Okay, so I'm almost 19, pre-everything, and I've (consciously) known I was a boy since I was 13-14 maybe. The problem is, I do NOT want a penis - not just because the surgery is too expensive and dangerous and doesn't even get good results - but also because I just don't like/care about it. In fact I feel REPULSED by penises (the other day I was looking up info about this and seeing photos of nude guys almost made me feel like I was going to throw up - I had to lie on my bed for a while and think about something else to try calm myself down because I honestly thought I was going to vomit and that's always scared me). I mean, I'm okay when I see my bff's male genitals (he's 11) or any other young kid's, and in those situations I wish I had the same thing and had been born in a male body, it's just the adult penises that make me sick for some reason. I'm thinking that this repulsion towards male (and female) genitals has more to do with the fact that I'm asexual and sex-repulsed (I've never masturbated, never watched porn or had sex or even kissed, ever).
Is this normal? Is it a requisite for FTM's to want penises? if so, does that mean I'm not actually FTM? That's something that personally I don't even consider, 'cause I KNOW I'm a boy and want to live as such for the rest of my life. But this issue bothers me, especially because I want to start T soon, and I've read that the clit will grow so how much will it actually grow? what if one day I look down and see a small penis and can't stand the thought of it, try to kill myself 'cause it's irreversible? on the other hand I'm willing to do and risk ANYTHING (even my fear of needles and my fear of becoming sexual due to the probable higher sex drive) in order to start T, because I just can't live with a female body forever, I'd rather die. So, any advice please?
You definitely don't need to want a penis to be a man.
It's completely normal not to want to have a penis. There are no guidelines about stuff you need to want in order to be a FTM. Like Kyler said, you don't need one to be a man.
At the moment, I'm not planning to get any SRS because of the possible complications etc but mostly because I don't feel like I need one. I'm happy with what I have.
when I first heard about transgender I was so excited. I was a preteen and thought I had finally identified what I was. But I had no desire for a penis and the only examples of transgender I had were mtf, so I decided that couldn't be me. 30+ years later I know I am transgender and still have no desire for a penis.
I hope to start T soon too and wish that the clit growing wasn't a part of it. I was just today thinking similar thoughts about, what if I can't stand it? I also don't want to have an increased sex drive so we have similar fears. I figure I'm going to talk a lot about this in therapy and talk to my doctor (first appointment is tomorrow!) and go from there.
its pretty normal, would I like a penis, yes but do I want the surgery no, to many complications to me and just don't want to go through with it lol Would I love to of been born with one, hell yeah, but I'm totally fine with using prosthetic penises, no one is really looking at your junk in public anyway and you could just get a packer, this is pretty normal, also feelings can change over time and maybe in the future surgeries will be better and stuff, but your normal, I would't stress
If I could wake up with one, I'd be happy (though VERY surprised!!) but I don't want surgery or anything at this point. I don't think there is any normal re: this sort of thing. There are 7 billion people in the world and you are one of them. There is no "not trans enough". It's perfectly okay however you are.
--Jay
As others have already said, not everyone who transitions plans on/gets surgery or even wants a penis. Transition isn't an all-or-nothing proposition, it's about what the individual needs and wants. Some people find a gender therapist helpful in processing everything. Ultimately you're the one that decides what you need, which is how it should be, because it's your body. Some information seems necessary here, though:
Quote from: Manny on April 16, 2014, 01:04:35 PM
the surgery is too expensive and dangerous and doesn't even get good results
1. There's more than one "bottom surgery" for FTMs, and price varies significantly by procedure and surgeon (some insurances may help cover costs, too). Risk factor varies by procedure too, and it's a subjective and personal matter whether the potential benefits are worth the risks.
2. It's ok to not want surgery yourself, and fine to say so. But "good results" are subjective and blanket statements like "bottom surgery for trans men has bad results" are inconsiderate of post-op individuals and people who might need/want surgery. When we discuss surgical results, we're talking about the bodies of real people. Blanket negative remarks can also discourage people with bottom dysphoria, and they may get the idea that it's not worth it to even explore their options, even though in reality they may be quite satisfied and happier with potential results.
Initially when I started reading about transition options, some of the comments out there were discouraging (not to mention disturbing). I'm not okay with my lower anatomy, so I'm researching the current surgical possibilities.
You kinda get one when you start T just without the balls the clit is basically a penis but you just don't pee out of it or ejactulate from it thats the only difference because they form from the same tissue.
