Another list of questions, I'm afraid. Sorry!
1 - Is the general consensus still that people with dark beard hair and light skin should go laser first, then finish off with electrolysis?
2 - DIY jobs. Bad idea, or have some home lasers reached the point where they work well (with patience and effort)? And if home lasers are pretty decent these days, any product recommendations? Obvious scams to avoid?
3 - Cost. Can't find prices anywhere, which I guess is understandable as each case is different. But generally, what would laser removal cost? Far cheaper than 100% electrolysis?
4 - Lasers...permanent removal, or does the hair come back? The older materials I read on this seem to be conflicting.
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed? Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?
6 - Any regrets in beard removal? I'm guessing I won't have any, because shaving is a pain and I've never been a beardy type person. I won't cry too many tears over never shaving again.
7 - When to do it: once HRT has started, or wait a while until some feminization has occurred?
Thanks in advance!
Personally, I'm going the full electrolysis route as my skin tone is really light and most of my facial hair is reddish with quite a bit of gray too. I'm not sure that, for me, laser would be a good choice.
I've read and heard that laser isn't guaranteed permanent, another reason I decided against it but many people do go this route with a lot of success so I think it's more of a ymmv kind of thing.
I would think laser would be cheaper than electrolysis..... If removal ends up being permanent. Again that's just my personal opinion since I haven't tried laser or checked rates for it.
As far as when to start, at least for me I would say today....yesterday if possible! It's pretty slow going for me since each hair has to be zapped and removed individually... I know I'm way beyond ready to be done with this phase of transition!
Ok, the easy answer is to do this as soon as possible, if you are pre HRT, do it now. Forget the DIY kits, they are designed mainly for cis women. We have different skin and hair and they are, simply put, rubbish. Our hairs are buried a lot deeper and we need the relevant more powerful without burning treatment for this reason. You need to seek the advice of a practitioner that knows male skin and hair and the most effective way to get rid of your beard. Confidence wise, you will not believe how much it helps to 'pass' (as long as you have worked all the other bits out too). Beard removal is high up on the list to get done. It does not matter how much FFS, HRT or GRS, boobs you have had done, if you have a face full of hair, you are going to look like a man with makeup or a woman with a blue face and too much make up and alarm bells will start to ring.
It is going to cost a lot.
Passing as a guy can be done. As you probably know, just because you removed your facial hair does not make you a woman without all the other traits to go with it. You will just look like a clean shaven man pre HRT if that is what you intend to pass as.
For dark hair and light skin, laser first, then electro to tidy up all the light hairs.
Check out the hair growth cycle to see why some hairs come back after a while. It takes a long time to treat the whole face. I have been told by my practitioner that if you put a fingertip on your face, hiding under it is something like 500 odd hair folicles. Very dense. Eventually it all gets zapped.
If you intend to do DIY, buy one of the professional machines for the job. Be prepared to pay a lot of money though. If the DIY things like Tria and No No did the job, the professionals would cut their overheads instead of spending tens of thousands on the machines that actually work.
Unless you like the biblical, bearded lady or the George Michael look, what is the point in a beard ? I only buy a rasor to shave below the neck now and HRT will soon take care of that. No regrets here.
Hope that helps.
Nikki
Thanks for creating a new thread on this. I am not 100% on transitioning, but I made a list of dual purpose goals/things I can start now and live with if I decide to stay my disgusting guy self. It sounds like beard and voice are two long processes, so that is where I am starting. I hope people provide a lot of input because I want to make the best choices as I am sure you do as well. I have my first electrolysis appt next tues, but have just been told to do laser first and then electrolysis by a fellow TG. I want best results even if it costs more and was told that electrolysis provides a better result with regard to a smoother skin appearance because the hair follicle is completely destroyed. It sounds reasonable, but could just be bs. I don't want to waste money and time if it has the same results as laser. Does anyone know?
1 - Is the general consensus still that people with dark beard hair and light skin should go laser first, then finish off with electrolysis?
That's the general consensus, but it varies for every person.
2 - DIY jobs.
I'm lazy so I wouldn't do this myself, also I'd be scared I'd end up scarring myself or worse.
3 - Cost.
100% laser will be quicker and cheaper. I tried it but my beard is too light so electrolysis it is!
4 - Lasers...permanent removal, or does the hair come back?
Once the follicle is dead it won't go zombie on you, but if the follicle is in sleep mode during treatment it won't be zapped so that probably makes it seem like hair is coming back even after treatment.
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed? Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?
