What was your experience like growing up perceived as a male? How do you feel that affected you? And how has that affected/will that affect your experience as a trans woman? What do you think can be done to draw attention to how sexism hurts both genders? Let's have a thread where everyone can talk about their socialization and what you're struggling with. (:
I'll post my experience too I just don't want to for the first post because I don't know how well it would represent what everyone else went through too (because it was strongly affected by mental illness and abuse.)
It just felt wrong. I didn't fit in with guys very well when I was a kid, and most of my friends at an early age were girls. Boys liked to pummel me on a regular basis because I was weird, vulnerable, effeminate and lacked the ability or willingness to fight back. I probably got beaten up every other day in junior high school. I tried so hard to fit in to the point of pathetic overcompensation.
When I started high school, during the first day, first period I punched the first bully right in the face in front of everyone when the teacher turned away. The bullying stopped, but I still had no real friends. There were people who would put up with me and hang out once in awhile and people who weren't overtly hostile, but that was about it until I turned into one of the misfit metalhead stoners. They were the first guy friends I really had or fit in with. I learned to fake dudeliness pretty well after that and it eventually became second nature. I basically turned into a douchebag and partied waay too much. I got girlfriends pretty easily and convinced myself I was "normal".
When I couldn't take it anymore, it turned out that being a girl was actually easier than being a fake guy. It was natural. I had to peel back a lot of layers of self deceit and defense mechanisms, but at the core was a sad girl who never got to shine. I always knew on some level that she was there, and she is the real me. Because of this I was never a misogynist and hated the whole "bros before hos" mentality.
Quote from: Jill F on April 17, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
It just felt wrong. I didn't fit in with guys very well when I was a kid, and most of my friends at an early age were girls. Boys liked to pummel me on a regular basis because I was weird, vulnerable, effeminate and lacked the ability or willingness to fight back. I probably got beaten up every other day in junior high school. I tried so hard to fit in to the point of pathetic overcompensation.
When I started high school, during the first day, first period I punched the first bully right in the face in front of everyone when the teacher turned away. The bullying stopped, but I still had no real friends. There were people who would put up with me and hang out once in awhile and people who weren't overtly hostile, but that was about it until I turned into one of the misfit metalhead stoners. They were the first guy friends I really had or fit in with. I learned to fake dudeliness pretty well after that and it eventually became second nature. I basically turned into a douchebag and partied waay too much. I got girlfriends pretty easily and convinced myself I was "normal".
When I couldn't take it anymore, it turned out that being a girl was actually easier than being a fake guy. It was natural. I had to peel back a lot of layers of self deceit and defense mechanisms, but at the core was a sad girl who never got to shine. I always knew on some level that she was there, and she is the real me. Because of this I was never a misogynist and hated the whole "bros before hos" mentality.
Thanks Jill. It does seem like middle/high school is where the issues get pretty intense. And I think that so many trans women here have been bullied or beaten for who they were is just horrible. The acceptability of violence just seems so sick.... Especially when it's basically between children.
I guess it's a sort of weird topic to me because I actually missed middle and high school. I wasn't bullied per se, but for me, my body image just crashed when I gained some weight in elementary school. I coped thru emotional eating which I learned from my mom. And my dad was incredibly abusive about my weight and my body. I don't even know if he meant to be, but he was. He would ask me my weight in public, he would WEIGH me in public, he would tell his parents about my weight. He had started doing this before I was even overweight. I was 9 years old and 64 lbs. Not sure what was wrong with him because looking it up now that is average. But I remember the exact number cuz it was a massive trigger for me. But the emotional eating got really bad after I suffered repeated sexual abuse when I was 10. I started gaining so much weight. He would force me to go to the gym with him and make me just feel disgusting. I remember one time he basically took me there, told me to get on the scale, and I did. My weight was really high, and he made some terrible comment about it, I can't remember, but I just broke down crying and ran out of there. Ran out to the car and just cried my soul out. Maybe it sounds mild to people, but this had been going on for so long, it had just ruined what little sense of self worth I had. It was basically traumatic every time. I became so hyper sensitive about my weight and my appearance and so uncomfortable in myself. I skipped school and became sort of a black sheep to all my teachers because I was missing so much they could hold me back for it. And other kids gossiped about it but didn't usually confront me at least.
Of course as soon as I lost the weight, my dad and family just had other problems with how I looked. My grandparents started telling me I was too small and needed to gain weight every time I saw them. God, you can't win. And there was constant harassment to get my hair cut. He would make fun of me and say my hair was longer than my sister's (he thought it was an insult?) and she would judge me over it too. People my age would make fun of me looking like a girl, but I really didn't care as long as I wasn't fat. And otherwise I would be the butt of short jokes, though fortunately I didn't feel self-conscious about that either.
But yeah, after elementary school, I just stopped going. My parents had to homeschool me or they were going to get in legal trouble. And I was basically totally isolated from there until a year of college. Then I transitioned. It's kinda crazy. I could write a million things of what being isolated for all those years did to me, but yeah, it's not especially relevant to this thread.... except that I always wonder if my parents would have let that happen to a daughter. To just be aimless and isolated for her entire adolescence. Because my sister was the golden child, and I don't know if that was about gender, but it hurt. My mom told me once that I was just running away from my problems, but she didn't try to help me. All I ever got was blame and rolling eyes when I desperately needed somebody to help and nobody cared.
So it's interesting to read what high school was like for people. I was only in middle school for a little while but I can see how it would get really hard around then. I would hang out with the kind of weird/alternative kids but I did get along with most people, it was only brief though.
Beyond then until college, my only real socialization was one-time encounters with people, so it was always interesting how they would react to me.. sometimes I passed, sometimes I didn't, usually people thought I was just 12 or 13, cuz I had stopped growing at that age. I ended up watching the people I went to elementary school with become basically adults around me and I still didn't feel like I could pass for a high school student. It was intimidating and weird. I was 20 and realized they all seemed so much more grown up than me. I think emotionally I was stuck as a preteen.
There were some specifically gendered experiences that stuck with me though. When I was 19 I saw a therapist for anxiety and basically what I got was an hour of gender harassment every other week. It was so not relevant to my issues. This woman was totally inappropriate and I shouldn't have given her even the full first session but I had serious boundary-setting issues. She reduced all my serious problems to basically not being male enough. I think the first thing she asked me was my sexuality. When I said I wasn't interested in sex, she consulted a psychiatrist and came back and said he agreed that I must be lying. She was really pushy about it. But do you look at porn? You don't think anything when you see attractive girls? Then she turned to my body. Gain some muscle? Are you eating enough? Why do you have long hair? I'll refer you to my stylist so you can get it cut. So... do you grow facial hair? Can I see you turn around? Can you point out your cheekbones? She claimed that she was having to baby me. It just felt like I was never being seen for me. Just as "potential future man--too old to be a boy--not a human yet." Of course I had never mentioned planning to transition to her. Anyway, I terminated then. I guess potential future men don't need real help or empathy.
I get the feeling that it would have been like that from a lot of people. I just think those attitudes are so hurtful and guys need emotional support and empathy just like girls do. Sorry if I don't have much on topic to share, I was hoping more people would chime in. D:
My childhood was socially a nightmare. And that remained for a long time. It took me an extraordinarily long time to learn to fake it. And of course, doing do made me feel dead inside. Yuck.
In school, I just didn't fit in with boys. I was probably the most picked on and hated kid in my class in primary school. And teachers kept separating me from girls, who I got along with well. I remember being well aware that my behavior wasn't that of a boy. Nothing was. Not the way I spoke, walked, etc etc. I consciously started working on changing those behaviors to be more male. While I was minorly successful in doing that, it was too late, and my reputation preceded me at every turn.
High school changed though. There was so many more people, and there were a number of other social misfits who I fell in with. Some were just gay, some had other personal issues, and some were just rebels. Nobody would pick on us collectively. Of course when alone or between classes, I was punched, kicked, spat on. You name it... And going through puberty at the same time... I had such an unending amount of hate for everything, me included. Everything and everyone around me suffered. I just about fell into a life of drugs and worse. Not proud days.
It still took another 5 or so years after that to learn to fake it to the point where I could fit in perfectly. If I wanted to... which wasn't often. I was deeply depressed and didn't want to be involved in life at all. So I scraped by with the bare minimum in every single aspect. Much of those years are a blur of alcohol and depression. I was such a mess, and I'm amazed that I lived through it. I just didn't want to exist.
Another few years after that, I grew big. All from my very unhealthy lifestyle. I had the size to be intimidating, but not the personality. But through yet more horrors or working nightshift, I become a horror too. I became a jerk and didn't think twice about the way I treated people. And nobody would mess with me. I looked angry, and big enough to look after myself. One day I even stood up to three guys who were just being jerks. They backed down too. Everyone did. This new found strength ( even if fake ) was intoxicating in a way. I was the alpha. And the constant anger I felt inside was being released with my behavior. Yet another collage of years that I'm not proud of and would sooner forget. And that was the peak of my male socialisation. Horrible years.
That behavior did soften over the years, through necessity. That behavior didn't work well in the workplace... Even though it softened somewhat, I was still angry. And I remained that way up until I started dealing with my trans issues and started transitioning.
And my god, when I started to transition, that learned behavior fell off me in such huge chunks. People everywhere were commenting how I seemed happier and more relaxed. And it was true. The anger that fueled all of that behavior was disappearing. I didn't even have to learn those female behaviors. They were always there, they always came naturally. My own mother said to me recently, "There's nothing male about you. The way you walk and behave... you're just natural". Makes me sad that I waited so long to be me. :(
Quote from: Jill F on April 17, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
It just felt wrong. I didn't fit in with guys very well when I was a kid, and most of my friends at an early age were girls. Boys liked to pummel me on a regular basis because I was weird, vulnerable, effeminate and lacked the ability or willingness to fight back. I probably got beaten up every other day in junior high school. I tried so hard to fit in to the point of pathetic overcompensation.
When I couldn't take it anymore, it turned out that being a girl was actually easier than being a fake guy. It was natural. I had to peel back a lot of layers of self deceit and defense mechanisms, but at the core was a sad girl who never got to shine. I always knew on some level that she was there, and she is the real me. Because of this I was never a misogynist and hated the whole "bros before hos" mentality.
Signed Jessica Merriman! :)
Jill are you sure we are not clones of each other? :D
I won't post my story because it's similar to Jill and SammyRose.
But, what I find 'amazing' is that most stories, read on other sites too, are so similar...
The recurrent points like being bullied, outcasted, try to hide our feeling, trying to walk in shoes that aren't ours, sometimes drugs too.
Sonia
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 09:12:57 PM
Signed Jessica Merriman! :)
Jill are you sure we are not clones of each other? :D
Oh, that's it! I am so going blond next time around. :D
Quote from: BeingSonia on April 17, 2014, 10:11:15 PM
I won't post my story because it's similar to Jill and SammyRose.
But, what I find 'amazing' is that most stories, read on other sites too, are so similar...
The recurrent points like being bullied, outcasted, try to hide our feeling, trying to walk in shoes that aren't ours, sometimes drugs too.
