appears to be like acupuncture. If you believe in it, it has a decent chance of working--at least, the people who avail themselves of it report that it works. If you don't believe in it, it's essentially useless. Therefore, I put it down to placebo.

I believe prayer can work.  I pray, but I don't always get the desires of my prayers, but I do believe prayer can work.

Kia Ora,

Taking Sarah's advice I've added extra straight forward answer options of "Yes" & "No"...Some people may not have had any personal experience with prayers/praying but still 'believe' that they work ...

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on March 25, 2014, 10:29:33 AM

Also, what goals are we discussing? Having our wishes granted, meditation, offering praise, etc.?

Prayer can take many forms and have different goals.

I go by individual prayer as more meditation/self-reflection. God doesn't intervene but thinking about things with some sort of spiritual direction can lead you to the best answer.

There's also ritualized prayers (Nitnem, Ardas, etc.) which is more about rememberance.

Kia Ora Nimrata,

It's interesting you should mention meditation..It's true some people view meditation (especially mantras) as a form of praying, and in Hinduism they do tend to focus on getting in touch what they believe to be the "higher self"...

Meditation for me personally has nothing to do with praying to any supernatural deity to ask for help, guidance, etc, it's purely exploration, exploring the five aggregates of form, consciousness, sensation, perception, habitual tendencies, as they rise and fall, observing the constant state of flux, the 'empty' nature of all phenomena ...

I say a simple dedication/wish before and after meditation, which could be my wish for all sentient beings to be happy. peaceful and liberated eg "May all beings be happy! May all beings be peaceful! May all beings be liberated!" Also prior to entering my place of meditation I chant a mantra "Om Mani Padma Hung" (What I seek I am!)... The mantra and the dedication helps to keep the mind focused on the purpose of my being....I guess one could say the practice of saying a mantra and dedication is somewhat 'auto-suggestive' in nature=programming the mind so to speak...It works for me so I can't complain  ;D

Metta Anatta :)

   

Yes it does work, My prayers have been answered at times, What it all cones down to is that you have to have faith and truly believe or else it won't work and you have to be in the position for your prayers to be answered, God will grant you the desires of your heart, He said ask and you shall recieve knock and the door shall be opened. I had lazey eye when I was an infant, They told my mom that I needed lazer eye surgery, But she didn't wanna do that so instead she prayed and it went away on its own and you if you look at me today you can't tell and it was bad. I also prayed my dad would quit drinking and its working, A lady from my church was diagnosed with aids she was prayed over and was old to go back to the doctor and get checked and it wasn't there true stories. So its all in a matter of do you really believe that God will do what he said or even promised.

I always remember God doesn't answer on our time table and may instead wait for the perfect opportunity.  :)

Exactly he never works on our time.

Actually praying has kinda helped me , not because I say god do this and he does but because im able to get some things of my chest...

when I pray (usually when im sad) I reffer to a higher existence asking her to change things if possible,,,,and other rants :P

:/ k that was awkward *flies away*

Funny story, I couldn't get my phone charger to work a few minutes ago so I prayed to God to get it to work and after a few more minutes, it started to work.  :)  Prayer definately can work!  I don't know how long my charger will last but I'm glad that it is working now at least.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 25, 2014, 11:19:15 PM
I always remember God doesn't answer on our time table and may instead wait for the perfect opportunity.  :)

And many times the answer will only come when God is the only hope of the answer. Sarah didn't have Issac TILL ALL HOPE WAS GONE. The man born blind was not healed for years. The woman with the issue dealt with it for 12 years. Hannah did not have Samuel for YEARS.
I have seen many,many answers to SPECIFIC prayers that could ONLY come from Him. His answer is not always yes,it can be no but it can also be NOT YET.

Quote from: SarahM777 on March 31, 2014, 07:59:28 PM
His answer is not always yes,it can be no but it can also be NOT YET.

This is something that bears repeating.

You may call it what you will, but positive wishing/thinking/faith has value.

It failed me completely. When I was little I always prayed to wake up as a girl but it never happened. It was one of the reasons why I became an atheist years ago, it felt like I was talking to myself. After awhile I honestly, and still think, that prayer is worthless. I always felt that action is the best way to relieve human suffering as we can make differences to ourselves and others.

