Hey, I'm 3 months on mtf hrt and my face is what I have the most dysphoria about. I feel there have been absolutely no changes there unfortunately though I have been getting some breast growth... but as I said the face is most important to me and breast growth feels worthless to me if my face doesn't change.
I'm a non op transgender doing hormones and laser and I want to avoid other operations if possible. Me not wanting to do bottom surgery means in my country I am denied any financial help with other surgeries because I "am not a full woman" according to the sex change commitee here in Israel :/
So basically 3 questions... and I know YMMV which is why I hope to get lots of answers to see the general range of possabilities.
First: poll! Did HRT do enough to your face to allow you to pass without facial surgery and if so how long did it take or when did you start seeing changes?
Second: How long should I wait to see what HRT and laser hair removal do before it's likely this is as good as it gets and I need to consider surgery if it's not enough?
Third: I always was skinny even now after hormones I have to "work hard" to get fat and it always goes first to the tummy before it spreads elsewhere, and I lose it elsewhere before I lose it in my tummy... and I want to pass but I also want to stay skinny. Could that be stifling my transition or probably it's just going to take time either way?
Thanks in advance to anyone who answers! And my apologies if this has been asked a lot...
This is a video I shot 4 days ago so you can see how I look now. People still refer to me as male all the time and I want to work in acting and no one hires me because I don't look female enough for them and I don't want to work as a man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LxV_D5EOkE
Hmm.. There's a couple of things I'll say in respose to this..
I'm not sure that my looks were the most important thing when it came to passing.. Confidence and attitude carried me a long way to start with - and still does.
It took about 12 - 18 months for me to see any real changes in my face - and even then they were fairly subtle.
Do I pass? It seems so.. Either that or I'm yet to come across someone rude enough to say something..
I was on E for about six months and Spiro for about 3 when my face started 100% passing.
However even before that, I got really good results just by wearing bangs and glasses that covered up my eyebrow area. That obscured my eyebrow ridge and forehead area, which are my biggest problems. Given your picture, I would say that they're your biggest issue as well. Cover them and your passability will go way up.
First off, I see a woman in your video. :) So it may be partly that you're too hard on yourself; I also thought I saw zero changes even when strangers were gendering me female already.
Secondly, HRT had made *some* facial changes by about 3 months, and after 6 months I was never misgendered again, even in boy clothes with a male ID. Which I think answers the question about whether I needed surgery, too; I have had no problems with being gendered correctly and while I wish I could fix some things about my face, they're all the usual complaints that cis women have too. I would give yourself at least a year, but realistically, wait as long as you think you can stand - and pay attention to how other people, esp. ones with no preconceptions, approach you.
Lastly, sorry, no idea about being skinny... I was chubby when I started HRT and have gained weight since.
Maybe it will sound a little bit discouraging, but I am more than 13 months on HRT and I don't think I pass... Still a lot of people call me "sir"... I am not even thinking about fulltime at this stage :(
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PM
Hey, I'm 3 months on mtf hrt and my face is what I have the most dysphoria about. I feel there have been absolutely no changes there unfortunately though I have been getting some breast growth... but as I said the face is most important to me and breast growth feels worthless to me if my face doesn't change.
Shalom aleichem. I feel your impatience, but three months really is too short a time to cause any major visible changes in fat distribution within your face and body. It can take up to a couple of years or more if you're a slow developer. Even after that, you may find that you still require some sort of facial feminisation surgery.
Starting in my early 20s, I passed without facial surgery, but had some anyway because I wanted the testosterone induced 'rough edges' smoothed out, and I needed the confidence boost. You know what? It's only after 20 years of being on HRT that I'm really feeling pleased about my body. Surprises keep on happening.
In the meantime, whilst HRT changes are in progress, you should work on other things, if you are not already doing these things. Things like your voice, make-up, dress sense and mannerisms. I can't help you with these things. But I know that others here can.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PMDid HRT do enough to your face to allow you to pass without facial surgery and if so how long did it take or when did you start seeing changes?
Yes. Within a few months (3-4) of starting HRT. But, I was also doing laser. The significant reduction in facial hair combined with HRT helped me pass quite quickly. I already had an androgynous face to start with and quite long hair, so that helped as well. :) I also gained much weight (30 lbs) during those months, in part due to HRT (especially Androcur-cyproterone acetate) and because I stopped smoking. I was too thin anyways so it was good. :)
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PMHow long should I wait to see what HRT and laser hair removal do before it's likely this is as good as it gets and I need to consider surgery if it's not enough?