Quote from: Brandon on April 16, 2014, 05:41:41 PM
You kinda get one when you start T just without the balls the clit is basically a penis but you just don't pee out of it or ejactulate from it thats the only difference because they form from the same tissue.
That's correct. It's the same tissue and position. In fact, all the parts are analogous, so I might be wrong which part here but the labia is like the scrotum.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on April 16, 2014, 05:57:33 PM
That's correct. It's the same tissue and position. In fact, all the parts are analogous, so I might be wrong which part here but the labia is like the scrotum.
--Jay
Yea your right
Quote from: aleon515 on April 16, 2014, 05:57:33 PM
That's correct. It's the same tissue and position. In fact, all the parts are analogous, so I might be wrong which part here but the labia is like the scrotum.
--Jay
Was just wondering about that earlier today. According to Wikipedia, "the labia majora is homologous to the male scrotum." IIRC surgeons use tissue there to form the scrotum in FTM lower surgeries (with or without tissue expanders and subsequent silicone implants as testicles).
RE: clitoral growth for anyone concerned about it. Growth is common, but varies by individual, and isn't guaranteed. Some guys report minimal/no growth there, some get quite a bit. For those who don't want growth there it becomes an issue of whether it's worth possibly having growth, to get the effects they do want. There's also the option of clitoral reduction surgery. For those who do want growth and don't get much, some guys try pumping and/or DHT cream applied directly.
Penis does not necessarily = Man
You are not alone, many FtMs don't want one either. Me, I would like one yes, but I don't really care much for it right now. Also, the surgery is too expensive and risky for my liking.
I wouldn't say that being repulsed by a penis and not wanting one because of that is exactly common amongst FTMs, but it's certainly not abnormal. As Jay said, "normal" isn't really applicable to us as a category of individuals because we're just that - individuals.
It's normal. Personally i don't give a flack about what's in my nether regions long as it makes me cum.
i think if i were born with a dick i would enjoy having one but the options for ftms aren't spectacular and they sound painful for something i honestly don't care much over.
I guess for me it's more a comfort thing. I don't pack because it's uncomfortable for me to be constantly adjusting things when things down there are already in need of adjusting radomly ( been on T for a while you get some downstairs growth, not a lot but enough to notice)
I used be squeamish about penises when i was younger, but i've kind of gotten desensitized to it ( thanks tumblr ) i don't really think much of a penis any more.
but as far as wanting one, eh i could use the money for something else, i'd rather get top surgery or somethin.
Thanks everyone for your answers! You definitely made me feel better about this issue. This "not trans enough" stuff always bothers me and don't get it either, but do you guys think that my not wanting a penis might be something that makes my psychiatrist (I have my first appointment in a few weeks) doubt that I'm really trans? I honestly don't know what I'd do if they refused to let me start T because I wasn't trans enough since the normal thing is for every cis and trans guy to like/want a penis. I don't even want to think about it honestly, so maybe it would be better if I said that I don't want bottom surgery because of the common reasons (money, risks, results, fear of surgery and hospitals etc.) without mentioning the other, most important reason (that i don't want it 'cause it repulses me)? Should I lie? Should I go ahead and risk not getting T? Or do you think that whether the psych knows or not, that it doesn't matter 'cause I'll be able to transition anyway?
Blink, I wasn't trying to discourage or offend anyone (sorry if it came out that way) but, from what I've read, neither bottom surgery gets good results. Doesn't mean it gets BAD results but not good either, that's like objectively speaking. It's not just about opinions, you may like the results or you may not but it is what it is. Besides, the risks ARE high, I've heard that some guys nearly died due to this surgery, so it's not about opinions either, it's FACT. Personally I'd never go through this surgery, even if I wanted a penis, but of course people can do whatever they want XD. I'm sure that maybe in 10 or 15 years time it will have improved a lot though, as medical and technological advances become better really fast.
What you tell the psychiatrist is up to you, but if these visits are anything other than a means to an end (t letter, vs. also want therapy or help figuring out where you stand on some things), it's not much use to see someone you can't trust with your real thoughts. Some people have to see more than one psychiatrist before finding one they "work with". There are also doctors/clinics who prescribe T on an informed consent basis (no therapy letter required). Might be worth checking what's in your area, or within reasonable travel distance, in case this psychiatrist isn't able to provide you with what you're looking for.