There won't be any tell tale shadow but a lot of it will depend on your other features, hair, clothes, etc. I'm personally looking forward to wearing less make up regardless.
6 - Any regrets in beard removal? I'm guessing I won't have any, because shaving is a pain...
If it's pain you're looking to avoid then wait until you try electrolysis or laser!! ;) But no, no regret from me!
7 - When to do it: once HRT has started, or wait a while until some feminization has occurred?
Start ASAP! Either process will take months, electrolysis even longer, best to get a good head start!
I did laser first, intending to finish up with electro... but didn't need to. Laser took care of all but half a dozen hairs, and those I just pluck, like a cis woman (seriously, my mom has more facial hairs than I do, now).
Laser *is* permanent for the hair follicles that it kills, but the reason it's not guaranteed permanent except as "hair reduction" is that it does NOT kill every single one of the hair follicles the way electro will. However, it's vastly cheaper and faster - I paid $1000 and was done in six months, and I hear prices of like 1/5th that from some people now - and if you're really lucky you won't need anything else. Even if you do, better to have 95% of it taken care of fast and cheap, right?
The other thing to keep in mind is that HRT makes skin thinner and more translucent, which unfortunately means beard shadow will show through a lot more. I had a *terrible* time with having a shadow even when my face was shaved so close it felt perfectly baby smooth; the hairs UNDER the skin were still showing through. I had to cake on foundation until the laser started really making a dent.
I'll chip in!
1. That is the consensus. I did but was probably marginal in terms of suitability.
2. No DIY - afraid of stuffing it up. Other places, yeah. Face? No. Remember though a poor operator can damage you too.
3. Cost? Laser is cheaper. I have spent a large amount on electro (not a fortune but...). I am older and the hair a lot more mature.
4. Not sure about effectiveness of laser. It seems to work really well for some and fail with others. As I am older, much of my beard was grey, white, red and brown so Laser wasn't going to work well anyway.
5. Depends! Helpful, I know!
6. No regrets ever! I did spend many hours in pain thinking that I must really want this. The answer was always YES! Hated having to shave and LOVE not having to do a thing. Oh, my skin care routine takes much longer so I haven't saved any time in the morning at all!!
7. Start yesterday. There is no reason to delay starting. This is one of the really big transitioning things you do for yourself.
Thank you all so much for those detailed replies! Extremely helpful.
Time to start looking for a laser clinic to get the beard gone. An early Christmas present to myself.
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 24, 2014, 05:50:54 PM
1 - Is the general consensus still that people with dark beard hair and light skin should go laser first, then finish off with electrolysis?
That's the general consensus, but it varies for every person.
2 - DIY jobs.
I'm lazy so I wouldn't do this myself, also I'd be scared I'd end up scarring myself or worse.
3 - Cost.
100% laser will be quicker and cheaper. I tried it but my beard is too light so electrolysis it is!
4 - Lasers...permanent removal, or does the hair come back?
Once the follicle is dead it won't go zombie on you, but if the follicle is in sleep mode during treatment it won't be zapped so that probably makes it seem like hair is coming back even after treatment.
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed? Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?
There won't be any tell tale shadow but a lot of it will depend on your other features, hair, clothes, etc. I'm personally looking forward to wearing less make up regardless.
6 - Any regrets in beard removal? I'm guessing I won't have any, because shaving is a pain...
If it's pain you're looking to avoid then wait until you try electrolysis or laser!! ;) But no, no regret from me!
7 - When to do it: once HRT has started, or wait a while until some feminization has occurred?
Start ASAP! Either process will take months, electrolysis even longer, best to get a good head start!
Lazy answer but agree with Grace on all points but wish to add that:
- Results depend on the skill of the electrologist
- Having tried thermolysis, blend and galvanic, only galvanic has produced permanent hair removal
- IPL laser works on dark hair and light skin. Start with this but plan on finishing with galvanic. The side benefit is laser will raise your pain threshold and prepare you for the 'discomfort' of galvanic
- There are many urban myths ....
Aisla
Quote from: __________ on April 24, 2014, 07:12:18 PM
Thank you all so much for those detailed replies! Extremely helpful.
Time to start looking for a laser clinic to get the beard gone. An early Christmas present to myself.
If you are in Sydney, then I am sure that either Grace and I can give you a great recommendation. PM either of us.
Aisla
Quote from: __________ on April 24, 2014, 11:53:15 AM
Another list of questions, I'm afraid. Sorry!
1 - Is the general consensus still that people with dark beard hair and light skin should go laser first, then finish off with electrolysis?