At least 1 year on a sufficient dose of hormones for you prescribed by your doctor. Eventually, you might want to switch to electrolysis to be sure hairs are removed permanently and don't EVER come back. Hairs coming back as you live fulltime as a woman would be problematic. :(
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PMCould that be stifling my transition or probably it's just going to take time either way?
I think a minimum amount of fat is necessary to grow breasts, have a fuller, rounder face, hide overall masculine features and make you look more feminine. Recently, increasing my estrogen helped me gain weight and give me a curvier, more feminine appearance with better breast growth. Eating carbs, although not healthy if eaten in excess, will also help to add fat. Bioidentical Progesterone helps with this, in some.
Good luck!
Thank you to everyone who replied!
It's great see the variety of experiences here being shared. It helps me feel more comfortable knowing that in comparison I'm just starting and there is still time for the hormones to do something. It's just I saw lots of videos of trans women who saw changes very quickly and it's nice to know that just because it didn't happen so quickly to me it won't happen later.
QuoteFirst off, I see a woman in your video. :) So it may be partly that you're too hard on yourself; I also thought I saw zero changes even when strangers were gendering me female already.
Thanks for the vote of confidence :) My girlfriend seems to see a woman too and I guess she better as a lesbian :P But I was at a wedding yesterday and telling people my name is Ruth didn't stop them all from addressing me as male, even when I told them to please address me as female... They just couldn't do it and kept on slipping.
So I'm definitely not passing yet. Yesterday was rough on me and I did the horrible mistake of binging on wedding food, in addition to some further binging I did the day before...
The thing is that while I always had a thin body overall even when eating a lot, my tummy can and does fill up and bloat up very quickly and it is very apparant in comparison to my otherwise thin body. It seems my body resists putting fat anywhere but my tummy and waist.
I've been doing feminization exercises in a video I found here and they really helped slim my waist significantly as well as shape my tummy in two weeks. But all that was lost in two days of binge eating and I'm back to where I started two weeks ago. My chest size below the bust is 80cm and my waist started at 80cm, my tummy was at 90cm from two weeks of eating lots of fried food. I got my waist down to 76cm and my tummy down to 84cm and had a nice little curve there! Those two days though got my tummy back up to 88cm and my waist back to 80cm and so the waist curve was totally lost. My butt grew a bit by one cm, but it was insignificant to how giant my tummy looked compared to the rest of my body and how it overshadowed my small breasts and how my waist curve was totally gone.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's this video that I used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8udQ-h4Y4BY
And I plan to run as well
http://running.about.com/od/trainingschedules/a/3weeksto30minuterunninghabit.htm
So that dilemma is solved, it seems that eating sensibly and exercising to get my tummy as thin as the rest of my body and making my waist thinner helps a lot more for me to get closer to an hourglass figure than trying to fill up which seems to go 90 percent to the tummy before it goes anywhere else.
So on the skinny vs feminine front I think I have nothing to worry about anymore, I just need to keep up eating healthy and exercising and avoid binge eating like I did.
QuoteHowever even before that, I got really good results just by wearing bangs and glasses that covered up my eyebrow area. That obscured my eyebrow ridge and forehead area, which are my biggest problems. Given your picture, I would say that they're your biggest issue as well. Cover them and your passability will go way up.
Thanks for the suggestion! My wigs before this one had bangs and it didn't seem to help me pass. On the contrary, I think it made the wigs stand out more that they were wigs because it looked like I was hiding something. As for glasses, I've tried various glasses and I haven't found something that helps me pass. Glasses also hide the eyes and the eyes can help pass so it seems to be I gain something and I lose something when wearing glasses.
QuoteIn the meantime, whilst HRT changes are in progress, you should work on other things, if you are not already doing these things. Things like your voice, make-up, dress sense and mannerisms. I can't help you with these things. But I know that others here can.
As I wrote above, I am exercising and that is helping a lot but I need to be careful not to ruin it with binge eating.
Voice - I got "find your female voice" from YouTube but I need the discipline to work on it. A bit hard to be motivated when I feel I don't pass anyway because of my face. I also have a bit less motivation since my girlfriend likes my deep voice as it is and hated it when I tried to speak in a female voice but on the other hand I have more motivation since I advertised myself as a transgender actress and got offered to possibly join an acting agency so I am guessing I need to have access to a female voice if I want to play female roles.
So yeah, I should work on that.
Makeup - I've been checking out YouTube a lot about that, especially about how to handle hooded eyes but I kind of hate how my face looks with makeup and how my face feels with makeup. It kind of feels like lying about my body. Which is the same reason why I now keep my pushup bra in the closet because now that I have boobs, however small - I'd rather people get to know me with my actual breast size. So it is with makeup that it hides my natural complexion which in my opinion makes me look a bit more naturally feminine than makeup face if it weren't for the horrible stubble I still have.
