Hi everyone,
I'm looking for a surgeon with good reputation, someone that have a long track of good results and happy patients.
What I need is revision rhinoplasty, brow ridge augmentation (to add frontal bossing) and maybe Jaw angle implants.
I live in the middle east so the surgeon doesn't have to be a US one, I'm willing to travel worldwide if I'll find the correct one.
Any recommendations?
Have you been on T for a while? A lot of times that can help to masculinize, and you may (probably) find that you don't need surgery.
I don't know of any facial masculinization surgeons, so I can't help you there. Sorry about that.
Can T actually stimulate bone growth after puberty? Transform a female skull to a man skull?
Everything thing that T does for non transguys does the same for transguys, Because you will go through male puberty
Quote from: Dani20 on April 18, 2014, 03:48:43 PM
Can T actually stimulate bone growth after puberty? Transform a female skull to a man skull?
I'd say yes to bone growth. I've grown almost an inch in height. I can't say specifically as to face bones though. As far ask female/male skulls go there isn't actually too big of a difference there. It will reshape your face though. Take a look at some pictures of people throughout their transformation on T. You'll see that face shape does often change significantly. I went from having a face people called pretty as a girl to being unclockable.
Try taking a look at a transman pre-T and then again after 3 Years on T. You'll see what I'm talking about.
I think thats one of the reasons that there isn't much need for facial masculinization. Trans ladies, on the other hand, often undergo facial feminization to reverse the effects that T had on their faces during/after their own puberties.
Firstly, puberty is a time when our bodies are flooded with sex hormones to promote secondary sex characteristics development. They activate development of body hair (and facial hair in guys) bone growth and development. Denser bones for guys, larger, more pronounced features, broader shoulders. Less prominent features for girls, wider hips, etc. Gender specific fat distribution. Breast for girls. etc.
HRT is pretty much just this. Flooding our bodies with sex hormones to promote secondary sex characteristics development. Testosterone for FtM, Estrogen for MtF. You'll be going through puberty a second time. It'll be during puberty again.
HRT can only add, it can't subtract. Breast growth can't be undone by hormones. Bone development can't be undone. You can't undone the wider hips that have developed if you are FtM. And MtFs can't get hips if they two pelvic bones have fused (around 25) Prior to that, however MtFs may see some widening of the hips due to estrogen triggering hip widening (started early enough, mtf may get some good hip development).
Lucky for you, testosterone adds bone. Your features will sharpen, become more pronounced over time. They will remain your features. But since the difference between a masculine face and skull and a feminine face and skull is sharper, more prominent features, through bone structure, yes T will masculinize your face naturally. Bone will be added making features more pronounced. Once this happens though, it can't be undone.
Unfortunately for myself and the other MtFs, estrogen can't remove the bone development that's occurred. We require surgery to feminize our face, by shaving the bone down, removing parts to contour it.
Same with facial hair. T will activate and turn on the follicles of the face, causing them to grow darker and thicker, giving one facial hair. Once done, this can't be turned off. So MtFs have to do painful and long laser or electrolysis treatments to kill the follicles and lose the facial hair. FtMs will start growing facial hair on T, which will not stop growing unless treated with laser or electrolysis treatments even if you stopped taking T.
All you need my friend is HRT and you'll start developing the masculine features. Like the first time around it'll still take a good while, but it will happen.
Have you been on T for a while or not? Facial surgery is a bit of a drastic move before considering what will happen with T. Personally, I have a very small head, some would suggest "obviously female sized" and it's never affected me passing. People never realise unless I happen to mention it in my excuse for avoiding hat situations. My face has changed quite a bit with T so far. Your overall skin changes which changes your face shape.
We all tend to overly worry about our own "defects". A good example is I lack a decent chin, and I hate it. I avoid profile photos because of it, and yet if I ever bring it up, people only then notice it. If you're not on T, I'd suggest you wait to see the changes there first. T does amazing things and is way less invasve than cutting into your face.
Quote from: Brandon on April 18, 2014, 04:07:56 PM
Everything thing that T does for non transguys does the same for transguys, Because you will go through male puberty
This isn't actually true unless you block female puberty and go through first puberty with HRT. For the majority of us this is a second puberty so we don't get everything.
Quote from: Jack_M on April 18, 2014, 05:44:49 PM
This isn't actually true unless you block female puberty and go through first puberty with HRT. For the majority of us this is a second puberty so we don't get everything.
It pretty much does and it also depends on just how much estrogen you produce already.
Thanks for your help,
I took a look at the photos people uploaded here, few have a a decent change but most already looked masculine before T (no offense) + it's hard to tell because most of the users took the before and after photos from different angels and lightning, different poses, changed the hair and clothing and some may even had makeup in the before and had plucked their eyebrows.
I only noticed like 3-4 that I would consider a feminine girl before and masculine man after, the others already looked masculine or still looked feminine.
I noticed the facial hair and the the skin texture changes which masculine the face but it's really hard to tell if they had any bone hypertrophy, I think that there is quite a difference between a male and a female skull :
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-IXlplWtpGtg%2FUBl1fMljaOI%2FAAAAAAAAA0o%2Fmsldtx7e5FU%2Fs1600%2Fmale-female-skull.jpg&hash=b33e559c2d1dd85eac9ac7ffacc54ee8a54778ea)
What I have is a female skull that I want to turn into a male skull which would only be achieved throw bone hypertrophy or implants. I think that in order to really look masculine one has to have the big/prominent bones not just the superficial features.
