there seems to be an infinite amount of discussion about "passing" with no answers or solutions. I'm going on the miracle 7 th month of HRT. This is supposed to be the month where a lot of transitioners learn their possible fate of needing FFS or what ever means to be able to blend in enough not to be stoned to death. Sometimes the progress is slower and you won't know for a few years. I'm just totally at a loss as to what to do if after a few years you don't make the cut on being" passible ". Like Your dysphoria doesn't go away with partial dose. Now. your stuck in limbo looking half male and have female. I'm just confused as to the solution. Do you give up transition and find a way of surviving another day. Do you plow ahead and be damned with what others think be it cis or trans . It's obviously going to be rough to choose to ignore public perception. I don't know the answer, I just don't think I've heard a solution to this predicament since being on Susan's for 7 months. I myself won't know for awhile whether or not I'll need to where a full body burka . All I know is that I can't go back to the life I was living pre HRT. It would be nice to have a more accepting world community.
Passing is being comfortable in ones own body and does not care what others might think.
Loosing the fear is truly the key.
Luck
Izzy
As of tomorrow I will have been on hormones for 7 months so I'm at a similar stage.
I definitely don't pass at the moment unless I'm fully made up and wearing a wig.
I'm definitely in the awkward androgynous phase and I think I'll still be in it for another 4-5 months at least.
I would however say that I can feel hrt has a lot more to offer me and I wouldn't be making a decision on ffs for at least another year (not that I'll ever be able to afford it)
It's a funny thing HRT (I'm 2mths on E & 6mths on spiro etc),in a way for me the HRT has made my dysphoria worse, as I'm like really opening up my mind through HRT to a whole new world of being and experiencing all the things a woman does(and I'm sure theres more to come for me, alot more) but I'm still stuck in this slowly androgynising body, which kind of frustrates me more than pre-HRT/T-blockers. I really wish there was some place I could go for like a year or two, like some Trans monastery in the tibetan mountains LOL and comeback a sexy bishe :D But thats not to be I guess. I dont really have any answers for you accept to say I understand totally what you mean, and I dont think there are any real clear cut answers for this stage most of us are in(1st two years, I guess).
But then again, this is why Susans Place(Ive read this site for years) exists tho right? 'Coz there arent any "hey go do this" answers, so we come here for support/help/inspiration & hopefully a good laugh so we can keep going.
Keep smiling Babes, were here for you :)
Mikayla
Wow your reaction to hrt is quite different to mine. My dysphoria just stopped with hrt, no urge to cross dress or to fully transition. I now am in a much better emotional space, life is richer and relationship with myself and with others feel more meaningful. Emotionally I am happy, comfortable and at peace. The incessant noise and self talk has stopped which is a very good thing.
I like the slowly feminising effects of low dose hrt and I am trying to find an A or GQ presentation that works for me as my mind is running well ahead of physical changes and I am definitely comfortable with the emotional changes from hormonal brain re-mapping.
I am enjoying the journey but am not prescriptive as to destination as I have already arrived in a much better place.
Safe travels
Aisla
Who are you taking HRT for ?you or the world around you ? I am a little older than you and the HRT is definately for me, I started it 3 months before my 64th birthday.I will never go back ever , I can't, my hope is to be a tall older lady who blends in with those around me. I don't think that is impossible to achieve as my betterhalf and I are refered to as two old ladies out fishing when we are in the boat. :) Patty
Quote from: mind is quiet now on May 01, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
Passing is being comfortable in ones own body and does not care what others might think.
Loosing the fear is truly the key.
Luck
Izzy
^^^ until you get cat called "->-bleeped-<-!"
Seriously, do people really believe this wishful thinking nonsense?
@stephaniec I think one reason you haven't seen an explanation of what to do if you don't pass is that there isn't one. I feel that each and every one of us is likely to end up with something about our appearance that we are uncomfortable with but that is part of being a woman and being constantly fed impossible beauty standards. I agree with Izzy in that passing has very little to do with the effects hormones have on your body and a great deal more to do with internal acceptance. Have a read through the 10 years on thread for some longer term perspectives.
Rosie
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 12:56:57 AM
^^^ until you get cat called "->-bleeped-<-!"
Seriously, do people really believe this wishful thinking nonsense?
And should you be called by that or any other slur you deal with it, there and then. There is no wishful thinking to what Izzy said, just a deeper awareness of how things work than you seem to have. Tying your satisfaction with yourself to how closely you resemble externally imposed and impossible beauty standards is just as toxic for us as it is for cis women.
Rosie
Quote from: Aisla on May 01, 2014, 11:33:13 PM
Mikayla
Wow your reaction to hrt is quite different to mine. My dysphoria just stopped with hrt, no urge to cross dress or to fully transition. I now am in a much better emotional space, life is richer and relationship with myself and with others feel more meaningful. Emotionally I am happy, comfortable and at peace. The incessant noise and self talk has stopped which is a very good thing.
I like the slowly feminising effects of low dose hrt and I am trying to find an A or GQ presentation that works for me as my mind is running well ahead of physical changes and I am definitely comfortable with the emotional changes from hormonal brain re-mapping.
I am enjoying the journey but am not prescriptive as to destination as I have already arrived in a much better place.
Safe travels
Aisla
Well, tbh by that I meant that as far as my need for wanting to get out there and be accepted as a woman, has probably worsened because basically I believe in the turtle attitude of slow and steady wins the race and I dont wish to go "full time" until Ive been on HRT etc for at least a year or more. I'm trying to do it from perspective in a sensible fashion, but horses for courses I dont judge too hard ppl who wanna just jump in etc. But I'm just impatient lol.
But I'd like to mention I do love the changes that are happening to me and that I'm feeling on the inside, I guess its one of those funny dualities that exists in this universe and really the more I think about it, its prolly just me being impatient, being part of the generation now syndrome I have. I'm guessing I'm not the only one though that feels the joy of changing, but the hurt of still not being exactly who I want to be 'right now'. Patience is something I'm working on. :)
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 12:56:57 AM
^^^ until you get cat called "->-bleeped-<-!"
Seriously, do people really believe this wishful thinking nonsense?
Um yes some of us do! To be honest if somebody ever called me a ->-bleeped-<- it would not ruin my day I'm a lot stronger than that. But then again I've never had anybody call me a ->-bleeped-<- to my face even before I could pass. I don't think your speaking from experience of being out in public.
Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on May 02, 2014, 01:09:51 AM
And should you be called by that or any other slur you deal with it, there and then. There is no wishful thinking to what Izzy said, just a deeper awareness of how things work than you seem to have. Tying your satisfaction with yourself to how closely you resemble externally imposed and impossible beauty standards is just as toxic for us as it is for cis women.
Rosie
Right. Let's see how long that internalized satisfaction lasts when cis world venom is constantly being shouted at you.
Quote from: Heather on May 02, 2014, 01:15:49 AM
Um yes some of us do! To be honest if somebody ever called me a ->-bleeped-<- it would not ruin my day I'm a lot stronger than that. But then again I've never had anybody call me a ->-bleeped-<- to my face even before I could pass. I don't think your speaking from experience of being out in public.
I'm not talking about those who actually pass.
I should have prefaced what I wrote as me lashing out at my own shortcomings as well.
I am very sorry. I don't mean to trigger anyone.
Going to log out for awhile.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 01:23:16 AM
I'm not talking about those who actually pass.
I'm just saying I went out long before I could pass and before I was on hrt. And I was never called names sure they're was some stares and some laughter but nothing I wasn't expecting. And yes while I do pass now it wasn't always the case and I had to go through many months of not passing before I could pass. I started off just like everybody else and make no mistake about it even if I couldn't pass I would still be out there living as myself.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 01:30:45 AM
I should have prefaced what I wrote as me lashing out at my own shortcomings as well.
I am very sorry. I don't mean to trigger anyone.
I'm sorry I wasn't triggered I over reacted a bit. But trust me I have been at that early stage and was scared out of my mind about passing. So I know how you feel and it doesn't last forever and you'll realize it's ok that pass or not it's about being true to yourself.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 01:20:57 AM
Right. Let's see how long that internalized satisfaction lasts when cis world venom is constantly being shouted at you.
It has held up well for the last fourteen months, which is how long I have been full time. There has been no venom.
Rosie
Quote from: mind is quiet now on May 01, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
Passing is being comfortable in ones own body and does not care what others might think.
Loosing the fear is truly the key.
Luck
Izzy
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 12:56:57 AM
^^^ until you get cat called "->-bleeped-<-!"
Seriously, do people really believe this wishful thinking nonsense?
Izzy has it right.. It's not nonsense at all. Nor is it wishful thinking.
What other people think about me isn't really my business. Maybe it is where I live, maybe I do blend in ok. IDK, nobody has clocked me in about a year. I do make an effort to look as feminine as I can, and I'm mostly within the normal female range size wise, but I don't think I look that much like a girl really. What people respond to I think, is that I think I'm a woman, so I act as such, and smile a lot when I feel pretty. What seems to be the case is that because I behave with confidence, and because I believe it, even if the presentation is thin, there is a question. I am pretty androgynous, always polite, almost always pretty friendly. That is what gets reacted to. Being older takes off the pressure some also, as Patty alludes to.
Ya know, what I think it is? I'm happy with me, and that is an attractor. Back in the day when I wanted to die, nobody wanted to get close, now they do. The difference is how I see the world, the people I interact with, and myself. I pass when I think I pass. People are loathe to break the spell of optimism, and so even if I am read, it isn't responded to with invective.
I hope this is true, because for me it works. ;D
Julie
Quote from: mind is quiet now on May 01, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
Passing is being comfortable in ones own body and does not care what others might think.
Loosing the fear is truly the key.
Luck
Izzy
^^^ THIS!
"Passing" to yourself is the most important part of all. The rest is icing on the cake
Quote from: stephaniec on May 01, 2014, 10:03:45 PM
there seems to be an infinite amount of discussion about "passing" with no answers or solutions. I'm going on the miracle 7 th month of HRT. This is supposed to be the month where a lot of transitioners learn their possible fate of needing FFS or what ever means to be able to blend in enough not to be stoned to death. Sometimes the progress is slower and you won't know for a few years. I'm just totally at a loss as to what to do if after a few years you don't make the cut on being" passible ". Like Your dysphoria doesn't go away with partial dose. Now. your stuck in limbo looking half male and have female. I'm just confused as to the solution. Do you give up transition and find a way of surviving another day. Do you plow ahead and be damned with what others think be it cis or trans . It's obviously going to be rough to choose to ignore public perception. I don't know the answer, I just don't think I've heard a solution to this predicament since being on Susan's for 7 months. I myself won't know for awhile whether or not I'll need to where a full body burka . All I know is that I can't go back to the life I was living pre HRT. It would be nice to have a more accepting world community.