So basically, because of that and because my girlfriend prefers how I look without makeup, I'm wearing makeup only for acting work where I know they won't be flexible about how I look.
This is my attempt at doing makeup.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fruthruthless.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgallery%2Fyear-2014%2F20140225_013425-ColorsAdjusted.jpg&hash=f1e05e189d07d9f53cbdb3fe622a9a48b4ac7418)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fruthruthless.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgallery%2Fyear-2014%2F_cache%2F20140225_013113-e1393287140372.jpg&hash=eb6fd74aac311212459e31e8d746c04a3497ef06)
Basically just foundation to cover stubble and then the rest of the face because then the contrast looks weird, some blush beneath the cheek bones, mascara and my lips tend to dry up so I put on an anti lip drying lipstick which I still put on when my lips are dry regardless of general makeup.
So this is my "work" look but for the rest of the time, even in my blog videos I prefer to not use makeup. I don't think makeup really helps me pass. Especially all sorts of heavier options people suggested I try. At best it makes me look like a charicature of a woman. I haven't seen any noticeable improvement in how people gender me when I'm wearing makeup.
I do wear a wig though since I can't grow hair, so despite what I wrote I'm not really completely "honest" about what my body looks like but that's as far as I feel comfortable going. Again, mostly because I don't think makeup really works for me. It doesn't make me look like the kind of woman I'd like to look.
--
As for dress sense, I can't seem to find a good balance here. Either the clothes I wear seem too feminine and people say I look too much like I'm wearing a costume. Again, the charicature of a woman problem. And then I try to wear tight casual female clothes and some people say that it doesn't look like I'm wearing feminine clothes at all...
Basically I don't want to look like an imitation of a woman. I don't want to look like a barbie doll. I just want to look real and I don't want to set unrealistic expectations about my body like I have wonderful C cup breasts like my pushup gives me but then people tell me that I'm "not doing enough to be a woman" and then if I do everything I can then they say I look like I'm wearing a costume.
QuoteYes. Within a few months (3-4) of starting HRT. But, I was also doing laser. The significant reduction in facial hair combined with HRT helped me pass quite quickly. I already had an androgynous face to start with and quite long hair, so that helped as well. :) I also gained much weight (30 lbs) during those months, in part due to HRT (especially Androcur-cyproterone acetate) and because I stopped smoking. I was too thin anyways so it was good. :)
I'm doing laser, but they have me do it once every two months and my first treatment seemed to kill only about 20 percent of my beard. So I don't think it's going to be happening for me in 3-4 months but tomorrow is my second laser session on my face so we'll see. They said that after the treatment I should not shave for two weeks for the best results, because otherwise there is a risk of hairs getting stuck under the skin rather than coming out by the end of the two weeks. Did anyone else get told that when doing laser?
So anyway, letting my beard grow for two weeks is going to be a nightmare, and waiting 2 months between sessions means my laser treatment is going slow. I signed up for 14 treatments, meaning 2 years and 4 months and the person who did my first session said she doubts even that will be enough.
And at least most of my beard hair, the hair that shows most prominently as stubble, is black and my skin is white so hopefully that helps.
--
So to summary:
- Thank you again for the answers and especially for sharing your experiences so I could see exactly what YMMV means in this instance.
- I hope the details I went into what I'm doing didn't bore you, I just felt I wanted to share them in response to what you wrote.
- I also hope that it didn't sound like I'm shooting down suggestions or that I don't appreciate them because I really do. If you have more suggestions based on the information I've shared, you're welcome to share them.
- The last two weeks of exercise and the last two traumatic days, especially the wedding where I binged and everyone misgendered me - have taught me a lot about my body and what I need to do with it while waiting and hoping for the hormones to work.
- Thanks to your sharing I am a bit more okay with giving the hormones and laser treatment a year or two to work.
So thank you everyone for all your replies!
BTW, that fitness video of getting female shape and proportions always seemed suspicious for me, because when I watch a workout video, the first thing I pay attention to is how the instroctor looks like. In the manner of speaking, the woman in this video have no waist and I don't think she has a good shape, so If a genetic woman couldn't achieve a nice feminine silhuette, I am not sure I will follow her advices...
I, personally, did these exercises, but IMHO, they don't lead to the desired results. I have found much better and effective solutions (working for me) in YouTube, that are giving results relatively fast.