To the guys that wrote they had bone growth and height increase, My age is 24.
At you age did you start T?
How long it took for the growth to accrue?
Did you you took other stuff besides T?
Do you really think that you gained bone mass and not mistaken it for soft tissue changes that accrued due to T + strength training? (less buccal fat, thicker skin and facial muscles etc..)?
Do you really think your body grew taller and not mistaken it for better posture due to strength training + T ?
Dani, if your growth plates in your bones have fused already, you won't grow any taller. The bones are fused usually by age 25, but that is average, it could be earlier or later. Before they fuse you might get a bit taller.
Testosterone continues to make changes to the facial bones all our lives. So yeah, you will have some masculinizing of the face, and that will continue all your life as long as your on T. It might be a lot at first, it might not be. Everyone's different. But it will happen.
It's also a good idea to note that there isn't a male and female template. There's just a female template. We all start life as female. Then hormones kick in and those coded for female continue to develop as female, those coded for male start to develop as male. What triggers the division is our genetics activating hormones in the womb. Males trigger androgen hormones to develop as male. They also require a specific hormone that kills off the female reproductive system. The default has us continue to develop into females.
Hormones are what cause us to develop into male or female before birth. If there is a problem, say like we are immune to androgens (a real condition) we continue to develop as female, though we might be missing a uterus and cervix (killed off by the anti-wolffian hormones)
As babies and children there aren't that many differences between male and female physically, beyond reproductive organs and genitals. At puberty, a flood of hormones, either testosterone or estrogen matures us into an adult male or an adult female.
All the differences between male and female are caused by hormones. We all start the same. These hormones will alter you just like they did for cisboys during puberty. It can't undo the changes estrogen has caused already but it will give you the changes that testosterone did.
What testosterone does is increase bone density. Build up and sharpen features. That male brow is from testosterone. That chin and jaw, the prominent bumps and ridges will all develop to a degree. It won't be as total as if you had gotten it from puberty, and will be a gradual change. But it will happen and continue to happen.
Estrogen causes minimal bone definition in its changes compared to testosterone. This is why taking estrogen doesn't undo the masculinizing effects of testosterone. They do the same thing, just testosterone to the a much much greater degree. You will gain bone mass and density. The longer you are on testosterone the more these will be masculinized.
Colleen, everything you've said is such a reassurance. I mean, i knew it couldn't only be fat/muscle changes, there had to be bone change goin on too.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 08:54:27 PM
Dani, if your growth plates in your bones have fused already, you won't grow any taller. The bones are fused usually by age 25, but that is average, it could be earlier or later. Before they fuse you might get a bit taller.
Testosterone continues to make changes to the facial bones all our lives. So yeah, you will have some masculinizing of the face, and that will continue all your life as long as your on T. It might be a lot at first, it might not be. Everyone's different. But it will happen.
It's also a good idea to note that there isn't a male and female template. There's just a female template. We all start life as female. Then hormones kick in and those coded for female continue to develop as female, those coded for male start to develop as male. What triggers the division is our genetics activating hormones in the womb. Males trigger androgen hormones to develop as male. They also require a specific hormone that kills off the female reproductive system. The default has us continue to develop into females.
Hormones are what cause us to develop into male or female before birth. If there is a problem, say like we are immune to androgens (a real condition) we continue to develop as female, though we might be missing a uterus and cervix (killed off by the anti-wolffian hormones)
As babies and children there aren't that many differences between male and female physically, beyond reproductive organs and genitals. At puberty, a flood of hormones, either testosterone or estrogen matures us into an adult male or an adult female.
All the differences between male and female are caused by hormones. We all start the same. These hormones will alter you just like they did for cisboys during puberty. It can't undo the changes estrogen has caused already but it will give you the changes that testosterone did.
What testosterone does is increase bone density. Build up and sharpen features. That male brow is from testosterone. That chin and jaw, the prominent bumps and ridges will all develop to a degree. It won't be as total as if you had gotten it from puberty, and will be a gradual change. But it will happen and continue to happen.
Estrogen causes minimal bone definition in its changes compared to testosterone. This is why taking estrogen doesn't undo the masculinizing effects of testosterone. They do the same thing, just testosterone to the a much much greater degree. You will gain bone mass and density. The longer you are on testosterone the more these will be masculinized.
Is it scientifically proven? On what sources of information do you base your knowledge?
Biology major.
Love and fascination of biology since I was a kid.
Basic knowledge of puberty and hormones.
You can look up the info on google.
I did misspeak on one point. Wolffian system is the male system. Mullerian system is the female system. The anti-mullerian hormones is what kills the female reproductive system.
There is a condition called Androgen insensitivity syndrome. It is where a genetic male fetus is immune to male hormones. There are various levels of immunity. Complete Androgen insensitivity syndrome, they are totally immune to androgens. In the absent of the androgens (male hormones) the body continues to develop along it's natural template. Female. The anti-mullerian system cause the default female reproductive system to wither away before it develops into the uterus, cervix and upper vagina. The fetus continues to follow the natural template of female development in the absence of signals from male hormones (because they are immune to them), developing a vagina, labia, clitoris etc.
