Hello there!
I am new to these forums, though it was one of several resources I used when deciding on Yeson for voice surgery, like many others here. I did notice the large community here and have meant to post a hello on this subforum in particular for some time, since my attention at the moment is heavily focused on my upcoming surgeries.
My Yeson VFS surgery is currently scheduled for late July (22-30) - I see a couple people scheduled for just before or after me, hello and best of luck. :) It's not 100% confirmed yet due to unresolved passport and itinerary issues. But very likely.
I had a few questions, one I see (risks of going alone) has already been covered recently, so I will be sure to check out the relevant thread/s.
Another question I had that I have not read about yet (but there are a lot of threads so I just may not have gotten to it yet) relates to the following - I talked to Jessie about doing a tracheal shave at the same time, and she said that:
QuoteUpon patient's request, we perform the trachea shave but we do not recommend it for the best outcome of VFS surgery. Trachea shave requires neck skin incision. The reason we do not recommend trachea shave is because the ressection on thyroid notch may affect the pitch-raising muscle which is a critical function for VFS surgery. Therefore, we will very preservatively perform trachea shave. Having it done by another doctor you will have to see the progress after surgery whether your pitch has dropped down or not.
My question is: Has anyone gotten a tracheal shave performed at the same time as the VFS in Yeson? How was your experience? Did you have to pay any extra for it? Did anyone ask and decide not to based on what they recommended? I've always thought tracheal shaves weren't supposed to affect the voice at all, hrm. Has anyone done it post-Yeson and have it adversely affect the voice? For me it sounds like it's going to be a day-before decision though once I actually go in for the pre-surgery consultation.
Also, would it be all right if I used this thread as a running travel diary/log of my surgery and experiences there, and maybe the prep period prior to going? I'll likely be going there alone and terrified out of my mind, so hopefully this will help alleviate it a little heh.
Thanks for reading. :)
My reply from Jessie in regards to the shave:
"We can decide whether or not to perform the trachea shave only after revewing the voice exmiantion result here.
Most of the cases, we do not recommend it for the best outcome of VFS surgery.
Thank you and warm regards,"
Dear Jessray,
I've not had (or needed) a tracheal shave, so I'm in no position to tell. However, I know that Jennygirl had VFS on top of a prior tracheal shave expertly performed by Dr. O and it wasn't a problem.
So I suppose this would be the way to do it, trach shave first, VFS second. I'm not sure. If Jessie says "you will have to see the progress after surgery whether your pitch has dropped down or not", I think this is a pretty good indication that the sequence I described is a working arrangement, for it happens very rarely that pitch drops after a trach shave.
And pretty much everybody here uses "their" thread as a running log of their VFS experiences, so go ahead and do likewise :-)
Amy
Congratulations on your upcoming surgery!
I had a lot taken off of my adam's apple three months before VFS at Yeson, but not too much that it affected my voice. Perhaps it did affect it slightly, and I did not notice. I consider my result from Yeson to be extremely satisfactory..
I would be very weary of tracheal shave before or after Yeson's VFS as a separate procedure. I think it would be smart to have them do it, or a very reputable surgeon beforehand. Not afterward, though. Consider VFS with Yeson as an investment in your voice, you do not want anything to interfere with that afterward.
And yes absolutely feel free to update. Everyone loves hearing reports of your experience and especially voice samples :D
Oops. Kind of forgot to check for replies here. Thanks for the replies and that sounds about right.. I'll see what they say during the consultation then. I wonder if it'll affect the price any, heh.
I was going to go to Dr. Thomas in Portland last year (I actually went.. and pulled out two days before the op) and they offered a 'free' tracheal shave as part of the package, but I guess since they were doing an incision anyway it wasn't much more different, plus it's a different procedure after all.
I will spam up this thread when my time comes, if all goes well (negotiating passport issues at the moment). Thanks to the three of you for the replies. :) My feet.. they're cold, cold!
Edit: According to this link (//http:///r/asktransgender/comments/2638cz/ama_at_yeson_voice_center_sitting_in_bed_for_next/chndqii), trachea shave would add $2500 or so to it. Hmm.
May I ask why did you pull back from Dr Thomas that closely to the surgery date?
Several reasons, mainly because it was a rushed decision on my part, and I realised that while weighing options "in the moment". I actually wanted to do it to coincide with the start of transition, ie do the voice op, then immediately begin my RLT right after (went March 2013, and was starting April 2013) since I figured I wouldn't be talking much anyway. But there was too much going on, especially because workplace politics became a little bit unstable around that time due to budget cuts (I survived though and am still working here now).
Another reason was that I had bad vibes about the whole thing, it started when Jody (Dr. Thomas' front desk person) gave me a completely borked itinerary (with wrong dates and all) post-payment, although she was super nice other than that. I don't remember what other things played into it. I do remember the last straw was having jitters but not being able to see Dr. Thomas and talk to him to allay various worries and nerves before the pre-op appointment, without having to pay $500 or so, since if I recall after the pre-op appointment it seals in the fee you paid and you can't get a refund. I did talk to him once over the phone many months before while researching the place, but I didn't get a particularly good or warm impression from him then, though it wasn't a bad one either.
Lastly I had my dad with me and let's just say he was a bad support person. This time I plan to go alone (sadly), mostly because I don't want my parents there (they are supportive but not really understanding) and none of my friends can make it. I am definitely worried I may have same sort of panic attack while over in S. Korea that may force me to pull out again though, but the testimonials on here, ->-bleeped-<-, Youtube and elsewhere certain help a lot (Dr. Thomas' did not really have those, just a small number on his site and one online friend's friend).
At any rate they refunded all but $500 of the $9k or so fee.
Ok - I understand. I had the impression Dr Thomas is quite good for some people but its bigger surgery than Yeson.
So there are more reports on Dr Kim than on susans and his own youtube channel? Do you care to share some links? i would like to see some more info besides our little group here ;) THX
Yeah I'm sure he's pretty good. I still was planning to return someday until I heard about Yeson a couple months ago, what a relief.
It's mostly ->-bleeped-<- threads outside of those two, I started with Google, which led to a few ->-bleeped-<- links (//http:///r/asktransgender/search?q=yeson&sort=new&restrict_sr=on) - it actually led to another thread with voice samples but which doesn't show on searches because the author had deleted her account, so oh well. That subsequently linked to his Youtube channel, then to his site, and then subsequent searches for testimonials turned up this site right away. :) There doesn't seem to be any mention of Yeson around my local area's trans community, but I wasn't too surprised at that.
Oh, another reason I pulled out was that at that time, I had only been doing voice training for about 3 months. My voice has changed a lot even since then, so I am generally passable now, it just takes a lot of effort to do so. At that time I was also sort of thinking of it as a quick fix, which may have worked regardless, but now I just want to remove the bottom of my vocal range so I don't have that option anymore, and bump my top range up a little, which is probably a better philosophy to go in with.
Quote from: Jessray on May 21, 2014, 12:39:32 AM
Oops. Kind of forgot to check for replies here. Thanks for the replies and that sounds about right.. I'll see what they say during the consultation then. I wonder if it'll affect the price any, heh.