Everyone has different views on passing. To me it means almost everything. It's shallow, superficial and many other things, but I'm being honest. I care about my ability to pass and I will do whatever it takes for me to feel comfortable with my appearance. Having said all that, I'm also someone that has a lot of fears. Someone that doesn't actually experience life the way she would like to because she makes passing the be all and end all. The people out there living get out sooner than I do because they are comfortable with themselves. They may be clocked or not, but maybe it doesn't matter to them the way it does for me. There is no one choice or path. Both are valid and have their pros and cons. Everyone has to do what's right for them. Find how you feel and proceed the way that's best for you.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 02, 2014, 12:56:57 AM
^^^ until you get cat called "->-bleeped-<-!"
Seriously, do people really believe this wishful thinking nonsense?
I've dealt with being called a ->-bleeped-<-. It sucks. For me, that is why passing is important. It allows me the ability to be true to myself while blending. I don't have to feel the judgement of society upon me. Then again, those with a strong sense of inner confidence don't let these things drag them down. They take those comments for what they are and continue living their days happily and free. Meanwhile, I obsess over my looks crying that I can't live the life that I want until a certain point. There are tradeoffs to both paths and one has to know there own comfort levels and inner strength. I know passing and that standard is important for me, but those who don't focus on it and let it dictate their lives are probably much happier than I am, at least in the short term.
What I feel I should achieve with hrt is a sense of internal peace and calmness
passing would obviously help with that...
passing is one thing
feeling like you pass is another...
There is no "standard" you have to achieve outside of what you can live with. Just be careful not to set your goals so high that they become unattainable and it could even require some adjustment in your attitude towards yourself in the process. You're an individual and what works for others may or not work for you, so simple answers aren't likely going to present themselves. Just do what you feel you need to do to be comfortable with yourself, that's the important part. If it involves how others see you, then so be it. No one here should be telling you to ignore what you may be terribly concerned with most. Just try not to let it consume you and that could be where some change of thinking on your part may come into play. This is more than just a physical transition, its also a mental and emotional one for you and those around you on a regular basis.
Having friends who are indeed "unpassable" trans women, basically here's the deal...
Whether you "pass" or not, eventually you finish the "transition" process. You reach a point where you realize that this is as feminine as you're going to get, you establish this new "normal," and you go on with life accepting what you have and don't have.
Basically if you don't "pass," after a while you get used to the stares, used to having a "queer" appearance, or voice, or whatever it is that outs you as trans, and you just stop thinking about it because it becomes normal. Basically, you realize that you're doing the best you can with what you have to work with. And you realize that the problem isn't with you for not living up to some sort of fabricated ideal, the problem is with the society that perpetuates those ideals in the first place. You're just doing what makes you happy. And those who have a problem with it are the ones who are in the wrong.
So yeah... that's basically what most of my "unpassable" MtF friends say. They realize that they have a right to be happy in spite of not living up to societal "ideals." And when worst comes to worst, they keep a carry letter with them so that they can prove that they really are legally allowed in female spaces, which eases a lot of the worry.
Over time, whatever state you end up in permanently, your brain will adjust to whatever that new default "normal" is, and you'll quit consciously thinking about it. The brain is funny like that.
Carrie,
I thought I was the only one who carried documentation in their purse. ;) Yeah, I guess I knew I wasn't, but finally having my driver's license with the gender marker 'F' is a psychic comfort. I've never yet had to prove anything, but I still have a long wait until I can get my surgery letters. I think till I'm post-op I'll keep my envelope from my doc and the court handy. Kind of sad that I feel this is necessary, but I do.
Julie
Managing your expectations and being comfortable being in your skin like Izzy said. Passing isn't looking like a cover girl, it's being your authentic woman. Part of that is looking in the mirror and liking what you see, but it is mostly about you liking who you are. Even if you seem 'unpassable', you will be yourself at long last.
This site has a lot of great information but it seems (in my short time here) to be a fear magnifier for us as well. We mostly talk about the difficulty of living up to the definition of femininity we see in the media. Those unreal expectations put on us by society are the most damaging thing ever, more that getting tr&y'd on the street or discriminated against. The harder we try to match the picture, the more we see the parts where we fall short, it's a losing game and the only one who we hurt is ourselves.
We MtF can learn a lot from the gender queer folks who defy societal expectations and live their life as they want to. You need some balls to be a trans woman in this man's world.
So says an old bull dyke looking ->-bleeped-<- with 25 years of happy life behind her. It's up to you to take the meat and leave the bone.
Quote from: MikaylaGC on May 01, 2014, 10:47:30 PM
It's a funny thing HRT (I'm 2mths on E & 6mths on spiro etc),in a way for me the HRT has made my dysphoria worse, as I'm like really opening up my mind through HRT to a whole new world of being and experiencing all the things a woman does(and I'm sure theres more to come for me, alot more) but I'm still stuck in this slowly androgynising body, which kind of frustrates me more than pre-HRT/T-blockers. I really wish there was some place I could go for like a year or two, like some Trans monastery in the tibetan mountains LOL and comeback a sexy bishe :D But thats not to be I guess. I dont really have any answers for you accept to say I understand totally what you mean, and I dont think there are any real clear cut answers for this stage most of us are in(1st two years, I guess).
But then again, this is why Susans Place(Ive read this site for years) exists tho right? 'Coz there arent any "hey go do this" answers, so we come here for support/help/inspiration & hopefully a good laugh so we can keep going.
Keep smiling Babes, were here for you :)
I think the trans monastery is a great idea.
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...
Quote from: nikkit72 on May 03, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...
Quoted simply for truth..
Many of the women here apply impossible standards to themselves and make themselves miserable in the process.
The seventh month??? Wow, am I out of it or what?
Actually, I guess makes sense for me since I try not to be ruled by rules. Especially those that say things like THou Shall Have FFS, Thou Shall Have GRS, Thou Shall Have BA, etc etc.
I have a simple standard, or reality check, for passing. On a Friday evening, or Saturday late morning, go to the grocery store and spend some quality time in the check-out line. Look around at the other women there. As in really look.
My second reality check is HRT related in a way. How do You feel when you see yourself in the mirror. I guess for me after 7 months or so I started to feel a little better seeing my top half naked. Seeing the beginnings of a body I can be comfortable in was a great self confidence booster.
At around that point in time I guess is when I started to feel the need to venture out into the real world as the real me. What mattered was how doing that made me feel. Alive for the first time in many decades. Genuine. That mostly comes from the inside I think.
What other "Standard" is there greater then feeling genuine?
Genuine is personal. Mine alone. I own it. We've spent a lifetime trying in vain trying to live up societies "Standard" for how we were born. Does which society setting the rules matter? I think not.
I want my life back. NO... I want MY life. I never had one yet. I lived another's, not mine The life I want for me. I already tried living up to a "Standard" I did not set. Doomed for failure from the start. If I learned one lesson these past years, it is I know what does not work
If anyone needed convincing that women come in all shape and sizes, this little video might help! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtAy0AhKKsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtAy0AhKKsk)
Hugs.
Donna
Somewhat off subject but for the Europeans here who are familiar with Ryanair, Easyjet etc... this should also ring a bell. :D :D :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAg0lUYHHFc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAg0lUYHHFc)
Sorry, I found it so funny I couldn't resist!
P.S. ...and BTW, there is a direct link between both of these performances and the theme of this thread.
Quote from: nikkit72 on May 03, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...
Lol, That would be part of why I'm in therapy. It's a great point when you think about it.
To be honest, I really should have done more prep work on my self esteem before moving forward. Insecurities are difficult to fight back while in transition. It's doable and I'm trying, but all the stress of a transition makes it harder to sort things out. That would be something I learned while transitioning that I wish I could pass on to those just starting out. It will make transitioning so much easier and that's a good thing considering how hard it really is.
Society *does* apply these standards to cis women... it's just that instead of getting called transsexual, they get told they're ugly (including vicious, horrible catcalls). And it's basically true; the vast majority learn to ignore [some of] it, and the ones who don't end up with eating disorders, psychological damage, etc. This society can be downright toxic on the subject of female beauty.
(Cis women don't face the same risks of violence rooted in transphobia, of course; I'm talking specifically about societal beauty standards.)
Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 03, 2014, 09:43:11 AM
Society *does* apply these standards to cis women... it's just that instead of getting called transsexual, they get told they're ugly (including vicious, horrible catcalls). And it's basically true; the vast majority learn to ignore [some of] it, and the ones who don't end up with eating disorders, psychological damage, etc. This society can be downright toxic on the subject of female beauty.
(Cis women don't face the same risks of violence rooted in transphobia, of course; I'm talking specifically about societal beauty standards.)
Yeah, whether you are cis or trans, there are plenty of unfair standards that women deal with. I'm glad that I'm transitioning, but I miss the light appearance standards that men have. If I wasn't judged to the level women recieve, I'd feel a little more okay about how I look. And sadly it's all me doing the judging on myself.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 09:50:09 AM
And sadly it's all me doing the judging on myself.
We are often our worse enemies. I suspect in some strange sick way a vain attempt to try to otherwise convince ourselves that this path is not a good idea
Whew... 7 months? I remember when I was at 7 months. I thought I was lookin pretty good! Now, I look at my 7 through even the 11th month and think I had a long way to go then in comparison to where I'm at now.
Passing in the sense of actually being perceived as a cis female is very rare in the trans community. Yes, you may pass in a fleeting moment such as at the check out stand, but it's rare when a trans female can, for example, get a job working with the public and go undetected for months. I think our expectations are high given the genetic dispositions many of us will not be able to overcome (voice, height, body shape, hand size, skull size, etc). I think this is the type of "passing" the OP is concerned with, not the type where you accept yourself and nobody bothers you (which imo isn't passing, it's called having self esteem and that does have rewards).
I'll also say that it's really hard to get over the fact that you have lived as a male before. There's history you have to cover (or at least manipulate) when socializing. That alone can cause dysphoria. There's a lot that we miss out on even if we do pass 100% of the time. Being transsexual is a really crappy hand in life. It's every bit as disabling as the worst types of anxiety disorders. And that I don't believe will ever change no matter how accepting society becomes.
