So this sounds kind of weird but, what am i supposed to do if I want to be in a gay relationship? Like, if for some reason i definitely want to be a boy in the relationship and that part is important to me? Is that weird? Am i just fetishizing it? I didn't tell my boyfriend this but secretly i like the idea that if I detransition and he stays with me then we could be a gay couple.
I never dated as a boy btw, i was still working thru some intimacy issues then. And I always crushed on straight guys.
But yeah, I've been thinking about it and this is definitely a component in why i want to detransition but I'm not sure how much...
Mmm... can anyone relate? :(
I don't think it's unnatural to fantasize about being the other sex, but if you're considering stopping HRT I'd be very careful and see a psychiatrist and endocrinologist. You have real issues that must be addressed. Get professional help.
Well I'm not really thinking about HRT either way right now. I haven't told my therapist about this though... like I'm afraid if I say I want to be a boy she'll start seeing me as a different person than I really am... argh :x
In a way?
I don't really have much of an internal concept of gender. But the closest thing I have is super tied up with being gay.
It's hard to describe exactly. Heh. Dragging into the dark recesses of my head. But I related in some kind of way to stories of queer women, long before I knew what transgender or transition was. Like it made sense to me, for me.
I know I'm wrong and sexuality and gender aren't connected and blahblah. But "dyke" is still about the closest thing I have to a true gender identity. Because I can read Fingersmith and feel that twinge of connection that I never get with a guy and a girl. And I'll never be convinced that my relationship with my girl is the same as a hetero relationship. It just isn't. Not in this world as it is now anyway.
So I dunno. What is it about being in a gay relationship that appeals? Can you isolate the feeling as connected to anything in particular?
Well, it's not like I necessarily see it as special, because I think love is beautiful and can connect to that in pretty much any form, but then, hmmm, yeah there is something about being a gay boy that I feel called to somehow.
I guess that in the way I imagine it, there's like a purity there that a hetero relationship wouldn't have, even though i know that's not really the truth. But also it would feel like I'm loved exactly for me, y'know if I was a cis boy, because it wouldn't be like I'm loved for how close i come to being something else, a cis girl. Even though my picture of a relationship will always be hopelessly heteronormative because i need that from a partner, I guess as a boy it would just somehow feel more true, or something like that. It would feel unique, like being free of all the expectations and ideas of what love is supposed to be and just finding our own way. But i guess as a straight girl with a straight guy, our relationship is this like entity that I don't even feel complete ownership of. Like we are just a retelling of a classic story. but maybe that's not it, and there's just a part of me that sees myself as a boy, because I lived as a boy growing up and I spend a lot of time reliving the past. And maybe bc I was abused, my initial sexual identity is still built around that, even if then it wasn't consensual and it absolutely wasn't equal... :/ (not something i want to talk about much though, but abuse does change people and it did change me too.)
Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much, I am not really sure why i feel this way. Maybe I am just idealizing it. Cuz I tend to do that and my mental image of it is very picky. I don't know if I'd still be interested if i were more of an adult or felt more self assured and in control of my life, or if I wasn't allowed to be very girly or was treated like a man as opposed to like a boy. But then i just don't feel like that kind of person, so maybe it's just ultimately that I want to be loved for me. I want it to feel real if I ask my partner, do you love my body? And they say yes, like there's not a fine print. I want to be someone's ideal, not someone's exception. But then gay guys probably wouldn't like my body anyway since it's just a girl's body with one abnormality. :/ idk. I'm confused.
Hmm I think you should try things out as much as you can. Though I know it'll probably be difficult for you to pass as a boy. You're clearly soul searching for your identity. And sexuality is a big part of that. I know it's important to differentiate between sexuality and gender. But I do think sexuality plays a role in gender roles and stuff. Obviously, whether you identify as male or female, you like men. I think you probably feel unsettled and between roles? I think you should just explore whatever you feel like. I know there are probably limitations with passing as male and stuff. But just, relax and explore.
I think though, that unless you have a strong male identity and really just transitioned for your boyfriend or because it's more accepted for your feminine personality - that you're just you. And not really male or female. And it doesn't matter. I feel that way sometimes. You don't have to be a man or a woman. Or even a trans woman. Just you. Because of our binary society, you'll probably be taken for one or the other. You can't help that. Just try to find what you're most comfortable with - for everything. Maybe stop hormones, just to see. Maybe stop dressing like a girl just to see.
There are masculine women who simply identify as 'butch'. Not male or female. "Butch". Maybe yours is simply 'feminine person' or something.
I have to agree with Nero.
I think the explanation for the thing, in the end is not as important as the basic feels. If what you are doing feels bad, than maybe it isn't right for you. And it's okay to not have all the answers all at once. There is a crazy pressure on us to assert "this is what I am exactly forever and ever and I know for sure" because we frequently have to fight against those who think we are wrong or broken or whatever. But it doesn't always work like that. It can take a while to sort through how you really want to live in this world if you are something other than Standard Trans Narrative (TM). Sometimes you need to be free to explore a bit. It's okay to not be sure.
I tried to force myself into being what people expected a trans woman to be. It lasted about two months before I felt like I was going to lose my mind. Now I don't really see myself as a woman of any variety. Just as a female person who frequently gets categorized as one.
Gotta make your own story, nah?