Par for the course perhaps :(
I'm probably just stating the obvious, but from all the people I know, and the stories I've read, it was the ones who hid their real selves well who did better in society as their birth gender.
TL;DR
My social upbringing was pretty much androgynous until college, then male dorms happened. And I need to work on writing shorter forum posts.
Before middle school I wasn't really raised as male, just whatever I felt like doing, which in retrospect is probably part of the reason it took me so long to begin to question my gender.
Middle school (and even before) I had a few bullies because I was smart and small. My fifth grade teacher told me I should feel sorry for them because they are jealous and know they would never make it as far in life as I would. With that mindset I was bullied less because I didn't react the way they wanted.
In 7th grade I learned to scare away the bullies by going bug eyed (my eyes were huge because of the pressure from my glaucoma) some of then even decided to protect me from other bullies after that....
During those middle school years I never had more than 3 male "friends". The kids that I would invite to my house to play video games with. The only reason I kept them was because I was told I needed friends.
In school and among the neighbors I always preferred to socialize with girls.
8th grade and beyond was all amazing private school. No judgement, no bullying. Very lgbt friendly school (I think three kids transitioned or started transition there in the past 5 years (my sister just graduated so I hear the news from her)
I made friends with guys and girls there, but the guys were more of a facade. I would always prefer to hang out with the girls when possibly.
I took theater and art and music along with physics math and comp sci, so my education didn't socialize Mr by gender much. The locker rooms there weren't really gender specific... The girls lockeroom was the loud room and the guys locker room was the quiet room. At least during theater stuff and after classes were over.
My engineering college is where I really had the most male socialization. The school was about 80% male. I always preferred when suite mates would have a girlfriend living in the dorm with us because it made me feel more comfortable. I think the girlfriends would also lower the raging testosterone of the guys in the suite because they had to be respectful...
I still hung out primarily with women in college. Or at least in a group with women in it. But loving 24/7 with college guys forced me to pick up a lot of male mannerisms and social skills.
I just wish I had known about hormones earlier in college because I would have transitioned then if i had known about them.
I grew up in private schools, where bullying wasn't quite the issue it is in other schools. And I haven't had the same trouble with socializing as a guy as most trans girls have, but it still never really feels like I'm fully accepted. In a group I can blend in, but the one on one interaction isn't quite there.
I learned early on to push my feelings down and try hard not to be feminine. I wanted to be around the girls, but knew what the effect would be. I still deal with this in guy mode. I'd love to compliment a co-worker or friend on her cute outfit/hair/earrings, but I know it would be weird for a guy to even notice those things. Yesterday one of the admin assistants came into my office and she was wearing the cutest polka dot pants, but I had to pretend I didn't notice. So there's the constant pressure of performing the male role...I can't wait to be free of that.
And after writing that paragraph I can't help but point out that guys aren't even supposed to use the word cute...unless referring to a puppy or a baby.
So much of socializing as a guy is about ripping on your friends. It's funny. I will miss that. Guys are better behaved around women. Another thing I will miss after transition is playing poker with the guys and smoking cigars. I'll probably still enjoy cigars, but won't be in their club anymore. But on the bright side, I'll be part of the club I've wanted to be in my whole life.
Teased constantly. Called names constantly. Called "gay" constantly, called a "->-bleeped-<-got" even on a few occasions. Laughed at when I cried, and told to grow up or "man up." Not allowed to express my side that longed to squee at cute things and do things that were pretty. I was told by my own therapist and my own parents that the only way to make the bullying stop was to basically fight back. To become just as uncaring and cold-hearted as them.
Had to watch in agony as my stupid peers constantly objectified women, rated them on scales of "hotness," compared their girlfriends' asses to each-other as if they were freaking trophies to be won, dumped girls for no reason and left them crying and hurting and hating themselves. Hating myself, and hating my gender assignment, for being lumped in together with those stupid uncaring a**holes. Constantly listening to stories of all of the girls they've screwed, constantly listening to stories of their drunken escapades and all of the stupid crap they've done as some sort of proof of their masculinity.
Teased for wearing short shorts. Teased for singing soprano in choir up until age 15. Teased for crossing my legs. Teased for standing with my hands on my hips. Teased for being a "teacher's pet" because I enjoyed talking to the teachers so much.
The message that I constantly got as a young boy was "beat other people up, sing songs about blowing things up, don't give a crap about anyone's feelings, treat women like crap, don't show any emotion whatsoever otherwise you're a "pussy," not having a penis would be the worst thing possible in the world and you'd better rather be dead than be a girl, do a bunch of stupid s*** to prove how reckless and manly you are, and again, don't you dare show any behavior that might be considered feminine, or you're gay, and being gay is the worst thing in the world."
I hate middle school guys. Seriously. I still do. Those first few years of puberty, they seriously contract brain damage. They do stupid s***, they don't care about anyone, and their entire life becomes about proving how manly they are and proving that they're not gay. And for someone like me who got more effeminate as a middle-schooler instead of more masculine, my only options were either to be myself and get beat up and teased and treated like dirt, fight back and hurt them just like they'd hurt me in order to gain respect, or stifle myself and sacrifice my very sense of self, the very things that make me who I am, and show no emotion, no difference, no connection to the world, just to keep people from picking on me.
I chose the later. It was easier. I nearly destroyed my academic career because I spent every hour of every day hating being a guy, wishing I could be free from this masculine prison and just be myself, but feeling trapped because I had no option but hide or face torment. And I'd wish I could cry. But over time, I forgot how. I couldn't even cry at my own grandparents' funerals. And I felt completely awful, and completely empty. An emotional being trapped in an existence that constantly forced me to "man up" and to not be hurt by all of the things that were hurting me.
Wishing that I could have friends to talk to... wishing that I could just have a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent all of my feelings to. But none of my male friends ever wanted to talk. Because they were constantly caught up in their own little worlds, only interested in playing games all the time, only interested in superficial interests that we had in common. There was never an emotional connection. And once we stopped both liking those same games, we had nothing to talk about anymore. And every girl assuming that all I wanted was sex, even though all I wanted was a best female friend that I could talk to again, like I'd had as a kid.
Lost... lonely... friendless despite being surrounded by friends... stifled... emotionless.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 11:26:36 PM
Teased constantly. Called names constantly. Called "gay" constantly, called a "->-bleeped-<-got" even on a few occasions. Laughed at when I cried, and told to grow up or "man up." Not allowed to express my side that longed to squee at cute things and do things that were pretty. I was told by my own therapist and my own parents that the only way to make the bullying stop was to basically fight back. To become just as uncaring and cold-hearted as them.
Had to watch in agony as my stupid peers constantly objectified women, rated them on scales of "hotness," compared their girlfriends' asses to each-other as if they were freaking trophies to be won, dumped girls for no reason and left them crying and hurting and hating themselves. Hating myself, and hating my gender assignment, for being lumped in together with those stupid uncaring a**holes. Constantly listening to stories of all of the girls they've screwed, constantly listening to stories of their drunken escapades and all of the stupid crap they've done as some sort of proof of their masculinity.
Teased for wearing short shorts. Teased for singing soprano in choir up until age 15. Teased for crossing my legs. Teased for standing with my hands on my hips. Teased for being a "teacher's pet" because I enjoyed talking to the teachers so much.
The message that I constantly got as a young boy was "beat other people up, sing songs about blowing things up, don't give a crap about anyone's feelings, treat women like crap, don't show any emotion whatsoever otherwise you're a "pussy," not having a penis would be the worst thing possible in the world and you'd better rather be dead than be a girl, do a bunch of stupid s*** to prove how reckless and manly you are, and again, don't you dare show any behavior that might be considered feminine, or you're gay, and being gay is the worst thing in the world."
I hate middle school guys. Seriously. I still do. Those first few years of puberty, they seriously contract brain damage. They do stupid s***, they don't care about anyone, and their entire life becomes about proving how manly they are and proving that they're not gay. And for someone like me who got more effeminate as a middle-schooler instead of more masculine, my only options were either to be myself and get beat up and teased and treated like dirt, fight back and hurt them just like they'd hurt me in order to gain respect, or stifle myself and sacrifice my very sense of self, the very things that make me who I am, and show no emotion, no difference, no connection to the world, just to keep people from picking on me.
I chose the later. It was easier. I nearly destroyed my academic career because I spent every hour of every day hating being a guy, wishing I could be free from this masculine prison and just be myself, but feeling trapped because I had no option but hide or face torment. And I'd wish I could cry. But over time, I forgot how. I couldn't even cry at my own grandparents' funerals. And I felt completely awful, and completely empty. An emotional being trapped in an existence that constantly forced me to "man up" and to not be hurt by all of the things that were hurting me.
Wishing that I could have friends to talk to... wishing that I could just have a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent all of my feelings to. But none of my male friends ever wanted to talk. Because they were constantly caught up in their own little worlds, only interested in playing games all the time, only interested in superficial interests that we had in common. There was never an emotional connection. And once we stopped both liking those same games, we had nothing to talk about anymore. And every girl assuming that all I wanted was sex, even though all I wanted was a best female friend that I could talk to again, like I'd had as a kid.
Lost... lonely... friendless despite being surrounded by friends... stifled... emotionless.
Yup 95% of that was me too. Just not as severe.
By about three years ago (a year before I started to consider I was trans) I would publicly admit to people I knew that I hated the entire male population (including myself)
I think that hatred is beginning to fade now that I have come to terms with myself. But it shows how male socialized I was that I even couldn't stand myself.
Quote from: katiej on April 17, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
So much of socializing as a guy is about ripping on your friends. It's funny. I will miss that. Guys are better behaved around women. Another thing I will miss after transition is playing poker with the guys and smoking cigars. I'll probably still enjoy cigars, but won't be in their club anymore. But on the bright side, I'll be part of the club I've wanted to be in my whole life.
Hmm, yeah, I never really understood why guys do this. I always take it too seriously and get hurt when my bf takes shots at me. But at least when it's flirty I can sort of get it. As a boy it would just feel hurtful...
Quote from: katiej on April 17, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
I grew up in private schools, where bullying wasn't quite the issue it is in other schools. And I haven't had the same trouble with socializing as a guy as most trans girls have, but it still never really feels like I'm fully accepted. In a group I can blend in, but the one on one interaction isn't quite there.
I learned early on to push my feelings down and try hard not to be feminine. I wanted to be around the girls, but knew what the effect would be. I still deal with this in guy mode. I'd love to compliment a co-worker or friend on her cute outfit/hair/earrings, but I know it would be weird for a guy to even notice those things. Yesterday one of the admin assistants came into my office and she was wearing the cutest polka dot pants, but I had to pretend I didn't notice. So there's the constant pressure of performing the male role...I can't wait to be free of that.