Quote from: Malachite on March 26, 2014, 12:57:03 AM
Funny story, I couldn't get my phone charger to work a few minutes ago so I prayed to God to get it to work and after a few more minutes, it started to work.  :)  Prayer definately can work!  I don't know how long my charger will last but I'm glad that it is working now at least.

i'm sorry but i'm i can't take that seriously, if you want to prove prayer works, pray for something that wouldn't happen if you hadn't prayed, like tons of food just appearing out of thin air in Africa to feed people, not something that could happen anyway (like a faulty cable or bad connections inside your phone charger, which can work after you try messing up with the phone charger), also, being more specific with the prayer should be better to know if the prayer worked or if it was something that was likely to happen, and leave no room for subjectiveness

i don't believe prayer works, but that isn't a surprise coming from an atheist, my mother keeps trying to show prayer works through these simple situations like when she prays for her car keys and she finds it (after continuing to search for them, instead of not searching and seeing if the prayer works without her searching, which would be the point, because she would find her keys anyway without praying), but a lot of her simple prayers like these go unanswered, and she just ignores the results that didn't work and focus on the ones that "worked", this is called confirmation bias

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 14, 2014, 07:06:23 PM
i'm sorry but i'm i can't take that seriously, if you want to prove prayer works, pray for something that wouldn't happen if you hadn't prayed, like tons of food just appearing out of thin air in Africa to feed people, not something that could happen anyway (like a faulty cable or bad connections inside your phone charger, which can work after you try messing up with the phone charger), also, being more specific with the prayer should be better to know if the prayer worked or if it was something that was likely to happen, and leave no room for subjectiveness

i don't believe prayer works, but that isn't a surprise coming from an atheist, my mother keeps trying to show prayer works through these simple situations like when she prays for her car keys and she finds it (after continuing to search for them, instead of not searching and seeing if the prayer works without her searching, which would be the point, because she would find her keys anyway without praying), but a lot of her simple prayers like these go unanswered, and she just ignores the results that didn't work and focus on the ones that "worked", this is called confirmation bias

Well sometimes God lets things happen for a reason like the starving in African and what not and I respect your beliefs but you can nessicarily use that as an excuse for why you don't trust God or believe in him he never works on our time and you have to be in the position to recieve him, I've seen people who had aids or cancer get prayed over with blessed oil and when they went back to the doc they couldn't find it. Like I said in a earlier post I had a lazey for the longest time when I was younger and it was horrible and they wanted to do lazer eye surgery but I was to young and my mom didn't want it so my family prayed over me and for my eyes to heal on its own and know if you look at me you would not be able to tell that I ever had a lazey eye unless I told you.

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 14, 2014, 07:06:23 PM
i'm sorry but i'm i can't take that seriously, if you want to prove prayer works, pray for something that wouldn't happen if you hadn't prayed, like tons of food just appearing out of thin air in Africa to feed people, not something that could happen anyway (like a faulty cable or bad connections inside your phone charger, which can work after you try messing up with the phone charger), also, being more specific with the prayer should be better to know if the prayer worked or if it was something that was likely to happen, and leave no room for subjectiveness

i don't believe prayer works, but that isn't a surprise coming from an atheist, my mother keeps trying to show prayer works through these simple situations like when she prays for her car keys and she finds it (after continuing to search for them, instead of not searching and seeing if the prayer works without her searching, which would be the point, because she would find her keys anyway without praying), but a lot of her simple prayers like these go unanswered, and she just ignores the results that didn't work and focus on the ones that "worked", this is called confirmation bias

I don't want to prove that prayer works and I have no interest in proving that it works.  The Bible tells me that prayer can work, so therefore I believe it as a Christian.  I don't knock anyone for not believing that prayer works though.  To each their own.

Quote from: Malachite on April 14, 2014, 07:47:08 PM
I don't want to prove that prayer works and I have no interest in proving that it works.  The Bible tells me that prayer can work, so therefore I believe it as a Christian.  I don't knock anyone for not believing that prayer works though.  To each their own.

i'm sorry then, when you said this:

Quote from: Malachite on March 26, 2014, 12:57:03 AM
Funny story, I couldn't get my phone charger to work a few minutes ago so I prayed to God to get it to work and after a few more minutes, it started to work.  :)  Prayer definately can work!  I don't know how long my charger will last but I'm glad that it is working now at least.

to me it looked like you were trying to, you even gave an example, i apologize though if i got it wrong

Quote from: Brandon on April 14, 2014, 07:27:48 PM
Well sometimes God lets things happen for a reason like the starving in African and what not and I respect your beliefs but you can nessicarily use that as an excuse for why you don't trust God or believe in him he never works on our time and you have to be in the position to recieve him, I've seen people who had aids or cancer get prayed over with blessed oil and when they went back to the doc they couldn't find it. Like I said in a earlier post I had a lazey for the longest time when I was younger and it was horrible and they wanted to do lazer eye surgery but I was to young and my mom didn't want it so my family prayed over me and for my eyes to heal on its own and know if you look at me you would not be able to tell that I ever had a lazey eye unless I told you.

i do not see any reason not to help people starving if he has the power to help, this is not why i don't believe in god though

i do not understand what you mean by the position to receive him, can you please clarify?

as for your other examples, the body can cure diseases with it's own immune system, if prayer works as good as you say, should be easy to demonstrate with very clear and numerous examples, right?

It's proof to me that prayer works because of my experience, but I'm not out trying to convince those who believe otherwise. It would be foolish to think that a person who has it in their heart that prayer doesn't work would change their mind because of a cell phone charger.