I haven't read everything here, but if your guy sees you as a woman and you've identified as one, this might be exactly what he doesn't want or who he can identify with if you detransition. I'm with a guy, and if I did what you're doing, he'd be very, very unhappy, so much so that I don't think he'd stay. He didn't become my SO with me as a male, he sees me as 100% female, has never been in a gay relationship and for me personally, it seems strange to want to detransition. But if that's what you want to do, better now than later, at a time when you can't detransition without a mastectomy, your thang has shriveled up and you've already gotten all your facial hair zapped. I'd think long and hard on this, girl, and I'd talk to your endo and psychiatrist too. Hugs, and good luck whichever way you decide. Mira
I don't know much about you expect for a couple PMs and general stuff, but would your BF stay with you if your detransition? I know for me, my BF would not be with me as he is in no way attracted to men or anyone remotely manly, so that would be the end of that. We aren't technically together right now as we have been working thru some issues but things are so much better and we talk all the time and maybe it won't work out, but if I did, he'd stay friends and that's it. If that, as he might have trouble seeing me as a boy. He was enamored by boobs today and kept wanting to play with them, like almost in public, but not really.
But, you clearly want to lately, so, IDK, do it. You'll pass eventually and will have to cut your hair and stop plucking. Ouch that will hurt, but you could take T and there you go. Before you do this though, I'd be sure it's the path you ant to take, because finding a man trans is hard enough and you may destroy the relationship and once it's gone...where then?
There is nothing weird about it. From what I gather, this is just another extension of your desires to be cis and no longer live as a transwoman. You are entitled to feel that way, and that doesn't make you odd. If you feel less genuine living as female, it really doesn't sound too out there to see why you'd enjoy being a guy in a relationship. It's about seeing who you are and how you feel rather than talking about what your role in the relationship is like. Overall, the need for authenticity likely will play a role in all aspects of life which could include how one perceives their love life.
Can't say I relate, though I don't really think about my gender either way when considering romance. Sure, my dream relationship would have me in the "female" role and I see myself as female, but who is to say that there is a universal female or male role in a relationship. Like a guy or girl can easily take the more feminine role without it really saying anything about their gender and/ or sexuality. For me, I just think about what my partner could be like and how'd they would ideally treat me. Like what I want out of relationship regardless of how I look. And honestly, I think I could be happy in a gay relationship with a man if he were to treat me nice and he was a good guy, but I guess the desire for authenticity and being seen for who I am would exist and ultimately create problems, as it does for everything. Again, this is why authenticity and not living a lie is desirable for all of us even if what that is differs person to person.
Something which I'm curious about...
I'm a lesbian... While I can appreciate all women, its only bi or gay women who I go weak at the knees for.
As a guy, able to date all the straight women I wanted, it was okay, but there was always something missing beyond my issues. The deeper connection never formed with girlfriends. It was until I was with a bi partner ( who knew I'm trans ) that this deeper connection formed. It was what was missing in all previous relationships.
I guess in summary, I could always tell the difference between a straight and gay partner. And it went beyond my trans issues i think.
So ok, you like guys. But gay guys? Or straight guys? Orientation seems secondary to gender identity.
homosexuality is actually normal, never feel ashamed of you are, if you still want to be a male and be with a male then you should its not weird or abnormal since everyone has a different sexuality look at me for example, im a girl inside but I still like girls so to me im a lesbian which is a female who is gay no offense to no one only making an example. it might be hard for others since trans and homo are both hard things to live as, but it can be done and I know plenty of people who are, my uncle and cousin are and they are perfectly living fine so its doable. my opinion is be yourself if that's how u feel inside then go for it, everyone is different inside with different feelings and for me I totally accept people who are trans or gay since im a nice person and see everyone as an equal person and for who they are. if you ever want to talk you can always pm me anyway this is not to offend no one just stating my point. if anyone has a problem with it just let me know in a reply or pm thank you.
Quote from: SammyRose on April 09, 2014, 09:38:44 PM
Something which I'm curious about...
I'm a lesbian... While I can appreciate all women, its only bi or gay women who I go weak at the knees for.
As a guy, able to date all the straight women I wanted, it was okay, but there was always something missing beyond my issues. The deeper connection never formed with girlfriends. It was until I was with a bi partner ( who knew I'm trans ) that this deeper connection formed. It was what was missing in all previous relationships.
I guess in summary, I could always tell the difference between a straight and gay partner. And it went beyond my trans issues i think.
So ok, you like guys. But gay guys? Or straight guys? Orientation seems secondary to gender identity.
PErhaps it's a sign of my lack of dating experience, but I can't relate to this. Like for me, I can be attracted to both gay and straight guys as it's the person that matters most and not the sexuality; however, gender often does dictate how people are treated in a relationship and how partners view one another. I don't think it should be that way, but it usually it causes the relationship dynamics to alter. That's probably why I wouldn't really find "gay" dating would work for me as I want to be treated and seen a certain way (in addition to wanting to feel authentic with a partner) though I'm considering of giving it a go before I go full time because I'm so lonely and crave romance.
Though this raises a point. Sad Panda, do you think the dynamics of your relationship and how you are percieved by your partner would change if you were seen as a boy? Do you think for the better? I get where the authenticity point comes from, but something tells me you probably prefer the typical "female" role even though it's stupid that it is labelled as such as gender and/or sexuality shouldn't define romantic roles. I'm curious to hear your take.