I was going to go to Dr. Thomas in Portland last year (I actually went.. and pulled out two days before the op) and they offered a 'free' tracheal shave as part of the package, but I guess since they were doing an incision anyway it wasn't much more different, plus it's a different procedure after all.
I will spam up this thread when my time comes, if all goes well (negotiating passport issues at the moment). Thanks to the three of you for the replies. :) My feet.. they're cold, cold!
Edit: According to this link (//http:///r/asktransgender/comments/2638cz/ama_at_yeson_voice_center_sitting_in_bed_for_next/chndqii), trachea shave would add $2500 or so to it. Hmm.
Absolutely agree with what Jenny says about being careful about getting a trach shave. I had mine in 2000 but fortunately it doesn't seem to have altered my voice (touch wood). We'll find out in a couple of weeks when I have VFS if that's true. What a lot of girls who have very prominent throats find, myself included, is that you can still see what's left of the Adam's Apple after surgery. The prominence is gone but it does look odd. However, I think even if I'd not had testosterone poisoning I would still have had something visible; my anatomy is just that way. :(
Yeah some women do have a pronounced larynx. I still wonder how it correlates to voice, pitch, vocal chord length etc.
Yeah my larynx is still super visible, I was a tad upset by it for about a month after wondering if it was just swelling.. but you just learn to live with what you have and move on. Big wup! Just as long as it's not a "notch" it's not necessarily a tell.. Or maybe people are just being nice to me? ;)
Yeah I don't know heh. To me, mine is quite visible.. especially when I'm tired. I'd like to get some of it done, especially since I think my voice is already decently high, so I probably don't need a full range pitch raise, buuut then again. $2500 on top of it (if that is the price) is fairly expensive, for something that I've never been outed for before -- or maybe everyone's just been nice to me too. :P
It just was a bit of a surprise since all the literature I've ever read said it wouldn't affect the voice one bit, and both Dr. Thomas and Dr. Brassard (GRS surgeon here in Canada) seem to toe that line of thought. It'll probably be a pre-op day decision though. But ugh the surgery is freaking me out.
Silly question.. what is a notch in this context?
I am just curious. My voice is super deep but as much as I am searching, cannot find an adams apple. But of course there is the larynx - every person has that, men and women, so I doubt that that would be an issue.
Still in prep mode here, my time off from work has already started because there are a bazillion things to do before I leave this weekend. I'm hoping to make this thread into somewhat of a travel log as well, because I will be sending the link to several people to follow along (pre-emptive hi folks!) so I don't have to repeat everything many times and leave out different details in each one. So hopefully I don't become the most annoying member on the forum before it's all over! And for all I know I'll be super exhausted when I get there and after surgery so I won't do anything. :P
But let's hope not.
Life here has been interesting while waiting, since I booked the date about 3 months ago. I had actually sent in my citizenship card to get the name and gender replaced before I had heard of/booked a date with Yeson, but had to retract that due to the process taking months, and the gender flag not actually being able to be replaced until I go through SRS and have a letter for that. I had to contact my MP for them to expedite my case and then finally get it withdrawn, and the MP office was really nice and fairly helpful but also did drop the ball for nearly a month (my contact went on emergency leave and the people that were supposed to take over the case in her stead, did not) which caused me some mild panic, but everything seems to have come together since then. I've gotten the yucky card back and used that to apply for my passport last week.
Canada only grants a one time, 2 year passport in your preferred gender, until you go through SRS. I am due to pick up that passport on Friday afternoon, one day before I leave. That's not worrying at all, nope. *sweats* But I supposedly have confirmation that it will be there, so hopefully they stick to that.
Have had lots of anxiety/crying/panic attacks in the last couple months, although less so in the last month as the date has drawn closer and things have started becoming incredibly busy. Had one last Friday or Saturday though. While there have been very many testimonials and actual people to speak to on the forum here, as well as a few online friends, and those have helped a ton, I am still very frightened in general about the concept of undergoing surgery and being alone and all that. I am nothing if not headstrong though and so I will be trying to power through that. Everything feels really surreal at the moment though. It was very tough leaving work for the last time (for 3 months) last week, especially since I know there will be changes while I'm gone in terms of personnel, and I just couldn't face my teammates - I had to sneak off because I was already hovering on the edge of tears saying goodbye to my supervisor and office partner. I think it took a good 30 minutes to compose myself.
My flight itinerary is Edmonton > Vancouver on Saturday, July 19th, on AC241, and Vancouver > Seoul on AC63. I fly off at 11:35 am, and arrive in Seoul on 4:50 pm on Sunday, July 20th, total of 13 hours flight time with a 1h 20m layover in Vancouver.
My pre-op is at 2pm on Tue, July 22nd, surgery is at 8am on Wed, July 23rd, and followup at 1:30 pm on Wed, July 30th. I fly back on the evening of the 31st.
I have not decided on a place to stay yet, and will have to do so right away. First time travelling on my own, never mind outside of the continent, and never mind yet for something as monumental as surgery. So hopefully I will avoid most of the pitfalls. I am definitely worried about the airports and flights, and a bit about being alone in foreign lands.
Have a couple things to look forward to, though. I booked tickets for a couple League of Legends games (I don't play it much, but I enjoy watching it) at the Yongsan e-Sports Stadium on the 25th and 30th at 7pm, hopefully I am well enough to catch those. :)
I also forgot to add, I did have a few tangles with Yeson during the last couple months.
The first was Jessie casually mentioning that,
"For the best outcome and safe recovery process, we do not perform the trachea shave along with VFS surgery. Please understand our decision. This can be discussed more in detail during the consultation."
Which shocked me, and I had to quote our original conversation back to her to get her to agree that we would talk about it before deciding, although they were advising against it. I am not sure currently if I will go for it but I want to make an informed decision based on the options given and the availability of the option was an important factor for me in the first place when booking it. So be wary of this if this is something you are looking to do with them too.
I also had some issues wiring the money for the VFS over to them, as my local branch could not find the wire transfer code for their branch that I was given. We eventually used the code for the main bank and sent it over on a bit of a leap of faith and they confirmed they had received it. $7390 was the final cost, and if we do go for a tracheal shave on top of that, then it will be another $2500 or so that I will have to pay the day before the surgery (credit card).
Have my passport in hand, busy packing for the trip. Somewhat nerve wracking only being able to get my passport the day before I fly off, but hey. I wonder what items I will wish I had brought along, the first evening in Seoul. :P
Still lots of nerves, but at this point there's a fair amount of adrenaline too. I don't think I'll be sleeping tonight.
I think I will be staying in the Gangnam Artnouveau Hotel (http://www.expedia.ca/Seoul-Hotels-Gangnam-Artnouveau-City.h3334687.Hotel-Information) that MeganChristine suggested in the other thread, would have preferred that other Sheraton that was also linked but at the price (almost double this one!) it was a non-starter. :P I say I think not because it isn't confirmed yet, as it is, but because there are apparently 2-3 hotels with a similar or nearly identical name, and this one has two different addresses that I've seen, and.. yeah.