2 - DIY jobs. Bad idea, or have some home lasers reached the point where they work well (with patience and effort)? And if home lasers are pretty decent these days, any product recommendations? Obvious scams to avoid?
3 - Cost. Can't find prices anywhere, which I guess is understandable as each case is different. But generally, what would laser removal cost? Far cheaper than 100% electrolysis?
4 - Lasers...permanent removal, or does the hair come back? The older materials I read on this seem to be conflicting.
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed? Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?
6 - Any regrets in beard removal? I'm guessing I won't have any, because shaving is a pain and I've never been a beardy type person. I won't cry too many tears over never shaving again.
7 - When to do it: once HRT has started, or wait a while until some feminization has occurred?
Thanks in advance!
1. Yeah, it's best to start with laser with that skin and hair type. You'll be saving lots of money and getting good results.
2. I'm sure they work to an extent, but if you want permanent removal or really good results, just go with laser or electrolysis. I've look into those products and I'm not impressed. Just my take. I know other people will disagree, but I think the investment in laser is much better and more worth it.
3. Laser is cheaper from what I've heard, but price really varies by location, practice you use, and the method. There is no way of estimating it. I pay 180 dollars every month.
4. I hear different things. My tech told me that she can guarantee a 95 percent permanent reduction and removal. The rest should be taken care of with yearly touchups.
5. That depends on your face. I find passing as a normal guy very hard, but yet still don't feel I pass as a girl. I'm like this andro in between person, and would warn you that most people go through this phase at some point.
6. No, though I'm still in the middle of the process. I only regret the loss or money.
7. I would get this done asap. I takes time and is a process. Once you get to the stage where you pass, it would be nice if you didn't have the beard shadow to deal with. The earlier you start, the less you will have to deal with it.
All of the following are just my opinion. One thing I will answer that you didn't ask is the following. Yes, laser hurts like a bitch and you will cry and start whining in a high pitch voice if you are like me, lol.
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed? Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?
OK - more effort this time.
- You will look younger.
- If on low or normal dose hrt your skin will look better
- Most people do not look closely. Unless you provide other gender clues eg feminised brows, an androgynous or feminine hair style or clothing then most people will conclude that you are well rested, have had a vacation or have had some work done
- Change will be most visible to those who see you infrequently, others will not notice any change
- The hrt will continue to soften your facial characteristics so over time you will appear more andro but using male cues will not usually cause you to be gendered female but ymmv.
Aisla
Regarding the DIY thing...
I've been using a home laser treatment since late October. It's clearing my body really nicely, and I was pretty hairy.
On my face it's taking more time, but I'm still quite happy with the progress. I'm planning on another couple of years before I go full time, so I'll take things as far as I can with the home kit and then do eletrolysis on the white hairs. I do a treatment every 14-16 days, shedding begins about week after each, and once it stops I zap it again.
This first picture is back before I started anything :D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fj3kw8md.jpg&hash=c1a1378abece6b1b65adc8f18619a821fe120547)
This is after 2 months of home laser:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F00Ut9HD.jpg&hash=198d80d99b4309443e3d221522d8f00f8a82fb01)
And this is last week:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYXDgFeI.jpg&hash=758990fd1c2af6c25caa58b558ee8a954036992f)
I guess it depends how much time you have. Professional is faster, but I'm still willing to wait on this.
1. I've got dark beard, light skin, every session removes about 30% of my hairs, as such it follows the law of diminishing returns but the nice thing is that they space it apart to catch each set of hairs during the growth cycle so ,, it's pretty effective, expect 6-10 sessions for 95% plus removal.
2. Unless you buy a $10.000 machine probably not going to work well, with the amount of pain and possible skin damage I would not do it myself or have anyone other than a medical professional doing it.
3. I pay $200 per session here in Canada, that's a pretty good price, I've seen prices up to $1200 per session but that's B.S.
4. Permanent for any hair that's in a growth state when it's sapped, laser boils the follicle, there's no coming back from that.
5. Even after the first session people will think you are a lot younger, but without other clues still male.
6. Laser on facial hurts pretty bad, not like kidney stones or herniated disk but probably a 7 out of 10, no regrets, co-workers envy me when I tell them I will never have to shave again and G.F. loves that there is no more stubble to sting.