Quote from: learningtolive on April 09, 2014, 10:16:27 PM
PErhaps it's a sign of my lack of dating experience, but I can't relate to this. Like for me, I can be attracted to both gay and straight guys as it's the person that matters most and not the sexuality; however, gender often does dictate how people are treated in a relationship and how partners view one another. I don't think it should be that way, but it usually it causes the relationship dynamics to alter. That's probably why I wouldn't really find "gay" dating would work for me as I want to be treated and seen a certain way (in addition to wanting to feel authentic with a partner) though I'm considering of giving it a go before I go full time because I'm so lonely and crave romance.
Though this raises a point. Sad Panda, do you think the dynamics of your relationship and how you are percieved by your partner would change if you were seen as a boy? Do you think for the better? I get where the authenticity point comes from, but something tells me you probably prefer the typical "female" role even though it's stupid that it is labelled as such as gender and/or sexuality shouldn't define romantic roles. I'm curious to hear your take.
that's actually very hard to say, there are people who are confused of who they are, or if they really feel like a woman inside, it all depends there are people who are gay but crossdress they are called drag queens then there are others who crossdress because it turns them on, everyone is different inside. as for me im not attracted to men because I am disgusted by underarm hair and chest hair, and a dick no offense to language I cant stand it, I am attacted to a womans vagina I think it tastes good. so for me woman will be the only ones I would be attacted to and I am a girl inside always have been but some are heterosexual and some arnt, so its all based on how u feel inside. if u feel normal as a guy then u are if u arnt and feel like a girl than you do like I said in prevous post im not gonna discriminate against no one, im acceptive to who they want to be, that's what life is and that's what this country is about everyone has equal rights so do what you want to, you are free to do so and don't let no one say otherwise and if anyone does then kick there ass since they should keep there big mouth shut. most accept me but a lot of people who know me are afraid of me also I do have an evil side.
Quote from: sad panda on April 09, 2014, 12:26:26 PM
Well, it's not like I necessarily see it as special, because I think love is beautiful and can connect to that in pretty much any form, but then, hmmm, yeah there is something about being a gay boy that I feel called to somehow.
I guess that in the way I imagine it, there's like a purity there that a hetero relationship wouldn't have, even though i know that's not really the truth. But also it would feel like I'm loved exactly for me, y'know if I was a cis boy, because it wouldn't be like I'm loved for how close i come to being something else, a cis girl. Even though my picture of a relationship will always be hopelessly heteronormative because i need that from a partner, I guess as a boy it would just somehow feel more true, or something like that. It would feel unique, like being free of all the expectations and ideas of what love is supposed to be and just finding our own way. But i guess as a straight girl with a straight guy, our relationship is this like entity that I don't even feel complete ownership of. Like we are just a retelling of a classic story. but maybe that's not it, and there's just a part of me that sees myself as a boy, because I lived as a boy growing up and I spend a lot of time reliving the past. And maybe bc I was abused, my initial sexual identity is still built around that, even if then it wasn't consensual and it absolutely wasn't equal... :/ (not something i want to talk about much though, but abuse does change people and it did change me too.)
Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much, I am not really sure why i feel this way. Maybe I am just idealizing it. Cuz I tend to do that and my mental image of it is very picky. I don't know if I'd still be interested if i were more of an adult or felt more self assured and in control of my life, or if I wasn't allowed to be very girly or was treated like a man as opposed to like a boy. But then i just don't feel like that kind of person, so maybe it's just ultimately that I want to be loved for me. I want it to feel real if I ask my partner, do you love my body? And they say yes, like there's not a fine print. I want to be someone's ideal, not someone's exception. But then gay guys probably wouldn't like my body anyway since it's just a girl's body with one abnormality. :/ idk. I'm confused.
I used to think of things like this, a lot. I felt like I was somehow invading where only the genuine belonged, especially when it came to romance. The hetero-normative picture was really important to me. I only felt attracted to straight guys, and I downright hated that being trans could, somehow, ever risk my authenticity in completing the other half of that picture.
And then, I think, two moments happened for me: I became really exhausted of the back-and-forth with age (I'm 28 atm), and I also sat down and asked myself if I would ever think these things of other trans people. If I thought it was fair. For me, that's a definite no. I felt like I was making up special rules for myself that I wasn't applying to other people. How is that even remotely fair? Especially to me? It wasn't. It was totally crazy and I needed to stop localizing transphobia on myself.
I'm not trying to say you're doing the same thing, but I do think it's food for thought. Some of your posts really seem to focus on a fear of how ideal you might be, which is really an awful pit to be trapped in for long. I know I'm still trying to get the stains out, myself.
Wow thanks everyone for your posts. Thinking a lot more about this. And I'm glad maybe i don't seem too crazy. :/
Quote from: FA on April 09, 2014, 12:57:40 PM
Hmm I think you should try things out as much as you can. Though I know it'll probably be difficult for you to pass as a boy. You're clearly soul searching for your identity. And sexuality is a big part of that. I know it's important to differentiate between sexuality and gender. But I do think sexuality plays a role in gender roles and stuff. Obviously, whether you identify as male or female, you like men. I think you probably feel unsettled and between roles? I think you should just explore whatever you feel like. I know there are probably limitations with passing as male and stuff. But just, relax and explore.