These are several high intense workouts of Victoria's Secret models (especially Adriana Lima, Candice Swanepoel and Miranda Kerr), combined with Yoga flows - I did the VS workouts on monday, wednesday and friday, and the Yoga - on tuesday and thursday. Of course, this regime have to be combined with proper dieting ;)
For me personally her exercises worked (until I ruined it with tons of junk food in two days) and I'm not sure my waist can get slimmer than it did because of my bone structure. I know it gave me results for fact because I measured my body every day. Then again I only did it for two weeks.
Can you give me links to the resources you mentioned so I can try them too?
The not doing enough/wearing a costume thing resonates with me... and the sad thing is, nothing will solve that but time and patience. I used to feel incredibly awkward every time I presented very feminine, and it showed; over time, I stopped feeling like I was "on stage," and then the impression that I was just wearing a costume also faded in people I interacted with, if that makes sense. The early, awkward, androgynous period can be SO hard, but it does pass. I promise. You'll get there, but the only way to get past this phase is through, unfortunately.
(I also ended up 42DDD and still growing. Be careful what I wish for, I guess!)
Wow, I thought trans people normally have an A or B cup.
BTW, I've been measuring my body daily because I am scientifically minded and obsessive like that to observe the changes without bias getting into it and I am getting spontaneous spurts of breast growth followed by nothing happening with my breasts. Literally, one morning my breast width was the same as usual and then in the evening it grew 2 centimeters and settled there again.
Isn't there also a chance that the phase won't pass and I might need facial surgery? Or is that chance relatively slim?
HRT doesn't do nearly as much for the face for thin people like us, I fear. The same goes for breasts. I'm still a double a after an entire year, and that's just because my entire family is very svelte. My profile pic was taken about a year in to my HRT, and I still have a hard time passing, even with makeup. That being said, things are certainly a lot better now than they were a year ago.
FFS is oftentimes only one way to achieve a more feminine face though; I started experimenting with contouring makeup about six months after I started hormones, and the transformation is really quite dramatic when I have the time to put in all the work required. Mind you, my thumbnail here is usually about half of what I do. It's not an ideal solution, but it can and will work for someone with your features. I'd recommend going a bit further with your highlights, especially on the cheekbones, temples, and a darker contour for the rear jawbone. Also consider sharping your lips with a liner to make them appear larger. You actually have a fairly androgynous face, so with a bit of practice you could probably pass with more involved makeup should you choose!
I think people turn to surgery very quickly without exploring other options. I actually have opted to have FFS, but there is more than one way to feminize your appearance, and you should explore every avenue before putting yourself under the knife and such great expense...You do have some progress to make, but saying that there's no way for you to pass without surgery is certainly premature...best of luck to you!
3 months is increeedibly early!
I think it was around 3 months that I had my first passing experiences at night. They were few and far between, and with a lot of help from makeup and wardrobe.
I wouldn't let it bog you down on making progress in other areas of presentation, and I would recommend starting a savings for yourself. That way in a year or so if you still aren't happy with how you look, you could potentially do some FFS work. If you are happy, though, maybe you could travel somewhere neat or really treat yourself in some way.
And I agree, I think you've got an excellent starting point and you look extremely feminine to begin with :)
Have you ever tried eyeliner? I later found out that was my ticket to passing which started to happen on a fairly consistent basis around 6 or 7 months. Best of luck to you :D
Ruth : I'm sorry for the confusion; I didn't mean there's no chance that you won't need FFS. Unfortunately, as you know, there's no way anyone can know that without a crystal ball. :( But that feeling that you're constantly playing a part/in costume, and the way other people pick up on it and treat you as if you're fake, WILL pass with time and experience. And it's sometimes amazing how far confidence and comfort can take someone in terms of passing, too.
That breast growth pattern is normal, too. They do seem to grow in spurts, and then take "resting periods" - when I bet something is still happening, we just can't see it - and then the cycle begins again.
I've heard the myth about breast size in trans women, but I'm convinced it *is* a myth, since after seeing hundreds of women report their breast development - they seem to be all over the map, just like cis women. (And the average cis female bra size is 36C, but it's an *average*; to get that number, there have to be significant amounts of people both smaller and larger than that.)
QuoteAnd I agree, I think you've got an excellent starting point and you look extremely feminine to begin with
Thank you, Jennygirl! It's amazing how trans and queers can't help but see me as a woman whereas cis people even when they try to see a woman constantly slip up and reveal they see a man. My girlfriend is queer and she often has trouble understanding how people can resist so much the idea I'm a woman and why is it so hard for them? Just shows how immense it would be if our culture evolved and how much it really isn't our fault that others can't see who we are.