At puberty, these individuals will develop female secondary sex characteristics. Their bodies respond only to the natural levels of estrogen the testes produce, not the testosterone. If they were identified as AIS and their immature testes removed to prevent cancer risk, they will instead start hormone replacement therapy just like we take. Since they are immune to androgens, testosterone won't work, and so they get estrogen. This cause them to develop as female. hips, breasts, female facial and skeletal structure and denisty.
The only thing different between someone with Complete Androgen insensitivity syndrome and any other genetic male is their body doesn't respond to testosterone. That's it. They are genetically male. But develop as female.
You can google Complete Androgen insensitivity syndrome and see images of how a male in the absence of testosterone will develop.
There is something called the SRY gene. It stands for "the Sex determining Region of the Y chromosome" gene. It is found on the Y chromosome only. It initiates the development of a male fetus. When this gene is mistakenly transcribed onto an X chromosome, a fetus with XX chromosome, female chromosomes will develop into a biological male. They are known as XX male syndrome. You can google that too.
The gonads begin in a state that can develop into either female or male system. It is know as bipotential gonadal ridge. Without the SRY gene to activate male development, which is caused by the release of male hormones to develop the fetus into a male. Or in it's absence flooded with female hormones to develop the fetus into female.
Hormones define our sex before birth.
And again during puberty. Look up what puberty is. As wikipedia confirms "Puberty is the process of physical changes by which a child's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction to enable fertilisation. It is initiated by hormonal signals from the brain to the gonads: the ovaries in a girl, the testes in a boy. In response to the signals, the gonads produce hormones that stimulate libido and the growth, function, and transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sexual organs. Physical growth—height and weight—accelerates in the first half of puberty and is completed when the child has developed an adult body. Until the maturation of their reproductive capabilities, the pre-pubertal, physical differences between boys and girls are the genitalia, the penis and the vagina."
"For boys, an androgen called testosterone is the principal sex hormone."
"The hormone that dominates female development is an estrogen called estradiol."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty)
It goes on to list all the changes these hormones cause in both males and females.
Hormones are way our bodies develop. They signal cells and regions of the body to activate and start to grow and divide. When sections of the skull get this signal, the bone cells in that area divide and reproduce a lot more, causing a more noticeable and prominent structure. For example, hormones trigger the bone cells of the brow to divide and reproduce quickly. More cells mean more bone, mean larger region of bone that jets out noticeably from the forehead and bone around it. Think about it as if your were modeling the skull in clay and just kept adding more clay to the brow. The brow would be larger and stick out more. That's what happens to the brow under the influence of testosterone.
All of this can be looked up and confirmed for yourself.
But this is the reason for HRT. Hormones trigger development of secondary sex characteristics in puberty. HRT is used to induce a second puberty that will develop our bodies to match our gender identity and not our biology.
I think starting with some basics might help.
http://www.ftmguide.org/ttherapybasics.html
Quote from: Brett on April 18, 2014, 10:17:26 PM
Yes. It is accepted truth by those who have studied hormonal changes, you can't expect her to look up sources.
I think starting with some basics might help.
http://www.ftmguide.org/ttherapybasics.html
Thank you Brett. I was kinda hard pressed to back it up, as my source was myself and years of study and research. So instead I info dumped. lol.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
Thank you Brett. I was kinda hard pressed to back it up, as my source was myself and years of study and research. So instead I info dumped. lol.
As you can see I edited my post. You made me eat my hat!
Hopefully, the page I linked will help Dani with some of their questions.
I am older and have been on T for a bit over a year, T changed *my* face completely, and I am read as male 98% (or more). You can take a look at these two pictures. You won't develop brow ridges but you don't need them to be read correctly. You can see that is more soft and curvy pre-T and more hard and squared from T. Surgery would be quite painful and involves major major stuff and is $$$.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHAHuT7a.jpg&hash=24bab3bd6b0a00ad25c3ee458fcdc1c93a5f8660)
--Jay
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
Thank you Brett. I was kinda hard pressed to back it up, as my source was myself and years of study and research. So instead I info dumped. lol.
Do you think that testosterone is the sole aspect on how masculine a man will appear? Lets take this for example:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbuism.com%2Fattraction_files%2Fimage002.jpg&hash=431950626eb3cf5bac2410564256b456af6b4497)
Do you think that the only difference between the androgynous male on the left and the masculine man on the right in their T level and how well they absorb it? What if the androgynous male get his T levels checked and the results shows that they are high? so that means he must has Androgen insensitivity syndrome? How does that come around?
Yes, how much of the hormone you produce and how receptive you are too them is how it works.
Your DNA is a blueprint. Hormones are what activate, control and change your body to match that blueprint.
The female Clitoris and the head of the penis, are the same thing. Give female hormones during development and it develops into a clitoris. Give male hormones during development and it develops into a penis. See how that works? Blank slate beginning that can go either way.
Hormones are the way your body and genetics build you into a living breathing person all the way to adulthood.