I think though, that unless you have a strong male identity and really just transitioned for your boyfriend or because it's more accepted for your feminine personality - that you're just you. And not really male or female. And it doesn't matter. I feel that way sometimes. You don't have to be a man or a woman. Or even a trans woman. Just you. Because of our binary society, you'll probably be taken for one or the other. You can't help that. Just try to find what you're most comfortable with - for everything. Maybe stop hormones, just to see. Maybe stop dressing like a girl just to see.
There are masculine women who simply identify as 'butch'. Not male or female. "Butch". Maybe yours is simply 'feminine person' or something.
Yeah, I definitely want to experiment more, though I find it hard to actually do and I've been asking myself for a while now... in terms of me, what actually is a male presentation? How do you do that without going intentionally over the top if you aren't masculine and don't want to be +don't have the body to match?
I mean obviously I lived as a boy at one time, i should know right? But i don't really because before I was getting by with the best i could do. Always getting the wrong, bland haircut from hairdressers who couldn't get over a boy with long hair and just wouldn't listen. Rarely able to buy new clothes and never able to take myself to special stores with a better size range or more fashionable options. Slowly I was finding me as I got little bits of independence to allow me to experiment but i was pretty bad off in the independence department and ultimately I never figured it out before transitioning. And as I got closer to figuring it out i was passing as a boy less and less anyway. Now that I have freedom and can actually envision proper boy me, yeah, I'm positive I wouldn't pass, and that probably doesn't matter but then am I just being a rebel for nothing and to no effect? It's not about HRT either since I spent most of the first year of full time with basically normal male hormone levels.
I guess it's hard cuz any men's style clothes could be women's clothes too, at some level you just have to look the part, right?
It feels like I'm always butting up against this weird boundary though, between just being me vs being something presented, and somewhere on the presented side I also become trans, and i don't really like it but I don't know what to change or how, all the sides of my life are pressing at me and screaming, "commit!!!!" and it's just like but when will I know that I'm finally actually committing to me?
But like you said, in my head I'm just femme, it's real life that causes problems. :( Maybe the biggest problem is that I'm so uncomfortable with being on the outside exactly what I am on the inside... I just feel this need to conform to something outside of me. Something normal. I feel uncomfortable if I don't have that I guess.
Quote from: Sarah7 on April 09, 2014, 05:14:49 PM
I have to agree with Nero.
I think the explanation for the thing, in the end is not as important as the basic feels. If what you are doing feels bad, than maybe it isn't right for you. And it's okay to not have all the answers all at once. There is a crazy pressure on us to assert "this is what I am exactly forever and ever and I know for sure" because we frequently have to fight against those who think we are wrong or broken or whatever. But it doesn't always work like that. It can take a while to sort through how you really want to live in this world if you are something other than Standard Trans Narrative (TM). Sometimes you need to be free to explore a bit. It's okay to not be sure.
I tried to force myself into being what people expected a trans woman to be. It lasted about two months before I felt like I was going to lose my mind. Now I don't really see myself as a woman of any variety. Just as a female person who frequently gets categorized as one.
Gotta make your own story, nah?
Definitely, but when do you trust how you feel? lol :(
I really am starting to think that maybe it's just me, it seems like most people have a pretty good idea of how they feel, but I just don't trust myself. I'm so impressionable and prone to fantasizing and wanting things that don't actually feel good when I get them. I mean, I felt like being a girl would make me happy too but it didn't. It just confused me more. I know it's not like I *have* to find an answer right away either but... I wish I didn't have all these nagging questions hanging around unanswered too. :x
Quote from: Miranda Catherine on April 09, 2014, 08:54:11 PM
I haven't read everything here, but if your guy sees you as a woman and you've identified as one, this might be exactly what he doesn't want or who he can identify with if you detransition. I'm with a guy, and if I did what you're doing, he'd be very, very unhappy, so much so that I don't think he'd stay. He didn't become my SO with me as a male, he sees me as 100% female, has never been in a gay relationship and for me personally, it seems strange to want to detransition. But if that's what you want to do, better now than later, at a time when you can't detransition without a mastectomy, your thang has shriveled up and you've already gotten all your facial hair zapped. I'd think long and hard on this, girl, and I'd talk to your endo and psychiatrist too. Hugs, and good luck whichever way you decide. Mira
Well i told him I won't essentially be a different person, and it's really impossible for me to look ultimately that masculine so I think there's a chance, but getting over the hurdle of being perceived as gay or having to tell people he has a boyfriend or something would be really unpleasant for him. I got him to say he'd stay with me but who knows what that means, he might just be saying that bc he knows I can't do much on my own anyway. :/ None of my transition is permanent though beyond the boobs, my body isn't really that different at all, i never had hair removal or anything though I never particularly grew much facial hair anyway, and even after 2 yrs now my genitals didn't change in any way I could tell.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 09, 2014, 08:59:36 PM
But, you clearly want to lately, so, IDK, do it. You'll pass eventually and will have to cut your hair and stop plucking. Ouch that will hurt, but you could take T and there you go. Before you do this though, I'd be sure it's the path you ant to take, because finding a man trans is hard enough and you may destroy the relationship and once it's gone...where then?