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 14, 2014, 10:12:41 PM
i'm sorry then, when you said this:

to me it looked like you were trying to, you even gave an example, i apologize though if i got it wrong

i do not see any reason not to help people starving if he has the power to help, this is not why i don't believe in god though

i do not understand what you mean by the position to receive him, can you please clarify?

as for your other examples, the body can cure diseases with it's own immune system, if prayer works as good as you say, should be easy to demonstrate with very clear and numerous examples, right?

Again God lets things happen for reason, What I mean b position is you have to want God to move for you and your prayers have to be powerful and you have to believe it because if you don't how you expect him to move, And come on know Aids and Cancer that was only a healing from God I also like th ecuses made for that, Just like my lazey eye, Like I say I respect your beliefs but what I funny is everytime I mention my lazey eye you by pass it and can't say anything to it I noticed you mentiined everything but that :-\  I find that funny but I understand why you wouldn't believe that but as I stated of course he's not gonna move if you didn't believe in him from the start I would do the same thing if I was him why Imma move for you when you don't even have faith in me.

Quote from: Brandon on April 14, 2014, 11:33:43 PM
Again God lets things happen for reason, What I mean b position is you have to want God to move for you and your prayers have to be powerful and you have to believe it because if you don't how you expect him to move, And come on know Aids and Cancer that was only a healing from God I also like th ecuses made for that, Just like my lazey eye, Like I say I respect your beliefs but what I funny is everytime I mention my lazey eye you by pass it and can't say anything to it I noticed you mentiined everything but that :-\  I find that funny but I understand why you wouldn't believe that but as I stated of course he's not gonna move if you didn't believe in him from the start I would do the same thing if I was him why Imma move for you when you don't even have faith in me.

actually, when you said lazy eye, you wrote lazer eye, and i didn't understand what you were talking about, anyway, when people start going to the church instead of going to a hospital and do controlled tests to see if prayer makes a difference or not in healing, i'll be more interested in faith or prayer healing claims

so the position you mean is accept that the prayers work before testing if they work? i'm sorry but things don't work that way

what excuses? the burden of proof is on you to prove that aids and cancer where cured because of prayer to a specific god, not me disproving your claim, scientists and doctors would also be very interested in that, all you done is say some people were healed, who? where? when? do you have their medical exams before and after the cure so we could take a look? did you record the prayers? how do you know it was the god that cured of their illness and not something else that happened? feel free to provide these for your eye healing as well

as for god letting things happen with a reason, there is no reason not to save someone if you have infinite power and can do so with no effort, for example, if i let someone rape and kill a child when i have the power to stop him and instead of stopping him say: "you can do what you want now, but when you are done, i'm gonna punish you", people will consider me an evil monster, i would stop the perpetrator and save the child, but apparently god doesn't, and he isn't considered evil either, which puzzles me, but this is another matter, let's not derail the thread from prayer

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 15, 2014, 12:55:25 AM
as for god letting things happen with a reason, there is no reason not to save someone if you have infinite power and can do so with no effort,

Not a reason you can see. I am not G-D and only G-D has a right to whatever with us, the creation of. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 15, 2014, 12:58:44 AM
Not a reason you can see.

perharps :), but that is enough for me to consider him evil

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 15, 2014, 12:58:44 AM
I am not G-D and only G-D has a right to whatever with us, the creation of. :)

i'm sorry but i'm not sure what you meant, english is not my main language so i really don't understand what you meant :D, i do not want to put words into your mouth, but is this what you meant? that's what i got from what you wrote

"I am not G-D and only G-D has a right to do whatever he wants with us, he is our creator. :)"

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 14, 2014, 07:06:23 PM
i'm sorry but i'm i can't take that seriously, if you want to prove prayer works, pray for something that wouldn't happen if you hadn't prayed, like tons of food just appearing out of thin air in Africa to feed people, not something that could happen anyway (like a faulty cable or bad connections inside your phone charger, which can work after you try messing up with the phone charger), also, being more specific with the prayer should be better to know if the prayer worked or if it was something that was likely to happen, and leave no room for subjectiveness

i don't believe prayer works, but that isn't a surprise coming from an atheist, my mother keeps trying to show prayer works through these simple situations like when she prays for her car keys and she finds it (after continuing to search for them, instead of not searching and seeing if the prayer works without her searching, which would be the point, because she would find her keys anyway without praying), but a lot of her simple prayers like these go unanswered, and she just ignores the results that didn't work and focus on the ones that "worked", this is called confirmation bias

Interesting question but have you thought about this? Is it not possible that God has provided many with so much more then what is really needed so that those who are greatly blessed may provide for those who do not have out of love and compassion for those who do not have those things? Do we really need as many shoes as have? Do we really need to have HBO,STARZ and Cinemax all at the same time? Do we really need that brand new $50,000 sport car? Do we really need to see a new movie every week? Etc,etc,etc Or can we live quite well without some of it?