Consider this:
When a trans kid wants to transition, what happens to them? They are too young for HRT and definitely too young for surgery? So Doctors give them hormone blockers to prevent puberty from happening until they are 16 and old enough to consent to HRT.
Without the hormones they don't go through puberty. Don't grow hips or breasts as a FtM. Don't grow facial hair or get a masculinized face as a MtF. Then they go onto hrt and start to go through puberty for their gender identity instead.
Now, why block hormones to prevent puberty if that wasn't what causes puberty?
I don't know what you want? All of this can be verified by you with a quick search. It's not a big secret or a newly discovered breakthrough. This is known, proven and rather common knowledge and has been for a long time. It can be easily looked up and verified.
So don't believe me. Look it up for yourself. If you think something else is the cause, look it up and see. All I've done is try to help, and share how it works.
Well you get a brow ridge in 1 year on T? No. As someone who went through puberty on the male side of things, guess what? A cisguy doesn't get a brow ridge in a year. It'll take a while. But every year you will see your face masculinized more and more. And 5 years you'll see a ridge. In 10 years it'll be more pronounced.
T doesn't stop changing and shaping a man's face at the end of puberty. It's a life long thing. At 30 my face is still being shaped by testosterone. That'll stop this year though when I go on androgen blockers as part of my HRT.
Look it up. Doubt me all you want, but look it up yourself.
Wow. Thanks for all of the info in one place Colleen♡Callie. I too have done much research on the subject prior to starting my transition, thinking that surgery might be necessary also. I was stumped by the lack of surgeons for facial masculinization when there are surgeons for facial feminization, then I researched and discovered the drastic effects testosterone has. Thank you for taking the time to type that all out.
No problem Sebryn.
Colleen♡Callie I appreciate your help.
I need to say I'm not a transgender, I'm actually a male. Why did I post on this forum? because I thought the people here will have an idea about my OP question, after all this is a FtM trans forum.
I lack masculinity and I have occasionally been told that I can pass as a girl. I'm very androgynous, not 100% but like 70%-80% androgynous, female like skin, height, eyes, skull, hands and arms also my bone density is bellow average, It's hard for me to gain lean body mass.
It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me! ^-^ people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
The thing is I'm 24 years old and I got my hormones levels tested last year:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.org%2F3nzu2a0ox%2FUntitled.jpg&hash=9641b3fce865e3cc85576831c1530d48a11c9e23)
my T and E were always high, about in the same level. In this blood test the E was higher then normal so I went to the endocrinologist and told her about my androgenic worries and I wanted her to prescribe me medications that will lower my E / increase my T or both, she refused and told me that the high E results are in the standard deviation and that I'm healthy that I had a proper puberty and I don't need anything.
So why do I look androgynous if I have high T? Will my jaw and brow-ridge pop out in the next 5 years? Is my body not fully receptive to T? Do I have some kind of undiagnosed syndrome?
This is why I doubted you at the beginning.
I'm not a doctor, so I can't diagnose you with any conditions. It is very likely that you aren't very receptive to T, which could explain the high E too. Excess testosterone will eventually convert into estrogen. Something else entirely could be at play here.
I can't say. I couldn't say even if I were medically trained to do so, not over the internet at least.
The way T effects the body is why you won't find a surgeon with experience in Facial Masculinization. Not like you will for feminization. Sorry. That's not to say you won't find surgeons willing to do what you want, you're just not going to have examples of masculinization surgeries they've done previously to guide your choice.
Colleen, what awesome posts. I found that really helpful.
Quote from: Dani20 on April 20, 2014, 02:36:39 PM
It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me! ^-^ people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
Umm... probably this post just hit me at the wrong moment because I find it upsetting. I understand that you are struggling with an issue and meant no offense.
If we were happy with our masculinity, we wouldn't be taking hormones. We wouldn't be experiencing gender dysphoria. We wouldn't go to the lengths we do. Did you read the text with those pictures? Quite a few of those beards are glued on hair. I haven't been able to post a picture recently because I look at them and see female features and hate it. I can't wait for testosterone to change my features.
Instead of looking for surgery, how about you go to a different doctor first. If you can fly anywhere for surgery, you can find a doctor who can help you understand what treatment you need whether it be surgery, hormones or something else we don't know about.
I'm 5'1". I might be the oldest guy on the forum. I certainly started T the latest in terms of my age. I don't think I was masculine looking at all before T, though perhaps androgynous. I never was read as male before T. I am now read 97% of the time as male. I never got the idea of how long you've been on t, maybe I missed something.
There might be someone who would do surgery, but it is pretty much entirely unnecessary in FTMs. I'm sure someone would do it, but not sure how ethical they are.
It's possible you could gain in an inch or something, but at a certain point the growth plates close and you won't. There are many short cismen.
--Jay
Quote from: Dani20 on April 20, 2014, 02:36:39 PM
Colleen♡Callie I appreciate your help.
I need to say I'm not a transgender, I'm actually a male. Why did I post on this forum? because I thought the people here will have an idea about my OP question, after all this is a FtM trans forum.