Quote from: nikkit72 on May 03, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...
Truer words were never spoken. The cis woman gets bombarded from early childhood and there are many who grow up to be unsatisfied and unhappy because they can't meet those expectations and be true to themselves. If we trans women just refuse to buy into the hype, we'll all be happier and maybe help tone down the din for every woman.
LTL : I hear you, and it sucks. :( I'm my own harshest critic, too.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 10:00:34 AM
Passing in the sense of actually being perceived as a cis female is very rare in the trans community. Yes, you may pass in a fleeting moment such as at the check out stand, but it's rare when a trans female can, for example, get a job working with the public and go undetected for months.
In some ways this cispass depends on the woman, so maybe my experience isn't universal, but I truly believe you are wrong about the rarity of passing completely. The transition experience is so hard in part because you're always comparing yourself to some ideal you hold to be 'real girl' in your head. It is also hard because you still have some male expression that has yet to fully blend in, though you are far enough along that you probably have little left of the old you. In your example, sure there may be someone in the store who wondered for a moment, but that really is unlikely to be true of everyone. Self esteem / confidence does play a role, more about that below
I think our expectations are high given the genetic dispositions many of us will not be able to overcome (voice, height, body shape, hand size, skull size, etc). I think this is the type of "passing" the OP is concerned with, not the type where you accept yourself and nobody bothers you (which imo isn't passing, it's called having self esteem and that does have rewards).
Believe it or not, the spectrum of woman born is really wide. It spans from petite to WNBA center in terms of body type/size, it is hard for women on the WNBA side to pass as cis, and hard for the petite to get beyond their stature as well. We fit in all along the spectrum and fit in just fine. Stressing about things you can't change won't make us pass any better and may make us seem false in our presentation because we don't seem comfortable in our own skin. What you mistake as self esteem IS passing, and it is a trait of true womanhood that many cis girls wish they could attain.
I'll also say that it's really hard to get over the fact that you have lived as a male before. There's history you have to cover (or at least manipulate) when socializing. That alone can cause dysphoria. There's a lot that we miss out on even if we do pass 100% of the time. Being transsexual is a really crappy hand in life. It's every bit as disabling as the worst types of anxiety disorders. And that I don't believe will ever change no matter how accepting society becomes.
This is true, having to make up a past is hard and once you set out to deceive, you are really being trapped in a web of lies... so don't go overboard. For example, it isn't necessary to know the names of every cabbage patch doll from your childhood to prove your womanhood, or to make up a story about your periods to 'fit in'. Just don't buy into that baloney. It is fine to say I didn't play with dolls much as a kid, or 'puberty was hard for me'. All of that is true and isn't a tell that gives you away. Heck, lots of girls were tomboys and played boy games, you're just like them. Lots of girls didn't get along with their moms or had a rough childhood or weren't accepted by the other kids, which is like a lot of us lived through. Focus on your shared experience not on what you think might be the ideal girlhood experience. I think that this goes to the heart of the OP's question - and the answer is to keep it simple and accept yourself as just as screwed up as the rest of the women in this world.
It is a terrible choice to have to make. If we could all be 'normal' it would be much easier for us... except that there is no normal and there isn't really a choice except the choice live as yourself rather than die as someone else.
With love
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 10:00:34 AM
I think our expectations are high given the genetic dispositions many of us will not be able to overcome (voice, height, body shape, hand size, skull size, etc). I think this is the type of "passing" the OP is concerned with, not the type where you accept yourself and nobody bothers you (which imo isn't passing, it's called having self esteem and that does have rewards).
I'll also say that it's really hard to get over the fact that you have lived as a male before. There's history you have to cover (or at least manipulate) when socializing. That alone can cause dysphoria. There's a lot that we miss out on even if we do pass 100% of the time. Being transsexual is a really crappy hand in life. It's every bit as disabling as the worst types of anxiety disorders. And that I don't believe will ever change no matter how accepting society becomes.
Yeah, that having lived as male is a tough one. I could prolly pass forever as I don't have any male markers like a lrage anything, I'm tiny even for a woman and not just height wise but everything else too, my shoulders are like 13 inches wide, but even now women start talking to me about stuff like having a family and getting preggers and all this other stuff and I just kind of clam up. I mean what I really want to do is go stealth and just kind of vanish, but where did I come from, who are my people, what was my childhood like, first BFs, prom, period, and on and on and on the list goes. So, while I'm lucky in one respect in the other I constantly find myself growing ever more doubtful that I'll ever really be able to escape my trans status. It seems like trying to get to Mars. I might make it there but then I'm stuck, alone and have no way of making it back. Sometimes, I just think I should detransition and just try to lie as a male again. the fact that my BF is moving to Maryland for work and I can't leave Philadelphia or I'll be arrested, really isn't helping matters. Passing really isn't everything and it brings with it a whole other set of problems, some of which are worse than not-passing, cause it becomes that much harder to accept being trans when you know you can basically escape but your whole life would have to be a lie. I don't know if I can live like that. It's like that movie a History of Violence or A Talented Mr. Ripley. Neither of which have happy endings. In the former, he does escape his violent past, but it comes back to haunt him. Ripley has to kill everyone. So be careful what you wish for.
QuoteI mean what I really want to do is go stealth and just kind of vanish, but where did I come from, who are my people, what was my childhood like, first BFs, prom, period, and on and on and on the list goes.
Yeah, it's tough. But I get what Ducks is saying in the post above. We tend to forget that lots of cis girls and boys didn't have the ideal, stereotypical childhood either. I mean, I was a girl - but no prom, virtually no female friends, a lot of missed schooling, etc. And there are plenty of girls who just didn't date until adulthood - either because of strict parents, shyness, etc. There are even cis girls who never got periods. If you pass well, I think you could pretty much say anything about your past and not raise eyebrows. Well, aside from obvious male specific stuff.
Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Yeah, it's tough. But I get what Ducks is saying in the post above. We tend to forget that lots of cis girls and boys didn't have the ideal, stereotypical childhood either. I mean, I was a girl - but no prom, virtually no female friends, a lot of missed schooling, etc. And there are plenty of girls who just didn't date until adulthood - either because of strict parents, shyness, etc. There are even cis girls who never got periods. If you pass well, I think you could pretty much say anything about your past and not raise eyebrows. Well, aside from obvious male specific stuff.
That's true. I just think when talking about appearance standards, while hard on everyone, it's a bit trans specific when we talk about passing. I mean we are all starting out for a "male" presentation and trying to be seen and accepted as female. Beauty standards aside, most cis women don't get mistaken or ided as men if they don't meet the standards. That's not to say they don't struggle because of these standards and have many other unique issues, but generally they are accepted as women and didn't start off with a male appearance/features. I mean some do, but most don't. As a transwoman, your options are to pass and be accepted as your gender or to not and have people see you as a guy in their head. And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.
Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 11:14:31 AM
1) In some ways this cispass depends on the woman, so maybe my experience isn't universal, but I truly believe you are wrong about the rarity of passing completely. The transition experience is so hard in part because you're always comparing yourself to some ideal you hold to be 'real girl' in your head. It is also hard because you still have some male expression that has yet to fully blend in, though you are far enough along that you probably have little left of the old you. In your example, sure there may be someone in the store who wondered for a moment, but that really is unlikely to be true of everyone. Self esteem / confidence does play a role, more about that below
2) Believe it or not, the spectrum of woman born is really wide. It spans from petite to WNBA center in terms of body type/size, it is hard for women on the WNBA side to pass as cis, and hard for the petite to get beyond their stature as well. We fit in all along the spectrum and fit in just fine. Stressing about things you can't change won't make us pass any better and may make us seem false in our presentation because we don't seem comfortable in our own skin. What you mistake as self esteem IS passing, and it is a trait of true womanhood that many cis girls wish they could attain.
3) This is true, having to make up a past is hard and once you set out to deceive, you are really being trapped in a web of lies... so don't go overboard. For example, it isn't necessary to know the names of every cabbage patch doll from your childhood to prove your womanhood, or to make up a story about your periods to 'fit in'. Just don't buy into that baloney. It is fine to say I didn't play with dolls much as a kid, or 'puberty was hard for me'. All of that is true and isn't a tell that gives you away. Heck, lots of girls were tomboys and played boy games, you're just like them. Lots of girls didn't get along with their moms or had a rough childhood or weren't accepted by the other kids, which is like a lot of us lived through. Focus on your shared experience not on what you think might be the ideal girlhood experience. I think that this goes to the heart of the OP's question - and the answer is to keep it simple and accept yourself as just as screwed up as the rest of the women in this world.
It is a terrible choice to have to make. If we could all be 'normal' it would be much easier for us... except that there is no normal and there isn't really a choice except the choice live as yourself rather than die as someone else.
With love
I'd like to start by saying I absolutely respect your opinion and love a clean debate on any issue. I hope this can stay civil.
1) If you think that my post was about some ideal perception and the worry of being a "real girl", or any of that noise, you've mistaken what I've posted entirely. The fact is, in any given environment over a certain length of time, things are bound to slip up or slip out, a friend may mention something vague and someone may put something together. Voice, letting something slip about your past, responding to a male pronoun, these things can absolutely happen. Furthermore, you can be as naturally blending as far as self expression and confidence and blah blah blah as you can be, but if some feature sticks out and clocks you, well.. the only thing self expression and confidence is going to do for you is gain respect.
I know TONS of transgender people. In Louisiana, we (surprisingly) have a pretty strong coalition (both MtF and FtM). Not only that, but in my city, transgender people are very common to come across. I can tell you from being friends with so many that it is absolutely rare for MtFs to pass with extreme consistency given their stories and given what other cis people actually say when the topic comes up. It's not just confidence and self esteem. You think Gigi on Youtube passes with any consistency? Anybody who's been exposed to gay men in their lives would be able to tell that she's transgender. That's not a physical appearance issue, it's an intangible quality of the difference between men and women. People probably don't give her crap because she does display self confidence. That is a huge shield and is the difference between being respected and being called derogatory names.
2) You're right, stressing things you can't change wont help you pass. Self esteem will
HELP you pass, but it's not going to make a difference if somebody notices due to a physical or personality trait. Plenty of cis gender women are NEVER believed to be transgender simply because they lack self esteem. I would argue 99% of the ones with self esteem issues aren't ever mistaken for transgender. Being comfortable (or more so than before) is the point in transitioning, it is not a end all be all of passing. Frankly, it just sounds like some people would like to say they pass, so they label self esteem as passing. And as far as being normal, honey... where I live you have to be a little off :) and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the USA!