7. ASAP
I sought out laser first and foremost because the coarseness of my beard hair was wrecking my skin through constant irritation, ingrowns and sensitivity to shaving. Laser will at the very least reduce the coarseness of the hairs but will usually permanently kill off the dark ones eventually. Reducing the coarseness will substantially reduce the intensity required per-hair during electrolysis and reduce the amount of electrolysis needed so it makes sense to take laser as far as it will get you and then move on to electrolysis.
In addition to the direct and dramatic improvement in the condition of my skin from the hair reduction, one side benefit from the laser is skin rejuvenation. Laser is often used for skin renewal alone so you are getting a bonus from the hair treatment. The difference in my skin is already like night and day compared to before. It is also much more even and pleasant-looking in color tone. Once I get through with the electrolysis and HRT continues to create change my skin is going to be smooth as a baby's bottom!
This was all very informative. Thank you.
Can someone answer:
Usually how much growth is required before starting laser treatment? Or just appear with a clean shave?
When the beard is gone, does vellus hairs (peach fuzz) grow in the area? (which would appear more natural)
How did you manage your side burns? Cutoff point? Shape?
Is the laser dangerous to dark moles or beauty marks?
Do they make you wear goggles?
Would an oral anesthetic like maximum strength anbesol applied to the skin help with some of the in-treatment pain?
Evelyn quick answers:
Usually how much growth is required before starting laser treatment? Or just appear with a clean shave? I normally cease shaving 2 to 3 days prior to laser (same as Electro)
When the beard is gone, does vellus hairs (peach fuzz) grow in the area? (which would appear more natural). I have not got to this stage but this is my understanding. New follicles rather than regrowth
How did you manage your side burns? Cutoff point? Shape? Aiming to thin just below the top of the ear and taper. Avoid the square cut. The idea is to indicate that the hair is fine and not an established side burn
Is the laser dangerous to dark moles or beauty marks? I have not had any problems but worth checking with your technician
Do they make you wear goggles? Yes
Would an oral anesthetic like maximum strength anbesol applied to the skin help with some of the in-treatment pain?
It could help, as would lygocaine gel or emla cream. You may find that emla is not needed as the pain from ipl is not as bad as galvanic. Its a little like feeling the snap of a rubber band on your skin
Aisla
I would advise against the home remedies, they just don't have the same power. Go to a professional laser hair removal place and let them do it. If you have dark hairs it will make a massive difference in such a short time.
After my first laser it took about 2 weeks then I noticed a massive difference.
Start NOW. It takes time. One session every 4-6 weeks. I started in October and have had 6 sessions so far.
I've also had 5 hours of electrolysis for the remaining blondes and will need plenty more.
Being facial hair free is fantastic
I was told by the laser tech that they prefer a clean shave. There is some vellus hair on my face, but I'm assuming it's *not* the original facial hairs, just the estrogen causing me to develop cis-pattern vellus hair. (Or it was there already. No real way to tell, since shaving off the male facial hair would remove it too.) I had no problems with beauty marks and did wear goggles.
And I left it up to the tech how to do the sideburns - she does treat cis women frequently, so she chose a pattern that she said resembled theirs, and I've been satisfied with it. I think she just sort of thinned out gradually below the hairline, but honestly, I didn't pay enough attention...
Quote from: Evelyn K on April 24, 2014, 11:49:12 PM
This was all very informative. Thank you.
Can someone answer:
Usually how much growth is required before starting laser treatment? Or just appear with a clean shave?
When the beard is gone, does vellus hairs (peach fuzz) grow in the area? (which would appear more natural)
How did you manage your side burns? Cutoff point? Shape?
Is the laser dangerous to dark moles or beauty marks?
Do they make you wear goggles?
Would an oral anesthetic like maximum strength anbesol applied to the skin help with some of the in-treatment pain?
My tech recommends me to come in clean shaven which works as I shave everyday.
I'm still only a few sessions in and don't really let the hair grow in at all. I have noticed patches forming, but I'm obsessive about removing any facial hair.
They go up to my side burn area, but don't actually do that area.
Not sure.
Yes, I always have to wear the protective goggles where I go.
Probably. I've never used it. However, I probably should because I literally cry during my sessions and my tech actually rubbed my hand during one of the really bad sessions, lol. It's not fun.
Quote from: __________ on April 24, 2014, 11:53:15 AM
Another list of questions, I'm afraid. Sorry!
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed? Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?
Personal experience, I look young for my age. 2 years low dose HRT, and no one has ever commented on my lack of beard, and I'm not transitioning.
Quote
6 - Any regrets in beard removal? I'm guessing I won't have any, because shaving is a pain and I've never been a beardy type person. I won't cry too many tears over never shaving again.