I lack masculinity and I have occasionally been told that I can pass as a girl. I'm very androgynous, not 100% but like 70%-80% androgynous, female like skin, height, eyes, skull, hands and arms also my bone density is bellow average, It's hard for me to gain lean body mass.
It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me! ^-^ people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
The thing is I'm 24 years old and I got my hormones levels tested last year:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.org%2F3nzu2a0ox%2FUntitled.jpg&hash=9641b3fce865e3cc85576831c1530d48a11c9e23)
my T and E were always high, about in the same level. In this blood test the E was higher then normal so I went to the endocrinologist and told her about my androgenic worries and I wanted her to prescribe me medications that will lower my E / increase my T or both, she refused and told me that the high E results are in the standard deviation and that I'm healthy that I had a proper puberty and I don't need anything.
So why do I look androgynous if I have high T? Will my jaw and brow-ridge pop out in the next 5 years? Is my body not fully receptive to T? Do I have some kind of undiagnosed syndrome?
This is why I doubted you at the beginning.
You say you're genetically male then any decent plastic surgeon who specializes in facial structure should be able to help you achieve a more desired appearance. As for hormone levels, I can't help you there. There are conditions that cause disruption in the bodies ability to use T, though it could be genetic. I assume you've looked at your family members and noted either a similar appearance or dissimilar appearance. For example, even if I'd been born a genetic male, I would still have had large eyes and long lashes because they're genetic traits. I'd have been a doe-eyed boy instead of a doe-eyed girl. I'd still also be short. Perhaps not 5'4" short, but likely under 6' all the same because people on both sides of my family run short and slender(my aunt is 4'11" and built like a bird!) I'd also still have an ectomorphic build because that wouldn't change just because I happened to have an XY rather than an XX.
So, in short, you could just naturally have an effeminate look like myself. There are a lot of guys who are more 'pretty' than 'rugged'. Some of us are born to be Elijah Wood rather than Clint Eastwood.
Well I guess I missed that you are genetically male. Not sure how but oh well. First of all, it's still possible to have might have some condition, that doesn't allow you to process T as well. There are lots of people who do not process it at the same rate. Your high estrogen levels indicate *somethign*. You probably need to find an endocrinologist vs a surgeon, as mid 20s is not too late for this sort of thing.
Also there is a HUGE range on what is acceptable or male enough. If you look at movie stars (as one class of people) you see guys who are VERY brawny and he man looking and others who are soft and more androgynous. All of which falls in the range of "normal".
OTOH, you might take these labs to an endocrinologist, as you may have a treatable condition. As you see from people posting here (check out "before" and "after") none of us guys have had facial surgery, but T has a (lesser) or greater) effect. Other things are just stuff like hair cut, glasses (squared versus) round, taking out earrings, etc. Some people LIKE this stuff regardless of what it might do to feminize someone, but if you are really concerned you might look into this. Also if you post pictures people might have suggestions. I personally thing your concerns are valid, but not sure that surgery should be your first consideration. It is painful and highly $$$.
--Jay
I have to admit that I am a little annoyed that you did not tell us at the beginning that you are genetically male. People put energy into responding based on the assumption that you were genetically female and were not yet on testosterone.
It wasn't an oversight, you intentionally did not tell us. You probably were worried people wouldn't respond to you if you were honest about who you were. You're wrong. People would have.
The answer is easy. Go to an endocrinologist. If you don't like what they have to say, find another one who will respond to your concerns.
Quote from: Dani20 on April 20, 2014, 02:36:39 PM
Colleen♡Callie I appreciate your help.
I need to say I'm not a transgender, I'm actually a male. Why did I post on this forum? because I thought the people here will have an idea about my OP question, after all this is a FtM trans forum.
I lack masculinity and I have occasionally been told that I can pass as a girl. I'm very androgynous, not 100% but like 70%-80% androgynous, female like skin, height, eyes, skull, hands and arms also my bone density is bellow average, It's hard for me to gain lean body mass.
It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me! ^-^ people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
The thing is I'm 24 years old and I got my hormones levels tested last year:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.org%2F3nzu2a0ox%2FUntitled.jpg&hash=9641b3fce865e3cc85576831c1530d48a11c9e23)
my T and E were always high, about in the same level. In this blood test the E was higher then normal so I went to the endocrinologist and told her about my androgenic worries and I wanted her to prescribe me medications that will lower my E / increase my T or both, she refused and told me that the high E results are in the standard deviation and that I'm healthy that I had a proper puberty and I don't need anything.
So why do I look androgynous if I have high T? Will my jaw and brow-ridge pop out in the next 5 years? Is my body not fully receptive to T? Do I have some kind of undiagnosed syndrome?
This is why I doubted you at the beginning.
Thanks you all for the advises, I didn't mean to annoy you or anything I just didn't think it's something worse mentioning, I asked about surgeries I didn't have an idea that the replies will be about hormones.
Anyway Colleen♡Callie's info informed me and helped other users too.
I'm aware that some men have a combination of feminine and masculine features and others have only masculine features, however those with the combination still have SOME bone growth and dimorphic features, you will very rarely see someone, let alone celebrities that has 0 dimorphism.
Well I will take you advice and will do the blood work again and go to a different endocrinologist, I really hope that this will be solved without surgery, it's really frustrating to be born a man without properly developing into one.. knowing that I actually have high T in me...