Quote from: SarahM777 on April 15, 2014, 07:12:36 AM
Do we really need as many shoes as have? Do we really need to have HBO,STARZ and Cinemax all at the same time? Do we really need that brand new $50,000 sport car? Do we really need to see a new movie every week? Etc,etc,etc Or can we live quite well without some of it?

ahh! i finally got back to the laptop and can answer you, i'm sorry for taking so long to answer you :laugh:

there is probably no need to have the objects you described, but everyone has the right to do whatever they want with their hard earned money, even burning it if they so desire, they have no obligation to do charity with it, and no obligation to spend money only on things that are necessary

god however, being onmipotent, could easily provide anything the person needs, as he has infinite resources, and not giving critical things such as food or curing diseases that would save someone's life, means he allows suffering even though he can prevent it with no negative consequences for him, like the example i said before, saving the child from being raped and murder is doable, but he does not and supposedly just punishes the person that did it after, if it was any person doing that, it would be called an evil person, and considered an accomplice in the crime

Quote from: SarahM777 on April 15, 2014, 07:12:36 AM
Interesting question but have you thought about this? Is it not possible that God has provided many with so much more then what is really needed so that those who are greatly blessed may provide for those who do not have out of love and compassion for those who do not have those things?

as for you saying that god has given a lot to some so that they could do charity to others that need it (instead of the simpler explanation, which requires no god to it, that richer people are just more talented in acquiring those resources with hard work and effort, and may or not do charity but have no obligation to do so), he, being omniscient, already knows if these people will do charity or not, so a much easier and faster solution would be just to give directly to those that need it, since it's obvious not everyone does charity, i think the simpler explanation i provided seems more reasonable to me

Sunday night I had a nightmare in which I was stabbed by a cis woman. That nightmare left me shaken and agitated. I posted about this on Facebook and my daughter shared a link to a ritual for cleansing and empowerment (http://rabidruminations.tumblr.com/post/82407255663/ritual-for-cleansing-and-empowerment). It's a ritual that she wrote and uses after nightmares.

Monday night I worked this ritual before I went to bed, modifying to suit my needs and praying to my various deities (I'm a Christo-Pagan and am polytheist) to aid me in removing this negativity and turning it into spiritual fertility. I slept soundly that night.

Is this demonstrative of anything? Perhaps, and perhaps it's just demonstrative of a coincidence. Yes, I have an odd relationship to prayer for someone who's been accepted to seminary.

I can't deny that this might have been ritual nothing more than positive reinforcement and the results of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But even if so, who cares? To quote a friend and mentor, "Proof is irrelevant nor required (http://doubleinvert.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/sharing-proof-is-irrelevant-nor-required/)."

For me, proof negates faith whereas doubt actually makes my faith stronger.

Prayer absolutely can work, which is why enlightened leaders such as the current Dalai Lama discourage conversion. For millions or billions of people, the precise things they believe matter less in reality than that they believe, and have learned through prayer, meditation, or whatever form of focused, accepting intention they have learned to utilize, to affect the subtle aspects of themselves and through that their world.

I would not have survived my early years without faith (lowercase) and many miracles occurred through prayerful focused intention.
I am a rare one who needed to change belief systems completely, but I follow the same star.
Remembering what it felt like within me when I was a frightened pre-teen left alone with a feverish and miserably sick little sister and how afraid a and full of hurt for her, I knelt and prayed and felt a wash of love and comfort, and felt the sickness dissipate and be replaced with healthy sleep, years later I can feel the same accepting love and hold the same intention and heal others with the same calm assurance I had at twelve. All faiths, including non-faith, that are effective, draw on the same truths and same power for good, call Him, Her, They, it, or us what you may.

Quote from: MadelineB on April 15, 2014, 11:20:48 PM
Prayer absolutely can work, which is why enlightened leaders such as the current Dalai Lama discourage conversion. For millions or billions of people, the precise things they believe matter less in reality than that they believe, and have learned through prayer, meditation, or whatever form of focused, accepting intention they have learned to utilize, to affect the subtle aspects of themselves and through that their world.

I would not have survived my early years without faith (lowercase) and many miracles occurred through prayerful focused intention.
I am a rare one who needed to change belief systems completely, but I follow the same star.
Remembering what it felt like within me when I was a frightened pre-teen left alone with a feverish and miserably sick little sister and how afraid a and full of hurt for her, I knelt and prayed and felt a wash of love and comfort, and felt the sickness dissipate and be replaced with healthy sleep, years later I can feel the same accepting love and hold the same intention and heal others with the same calm assurance I had at twelve. All faiths, including non-faith, that are effective, draw on the same truths and same power for good, call Him, Her, They, it, or us what you may.

Kia Ora M,

It's interesting you should mention this...The Dalai Lama quite often when giving a talk to Westerners will say "stay with the belief system you were born into" that is 'if it an't broke don't fix it'...But part of his push to stop conversion is  due the Christian missionaries trying to convert poor Buddhists, especially in Mongolia...