I still don't get this boys = short hair thing though, I have not had short hair more than briefly since I was like 10 and I never want to. I cried a lot of times when I had to get it short as a child, I just hated it. As a boy I still wanted really long hair and styled it and was always cycling thru a billion products. I definitely am not gonna give that up now. Short hair just is not me, i'm more sure of that than my own gender lol. (Nor is dirty or ratty or damaged hair)
Quote from: learningtolive on April 09, 2014, 09:09:59 PM
There is nothing weird about it. From what I gather, this is just another extension of your desires to be cis and no longer live as a transwoman. You are entitled to feel that way, and that doesn't make you odd. If you feel less genuine living as female, it really doesn't sound too out there to see why you'd enjoy being a guy in a relationship. It's about seeing who you are and how you feel rather than talking about what your role in the relationship is like. Overall, the need for authenticity likely will play a role in all aspects of life which could include how one perceives their love life.
Can't say I relate, though I don't really think about my gender either way when considering romance. Sure, my dream relationship would have me in the "female" role and I see myself as female, but who is to say that there is a universal female or male role in a relationship. Like a guy or girl can easily take the more feminine role without it really saying anything about their gender and/ or sexuality. For me, I just think about what my partner could be like and how'd they would ideally treat me. Like what I want out of relationship regardless of how I look. And honestly, I think I could be happy in a gay relationship with a man if he were to treat me nice and he was a good guy, but I guess the desire for authenticity and being seen for who I am would exist and ultimately create problems, as it does for everything. Again, this is why authenticity and not living a lie is desirable for all of us even if what that is differs person to person.
This definitely is related to my desire to be cis, but it's also something different i think?
In my mind, when i picture myself in a gay relationship, somehow it feels special, like beyond just the fact that I would feel natural and cis and everything. to be fair, a lot of types of relationships feel special, I'm kind of like an emotional vampire in that sense, i love feeling those emotions, but usually they don't actually feel personal. In this case it does feel personally related to me. Like something i could be/want to be.
Ofc yeah... role wise i would always be in the femme role and he would have to be masculine, that is the only way I can picture it, I don't like feminine guys. Well I mean I don't find them attractive.
I think you should try dating now though! I mean why not? c: maybe you'll find a guy that makes you really happy.
Quote from: SammyRose on April 09, 2014, 09:38:44 PM
Something which I'm curious about...
I'm a lesbian... While I can appreciate all women, its only bi or gay women who I go weak at the knees for.
As a guy, able to date all the straight women I wanted, it was okay, but there was always something missing beyond my issues. The deeper connection never formed with girlfriends. It was until I was with a bi partner ( who knew I'm trans ) that this deeper connection formed. It was what was missing in all previous relationships.
I guess in summary, I could always tell the difference between a straight and gay partner. And it went beyond my trans issues i think.
So ok, you like guys. But gay guys? Or straight guys? Orientation seems secondary to gender identity.
I think ideally it would be a straight guy... in a gay relationship with me... lol. I don't have any particular interest in gay guys but I wouldn't write them off either if they were masculine. Ultimately though, yah, it is not about his orientation, just the fact that we are 2 boys in a relationship.
Actually I remember reading this personal story of a femme guy who ended up dating his straight best friend that was really protective of him before that. And it was just freaking adorable. It reminded me of how this guy I knew when I was briefly in college treated to me though he wasn't my type. If i had had the right friend like that before I totally would have wanted a piece of that. Ahahah. But I never had guy friends. ;o;
Come to think of it as a little boy I had a crush on my one male friend though... :/
Quote from: Sybil on April 09, 2014, 10:40:07 PM
I used to think of things like this, a lot. I felt like I was somehow invading where only the genuine belonged, especially when it came to romance. The hetero-normative picture was really important to me. I only felt attracted to straight guys, and I downright hated that being trans could, somehow, ever risk my authenticity in completing the other half of that picture.
And then, I think, two moments happened for me: I became really exhausted of the back-and-forth with age (I'm 28 atm), and I also sat down and asked myself if I would ever think these things of other trans people. If I thought it was fair. For me, that's a definite no. I felt like I was making up special rules for myself that I wasn't applying to other people. How is that even remotely fair? Especially to me? It wasn't. It was totally crazy and I needed to stop localizing transphobia on myself.
I'm not trying to say you're doing the same thing, but I do think it's food for thought. Some of your posts really seem to focus on a fear of how ideal you might be, which is really an awful pit to be trapped in for long. I know I'm still trying to get the stains out, myself.
Well this is an issue that for once is actually not about something I *don't* want to be, like a trans girl, and a question of positively wanting to be something, a femme gay boy. I'm ok with the idea of being a straight girl. but then I will end up fantasizing about what it would be like as a gay boy instead.
Sp I totally get what you are saying and I admit that I struggle with that a lot about being trans, but this issue actually isn't about being trans to me, except that being trans is keeping me from it. But not that I want it because I just don't want to be trans, you know?