Anyway I guess that if the doctors will have no answers then my best bet will be a surgeon that does FFS right? If he is good at removing the bones he should an idea on how to add them?
About photos:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs13.postimg.org%2Fuh35buptz%2FIMG_0351.jpg&hash=c84f29e56736757dbda15c32d4e3c92d71d32e36)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.org%2Fgyw9t6wod%2FIMG_0313.jpg&hash=0a3c27b0b80c6929d3079ae7ae54573d91977cfa)
I blurred my eyes, but they are feminine looking. Also I had a badly done rhinoplasty which was a big mistake that made me more feminine I will have to do a second one to fix it..
In all honesty your face looks fine to me. The features aren't super strong and chiseled, but they aren't weak and don't look feminine to me.
You posted on a board for trans men (people who are transitioning to male) about facial masculinization surgery and didn't think people would reply assuming you to be a trans man and advising you to give hormones more of a shot? That's kind of bewildering.
It's actually not uncommon for people that aren't as receptive to testosterone to have high levels, because the testosterone is being produced at a normal rate, but being absorbed at a lower rate. People with AIS have high high levels of T, because they are producing it fine, and not absorbing it at all, or to a much lesser extent.
Given that you are genetically male, and have high T levels, it may be a case of not being overly receptive to T. Not to the degree of having a condition like AIS. Even without a condition, it's still as scale on how predisposed your are to absorb Testosterone. I still would talk to a endo first, as there might be forms of male hrt that are more effectively absorbed? I'm not that knowledgeable on variations of HRT for men and FtM. But I know on the MtF side there are a number of various types that all work slightly differently.
However, yeah. It would have been a bit easier to respond knowing you were born male to begin with, as my answers and a lot of others here were building responses on the assumption you were an FtM looking to transition and appear male.
Well I don't think you look like some sort super macho guy, but you are certainly in the realm of guys that I see around all the time--cis friends of mine and acquaintances. I don't know why it's an issue. Do a google image search of these guys for instance. These guys are known public figures in different fields (they are all AFAIK straight men): Zak George, Malcolm Gladwell, Sam Killerman, Jared Leto, etc.
High T can turn into estrogen. That's in the range of possibility, but you need an endocrinologist for that, as there may be a reason.
I agree with others here that telling the truth would have been nice. It was a little strange that you wouldn't do that.
BTW, much harder to ADD bone than subtract it. They do it with various special situations, like babies born with birth defects. Not sure what they put in.
--Jay
Add bone? I don't think that would be done actually. Possibly silicon implants. I know they can do things like cheek implants and chin (I think) implants. Silicon of course and not bone. I'm not entirely sure plastic surgeons would do something like bone implants. Someone can come along and correct me if I'm wrong.
I think the others who replied are more likely correct. Excess T converts to E. Too high T = feminine features, even in cismales. Look at body builders who abuse T for examples of this. They aren't using E or other drugs to feminize themselves yet they grow boobs. Go see an endocrinologist that specializes in hormones. Heck go see an endocrinologist that treats trans patients if you can find one. They might have a better idea of how to go about treating any potential hormone imbalance you may have.
Btw to me you look like an average young man to me. Maybe younger than your age depending on how old you are but I don't think anyone would ever ma'am or miss you even if you shaved.
Quote from: Sebryn on April 22, 2014, 01:23:04 AM
Add bone? I don't think that would be done actually. Possibly silicon implants. I know they can do things like cheek implants and chin (I think) implants. Silicon of course and not bone. I'm not entirely sure plastic surgeons would do something like bone implants. Someone can come along and correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, I think they'd need to use something else for the bone, not actual bone.
--Jay
Quote from: Dani20 on April 21, 2014, 09:29:47 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs13.postimg.org%2Fuh35buptz%2FIMG_0351.jpg&hash=c84f29e56736757dbda15c32d4e3c92d71d32e36)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.org%2Fgyw9t6wod%2FIMG_0313.jpg&hash=0a3c27b0b80c6929d3079ae7ae54573d91977cfa)
I blurred my eyes, but they are feminine looking. Also I had a badly done rhinoplasty which was a big mistake that made me more feminine I will have to do a second one to fix it..
You pass entirely. I don't get why this thread is necessary and I think you need to research more on how impactful hormones can be on the human body. There are some biological factors, such as bone structure, that will change subtly over time. If you're really still too insecure with yourself and feel aesthetically misrepresented after at least five years of being on hormones knowing you have regular to high levels in accordance with your biological age, then perhaps it's a serious concern...but for some reason, I don't think that would be the case.
My brow ridge is definitely more prominent than when I started HRT. Do most men in your family look as masculine as the man on the far right? You have to consider that if you're comparing yourself to someone who is in their mid-30s, assuming they don't have a hormonal disorder, they've had normal levels of masculinizing hormones in their body for at least a decade longer than you. As many are saying, just give it time.
Quote from: supremecatoverlord on April 22, 2014, 06:59:55 PM
You pass entirely. I don't get why this thread is necessary and I think you need to research more on how impactful hormones can be on the human body. There are some biological factors, such as bone structure, that will change subtly over time. If you're really still too insecure with yourself and feel aesthetically misrepresented after at least five years of being on hormones knowing you have regular to high levels in accordance with your biological age, then perhaps it's a serious concern...but for some reason, I don't think that would be the case.