3) The problem is, most females want to socialize more than most men do. This is well documented in psychology and I can totally attest to this. I'd like to believe that it's no different in the MtF community since we have a lot of similarities with our cis gender counterparts when it comes to how our brain operates. At least I do! Do I lie? Not really. But I sure as hell manipulate the truth. Why don't I get periods? Because something in my central nervous system (my brain) doesn't recognize that I have ovaries. This forces me to take HRT, too. Is that a lie? No, it's not. But do I wish I could be fully honest and just be a cis gender female? Uh yeah... and that does tend to lead to dysphoria. I don't lie about being a tomboy growing up, and I am very honest with what I watched as a kid. It still causes dysphoria because when I reflect on it, I wish I didn't feel pressured as a child to watch that stuff. I really wanted to play with barbies and watch care bears when I was 6, and I feel robbed because of it! It's an absolute factor in a lot of things dysphoria related, and it makes me not even want to talk about what I did growing up because I wanted to be something else. And hey, I like being a little off. New Orleans wouldn't be worth living in if there weren't any weirdos here :D I take total pride in that. But these factors do not really address passing.
I still stand by my opinion that passing is not completely equal to self esteem. Yes, both of them help each other... I agree with that completely. I know I am seen as cis gender most of the time. I worked in a place for 8 months where people made fun of my transgender roommate and still couldn't put together that I'm transgender myself. Hell, my doctor thought I was FtM when she was seeing me at first. But I wouldn't doubt that a couple people here and there when I'm out in the real world do clock me... they just respect me because I carry myself well. Does that mean I'm passing during that time? Apparently not! But in my experience, knowing as many transgender people as I know (4 of us live on my block and dozens of us attend regular meetings) and hearing their stories and seeing them in person, these are my conclusions.
Again, with great respect and hoping the easiest life for us all :)
Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 03, 2014, 11:55:23 AM
Yeah, that having lived as male is a tough one. I could prolly pass forever as I don't have any male markers like a lrage anything, I'm tiny even for a woman and not just height wise but everything else too, my shoulders are like 13 inches wide, but even now women start talking to me about stuff like having a family and getting preggers and all this other stuff and I just kind of clam up. I mean what I really want to do is go stealth and just kind of vanish, but where did I come from, who are my people, what was my childhood like, first BFs, prom, period, and on and on and on the list goes. So, while I'm lucky in one respect in the other I constantly find myself growing ever more doubtful that I'll ever really be able to escape my trans status. It seems like trying to get to Mars. I might make it there but then I'm stuck, alone and have no way of making it back. Sometimes, I just think I should detransition and just try to lie as a male again. the fact that my BF is moving to Maryland for work and I can't leave Philadelphia or I'll be arrested, really isn't helping matters. Passing really isn't everything and it brings with it a whole other set of problems, some of which are worse than not-passing, cause it becomes that much harder to accept being trans when you know you can basically escape but your whole life would have to be a lie. I don't know if I can live like that. It's like that movie a History of Violence or A Talented Mr. Ripley. Neither of which have happy endings. In the former, he does escape his violent past, but it comes back to haunt him. Ripley has to kill everyone. So be careful what you wish for.
I understand where you're coming from. I've turned a few transgender friends off by saying passing comes with a set of problems that are just difficult to pinpoint. It's kind of like if you don't pass, at least it's out there, ya know? But at the same time, passing makes you not want to be seen as transgender because you absolutely know there's a difference in how people treat cis gender and transgender people. But then again, the same people that are turned off by this observation are the same ones that respond "At least you are being treated as a cis gender female". And this is true too. I think counting your blessings is one way to just get over it. I do it every day. I am so grateful that I'm 5'3" and can rock small size tops. I'm very, very grateful that I haven't been misgendered in IDK how long. I'm extremely grateful that I can go out and get a job, and my employer will send me to the public restroom that is locked by key, and give me the female key. These are things that, if I didn't have, I don't know if I could go on either...
I believe in a God, and I think God never gives us anything we cannot handle. God knew I can't handle not going through transition without being perceived as female. If I'd have gone this far and still couldn't pass, I'd be considering suicide by now. I hope this helps you find some things about yourself that you can be grateful for.
I completely agree with Alaina. While self esteem and confidence are important (things that I lack and need to develop), your appearance will always matter. People gender with their eyes. Things can be interpreted differently and all, but there are some core things that are picked up. This is why I stress over my appearance and believe it will matter in the end.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 12:33:35 PM
Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Yeah, it's tough. But I get what Ducks is saying in the post above. We tend to forget that lots of cis girls and boys didn't have the ideal, stereotypical childhood either. I mean, I was a girl - but no prom, virtually no female friends, a lot of missed schooling, etc. And there are plenty of girls who just didn't date until adulthood - either because of strict parents, shyness, etc. There are even cis girls who never got periods. If you pass well, I think you could pretty much say anything about your past and not raise eyebrows. Well, aside from obvious male specific stuff.
That's true. I just think when talking about appearance standards, while hard on everyone, it's a bit trans specific when we talk about passing. I mean we are all starting out for a "male" presentation and trying to be seen and accepted as female. Beauty standards aside, most cis women don't get mistaken or ided as men if they don't meet the standards. That's not to say they don't struggle because of these standards and have many other unique issues, but generally they are accepted as women and didn't start off with a male appearance/features. I mean some do, but most don't. As a transwoman, your options are to pass and be accepted as your gender or to not and have people see you as a guy in their head. And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.
I think we're talking about two different things. I just meant that not having a stereotypical girlhood will probably not cause alarm.
Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 01:10:29 PM
That's true. I just think when talking about appearance standards, while hard on everyone, it's a bit trans specific when we talk about passing. I mean we are all starting out for a "male" presentation and trying to be seen and accepted as female. Beauty standards aside, most cis women don't get mistaken or ided as men if they don't meet the standards. That's not to say they don't struggle because of these standards and have many other unique issues, but generally they are accepted as women and didn't start off with a male appearance/features. I mean some do, but most don't. As a transwoman, your options are to pass and be accepted as your gender or to not and have people see you as a guy in their head. And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.
I think we're talking about two different things. I just meant that not having a stereotypical girlhood will probably not cause alarm.
Thing is, tell a group of women that you've never had a period. They're going to be jealous enough to ask you why, lol. I'd rather not talk about it does raise eyebrows in a female only group. Yeah, there are things you can say, but some people do not plan for these things. There are lots of things women go through that they talk among themselves about that, if you stray away, it's going to get a "what wait really??!" response, and if you don't have an appropriate response, it'll raise eyebrows. It's more of a dance that would be a whole lot easier if you weren't transgender.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 12:33:35 PM
And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.
LTL, I don't buy your comment about cis people not understanding. Every cis woman in the world understands that pretty girls are more embraced in society than those who are not pretty. Sheesh, it's the fundamental truth in female society, not a trans issue that cis can't understand. Just like most cis women aren't held up as beautiful, most trans women won't be either. Some are, and yahoo for them, but it is not the reality for most cis women today, why should it need to be ours?
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 01:14:24 PM
Thing is, tell a group of women that you've never had a period. They're going to be jealous enough to ask you why, lol. I'd rather not talk about it does raise eyebrows in a female only group. Yeah, there are things you can say, but some people do not plan for these things. There are lots of things women go through that they talk among themselves about that, if you stray away, it's going to get a "what wait really??!" response, and if you don't have an appropriate response, it'll raise eyebrows. It's more of a dance that would be a whole lot easier if you weren't transgender.
Oh. Well, I did have periods, so I don't know on that part. But I was seen as somebody 'odd' for a female what with experiences and behavior and such. Mostly, I think people found it amusing/interesting. But then again, I knew I was born female so, I suppose I would have taken it differently had I been a trans girl.
Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 01:22:20 PM
Oh. Well, I did have periods, so I don't know on that part. But I was seen as somebody 'odd' for a female what with experiences and behavior and such. Mostly, I think people found it amusing/interesting. But then again, I knew I was born female so, I suppose I would have taken it differently had I been a trans girl.
Yeah well.. most men don't get asked about their periods. It's easier to keep quiet when you're not asked a question :D
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 01:23:58 PM
Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 01:22:20 PM
Oh. Well, I did have periods, so I don't know on that part. But I was seen as somebody 'odd' for a female what with experiences and behavior and such. Mostly, I think people found it amusing/interesting. But then again, I knew I was born female so, I suppose I would have taken it differently had I been a trans girl.
Yeah well.. most men don't get asked about their periods. It's easier to keep quiet when you're not asked a question :D
Oh I meant when I lived as female. But you're right, I don't know what it's like for a trans girl. Honestly though, I really don't recall ever being asked about periods as a female, except at the doctor. Not denying it might happen.
But anyway, my point was that I really don't think not having an ideal girlhood causes much alarm. I mean, they may ask why. But the first thing on their minds isn't going to be 'oh, she must be trans'. Even if you said you were on a boy's soccer team or something, you could probably make it sound believable.
True. I think what my point is, is that sometimes in explaining the why, maybe it might not come across as it adding up. There's always ways to make things sound believable, but you have to think of some things on the fly and that may lead to mistakes.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 12:51:01 PM
I'd like to start by saying I absolutely respect your opinion and love a clean debate on any issue. I hope this can stay civil.
1) If you think that my post was about some ideal perception and the worry of being a "real girl", or any of that noise, you've mistaken what I've posted entirely. The fact is, in any given environment over a certain length of time, things are bound to slip up or slip out, a friend may mention something vague and someone may put something together. Voice, letting something slip about your past, responding to a male pronoun, these things can absolutely happen. Furthermore, you can be as naturally blending as far as self expression and confidence and blah blah blah as you can be, but if some feature sticks out and clocks you, well.. the only thing self expression and confidence is going to do for you is gain respect.
I know TONS of transgender people. In Louisiana, we (surprisingly) have a pretty strong coalition (both MtF and FtM). Not only that, but in my city, transgender people are very common to come across. I can tell you from being friends with so many that it is absolutely rare for MtFs to pass with extreme consistency given their stories and given what other cis people actually say when the topic comes up. It's not just confidence and self esteem. You think Gigi on Youtube passes with any consistency? Anybody who's been exposed to gay men in their lives would be able to tell that she's transgender. That's not a physical appearance issue, it's an intangible quality of the difference between men and women. People probably don't give her crap because she does display self confidence. That is a huge shield and is the difference between being respected and being called derogatory names.