Sigh, I'm so afraid to go taking any plunges though... hah. :(
I don't think you'd like the gay community, tbh. I still romanticize it a bit but only my fantasy version..not the reality. It's a vulgar, over the top sex based and objectifying culture. Believe me,for my 2 months in 'detransition' I went to groups, events, pride, etc you name it. Firstly? I was seen as a female 99.9% of that time and my hair was a loot shorter than yours (remember my cropped hair with bangs?). And most of the gay guys treated me really bad cuz I was so androgynous and femme..then ofc lesbians would hit on me and then get b*tchy when I said I was a gay BOY. Then I tried to 'butch up' a bit and got a crew cut and got a bit more positive attention but several people asked if I was FtM actually. But it didn't matter cuz I couldnt be mySELF so I started hormones again two weeks after that haircut, and started passing again a month later, etc.
Then the guys were a lot of over the top, flamboyant, obnoxious arrogant jerks. I went out with a few guys each of which asked if I was transgender. Then mosta the guys that hit on me were older and very predatory cuz I looked like a 12 y/o. Most were bi. Several tried to get me into their BDSM comunnity as a 'subby'. They would also ask uncomfortable questions about my body, genitals etc.
Point is? Yeah the trans* community sucks but the gay one does to. I mean outside idealized fantasies. At least for people like us. And really, your identity? It's what YOU make it. There's not a single person in the world who can say you're not a boy if that's how you feel...and tbh if you just wana be two boys in a relationship and you feel like you ARE one and that's your identity? Then like it or not your bf is already IN that type of relationship.
I guess I was just really let down by the gay community.maybe things woulda been different if I never transitioned to start with, I dunno. Point is? It's a pick your poison kinda deal with you and me.
Me personally, I feel like my identity has become mixed. I'm only ever perceived as female now, and I want to keep transitioning and living a feminine, female presentation but I realize maybe there are fragments of me that like the idea of androgyny and being a boy, regardless of my presentation. I never reallyy got to experience being a boy, I wouldn't say. I've never dated a puurely gay guy, even. So maybe we romanticize the what if of it all? I dunno. I think theres as much beauty as there is tragedy in the whole thing, it's just easier to see the bad stuff. I guess I just see myself stuck in an inbetween, genderless, male/female mix hybridy, androgynous space. But socially I'm female and that's much more comfortable, for me.
Just be yourself, really. These decisions don't need to be so black and white. Wear whatever style feels and tell the world you're whoever you feel like you are. People are so lazy they'll believe it. But, yeah. Sorry, this is rough. I've been having a bad week..my bdays in 2 days, and ugh whatever.
Aww, yeah... I remember when you were having your experiences with gay guys... :c I was so worried lol okay but yeah, i know the gay community can be kinda awful and hypersexual, it's not about the community to me at all, which is funny cuz I'm so fussy about the trans community sometimes. But I guess as a gay boy I'd feel special so I don't need a community or stereotypes or being like other gay boys to validate me (I would get validity from just being cis?) Whereas being trans I feel the opposite of special, I just feel like a worse version of something really normal so I look to community and other people to help me feel valid. Does that make any sense? lol :s
Actually. i guess how i envision it is it being this super special relationship that is something deeper than what other people have. Again why i think I'm not realistic, idk what's wrong with me honestly, maybe there's just always greener grass somewhere :/ but then I just want to feel special for once. like my own person living my own life. Like you were saying, you know? Instead now I'm just constantly losing my individuality to my uhh.. identity? That is so tiring... I guess it really is the same old problem though. Just finding slightly new ways to have it. Good lord, how do people just decide who they are? Or live with leaving stuff like this open ended. Seriously lol. Ahhhhh well... I know you can make sense of whatever the heck I just said anyway.... <3
Man, but why does life always have to be crazy in only the unfun ways ;o;
Quote from: sad panda on April 12, 2014, 12:47:36 AM
Like you were saying, you know? Instead now I'm just constantly losing my individuality to my uhh.. identity? That is so tiring... I guess it really is the same old problem though. Just finding slightly new ways to have it. Good lord, how do people just decide who they are? Or live with leaving stuff like this open ended. Seriously lol. Ahhhhh well... I know you can make sense of whatever the heck I just said anyway.... <3
Man, but why does life always have to be crazy in only the unfun ways ;o;
From not just this thread, but other conversations - I'm wondering if you're feeling transition has just shoved you into another box? I felt like that for a couple years. And suddenly my personality, my identity, looks so different through a different lens.
Quote from: FA on April 12, 2014, 01:23:06 AM
From not just this thread, but other conversations - I'm wondering if you're feeling transition has just shoved you into another box? I felt like that for a couple years. And suddenly my personality, my identity, looks so different through a different lens.
Definitely... sort of. It's a box I mostly fit in is why it's confusing, I guess I just still hate being in a box. And there are other people in here and it's like, uhh hi, I'm here to try out for the box??? And they're all like......... okay......... talk to Gina I guess? And Gina's rewatching her box set of One Tree Hill with Beth who's having a thing right now and she really needs this so I have to stand there like a total dork in my uggs that I used a trick I found on Pinterest to make them look like this isn't their first wear and hopefully the fact that they're knockoffs I got from a Korean ebay seller (shoulda gone with china but then they'd have a smog smell, ugh.)