Awww.. maybe it's not easy but, I wouldn't really worry about this. Girls are probably more open minded than you think. You know how girls dress for other girls because guys can't appreciate it anyway? Well, I think guys feel like they have to look cool to other guys, and i'm sure that's because of socialization. Girls don't usually care about this unless he's on the radar. i mean, you still have to get along and be friendable, but my experience as a boy has always been that other girls think it's really cool to meet a guy they have a lot in common with. I'd love to meet a guy friend like that too it just hasn't happened as of yet. Maybe being openly gay makes it easier though... not sure. I mean I know I would feel a little more relaxed knowing he was gay since there's no worry of hidden sexual attraction.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 11:26:36 PM
Teased constantly. Called names constantly. Called "gay" constantly, called a "->-bleeped-<-got" even on a few occasions. Laughed at when I cried, and told to grow up or "man up." Not allowed to express my side that longed to squee at cute things and do things that were pretty. I was told by my own therapist and my own parents that the only way to make the bullying stop was to basically fight back. To become just as uncaring and cold-hearted as them.
Had to watch in agony as my stupid peers constantly objectified women, rated them on scales of "hotness," compared their girlfriends' asses to each-other as if they were freaking trophies to be won, dumped girls for no reason and left them crying and hurting and hating themselves. Hating myself, and hating my gender assignment, for being lumped in together with those stupid uncaring a**holes. Constantly listening to stories of all of the girls they've screwed, constantly listening to stories of their drunken escapades and all of the stupid crap they've done as some sort of proof of their masculinity.
Teased for wearing short shorts. Teased for singing soprano in choir up until age 15. Teased for crossing my legs. Teased for standing with my hands on my hips. Teased for being a "teacher's pet" because I enjoyed talking to the teachers so much.
The message that I constantly got as a young boy was "beat other people up, sing songs about blowing things up, don't give a crap about anyone's feelings, treat women like crap, don't show any emotion whatsoever otherwise you're a "pussy," not having a penis would be the worst thing possible in the world and you'd better rather be dead than be a girl, do a bunch of stupid s*** to prove how reckless and manly you are, and again, don't you dare show any behavior that might be considered feminine, or you're gay, and being gay is the worst thing in the world."
I hate middle school guys. Seriously. I still do. Those first few years of puberty, they seriously contract brain damage. They do stupid s***, they don't care about anyone, and their entire life becomes about proving how manly they are and proving that they're not gay. And for someone like me who got more effeminate as a middle-schooler instead of more masculine, my only options were either to be myself and get beat up and teased and treated like dirt, fight back and hurt them just like they'd hurt me in order to gain respect, or stifle myself and sacrifice my very sense of self, the very things that make me who I am, and show no emotion, no difference, no connection to the world, just to keep people from picking on me.
I chose the later. It was easier. I nearly destroyed my academic career because I spent every hour of every day hating being a guy, wishing I could be free from this masculine prison and just be myself, but feeling trapped because I had no option but hide or face torment. And I'd wish I could cry. But over time, I forgot how. I couldn't even cry at my own grandparents' funerals. And I felt completely awful, and completely empty. An emotional being trapped in an existence that constantly forced me to "man up" and to not be hurt by all of the things that were hurting me.
Wishing that I could have friends to talk to... wishing that I could just have a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent all of my feelings to. But none of my male friends ever wanted to talk. Because they were constantly caught up in their own little worlds, only interested in playing games all the time, only interested in superficial interests that we had in common. There was never an emotional connection. And once we stopped both liking those same games, we had nothing to talk about anymore. And every girl assuming that all I wanted was sex, even though all I wanted was a best female friend that I could talk to again, like I'd had as a kid.
Lost... lonely... friendless despite being surrounded by friends... stifled... emotionless.
Thanks for sharing Carrie. :)
Again your post makes me wonder about the female friend thing. I wonder if sexuality is the reason some of yall found it hard to have female friends. I guess guys are stereotyped if they are straight, or really just if they are assumed to be, and it's not always fair to them. Since to be fair, guys are demonized over their sexuality and assigned a predatory status. And i feel bad, because even I'm guilty of this. When a guy is obviously gay I feel immediately more comfortable than if he might be or is straight. I'm not sure how to fix that.
I do remember when i was flying across the country basically the day before I transitioned, (cuz I didn't feel safe transitioning while living with family) I had to wear male clothes (though pretty preppy) still since my family was sending me off and my sister was driving me to the airport. I did pass as male at the airport and I felt like the girl who sat next to me was giving off weird vibes. I said hi and stuff but she didn't seem to want to talk, or like, wanted not to. I get uncomfortable when someone else seems uncomfortable so it was like, oh god, is she seriously getting weird ideas about me? It always sorta pissed me off if girls assumed off the bat I was attracted to them, i don't know, though i understand it since I live it too , I know what /most/ guys are thinking. Anyway i think it was a 5 hour flight and we didn't talk at all. Though to be fair it was a night flight and we both slept a lot of the way.
Anyway it's just funny to think people would have projected that onto me cuz I went and changed a few hours later and never passed as a boy again and ofc it never happened again. One thing i didn't really like about living as a boy is having to wonder whether other girls got weird ideas about me before they knew me. It just felt weird.
Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 12:21:21 AM
Again your post makes me wonder about the female friend thing. I wonder if sexuality is the reason some of yall found it hard to have female friends.
I said hi and stuff but she didn't seem to want to talk, or like, wanted not to. I get uncomfortable when someone else seems uncomfortable so it was like, oh god, is she seriously getting weird ideas about me? It always sorta pissed me off if girls assumed off the bat I was attracted to them,
I always felt like this too. That's why I would only ever try to be friends with women who knew that I knew they were in serious relationship and thus could understand that I wanted to be friends and not partners.
For me I was aggressive and driven. I observed, copied and emulated the strongest males. I felt lonely but was in fact quite popular. I felt quite isolated. I really didn't understand girls and in early puberty became painfully shy and awkward in their company. In hindsight I suspect that I was terrified that someone would see through my act and find out that I wasn't normal, that I wasn't being true to myself and that I was somehow defective. I chose the most physical sports and tried to present as the most alpha male that I could. I was pretty good at it. I joined the military, played football, excelled at most sports, dressed conservatively, drove fast, partied hard and whenever the dysphoria raised its head I worked twice as hard to distract myself. This worked for a very long time.
For me the above was my norm. I thought that all males felt the same and that my way of being was normal. People commented that I didn't seem to fully engage, that I seemed to observe rather than to immerse myself in relationships and conversation. I was good at intellectual argument but found it difficult to express myself emotionally. Funnily enough I was fine with girl friends' mothers but often clumsy and forced with their daughter. I copied all the moves but dating and conversation didn't come naturally or easily.
Many, many years later (post tg diagnosis and low dose hrt) I am a very different person. Relaxed, empathetic and much closer to women than to men I identify with women rather than men and I am the happiest that I have ever been.
My childhood growing up sucked as far as socialization went. I was kind of internally homophobic at the time so I pretty much hated everything about myself as well. I had no friends for the most part and when I did make male friends I did not treat them like friends, but more like guys who I wanted to be my boyfriends. I got a long with girls, but not as well as i do now because I could not be as free as i am. Still, I knew I did not fit in the the guys. They were rough and always seemed to have something to prove to each other. I never got the guy talk either and when I tried to pretend to be a cis straight guy it failed because I am so feminine and I like guys. I realized very early that not liking girls was really hard to hide because they would ask me what I liked in girls and I would be like their personality or something. I mean I still don't get gays that well and it sucks because I really want to understand them.
i was never really social with males, i was always very shy and reserved. I always related better with girls and when i was small i was told i must play with the boys, so i preferred being on my own and started wearing pantyhose to try to relate to myself.. the female side at the age of 14. i only realized i was a woman at 19, and then embraced myself
now as a post-op transsexual i the exact opposite to that child. I am outgoing, love socializing and I am one of the girls.
In primary school the boys and girls were segregated in the playground...made it really hard to mix with girls. I had to go to a boys high school... :(
Generally my male friends were the quiet, bookish types. I was always aware there were social penalties for not acting like a boy so I learned the absolute bare minimum I had to pretend to conform to when in public. I'm sure my persona was fairly bland or peculiar but it stopped me from being beaten up or teased. During those years I looked forward to getting home and retreating to my room so I didn't have to pretend to be anything. I was always a bit of a loner, didn't come out of my shell until third year at university...and guess what, 85% of my friends were lovely, loud, fun and intelligent women.
Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 12:21:21 AM
Again your post makes me wonder about the female friend thing. I wonder if sexuality is the reason some of yall found it hard to have female friends. I guess guys are stereotyped if they are straight, or really just if they are assumed to be, and it's not always fair to them. Since to be fair, guys are demonized over their sexuality and assigned a predatory status. And i feel bad, because even I'm guilty of this. When a guy is obviously gay I feel immediately more comfortable than if he might be or is straight. I'm not sure how to fix that.
I do remember when i was flying across the country basically the day before I transitioned, (cuz I didn't feel safe transitioning while living with family) I had to wear male clothes (though pretty preppy) still since my family was sending me off and my sister was driving me to the airport. I did pass as male at the airport and I felt like the girl who sat next to me was giving off weird vibes. I said hi and stuff but she didn't seem to want to talk, or like, wanted not to. I get uncomfortable when someone else seems uncomfortable so it was like, oh god, is she seriously getting weird ideas about me? It always sorta pissed me off if girls assumed off the bat I was attracted to them, i don't know, though i understand it since I live it too , I know what /most/ guys are thinking. Anyway i think it was a 5 hour flight and we didn't talk at all. Though to be fair it was a night flight and we both slept a lot of the way.
Anyway it's just funny to think people would have projected that onto me cuz I went and changed a few hours later and never passed as a boy again and ofc it never happened again. One thing i didn't really like about living as a boy is having to wonder whether other girls got weird ideas about me before they knew me. It just felt weird.
Yep... that was pretty much it. I had NO problems whatsoever making female friends before puberty hit. In fact, my best friends were girls all the way from preschool up through 6th grade. But then in 7th grade I moved to a new school, and none of the girls knew me, and the complication of puberty and romantic attraction were thrown in to the mix. And so every single school year after that, I had NO ONE to talk to, because none of the guys were on the same level as me in terms of social connections. I used to talk about EVERYTHING with my best female friends. But none of my male friends wanted to talk, they just wanted to play games all the time. But I couldn't just be friends with a girl, because they weren't used to the concept of there being a "straight" guy who just wanted to be friends. Every single time I talked to them, they gave me this cold standoffish treatment where they kept their distance as if they were sure that there had to be some sort of relational motive involved, so don't trust him, don't let him get too close.
It's telling that the only times in high school that I was ever happy were the two semesters when I had girlfriends. And when I say "girlfriend," I mean a girl who assumed that we were looking into a relationship, and thus she let me in and let me talk to her, although in retrospect I never had any serious "love" feelings, and spent the entire time that I knew both of them doing nothing but talking. And I was also able to survive college because I finally got a steady girlfriend, and had a girl that I could talk to, vent to, share feelings with, on the phone every other night. And ironically, in all of these cases, it was the girls who were pressing me into romantic things.
So yeah... I just do NOT do well in my life during times where I don't have any female friends to talk to. Guys just do not talk. Even the nice guys at social gatherings seem more interested in playing games together than making actual emotional social connections, and the non-nice guys are more interested in proving their manliness and ripping on each-other, which to me feels more like competition that even liking the people there.