The mind (in the right hands) is such a powerful tool and judging by past posts by you (on other threads) it would seem you are well on the way to mastering it....

BTW It's good that prayer worked out for you...But do you really think help came from beyond ie, a god of some sort ? Or could it be, you just changed the way you looked at things and the things you looked at changed ?

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 15, 2014, 12:55:25 AM
actually, when you said lazy eye, you wrote lazer eye, and i didn't understand what you were talking about, anyway, when people start going to the church instead of going to a hospital and do controlled tests to see if prayer makes a difference or not in healing, i'll be more interested in faith or prayer healing claims

so the position you mean is accept that the prayers work before testing if they work? i'm sorry but things don't work that way

what excuses? the burden of proof is on you to prove that aids and cancer where cured because of prayer to a specific god, not me disproving your claim, scientists and doctors would also be very interested in that, all you done is say some people were healed, who? where? when? do you have their medical exams before and after the cure so we could take a look? did you record the prayers? how do you know it was the god that cured of their illness and not something else that happened? feel free to provide these for your eye healing as well

as for god letting things happen with a reason, there is no reason not to save someone if you have infinite power and can do so with no effort, for example, if i let someone rape and kill a child when i have the power to stop him and instead of stopping him say: "you can do what you want now, but when you are done, i'm gonna punish you", people will consider me an evil monster, i would stop the perpetrator and save the child, but apparently god doesn't, and he isn't considered evil either, which puzzles me, but this is another matter, let's not derail the thread from prayer

I said lazey eye but the doctor wanted to do lazer eye surgery but my mo chose prayer and yet and still you are bypassing it its proof look at my eyes in the pic my eyes look normal.

Quote from: Brandon on April 16, 2014, 05:53:22 PM

I said lazey eye but the doctor wanted to do lazer eye surgery but my mo chose prayer and yet and still you are bypassing it its proof look at my eyes in the pic my eyes look normal.

i became a microbiologist after studying for 10 minutes yesterday, just talk to the peanut jelly alien that lives in saturn, he can confirm my story

do you believe me? if not, why?

see how i can just assert anything i want? that doesn't make it true

like i said before, feel free to provide your medical tests, preferably examined and commented by doctors, records of the prayers and proof showing the link that the specific prayer caused the healing, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 16, 2014, 08:23:08 PM
i became a microbiologist after studying for 10 minutes yesterday

Finally! Some one who can explain cellular mitosis to me! ;D

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 08:25:07 PM
Finally! Some one who can explain cellular mitosis to me! ;D

of course jessica! you've come to the right person :), cellular mitosis is:

Я думаю, вы собираетесь попробовать перевести это, кто знает? я даже не знаю, если это переводчик штуковина является достаточно точным, чтобы никакого смысла об этом после копирования паста это в гугле, так что давайте петь что-то поднять настроение не так ли?

я ехал мой автомобиль, я нуждался в бензин, положить пироги в баре я полон адреналина угу угу, да, да ...

хорошо все, что, я не могу петь в России :3

I was going to give a smarty answer and say its ALL Greek to me, but I do recognize Russian script after looking at it for a minute!!  TSK, Tsk!

Yeah the translator here does work.     LOL

Quote from: Vicky on April 17, 2014, 12:57:33 AM
I was going to give a smarty answer and say its ALL Greek to me, but I do recognize Russian script after looking at it for a minute!!  TSK, Tsk!

Yeah the translator here does work.     LOL

lol! when i translate back what i wrote, i ended up with "petrol" instead of "gasoline" which was what i wrote before so it rhymed :laugh:

Uh look at my signature I do know Russian dear. You said you became a microbiologist and I believed you. So, why cant you believe G-D can answer prayer?

Quote from: Anatta on April 16, 2014, 12:52:47 AM
Kia Ora M,

It's interesting you should mention this...The Dalai Lama quite often when giving a talk to Westerners will say "stay with the belief system you were born into" that is 'if it an't broke don't fix it'...But part of his push to stop conversion is  due the Christian missionaries trying to convert poor Buddhists, especially in Mongolia...

The mind (in the right hands) is such a powerful tool and judging by past posts by you (on other threads) it would seem you are well on the way to mastering it....

BTW It's good that prayer worked out for you...But do you really think help came from beyond ie, a god of some sort ? Or could it be, you just changed the way you looked at things and the things you looked at changed ?