4.5 star hotel for $137 or so a night - the main attractions for me were a good, safe place, near lots of amenities and attractions and fairly near the subway, and the in-suite kitchenette, and washer and dryer. There were other cheaper options on the table I looked at too, but in the end I didn't feel enough confidence in them, travelling alone.
Lots of things to visit in Seoul, hopefully I'm physically up to visiting a number of them! Assuming I survive!
Edit: Also, Yeson apparently no longer offers the guided tour that they mention on both their website and the info package that they send.
I hope it all goes well for you - I will be checking back to see updates :)
I know the feeling of being alone in a foreign country. Living in Australia, I took a leap of faith and visited my (then) girlfriend in America for two months all alone. It was exciting and scary at the same time!
@Jessray: If you go for the Gangnam Artnouveau, make sure you get a room situated no the same side as room 604, or even get room 604 :p It's on the west side of the hotel. Quiet, and no food smell from the restaurants around there :D
Btw, if you're looking for some quick take away late at night, I can recommend a small dumpling store between exit 5 on the station and the block the hotel is located. You see the steam pouring out of those big steamers outside :D It's like 4000won for 5 big dumplings :D impossible to miss ;))
Thanks for the well wishes Echelon! And thanks for the tip Megan! Hmm.. I am not sure if I'm allowed to choose my own hotel room, but we shall see! I will check out those dumplings, yummy.
I also did sign up for that DMZ tour you recommended. Added a note that I wouldn't be able to speak etc due to voice surgery and they said no problem. What else did you do while here? I should borrow your entire trip's itinerary at this rate! Hehe :)
I guess that you've already arrived in Seoul :D I wish you the best of luck :D You are not going to regret the DMZ-tour :D I wasn't able to speak my self on that tour. :D Gives you the chance to suck it all in.
Haha! If you want to do what I did, you have to walk - A LOT. :p There is a bike/walking/running trail along the Han river. There are also several places along the path where you can rent a bike. A very nice way to "relax", for those who are just as insane as myself.
If you want to wind down, and just enjoy the silence I would say, Goto Bukchon Hanok Village and just sit in the park there and let it all go :D Pick up some food on the way and just spend a couple of hours there, BLISS. :D
Oh, almost forgot, do not forget to catch the Rainbow bridge (Banpo Bridge), Closest Metro station is Express bus terminal :D Watershow from 8pm if the conditions are right. :) Sadly I was not able to experience it due to the wind.
-MegC
Hi Meg! :D I feel so lost, haha. Yet, so interesting once conquered. Thank you for the well wishes!! I'll see if I have time to check out some of those. :)
Night 1 Report
That 11 hour plane ride was so ouch sore, and boring, yet I couldn't get to sleep, but the jet lag and timezone shift hasn't caught up to me yet. It'll no doubt be paying a visit in a couple hours. Had lots of silence-induced negative thoughts in the meantime, the usual stuff, "Am I really doing this? I am aren't I?" "How did my life get this much out of control?" "This is so expensive." "I am butchering my body" "Who will miss me if I die quietly in a faraway country or need help?" "Why is this plane's flight path taking us over USA, Russia, China and NK after what happened last week?" etc. (It eventually deviated from the projected path to not actually pass over NK.)
Nearly ran into a bit of trouble at the Korean immigration/arrival stations cause I didn't have my arrival form, thankfully they had some on a table nearby and I scampered over to fill one in. I did recognise the form the others were holding - apparently Air Canada must have assumed I was Korean and possibly the wife of the Korean guy I was seated beside (I'm Chinese), and gave me a Korean one without asking. I didn't understand a word of it and assumed it was a liquor purchase form or something based on some of the words/phrases I did see (I'm a travel noob, don't laugh) so I just kept it aside, hehe. Oh well. No harm done. Another flight attendant did misgender the poor chap and then hastily correct himself, which brought a slight smile to my face. Though who knows for sure, maybe it made his day too!
Incheon airport was very interesting, since the first thing we were shuffled off to after we departed was a train shuttle, that would take us to the Passenger Terminal. I was skittish and unsure if I had missed baggage claim somehow, though it looked like no one else had theirs too. Also, as usual, the doors slammed shut in my face because the shuttle was full and I had to wait for the next one with a few others, that plus the immigration card thing meant that by the time I got to the baggage area (which was after immigrations and before customs, in the Passenger Terminal), I was afraid my check-in bag wouldn't be there and someone else would have filched it or something, but thankfully it was stoically and loyally waiting for me as always, nearly alone on the roundabout carousel.
After a quick customs shuffle, I was finally out! It made me sad to pass, alone, the hoard of people standing there with name cards waiting to welcome friends/family. :( Yeah, way to rub in that I am alone and scared. The public arrivals section was busy though, wow. At one point a group of about 80 high-schoolish age girls ran past at top speed. That was weird.
I picked up one of those rental portable wifi hotspots from LG at one of the many booths around the airport that someone else mentioned, since I brought with me an iPhone 4, a Nexus 7 with no phone capabilities, and a Macbook Air (running Windows, of course, eww Mac OS :P). It works wonders! Tiny and light, slightly smaller than an iPhone, and it runs 4G. Screw hotel wifi internet, or having to constantly search for and connect to the nearest free internet in public, this thing has unlimited data and seems to work great. Don't seem to have a copy of the receipt at the moment, but it's 8k won a day for the first 4 days, and 5k per day after, with a hefty fine charged to your CC if you don't return it on the agreed upon date. Google Maps and chat programs everywhere and uninterrupted yay. The only concern I have is that I'm pretty sure you can connect to someone else's too since the password is guessable from the SSN, but I guess it's not really a big deal and others would have to be stalking you to constantly be on your wifi. I wonder if that's ever been used as a court defence.
Asking the info booth for directions turned out to be a good idea, the nice lady printed out a map of my hotel and the nearest bus shuttle, told me the stop, and pointed me to where to go to catch the bus and what stop to get off at. There was a fairly large bus terminal and ticket booth outside the arrival gates, and the process was that I had to buy a ticket (15000 won - $15), and then catch the correct shuttle bus. Naturally the bus stopped at the neighbouring bus stop and I would have missed it if I didn't check. The driver was nice though and I love how the on-board AI calls out not only the name of the current stop, but also the NEXT stop. Very useful feature I often feel I need back home too.
Some reviews mentioned this hotel was somewhat difficult to find, because it's off on a side street. It's one street off the main road, and I did take a (brief) wrong turn getting to it even though I had the map of it. Location seems to be great, tons of shops and such nearby, and one or two short streets away from the subway station, but the area itself is a little run down and had faint garbage/sewer/food scents in places. The shuttle bus took an hour to drive from the airport to the main streets, and the train would have taken a little longer. Taxi likely not too much shorter, but more expensive, and less adventurous! Bus shuttle is definitely the way to try. The weather was a balmy 26-28 celsius when I was headed to the hotel, 22-29 for the day.
The hotel itself is a mix so far. The room I got had a slightly strange smell, but I can't place if it's anything bad or if it's the natural smell of the wood floor etc. 10th floor, but not much of a view. Sorry Meg, I don't think it's on the west side, oh well. :P A small fly buzzed by me as my welcome committee, I haven't seen it since. The fridge also smells, though again I don't know if that's meant to be the natural smell. Actually the room scent seems to be a much lighter version of the fridge one, I think. So some sort of food?