None at all! I used to get massive breakouts from shaving - they've all gone. The only vague thing is not being able to chip in on Movember in Australia. Mind you, my beard was that weak that I suspect that some cis-girls from certain ethnic groups probably had more facial hair than I did.
Quote
7 - When to do it: once HRT has started, or wait a while until some feminization has occurred?
Deal with it now. It's a slow process and potentially expensive.
Shave the hair right down because it's most likely going to get fried/melted and potentially absorb too much of the laser energy at the same time if you don't. Length is only required for electrolysis so that they have something to grab with the tweezers. Whether or not your hairs are going to get burned by the laser depends a lot on the machine type and its settings and how dark your hairs are. The people working on my face and neck had a very powerful machine and used it quite 'aggressively' - as much as I could take without generating excessive redness. Remember that either procedure is targeting only the follicle. Anything longer than that isn't going to help the laser target them.
For sideburns I asked them to go as far up as what still looked like beard hair. There is a transition point on me above which the hairs have a different character. It was easy for them to locate the dividing line and the result looks quite natural.
Beard removal is definitely the very first step to consider. I had mine done 4 years ago and had already started HRT at that point which definitely helped with the results.
My tech had removed a few beards before mine but it was the first one she had done on someone on HRT and she was surprised at how quickly the beard disappeared. I had 5 full sessions approximately 6 weeks apart. I now pluck the odd stray hair as it appears.
I have developed what seems to be vellous facial hair, very fine blonde hairs, and havent touched a razor in years, absolute bliss!
Laser for me was inexpensive as opposed to electrolysis and quick as the whole face was treated in one session.
Light sheer diode works alot better than IPL for hair removal, but unfortunately it doesnt work on light or red hair.
I had to be clean shaven but not shave on the day of treatment so the hair follicles could protrude just slightly from the skin.
In terms of pain, short lived bursts as they zap the hairs and it was definitely more intense when the hair was still dense, but on individual hairs almost undetectable. I judge pain in terms of my migraines, a migraine being 10 out of 10, and on that scale, laser is a 2.
I second that home remedies are a joke and dont work, but have to disagree respectfully that laser is a temperary solution.
I had mine done professionally 4 years ago and were speaking of thick, blue beard. Today Im still completely clean with the occasional straggler here and there, but compared to the average woman, I have less dark hair on my face than most of my friends.
Living proof that it does work.
Quote from: Flygirl on April 26, 2014, 02:06:27 AM
I second that home remedies are a joke and dont work, but have to disagree respectfully that laser is a temperary solution.
I had mine done professionally 4 years ago and were speaking of thick, blue beard. Today Im still completely clean with the occasional straggler here and there, but compared to the average woman, I have less dark hair on my face than most of my friends.
Living proof that it does work.
You will find that in time it will begin to resurface, slowly but surely. It may not be as thick, but it will return. It happens slower for some than for others.
Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 01:49:27 AM
Oh my gosh you all are so mis informed, this is why I stopped asking questions on this forum a long time ago.
First of all it is actually laughable that you would think any home laser system would give you permanent hair removal or even reduction on your facial hair. It is simply not possible. Nothing for home use would ever be powerful enough to do much of anything.
ANY lasers will not give you permanent hair removal on the face. Lasers do not permanently remove hair no matter what. They are FDA aaproced for permanent hair reduction. Your facial hair may be totally absent for up to two years, but will most certainly cosmetically reappear within 2-3 years. They also cannot remove blonde, white, grey, or red hair at all.
Electrolysis is the only way to permanently remove your facial hair. Period. That is a fact.
Any other answer you have received is a lie that is being touted to scam you out of your money.
I too started laser over 2 years ago. The hairs on my face are now gone aside from the odd few in the awkward places and white hairs that need electro. Making a blanket statement saying that we are all mis infomed is a bit harsh as I and Flygirl have just proved to ourselves, to some degree, that laser has worked. The other bit of proof that I have is that I had a tattoo removed over 20 years ago with laser. It is the only hairless place on my arm. Coincidence or am I just lucky to have a hairless patch in the shape of a dragon on my arm ?
Home systems, yes, they are pretty much a waste of money if you want long term results, however, a practitioner that knows male skin and hair armed with the very best of the commercial systems WILL in my opinion remove the hair from your face.