2) You're right, stressing things you can't change wont help you pass. Self esteem will HELP you pass, but it's not going to make a difference if somebody notices due to a physical or personality trait. Plenty of cis gender women are NEVER believed to be transgender simply because they lack self esteem. I would argue 99% of the ones with self esteem issues aren't ever mistaken for transgender. Being comfortable (or more so than before) is the point in transitioning, it is not a end all be all of passing. Frankly, it just sounds like some people would like to say they pass, so they label self esteem as passing. And as far as being normal, honey... where I live you have to be a little off :) and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the USA!
3) The problem is, most females want to socialize more than most men do. This is well documented in psychology and I can totally attest to this. I'd like to believe that it's no different in the MtF community since we have a lot of similarities with our cis gender counterparts when it comes to how our brain operates. At least I do! Do I lie? Not really. But I sure as hell manipulate the truth. Why don't I get periods? Because something in my central nervous system (my brain) doesn't recognize that I have ovaries. This forces me to take HRT, too. Is that a lie? No, it's not. But do I wish I could be fully honest and just be a cis gender female? Uh yeah... and that does tend to lead to dysphoria. I don't lie about being a tomboy growing up, and I am very honest with what I watched as a kid. It still causes dysphoria because when I reflect on it, I wish I didn't feel pressured as a child to watch that stuff. I really wanted to play with barbies and watch care bears when I was 6, and I feel robbed because of it! It's an absolute factor in a lot of things dysphoria related, and it makes me not even want to talk about what I did growing up because I wanted to be something else. And hey, I like being a little off. New Orleans wouldn't be worth living in if there weren't any weirdos here :D I take total pride in that. But these factors do not really address passing.
I still stand by my opinion that passing is not completely equal to self esteem. Yes, both of them help each other... I agree with that completely. I know I am seen as cis gender most of the time. I worked in a place for 8 months where people made fun of my transgender roommate and still couldn't put together that I'm transgender myself. Hell, my doctor thought I was FtM when she was seeing me at first. But I wouldn't doubt that a couple people here and there when I'm out in the real world do clock me... they just respect me because I carry myself well. Does that mean I'm passing during that time? Apparently not! But in my experience, knowing as many transgender people as I know (4 of us live on my block and dozens of us attend regular meetings) and hearing their stories and seeing them in person, these are my conclusions.
Again, with great respect and hoping the easiest life for us all :)
^^^ Wow. And a hush falls over the crowd.
Alainaluvsu - Thank You.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 01:46:25 PM
True. I think what my point is, is that sometimes in explaining the why, maybe it might not come across as it adding up. There's always ways to make things sound believable, but you have to think of some things on the fly and that may lead to mistakes.
I think in time after you've been through this type of thing you learn by trial and error, but one time I was on the El and this one woman started talking to me and this other woman started talking to me and started talking about very female related stuff that nobody has ever said to me as a male and I just kinda winged it. I don't know how I came across but I got off a stop early to get out of the situation. Women talk to me out of the blue all the time now. And it's been happening for a couple months now but I'm sure I came across at the very least as a weirdo.
I mean there are just things you don't plan for. You really can't plan transition so I the one piece of advice I'd give is don't try. In January people where calling me ugly this and that and now it's all "you're so beautiful" or every man has a comment and wants to talk. This guy was pushing his baby the other day and literally asked e to come with hi and "get to know him." One guy the other day got really mad that I wouldn't talk to him cause I was outside smoking and he started following me around but luvkily my BF came out and that ended real fast, since he's pretty big. But, he's leaving, at the very least for the summer, and who knows if he'll even come back. So, right now, by June 1, I'll be all alone. I have no friends as I abandoned them all as I simply don't ant to associate with them anymore. It's not just transtioning, it was just time to move on. I joined this queer women's book club, which wil be a bit odd, since I really am not attracted to women, but at least they will understand my problems. The lesbian community in Philly is very, very trans friendly.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 03, 2014, 02:04:14 PM
I think in time after you've been through this type of thing you learn by trial and error, but one time I was on the El and this one woman started talking to me and this other woman started talking to me and started talking about very female related stuff that nobody has ever said to me as a male and I just kinda winged it. I don't know how I came across but I got off a stop early to get out of the situation. Women talk to me out of the blue all the time now. And it's been happening for a couple months now but I'm sure I came across at the very least as a weirdo.
I mean there are just things you don't plan for. You really can't plan transition so I the one piece of advice I'd give is don't try. In January people where calling me ugly this and that and now it's all "you're so beautiful" or every man has a comment and wants to talk. This guy was pushing his baby the other day and literally asked e to come with hi and "get to know him." One guy the other day got really mad that I wouldn't talk to him cause I was outside smoking and he started following me around but luvkily my BF came out and that ended real fast, since he's pretty big. But, he's leaving, at the very least for the summer, and who knows if he'll even come back. So, right now, by June 1, I'll be all alone. I have no friends as I abandoned them all as I simply don't ant to associate with them anymore. It's not just transtioning, it was just time to move on. I joined this queer women's book club, which wil be a bit odd, since I really am not attracted to women, but at least they will understand my problems. The lesbian community in Philly is very, very trans friendly.
I really hope you find some things you love about yourself so you can make the right decisions to go on. I always have you in my heart hon :)
But yeah, winging it does help. Sometimes it's simple, but at the same time it doesn't feel exactly genuine and that does cause dysphoria. For me at least. Personally, I've not had any serious issues with transition (and I am very, very lucky for that), but I can see plenty of opportunities to slip and how people do it. It's just one of those things...
Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 01:18:04 PM
LTL, I don't buy your comment about cis people not understanding. Every cis woman in the world understands that pretty girls are more embraced in society than those who are not pretty. Sheesh, it's the fundamental truth in female society, not a trans issue that cis can't understand. Just like most cis women aren't held up as beautiful, most trans women won't be either. Some are, and yahoo for them, but it is not the reality for most cis women today, why should it need to be ours?
I think I conveyed what I meant poorly. Cis women go through a lot with beauty standards and it impacts them, maybe even more than us given their early socialization; however, they will always pass as female for the most part. They usually don't have to worry about being gendered male and may not fully understand what passing as a transwoman may be like as that usually isn't an issue form them but is almost always one for us.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 02:45:31 PM
Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 01:18:04 PM
LTL, I don't buy your comment about cis people not understanding. Every cis woman in the world understands that pretty girls are more embraced in society than those who are not pretty. Sheesh, it's the fundamental truth in female society, not a trans issue that cis can't understand. Just like most cis women aren't held up as beautiful, most trans women won't be either. Some are, and yahoo for them, but it is not the reality for most cis women today, why should it need to be ours?
I think I conveyed what I meant poorly. Cis women go through a lot with beauty standards and it impacts them, maybe even more than us given their early socialization; however, they will always pass as female for the most part. They usually don't have to worry about being gendered male and may not fully understand what passing as a transwoman may be like as that usually isn't an issue form them but is almost always one for us.
Yeah, having to worry about being gendered female, let alone attractive adds another layer to it. Some cis women do have to deal with masculine features and misgendering. But the difference is that while it may hurt, they know they were born female. So, it may make them feel less attractive and less womanly, but not quite in the same way. Maybe that's the kind of thing to strive for - confidence in yourself as a woman so that being misgendered doesn't mean much.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 12:51:01 PM
I'd like to start by saying I absolutely respect your opinion and love a clean debate on any issue. I hope this can stay civil.
1) If you think that my post was about some ideal perception and the worry of being a "real girl", or any of that noise, you've mistaken what I've posted entirely. The fact is, in any given environment over a certain length of time, things are bound to slip up or slip out, a friend may mention something vague and someone may put something together. Voice, letting something slip about your past, responding to a male pronoun, these things can absolutely happen. Furthermore, you can be as naturally blending as far as self expression and confidence and blah blah blah as you can be, but if some feature sticks out and clocks you, well.. the only thing self expression and confidence is going to do for you is gain respect.
I know TONS of transgender people. In Louisiana, we (surprisingly) have a pretty strong coalition (both MtF and FtM). Not only that, but in my city, transgender people are very common to come across. I can tell you from being friends with so many that it is absolutely rare for MtFs to pass with extreme consistency given their stories and given what other cis people actually say when the topic comes up. It's not just confidence and self esteem. You think Gigi on Youtube passes with any consistency? Anybody who's been exposed to gay men in their lives would be able to tell that she's transgender. That's not a physical appearance issue, it's an intangible quality of the difference between men and women. People probably don't give her crap because she does display self confidence. That is a huge shield and is the difference between being respected and being called derogatory names.
2) You're right, stressing things you can't change wont help you pass. Self esteem will HELP you pass, but it's not going to make a difference if somebody notices due to a physical or personality trait. Plenty of cis gender women are NEVER believed to be transgender simply because they lack self esteem. I would argue 99% of the ones with self esteem issues aren't ever mistaken for transgender. Being comfortable (or more so than before) is the point in transitioning, it is not a end all be all of passing. Frankly, it just sounds like some people would like to say they pass, so they label self esteem as passing. And as far as being normal, honey... where I live you have to be a little off :) and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the USA!
3) The problem is, most females want to socialize more than most men do. This is well documented in psychology and I can totally attest to this. I'd like to believe that it's no different in the MtF community since we have a lot of similarities with our cis gender counterparts when it comes to how our brain operates. At least I do! Do I lie? Not really. But I sure as hell manipulate the truth. Why don't I get periods? Because something in my central nervous system (my brain) doesn't recognize that I have ovaries. This forces me to take HRT, too. Is that a lie? No, it's not. But do I wish I could be fully honest and just be a cis gender female? Uh yeah... and that does tend to lead to dysphoria. I don't lie about being a tomboy growing up, and I am very honest with what I watched as a kid. It still causes dysphoria because when I reflect on it, I wish I didn't feel pressured as a child to watch that stuff. I really wanted to play with barbies and watch care bears when I was 6, and I feel robbed because of it! It's an absolute factor in a lot of things dysphoria related, and it makes me not even want to talk about what I did growing up because I wanted to be something else. And hey, I like being a little off. New Orleans wouldn't be worth living in if there weren't any weirdos here :D I take total pride in that. But these factors do not really address passing.