It didn't seem like you were trying to discourage or offend. It does seem you've heard some blanket subjective statements about surgical results and have repeated it as if it were a fact.
Quote from: Manny on April 17, 2014, 07:20:01 AM
from what I've read, neither bottom surgery gets good results. Doesn't mean it gets BAD results but not good either, that's like objectively speaking.
"Neither bottom surgery gets good results" - that's a subjective opinion dependent on one's concept of "good result", not an objective fact. Aside from clearly bad complications from a surgery meant to improve quality of life, e.g., death, loss of penis due to necrosis, good/not good/bad results are subjective. There are men happy with their results from metoidioplasty, and men happy with phalloplasty results. If someone else looks at a post-op photo or reads a description from a satisfied patient and doesn't want something similar for themselves, that's their choice, but that doesn't make it not a good result. It was a good result for the patient, and it could be a good result for other patients.
I'd also like to point out that although "some guys nearly died due to [unspecified] surgery", there's no statistical information there, so it's impossible to realistically assess risk from that. Context is necessary to make informed choices about surgery (or anything). Some people make choices based on unrealistic anxieties, or just spend too much time worrying (been there, it sucks). It's like folks who worry about a shark killing them while they're on vacation, but they're more likely to die while driving to the grocery store.
Good luck with your psychiatrist visit and getting on T.
I know quite a few people who have had different bottom surgeries and are happy with the results. I don't think it would be correct (anymore) to say the results aren't good. I think this is a myth, perhaps based on past results. YMMV.
--Jay
Quote from: Manny on April 17, 2014, 07:20:01 AM
Thanks everyone for your answers! You definitely made me feel better about this issue. This "not trans enough" stuff always bothers me and don't get it either, but do you guys think that my not wanting a penis might be something that makes my psychiatrist (I have my first appointment in a few weeks) doubt that I'm really trans? I honestly don't know what I'd do if they refused to let me start T because I wasn't trans enough since the normal thing is for every cis and trans guy to like/want a penis. I don't even want to think about it honestly, so maybe it would be better if I said that I don't want bottom surgery because of the common reasons (money, risks, results, fear of surgery and hospitals etc.) without mentioning the other, most important reason (that i don't want it 'cause it repulses me)? Should I lie? Should I go ahead and risk not getting T? Or do you think that whether the psych knows or not, that it doesn't matter 'cause I'll be able to transition anyway?
Blink, I wasn't trying to discourage or offend anyone (sorry if it came out that way) but, from what I've read, neither bottom surgery gets good results. Doesn't mean it gets BAD results but not good either, that's like objectively speaking. It's not just about opinions, you may like the results or you may not but it is what it is. Besides, the risks ARE high, I've heard that some guys nearly died due to this surgery, so it's not about opinions either, it's FACT. Personally I'd never go through this surgery, even if I wanted a penis, but of course people can do whatever they want XD. I'm sure that maybe in 10 or 15 years time it will have improved a lot though, as medical and technological advances become better really fast.
If you chose a psychiatrist who is a member of WPATH (or follows the WPATH Standards of Care), he should see someone with gender dysphoria who needs T. Whether or not that individual in front of him wants a penis or not should not matter.
The newest SOC states that not all trans* people need the same treatment (hormones, top surgery, and bottom surgery), and the differences does not make them more or less trans, or in less need of treatment. WE dictate what WE need in order to no longer have gender dysphoria. We define it. WPATH gets this. A good reason to choose a WPATH therapist.
www.wpath.org
As Brett said, finding a therapist/psych who is at least familiar with the new standards will be beneficial. I won't beat around the bush and tell you that you'll have no problem getting on T if you tell them you are "repulsed" by penises - some may think nothing of it, but there are some pretty old-school psychs out there who may look at you sideways. Just do your research and find someone worthwhile.
I would suggest lying either. I think that any psych worth their weight will be able to spot it.
I'm not even going to go into the bottom surgery comments - I'm sure you didn't mean offense, but you're missing the picture.
Thanks again guys for your answers! I didn't know I was going to get so much help! My psychiatrist visits are in fact going to be just a means to an end, 'cause I don't need nor want therapy and besides I've had bad experiences in that regard. The therapist I went to a few years ago for other reasons was a bitch, even when it comes to my gender dysphoria; when she figured out that my "wanting" to be a boy was the reason why I dressed like a boy and why I was trying to lose weight and everything, she just said (paraphrasing), "well we need to accept ourselves, the things we don't like about our bodies". And she then put herself as an example, saying that she didn't like her being short either or didn't like her nose but that she had to deal with it. Can you believe it? she was basically telling me to suck it up, I was born a girl and should just accept it, and not only that, but after that she went ahead and asked me if I liked women (like if that had to do with anything?!) and when I tried to tell her that I was in fact asexual she wouldn't believe me.
