QuoteLast night, a horrific scene played out at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary as prison officials attempted to carry out the first of what was supposed to have been a double execution.
At 6:23 p.m., the execution began for Clayton Lockett, convicted in 1999 of killing 19-year-old Stephanie Neiman.
Five minutes after a cocktail of lethal drugs was injected, Lockett began shivering, breathing deep, blinking, and gritting his teeth. Seven minutes into the execution, Lockett alerted prison officials that he was still conscious. Ten minutes into the execution, prison officials announced that he was finally unconscious. Thirteen minutes in, Lockett moved his head from side to side and then lifted it off of the bed. Fifteen minutes in, Lockett was mumbling, breathing heavily, and appeared to be struggling. Sixteen minutes in, Lockett said "man" out loud, and tried to get up. Following this, a female prison official told horrified eyewitnesses, "We are going to lower the blinds temporarily." The blinds were never lifted.
http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/30/oklahomas-horrific-botched-execution-cou
As if I needed another reason to end this barbaric, ineffective, and costly practice.
The fact that the State feels it needs any secrecy surrounding it's execution program wails in decibels.
I wonder who goes to jail and gets executed when the State perpetrates the very crime it is out to "punish"?
-AM
If you are going to kill someone as retribution/punishment/and deterrent, it should be as horrible as possible so you maximize it's effectiveness. Should just go back to hanging. works... most of the time, very cost effective (reuse the rope), and will be much more of a deterrent than "humane" methods.
Quoteit should be as horrible as possible so you maximize it's effectiveness
Yes because our judicial system is perfect and never wrongly convicts. Because the 8th Amendment should be blithely ignored so we can wet ourselves in the sweet dream of grotesque death, because capital punishment has done so wonderfully in preventing the crimes that warrant it.
-AM
That is a whole different kettle of fish. Notice I said "IF" you are going to permit state sponsored murder, we might as well get your money's worth.
I know this is a highly emotive topic - so before the discussion heads in that direction I'll just ask people to remain calm, respect people's opinions even if you vehemently disagree with them, avoid angry slanging matches, etc. if your blood starts boiling I'd suggest going to another thread instead of posting here. :)
I live in a country which thankfully doesn't have the death penalty. Although people clamour for it to be reintroduced from time to time.
Oh! You're no fun. I wanted to see how many knots I can get into AM's tail. ;)
Re: Another Botched Execution
Terrible. A disgrace for a supposed civilized nation. I understand the emotions that go into wanting a murderer dead. But that is why it's not up to the victims' families.
I'd vote to let the victims families decide.
My own opinion....hang em high.
Much better than spending tax dollars (my money) keeping the criminal alive behind bars for decades.
Executing people. I mean, what could go wrong?
Quote from: VickyMI on April 30, 2014, 09:03:42 PM
Much better than spending tax dollars (my money) keeping the criminal alive behind bars for decades.
There are literally hundreds of studies that show lifelong sentences are considerably less costly than death penalty cases.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
I don't see the advantage of capital punishment:
1. It is way more expensive than life sentences.
2. Is irreverseable if the criminal is later found innocent.
3. Is a moral quagmire.
4. Does not deter crime.
What is the advantage? We get to puff our chest out and thump on in a huzzah moment? Help me out here.
-AM
Quote from: Androgynous_Machine on April 30, 2014, 09:36:35 PM
There are literally hundreds of studies that show lifelong sentences are considerably less costly than death penalty cases.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
I don't see the advantage of capital punishment:
1. It is way more expensive than life sentences.
2. Is irreverseable if the criminal is later found innocent.
3. Is a moral quagmire.
4. Does not deter crime.
What is the advantage? We get to puff our chest out and thump on in a huzzah moment? Help me out here.
-AM
Exactly my feelings on this. I can't see the benefit other than the emotional sense that justice is being served. I get why people may feel this way, but I feel the costs greatly outweigh the potential benefits. And quite frankly, I think a life in person is a worse fate and greater deterrent than capital punishment, at least, it would be for me. That's not to say the man in question of this botched execution was a saint. He was far from it, but we don't have to become like him in order to make sure justice gets served. Just my opinion.
It is telling that the USA cannot get the lethal drugs they require for execution as the overseas companies that make them refuse to sell them to the USA for what they consider a barbaric practice. Hence the States wanting to buy them will not say what they are using as the companies then stop future sales.
The two countries that kill the most prisoners are USA and China!
It just seems time that human beings stopped using primitive 'justice' and decided how to tackle the problems behind the crime.