My brow ridge is definitely more prominent than when I started HRT. Do most men in your family look as masculine as the man on the far right? You have to consider that if you're comparing yourself to someone who is in their mid-30s, assuming they don't have a hormonal disorder, they've had normal levels of masculinizing hormones in their body for at least a decade longer than you. As many are saying, just give it time.
Dani is actually genetically male. He shared this with us on post #22.
Quote from: Brett on April 22, 2014, 09:32:24 PM
Dani is actually genetically male. He shared this with us on post #22.
Ah, I must've missed that and wasn't expecting someone cisgendered to be posting on a forum about a surgery that effects next to none of the men on a hormone regimen. *scratches head*
Welp!
Quote from: supremecatoverlord on April 22, 2014, 10:05:50 PM
Ah, I must've missed that and wasn't expecting someone cisgendered to be posting on a forum about a surgery that effects next to none of the men on a hormone regimen. *scratches head*
Welp!
:laugh:
I made an appointment with an endo that has 10 years experience with trans, I hope that she will be able to help and if yes that I didn't miss the train because I'll be 24 soon..
I once read that there are around 1000 different kinds of anabolic steroids that body builders cycle between them so that kinda give me hope.
Well thank you guys for the encouraging comments and the help.
@Colleen♡Callie , Do you have an idea if there might be a connection between HGH and IGF levels / receptiveness to the subject of discussion?
I don't foresee an endo prescribing you or helping you get hormones because you feel your face is not masculine enough.
I'm not that versed in hormone levels and causes for them to feel comfortable to say with any certainty. There may be a large number of reasons for high levels that I am not aware of or have missed. As such, I definitely suggest you ask and discuss the questions you have with the endo, who has a medical degree and specialized training specific to hormones and hormone levels.
From what I do know however, common reasons for high hormone levels are 1)the hormones are being produced at a very high rate, either naturally or due to some abnormal cause that is causing the glands to work excessively in producing the hormone. 2) normal range of production with a low receptivity of the hormone. As the body isn't highly receptive to the hormone, it accumulates and sits leading to a high concentration floating around waiting to be received, discarded or converted to something else.
The same goes for the reverse with low levels. 1) Producing the hormones at a much lower rate, or 2) being very receptive to hormone that hormone levels in the blood tend to be on the lower end.
A person can be highly receptive to hormones naturally, or have a naturally low receptivity. There are a literally a number of other reasons that can account for hormone levels though. And beyond that, any relationship or connection between the two would be much better answered by the endo on this.
You should also be cautious and carefully consider, and discuss fully what steroids or androgens you should take. As many androgens will eventually convert into estrogen if they don't bind, if you are naturally less receptive to them, taking steroids could have a feminizing effect rather than a masculinizing effect. I offer this not to discourage you, but rather to point out a possible risk and allow you to better discuss with your endo and make an informed decision.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on April 23, 2014, 11:32:33 AM
I don't foresee an endo prescribing you or helping you get hormones because you feel your face is not masculine enough.
Possibly not. But that's not exactly why we've suggested he sees the endo. He has concerns about himself and his hormone levels, which an endo can address and answer. If there is a treatable reason, the endo will be able to help, and if there isn't, he'll at least have the answers as to what is going on. Only an endo can say for sure and give as much help as is possible.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on April 23, 2014, 11:32:33 AM
I don't foresee an endo prescribing you or helping you get hormones because you feel your face is not masculine enough.
Given that testosterone has risks, I'd guess you're right. It's unlikely if there is NOTHING else going on. I am guessing there may be, but I might be wrong. If there are other factors, a doctor might do it just because a condition exists. But getting in the door, you need to have something else going on.
It's unlikely an ethical plastic surgeon (they aren't all so ethical) will do plastic surgery on what is a normal male face either.
Changing haircuts and dress is cheap and easy.
Self acceptance is difficult but in the end it is the most powerful thing.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on April 23, 2014, 02:25:58 PMIt's unlikely an ethical plastic surgeon (they aren't all so ethical) will do plastic surgery on what is a normal male face either.
I disagree. Plastic surgeons aren't out there making money on "abnormal" people. They're making money from people who see something wrong with their features and want to correct it. If every "normal-looking" person who went to a plastic surgeon was turned away for looking too "normal", then there'd be no work the surgeons.
Ethical. An ethetical cosmetic surgeon won't.
The unethical ones will.
Well, If I were a cis guy I would consider going to a plastic surgeon to make my chin look more manly. It doesn't look girly now, but it's weak and I think most men would rather have a defined chin because it looks nicer.
You don't have to be an unethical plastic surgeon to help someone correct a trait they don't see as attractive as long as it doesn't affect the health or overall well-being of the patient.
Quote from: ZombieDog on April 23, 2014, 08:52:04 PMYou don't have to be an unethical plastic surgeon to help someone correct a trait they don't see as attractive as long as it doesn't affect the health or overall well-being of the patient.