Regarding breast development, I guess it depends on overall body shape and size but probably for thinner girls like me I might be stuck in double a. And after all, due to skeletal structure my chest is wider than it would be if I was born female meaning the tissue is spread out on a bigger area so more tissue is needed to reach the same depth and the late age of my second puberty does sound reasonable that it would lower the body's responsiveness to hormones. Then again, I look pretty young for 34, I guess so maybe my body is relatively responsive for my age. Also interestingly enough for me at least my blood before hrt was t the lowest normal for male and e highest normal for male. So my body really wasn't hyper male to begin with.
Just be patient and remember cis girls take around 10 years to fully mature physically. You will get there! :)
Well 3 and a half months for me...
People gender me female in my male clothes , cool story...
still from what I ve seen most people become passable around month 7-10
but it depends...
Yes it is a mix of a lot of things, HRT just being one of them although it does seem to help a lot especially with the body. The other stuff comes with learning and experience over time.
Congrats on being gendered female in male clothes so early on, FalsePrincess :) That is indeed a pretty cool story!
Quote from: Jennygirl on March 29, 2014, 06:21:31 PM
Yes it is a mix of a lot of things, HRT just being one of them although it does seem to help a lot especially with the body. The other stuff comes with learning and experience over time.
Congrats on being gendered female in male clothes so early on, FalsePrincess :) That is indeed a pretty cool story!
Thanks,
what I ve noticed is that when you are early on hrt and present androgynous you can be gendered like both...
for example female at one store male at another...
we shouldnt forget that everyone has a different perception of what is male and what female , so no matter what we do we might not be able to meet somebodys criteria of what female is but we might as well meet somebodys else ...
Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 29, 2014, 06:42:30 PM
Thanks,
what I ve noticed is that when you are early on hrt and present androgynous you can be gendered like both...
for example female at one store male at another...
we shouldnt forget that everyone has a different perception of what is male and what female , so no matter what we do we might not be able to meet somebodys criteria of what female is but we might as well meet somebodys else ...
Yes there are so many factors. A big one I noticed early on was the lighting. For the first 3-4 months of my transition you could find me literally running away in terror if there was a fluorescent overhead light nearby ;)
Quote from: Jennygirl on March 29, 2014, 06:53:29 PM
Yes there are so many factors. A big one I noticed early on was the lighting. For the first 3-4 months of my transition you could find me literally running away in terror if there was a fluorescent overhead light nearby ;)
Haha I generally avoid bright light like that too :D ;)
As if the light will reveal my manliness ,,,go figure XD
I'm not sure but as I pinch myself, it's been nearly 6 months now on HRT.
Changes have been significant as I can really see differences that normal people would not.
Recently noticed just how much leaning down has happened in my legs and arms as well as a reduction in body hair.
Skin and face have softened significantly. Padding is no longer required as girls are growing nicely now.
I try to hide it and it's getting hard to present as male at the moment.
I'm sure if I tried I could pass but not just yet but not far away now.
Thus I could say 6 months, but some how I know it wont take too much more time.
The goal is now so very close and one huge step into the unknown.
Jen
Thing is, HRT isn't going to do all that much to your face except soften the skin and redistribute the fat a bit, after nine months I certainly look younger by almost ten years (I'm 48) but I don't think that is what made me passable. Beard growth will slow and soften a bit but laser/electro is the only way to deal with it permanently. Unfortunately features that are fixed due to bone and cartlidge can only be changed by surgery.
I'm doing laser as well, not just HRT so that should help with the stubble hopefully within a year. I hope my fat redistribution and laser hair removal will be enough to get me gendered female, because I really don't like the idea of surgery. Nor do I have the ability to make that kind of cash.
About 6 months to a year I got out of the awkward duckling stage. I got a big round arse, but the beard seems to just make up everyone's mind. Probably a bit easier for the guys, cause we get the voice change and face fuzz.
Weirder though, I swear my face got more angular. My hairline also receded a bit. I think it moved to my back. <_<
Edit: Whoops. I see this topic is mostly for the ladies. Apologies.
I think that taking care of your skin and hands is more important than HRT when it comes to passing. I have not done any laser or electro, and won't anytime soon unless I win the lottery. I always use very good quality shave products and I have started using better quality facial care products (cleansers, scrubs, and moisturizers). I also have been getting manicures regularly. I have not had anyone misguider me since I started getting manicures. It is subtle, but well cared for and groomed nails go a long way in helping you pass.
Hmmm it's tough to say. I was passing before I even realized I was passing if that makes sense?