I still stand by my opinion that passing is not completely equal to self esteem. Yes, both of them help each other... I agree with that completely. I know I am seen as cis gender most of the time. I worked in a place for 8 months where people made fun of my transgender roommate and still couldn't put together that I'm transgender myself. Hell, my doctor thought I was FtM when she was seeing me at first. But I wouldn't doubt that a couple people here and there when I'm out in the real world do clock me... they just respect me because I carry myself well. Does that mean I'm passing during that time? Apparently not! But in my experience, knowing as many transgender people as I know (4 of us live on my block and dozens of us attend regular meetings) and hearing their stories and seeing them in person, these are my conclusions.
Again, with great respect and hoping the easiest life for us all :)
I'm so bummed, I typed a long and respectful (I thought) response and somehow the board dropped it instead of posting it. now I am not so inspired as the comments about hush falling over the room lead me to believe I am way off base here and/or that somehow our conversation seems confrontational. My net of that lost post is:
1) I hold only the best intentions for you, and only post because I want to help the OP with a legit question. I never considered what you said in your first sentence, I was talking in general about your specific points, for the most part.
2) Female expression is broader than you give credit for, there are cis women getting mis-gendered out there now. For every trait you feel clocks you I can show you a cis girl with the exact same trait.
3) living in a mindset where you can't pass unless you always pass would be hell, I refuse to hold any of us to that impossible standard. So maybe you would pass 100% if you lived stealth and in a place less 'flamboyant' than NOLA, and away from other trans women. Not that you want to, just saying that may be a better place to judge pass rates.
5) I really don't care what others think of my parts or expression, I do it to please me, not them.
6) Will passing 1 time be enough validation? Will passing a million times be enough?
7) How do the people I see in every day life know I have self esteem, or confidence, when they pass me all the time? They can't know, so it can't be why they don't sir me or do anything to threaten me. I am not a small fem girl either, so if I can do it you should be able to do it 100x better.
8. women get rated, ranked, scored 1-5, called butters, dogs, pigs, whores, c's, bitches and a whole lot worse. You and I get to add ->-bleeped-<- to the list but 99% of male attention is going to be the same degrading commentary on our looks as cis women see daily. Be prepared to have your looks define you the minute you start presenting as female. It won't stop until you die.
With love and respect and sincere hope
Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 02:45:31 PM
I think I conveyed what I meant poorly. Cis women go through a lot with beauty standards and it impacts them, maybe even more than us given their early socialization; however, they will always pass as female for the most part. They usually don't have to worry about being gendered male and may not fully understand what passing as a transwoman may be like as that usually isn't an issue form them but is almost always one for us.
I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I think that your worries here have merit, but the truth is I've watched my partner get sirred and she's cis. It comes down to whether that should shake her confidence or make her feel bad, but since she has none of our baggage about how we look, she ignores it. It never defines her, and so why should it define us? Are we somehow deceiving people or living a lie, or are we correcting a medical issue and living our life as healthy as possible? I prefer the later over the thought that I am an undercover man trying to 'pass'. Those feelings did exist for me in transition, the fear went away after SRS, and I haven't thought like that since.
For those who didn't notice it, one of the ladies in the videos I posted earlier is transgender but if you listen to the voices, you could easily imagine two of them are. All of that to say that yes, our own conviction that we are women really does make a huge difference.
Quite obviously, a genetic female who has been socialized as a woman from the day she was born knows from the inside out that she is a woman so no matter how masculine her voice, her appearance or whatever, barring other issues and as FA already said, she will never have any doubt about her identity as a woman.
It is definitely a lot harder for a trans woman because, before all else, we have to get over our own doubts about our intrinsic identity. Being perceived by others as a woman clearly helps massively but at the end of the day, no matter what the means required, the standard any of has to achieve pretty can be pretty well boiled down to developing the same inner conviction about our gender identity as the genetic female who was socialized as a woman from the outset. Once you have that, what other people think starts to matter a hell of a lot less.
Believe it or not, even as a late transitioner, 6' tall, with big hands I can do nothing about and a voice that is still far from perfect (but still probably more feminine than Dillie Keane the oldest of the three ladies in the videos...) , I am already getting very close to that level of conviction. In my own case I did need FFS to get there but that was pretty well it. That was enough to tilt the scales enough for me to feel comfortable enough with myself to make the switch publicly. Now, I no longer really care what people think and when I am misgendered on the tel, still a problem, I just politely correct the person at the other end of line.
End of the day though, the answer to the excellent question raised by the O.P. is down to each and every one of us, based on our own image of what being a woman means.
Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 03:17:41 PM
I'm so bummed, I typed a long and respectful (I thought) response and somehow the board dropped it instead of posting it. now I am not so inspired as the comments about hush falling over the room lead me to believe I am way off base here and/or that somehow our conversation seems confrontational. My net of that lost post is:
1) I hold only the best intentions for you, and only post because I want to help the OP with a legit question. I never considered what you said in your first sentence, I was talking in general about your specific points, for the most part.
2) Female expression is broader than you give credit for, there are cis women getting mis-gendered out there now. For every trait you feel clocks you I can show you a cis girl with the exact same trait.
3) living in a mindset where you can't pass unless you always pass would be hell, I refuse to hold any of us to that impossible standard. So maybe you would pass 100% if you lived stealth and in a place less 'flamboyant' than NOLA, and away from other trans women. Not that you want to, just saying that may be a better place to judge pass rates.
5) I really don't care what others think of my parts or expression, I do it to please me, not them.
6) Will passing 1 time be enough validation? Will passing a million times be enough?
7) How do the people I see in every day life know I have self esteem, or confidence, when they pass me all the time? They can't know, so it can't be why they don't sir me or do anything to threaten me. I am not a small fem girl either, so if I can do it you should be able to do it 100x better.
8. women get rated, ranked, scored 1-5, called butters, dogs, pigs, whores, c's, bitches and a whole lot worse. You and I get to add ->-bleeped-<- to the list but 99% of male attention is going to be the same degrading commentary on our looks as cis women see daily. Be prepared to have your looks define you the minute you start presenting as female. It won't stop until you die.
With love and respect and sincere hope
I'm not sure if you're making much of this about me. I'm fine with passing 99% of the time. I'm grateful, to that extent. It's more than any transgender person I personally know. But that doesn't mean I pass just because I am confident. Those two words have exclusive meaning. Sure there are cis gender women that are mistaken for being transgender or even as male, but they're very few and far between (and I'm sure some of them feel awful for it, too). That doesn't mean that trans women who are clocked x amount of times passes.
I stated it's ridiculously rare for transgender women to pass with extreme consistency. That is a fact that we're all going to have to live with. I've gone to transgender meetings and have spurred shocked reactions when I state that I'm transgender. People literally took me for being an ally. Gender therapists have come to me at these meetings and have told me that they don't see how anybody could ever see me as anything but cis gender, and I'm one of the extremely lucky MtFs that they can say that about. But I probably don't pass with 100% consistency. Therefore, in most situations, yes, I do pass. A rare sometimes, maybe I don't. But when I don't, it has nothing to do with my confidence level. It's because somebody recognized something(s) masculine and put things together. One of my transgender friends is in the same boat as me. I clocked her not knowing a thing about her just because her forearms had a certain build and length to them... something NONE Of us really consider if they aren't muscular or overly hairy (and hers weren't). This also backs up my claim that it's extremely rare for us to pass 100% of the time.
And that's what I'm getting at. Just believing you pass doesn't mean you do. It means you're confident. People can be overly confident. I definitely have confidence in myself. I have a zillion stories to show that I shouldn't think any other way. But what I'm saying is based on my experiences with others, for the most part. Going into meetings and hearing stories, having best friends who are trans, listening to the cis community talk about transgender people, things like that.
You can definitely be seen as transgender but respected as your preferred gender, even by people who normally do not recognize things that way. For the most part, people are respectful. And for the rest, most of the people who are not are afraid of people who are self confident. So by their silence, it's possible that one can falsely (in my opinion) see that self confidence does equal passing, but in reality it only gains respect. Everybody respects self confidence (as long as it's not arrogantly displayed). Do you think people start calling me by male pronouns when they find out that I'm trans? Hell no. I'm not a victim, a sub-ordinate, or a prey.
I guess in conclusion, it's not likely you'll pass 100% of the time, so stop expecting to. Don't even set yourself up with the expectation and belief that you do. That expectation / belief is going to rock your mental health if you are ever sir'd or he'd or whatever. Just be yourself and rock it, it's all you can do.
And the footnote in your post: you're right. Women are a backdrop for vanity in this society. It's a shame that it is 80% of what can get us ahead. Men can be disgustingly disrespectful to that extent and it's frustrating to endure. Thanks society, for making it THAT much harder to get ahead for us transgender women. But in reality, those same rude ass men will still date the women they call butters. They act that way because they want to be funny with their friends, and I guess their idea of male bonding (those immature enough to partake in these social behaviors) is to just be mean. Sometimes the best way to handle seeing that is to either just shrug it off or roll with it and joke back. Don't let their nonsense effect you. Remember that at least half of the population is going through the same garbage that you are.
As far as the periods thing... I tell people I'm in surgical menopause. It's 100% true, conveys all the information most people (even the majority of medical professionals) needs to know including that I'm on HRT*, and doesn't get into precisely *which* gonads were removed to achieve that state. And I had enough months of using pads, etc. post-op to be able to talk knowledgeably about the experience, the worries about needing to change in a public bathroom, the leak through the pants, various sanitary napkin types/brands, and so on. :) OK, so I never had cramps; some cis women don't, and I just get "lucky!" and they move on.
(Sharing in case anyone else wants to borrow this technique.)
*I am fortunate, I admit, in that my HRT dosages are within the typical menopausal cis female range. But there are cis women on higher than typical doses, too.
The standard I need to achieve is simply being happy. I will keep taking the next step until I am content with my body.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 03, 2014, 04:32:46 PM
As far as the periods thing... I tell people I'm in surgical menopause. It's 100% true, conveys all the information most people (even the majority of medical professionals) needs to know including that I'm on HRT*, and doesn't get into precisely *which* gonads were removed to achieve that state. And I had enough months of using pads, etc. post-op to be able to talk knowledgeably about the experience, the worries about needing to change in a public bathroom, the leak through the pants, various sanitary napkin types/brands, and so on. :) OK, so I never had cramps; some cis women don't, and I just get "lucky!" and they move on.
(Sharing in case anyone else wants to borrow this technique.)