Male socialization always confounded me, and still does. In school, I always had drama with my male friends... teasing, friendships breaking up and re-forming over hurt feelings, being made fun of even by my so-called "friends." Where with every single one of my female friends, no drama whatsoever. We were like two peas in a pod, almost never argued, and just had fun.
I am SO glad that that stigma is gone now. Women giving me that "girl talk" treatment where they open up and talk with me in a comfortable manner, without that same nervous standoffish treatment that they give to men, has seriously been one of the best parts of transition. I FINALLY feel emotionally connected to the world again.
I found it really difficult to keep freindships, as I never had the confidence to really make real strong freindships! I always felt different!! Fortunately for me I was good at sports and enjoyed football, so I wasnt really bullied and beaten up!! However I was seen as someone eho was soft, and was seen as a wuss! But I think my love of sports made it a lot easier to hide being trans!!
When I went to uni though this was when I started to find it really difficult to make freinds! I did civil enginering and didnt really go out with the guys on the course!! I think that it was this time that I really camr to terms with not wanting to be male!! I lived in a house of girls, and longed to be seen as one of the girls!!
Now im out, and many of my freinds know about zoe, im finding ig so much easier to make freinds! I think yhis is down to having a lot more motivation, and being able to do activities I really want to do! I go to many dance classes, and am starting a course in beauty therapy, so am making freinds there!!
There is still a big isdue with confidence though!! But im hoping hormones will help with that!!
Xx
Growing up as male made me feel very horrible. I never fitted in. Plus males can be such pigs at times (hey look at that girl and her breasts! What did you think of those?).
Now I'm on HRT, most don't know about me and I fit in with girls i'm much more happier and are so much more social.
I was always socially awkward with almost everyone. I had mostly male friends during my school years but would only be able to attract the quiet and\or mentally disturbed male kids in school. I was constantly bullied during school; things were thrown at me (not just small things; people tried to throw scooters and shopping carts at me), I was called names, and I was ousted by kids of both genders. During high school, I would spend most of my time as alone and isolated from everyone else as possible. I recently reconnected with a high school acquaintance of mine and she told me that she cant even remember if I ever spoke a word in high school. As a result of all of this and the fact that I was ashamed for being and confused about being trans that I was very quiet at school but very angry and upset at home. Life was not very fun back then and now I'm still trying to fight my social anxiety issues so that i can connect with more people. So far, i think I'm improving but its going to take more time to get all the way there. I also never really was able to develop a sense of style with my clothing as only recently have i been building a female wardrobe to wear. Back when I was a child, I was afraid of wearing makeup in fear of people making fun of me if i was unable to wash all of it off so now I need to start from the very basics in order to be able to apply makeup properly.
I do have to say that a lot of the quiet and\or mentally disturbed individuals that I hung around during high school have now become some of my biggest allies in my transition and they have also become much more social sense school.
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery. A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress. Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.
I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way. One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all. I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths. Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw. Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.
Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman. I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.
Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great. I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys. Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things. Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing. I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.
At the risk of not writing a small novel a lot of what others here have already posted happened to me as well. Didn't fit in and never really did. And when I did, I found myself playing a role more than anything else. Sadly I got pretty good at it. I think Jill actually hit the mark when she said "Inside was a scared little girl" but I built up extremely large walls to protect her. As my therapist put it just yesterday. "Veronica has been there all along, but Ron has built a defense mechanism around her so she doesn't get hurt" This actually make a lot of sense.
Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths. Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw. Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.
I think this is a really interesting point, and one that I'm looking forward to exploring as a I transition in my professional life. I've got an MBA, I work in finance, and have a good job. But I've always felt like my ineptitude in developing a network of contacts has held me back professionally. I've got an outgoing personality, but I've always felt uncomfortable in the good ol boys club.
Yes, there's a glass ceiling awaiting me. But a big part of it is the early socializing that you mentioned. With my male conditioning and my female charms, I can see that being a real advantage -- providing I pass well.
And BTW, I generally try to find the silver lining. And as crappy as it is being trans, I can see this being an advantage.
Quote from: katiej on April 18, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
I think this is a really interesting point, and one that I'm looking forward to exploring as a I transition in my professional life. I've got an MBA, I work in finance, and have a good job. But I've always felt like my ineptitude in developing a network of contacts has held me back professionally. I've got an outgoing personality, but I've always felt uncomfortable in the good ol boys club.
Yes, there's a glass ceiling awaiting me. But a big part of it is the early socializing that you mentioned. With my male conditioning and my female charms, I can see that being a real advantage -- providing I pass well.
And BTW, I generally try to find the silver lining. And as crappy as it is being trans, I can see this being an advantage.
I agree with all of your points here but I do not think that it's "crappy being trans". There are definitely a lot of struggles with being trans but its just a different way of being. I'm proud that I'm trans and although I may have faced some huge struggles in accepting myself in the past and will most definitely see more struggles as I continue this path, I'm still glad that i am who i am.
Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery. A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress. Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.
I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way. One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all. I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths. Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw. Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.
Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman. I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.
Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great. I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys. Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things. Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing. I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.
Good points. Explains better than I could.
I think the silver lining for me is that I probably feel freer to be myself and express myself than most men. I don't want that part of being male that expects us to be an automaton. I think it prevents men from fully expressing themselves and their personalities. There's so much that's just off limits or frowned upon.
Also, I probably feel freer to like beautiful things than if I had been raised male. Small thing, but important to me.
Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery. A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress. Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.
I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way. One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all. I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths. Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw. Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.
Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman. I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.
Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great. I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys. Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things. Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing. I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.
Problem is, a lot of times those expectations become too much.
I was extremely talented in these fields from a very young age, and I had this issue where my parents started expecting too much of me. So while yes, having high expectations did open up the door for more success, it was also a graveyard in terms of developing self-worth. I basically internalized that nothing that I did was ever good enough unless it was absolutely perfect. Even if I got a 98%, my dad was always trying to get me to improve on it, to get that very last 2%.
Basically, it led to something that my mom calls "learned helplessness" where I started taking every single task as a test of my self-worth. And if I didn't succeed in things immediately, my response wasn't to study and work hard and get better, it was to feel shame and disgust at myself for failing, for not living up to my parents' expectations.
Frankly, I actually hated being male for this reason. I felt like if I was female, rather than having success in those fields be an expectation, it would be something that I was wowing people with, because they didn't expect a girl to be good in them. I felt like with that pressure off, I would have been much better off, and I would have learned to put hard work and effort into things to get better at them rather than feeling like every single time I failed I was letting everyone down, and thus not even trying because I felt so horrible about myself.
This pretty much sabotaged my entire academic career. Despite scoring at the top tier of every single standardized test I ever took, I was failing school classes, depressed, and miserable. And none of the academically-talented girls that I knew had this problem. They were all making close to straight-As, and knew the value of hard work and effort.
I'll admit, this is just one person's experience. But for me at least, I believe that this academic "privilege" and these expectations of success actually hurt me.
(In case you haven't noticed, I have NOTHING positive to say about the male experience. I still can't find a single way that it's actually helped me. No matter how I look at it, all I see it doing is turning me into a shy, miserable, emotionally-brain-dead kid whose subsequent lack of self-worth squandered whatever academic potential I had.)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 05:12:41 PM
Problem is, a lot of times those expectations become too much.
I was extremely talented in these fields from a very young age, and I had this issue where my parents started expecting too much of me. So while yes, having high expectations did open up the door for more success, it was also a graveyard in terms of developing self-worth. I basically internalized that nothing that I did was ever good enough unless it was absolutely perfect. Even if I got a 98%, my dad was always trying to get me to improve on it, to get that very last 2%.
Basically, it led to something that my mom calls "learned helplessness" where I started taking every single task as a test of my self-worth. And if I didn't succeed in things immediately, my response wasn't to study and work hard and get better, it was to feel shame and disgust at myself for failing, for not living up to my parents' expectations.
Frankly, I actually hated being male for this reason. I felt like if I was female, rather than having success in those fields be an expectation, it would be something that I was wowing people with, because they didn't expect a girl to be good in them. I felt like with that pressure off, I would have been much better off, and I would have learned to put hard work and effort into things to get better at them rather than feeling like every single time I failed I was letting everyone down, and thus not even trying because I felt so horrible about myself.
This pretty much sabotaged my entire academic career. Despite scoring at the top tier of every single standardized test I ever took, I was failing school classes, depressed, and miserable. And none of the academically-talented girls that I knew had this problem. They were all making close to straight-As, and knew the value of hard work and effort.
I'll admit, this is just one person's experience. But for me at least, I believe that this academic "privilege" and these expectations of success actually hurt me.
Oh, yeah, my boyfriend is like this too. It takes so much prodding to get him to just try when I know he's really smart, but he's always beating himself up. We decided it was some compensatory narcissism. Just have to slowly unravel those beliefs about yourself. :)
I do have something similar also, except my belief is that people will hate me and leave me, and that I'm fundamentally bad and toxic. It takes a long time to unlearn. It might help you a lot to talk to a therapist!
Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery. A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress. Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.
I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way. One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all. I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths. Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw. Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.
Thanks for sharing a different perspective. :)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 05:12:41 PM
Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery. A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress. Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.
I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way. One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all. I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths. Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw. Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.
Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman. I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.
Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great. I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys. Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things. Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing. I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.
Problem is, a lot of times those expectations become too much.
I was extremely talented in these fields from a very young age, and I had this issue where my parents started expecting too much of me. So while yes, having high expectations did open up the door for more success, it was also a graveyard in terms of developing self-worth. I basically internalized that nothing that I did was ever good enough unless it was absolutely perfect. Even if I got a 98%, my dad was always trying to get me to improve on it, to get that very last 2%.
Basically, it led to something that my mom calls "learned helplessness" where I started taking every single task as a test of my self-worth. And if I didn't succeed in things immediately, my response wasn't to study and work hard and get better, it was to feel shame and disgust at myself for failing, for not living up to my parents' expectations.
Frankly, I actually hated being male for this reason. I felt like if I was female, rather than having success in those fields be an expectation, it would be something that I was wowing people with, because they didn't expect a girl to be good in them. I felt like with that pressure off, I would have been much better off, and I would have learned to put hard work and effort into things to get better at them rather than feeling like every single time I failed I was letting everyone down, and thus not even trying because I felt so horrible about myself.
This pretty much sabotaged my entire academic career. Despite scoring at the top tier of every single standardized test I ever took, I was failing school classes, depressed, and miserable. And none of the academically-talented girls that I knew had this problem. They were all making close to straight-As, and knew the value of hard work and effort.
I'll admit, this is just one person's experience. But for me at least, I believe that this academic "privilege" and these expectations of success actually hurt me.
(In case you haven't noticed, I have NOTHING positive to say about the male experience. I still can't find a single way that it's actually helped me. No matter how I look at it, all I see it doing is turning me into a shy, miserable, emotionally-brain-dead kid whose subsequent lack of self-worth squandered whatever academic potential I had.)
I can see where that would be tough. Generally though, it seems a male upbringing better equips one for life in most arenas than a female one. Not that some girls don't get some of this, and some boys didn't. Just not really built into a female upbringing near as much.