I had laser, about 12 - 14 sessions all up in a few countries (USA, EU and Thailand). At this point, I have nothing but vellus hairs on my face, very downy and natural. There are occasionally one or two black whiskers that pop up around my chin or nose, like ciswomen, and I yank them out mercilessly. What my techs told me is that someone NOT on estrogen, ie preHRT, laser will not be permanent because testosterone causes new whisker follicles to form. BUT after SRS and full HRT for a few years, nothing at all has grown back. For me, with dark hair and olive skin, laser has absolutely utterly been permanent. Much quicker and cheaper than electrolysis would have been too. But you HAVE to be on HRT for it to be so. You can get a jump on clearing your face before HRT, but at some point you want to get on it otherwise you'll have to go back every few months.
Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 01:49:27 AM
Oh my gosh you all are so mis informed, this is why I stopped asking questions on this forum a long time ago.
First of all it is actually laughable that you would think any home laser system would give you permanent hair removal or even reduction on your facial hair. It is simply not possible. Nothing for home use would ever be powerful enough to do much of anything.
ANY lasers will not give you permanent hair removal on the face. Lasers do not permanently remove hair no matter what. They are FDA aaproced for permanent hair reduction. Your facial hair may be totally absent for up to two years, but will most certainly cosmetically reappear within 2-3 years. They also cannot remove blonde, white, grey, or red hair at all.
Electrolysis is the only way to permanently remove your facial hair. Period. That is a fact.
Any other answer you have received is a lie that is being touted to scam you out of your money.
I don't think anyone here is trying to scam the op. People are just giving their own experiences. While I agree that home lasers don't work or at least not enough for us, going to a laser salon with a strong enough laser can work. I've been doing it and it's helped me, but I have the right skin tone and hair type. Electroysis would have been a waste of money for me. With laser, I can reduce my hair as best as I can, and will only need an occasional touch up for what is left. I've seen others have results that did it years ago and I'm seeing them on my own face to know that it works.
Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 02:09:56 AM
You will find that in time it will begin to resurface, slowly but surely. It may not be as thick, but it will return. It happens slower for some than for others.
What returns though is reduced by a great deal and usually be dealt with through occasional touchups. Even with the 6 month touchups that I will have to go for, I spent way less on laser than I would have for electrolysis because of my dark hair. They were included in my contract for 3 years. I guess it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.
longhairdon'tcare : Actually, I checked the FDA web site before I posted, and they said *precisely* what I did, albeit in slightly more formal language. A lot of people cite the FDA approval without researching it or understanding what they mean by "reduction."
http://www.fda.gov/radiation-emittingproducts/resourcesforyouradiationemittingproducts/ucm252761.htm
"Several manufacturers received FDA permission to claim, "permanent reduction," NOT "permanent removal" for their lasers. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair. The specific claim granted is "intended to effect stable, long-term, or permanent reduction" through selective targeting of melanin in hair follicles. Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions. The number of hairs regrowing must be stable over time greater than the duration of the complete growth cycle of hair follicles, which varies from four to twelve months according to body location. Permanent hair reduction does not necessarily imply the elimination of all hairs in the treatment area."
Notice that it says that laser WILL PERMANENTLY REDUCE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF HAIRS. It's permanent reduction only because it does not remove *all* hairs but does permanently remove those which are killed, exactly as I said.
Anecdotally, I had laser five years ago with absolutely zero regrowth. Bear in mind that people who are confused about how hair grows can think they're seeing regrowth, too, as dormant hair follicles wake up and produce hairs that were not there to be killed while the treatment was going on; this is why laser recommends several sessions spaced the approximate dormancy period of a hair follicle apart (4-6 weeks).
I also did the math and for what laser cost in my area, I could afford to have it fully redone every 5 years for the next 50 and still not spend 1/10th what electrolysis would cost me, so frankly even if were not permanent (which it has been), I'd be happier to have chosen laser.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 26, 2014, 09:23:33 AM
longhairdon'tcare : Actually, I checked the FDA web site before I posted, and they said *precisely* what I did, albeit in slightly more formal language. A lot of people cite the FDA approval without researching it or understanding what they mean by "reduction."
http://www.fda.gov/radiation-emittingproducts/resourcesforyouradiationemittingproducts/ucm252761.htm
"Several manufacturers received FDA permission to claim, "permanent reduction," NOT "permanent removal" for their lasers. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair. The specific claim granted is "intended to effect stable, long-term, or permanent reduction" through selective targeting of melanin in hair follicles. Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions. The number of hairs regrowing must be stable over time greater than the duration of the complete growth cycle of hair follicles, which varies from four to twelve months according to body location. Permanent hair reduction does not necessarily imply the elimination of all hairs in the treatment area."