JMO
Quote from: Cindy on May 01, 2014, 12:16:54 AM
It is telling that the USA cannot get the lethal drugs they require for execution as the overseas companies that make them refuse to sell them to the USA for what they consider a barbaric practice. Hence the States wanting to buy them will not say what they are using as the companies then stop future sales.
The two countries that kill the most prisoners are USA and China!
It just seems time that human beings stopped using primitive 'justice' and decided how to tackle the problems behind the crime.
JMO
Agreed. The US as a nation is so behind the times. I can't believe the barbarism that exists in this 'first world nation'.
I can't be supportive of a death penalty when the legal system in the U.S. is so absolutely broken. Unless, of course, you are very rich.
Quote from: Cindy on May 01, 2014, 12:16:54 AM
It is telling that the USA cannot get the lethal drugs they require for execution as the overseas companies that make them refuse to sell them to the USA for what they consider a barbaric practice. Hence the States wanting to buy them will not say what they are using as the companies then stop future sales.
I have a solution for that:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpalmettostatearmory.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2Fk%2Fp%2Fkpc_2375.jpg&hash=e26d410c9c70369882f878028d6d291b90a50de9)
Quote
It just seems time that human beings stopped using primitive 'justice' and decided how to tackle the problems behind the crime.
Some people just need killing. They can't be deterred or rehabilitated. What is more cruel? Quickly ending a wasted, destructive life? Or making them suffer through a lifetime of incarceration with all of the indignities and deprivations that brings?
Yes, ideally we would address and fix the underlying socioeconomic problems and physiological conditions that cause most crimes, but since that isn't going to happen anytime soon, you have to face a reality with the only tools we have available.
Quote from: JamesG on May 03, 2014, 11:15:20 AM
I have a solution for that:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpalmettostatearmory.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2Fk%2Fp%2Fkpc_2375.jpg&hash=e26d410c9c70369882f878028d6d291b90a50de9)
Some people just need killing. They can't be deterred or rehabilitated. What is more cruel? Quickly ending a wasted, destructive life? Or making them suffer through a lifetime of incarceration with all of the indignities and deprivations that brings?
Yes, ideally we would address and fix the underlying socioeconomic problems and physiological conditions that cause most crimes, but since that isn't going to happen anytime soon, you have to face a reality with the only tools we have available.
I respect your view and political beliefs, but I really have to disagree. I'd like to believe that everyone can be saved and rehabilitated or at least redeemed in some way. Maybe they shouldn't be out in society and have sacrificed their freedom, but simply shooting someone just doesn't sit right for me. It sounds evil. Besides, I'm pretty certain that violates the 8th amendment as it's currently interpreted by the court. However, I understand why you feel this way and get the point that you are trying to make despite my personal disagreement.
Everyone dies. Its only a matter of when and how.
And death by firing squad isn't unconstitutional, its on the books of several states. It just isn't used much because its considered "uncivilized" by the squeamish, it gives capitol punishment bad PR. ::) ::)
Please don't post entire articles when they are that long. A teaser and a link is all you need.
There are too many wrongful convictions. Even if there weren't, why should the government that is supposedly by, of and for the people be able to kill off it's own citizens?
Quote from: LordKAT on May 03, 2014, 11:01:40 PM
There are too many wrongful convictions.
Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. KIDDING!
Quote
Even if there weren't, why should the government that is supposedly by, of and for the people be able to kill off it's own citizens?
Self preservation. Because The People want to kill off those that are a danger to them. The government is simply the instrument that is used (as opposed to lynch mobs).
Quote from: learningtolive on April 30, 2014, 11:13:07 PM
That's not to say the man in question of this botched execution was a saint. He was far from it, but we don't have to become like him in order to make sure justice gets served. Just my opinion.
Who he was and who his victim was is irrelevant in the context of the State following the Rule of Law and more importantly the 8th Amendment of the US Constitution.
I wonder who is going to go to jail and/or be executed for this huge blunder from the State?
Short answer; no one.
And that's my problem. Poor people, in general, have a much worse off time in the justice system.
I like the OJ Simpson case, now I don't care what you think in the way of him actually doing it or not but ask yourself this question: If OJ Simpson were a poor black man, would the trial ended the same way much less get national news about it?
You can get 25 years hard time for stealing a $5,000 car in some parts of this country, and in those same parts a man who steals millions pilfering people's retirement accounts might spend a few years in a no-gate white-collar "prison". And that's a big "might".
I won't even get into the absurdity of drug convictions that almost exclusively target the poor.
Combine all this with the State getting by with inexcusable crime against the US Constitution and Human RIghts and it doesn't take one long to get gut-rotted with the shear ugliness of it all.