Like for me, I didn't have anything men usually get. And I do kind of feel less equipped for life as a man. I mean, I just transitioned into an adult male role without any of the training boys get. And trans women get this too in reverse. But the difference is that most of that are seen as great assets to a woman. The strength, assertiveness, skills, success, etc. That all looks really good and even rare on a woman.
But the female training on a man does the opposite.
It looks really bad. Often the ingrained female stuff on a man just makes him come off weak. Even little stuff like how he talks - cause girls are just raised in deference.
But the opposite kind of thing is really valued for a woman.
I think that's what Jen is getting at.
Doesn't mean those things aren't harmful. Or growing up male doesn't suck in many ways it doesn't for a girl. Just that girls for the most part are raised to occupy a lower status. And some of the strength and other assets trans girls got from not being raised that way (even if their life sucked and they were 'beta' whatever that is) are assets. Like even a cursory glance here shows many trans women are a lot more successful than the average woman.
I mean, several women on this board who transitioned early have stated they'd have probably just ended up pregnant dropouts if they'd cis. And I don't think they're too off the mark. Sure, lots of successful, career women out there, but it's not the norm.
^And I just feel like I got the short end of the stick in both regards.
Because I got the lack of emotional freedom from the male socialization, and yet I still catch myself falling into the exact same habits that keep most women from succeeding professionally... undervaluing myself, not being assertive, being too afraid to stand up for my rights, apologizing for myself, not defending myself, trying to be seen as "good" by everyone above all else, being afraid of confrontation, etc.
Male socialization benefits those who actually fit into and value the masculine standards forced onto them.
But frankly, any trans woman who didn't fit into that, and spent their entire school careers hating that male socialization and actively trying to escape it, I feel like we got the worst of both worlds. The lack of emotional development and self-expression from "guy world," plus the passivity and lack of self-worth and drive from "girl world."
(In case you haven't noticed, my middle/high school career SUCKED. And now that I'm unemployed in two back-to-back cases because I refused to stand up for myself, and just went to a job fair where my ex-girlfriend was constantly telling me "will you PLEASE quit selling yourself short?" these past experiences are really fresh in my mind, and I can't help but feel like I really got the short end of the stick during the most crucial phases of the development of selfhood and future career skills. So if male socialization is an advantage, it sure as hell didn't help me. How the hell did I end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for s***ty minimum-wage jobs after scoring in the top 10 in the entire state of Florida in math? HOW???!!!)
Sigh... FML... :'(
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 06:24:40 PM
^And I just feel like I got the short end of the stick in both regards.
Because I got the lack of emotional freedom from the male socialization, and yet I still catch myself falling into the exact same habits that keep most women from succeeding professionally... undervaluing myself, not being assertive, being too afraid to stand up for my rights, apologizing for myself, not defending myself, trying to be seen as "good" by everyone above all else, being afraid of confrontation, etc.
Male socialization benefits those who actually fit into and value the masculine standards forced onto them.
But frankly, any trans woman who didn't fit into that, and spent their entire school careers hating that male socialization and actively trying to escape it, I feel like we got the worst of both worlds. The lack of emotional development and self-expression from "guy world," plus the passivity and lack of self-worth and drive from "girl world."
(In case you haven't noticed, my middle/high school career SUCKED. And now that I'm unemployed in two back-to-back cases because I refused to stand up for myself, and just went to a job fair where my ex-girlfriend was constantly telling me "will you PLEASE quit selling yourself short?" these past experiences are really fresh in my mind, and I can't help but feel like I really got the short end of the stick during the most crucial phases of the development of selfhood and future career skills. So if male socialization is an advantage, it sure as hell didn't help me. How the hell did I end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for s***ty minimum-wage jobs after scoring in the top 10 in the entire state of Florida in math?)
I think an important thing to note is that you DO know that you are capable. You're frustrated with how you're doing, but you actually do believe that you could be doing better than you are with your abilities. And you are defending yourself right now.
Those are some benefits of male socialization. I mean, at the end of the day, you're batting for the Carrie Liz team, even if it is hard. And that's great. Somewhere you do have a belief in yourself. You have access to the idea that you can accomplish things, which, believe me, not everyone has, even not everyone who actually could be really capable. Some benefits of male socialization are just in not being as likely to suffer from many of the problems female socialization causes, and vice versa.
I'm not trying to invalidate your experience, just trying to help to point out some silver linings to something that you had no choice over (being socialized as male.)
@ Carrie
Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.
It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.
Sorry... and I don't want to come across as someone who's not sympathetic. I think I've mentioned before, I HATE it when I see girls who have no self-confidence, no sense of pride in their own work, prefacing everything with "I don't think it's any good," because they were just raised to view themselves as lesser.
So I do see it. I see it all the time, actually. And it really makes me sad, and I wish I could do something about it.
I guess maybe in some way I'm just trying to convince myself that somehow I could have done better, somehow I could have overcome all of that, somehow I could have been a shining feminist example of someone who didn't let those things get her down. But at the end of the day, I'll just admit I'm a silly trans woman looking at female socialization through rose-colored glasses.
(And all too often falling right into the male-socialized "Mr. Fix-it" mindset rather than truly having empathy like I should be. :()
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
@ Carrie
Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.
It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.
I think this is happening because these experiences are getting connected in the wrong way, you know? Trans women feel bad about their male socialization and wish they had been socialized female, and vice versa, and feelings just are feelings, they're not about pros and cons. They can be backed up by rational thinking but they can also be independent of it. I think rationally, while trans women know or should know that males have a serious set of privileges, they are thinking emotionally and not rationally. They're responding to emotional (perceived) threats (of invalidation) with emotional narratives. I think that can be bad if they don't actually know rationally that males are privileged, and deny the misogyny that women face, but ultimately I guess you have to take these posts with a grain of salt because they're just emotional venting, which is not rational.
So, I want everyone to understand (oooh, I feel so official! I'm the thread starter!) that I'm hoping for this just to be a place to vent feelings. So ask yourself when posting if you're trying to make a point (rational post that you want feedback or criticism on) or if you're just trying to get something out (emotional post that is personal and you just want someone to hear and understand how you feel.)
It's okay to make a point too, but if you are, please try to indicate that that's what you're doing, and please give a lot of consideration to other perspectives and a less subjective view of the topic.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 06:47:47 PM
Sorry... and I don't want to come across as someone who's not sympathetic. I think I've mentioned before, I HATE it when I see girls who have no self-confidence, no sense of pride in their own work, prefacing everything with "I don't think it's any good," because they were just raised to view themselves as lesser.
So I do see it. I see it all the time, actually.
I guess maybe in some way I'm just trying to convince myself that somehow I could have done better, somehow I could have overcome all of that, somehow I could have been a shining feminist example of someone who didn't let those things get her down. But at the end of the day, I'll just admit I'm a silly trans woman looking at female socialization through rose-colored glasses.
You're not silly honey. I'm sure that it's hard to reconcile what I'm talking about when it's everything you ever wanted. I went about it the wrong way and really messed up trying to talk about it over these weeks. When I talked about how women are old at 25 and mostly valued for their looks. That's what it felt like. And a lot of people do think this way. I didn't talk about it the right way. I was trying to say all this stuff still has me seriously messed up, even as a guy.
To me, I guess, being male is limiting in a few specific ways - expression and clothes. (No small things!) But being female is limiting in lot of ways that have to do with basic humanity and personhood. And not just the glass ceiling etc, but also just the basic environment girls are raised in. The few women who are successful on a par with males either were very, very strong or really lucky in terms of parental and environmental factors.
I can't argue anymore. Because now, for better or for worse, I think I know what it's like to vent and spill your heart out only to have someone tell you "Oh, it's not that bad, you had this and this and this which was actually an advantage for you," and feeling like people aren't even listening, and feeling like "how the hell can you possibly say that this hell I went through had advantages when it screwed my life up this much and I ended up in this bad of a place?"
So yeah... I've vented, it was just emotional venting, a LOT of hurt came out, and I'm sorry for not giving others who did the same the same emotional courtesy of having their pain ackowledged. I'm sorry for being such a preachy one-sided b****.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
I can't argue anymore. Because now, for better or for worse, I think I know what it's like to vent and spill your heart out only to have someone tell you "Oh, it's not that bad, you had this and this and this which was actually an advantage for you," and feeling like people aren't even listening, and feeling like "how the hell can you possibly say that this hell I went through had advantages when it screwed my life up this much and I ended up in this bad of a place?"
So yeah... I've vented, it was just emotional venting, a LOT of hurt came out, and I'm sorry for not giving others who did the same the same emotional courtesy of having their pain ackowledged. I'm sorry for being such a preachy one-sided b****.
No, if you don't like my post then please tell me. If it ended up being invalidating... please tell me. I wanna listen in this thread more than I want to talk. I'm also bound to be wrong a lot of the time. But, a lot of the issues you are going through have causes and solutions, and the solution to some problems is gaining self-awareness about your problems, accepting that they affect you and letting that be okay for now, but not permanent. You don't have to shut down or attack yourself. It's good to talk about it. It is good to communicate. But, I also think it's great that you were able to feel the other side of the impact you might have had before!
We're all figuring it out. (:
Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 06:58:57 PM
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
@ Carrie
Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.
It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.
I think this is happening because these experiences are getting connected in the wrong way, you know? Trans women feel bad about their male socialization and wish they had been socialized female, and vice versa, and feelings just are feelings, they're not about pros and cons. They can be backed up by rational thinking but they can also be independent of it. I think rationally, while trans women know or should know that males have a serious set of privileges, they are thinking emotionally and not rationally. They're responding to emotional (perceived) threats (of invalidation) with emotional narratives. I think that can be bad if they don't actually know rationally that males are privileged, and deny the misogyny that women face, but ultimately I guess you have to take these posts with a grain of salt because they're just emotional venting, which is not rational.
So, I want everyone to understand (oooh, I feel so official! I'm the thread starter!) that I'm hoping for this just to be a place to vent feelings. So ask yourself when posting if you're trying to make a point (rational post that you want feedback or criticism on) or if you're just trying to get something out (emotional post that is personal and you just want someone to hear and understand how you feel.)
It's okay to make a point too, but if you are, please try to indicate that that's what you're doing, and please give a lot of consideration to other perspectives and a less subjective view of the topic.
Thanks hon. Well, I guess my feelings right now are both rational and emotional. I think it adds insult to injury to be born as 'the other' when you're male inside (not only were you were born the wrong sex, that sex also has the lower status). And that ftms have to deal with something mtfs don't - accusations and insinuations we are just trying to escape a 'lower status'. Mtfs don't have that to deal with. They never have to wonder if somehow at age 2 they got the message it was less preferable to be female. Usually, their childhood experiences enforce directly the opposite - that they are of the 'ruling class' and should never deign to don the clothing or mannerisms of slaves. (now that's a bit of a dramatic way to put it but... pretty much).
So as an ftm, I've got to deal with all this stuff. I've got to feel bad about acquiring what society sees as the preferred position.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
I can't argue anymore. Because now, for better or for worse, I think I know what it's like to vent and spill your heart out only to have someone tell you "Oh, it's not that bad, you had this and this and this which was actually an advantage for you," and feeling like people aren't even listening, and feeling like "how the hell can you possibly say that this hell I went through had advantages when it screwed my life up this much and I ended up in this bad of a place?"