Uhh, before I *actually* end up trying to be funny or whatevrr, the point is, I get that that is all just a joke I made up about a box in my head.... But i don't have a sense of validity and self esteem to replace it with no matter how aware. i am of the reality, so every time a cis girl is a human being i shrug and say, but I already knew that, hey I have human thoughts I never tell anyone about too.... but then when a stereotype is true I glue a layer of paper around the box, which gets bigger and bigger until eventually I have nowhere else to hang out but inside this friggin' box that I know is absurd but, at least it sort of fits, right? Better than feeling empty right? I have a few friends in here and we're all a little uncomfortable, me a little more than them because they still don't exactly get why I won't find a more comfortable position to sit in, but it's all we got.
And I don't know what even makes me a girl or why I care about being one anyway if it's not that the boy box was horribler, like if maybe I didn't even have, need or want a box before. (I didn't, that's the thing, so why do I need one now right? But I always end up right back in it anyway.)
(sorry I probably am making no sense right now, ahahah, I'm a lil off tonight....)
I guess it just really sucks to transition without the identity part there. Idk.
Quote from: sad panda on April 12, 2014, 12:47:36 AM
Aww, yeah... I remember when you were having your experiences with gay guys... :c I was so worried lol okay but yeah, i know the gay community can be kinda awful and hypersexual, it's not about the community to me at all, which is funny cuz I'm so fussy about the trans community sometimes. But I guess as a gay boy I'd feel special so I don't need a community or stereotypes or being like other gay boys to validate me (I would get validity from just being cis?) Whereas being trans I feel the opposite of special, I just feel like a worse version of something really normal so I look to community and other people to help me feel valid. Does that make any sense? lol :s
Actually. i guess how i envision it is it being this super special relationship that is something deeper than what other people have. Again why i think I'm not realistic, idk what's wrong with me honestly, maybe there's just always greener grass somewhere :/ but then I just want to feel special for once. like my own person living my own life. Like you were saying, you know? Instead now I'm just constantly losing my individuality to my uhh.. identity? That is so tiring... I guess it really is the same old problem though. Just finding slightly new ways to have it. Good lord, how do people just decide who they are? Or live with leaving stuff like this open ended. Seriously lol. Ahhhhh well... I know you can make sense of whatever the heck I just said anyway.... <3
Man, but why does life always have to be crazy in only the unfun ways ;o;
I was being careful tho, but I remembered you worried which was sweet xD
That makes perfect sense actually. I guess the thing you don't need the community if you can find that one special person to love you as you are. Which just takes time really. The thing about being gay is that's what you ARE. People can judge but they can't take it from you. When you're trans you're a knock off of something else so you have to be perfect and beautiful to make up for that, and you stilll need constant valudation. It sucks dude so bad.
I'm glad I don't wish I was a boy at least anymore. I just wish I never started but that's impossible. I'm here if you need to talk, and dw I'm really out of it tonight too
k... I might want to actually. ugh I have to take my hormones but I'm too lazy to get up. lol HRT has become such a trigger for me though..
Quote from: sad panda on April 12, 2014, 02:55:43 AM
k... I might want to actually. ugh I have to take my hormones but I'm too lazy to get up. lol HRT has become such a trigger for me though..
Yeah text me or pm me if you wana skype or whatever. And it feels like all I do is take hormones these days lol xD I think my dose is too high tho but w/e
Quote from: sad panda on April 10, 2014, 12:52:00 AM
I still don't get this boys = short hair thing though, I have not had short hair more than briefly since I was like 10 and I never want to. I cried a lot of times when I had to get it short as a child, I just hated it. As a boy I still wanted really long hair and styled it and was always cycling thru a billion products. I definitely am not gonna give that up now. Short hair just is not me, i'm more sure of that than my own gender lol. (Nor is dirty or ratty or damaged hair)
Sorry, if you misunderstood me. i meant if you want to pass as a boy you might have to cut your hair really, really short and do that comb over things guys do. But, I have shortish hair (more like had now; I'm entering inverted bob territory) and sometimes wear a baseball cap, yet I get callled miss or young lady still, even dressed in andro clothes, though those clothes are women's and the flannel is purple so...yeah...but sorry, ill leave ya be on this topic...i wont lie its hard for me to understand wanting to be a boy...and that goes for anyone...why would anyone want to be a man? so ill shut up now lol
So I'm trying this again... I never know where to post asking about this but if I WERE willing to cut my hair do you think I could pass as a boy? I want to experiment with my presentation I just don't really even know how to present male, it's really weird. :-\ and the most confusing part is I actually think i look like a boy but people don't seem to agree....
http://i.imgur.com/N3LgMue.jpg
btw joanna i don't even care about gender I just am not happy as trans.
Quote from: sad panda on April 15, 2014, 05:05:01 AM
So I'm trying this again... I never know where to post asking about this but if I WERE willing to cut my hair do you think I could pass as a boy? I want to experiment with my presentation I just don't really even know how to present male, it's really weird. :-\ and the most confusing part is I actually think i look like a boy but people don't seem to agree....
http://i.imgur.com/N3LgMue.jpg
btw joanna i don't even care about gender I just am not happy as trans.
that's a tough one you look quite female
Really? Urgh, guess I became gender blind at some point, seems like lately I always think other girls look like guys too.... :/
Yeah, best of luck, but not seeing anything other than a pretty girl.