-AM
Quote from: JamesG on May 03, 2014, 11:15:20 AM
I have a solution for that:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpalmettostatearmory.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2Fk%2Fp%2Fkpc_2375.jpg&hash=e26d410c9c70369882f878028d6d291b90a50de9)
That's still an option in Utah. 3 death row inmates has requested that since Gary Gilmore's execution, but the dragging appeals process will more likely cause these inmates to die of age related ailments.
Joelene
I disagree with the death penalty since many people have been found innocent after being executed.
That being said, if we are going to execute people, why go through all of this bureaucracy with drugs and crap? Anesthetize both wrists with local, cut into them deeply with a scalpel, and put hands in warm water.. No pain, guy/girl just slips away.
My disagreement with the death penalty is that I believe the process used in a death penalty case is unfair. The jury is polled as they are selected to be sure they are OK with it. This means it is not the sort of unbiased twelve people that would be selected for any other case - and they are WAY more likely to convict.
I lived in Illinois where the Governor felt he had to set commute all the death penalties as too many had been proven innocent later. That still sucks... If the jury hand picked to approve the death penalty thinks the accused is innocent they sentence them to life in prison with no possibility of parole rather than the death penalty. This is going back to "justice" in the middle ages.
So, yes, I would abolish the death penalty ASAP.
Erin
Glad I live in the 21st century and not the US.
Most of you have very little experience dealing with a murder in your own family. I had a family member who was abducted, raped then murdered... at 10 yrs old. They caught the bastard... found him guilty... and he was sentenced to maximum time allowed by law...
yet the rest of the family has had an almost impossible time picking up the pieces. None of us feel any form of justice was served. Every one of us wishes for the death penalty to be reinstated. We all (the family) hope he accidentally gets put into the general population and the rest of the prisoners do him in.
I consider myself a pacifist. But if I ever ran into this child killer I would find it next to impossible to remain peaceful and would probably try to do him bodily harm.
Zaria
Quote from: Zaria on June 29, 2014, 01:12:38 AM
Most of you have very little experience dealing with a murder in your own family. I had a family member who was abducted, raped then murdered... at 10 yrs old. They caught the bastard... found him guilty... and he was sentenced to maximum time allowed by law...
yet the rest of the family has had an almost impossible time picking up the pieces. None of us feel any form of justice was served. Every one of us wishes for the death penalty to be reinstated. We all (the family) hope he accidentally gets put into the general population and the rest of the prisoners do him in.
I consider myself a pacifist. But if I ever ran into this child killer I would find it next to impossible to remain peaceful and would probably try to do him bodily harm.
Zaria
Sorry to hear that, but you're letting emotions get in the way of what is actually justice. 2 wrongs don't make a right, I've had family members killed but I have the strength to know that wanting the killers dead won't bring my family members back, it's not justice, it's just petty revenge.
Here's something relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kye2oX-b39E
I'm amazed. That was wonderful, sad, sick and tragic, not to mention the cruelty to hamsters!
The execution team did not place the the IV properly and that was the cause of the failure - it had nothing to do with the drugs used.
From the article:
"But this report, and the problems disclosed by an official timeline released by the state, point to issues with the IV rather than with the drugs."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/06/16/autopsy-finds-failure-to-place-iv-properly-during-botched-oklahoma-execution/
Regardless of how you feel about capital punishment - I believe that we would all agree that the state has an obligation to ensure that if capital punishment is used it must work quickly and painlessly every time. Making a mistake that causes this kind of a grisly ending is wrong. It was sloppy work by the state of Oklahoma, and it points back to the competency of the technician that placed the IV.
Quote from: JamesG on April 30, 2014, 03:43:17 PM
very cost effective (reuse the rope)
I'm not sure if that would really hold true. They used to have a formula for calculating rope and drop length to maximize effectiveness. You can't use the same length of rope when you adhere to that formula.
I used to be for the death penalty on the grounds of thinking my tax money went to keeping dangerous people alive, until someone pointed out that executions cost far more. And that prison kind of sucks and that's the point of going to prison.
That states are having a hard time finding the drugs because European suppliers are banned by those countries from suppling the United States was supposed to be a hint that the entire rest of the world considers our approach to criminal justice to be backward and barbaric. We have the death penalty, more inmates than the rest of the world does, and yet we still have more crime than the rest of the world does. We're doing it wrong.
I'm basically against the death penalty.
But if there is a state that does have the death penalty, no one should get the death penalty if they were convicted on circumstantial evidence only, no body found, the eye witnesses had some kind of animosity about the suspect, and can be mistaken in their identity of the suspect.
Also all death penalty cases can be heard an infinite number of times in the higher courts. Like in any court(combined) has allowed the maximum number of appeals at seven , then the higher courts could hear more.