About 6 months on hrt. I finally had my voice down but the resonance was still weak. Also I wasn't going out much in public. So I didn't really have any kind of feed back with the whole public presentation thing until I was about a year on hrt. I went to the mall with two of my friends. And they wanted to try on prom dresses. So we picked out our dresses and as we were heading to the changing room. One of the store employees yelled out to me, "SIR YOU AREN'T ALLOWED IN THERE". I turned around walked up to her and looked her in the eyes and she quickly said, "Oh I'm sorry I thought you were male from the way your hair looked from behind"(It was in a pony tail idk lol what she could of saw) So I said no problem and smiled then walked on to the dressing room. I was in my skinnys and just a t->-bleeped-<- plus a sports bra(no makeup). The prom dress turned out to be a size too small unfortunately. My friends tried so hard to zip me up lol... So yeah I guess that was my first passing moment. I hadn't even begun laser yet. So I still had shadow, not extreme but very faded. Hrt does that much at least! It was in a department store to, so the lighting was pretty bright.
In these past 5 years of transition I've learned that it's really about how you carry yourself more than anything when it comes to "passing"
I really don't think nails will help me in my case and I'm not into that. I want to be a tom boy girl. I want my face to scream female without makeup and wear clothes that are feminine but not extremely so. Especially since doing so makes me feel like a charicature of a woman.
My shadow is very noticeable 3 months into my HRT. Today I zapped my face for the second time. I guess I'll see in two weeks if it gets significantly better.
About the way I carry myself, people tell me I move in a naturally feminine way and that my gestures are naturally feminine and I knew they were for years even before I knew I was trans... I always knew that I naturally move feminine. I think that in my case it's really my face and my voice, and it's hard for me to feel motivated to work on my voice as long as my face doesn't pass. People spot me miles away despite the clothes, despite the movement, before I open my mouth... they somehow see a man. My guess is it's just the structure of my face.
I especially love girls with full cheeks in flannel shirts, that because of their face you can't mistake they are female even when they wear male clothes. That's where I want to be. I don't like makeup. I don't like showing parts of my body. I just want a feminine face.
Quote from: Jennygirl on March 29, 2014, 06:53:29 PM
Yes there are so many factors. A big one I noticed early on was the lighting. For the first 3-4 months of my transition you could find me literally running away in terror if there was a fluorescent overhead light nearby ;)
Oh goodness Jenny - that made me laugh - it's so true!
Give me a nice mellow restaurant any day; fluorescent lighting is a nightmare. I can't wait for my beard to just go away already!
Here in Madrid I take the metro a lot because it's convenient, and sometimes I feel sooooo self-conscious. Interesting though, people don't look at me much during the early Saturday evening, but they're a lot more obvious at the end of the night. Maybe that's because at that point I look a bit less pretty, or because alcohol has removed some of their inhibitions...
Let's see what happens this weekend - I've just bought quite a cute wig while I wait for my hair to grow past the "what-is-that-thing" stage, so maybe my situation might improve a bit :laugh:
xxx
J
Beard shadow is a huge gender marker, which is why half of my electrologist's clients are cis women who are tired of being mistaken for feminine men.
Here is a secret that you might not learn from your lesbian girlfriend. There is a whole art to subtle makeup that corrects skin tone or contours without appearing to be any makeup at all.
Androgen-style facial hair causes fair skinned people to have a bluish shadow even where the hair is completely clean shaven. The way to correct this is using color theory. Use a mineral makeup concealer that is orange toned. You won't need much, just enough to cancel the blueness. Then your whole face gets a light toned BB cream or tinted moisturizer.
didn't help me a bit, on a good day I still look like Robert Plant.
Quote from: Julia-Madrid on April 04, 2014, 09:26:38 AM
Oh goodness Jenny - that made me laugh - it's so true!
Give me a nice mellow restaurant any day; fluorescent lighting is a nightmare. I can't wait for my beard to just go away already!
Here in Madrid I take the metro a lot because it's convenient, and sometimes I feel sooooo self-conscious. Interesting though, people don't look at me much during the early Saturday evening, but they're a lot more obvious at the end of the night. Maybe that's because at that point I look a bit less pretty, or because alcohol has removed some of their inhibitions...
Let's see what happens this weekend - I've just bought quite a cute wig while I wait for my hair to grow past the "what-is-that-thing" stage, so maybe my situation might improve a bit :laugh:
xxx
J
Lol... What is this "thing" stage you speak of? I wore my androgyny with pride! And I revelled in the staring contests I would get in with people ;) Might have been a lot different if I didn't live in Los Angeles though!
And yes. To this day I still tell my friends that I refuse to go into a place just because the lighting is so bad. I don't really refuse, though... I just kind of make a big icky face upon stepping into it. Those lights should be banned from the planet forever!