Well unfortunately I don't know if T made me look more male... I think just more freakish, cuz I had no fat on my face, but I was still living full time as a girl at my most physically masculine. I guess my skeletal proportions are the real problem. It was too hard to look like a boy past a certain age. It just sucks not even feeling like you really have the option of being cis. And I don't even apparently know what the genders look like now. I don't understand why it had to be like this. :(
Quote from: kate on April 15, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
Are you intersex?
I wouldn't know, I mean I've been asked that a lot but I just prefer to say I didn't develop normally. All I know is my size and shape is nothing like my dad's and identical to my sister's. It's all in the legs though. His inseam is 5 inches longer than mine D:
Quote
Also i was looking at my cousin the other day and noticed that his moobs were bigger than my breasts, his hips were a little large as well. Everyone's body shape is different, but if you really wanted a guys body, working out will help a lot with that. I have a relatively small bone frame, but with adding muscle, back in the day i attained quite a strong V shape to my upper body. It can be done.
Well, I don't really want to be muscular, but my shoulders are at least a little wider than my hips when my body fat is low. I'm trying to lose back what I gained on HRT now :( Maybe it's just overall size though, I never got much experience presenting as a boy :x
Probably as a femme boy, but I don't like to think about aging at all. I am 22 and I still feel like I'm 12. Though living as a boy I would get more youth cuz I'd never look my age anyway! So there's that =o)
I'm not sure what aging would look like for me as a boy though, I'm sure I'd just try to stay pretty, if anything there's makeup for a bad skin texture, and my hair is super thick so thinning wouldn't be a problem.... And I don't think I have any balding genes at all.
Admittedly though, this issue scares me socially, because I don't exactly fit in with men and I don't know what you're supposed to do if you always look like a boy. Maybe nobody would want anything to do with me then :x
Yeah I'm sorry, I just... the word man just feels wrong, sorta like woman does too. I'm weird :-\ I just prefer to say girl/boy. D:
I'm not sure about the hairline tho, it didn't really change on HRT, but I was only 20 when I started. Actually, I hear you get your hair genes from your mom's side, and I don't really know much about her family.
You feel similar, like you are considering detransitioning/changing presentation? I think androgynous people are awesome :) I just wish there was more acceptance of that. Honestly I kinda hate gender....
You could let your eyebrows get really bushy. Get a buzz cut just like the kind a boy would get. Wear a binder if you're willing to do that. In terms of what people would see, they'd probably would guess you to be either a reallly young boy and or andronougous or even FTM. OH and another thing you could do is to change how you walk and your should posture. Keep your shoulders forward like how most guys do. Guys take up a lot of space around them where as women often take up much less space when sitting. So yeah hope this helps!!
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on April 15, 2014, 03:10:34 PM
You could let your eyebrows get really bushy. Get a buzz cut just like the kind a boy would get. Wear a binder if you're willing to do that. In terms of what people would see, they'd probably would guess you to be either a reallly young boy and or andronougous or even FTM. OH and another thing you could do is to change how you walk and your should posture. Keep your shoulders forward like how most guys do. Guys take up a lot of space around them where as women often take up much less space when sitting. So yeah hope this helps!!
I guess this highlights what is frustrating to me about gender. It's so roped into these little ideas about how and what a person has to be. I mean I know in this case a lot of it is a physical issue... still, I'm just so frustrated at being stuck in this two way street that is so restrictive on either side. I would feel sort of ridiculous changing who I am like this just to pass... when did this stuff begin to matter? I wish I could just honestly tell people, I'm a boy. Medically. I didn't get to choose. I wish I didn't have to be so... assumed about by everyone. If I tell them that then i become openly trans without even identifying as it. And if I don't tell them I'm stuck in pretending to be a cis girl.
But, thanks guys, I at least got that I won't be passing if I try to present as a boy withiut serious changes to who I am. I mean I sort of figured, but i guess my body image is out of touch with reality... D:
I don't know anymore. :(
I do think you could pass as male, though it would require making some changes that you probably wouldn't like. It sucks that gender norms are so rigid, but they are in some ways. however, if you want to look like you and live as a boy, nothing is stopping you. Sure, you will have issues "passing" and you will have to deal with some crap, but you could do it. I know plenty of andro men and hell I'm sort of living as one at the moment. It's possible. Although, I realize you are probably uncomfortable about the propsect and not blending in and having to deal with societal drama. Sorry. I wish I could help. I just want you to know it's not impossible to be you.
completely agree with learningtolive!! not impossible!
I gave some details physically since you were asking about "passiblity" but it's like how learningtolive said it's not impossible! Gotta stop caring what other people think and just be you! Erase the concept of passing if you can. Don't worry about the labels so much.
Personally labels drive me crazy. I have like 7 I could use to describe myself. Way too much of a headache when I start thinking about it. And especially if I force myself to follow each one perfectly to how society defines them. Like being fem and a lesbian. A lot of people will automatically assume I'm straight. I refuse to dress like a "lesbian" whatever that means..
A lot of this rigid conditioning society has is very flawed when it comes to gender and sexuality. Eventually it'll get better and things like passing will no longer be a big issue.
Thanks guys. :]]]
I put it behind me for now. That's what I decided. This stuff is my fantasizing and not living my real life. I gotta make more of an effort to separate reality and what is realistic from my daydreaming. :( it can be hard though.