Metta Anatta :)

Hi A,
I would say that at the time that I was surviving, my belief in a merciful supreme divine being, when I was in no way prepared to believe in myself, enabled me to do things for myself and others that I otherwise was too broken to attempt. Was it actually God performing the miracles? Well, I don't want to knock anyone's faith or symbols. I just know that I am now involved in the same or greater miracles without calling on a god to do them. At the same time I acknowledge that it was a very painful journey for me to go from believing completely to where I am today, so I wouldn't recommend it to others unless their heart of hearts leads them to it. For me, it felt like growing up, but for many people, it would feel like a form of dying.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 01:48:00 AM
Uh look at my signature I do know Russian dear.

oops! i failed hard lol  :(, i hadn't seen your sig, so i just thought of a language i have no idea how to read, like russian, and used it :x  :laugh:

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 01:48:00 AM
You said you became a microbiologist and I believed you. So, why cant you believe G-D can answer prayer?

you shouldn't have believed what i said, because i provided no evidence, for trivial claims such as i went to a restaurant yesterday, it's more understandable to trust the claimer and accept this claim on the fact that it's likely and trivial

but now if i said something very extraordinary like the example i gave and the alien in saturn or that i saw a ghost in my bathroom yesterday, that is something extraordinary which is not very likely to happen according to what we know of reality, therefore for such a extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on the claimer to provide some evidence that it really happened, and i didn't

when someone makes a claim to you, would you not believe until it is proven or would you believe until it's disproven?

it's the same thing as prayer, that is something very extraordinary which would require a lot of evidence, i won't take things on trust or word on this matter, extraordinary evidence is required

for healing claims such as those made by Brandon, sometimes the body can heal injuries and diseases, he says that the prayer caused the healing, but provides no proof of this link or record of the prayers, so that is hard for me to accept it, maybe if there was a healing that the body can't provide, like an amputee, that would be a great start, but i have never seen praying heal amputees

also the confirmation bias is a problem, a lot of prayers that are not answered are ignored, and those that are supposedly answered are the ones that the prayer has memory of, and a lot of these prayers are trivial things that could happen anyway, especially since the prayer is also working to achieve the same goal as those requested in his prayer

Sat nam SilverGirl:

Your arguments kind of remind me of arguments people give claiming trans people are just confused. Much of the "proof" people give of "being born in the wrong body" cannot be medically or scientifically proven in their case.

For some people, there's things you just feel , believe, know.

If you're living your own life, not forcing your views on others, and feel good, I see no harm in living on a gut feeling that cannot be scientifically proven.

~H

Quote from: MadelineB on April 17, 2014, 03:31:36 AM
Hi A,
I would say that at the time that I was surviving, my belief in a merciful supreme divine being, when I was in no way prepared to believe in myself, enabled me to do things for myself and others that I otherwise was too broken to attempt. Was it actually God performing the miracles? Well, I don't want to knock anyone's faith or symbols. I just know that I am now involved in the same or greater miracles without calling on a god to do them. At the same time I acknowledge that it was a very painful journey for me to go from believing completely to where I am today, so I wouldn't recommend it to others unless their heart of hearts leads them to it. For me, it felt like growing up, but for many people, it would feel like a form of dying.

Kia Ora M,

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 07:48:50 PM
Sat nam SilverGirl:

Your arguments kind of remind me of arguments people give claiming trans people are just confused. Much of the "proof" people give of "being born in the wrong body" cannot be medically or scientifically proven in their case.

For some people, there's things you just feel , believe, know.

well, the thing is that i view being trans differently, not that its a disorder, dysphoria or whatever, but it's what the person prefers so there shouldn't be anything to prove and we should be able to just choose what we prefer, the problem really is that people think that when someone is born they need to follow the gender and gender roles that society designates for those being born with a penis or vagina, and anyone who deviates from that norm and prefers the gender role that doesn't match the genital, they are classified as having a disorder or whatever it's called, which makes no sense because the only "disorder", is being different, this is one of the reasons i'm totally against transsexuality or non-binary people being pathologized and of required therapy before we do what we want with our bodies, but this is another subject and i don't want to deviate from the thread subject

i understand what you mean though, but i disagree, we have insane asylums for people that "feel, believe, know." that they are napoleon or have been abducted by aliens, etc, believing in something, no matter how strongly, does not make it real

another problem is that according to what you said, it creates a problem that everyone that "feels, believes, knows." prays to different gods, then it would mean that there were different gods to answer these prayers, and as far as i know most of these beliefs are monotheistic and mutually exclusive

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 07:48:50 PM
If you're living your own life, not forcing your views on others, and feel good, I see no harm in living on a gut feeling that cannot be scientifically proven.

~H

i agree completely, though there is nothing wrong with talking about it, after all this thread is a question of whether or not prayer works, so i view it as a discussion for those that think that it does and those that think that it doesn't

Sat nam Silvergirl:

Yes I do agree that just feeling, believing, and knowing doesn't always equate truth, but not having scientific proof doesn't always mean that it isn't true.

Quoteanother problem is that according to what you said, it creates a problem that everyone that "feels, believes, knows." prays to different gods, then it would mean that there were different gods to answer these prayers, and as far as i know most of these beliefs are monotheistic and mutually exclusive.