Everyone also has the right for testing of any DNA samples in the case.
The best way to stop the practice, is to take governors out of decision making and to stop having elected judges!!!
Seriously, no successful justice system in the world have judges that can be thrown out of their position in an election. Maybe its different in different law codes (e.g. Napoleonic) but the British system- which the america one is based on CAN'T FUNCTION WHEN JUDGES ARE REQUIRED TO CAMPAIGN TO KEEP THEIR JOBS.
Politics and justice don't mix, of course a judge is going to campaign on the fact that he (yes I say he, the majority are white-haired old republican men) is tough on crime. This means that he is going to give harsher and harsher sentences in order to stand above his peers and appear more electable.
Judges should be chosen by skill, on the merit of their abilities, not by how many people they can send to an early grave.
I say that but the fact remains mass execution is kinda what got George W into the white house, so think of that why you may
Quote from: janetcgtv on August 10, 2014, 06:06:56 PM
I'm basically against the death penalty.
But if there is a state that does have the death penalty, no one should get the death penalty if they were convicted on circumstantial evidence only, no body found, the eye witnesses had some kind of animosity about the suspect, and can be mistaken in their identity of the suspect.
Also all death penalty cases can be heard an infinite number of times in the higher courts. Like in any court(combined) has allowed the maximum number of appeals at seven , then the higher courts could hear more.
Everyone also has the right for testing of any DNA samples in the case.
Strictly speaking, unless they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they shouldn't even be in prison at all.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on August 09, 2014, 08:15:30 PM
So, what is the correct way?
Good question. This is going to require some soul searching that we as a society are long overdue for engaging in. Why is our homicide rate so much higher than the rest of the first world? Why is our prison population so much higher than the rest of the first world, in addition to being the worlds highest? We are jailing more people for longer than anyone else and it is not getting us results. Something else we are doing is not working.
At the same time, crime on wall street, which has global consequence with reach and scale far greater than any death row inmate or supermax felon could dream of goes on with impunity, with crimes they commit essentially made legal through their access to our political leaders. These people turn our water flammable, crash the economy, launder money for drug lords, hired mercenaries to kill third world labor organizers, and have golden parachutes to not suffer consequences which often amount to a fine levied against a bottomless bank account that is less than what they made breaking the law in the first place or what they spent in bribing politicians.
When it comes to street crime, which is actually on a downward trend, I believe what it comes down to is our unwillingness to provide meaningful safety nets, or the free healthcare and mandatory vacation time that much of the rest of the world demands of their employers. I believe it comes down to the dismantling of tariffs and "barriers" to trade and by extension our industrial infrastructure for the sake of "free" trade, negotiated at the behest of the super rich, to make themselves richer by moving jobs overseas. I believe it comes down to the lack of will on the part of the political class to do what is right, to really declare war on poverty rather than what makes getting elected easier. All of these things come down to poverty.
Poverty has a measurable and significant destructive impact on the development of children. The stress of growing up in this environment, stressed out parents, parents who are working three minimum wage jobs rather than good union jobs, the trauma of hearing gun shots out of your window, of authority figures that you can't trust, lack of an ability to just go to the doctor, it interferes with their ability to develop executive brain functioning, of working memory and attention, of empathy and social attachment. AS early as kindergarten, children from low SES households come into school at a disadvantage.
Moreover, when you see personality disorders developing in a poor kid, its a conduct disorder. When a similar personality is seen in a rich adult, he is ambitious, an a type, an alpha male, a wall street hot shot. Only one is a "thug," a "criminal."
Tough on crime is not working. The death penalty is not working. We have been tough on crime for decades. We need smart on people. We need to look on our neighbors, our tired, our poor, our huddled masses yearning to breathe free as brother, as sister, as comrade. We need safety nets. We need the union jobs back, or a step further, worker ownership. We need a guaranteed standard of living. We need guaranteed single payer healthcare. We need an end to the war on drugs and a new war on poverty, on inequality. We need to reconsider allowing people to become the richest among us, not through working but through owning, through shuffling money from one place to another place in a way that threatens our economy. We need no more of too big to fail or jail but to nationalize those industries that can't behave.
And I suppose there has never been anyone convicted of murder who has later been found to actually be innocent? Jeeze.
The legal system has many flaws Kariann, justice is miscarried frequently due to sloppy or biased police work, bad legal representation (poor people frequently can't afford the best lawyers) and any other number of factors to do with dodgy witnesses, judges, jury or forensics. There was a recent case if brothers with a mental impairment being released after many years incarceration who had been convicted of murder based on bad evidence.
kariann330 been perm banned for advocating genocide against Muslims.