Notice that it says that laser WILL PERMANENTLY REDUCE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF HAIRS. It's permanent reduction only because it does not remove *all* hairs but does permanently remove those which are killed, exactly as I said.
Anecdotally, I had laser five years ago with absolutely zero regrowth. Bear in mind that people who are confused about how hair grows can think they're seeing regrowth, too, as dormant hair follicles wake up and produce hairs that were not there to be killed while the treatment was going on; this is why laser recommends several sessions spaced the approximate dormancy period of a hair follicle apart (4-6 weeks).
I also did the math and for what laser cost in my area, I could afford to have it fully redone every 5 years for the next 50 and still not spend 1/10th what electrolysis would cost me, so frankly even if were not permanent (which it has been), I'd be happier to have chosen laser.
First of all that is NOT what permanent reduction means. it means that the hairs that are effected by the laser will regrow.
Second of all you are forgetting one very important fact that throws this whole argument on its back, this study was done on body hair, NOT male facial hair. They are two VERY different things.
You can do whatever you want and believe whatever you want, I am not saying not to do it. All I am saying is expect to go for touch ups for the rest of your life and don't expect permanent hair removal.
Quote from: GendrKweer on April 26, 2014, 07:59:32 AM
I had laser, about 12 - 14 sessions all up in a few countries (USA, EU and Thailand). At this point, I have nothing but vellus hairs on my face, very downy and natural. There are occasionally one or two black whiskers that pop up around my chin or nose, like ciswomen, and I yank them out mercilessly. What my techs told me is that someone NOT on estrogen, ie preHRT, laser will not be permanent because testosterone causes new whisker follicles to form. BUT after SRS and full HRT for a few years, nothing at all has grown back. For me, with dark hair and olive skin, laser has absolutely utterly been permanent. Much quicker and cheaper than electrolysis would have been too. But you HAVE to be on HRT for it to be so. You can get a jump on clearing your face before HRT, but at some point you want to get on it otherwise you'll have to go back every few months.
This is what I mean, your laser tech is not a doctor and cannot make a statement like this. They have no idea how the human body works at all and how hormones effect hair growth. It is silly, a laser technician has NO qualifications to make a general statement like that. Most of the time laser technicians need only minor qualifications to use the laser in the first place, they sometimes have to take a state test and that is it! One could technically become a laser tech off the street!
It also does not matter, facial hair is stimulated by testosterone and DHT. These will always be present in your body no matter what and until they are not there is always a chance that hair can regrow.
You don't even mention what HRT is! Neither did that person most likely.
Is that an anti androgen? Estrogen? Anti DHT medication? One of those? None?
Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 11:48:57 AM
This is what I mean, your laser tech is not a doctor and cannot make a statement like this. They have no idea how the human body works at all and how hormones effect hair growth. It is silly, a laser technician has NO qualifications to make a general statement like that. Most of the time laser technicians need only minor qualifications to use the laser in the first place, they sometimes have to take a state test and that is it! One could technically become a laser tech off the street!
It also does not matter, facial hair is stimulated by testosterone and DHT. These will always be present in your body no matter what and until they are not there is always a chance that hair can regrow.
You don't even mention what HRT is! Neither did that person most likely.
Is that an anti androgen? Estrogen? Anti DHT medication? One of those? None?
Well, mine is a doctor.... really...
"Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions."
Note how that says treated hair does not regrow. I'm confident that I've interpreted it correctly, but either way, I've cited the actual official source and other people can draw their own conclusions. It's not misinformation from *me* at that point.
(I'm also confident that I have cis female levels of T at this point - I'm down to adrenals as a source, just as they are. In fact, since the ovaries produce a little bit of T* as well, I may have *less* than is typical.)
*http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001165.htm
"In healthy women, the ovaries and adrenal glands produce about 40 - 50% of the body's testosterone."
I think that at this point in time, laser hair removal - sorry, reduction - is fairly mature and proven technology. Sure, electrolysis is more effective, but it seems it's also extremely expensive. Since cash and time are not unlimited commodities in my house, it'll be laser first, then electrolysis to remove the stubborn gray hairs.
Surely we're long past the time for questioning the effectiveness of professional laser treatment? I imagine the only people who adamantly claim all laser treatments are a scam are those who own now-failing electrolysis clinics? The debate seems to have lots in common with the Betamax/VHS debate (if that doesn't age me too much); sure, Betamax was technically superior, but VHS was far cheaper and, more importantly, good enough for what most people needed.
My last laser session was about two years ago. I do not shave since I have no facial hair.