The microwave was absolutely filthy, I had to clean the glass tray myself and running a tissue on the walls of the microwave immediately turned the tissue brown. Eww. Not going to use that much. :( One of the wall sockets that I tried doesn't work, either. Had to manually request for washing detergent from the front desk as others noted, I now have a little paper cup full of powder detergent heh. There were also occasional visible stains on the counters, though the utensils and stuff that I looked at seemed to be fine and mostly clean. I think I'm going to avoid using them as much as I can, though. I suspect the thermostat is not working either, at least not according to what the manual says. Oh, and of course, the safe in the closet is locked and I can't use it. :P That's a tomorrow project.
Most of the room is powered on only when your hotel card is placed in a slot just inside the hotel door, interesting tech. I had read about it in reviews though so I was expecting that. It also has a different lock system then what I was used to in hotels, and I didn't realise I had left it unlocked for about an hour or so until I noticed the little toggle as I went out to get dinner. Weird it doesn't auto-lock when closed. The elevator also doesn't let you use the up buttons unless you swiped your card first, though the button to the main floor lobby always works.
The bathroom/toilet is to die for though. Even though it's small, I love the shower layout and functionality, and wow that high tech toilet seat. Haha. Nice little nozzles for post-use umm.. cleanup, and heated toilet seats. And I noticed it was ventilating the shower area of its own accord after I had left it. Very good. The one drawback is that there's very little counter space to put stuff on. The decor in general is also nice if you ignore the occasional chipped tile, the floor is a nice comfy dark wood, though I have not had the chance to inspect everything yet, as I feel sleep deprivation catching up to me and.. zzz... There is a wireless router below the large wide-screen tv, that also has ports for a wired connection I guess (didn't test), an electric water heater that works really fast that I am going to use and hope it's hygienic, and some other machine that I cannot figure out in my addled state, but is probably a rice heater. For the base price ($300+ US/night) they're asking, I would definitely not recommend it. I guess it's okay though, for the price I paid ($130-140 CAD/night).
Didn't eat much in the past 24 hours, but I caught a meal in Vancouver in the 10 minutes I had before boarding, Air Canada served three small meals in the 11 hour flight, I had a few snacks, and bought some stuff from a KFC a block away from the hotel. Poor lady there didn't seem to know English and had to ask someone else for help, I hope that doesn't become a problem for the rest of my stay though. If I can get the food issue worked out, all should be good.
Worried about the trip home when I will have no voice to explain things, and I seem to remember a full body scanner at Vancouver airport when transitting back into Canada from international airs. I only have a short layover there so there's a chance I'll miss that plane coming back if anything at all happens. Oh well.
And now, I sleep!
OMG, your room wasn't clean? Wow, mine was in mint condition when I got there. The sewage/garbage smell is something you sadly enough will have to get used to. It's ALL over the city.
Btw there is a KFC even closer to you ;) if you turn left when you get out on the street and then left again at the first intersection... Voila KFC on your left :p There is also a minimart just outside the hotel on your left hand side :) Cheek the freezer there, THEY HAVE ICE CREAM ;)
Yeah, I don't mind the smell too much - it's not very strong and not pervasive everywhere or anything. It doesn't seem to be a "bad" area of town either, just a big city thing. I don't like to make a fuss but I do at least need to talk to them about the safe anyway so. We'll see re: the rest! :)
I did see that minimart, haven't gone in yet! I'll have to do more exploring today. :) Maybe find that dumpling store too!
Day 2 - July 21 2014
I slept for all of 4 hours the first night, and was all wide awake by about 4-5 am but didn't actually leave until 7 to try to find my way to Yeson in time for Amy's surgery (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,169682.0.html).
The subway turned out to be fairly easy to use, the most difficult part was actually finding where to get the rechargable subway card instead of the one use or day pass ones. In the end, I was lucky that my station (Gangnam Station) had an info office and a convenience store next to it, so the former pointed me to the latter and they talked in Korean and soon after I had my card. I see that that's actually mentioned in the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Subway#Fares_and_ticketing) now, but who looks there beforehand, right?
That part took some time, but once set up it was easy to recharge and find my way around, I think I took five trips for about 1050 (just over $1) each through the day, and have about half of it left. The stations are trilingual, Korean, English and Chinese on nearly all signs, and while it's a really complex conglomeration (http://www.smrt.co.kr/program/cyberStation/main2.jsp?lang=e) of lines, the trains are good about announcing each stop, and the train stations are fairly good at pointing you toward the line, and direction of travel, that you are looking for, though I managed to end up on the other side of the connection I actually wanted to make a couple times anyway. It's fairly similar to how Singapore's subway work, which I have (old) experience with since I grew up there. Except more complex, but very well organized at the same time. The trains and stations were equipped with LCDs with varying amounts of info, and the subway map was so complex that there were often sub-maps for each track or listing connecting stations only. One thing was severely lacking from the stations I visted though - seats! Although the wait for each of my trains was never more than a few minutes. The train themselves were very wide, half again as wide as our trains back home.
It was a short ride to Apgujeong, where Yeson was. I managed to get lost because I didn't initially notice that the second set of directions (http://www.yesonvc.net/contact/location.asp) on the Yeson website was for Apgujeong Rodeo station, which was on a completely separate line, not Apgujeong itself. Had to retrace my steps and then found that the other set of directions works great. I made a picture trail here (http://imgur.com/a/Dn5qL/) and may add more later. I'm also glad I went there today, the day before my pre-op, so I could tick that off the stress checklist.
Due to all those shenanigans, I was actually 15 minutes late, but did manage to get there in time as they were preparing Amy for her surgery, and I breathlessly wished her well before leaving. Also briefly met and exchanged pleasantries with Jessie and some of the other staff there too. I then had a minor panic attack after leaving, so I decided to go back to my hotel room and sit down a bit. Took the subway back and this time ran into rush hour subway traffic, yowch. Wasn't too bad overall though and I got back to my room without further incident.
When I was headed for Yeson in the morning, all the stores in the pedway areas above and around Gangnam station were closed up and it looked rather desolate. It was a different story by late morning to early lunch period though, people bustling everywhere and all the stores and stalls open with bright lights and flashy signs. Night and day difference.
In the afternoon, I went down to Namdaemun market, 2 line transfers and 12 stops away. I didn't actually buy anything, just browsing, as lots of stuff was in Korean and I'm not a very brave soul. It was pretty intense though, tons and tons of stalls and shops set up, either outdoors, set into the sides of the buildings, or within enclosed air-conditioned buildings themselves. Wide roads, narrow roads, insanely narrow indoor passages, streets merging madly together, stairs sloping down to worryingly buried alleyways. It was pretty neat all in all, order in chaos and all that, and very busy too.