My point exactly. What does ethics have to do with it? People plump their lips because they think they're too "thin"; they pump up their boobs because they think they're too "small"; they inject botox into their wrinkled faces because they want to look young. 99% of these people are "normal-looking" to the outside world, but to themselves they have flaws and that's what plastic surgeons take into account - not their own feelings or "ethics" about how the person looks.
Unless it was something quite severe that a person wanted done, I don't see things like masculinisation surgery to be out of the question or unethical at all. Implanting demon horns into your head? Implanting diamonds into the whites of your eyes? Now that...sure.
Ethics: Well, perhaps I don't see what you can do with a perfectly normal face to make it more "masculine". If it were a matter of a nose job or something simple, that's one thing. Most plastic surgery is somewhat of a boob job, nose job, and here and there some more serious procedure.
Perhaps I lack the "imagination" of a more imaginative surgeon that could see something there that i don't. I see a normal male, though not super hunkish, face. If someone had to stick silicone "bones" or take off bits of other body parts to construct a new face, I consider that outside the usual type of plastic surgery practice, when perhaps the guy needs therapy. But I could be wrong here. And perhaps "ethics" is the wrong term.
--Jay
If eventually I will take the plastic surgery path this is what I have in mind:
Brow-ridge augmentation + Revision rhinoplasty:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.postimg.org%2Fhlbwky43d%2Fcombined_before_before_DSC_04241.jpg&hash=6b282a0f4d713f2137335d6472914b17b57414f6)
Brow-ridge augmentation + Revision rhinoplasty + Jaw angle implants:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.org%2F4av2gsycn%2Fcombined_before_before_DSC_0424.jpg&hash=6adc00eae276ef8efce67c72937c83282fba270e)
I think your forehead and jaw looks best as it is now.
Quote from: Alexthecat on April 24, 2014, 08:58:47 AM
I think your forehead and jaw looks best as it is now.
I agree. I lot of people look better left alone. But they probably would do what he wants, might cost a small arm and leg, though I don't think literally.
--Jay
Dani,
I think you look good/masculine the way you are right now. I don't know how young you are, but a person's face continues to masculinize over their lifespan.
An ethical facial plastic surgeon certainly will do cosmetic work. But they will also consider the mental status of the patient and make sure the patient has realistic expectations. I used to work with some excellent facial plastic surgeons. In addition to their non-cosmetic patients, they had many patients seeking cosmetic work, including men.
Quote from: MacG on April 25, 2014, 12:51:16 PM
An ethical facial plastic surgeon certainly will do cosmetic work. But they will also consider the mental status of the patient and make sure the patient has realistic expectations. I used to work with some excellent facial plastic surgeons. In addition to their non-cosmetic patients, they had many patients seeking cosmetic work, including men.
Yeah I had no idea that he wanted, what I would gather is not a major procedure (would be very painful though). It seems in a typical range of cosmetic work. Even though, well I think he looks "normal" the way he is, but i gather that wouldn't matter.
--Jay
Whether it was intentional or not (yeah right), I feel lied to with this post from a cis male.
IMHO this isn't relevant here at all. What you want is typical cosmetic surgery; you want some off the shelf ideal. If you want this, see a plastic surgeon. It's not FTM related. I wouldn't have bothered responding to this if I'd known the real story.
Quote from: Dani20 on April 24, 2014, 07:48:48 AM
Brow-ridge augmentation + Revision rhinoplasty + Jaw angle implants:
Honestly, your "after" brow looks very exaggerated to me, almost unnaturally so. I think your problem may lie not in your appearance, but in your negative perception of yourself. I'd be worried that, much like someone with anorexia or body dysmorphic disorder, you may never be perfectly satisfied with your face no matter how many surgeries you have. It would probably be worthwhile to discuss this with a therapist before you go under the knife again.
Dani, other than your nose, you can get the results you want by building muscle and losing some fat. The only reason your features look "soft" is because you seem to be on the husky side. I'm husky myself, but I like the way I look.
Quote from: BrotherBen on April 26, 2014, 10:14:02 AM
Honestly, your "after" brow looks very exaggerated to me, almost unnaturally so. I think your problem may lie not in your appearance, but in your negative perception of yourself. I'd be worried that, much like someone with anorexia or body dysmorphic disorder, you may never be perfectly satisfied with your face no matter how many surgeries you have. It would probably be worthwhile to discuss this with a therapist before you go under the knife again.
He hasn't had surgery. I think he just used photoshop or sumthin to show what he wanted to get done.
Quote from: Dani20 on April 24, 2014, 07:48:48 AM
If eventually I will take the plastic surgery path this is what I have in mind:
Quote from: Ruthven on April 26, 2014, 09:24:00 PM
He hasn't had surgery. I think he just used photoshop or sumthin to show what he wanted to get done.
Actually he has had a rhinoplasty already if you read early posts from the OP. He is unhappy with the results (his current nose I believe) from the first surgery.
Quote from: Sebryn on April 26, 2014, 09:42:09 PM
Actually he has had a rhinoplasty already if you read early posts from the OP. He is unhappy with the results (his current nose I believe) from the first surgery.
Oh yeah! I forgot about that cuz i read it a few days ago. Thanks for correctin me! Sorry BrotherBen.