For me it was great, I went to a place that specialised in treating women with POCS. I was the first TG they had worked on.
Painful? Yes.
Worthwhile? OMG yes
Permanent? Who can say, see above.
When to start? yesterday.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 26, 2014, 02:11:02 PM
(I'm also confident that I have cis female levels of T at this point - I'm down to adrenals as a source, just as they are. In fact, since the ovaries produce a little bit of T* as well, I may have *less* than is typical.)
*http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001165.htm
"In healthy women, the ovaries and adrenal glands produce about 40 - 50% of the body's testosterone."
I have been castrated and I am a young 21 year old. My T level is low but not as low as a pre menopausal females t levels are. Yours will never be as low either, unless you are taking an anti androgen while you are castrated which is not recommended and is unhealthy. Born males will always produce more T from adrenals than a female will.
All I can really say is that my lab levels disagree. I had T in the middle of the female range [~40 ng/dl] back when I was on estrogen only and pre-op; my post-GRS levels are at the lower end of the female range now [22 ng/dl]. Possibly it's different for a 21-year-old, I don't know, but I and my endocrinologist both believe it's possible for a trans woman to achieve the same T levels or below as a pre-menopausal cis woman. To be fair, I did have such a good reaction to E only that I hit those levels on a dose appropriate for a menopausal cis woman, which means that dose now may yet be equivalent to taking a bit of AA post-op; I have no idea.
In fact, you're the first person I've ever seen say that a trans woman *can't* expect cis levels as a goal post-op.
If we take the female range as 15-70 ng/dl (Mayo clinic data : http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age), the NIH says that post-castration cis men can expect an average of 15 ng/dl. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2725306/ .
Additionally, there is no later rebound of T production.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/72830
"No compensatory adrenal production of testosterone was noted during a 17-month period after orchiectomy." So adrenal production of T remains the same as pre-castration.
Since all that data comes from cis men, I have to assume that trans women can expect *at least* as good an outcome.
I can only go on personal experience. But I'd say at what point do we say it is "permanent"? 2 years post treatment? 5? 10? I'm at least 2 years post and have had ZERO new thick beard hairs come back, except as I said one or two around my chin/mouth EXACTLY like natal women have (which could also be a simple matter of not zapping those hairs on the growth cycle). As far as hair, yes, my face has a lot of hair on it still... all the beard changed to vellus down, which is also exactly cisfemale in appearance. I far prefer having vellus hair as it makes my face feel twice as soft as not having any at all. So by that, no laser did not eliminate my hair. It just turned it into invisible down lol... which is perfect by me. My hormone therapy was spiro and estrogen before my SRS, just estro post SRS two years ago. If you have a good hair/skin color profile, as I did (dark hair/olive - white skin), and have your hormones under control, then there is no reason not to use laser.
My experience is not as positive - laser and hrt certainly reduced my facial hair but I have also required many, many hours of galvanic (104 hours so far with an estimated further 30 hours still required). I had little success with blend even though I did appear to achieve full clearance after 66 hours.
I wish that laser had been more effective. It is certainly relatively fast, painless and economical. While laser clearly helped, my beard was thick and I had many white hairs (60 to 70% of my facial hair).
Aisla
Ah, white hairs as I understand it would be entirely untouched by laser, so yeah... I'm sorry! :(
Just a thought, would it be possible to dye those white hairs then use lazer, or doesn't the dye penetrate enough?
Dee
(Too much grey!)
Quote from: Dee Marshall on April 27, 2014, 11:15:50 AM
Just a thought, would it be possible to dye those white hairs then use lazer, or doesn't the dye penetrate enough?
Dee
(Too much grey!)
Has anyone ever tried to dye their hair black to get laser? I've also read that its good to get waxed and let your hair grow back in before getting laser.
The science-lover in me wants to do an AB test, but the fashionista in me doesn't want to risk half a face with a 5 oclock shadow. ??? Leg test maybe?
Quote from: Dee Marshall on April 27, 2014, 11:15:50 AM
Just a thought, would it be possible to dye those white hairs then use lazer, or doesn't the dye penetrate enough?
Dee
(Too much grey!)
I think that it wouldn't help because you need to destroy follicles by generating excessive heat there by light absorption. And by applying externally dye it won't penetrate in the root of the hair.
There is something like this, it starts with an 'm'.
Although Sarah I bet you are right, it's probably not super effective... but I would imagine some of the heat would travel down the hair shaft to the root... It would also heat up the skin a lot!