It's an outdoor market, but essentially all the stores are set in covered nooks and so are sheltered from light rain. There were accessory stores, which were basically indoor rooms with tables each specializing in a certain item (read: had a pile of said items) like hairclips, bags, shoes, thread, bangles, etc, impossibly narrow aisles, and a girl tending each table. Import stores, which were buildings with tables full of western brand-name products like electronics, kitchenware and other potpourri. Overall there were lots and lots of clothes stalls, hat stalls, shoe stalls, bag stalls, and lots of food stalls mixed in too, with the occasional randomly out of place store (like a toy store). Some of the stalls had people standing outside who would yell some gibberish at me (to hawk their wares) to make me wince as I walked by. I don't know about others but to me that would actually lower your store's desirability. At least, I always bypass those because I don't like the pressure to shop there "under encouragement"!
All in all, it was kind of a flea market or outdoor market district, the buildings were all built specifically for the market. It was a low tech region, not much in the way of electronics and such, but a gold mine of clothes and other accessories. The pace of travel was fairly slow and in the tighter passages (usually indoors), the modus operandi was "gently push and squeeze by if someone is blocking the way". It was neat seeing couriers that were transporting goods slowly weave their way through the crowds on motorcycles too. I had lunch in a random corner store, then let myself wander for an hour or two before I found one of the subway entrances again and left.
I then went back to Yeson, sat down with Amy and Skype chatted with her for an hour or so as she recovered, before heading back to the hotel. If you read this, hopefully by now you're feeling better and ready to do those jumping jacks. :) That definitely helped calm me a little too, seeing her before and after and hopefully lending me the courage to go through it, it was like reading the spoiler guide to a game or tv show! The nausea and disorientation and a bit of a lack of energy (and a sore, but not painful, throat) seemed to be the main issues facing one post-surgery, mostly from the anesthesia I suspect, but the nausea and headache were all projected to be gone by discharge time in the evening anyway.
I then went back to the hotel, figured out how to use the washer (well, dryer portion), and finally figured out how to activate the air conditioning as well. Turned out it was a separate remote in Korean, that wasn't mentioned in the instructions (It just said the air-con system was "operated by a control panel" which apparently meant the remote, and not the thermostat on the wall which does control the heating). I'm still a klutz though, I had someone unlock the safe for me (using a master control) but then it promptly relocked again without a password once the guy left the room, when I closed it to see how it fits. And I couldn't get it open again. Big sigh. :( Even with the instructions in English in the file (What red light in the safe?? There wasn't one!) I couldn't get it to work, so.. I think I'll just carry my valuables around with me. :P
Bought some ice cream and milk and a few snacks from the little convenience store next to the hotel, in prep for my surgery. Nice to have that there, so at least when I don't feel like tackling Korean restaurants or food stalls, especially without a voice, I can still get some food from there if needed. Not quite Korean cuisine, though I definitely haven't seen Octopus Fried Rice frozen dinners at my local Safeway back home!
I am about 12 hours from my pre-op now, and 30 hours or so from surgery, and argh. Stress, worry, anxiety and fear. Although, this was the point during my trip to Portland where I decided to pull out, the night before the pre-op/two nights before surgery, and I currently have no such similar panic.. yet.
Edits: Oh, today was the first day I've gone out wearing a skirt too. Well not really, but that one was nearly an ankle-length skirt, and only once. This one was (just) above the knee and felt great. Yummy! I figured hey, this was a trip of so many firsts already, may as well get this one out of the way too in a foreign country where it's easy to rinse and forget! if it goes badly!
Also, while I do get approached quite a fair amount back home by people asking for directions, needing the time etc and looking for (I guess) a friendly face, I didn't expect that in Korea by an old Korean lady who didn't speak a word of English, while I was clutching a tourist guide in my grubby paws too. Unfortunately had to helplessly shrug at her a bit, but it was still neat in a way I can't quite put to words right now.
So today is probably the worst day of my life. I'm still in some state of shock but I'll attempt to write up what happened at Dr. Kim's office when I went in to Yeson for the pre-op tests.
I did both tests, but he identified it after the first and reaffirmed it after the second, showing me my vocal fold diagrams and such. He claims I have spasmodic dysphonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasmodic_dysphonia), I don't remember if he mentions which type, and basically there's a lot of tremor, with one vocal fold thicker than the other, they don't close all the way, it takes a bunch more air (5-6x normal) to vocalize each sound, etc.
He'll still do the surgery if I want, but his recommendation is to get botox treatment beforehand (ie, over months) and fix this before coming back for VFS. Otherwise, he says, the botox treatment Yeson will give will help stabilize it for 4-6 months, but after it wears off the sound quality will degrade again until I go get more jabs.
He gave me a bunch of numbers too, I got the entire voice exam file to try to "make an informed decision" by tonight even though I have no idea what all these phrases are and what the likely projections will be after the surgery, if I go through it. It was a lot of information at once on a topic I know nothing about, so I may have interpreted it wrongly, but I think the takeaway from what he said was that I was sitting around 172 hz on a comfortable frequency when I'm speaking in female mode, so well into the gender neutral range, but while the surgery would in theory push that all the way up to 250 (the top end of the female range), I'd naturally relax to get into a more middle number instead of forcing my voice up that far.
The issue with that is that currently I subconsciously speak softly to mask the tremor in my voice, and also by going up into my female range, because tightening and tensing the vocal muscles helps to mitigate it. However, post op, there will be no need for the latter, and so my voice will go even lower to compensate and probably end up somewhere around the range where it is now anyway. Or something like that. Unless I do more botox injections (expensive) every few months to stabilize the voice until I/my brain learns to adapt, which may or may not take an indefinitely long time.
I don't know. Something like that. I'm fairly distraught and in the midst of a full panic breakdown right now, not having eaten much in the past 24 hours or so due to getting ready for this appt and not having time after because it took so long (2-6pm), and I am supposed to make an informed medical decision on this huge life event before tomorrow morning in order to let them know if I still want the surgery or not?
The thing is, I guess there is some tremor but it's never really been something I've been pegged for, I don't talk much or very loudly anyway so I'm not sure if it will even matter if I still have the exact same tremors that I'd have to do the exact same treatment for (if it was something that needed curing) after the fact anyway? I was nervous and scared through the pre-op and I asked if that possibly had to do with it, he explained that there were different kinds of tremors and one way to find out if it was due to stress was to practice the 'Ahh' intonation in front of the hotel mirror and see. I guess there's some, but there isn't that much, certainly not in all tones of 'Ahh', and it's nothing that affected me in any way shape or form before. I think. Maybe?