So definitely not going back to therapy - although sometimes I do wish I could talk to someone about myself. I just want my gender dysphoria diagnosis and my T letter, and if I have to lie to get it maybe I should (though I wish I didn't have to). Especially because I live in Spain and here people don't have great knowledge of gender issues (most people don't even know that there are non-binary genders lol). Don't get me wrong, it's a very open-minded country when it comes to LGB people, just not with regard to gender, and getting a T prescription usually takes months so I'll see how my first few appointments go and if I feel like it's a waste of time then maybe I should start the transition process privately (and find a WPATH therapist maybe if there are any?) once I'm in the UK. But this is something to worry about later on, I can't decide yet.
I understand what you guys are saying re: bottom surgery, but I don't think you understand /me/. What I'm trying to say is, whether people are happy about the results or not has nothing to do with the objective fact that the results aren't very good (or at least weren't last time I researched about it - early 2013 IIRC but can't get much better in a year can it). For example, you want to paint your home walls in white, but you end up getting it grey, so some people might say "well it's really close to white, I love it!" and others might say "I wanted white and this is what I get?! wtf?", but however you feel about it, it still won't make it white. That's all I'm saying, wasn't trying to discourage anyone or argue the fact that some guys are happy with the results, and as I said, it will probably get much better in the not so distant future.
Yeah, it's normal. I don't really have dysphoria about my genitals unless with regards to something sexual, but even then, I just avoid what would make me feel bad so it's OK. I don't know if I don't want a penis because I've never had one before so I can't imagine it at all, or if I just genuinely don't want one. But I wouldn't want surgery except top surgery, so it's alright. Either way, you're absolutely not alone :)
Wow, Manny. That is a bad experience, that therapist obviously wasn't familiar with gender dysphoria or she would know it's not remotely comparable to being unhappy with one's nose. No wonder you don't want to talk to another therapist.
Tell me if I understand what you're saying now. Are you saying you don't think the results are "good" because it's not exactly the same as being born with the male reproductive system? The thing about surgery is, results have to be evaluated with "reasonable expectations" in mind, that is, within the bounds of what is currently possible. If it weren't currently technologically possible to produce white paint, getting a very light grey paint would be a good result.
There is some very promising research going on for more advanced options, though, such as 3-D printing of organs. It would be amazing if they can someday print not only the correct genitalia but also, testicles for FTMs and ovaries for MTFs. We wouldn't need external sources of hormones anymore. It'd probably be very expensive, especially at first, but it would be an awesome option.
I'm not going to get into bottom surgery because it's just a touchy subject. People don't want to be told that their penis isn't good enough, whether they're trans or cis. I completely understand that you don't want therapy, I've had some pretty harmful experiences myself, but it might be worth talking to someone about how you'll feel with the growth that T might give you. You can't pick and change the effects.
Quote from: Manny on April 18, 2014, 06:24:34 AM
So definitely not going back to therapy - although sometimes I do wish I could talk to someone about myself. I just want my gender dysphoria diagnosis and my T letter, and if I have to lie to get it maybe I should (though I wish I didn't have to). Especially because I live in Spain and here people don't have great knowledge of gender issues (most people don't even know that there are non-binary genders lol). Don't get me wrong, it's a very open-minded country when it comes to LGB people, just not with regard to gender, and getting a T prescription usually takes months so I'll see how my first few appointments go and if I feel like it's a waste of time then maybe I should start the transition process privately (and find a WPATH therapist maybe if there are any?) once I'm in the UK. But this is something to worry about later on, I can't decide yet.
If you're considering going private in the UK then you might need to start saving now. It's around £200-250 for the first appointments and then around £100 after that. I don't know what your situation is with getting NHS prescriptions but if you're not eligible for them you'll be paying out for T itself too.
I don't think you need to feel like you want a penis to be legitimately FTM, but I do think that you're opinions on the matter may change with time. I was of the same opinion when I was pre-everything. I didn't want any bottom op at all.... but if you give a moose a muffin......
Now I'm post-top and on T for almost 6 years... all I can think about is how much I want bottom surgery.