Oddly enough, I don't know the answer to this question. Do I even pass today? I stopped caring ages ago and just went full time.
I'm me, I'm big, BFD. I suppose at some point I passed femme of center, but I can't put my finger on when that was exactly.
Quote from: Jennygirl on April 04, 2014, 03:38:37 PM
Lol... What is this "thing" stage you speak of? I wore my androgyny with pride! And I revelled in the staring contests I would get in with people ;) Might have been a lot different if I didn't live in Los Angeles though!
Hey Jenny - I was being deliberately vague - the thing could be me or it could be my hair ;D. Actually I recognise totally and fully that this year I will be very androgynous, and have no problem with it! People here don't really stare, but gimme some time and I'm sure I will find some glaring exceptions...
Tonight was quite weird though - first time I've gone out in full fiesta nighttime makeup, and I was pleasantly surprised at how anonymous I was, or maybe deep down I wanted to be less anonymous, LOL. Oh, the contradictions! ¡¡...Olé...!!
Hugs
J
Quote from: Aquarelle on March 28, 2014, 09:08:31 AM
Maybe it will sound a little bit discouraging, but I am more than 13 months on HRT and I don't think I pass... Still a lot of people call me "sir"... I am not even thinking about fulltime at this stage :(
That's about the time I will think about going full time, when people start calling me "ma'am". I know people say it is all about self confidence, but nothing will boost it like someone seeing me as female when I'm in boy mode.
I have an androgynous face so I was already part of the way there before I started taking HRT. In the first 3 months or so in girl mode guys would stare at me for some reason but women didn't. Now I'm at 6 months and it's the other way - I see women checking me out and guys seem to ignore me. I had been on low dose HRT for some number of years before the full strength stuff but I don't think it made that much difference physically.
Today I can go either way. If i put on boy clothes and do a boy style haircut then voila! I am an average middle aged guy. If I doll myself up and put on a wig and heels Eva appears.
So far I have been lucky and have not been misgendered in either presentation.
So for me I'd say somewhere between 3-6 months.
I'm right there where Aquarelle is at, and I'm at 16 months solid, started hrt 11/27/2012. People have told me I'm 41, when I'm really 46, so its a plus. I'm going for the "boy fail" mode, so I'll see at 24, 36, 48, 60, and 72 months. Once past 72 months, then its maybe ffs and a ba, among other things.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 30, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
I really don't think nails will help me in my case and I'm not into that. I want to be a tom boy girl. I want my face to scream female without makeup and wear clothes that are feminine but not extremely so. Especially since doing so makes me feel like a charicature of a woman.
My shadow is very noticeable 3 months into my HRT. Today I zapped my face for the second time. I guess I'll see in two weeks if it gets significantly better.
About the way I carry myself, people tell me I move in a naturally feminine way and that my gestures are naturally feminine and I knew they were for years even before I knew I was trans... I always knew that I naturally move feminine. I think that in my case it's really my face and my voice, and it's hard for me to feel motivated to work on my voice as long as my face doesn't pass. People spot me miles away despite the clothes, despite the movement, before I open my mouth... they somehow see a man. My guess is it's just the structure of my face.
I especially love girls with full cheeks in flannel shirts, that because of their face you can't mistake they are female even when they wear male clothes. That's where I want to be. I don't like makeup. I don't like showing parts of my body. I just want a feminine face.
Likewise, I feel the sameway. I want people to see a woman without having to dress ultra girly, since that isn't really me. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I have to dress in lace and flower patterns. I'd be comfortable in tight jeans and a hoody, with my hair back or under a beanie, unfortunately though it may make passing more difficult down the line. I'm guessing that's where FFS comes in >_<
So basically the bottom line is I need to wait two years for hormones and laser to do their thing and by then it is reasonable to assume my face won't change more without surgery?
I think that's a safe bet. A lot of girls seem to wait around 12 months before doing the surgical stuff. But then again, a lot of girls say that they see more changes as the years go on and even after SRS/orchiectomy. Two years is a really good amount of time to give things to settle!
I think, like everything, it varies by person. 2 years seems like a reasonable point, but I and others *have* seen changes since then, so who knows. (Of course, it's more subtle now, and it might just be aging. ;) I don't *think* so, but how could I tell...?)
Hrt didnt make me pass, it just doesn't work that way, ffs surgery made me pass..
Jebee : I beg to differ. That's your experience, but it's not everyone's. I haven't been misgendered since six months into HRT, and that includes doctors and people doing up-close exams (that didn't involve my pre-op genitals, obviously). Some people need FFS, and more people choose it, and that's absolutely fine, but it's not necessary for *everyone.*
Heck, I've had people ARGUE with me when I said I was trans! They thought I was joking...