I'd appreciate any help at all to make heads or tails of this, outside of the wikipedia article and the short brochure he gave me, I know nothing about this and am not in the right mindset to do anything at all currently. I'm still soaked from the rain outside and there were a couple other things that happened too. At this point with all the issues in my transition I just feel like giving up on it all. :(
I feel you girl. As I posted I have a tremor too along with asymetrical vocal cords, and they don't close causing me to use about five times as much effort as most people. I'm starting to think there are a lot of us. lol I will have to get the Botox and then they want me to call them in four months to see if I should start taking the medication that they are going to send me home with that I think kinda mimics the Botox. He said this would help my brain with the reprogramming. I have not had a voice coaching and know very little about it all other than I need to learn how to relax my muscles in the laryanx and use the other muscles to mimic a cis anatomy. I wish I knew what to tell you, but I do know I felt the exact same way you do with wondering if this all has just been a big mistake and if I should just give up on my dream. What ever you decide I'm here for you, if you would like me to come by tonight or if you have the surgery tommorow I can do that too, no problem. Stay fierce girl, trust in yourself and know that you where killing it in that dress. :-)
Thanks hugs :( It's weird because it's basically tremors and such like everyone else, but googling that voice condition talks about people who lose their voice completely and well, I am nowhere near that. That's exactly what was described that I have too, asymmetrical vocal cords that don't quite totally close. I get nervous around others when speaking anywhere near my old voice, and I've always tended to clam up entirely and speak minimally for large chunks of my life, so my voice isn't exactly something I've ever become totally used to, but this is like going in for a flu shot and finding out you have <insert incurable disease here>. And he diagnosed that by listening to me speak the first time. My low speech is normal and my female speech is always a work in progress but generally seems just fine too.
My dilemma is that I now have a bunch of powerful pro and con points and whichever I pick I'm going to be left wondering "what if" on the other side. And there are so many unknown variables and I'm stuck throwing darts at a dartboard to decide my life. :(
Dear Jessray,
I hope this message reaches you in time. I have a feeling that Dr. Kim diagnoses a tremor in virtually everyone. In the pre-op exams, I made a point of always using full support in order to speak and sing my notes dead straight and without the slightest hint of vibrato. In one tone near my then-low end, I failed and added vibrato and that's the note he picked up on. I was lucky that he didn't feel that this warranted Botox treatment. All of these resources I used, however, are unavailable to someone who doesn't have a solid knowledge of vocal technique.
It's very hard making a recommendation since apparently, you don't have a lot of experience in professional voice use, but in my opinion, if you didn't experience problems with voice tremor before, I'd say go through with the surgery, get your Botox shot afterwards and make a point of receiving good aftercare by a speech therapist or qualified vocal teacher. The voice will "sit" at a higher pitch post-surgically, and given good guidance afterwards, you should be able to receive a manageable and female voice without continued Botox injections.
This just goes to show what's been said here time and time again that VFS is not a cure-all, but involves a lot of attention to good voice technique both before and after the surgery. You can rest assured that a glottoplasty won't leave you with a Mickey Mouse-type voice, but it can take a lot of time and training to achieve a well-rounded female voice even though the pitch is technically correct after surgery. Even though the surgery will leave you with a perfectly healthy female vocal anatomy, it takes time, dedication, and training to make sure that you're handling the new equipment in the optimal way.
Many blessings,
Amy
Hi Amy,
A sincere thank you for your reply. It has reached me in time, and that seems to be what I've read up as well, what freaked me out was the additional diagnosis on top of that but that was described to me in terms of tremor and the incomplete glottic closure. When I have not, as far as I know, had any real issues with tremor or anything else, he even did mention that my regular speaking voices had no tremor.
I have no issue with the training and possibly even an additional botox shot or two if needed, down the road, but to have it described as potentially something that will be needed all my life and I don't know what else, really freaked me out something bad yesterday, since as far as I can tell nothing is wrong to begin with. Not to mention I was already suffering from nerves and tiredness going in.
I will likely be going in today and asking him a few more questions but then opting for the surgery anyway, unless any red flags are thrown up. I hope not.
Dear Jessray,
best of luck to you! There are a number of exercises that can be used to achieve glottic closure, and developing good support will assist you in getting rid of a lot of tremor as well – I assume that you'll be fine unless there's a diagnosis of essential tremor. I'm a professional musician, so I'm familiar with a lot of the vocal concepts involved in this, but understand that it can be bewildering and confusing to a layperson.
Please bear in mind that I'm not a doctor, so I don't know a lot about speech pathology. Assuming that the problem you described is functional, not physical, I think it won't be an insurmountable obstacle post-surgery. Just be sure to secure the help of a voice professional to help you obtain a healthy enunciation after surgery.
You can rest assured that as a surgeon, Dr. Kim is top-notch and that you'll be left with a pair of functional female-sized vocal cords. However, it's also decisive what you make of them, and you need to pay attention to receiving good aftercare. Invest a modest amount of money in some vocal lessons by a professional, and, by all accounts, you should be fine, if there are no physical problems with your vocal folds. It may take some effort, though.
Take care,
Amy
Dear Amy,
Thank you for the kind words and reassurance. No, no essential tremor that I've heard of or that I recognise from Googling, and I think that if there really exists any issues, it is functional in nature, but what do I know as well hey. :P
I am pretty sure I do have a voice clinic back home I can use as a resource, where I did my initial courses for voice feminization training, so that's definitely something I will look at too.
You too!
Jess
Well, nothing doing. Enough scary things were said by Dr. Kim that after a long period of deliberation and stewing I called it off. Oh well. Was all dressed in hospital slacks and all too. :(
I'm really sorry about the outcome Jessray, but being there with you and hearing what Dr. Kim and Jessie had to say, I think you made the right decision. I don't know if I could have been as strong as you to do so, but I'm proud of you. I have a feeling you will get this under control and be back in no time because you rock! It was really nice visiting with you and thanx for the ice cream. Love ya
Thank you for being there and no problem! I doubt I'll be back, but we'll see. This was way too stressful and cost too much emotionally and logistically (and monetarily) to set up, and what a disappointing ending. I just went back to the hotel room to have a massive breakdown, but am somewhat better now after that heh. Probably a big nap due in the near future too, I think I've slept 9 hours in the 3 nights since arriving.
Thanks for being there too. I really appreciated the company. It helps SO much to have someone else around.
I am sorry to hear that, Jess. I hope you did not have to spend too much money so far, just the flight and hotel costs, I hope?
Personally I think that it would not have been a mistake to go through with it, considering the famous Jenny was having termors too and was told she should get Botox injections after recovery regularly as well. AFAIK she does not follow that advice and still is doing great. Dr Kim seems to diagnose a tremor with most people and he likes Botox to correct it. I believe that a voice rehab can do a lot in that direction as well. I can imagine that it is a benefit to get this corrected before a VFS though. I wrote to Dr Kim in Winter and sent him my endoscopic video images along. He diagnose a tremor, assymetry, incomplete glottal closure on both ends and said I will need botox, have a longer recovery time and not get a really good result. He recommended that I resolve these issues first, so I kept doing voice rehab since Winter and the last video showed a significant decrease in the gaps between the vocal folds, less tremor and assymetry. So I am hopeful that this can be resolved. I do not know however what happens if doing VFS anyways. My educated guess is that as Dr Kim said, recovery will take longer as not only has the brain to learn the new voice, it also has to correct the mistakes made with tremors, assymetry, incomplete closure and all this (which I believe is a result of tension built up from improper voice feminization - which is why so many of us have it).
Since I am a insecure person, I probably would have done the same and postponed it - but if you stick with this even after what our resident voice expert Amy from Berlin says ;) - make sure to get voice rehab, get your voice fixed even if it means you have to drop a bit in pitch for now as was the case with me, and then do ENT checkups with video and send them to Dr Kim befor planning another trip.
I wish you the best and that you will get your voice beautiful.