So yeah... I've vented, it was just emotional venting, a LOT of hurt came out, and I'm sorry for not giving others who did the same the same emotional courtesy of having their pain ackowledged. I'm sorry for being such a preachy one-sided b****.
Aww honey. I'm sorry. This has been really emotional for me as well the past few weeks. Trying to work through all this stuff, I guess. I understand. I didn't go through a male upbringing, but I understand it must have been really awful. I care, really I do. Yours was the post in that other thread that first made me realize I was hurting rather than helping with my rants. I care a lot and really like you.
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 07:43:46 PM
Thanks hon. Well, I guess my feelings right now are both rational and emotional. I think it adds insult to injury to be born as 'the other' when you're male inside. And that ftms have to deal with something mtfs don't - accusations and insinuations we are just trying to escape a 'lower status'. Mtfs don't have that to deal with. They never have to wonder if somehow at age 2 they got the message it was less preferable to be female. Usually, their childhood experiences enforce directly the opposite - that they are of the 'ruling class' and should never deign to don the clothing or mannerisms of slaves. (now that's a bit of a dramatic way to put it but... pretty much).
So as an ftm, I've got to deal with all this stuff. I've got to feel bad about acquiring what society sees as the preferred position.
I completely understand why you would feel that way. And I agree that what you're saying is part rational, part emotional. It probably helps to sit down and go, which is the rational part, and which is emotional?
Umh, for example, when you say that ftms have to deal with accusations and insinuations that mtfs don't, trying to escape a lower status... I think the part that is rational is that FTMs DO have to deal with that, and MTFs don't. I think the emotional part is subtle. The emotional part is the implication that FTMs have a negative experience here that MTFs have no equivalent of. The reality is that they have a negative experience that is unique to them, but not necessarily that there is no equivalent for MTFs.
I mean, that's an invalidating reaction to your transition. But on the rational side, don't MTFs also have their motivations questions and reduced to something invalidating? Paraphilia. Fetishist gone wild.
The implications are different and happen for different reasons but in this case, the implication is the same... being unfit to transition via some fault attributed to your birth sex.
So rationally, I would want to call that a negative experience of being trans as a whole, even if it happens for different reasons on either side. And I think that would save an MTF person feeling invalidated at the emotional implication (MTFs don't have their motivations questioned like FTMs do) and saying that people accuse them of just having a weird sexual fantasy.
This is just an example of why I'm trying to split the rational/emotional stuff we're saying in this thread... cuz when it's blurred you get people who are speaking 2 different languages and of course it's frustrating.
So everything you said is valid, but I'm just suggesting that it means different things in different places that can come off as confusing. What do you think? Sorry if this is not making any sense to anyone.
And I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to set those things as perfectly equal. I don't really know if it's equal or not. I don't really know who has it worse. But at the end of the day people don't experience it like that. Everybody feels bad about some things and good about others. And it's totally okay to focus on what you feel bad about. And to acknowledge that there is a broader, very real social context that affects it in some way, but that maybe it's hard to know the exact level of effect on a personal level. You just need to remember that it's personal first when it's emotional. And it's impersonal first when it's rational. So you have to make points mainly rationally and vent mainly emotionally, and I think if everyone does that we will all be on more or less the same page. Or at least closer to that!
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
@ Carrie
Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.
It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.
You got screwed. We all got screwed. Bigtime. Do I think females get treated worse? Yes, of course. We are too often victims of violent crimes and systematically subjugated. Girls also receive some toxic cultural programming where it is reinforced that they are to be pretty, thin, have a nice figure and not to be assertive or uppity. What is even more toxic is that females judge each other on these cultural criteria, further reinforcing this. Girls are too often not expected to be smart, succesful or have a keen business sense. In some coutries, being female is a much worse thing than in the US. I certainly wouldn't want to be female in an Islamic country, for instance. In college I watched a women's studies film about Chinese women called Small Happiness. When a male child is born, it is considered a big happiness. When a girl is born, it is a small happiness. Sometimes a girl is so much less desirable that infanticide is practiced, in hope that the next child born will be male. It was heartbreaking.
I had to deal with horrible bullying as a kid. I was an outcast, a misfit and I did not feel like I was properly socialzed, programmed or equipped to be either male or female. I never could relate to dudebro culture and missed out on a lot of positive experiences that most boys got. I had no alpha male friends and have no freaking clue how to be a leader or have a drive to be successful. I spent my college years getting wasted and had no idea why I was even there. I got a useless degree after almost six aimless years and had crappy grades that pretty much guaranteed that I was never going to grad school and be a success. The most useful things I learned in college, as it turned out, were from hanging out with women. I probably set the world record for most platonic female friends and almost felt like an honorary girl at times. Some were sweet, but some could be incredibly cruel and jealous. I no longer wonder why I seemed to understand girl culture better than guy culture.
Would I choose to be female? Probably not, all things considered. The thing is that I just am, and that's how it is. I'm me and I'm going to do the best I can playing out the crappy hand I got dealt. If you think being raised as female was crappy, being middle aged and female isn't that wonderful either. I'm not sure the grass is really all that much greener on this side of the fence.
We all got screwed and the only thing we can do is move forward and try not to let our painful pasts hurt us any further. We served our time, and that's enough.
Hugs,
Jill
@ sad panda's reply and also to Carrie
Oh I agree. I mean, I know trans women are demonized way more. And that there's a lot more backlash, including violence that I will pretty much never have to worry about on that level. And that trans women are seen as having some weird sick, perverted issue and trans men really aren't. I mean, I fully acknowledge that trans women as a group have it a lot worse than I do. And arguably even worse than cis females after transition in some cases.
So, there's been a lot of talk about this over the years. And I think most people acknowledge that generally speaking, trans women have it worse after transition. And that in a lot of cases they suffered more as children as well. I think what has been lost in the conversation however, is that the main reason things are the way they are for trans women - is that they are seen as trying to occupy the lower status that I was born into.
Like ok, say we've got an ancient household that has a full retinue or whatever it was called of slaves. And the master's son or daughter is repeatedly beaten for wearing the slaves' clothes or adopting their mannerisms. And maybe the slaves aren't even beaten as much as this master's child.
This might seem a bit over the top as an example, but it makes sense if you think about it. No matter who the master's child is, he or she is beaten for trying to occupy a position I actually occupy. Ya know? So, okay I'm a slave there. And maybe I've got a fairly decent life - not beaten or whatever. So in terms of certain things, this master's child suffers from more beatings and such than I do. But it's all because she's seen as trying to lower herself to what I actually am to people. So, if she's got such backlash just displaying characteristics associated with my position...
Well, think about it. It's really not an enviable position.
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 08:36:16 PM
@ sad panda's reply and also to Carrie
Oh I agree. I mean, I know trans women are demonized way more. And that there's a lot more backlash, including violence that I will pretty much never have to worry about on that level. And that trans women are seen as having some weird sick, perverted issue and trans men really aren't. I mean, I fully acknowledge that trans women as a group have it a lot worse than I do. And arguably even worse than cis females after transition in some cases.
So, there's been a lot of talk about this over the years. And I think most people acknowledge that generally speaking, trans women have it worse after transition. And that in a lot of cases they suffered more as children as well. I think what has been lost in the conversation however, is that the main reason things are the way they are for trans women - is that they are seen as trying to occupy the lower status that I was born into.
Like ok, say we've got an ancient household that has a full retinue or whatever it was called of slaves. And the master's son or daughter is repeatedly beaten for wearing the slaves' clothes or adopting their mannerisms. And maybe the slaves aren't even beaten as much as this master's child.
This might seem a bit over the top as an example, but it makes sense if you think about it. No matter who the master's child is, he or she is beaten for trying to occupy a position I actually occupy. Ya know? So, okay I'm a slave there. And maybe I've got a fairly decent life - not beaten or whatever. So in terms of certain things, this master's child suffers from more beatings and such than I do. But it's all because she's seen as trying to lower herself to what I actually am to people. So, if she's got such backlash just displaying characteristics associated with my position...
Well, think about it. It's really not an enviable position.
I hope you got that I was just isolating one thing you said to point out that you could communicate the exact same sentiment differently. My post wasn't making a point about the topic, just about communication. :) you are communicating to real people here. That means you either want to be understood by them or you want them to react to what you said.
Obviously, I don't personally find your position enviable! <--- that's my personal/emotional bit. There's a rational motivation to it but I don't need anyone to say anything about it. I'm just expressing how I feel.
Then, rationally... I also wonder who you are making it to. Again, it's confusing me, because you're talking like you're trying to prove a point, but I can't tell right now who you are proving it to or why, because you said it's to me but you know I already agree. So I'm not sure what to do with it. And that makes me really feel like you're trying to express how something affected you, not prove a point. Would you agree with that? Or were you trying to prove a point? (That women have lower status)
Like what you said in the end... it's not an enviable position... would that be your point? Hon, envy is an emotion, you can't ever prove a point about an emotion cuz emotions are personal and they can be weird and bad and wrong. It is enviable if someone envies it. Do you have a problem with them envying that? Something they shouldn't envy? I mean is it insulting because they don't understand the full picture? (and not to mention that they're envying cis girls, not you, which is similar to what you experienced but thru a different perspective) I get why, but also, does it matter? If you base how you feel on whether or not they envy it, you're putting your happiness in someone else's brain. At some point you have to own it. You have to accept that it's enough for you to know it was wrong. You have to accept that the wrongness of it doesn't depend on how other people feel about it. That's a self-validation problem deep down. I know it's not easy, but trying to convince other people to feel something is never gonna help :( it's just gonna make you feel worse and more angry.
Again, everything I'm saying here... I'm just trying to help from what I've learned about dealing with pain. If I'm off base, tell me! I want to know how everyone feels. Cuz I'm trying to communicate how I feel too and I don't want people to fight anymore.
Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.
Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.
I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 09:18:35 PM
Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.
Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.
I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)
Big hug from your big sister, FA!
well I don't know if this fits into the conversation or not because I'm trying to do two things at once right now. I'm trying to keep up with the discussion and work on my math hobby at the same time, but I wanted to say I've felt totally inferior in the male world all my life so to be woman for me is just a lateral move.
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 09:18:35 PM
Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.
Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.
I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)
Great! You want people to understand. ...that's perfect. :) Ofc, not everyone is going to understand, and you need to let that be okay too, bc otherwise it's not worth the energy, you can't conquer understanding. c:
You have people here who understand. Not everyone, but you do. You have sisters here...if you can see that in them. I mean you can talk about it here, you can pm me, you can pm a lot of us. I just want you to allow yourself to feel good about that. Or how can you move forward? I mean, you can always find new common ground with anyone and everyone here, but you have found some, and that is wonderful and so valuable. Don't you agree?
Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 09:32:47 PM
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 09:18:35 PM
Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.
Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.
I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)
Great! You want people to understand. ...that's perfect. :) Ofc, not everyone is going to understand, and you need to let that be okay too, bc otherwise it's not worth the energy, you can't conquer understanding. c:
You have people here who understand. Not everyone, but you do. You have sisters here...if you can see that in them. I mean you can talk about it here, you can pm me, you can pm a lot of us. I just want you to allow yourself to feel good about that. Or how can you move forward? I mean, you can always find new common ground with anyone and everyone here, but you have found some, and that is wonderful and so valuable. Don't you agree?