*I am fortunate, I admit, in that my HRT dosages are within the typical menopausal cis female range. But there are cis women on higher than typical doses, too.
When asked about periods, I say the same as you. I also list my surgery on medical forms as complete hysterectomy including ovaries. If doctors ask about pap smears I say I don't have a cervix anymore. This has always been enough.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 04:21:43 PM
I'm not sure if you're making much of this about me.
I'm responding to you so it is related to your views, but I don't intend to make it about you as a person. if that isn't clear, I am sorry, I'll try to keep it less specific.
I stated it's ridiculously rare for transgender women to pass with extreme consistency. That is a fact that we're all going to have to live with.
I think this speaks to the impossibility of passing, and is not the reality many of us face, which is that we pass all the time except on the phone where a polite, I'm a woman, can easily correct the misunderstanding.
And that's what I'm getting at. Just believing you pass doesn't mean you do. It means you're confident. People can be overly confident. I definitely have confidence in myself. I have a zillion stories to show that I shouldn't think any other way. But what I'm saying is based on my experiences with others, for the most part. Going into meetings and hearing stories, having best friends who are trans, listening to the cis community talk about transgender people, things like that.
That speaks to you, not everyone. Just believing in the face of continual comments to the contrary is of course ridiculous, but to hear that my experience of not ever getting clocked to my face means I am just being clocked behind my back is impossible to defend. We can define passing any way we want but since we can't prove a negative, it is a moot point.
You can definitely be seen as transgender but respected as your preferred gender, even by people who normally do not recognize things that way. For the most part, people are respectful. And for the rest, most of the people who are not are afraid of people who are self confident. So by their silence, it's possible that one can falsely (in my opinion) see that self confidence does equal passing, but in reality it only gains respect. Everybody respects self confidence (as long as it's not arrogantly displayed). Do you think people start calling me by male pronouns when they find out that I'm trans? Hell no. I'm not a victim, a sub-ordinate, or a prey.
You're a strong woman, I don't think I could be out as trans to everyone, it would be hard. I'm always aspiring and moving forward, never held captive to my past self or past mistakes. Learn and move on! I am glad you get the correct pronouns, it would probably be harder yet
I guess in conclusion, it's not likely you'll pass 100% of the time, so stop expecting to. Don't even set yourself up with the expectation and belief that you do. That expectation / belief is going to rock your mental health if you are ever sir'd or he'd or whatever. Just be yourself and rock it, it's all you can do.
I think 99% passing is a more realistic number and maybe 80% before surgery... after SRS the number goes up. I totally agree to rock it and be yourself, and be strong mentally because a he or sir should never derail your dreams.
And the footnote in your post: you're right. Women are a backdrop for vanity in this society. It's a shame that it is 80% of what can get us ahead. Men can be disgustingly disrespectful to that extent and it's frustrating to endure. Thanks society, for making it THAT much harder to get ahead for us transgender women. But in reality, those same rude ass men will still date the women they call butters. They act that way because they want to be funny with their friends, and I guess their idea of male bonding (those immature enough to partake in these social behaviors) is to just be mean. Sometimes the best way to handle seeing that is to either just shrug it off or roll with it and joke back. Don't let their nonsense effect you. Remember that at least half of the population is going through the same garbage that you are.
I had a great time in bed with my first man. He kept saying something in Spanish that I later found out meant f'ing blonde or white (I'm going to assume blonde) I just couldn't ever trust him after I found out, and I never had time to find out how other men were before I met my wife. He wasn't hating me he was just 'being a guy' and begged to get me back, but I just can't feel safe with someone who has so much anger in them they use it in bed. I envy your ability to roll with it, I couldn't.
Good discussion, it seems unlikely we'll change each other's minds about this. I wish you the best!
Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 05:52:36 PM
Good discussion, it seems unlikely we'll change each other's minds about this. I wish you the best!
Back at ya hon.
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..
I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.
Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 07:02:00 PM
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..
I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.
Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.
I agree. I mean, obviously you need a lot more than confidence to pass. A cis woman isn't going to be misgendered due to confidence. I think where confidence comes in is that the lack of it can cause further scrutiny. If you look like you don't think you belong or you're nervous about being read, people can pick up on that. And look closer. If you act like you belong like any other woman, people are less likely to scrutinize. But obviously, you have to be somewhat passable for this to make a difference.
I know it's not quite the same, but people are used to seeing all kinds of women. It's not that uncommon to see a large woman, tall woman, one with a mustache, deep voice, or other masculine traits. Especially for menopausal women.
I'd add that it's not just confidence as a general trait, but confidence in yourself as a woman. A woman can have low self esteem, but still no doubt that she's a woman and that other people recognize her as such. It's like going to a party as a nerd with all the cool kids. You've got to act like you belong there. Like you're no different and have just as much right to be there.
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 07:02:00 PM
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..
I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.
Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.
I'm baby stepping my way to full time. I'm on my 7th month of HRT. Things are going alright I still dress in guy clothes even though I don't have much left any more and my proper clothing is getting more abundant. I don't expect not to be sired , but wow , each day longer and the pain of that word thrown at me is getting so hard to deal with.
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 07:02:00 PM
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..
I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.
Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.
I totally agree, Kelly. Everybody gets misgendered, even cis gender people. For example, once I was filling in for the receptionist at my job. A lady came and checked in, then a guy came in 5 minutes behind her. He's cis gender (for all I know...) and I accidentally called him ma'am. I quickly apologized and called him sir, and was embarrassed. I've actually done this a number of times (the medication I'm on makes me an airhead sometimes). Never has anybody shown to have taken any offense in their body language for the second or so between misgendering them and correcting myself. I'm sure many of us would die inside for that second or so if that happened to us. But I know if it happens to me, not to let it affect me unless they keep doing it, because cis people know who they are.
If you physically do not pass, then well, you just do not pass and it doesn't matter how you carry yourself. If you're biting your nails over every issue that involves gender, people will figure you out even if you are beautiful. But all things considered, I think having no fingernails is unhealthy so I guess my advice is to just not worry about it so much :D
Quote from: stephaniec on May 03, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
I'm baby stepping my way to full time. I'm on my 7th month of HRT. Things are going alright I still dress in guy clothes even though I don't have much left any more and my proper clothing is getting more abundant. I don't expect not to be sired , but wow , each day longer and the pain of that word thrown at me is getting so hard to deal with.
During my 5th month was the first time I ever was gendered as female. Then during the 6th month it happened more than a couple times (maybe once or twice a week). My 7th month I went part time, and was still gendered as male most of the time. By my 8th month I found it smarter to go full time because unless I had facial hair I was not getting gendered as male about 80% of the time (it was usually either confusion or female). Honestly I miss those days a little. I had nothing to worry about and a feeling like it didn't matter because I was still living as a guy, and being gendered as female was just a bonus and made me smile so much inside.
But the real swing for everything didn't happen til about month 16 or so. Yes, I was passing pretty consistently before then, but around that time was when the results really started to look significant to myself.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 07:50:01 PM
During my 5th month was the first time I ever was gendered as female. Then during the 6th month it happened more than a couple times (maybe once or twice a week). My 7th month I went part time, and was still gendered as male most of the time. By my 8th month I found it smarter to go full time because unless I had facial hair I was not getting gendered as male about 80% of the time (it was usually either confusion or female). Honestly I miss those days a little. I had nothing to worry about and a feeling like it didn't matter because I was still living as a guy, and being gendered as female was just a bonus and made me smile so much inside.
But the real swing for everything didn't happen til about month 16 or so. Yes, I was passing pretty consistently before then, but around that time was when the results really started to look significant to myself.
I see how you look now, If I can get close to that I'd definitely be in heaven.
Aww.. thanks :)
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
I totally agree, Kelly. Everybody gets misgendered, even cis gender people. For example, once I was filling in for the receptionist at my job. A lady came and checked in, then a guy came in 5 minutes behind her. He's cis gender (for all I know...) and I accidentally called him ma'am. I quickly apologized and called him sir, and was embarrassed. I've actually done this a number of times (the medication I'm on makes me an airhead sometimes). Never has anybody shown to have taken any offense in their body language for the second or so between misgendering them and correcting myself. I'm sure many of us would die inside for that second or so if that happened to us. But I know if it happens to me, not to let it affect me unless they keep doing it, because cis people know who they are.
My reaction to being misgendered is a raised eyebrow..
QuoteIf you physically do not pass, then well, you just do not pass and it doesn't matter how you carry yourself. If you're biting your nails over every issue that involves gender, people will figure you out even if you are beautiful. But all things considered, I think having no fingernails is unhealthy so I guess my advice is to just not worry about it so much :D
There's a bunch of women around here who would do well to take heed of this..
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
My reaction to being misgendered is a raised eyebrow..
Mine is usually followed by an apology from them before I can even react.. but if it ever happened I'd probably just wait for them to do it again and say "I'm female, by the way" and look at them like they've gotta be joking.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 09:22:27 PM
Mine is usually followed by an apology from them before I can even react.. but if it ever happened I'd probably just wait for them to do it again and say "I'm female, by the way" and look at them like they've gotta be joking.
I should have mentioned the incredulous look that goes with the eyebrow.. lol
I also think the passing worries are way overblown.
Because there is indeed a zone between simple "passing as female" and the "passing completely as a cis woman, nobody would believe that you're trans" which Alaina is talking about. There's a critical line where, even if lots of people suspect that you're trans, nobody is going to gender you male, and nobody is going to really care, because your overall femaleness is so obvious. Basically a point at which 90% or more of people aren't even going to give you a second look, and just accept you as a woman. And from my experience, LOTS of trans-women make it at least that far.
I'm kind of at an interesting phase myself, where I can still see TONS of glaringly-obvious male features on myself, and every trans person I've asked about my appearance has said "yeah, you do pass as female, but you still look trans, and you're probably not going to be able to interview for jobs without that trans status being obvious." And for God's sake, I'm 6'2" tall, large-built, have disproportionately-small boobs, wide shoulders, and very little butt. And yet I haven't been gendered male for two months straight, not a single person gives me so much as a second look when using the women's room, and I'm consistently getting stories worthy of the "you know you pass when" topic, where people can't even put two and two together after seeing that I'm in their database under a male name. Again, no, I know I don't pass as cis. Everyone I've asked has told me so. But apparently nobody cares, and my life is basically able to go on completely 100% normal, with my gender identity never being an issue with anyone. So with that in mind, does it really matter? I really think there's a critical line that many cross where being more able to pass as cis really wouldn't lead to any significant improvement in their well-being, quality of life, or ability to just live as themselves without running into any problems.