I find that it's a common misconception among western Atheists (and even some religious/spiritual folks) that many religions view themselves as mutually exclusive. While it is true that there are some that see themselves as the only way and everyone else is going to hell, I find more and more religious scholars are more open, view differences of religion as being God's way of revealing Zirself to different peoples and cultures. I'll just use Sikhi as an example (because that's what I try my best to follow): we believe in one genderless God, but that all peoples and religions are equal. A LaVeyan Satanist, a Jew, Atheist, or polytheistic faith follower can achieve union with God just as much as a Sikh could.

Another thing that can make these discussions hard is that even though most religious/spiritual folks recite over and over again that they lack scientific proof, hence why it's called "faith" and not "fact", that any sort of "proof" they have is only proof to them or a few others who choose to believe them, we're still constantly hammered to almost magically come up with some sort of scientific data. I think it's a difference of mind-set sometimes. I am fine not having scientific proof, because I know that the mysteries of God/Universe are more complex than my limited human mind can comprehend, so if I cannot comprehend it, I am unlikely to be able to find a way to quantify and measure it. I don't think the human brain is quite capable of being able to understand the universe enough to scientifically find proof for everything.

Back to another part of the thread:

I was thinking, that if I do pray it's kind of different requests than is stereotypically portrayed as being prayed for. I don't ask for things like "please help me get X," or "heal this person" or "let me travel safely". I tend to more say something like "help me discover what direction is right for me" or "help me learn to be less judgmental and be more accepting of others".

The things I tend to pray for would likely be completely impossible to prove.

Jap prem,
H

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
Sat nam Silvergirl:

Yes I do agree that just feeling, believing, and knowing doesn't always equate truth, but not having scientific proof doesn't always mean that it isn't true.

yes, but the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not on others to prove it's not true, otherwise i could say that there is a magical pink six headed dragon with a scorpion tail that likes purple M&Ms called Didi that created all the universe, following the same line you said, i could say that even though i don't have scientific proof, doesn't mean that Didi doesn't exist, but why should i say such a thing? like i said before, should i not believe in something until it's proven or should i believe in something until it's disproven? should you not believe in Didi until i prove her exists? or should you believe until someone proves Didi doesn't exist?

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
I find that it's a common misconception among western Atheists (and even some religious/spiritual folks) that many religions view themselves as mutually exclusive. While it is true that there are some that see themselves as the only way and everyone else is going to hell, I find more and more religious scholars are more open, view differences of religion as being God's way of revealing Zirself to different peoples and cultures. I'll just use Sikhi as an example (because that's what I try my best to follow): we believe in one genderless God, but that all peoples and religions are equal. A LaVeyan Satanist, a Jew, Atheist, or polytheistic faith follower can achieve union with God just as much as a Sikh could.

what i meant in the previous post is that anyone could have a different view, and some would have beliefs that their god is the only one, and that with by you saying that they feel it's true that their prayers get answered, thus confirming the god they believe did it, it would confirm that they exclusive (according to their beliefs) god is real, creating a small problem, i didn't mean to argue that all are like these, it was just something that came into my mind though i think i should have thought more before saying it

anyway, let me try to respond regardless, i do not know much about religions in general, not even christianity or the bible much, since i don't think it's necessary to be an atheist, though as far as i know other gods don't show up in other religions holy books, that's what i mean about it being mutually exclusive, that according to the holy book, other religions or gods weren't present in their respective creationisms and therefore they don't exist according to that holy book

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
Another thing that can make these discussions hard is that even though most religious/spiritual folks recite over and over again that they lack scientific proof, hence why it's called "faith" and not "fact", that any sort of "proof" they have is only proof to them or a few others who choose to believe them, we're still constantly hammered to almost magically come up with some sort of scientific data. I think it's a difference of mind-set sometimes.

well, these kinds of discussions, like this thread is, is to prove and convince others about something, in this case that prayer works, if such thing did, it must be possible to prove that it did because whatever answered the prayer would have left clues that it acted upon it

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
I am fine not having scientific proof, because I know that the mysteries of God/Universe are more complex than my limited human mind can comprehend, so if I cannot comprehend it, I am unlikely to be able to find a way to quantify and measure it. I don't think the human brain is quite capable of being able to understand the universe enough to scientifically find proof for everything.

well, if i do not know, i'll just say i do not know, i won't jump to a conclusion that does not seem likely since there isn't proof of it, just because we don't know, doesn't mean that other explanations that invoke god are more plausible

you say that you are not capable of quantifying and measuring the mysteries of God/Universe, but by saying that you make an assertion that a god is real and that it is mysterious, which would probably require some knowledge and comprehension to do so i assume

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
Back to another part of the thread:

I was thinking, that if I do pray it's kind of different requests than is stereotypically portrayed as being prayed for. I don't ask for things like "please help me get X," or "heal this person" or "let me travel safely". I tend to more say something like "help me discover what direction is right for me" or "help me learn to be less judgmental and be more accepting of others".