Thanks Anjaq. Yeah, just flight and hotel costs. Yeson took $600 for the pre-op appointment and set up/xray costs etc but will be reimbursing the rest of the fee.
It wasn't the tremors and glottal thing, that I was fairly sure I could overcome as well, it was the diagnosis of that spasmodic dysphonia thing that rattled me. Though I guess those are just more prominent tremors. I believe, (please correct me Amy/northcountrymassage if I got any of it wrong) they predicted I wouldn't even be able to get a stable voice after operation, which was the golden question for me as to whether I was going to go through with it or not. At least without a couple years worth of botox injections. They think because of the way I talk and the way I subconsciously compensate for that "disease" (what a word), I don't see it myself but it's there and I wouldn't be able to do it post-op and could end up like some of the SD videos on Youtube after.
I still have difficulty mentally digesting it all.. I'm better now but still in a period of dulled shock and I can't really think about what I may have given up by walking away from that, but on the other hand I couldn't bring myself to go against Dr. Kim's recommendation of no surgery either, even though they still gave me the option. Plan is to go back home and get in touch with a voice clinic that I had used in the past to see if it's a true diagnosis or not and if they can offer any help assuming it's true.
That sounds like a good plan. Get it checked by a local clinig, get voice rehab and fix those issues. I was so devastated when I got that remote-diagnosis from Dr Kim last winter - I was close to actually putting myself into debt and booking the surgery in spring already but had some doubts still and that email was basically the decision to wait at least another year...
This is what I got and I think it sounds a little bit like what you described
QuoteIt is observed that you have vocal tremors and voice break as well as tension discrepancy due to unbalanced vibration pattern of your vocal folds.
It seems like all these symtomps have been there fore a long time and therefore to compensate these symptoms when producing sound, you seem to have a tendency to press your vocal folds squeezing them and producing
a breathy voice on your own unconsciously.
Dr.Kim said going through the VFS surgery is possible though it may take a longer recovery period or there will be limitation on your pitch increase process due to your vocal dysphonia.
Please be noted that VFS surgery is able to increase one's fundamental frequency about 75Hz in average that if your fo is arond 100-110Hz, it wouldn't be able to feminize your voice to the range of 200Hz.
Yes, the best way is to treat your vocal dystonia beforehand and that increases the chance of feminizing your voice.
so I cannot say what will happen in the long run. I am working on voice therapy, my voice does weird things now - seems releasing that tension is good on one side but also lowered my pitch and increased temporarily the assymetric sounds. Basically what I am doing mostly now is less of a feminizing voice training but a regular voice rehab, which is also insurance covered. I hope you can find a good solution as well
anjaq, I believe the big difference with you and I is that while we have the vocal tremors it is a learned type of issue and not a physical one like it is with Jessray. With her rare Spasmodic Dysphonia she has a physical neurological condition that she has to try compensate for, unlike us. Dr. Kim basically said (if I understood correctly) that if she decided to go thru with the surgery that it would really exacerbate the condition and make for a very poor voice for an extended period of time until she learned new ways to compensate. Also she would have to get the Botox injections for a very extended period of time (i.e. years) while trying to learn these new ways of compensating. If she works on trying to control the condition (it cannot be cured according to him), and then comes in for the surgery she will have a much quicker turn around to the voice she would like to get without the risk of a very poor voice in the meantime.
I think he did mention it was functional, not physical, but also not something that can be controlled easily - but I am not 100% sure on that.
Jessray,, functional would mean that you have some sort of damage/abnormality with your voice box/vocal chords which from everything I heard you do not. Unfortunately your crappy roll of the dice gave you a problem with your nervous system (hence physical from my understanding). Kinda like functional would be weak muscles that could be strengthened with exercise and physical would be the nerves being somehow damaged making it very hard to control the muscles.
I am not sure about the "functional" definition in this case. My diagnosis was "functional dysphonia" which basically meant that my voice function is inpaired, as I understand it. It is to my understanding nothing that cannot be treated with therapy. However I do not know about SD.
My personal approach would probably be: Get the diagnosis confirmed and specified (there are several types). Get voice therapy or rehab to learn how to compensate at all pitches, not just at an elevated pitch. (My guess is that this should be possible as you probably did not have a breaking voice forever until you feminized your voice?). Check your hormone balance. Several hormoned and medication can influence conditions that are connected to voice and neurological issues. Spiro for example is known to act on the voice. Progesterone acts in part on the voice and is a neuroprotecive and neuroregenerative agent. Testosterone is important for muscle activity and also nerves and bloodflow. Sadly for some, the goal in HT seems to be to just up Estradiol and lower T as much as possible and forget about P. I know from personal experience that his is a bad idea. I cannot even exclude that part of my voice regeneration in the past year is because I discovered my hormone imbalance.
Maybe try all of these options and then see if you need and want VFS in a year? Its not the most pleasant news, I can imagine. I am sad for you. I hope you can get it better.
I don't (think I) have a breaking voice now, and I certainly did not pre-feminization training either, yup. I just don't talk much period since I tend to clam up outside of 1 on 1 social settings.
But yeah. I am on all 3 meds. I haven't emailed the voice clinic still but probably will over the next couple days once I pull myself together cause I know they have yet another queue as well (And I'm not sure how much it will cost if anything).
Being able to now get back on my medication is definitely a small plus point in this mess though.
Thanks for the well wishes again. I'll weigh my options down the road for sure, but if it involves any sort of long term botox treatment then I probably will just stick with what I have and let this dream die.
Well, if your voice is naturally in the neutral range without any training, you could maybe get it feminized with training alone, in case surgery is not for you.
About the meds - please remove the dosage numbers ! - I think having Spiro and then dropping this pre surgery may increase issues. Make sure to get enough Progestereone if you have too little -it should be well above what women get for menopausal issues. Blood levels should be well above 2 ng/ml. Estradiol tablets also have issues. But this is off topic. I just cane to it because I read some scientific articles showing that Progesterone has a significant effect on nerves and if the SD is a neuronal issue, it may be lessened by increasing the P dosage.
Hello! Sorry for bumping a really, really old thread, but hey, it's my thread.
I just wanted to give a minor update to tie off the thread in case any other people happen to stumble upon this thread in future searches; I did a year of research and planning, saw a couple EMTs in town (all of which said I clearly did not have SD), and looking into what resources I had here in the city (Edmonton, Alberta) and where I would go if I needed Botox injections post-op. So after talking to Yeson, I decided to go back to them again for their VFS with a friend accompanying me this time, a year and three months or so after my last failed visit.
This time it all went smoothly, Dr. Kim claimed that my tremors, condition etc had gotten a bit worse, but that the surgery would help with the uneven vocal folds and such. He didn't even really stress the (alleged) Spasmodic Dysphonia this time in the diagnosis, and counter to the last time, said that this time he expected a full recovery and success as long as I followed the regimen and training and a possible followup Botox jab here if needed (review after 2 or 4 months?). I guess the big difference between the last trip and this one was simply the planning and knowing my support group and options back home for post-op care. They asked me if I had done any training during the year and I said no, but I knew where to go and whom to ask if I needed any post-op. They seemed to be satisfied with that. Dr. Kim also didn't think I would need more than one, maybe two, Botox injections post-op, but hard to predict the future of course.