Yeah, I guess I really have. And that is awesome. :)
I guess I just need help healing and moving forward.
Quote from: Jill F on April 18, 2014, 08:32:33 PM
You got screwed. We all got screwed. Bigtime. Do I think females get treated worse? Yes, of course. We are too often victims of violent crimes and systematically subjugated. Girls also receive some toxic cultural programming where it is reinforced that they are to be pretty, thin, have a nice figure and not to be assertive or uppity. What is even more toxic is that females judge each other on these cultural criteria, further reinforcing this. Girls are too often not expected to be smart, succesful or have a keen business sense. In some coutries, being female is a much worse thing than in the US. I certainly wouldn't want to be female in an Islamic country, for instance. In college I watched a women's studies film about Chinese women called Small Happiness. When a male child is born, it is considered a big happiness. When a girl is born, it is a small happiness. Sometimes a girl is so much less desirable that infanticide is practiced, in hope that the next child born will be male. It was heartbreaking.
I had to deal with horrible bullying as a kid. I was an outcast, a misfit and I did not feel like I was properly socialzed, programmed or equipped to be either male or female. I never could relate to dudebro culture and missed out on a lot of positive experiences that most boys got. I had no alpha male friends and have no freaking clue how to be a leader or have a drive to be successful. I spent my college years getting wasted and had no idea why I was even there. I got a useless degree after almost six aimless years and had crappy grades that pretty much guaranteed that I was never going to grad school and be a success. The most useful things I learned in college, as it turned out, were from hanging out with women. I probably set the world record for most platonic female friends and almost felt like an honorary girl at times. Some were sweet, but some could be incredibly cruel and jealous. I no longer wonder why I seemed to understand girl culture better than guy culture.
Would I choose to be female? Probably not, all things considered. The thing is that I just am, and that's how it is. I'm me and I'm going to do the best I can playing out the crappy hand I got dealt. If you think being raised as female was crappy, being middle aged and female isn't that wonderful either. I'm not sure the grass is really all that much greener on this side of the fence.
We all got screwed and the only thing we can do is move forward and try not to let our painful pasts hurt us any further. We served our time, and that's enough.
Hugs,
Jill
Thanks hon. I guess for me, a lot of the stuff I'm trying to work through seems female specific. And I guess there's a bitterness there - because while I probably would have other problems from growing up male, they wouldn't be
these problems. Ya know?
Okay, for me - even though I've transitioned long ago - I am still viewing myself from the very critical, cruel eyes of a female. Especially in terms of appearance and age - both things that plague the average woman.
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 09:39:22 PM
I guess I just need help healing and moving forward.
This is not to take away from what I just said, but to be completely honest, I don't think you can do all of that here. I mean on susan's. Cuz you've said it before, as much as you put into this place, it's not really attached to you. I mean the other way around. It's anonymous.
(Not that you aren't breaking out of your admin shell... and that takes a lot of courage.)
But some healing does have to be done in real relationships. Which is probably really scary. :( but because it's scary... that is exactly why it has the power to heal.
Not saying you can't have your e-sistahs to talk it out with too. Cuz as far as that goes, we got your back. :)
I think either way you are heading towards something that is probably going to change your reality. Don't give up on it. You are totally doing the right thing in letting yourself feel this stuff out. That is my opinion... and I'm on a healing journey of my own, too. (:
Thanks sweetie. That means more than you know.
But I've got nowhere else. I'm pretty stealth, really. I mean, imagine me trying to talk to guys about this! That would be crazy and like suicide lol. And girls, again stealth. I can't talk to them about this. But also, I moved and don't know anyone here anyway. I would absolutely love to have girl friends in real life. But it didn't happen when I was a girl and not sure it can really happen now either. There's definitely a different vibe.
I mean, as a woman, even when a woman knew I was attracted to her, she usually just thought it was cute. Ya know? As a guy, it's a little different. I guess.
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 09:46:50 PM
Thanks hon. I guess for me, a lot of the stuff I'm trying to work through seems female specific. And I guess there's a bitterness there - because while I probably would have other problems from growing up male, they wouldn't be these problems. Ya know?
Okay, for me - even though I've transitioned long ago - I am still viewing myself from the very critical, cruel eyes of a female. Especially in terms of appearance and age - both things that plague the average woman.
If I was cis, I probably would have had a very different experience growing up, and I'm sure you would have as well. I can see where your bitterness comes from, and I really do get how being trans on top of what you went through must have seemed like a big, cosmic f-you.
I can tell that you are a wonderful, thoughtful, caring, beautiful person. And not all females have critical, cruel eyes either. If there's something you don't like about your appearance, you can either learn to like what you see or make some adjustments. Been there. I know a lot of cisguys who simply don't care about what they look like and are happy campers being fat, bald, short and gray. They are comfortable enough in their own skin and these things don't matter.
I wish I could make you feel better, I really do. I want nothing more than to see you happy.
Quote from: Jill F on April 18, 2014, 10:06:40 PM
If I was cis, I probably would have had a very different experience growing up, and I'm sure you would have as well. I can see where your bitterness comes from, and I really do get how being trans on top of what you went through must have seemed like a big, cosmic f-you.
I can tell that you are a wonderful, thoughtful, caring, beautiful person. And not all females have critical, cruel eyes either. If there's something you don't like about your appearance, you can either learn to like what you see or make some adjustments. Been there. I know a lot of cisguys who simply don't care about what they look like and are happy campers being fat, bald, short and gray. They are comfortable enough in their own skin and these things don't matter.
I wish I could make you feel better, I really do. I want nothing more than to see you happy.
ditto
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 10:05:50 PM
Thanks sweetie. That means more than you know.
But I've got nowhere else. I'm pretty stealth, really. I mean, imagine me trying to talk to guys about this! That would be crazy and like suicide lol. And girls, again stealth. I can't talk to them about this. But also, I moved and don't know anyone here anyway. I would absolutely love to have girl friends in real life. But it didn't happen when I was a girl and not sure it can really happen now either. There's definitely a different vibe.
I mean, as a woman, even when a woman knew I was attracted to her, she usually just thought it was cute. Ya know? As a guy, it's a little different. I guess.
Uh-uh. That's defeatist. There are an awful lot of girls out there, each of them have their own personality. If they exist on susan's they exist in the real world too.... I know you can and I can't isn't gonna get you there.
A good starting place is a therapist. It's a relationship for and about you that you can screw up as many times as you want. (and chances are they have met someone way crazier than you)
But don't say you can't have friends, or you can't talk about this to people in real life. I know you don't believe that and what you're saying is it's too hard. Well, yah, it's hard. But it doesn't cost anything to hope... and one day maybe you're gonna have an awesome friend. Or lots. Who really knows. Just don't give up on yourself over how things have been in the past... growth happens because you get better than the past.
Am I getting annoying now? Lol. Well, you wanted a sister. Deal with it. :3 I'm gonna be naggy.
Thanks girls!
Honestly, this thread has turned awesome. I know it probably sounds a little weird. But for me, this kind of sharing and listening is awesome for me. I mean, I really never had female friends. And it has been this void in my life. probably because it was something denied me. And so I see any kindness shown to me by a woman as gold. Really.
So my haters will probably scoff and maybe even question my manhood. But I don't care. Because right now, with all these women here being open and sharing - gold. Really.
Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 10:19:06 PM
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 10:05:50 PM
Thanks sweetie. That means more than you know.
But I've got nowhere else. I'm pretty stealth, really. I mean, imagine me trying to talk to guys about this! That would be crazy and like suicide lol. And girls, again stealth. I can't talk to them about this. But also, I moved and don't know anyone here anyway. I would absolutely love to have girl friends in real life. But it didn't happen when I was a girl and not sure it can really happen now either. There's definitely a different vibe.
I mean, as a woman, even when a woman knew I was attracted to her, she usually just thought it was cute. Ya know? As a guy, it's a little different. I guess.
Uh-uh. That's defeatist. There are an awful lot of girls out there, each of them have their own personality. If they exist on susan's they exist in the real world too.... I know you can and I can't isn't gonna get you there.
A good starting place is a therapist. It's a relationship for and about you that you can screw up as many times as you want. (and chances are they have met someone way crazier than you)
But don't say you can't have friends, or you can't talk about this to people in real life. I know you don't believe that and what you're saying is it's too hard. Well, yah, it's hard. But it doesn't cost anything to hope... and one day maybe you're gonna have an awesome friend. Or lots. Who really knows. Just don't give up on yourself over how things have been in the past... growth happens because you get better than the past.
Am I getting annoying now? Lol. Well, you wanted a sister. Deal with it. :3 I'm gonna be naggy.
Lol starting to sound like my sister! (god I miss her) I hope you're right. :)
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 10:27:23 PM
Lol starting to sound like my sister! (god I miss her) I hope you're right. :)
Aww... :( I'm so sorry. And I'm also honored that you would think that. I don't know anything about your sister but I bet she would be proud that you're making this effort to heal. You just need a hug. :(
Quote from: sad panda on April 17, 2014, 07:19:46 PM
What was your experience like growing up perceived as a male? How do you feel that affected you? And how has that affected/will that affect your experience as a trans woman? Let's have a thread where everyone can talk about their socialization and what you're struggling with. (:
Well, the thing is...I was always stuck in the middle. The very few friends I had all knew there was something "off" about me in terms of gender. I never had any sort of "male privilege". So, I always felt like I was stuck in the middle. One of the things that always stuck out back in my early school days was when we played dodge ball in gym class. They would split up the girls and the guys and in my mind I was always in the middle going, 'this really sucks', because I never fit in on either side.
It hasn't affected how things are now because I blend in okay so it's not a big deal these days.
Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 10:33:14 PM
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 10:27:23 PM
Lol starting to sound like my sister! (god I miss her) I hope you're right. :)
Aww... :( I'm so sorry. And I'm also honored that you would think that. I don't know anything about your sister but I bet she would be proud that you're making this effort to heal. You just need a hug. :(
thanks honey. I think maybe the pain and void of female friendships intensified for me once my sisters were gone. Because while I never had female friends, I did have sisters.
What I miss most is that no matter what ever happened to me or whatever I was going through - I'd be fresh from jail and sick, shaken and traumatized by everything that happened. And there would be my sister at the door. With the look of love and compassion only a girl can give. The hug only a girl can give. The way she said my name - just the kind of instant comfort only a woman can give. And maybe only a sister can give. Oh god, sorry. Crying. My heart is broken. Really broken.
sorry
I failed miserably at male socialization during my formative years
I was just being myself and didn't understand why I was treated in such an abusive manner by nearly everyone - I definitely didn't understand the attempted rape in the locker room showers or the subsequent other attempts or why people were so darn mean to me in general
Luckily, halfway through high school after the attempted rape in the showers my step dad began teaching me the martial arts he'd learned in Vietnam
Most folks decided not to to bother me much after that for some reason
Well, that's all I got to say about that for now
Take care
Hugs
I think the most effect this would relate to for me would be my past romantic relationships where I wasn't "manly" enough. I really wondered what that meant and tried to be "super manly", haha if that's a thing (it really isn't but you're welcome to disagree). I was just being me, they wanted me to be something I wasn't. Looking back, really terrible relationships at that.