I couldn't agree more Jenna.
Yep and that's why it's a good idea to wait a little while. Sometimes people end up extremely passable from HRT alone. Sometimes though we need a little help with the bone structure part. And also don't forget that getting FFS can actually be unsatisfactory too. But it is rare that it will harm the looks of a face if in the hands of a good surgeon.
I started a few weeks before my twentieth birth day and I still don't think I pass despite being on hrt for over three years now. I look andro even in boy or girl mode. Here is a pic of my boy mode with no make up on or anything.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhJOdm1W.png&hash=6a768dddf314277471e33e7f0848813ab8d9c571)
Before HRT I passed 30% of the time.
I really started to pass (80% of the time) somewhere after 3 months (I already had a somewhat female face / figure).
At the 5 months marker I almost always pass.
From looking at your photos, plucking your eyebrows thinner and higher will do an insane degree of feminisation to your face.
Also: Earrings/Get your ears pierced. Earrings are insanely important.
I think you'd pass well with your eyebrows done and earrings.
Quote from: jebee on April 05, 2014, 06:11:26 PM
Hrt didnt make me pass, it just doesn't work that way, ffs surgery made me pass..
HRT and electrolysis made me pass. They were both instrumental for me. Don't underestimate the effects of HRT.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PM
Hey, I'm 3 months on mtf hrt and my face is what I have the most dysphoria about. I feel there have been absolutely no changes there unfortunately though I have been getting some breast growth... but as I said the face is most important to me and breast growth feels worthless to me if my face doesn't change.
I'm a non op transgender doing hormones and laser and I want to avoid other operations if possible. Me not wanting to do bottom surgery means in my country I am denied any financial help with other surgeries because I "am not a full woman" according to the sex change commitee here in Israel :/
So basically 3 questions... and I know YMMV which is why I hope to get lots of answers to see the general range of possabilities.
First: poll! Did HRT do enough to your face to allow you to pass without facial surgery and if so how long did it take or when did you start seeing changes?
Second: How long should I wait to see what HRT and laser hair removal do before it's likely this is as good as it gets and I need to consider surgery if it's not enough?
Third: I always was skinny even now after hormones I have to "work hard" to get fat and it always goes first to the tummy before it spreads elsewhere, and I lose it elsewhere before I lose it in my tummy... and I want to pass but I also want to stay skinny. Could that be stifling my transition or probably it's just going to take time either way?
Thanks in advance to anyone who answers! And my apologies if this has been asked a lot...
This is a video I shot 4 days ago so you can see how I look now. People still refer to me as male all the time and I want to work in acting and no one hires me because I don't look female enough for them and I don't want to work as a man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LxV_D5EOkE
I got really lucky. I have a real girly face even without hormones and I have always passed easily. I don't even wear makeup but I have been taking estrogen now for about six months and I'm starting to see facial changes like more pronounced cheek bones, changes to the eyes and skin softening. It take a while though. I have some small breasts too but nothing to get too excited about. If I can get an orchiectomy I think I'll see better results from the estrogen. I'm also very petite which helps a lot.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PM
So basically 3 questions... and I know YMMV which is why I hope to get lots of answers to see the general range of possabilities.
First: poll! Did HRT do enough to your face to allow you to pass without facial surgery and if so how long did it take or when did you start seeing changes?
At 3 months on HRT, I was starting to be able to pass even without makeup. The facial hair was the biggest factor on me passing.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PM
Second: How long should I wait to see what HRT and laser hair removal do before it's likely this is as good as it gets and I need to consider surgery if it's not enough?
For surgery, you definitely want to wait at least a year on HRT before even seeing a surgeon about it.
Laser hair removal only works on dark hair and fair skin. For me it looks like after the 6th or 7th session, I'll be done (I've had 5 sessions.) I still have some white hairs to deal with with electrolysis. (I've been doing both at the same time with my electrologists working only on the white hairs.) So people can take up to 10-14 sessions for laser. (Sessions are about 5 weeks apart from each other.)
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on March 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PM
Third: I always was skinny even now after hormones I have to "work hard" to get fat and it always goes first to the tummy before it spreads elsewhere, and I lose it elsewhere before I lose it in my tummy... and I want to pass but I also want to stay skinny. Could that be stifling my transition or probably it's just going to take time either way?
I would not stay too skinny so you can build up your breasts. Once they come in, you can loose the tummy and the breasts will stay then. It's just my opinion based on what I've seen, but your mileage may vary.