Anyway the deed is done now, I had it done Oct 21 so I'm 2.5 weeks post-op, it's been 1 week since I arrived home, and I still can't believe I went through it and even had someone there for support. Dr. Kim prescribed me some extra medicine cause there was still some swelling during the post-op checkup, but all that's gone now, so is the swelling and sore throat though. The most annoying part far and away is/was the 30 minute period after a meal where I'd fight phlegm and the urge to cough, ewww. All my voice restrictrion violations have been due to minor unavoidable coughs from this.
The Botox injection left a nasty dark bruise on the neck but that's mostly faded now, still slightly visible in good light though. I do have my some sort of a voice back so that's a (perhaps silly) relief as I was not sure after the last trip's conversations with Dr. Kim, my voice for the one or two words I have said has been a bit softer/weaker, but steady. But I have not quite tested it as I plan to use all my "daily 1-2 words" only on coughs for now.
We stayed at Seocho Artnouveau City this time (Artnouveau City III, as opposed to Gangnam Artnouveau City/AC II last time). I'd say it was a clearly inferior experience, but not entirely bad all things considering. We ordered food from a different restaurant for every single meal we had, both eat-in and take-out, it was no real big deal at all with a tablet and internet access to do Google Translate with.
The price of the operation was exactly the same; most of the procedures and pre-op and schedules and stuff are still the same, there were a couple minor differences like having to send them a voice file before they would approve the op, as well as sign a form saying I would not disparage them offline or online no matter the outcome (but I really don't have anything bad to say right now anyway, the staff was fantastic and I think I will be just fine).
I miss Seoul already. Grrr.
Hey Jessray, how did everything turn out?
I'm in Seoul and ran into pretty much the exact situation you did. I also decided not to go through with it, though am considering changing my mind. Kind of at a loss. I hope all is well!
Hi! You are in Seoul right now? Eep, good luck whichever way you choose to go! What did the doc say?
Mine actually turned out well in a recovery sense so far, I still have a little bit of cutting out or shakiness in certain parts of my middle voice range, hoping that will clear up over time. My lower range is fine and the minimum pitch has been raised a little, my upper range is also doing great and I can hit much higher notes much more comfortably than before, though my normal speaking voice for now still rests close to/just a bit above the original speaking voice. It takes less effort to remain there now though and I can go even higher.
I had itchiness in the throat right at the 4 month period just as they had predicted, but I did not go for a 2nd Botox jab as it subsided after a week or so and lots of water and a few of those pills that they had prescribed. Unsure if that was the right solution or not, and I think Botox may even help with that little bit of shakiness in the middle range, but we'll see.
Edit: He said that stuff about me taking 6 times the normal air that a person does to vocalize words and sounds, though I didn't feel it then. I still don't really feel the difference now though I'll trust his judgement on that (even though my docs at home said nothing was wrong). The surgery supposedly does fix all that too though, as a side effect.
That is great :-)
When you 'original voice' are you referring to your trained voice before surgery? Like, now post-VFS you can sound that way with no effort? I would love to just open my mouth without a thought to what sound might come out.
I'm considering to do as you did and treat with the botox first and have the surgery in a few months. How did the botox without surgery affect your voice in the meantime? Does it also render you unable to speak? I'm concerned also that the botox might make my voice unpassable. This would greatly affect my safety and livelhood, so I am a little scared about that, and the whole choking on water thing. I wrote to Jessie about this and hopefully will hear back after the weekend.
**oh yes, I forgot to answer: the doctor said I have asymmetrical cords plus a vocal tremor. He said my cords were relatively gender neutral as was my without effort fundamental frequency, but that my trained (straining) voice was within the female range. He suggested I delay the surgery and treat the tremor with botox in the meantime. But he left the decision up to me which was incredibly hard, as I'd come all the way here and planned two months off of life. I also cancelled the surgery but haven't done the botox yet, still trying to figure stuff out. I could still do the surgery a week from now but I think maybe I should heed his advice. It's a lot of new information to take in...
I did not do botox until after the surgery from Dr. Kim, I went to a couple EMT doctors here back home in the intervening year and they swore up and down I didn't have the spasmodic dysphonia that he said I had. So they wouldn't give me botox anyway. He almost certainly overdiagnoses the vocal tremors/asymmetrical cords thing, and said I had those too, though they're definitely there to some degree and that doesn't necessarily mean you don't have whatever he says you may have.
I used the year between my two visits to scout out where I would have to go if it turned out I needed botox injections, find out how much it would cost, get to know a couple EMT doctors and someone at the local voice clinic whom I could set appointments through and such. But I was pretty much the same the year after, I just had more information and had went into and came out of depression a little stronger.
Re the original voice, I was referring to trained voice before surgery, yes. I still think mine could be better heh.. I feel like I haven't found my best natural pitch to settle on yet, but I really like the higher range and less effort overall. It doesn't feel like there's a lump blocking my throat if I try to hit or sing high squeaky pitches now.
I can't say one way or the other that you should go through it or should put it off though, that's a decision you have to make, but I doubt most docs will even give you botox just by you asking for it or claiming tremors.. at least mine wouldn't, even with the SD diagnosis because they found no sign of it.
Meiguishui - Dr. Kim told me that it's 1% who have problems like not being able to swallow water after the botox. I had my shot like 5 days ago and haven't that that problem yet. :)
Jess is right about him just about always finding a tremor. I bet most people have a slight one? You can tell if you have one by recording yourself making 'ahh' sound for long long time (keep the pitch constant). If you have a tremor, it will waver at some point and come back. Mine did that about every 5 seconds and was worse at lower pitches.
Amy managed to get Dr Kim to not do Botox on her - she is a trained singer, so the first time she did the normal "aaahhh" thingy with him and he diagnosed vocal tremor. She asked if she may repeat that test, concentrated on not allowing vibrato or impurities in her voice and that time he did not see any tremor. So I guess what he sees is just a rather natural pitch variation that most people have who are not trained singers and concentrate on it in that test. Of course in trans people it will be more, because the voice use is often different for some time already, putting more strain on the voice, causing it generally to be more stressed and strained.
Thanks girls. I really think if I went in and tried again on a better day he little to no tremor. I also suspect my asymmetry might be related to my jaw asymmetry (same side) but maybe just might have to do with alignment. Perhaps I can get a chiropractic adjustment or do some yoga and have things pop back into place. I mean I wonder if they are actually different sized or one is just stretched longer than the other from bad alignment.
We will see. I really don't want to do the botox unless its really necessary, and it seems to me I should take his diagnoses with a grain of salt. That is not quite the approach I'd want to have to take with a surgeon operating on my throat but that's life. However now, since all this has happened, I'm not even sure I'm ready for VFS to be honest. I want it of course, I feel I need it but now I'm considering other things might be more important for now. I think I may need to get my depression and hormones under control before going through such a challenging recovery. This may require going back to the US (I live in Asia) in order to find a proper HRT doctor who knows what they're doing. Since living out here I had to switch to pills after years of injectables and I've been miserable. But that's for another thread.