I closed myself off from everybody and looked for every opportunity to be alone. Nothing guys talked about seemed fun and I always felt like a spy when I was around girls, like I shouldn't be there because they thought it was out of place. It just wasn't meant to be.
As far as sexism, it's there. But it's a give and take kind of thing. There's female privilege as well as male privilege. All things considered, life has been fairly decent to me and it could definitely be worse. I try to count my blessings.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 06:24:40 PM
^And I just feel like I got the short end of the stick in both regards.
Because I got the lack of emotional freedom from the male socialization, and yet I still catch myself falling into the exact same habits that keep most women from succeeding professionally... undervaluing myself, not being assertive, being too afraid to stand up for my rights, apologizing for myself, not defending myself, trying to be seen as "good" by everyone above all else, being afraid of confrontation, etc.
Male socialization benefits those who actually fit into and value the masculine standards forced onto them.
But frankly, any trans woman who didn't fit into that, and spent their entire school careers hating that male socialization and actively trying to escape it, I feel like we got the worst of both worlds. The lack of emotional development and self-expression from "guy world," plus the passivity and lack of self-worth and drive from "girl world."
(In case you haven't noticed, my middle/high school career SUCKED. And now that I'm unemployed in two back-to-back cases because I refused to stand up for myself, and just went to a job fair where my ex-girlfriend was constantly telling me "will you PLEASE quit selling yourself short?" these past experiences are really fresh in my mind, and I can't help but feel like I really got the short end of the stick during the most crucial phases of the development of selfhood and future career skills. So if male socialization is an advantage, it sure as hell didn't help me. How the hell did I end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for s***ty minimum-wage jobs after scoring in the top 10 in the entire state of Florida in math? HOW???!!!)
Sigh... FML... :'(
I actually identify very closely with your story, a lot of the experiences you describe here mirror my own, like eerily so. Please don't get the idea that being raised male was a good experience for me. It left scars. I barely survived tbh, and I can totally empathize with how you feel and if you still feel the crush of it all, it makes me feel emotional for you. Because I know exactly how that feels and I don't want anybody in the world to have to feel it.
Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:14:56 PM
But the female training on a man does the opposite.
It looks really bad. Often the ingrained female stuff on a man just makes him come off weak. Even little stuff like how he talks - cause girls are just raised in deference.
But the opposite kind of thing is really valued for a woman.
I think that's what Jen is getting at.
Yes, exactly.
One of the most difficult thing for transwomen is learning female socialisation cues. I know that as a "male" I was socially awkward for a large part of my life, probably didn't get it together until I was 35 or so. The way women communicate with other women is generally different from how they communicate with men, and it's certainly different from how men communicate with women or men communicate with men. So as transpeople socialised to communicate the way men communicate we can certainly be behind the communication eight ball during our transition phase, often we lack certain communication cues and etiquettes which are expected of and by women. I've been "studying" it by watching the way women speak to each other, it's not too hard once I got the hang of it but it needed to be done.
The two genders are definitely worlds apart. It's very satisfying and WORTH IT to be seen as the one that is correct to you. It takes effort to retrain yourself to get to that point if you've been living as the other gender for a while.
I want to give a big hug to everyone on this thread, especially FA, who's fast becoming like an honorary brother to me.
My childhood was extremely different. I grew up in the Philippines where there's an established identity category for feminine boys, and I was pretty much allowed to do whatever I wanted. I was never policed and I had really significant friendships with both boys and girls, and I played with both genders though I guess I played with girls more. In the Philippines, the popular kids are the smart kids, and I was one of the smarties so I was well-liked and sought after as a friend. Boys in the Philippines were aware that I'm feminine and would probably grow up to like boys, and there were a few who cared about that, but most of them didn't care and were happy to be my friend.
I was never bullied and pretty much always felt loved by my family, especially my grandmother who raised me because my parents were 17 and were about to go to college when they had me. She still lives in the Philippines and is fiercely protective of me, correcting anyone who tries to use my birth name from before (no gendered pronouns in Tagalog, which is a relief).
My dad is a big LGBT advocate and grew his hair long and regularly wore a headband at a certain point in my transition process to show his solidarity. He's a big pain in the ass sometimes but in this specific respect he's wonderful.
Obviously this kind of upbringing had an enormous effect on my life, allowing me to be confident in myself and not fundamentally question that I am a good and worthy person. I hope that whatever other people have endured, you can know that it's not you but your environment that has shaped your life, and it's something that people can hopefully transcend.
I just published a piece about my childhood growing up without gendered pronouns if you feel like taking a look:
https://medium.com/the-archipelago/bd320108f834
Its funny, I always got along with both sexes the same in school.
I went to an all boys school and was ok at sport, but was very shy and boring. outside of school I had a few friends, both sexes and I was just that middle kid.
After I started living as a female I started to I found that it was harder to make female friends than male, however once you became friends with a female you were close.
I had an "ok" childhood but I had far more female friends than male friends, in jr and high school guys would never call me to hang out or do guy stuff with them but the girls in the neighborhood and female classmates would always invite me to hangout and socialize with them which I really enjoyed a lot, even though I was totally in boy mode way back then it just felt natural to hang with the girls :)
It's funny when I look back at my senior high yearbook all but one of the classmates that wrote in it were girls.
My sister is two years younger than me and we got along very very well and we shared a lot of the same friends, but with people usually saying she was the perfect "girl version" of me it would upset me a bit.
Hmmm... a lot of you seem to have had a tough time, and some of you can link it directly to your gender.
In contrast, sure my growing up wasn't all peaches and cream, but I really can't blame it on my male socialization.
This was because I figured out the 'rules' early on and by following them never encountered issues.
As an example, you know that silly fingernail test that runs around all elementary schools? Hey, look at your fingernails. If you look palm down you are a girl and palm up you are a boy. That stupid thing? Yeah, I made sure to pass it every time. I mean, that's a silly example, but it's one of many.
I learned what to do, what not to do, how to dress, what not to wear. Ect... I basically internalized the concept that femininity was a no-no and built it into my every action.
Now that I'm going to transition, I realize that I never actually disliked a lot of it, but I had just internalized the external expectations around me. Thus, socialized. But for the most part, even if I had transitioned early in life, I don't think I would have been a girly-girl most of the time, which is why I didn't feel such a huge problem with the socialization I received.
Yes, I was bullied, but that was because I was short and nerdy and when I was younger I cried a bit too often, but once I figured out how to control that, and once I got into High School I was quite popular among the general people. I could sit at 60% of the tables at lunch when it was filled with 400+ kids and instantly start up a conversation. I could always spot a friend in the hallway...
So, my socialization limited me. Yes. And I have felt far freer now that I have pushed aside those limitations, but I was not emotionally scared in particular from my childhood being socialized as a male.
How will it affect me? Well... I still am trying to release myself from the 'femininity is a no-no'... which sort of naturally broke itself anyways, but I still hit barriers mentally sometimes. Like, the color pink still puts me off sometimes, just because my mind says "Too feminine!" and warning signs go off... even though I already have plenty of pink stuff I love. I also think I'll naturally have some non-feminine or more androgenous styles a lot, just because it's what I'm use to, but I'm not worried about that.
It's pretty strange when I think of my life during my teenage years and childhood. Because a lot of the things I did I never applied gender to it. As far as socialization goes, like a few have mentioned, I too learned early on that I had to suppress my femininity at a very young age. I have very early memories from elementary where I saw kids like me being bullied for acting like a girl, so I did the opposite. There were a few times where my circle of friends would catch me not being very boyish and those moments just crushed me. Like some people would say I walked like a girl. But I always had a knack for analyzing people so I did my best to walk like a guy and eventually it stuck. Which would actually cause severe back problems later in my life. I had a female pelvis and didn't realize this fully till I was much older. I remember making promises to myself to continue to improve my male identity thus burying my female self even deeper.
However somethings I couldn't suppress completely and that was my sensitive self. I've always been a big cry baby, the smallest things would make me cry. There were numerous times throughout elementary and middle school where I would just cry in the middle of class because of a bad grade or someone I cared about was being hurt. That's always been me. a very sensitive person but over the years I did develop a thick skin. I'm still pretty sensitive nonetheless. Despite all of this in elementary my group of friends always saw me as a leader, I've always been the kind of person to take charge and guide people.
By middle school understanding the differences between male and female socialization became very clear to me. I would see how so many of the boys would treat the females and it was borderline monstrous honestly. The amount of sexism was atrocious. I saw so many girls constantly being treated like they were just sex objects. I remember feeling very uncomfortable and a few times I stuck up for the girls but by the 8th grade my depression was in full force. And the fiery attitude I had for so long died for a bit. I lost a lot of myself during those years. Suicide attempts were made and was drinking myself into oblivion. When I got to high school things became even worst and I ended up dropping out. I couldn't stand trying to act like these "macho guys" just so I could fit in. I've always been very social, so fitting in for me has always been a big deal. So basically my male socialization never really happened. I tried forcing it and it would just make my dysphoria even worst. I had been putting on an act since I was a kid, just to avoid the bullying and so I could have a some kind of social life. I had a lot of female friends, I always found it easier to connect with women vs guys.
Dropping out was the best thing I did during that time. I could finally focus on myself and just do what I though was best without any influence from my peers. I did have a few more rounds of depression happen when I started transition but it became less and less as time passed. Whatever male socialization I did have, it was very easy to do away with. Since it had never been natural for me to begin with and was always forced.
I had been hiding for so many years. It's been a long road but life is so much less of a struggle when you stop denying who you truly are. I'm the happiest I've ever been ;D
awww, thank you Kate, that's so sweet of you to say...
It was pretty weird being this age enigma huh? I swear it messes with you lol.
Wow! Obi Wan was right when he said,"You're going to find Luke, that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
I was raised in a matriarchy. My grandmother ruled, period. If you did not respect women, you got the back of your head smacked in. Imagine my surprise later in life when I found out that the rest of the world was ignorant of the truth. They actually thought that men made the rules. The way I see it, and this is my own opinion, men are hard, but women are strong. It is male interaction that makes it so. It's a contest, a game. It can lead to a lot of things but true growth is not one of them. Sorry to the men reading this, but my grandmother was right, men are just boys grown taller. It can be adorable though. Now that is a generalization. All men are not the same.
My early experiences with men were all bad. Men not boys. My father was a pig. I was sexually abused by my uncle from the age eight to twelve. My grandfather wanted nothing to do with me, but loved my older brother. After twelve though there was an uncle that finally broke through the distrust enough to show that not all men were bad.
Male socialization though, is just a contest. I was always good at games. The wall that I built in my mind by the time I was four kept me from showing any form of sensitivity, so I was ABLE to fit in. For the most part I chose not to.
Maybe our prisons are of our own making. There are laws and there are rules, but truths are a little more flexible. Maybe they are not true, until and unless, we accept them to be so.
Mikaela