The things I tend to pray for would likely be completely impossible to prove.

Jap prem,
H

well, you may not pray for those things, but some do, so those objections i raised earlier could still apply to them

your prayers however, are quite vague, and the problem is that you are also working towards them yourself, so when it is fulfilled, how do you know whether it was just by your will to change or that god answered the prayer?

Sat nam SilverGirl:

The thing with me though is that I always have claimed that "I don't know". I even had a joke "religion" with some of my friends, we are proud "IDontKnowist". :)

Quotethough as far as i know other gods don't show up in other religions holy books, that's what i mean about it being mutually exclusive, that according to the holy book, other religions or gods weren't present in their respective creationisms and therefore they don't exist according to that holy book

I am not trying to prove anything here, but you might find it interesting that in the Sikh holy book (Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) there are writings from Muslims, Hindus, and some other religions. The Sikh word for God is "Waheguru" but you'll often see the Islamic word "Allah" and other titles from other religions like "Krishna" in  SGGS because the truth in those other religions were seen and incorporated into the text. There's no creationist story in Sikhi, because we quite know that we can't prove any creationism story. Sat Nam means "(God's) Name is Truth", so many Sikhs follow the "creationism" theories brought about by scientists, like the Big Bang theory, and evolution, etc. because we follow truth. So far, nothing has proved there's not a Great Spirit, and I don't think there's really any way to prove it. Great Spirit isn't a big white guy with a beard sitting in some clouds, it's the energy, matter, atoms, negative space, etc. that's in everyone, everything, and everywhere <-- in my view anyways. We're "all from the same pond scum". :)


But, like I said before, I do think it's just a difference of mind-set and how different people look at and evaluate the world. I know you'll likely never understand my position. I didn't think the point of Anatta starting this thread was to get believers to "prove and convince others", I think she was just looking to see what people thought. I know I'll never be able to prove there's a Great Spirit, but believing in something works for me. If needing 100% scientific factual basis for everything works for you, go for it. Since I am happy in my little world here, not hurting others nor myself, I'll go on believing what I will.

Sleep well and enjoy the morning.

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on April 17, 2014, 11:07:28 PM
Sat nam SilverGirl:

The thing with me though is that I always have claimed that "I don't know". I even had a joke "religion" with some of my friends, we are proud "IDontKnowist". :)


I am not trying to prove anything here, but you might find it interesting that in the Sikh holy book (Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) there are writings from Muslims, Hindus, and some other religions. The Sikh word for God is "Waheguru" but you'll often see the Islamic word "Allah" and other titles from other religions like "Krishna" in  SGGS because the truth in those other religions were seen and incorporated into the text. There's no creationist story in Sikhi, because we quite know that we can't prove any creationism story. Sat Nam means "(God's) Name is Truth", so many Sikhs follow the "creationism" theories brought about by scientists, like the Big Bang theory, and evolution, etc. because we follow truth. So far, nothing has proved there's not a Great Spirit, and I don't think there's really any way to prove it. Great Spirit isn't a big white guy with a beard sitting in some clouds, it's the energy, matter, atoms, negative space, etc. that's in everyone, everything, and everywhere <-- in my view anyways. We're "all from the same pond scum". :)


But, like I said before, I do think it's just a difference of mind-set and how different people look at and evaluate the world. I know you'll likely never understand my position. I didn't think the point of Anatta starting this thread was to get believers to "prove and convince others", I think she was just looking to see what people thought. I know I'll never be able to prove there's a Great Spirit, but believing in something works for me. If needing 100% scientific factual basis for everything works for you, go for it. Since I am happy in my little world here, not hurting others nor myself, I'll go on believing what I will.

Sleep well and enjoy the morning.

see? i don't know much about the religions themselves, i was wrong about mutually exclusion and i ended up just generalizing everything, thanks for the interesting information

well it may not have been to "prove and convince others", but there's nothing wrong about discussing it, and like i said before, anyone is allowed to believe whatever they desire

good night and good next day to you  ;D

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 16, 2014, 08:23:08 PM
i became a microbiologist after studying for 10 minutes yesterday, just talk to the peanut jelly alien that lives in saturn, he can confirm my story

do you believe me? if not, why?

see how i can just assert anything i want? that doesn't make it true

like i said before, feel free to provide your medical tests, preferably examined and commented by doctors, records of the prayers and proof showing the link that the specific prayer caused the healing, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Look at eyes thats enough proof all they did was pray I don't have to lie or show you my medical history I know what I'm talking about you don't all clearly, Only thing you can do is say show me proof when its right there in front of your face, I don't need to show you a papper all I need is God he did it hem doctors didn't do anything, I don't even really go to doctors anymore.

I feel like praying does and does not work depending on ones personal perspective.  I believe strongly in the concept of one creating ones own reality and the power of manifestation.  If you believe praying makes a difference then it will in your own life; However if someone feels differently then perhaps praying may be a waste of their time