Carrie: That's pretty much what I was getting at. Thank you for the anecdote.
I found that how much I worried was never linked to how much I passed. As far as I know I never haven't passed as a girl in the last couple years. But there was a time when I worried constantly about it. About the time I stopped caring totally was when I decided I'd rather identify as a boy. Of course that was also the point when my face had become really neotonous so not much I can do anyway. I still only pass as a cis girl but it is refreshing to not care either way. I don't really bother answering weird questions about my past if they come up, and people get that it doesn't matter. They're just looking for smth to talk about and will assume whatever makes sense to them anyway. Even if all the facts are pointing somewhere.
I think if your body is the right size, you do get to a point where you'd be basically impossible to clock. If I didn't know I had a penis it would trip me up to find out. And even before I had the advantage of HRT, I just don't think people were or ever would have been comfortably able to to clock me. It does take a certain threshold of suspicion to be able to. No weird details about me can really take away from that, so I have the advantage of at least blending in while I figure myself out, though yeah, I have stopped caring. People exclusively see female but I've stopped letting it define me at all. Females can be whatever. It is really not worth it, there's so much more interesting stuff abt a person than their gender.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 02:27:47 AM
I think if your body is the right size, you do get to a point where you'd be basically impossible to clock. If I didn't know I had a penis it would trip me up to find out. And even before I had the advantage of HRT, I just don't think people were or ever would have been comfortably able to to clock me. It does take a certain threshold of suspicion to be able to. No weird details about me can really take away from that, so I have the advantage of at least blending in while I figure myself out, though yeah, I have stopped caring. People exclusively see female but I've stopped letting it define me at all. Females can be whatever. It is really not worth it, there's so much more interesting stuff abt a person than their gender.
As I've scrolled and read through this thread I've had a lot of emotions come to the surface. I've cried reading through much of it for the more I read, I felt almost like an outsider for the very first time since I've been a member here on Susan's. At least, in as far as the "passing" issue is concerned. The words above however have given me some comfort so Sad Panda, I thank you for them. I literally around 5 years ago even before hrt found it impossible for me to pass as male anymore. It's as if my body made the decision to go full time for me, yet I'd look at my face in the mirror and be so baffled why this had happened because to me I couldn't see it. I couldn't see what other people were seeing and during this early time for about 6 months I was so frightened and lived in fear some kind of cruel joke was being played on me, and I was in for a huge letdown. This probably sounds silly to all of you. And believe me even now 5 years later 4 months into my hrt and full transition this is still so hard for me to explain. Also I apologize if I'm off topic a little.
After around 6 months of living on pins and needles only leaving the house when I had to I slowly began to consider this a blessing, and though I already had a wardrobe that was about half & half, I boxed up every bit of male clothing I had and gave it to Goodwill some of it still with the tags on it, which I replaced with all female clothing. I've always been tiny (5-5, around 120) with a very slight bone structure, and long legged, short in the torso with narrow shoulders all my life. And also of course my being xxy (Klinefelter's) is the only thing I can think of to explain all of this. These days after being on hrt for 4 months I pass very easily and I myself feel facewise I look so much better than I did those years ago.
While reading your posts throughout this thread many of tears of sadness were mixed with those of realization that I must be very lucky to be able to pass so easily. That being said, I feel I really haven't understood until now what some of my sisters have to go through to achieve something that for me happens so easily.............. I'm sorry I have to stop here. This has hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, I apologize to all of you and the OP if I've went off topic.
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: Allyda on May 04, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
As I've scrolled and read through this thread I've had a lot of emotions come to the surface. I've cried reading through much of it for the more I read, I felt almost like an outsider for the very first time since I've been a member here on Susan's. At least, in as far as the "passing" issue is concerned. The words above however have given me some comfort so Sad Panda, I thank you for them. I literally around 5 years ago even before hrt found it impossible for me to pass as male anymore. It's as if my body made the decision to go full time for me, yet I'd look at my face in the mirror and be so baffled why this had happened because to me I couldn't see it. I couldn't see what other people were seeing and during this early time for about 6 months I was so frightened and lived in fear some kind of cruel joke was being played on me, and I was in for a huge letdown. This probably sounds silly to all of you. And believe me even now 5 years later 4 months into my hrt and full transition this is still so hard for me to explain. Also I apologize if I'm off topic a little.
After around 6 months of living on pins and needles only leaving the house when I had to I slowly began to consider this a blessing, and though I already had a wardrobe that was about half & half, I boxed up every bit of male clothing I had and gave it to Goodwill some of it still with the tags on it, which I replaced with all female clothing. I've always been tiny (5-5, around 120) with a very slight bone structure, and long legged, short in the torso with narrow shoulders all my life. And also of course my being xxy (Klinefelter's) is the only thing I can think of to explain all of this. These days after being on hrt for 4 months I pass very easily and I myself feel facewise I look so much better than I did those years ago.
While reading your posts throughout this thread many of tears of sadness were mixed with those of realization that I must be very lucky to be able to pass so easily. That being said, I feel I really haven't understood until now what some of my sisters have to go through to achieve something that for me happens so easily.............. I'm sorry I have to stop here. This has hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, I apologize to all of you and the OP if I've went off topic.
Ally :icon_flower:
Ally, we all have struggles that are unique to our own situation. I realize that not passing as male was likely very hard for you at a time when it was socially expected. And even though I constantly worry about passing, I realize those who were easily able to pass had issues of their own and struggles that I may not be able to relate with. In many ways, we all have positives in our lives, but we all have negatives and hardships that we faced. At the end of the day, I struggle with seeing my own blessings; however, this is a reminder that I really should make that effort. I'm not as unpassable as I feel and it probably does hurt many people to hear me complain about it when I've been blessed in some ways. Thank you for your post because it made me reflect on that.
Op,
Forget about your own eyes, as we are tainted with major bias about ourseleves, do you pass in society? How are people responding to you? I think all of us place impossible standards on ourselves that we will always failt to meet. With these expectations in mind, it's a bit hard to judge what really is there. Other people don't have this issue when looking at us. So, how do they usually gender you?
I actually talked to my therapist about this the otherday. She is trying to get me to see reality and no longer be plagued by my "idealized" self. She wants me to see that it's possible to be pretty and passable without meeting impossible standards that we throw upon ourselves. It's hard to get through and all, but I hope you will. We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 04, 2014, 07:49:28 AM
Op,
Forget about your own eyes, as we are tainted with major bias about ourseleves, do you pass in society? How are people responding to you? I think all of us place impossible standards on ourselves that we will always failt to meet. With these expectations in mind, it's a bit hard to judge what really is there. Other people don't have this issue when looking at us. So, how do they usually gender you?
I actually talked to my therapist about this the otherday. She is trying to get me to see reality and no longer be plagued by my "idealized" self. She wants me to see that it's possible to be pretty and passable without meeting impossible standards that we throw upon ourselves. It's hard to get through and all, but I hope you will. We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure.
LTL, that is all I am trying to say, but you managed it in far fewer words, kudos! That last sentence is worth its weight in gold.
"We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure." Carpe Diem
Quote from: Allyda on May 04, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
As I've scrolled and read through this thread I've had a lot of emotions come to the surface. I've cried reading through much of it for the more I read, I felt almost like an outsider for the very first time since I've been a member here on Susan's. At least, in as far as the "passing" issue is concerned. The words above however have given me some comfort so Sad Panda, I thank you for them. I literally around 5 years ago even before hrt found it impossible for me to pass as male anymore. It's as if my body made the decision to go full time for me, yet I'd look at my face in the mirror and be so baffled why this had happened because to me I couldn't see it. I couldn't see what other people were seeing and during this early time for about 6 months I was so frightened and lived in fear some kind of cruel joke was being played on me, and I was in for a huge letdown. This probably sounds silly to all of you. And believe me even now 5 years later 4 months into my hrt and full transition this is still so hard for me to explain. Also I apologize if I'm off topic a little.
After around 6 months of living on pins and needles only leaving the house when I had to I slowly began to consider this a blessing, and though I already had a wardrobe that was about half & half, I boxed up every bit of male clothing I had and gave it to Goodwill some of it still with the tags on it, which I replaced with all female clothing. I've always been tiny (5-5, around 120) with a very slight bone structure, and long legged, short in the torso with narrow shoulders all my life. And also of course my being xxy (Klinefelter's) is the only thing I can think of to explain all of this. These days after being on hrt for 4 months I pass very easily and I myself feel facewise I look so much better than I did those years ago.
While reading your posts throughout this thread many of tears of sadness were mixed with those of realization that I must be very lucky to be able to pass so easily. That being said, I feel I really haven't understood until now what some of my sisters have to go through to achieve something that for me happens so easily.............. I'm sorry I have to stop here. This has hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, I apologize to all of you and the OP if I've went off topic.
Ally :icon_flower:
Yeah, everyone has their own struggle. i think personally it would have been good for me to have been clocked a few times so i could get over the fear of a first time. I think it allowed me to make not passing into this horrifying thing that I certainly would never be able to tolerate. So it sounds weird, but in its own way it is actually very hard to cope with, having this problem that nobody can see or understand, that you don't feel able to talk about, feeling kind of freakish and in the dark but unable to reach out to anyone. And living a life everyone thinks you always lived.
Ofc however you get there... the bottom line is self acceptance. You will never feel good, passing or not passing, no matter what your identity is, if you haven't gotten to the point of saying, this is me, and what I am is okay, there is nothing wrong with me for being this way.
Btw, were you dxed kilnefelter's? That's not really something you can just identify without a karyotype, and unless you have super short genes it is very unlikely. Klinefelter's people actually grow tall. But, if you did have that, it would explain it, yah...
I did always ask myself why my body was the way it was... still really have no clue. I am severely underdeveloped for my genetic potential, and that kinda sucks. I wish I could be a tall, skinny boy. Then I wouldn't have transitioned either, so my life would be a lot different.. Instead I'm short and tiny and childish. Oh well though. Doesn't really matter why my body is this way, just happened, you know?
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 09:41:33 AM
Yeah, everyone has their own struggle. i think personally it would have been good for me to have been clocked a few times so i could get over the fear of a first time. I think it allowed me to make not passing into this horrifying thing that I certainly would never be able to tolerate. So it sounds weird, but in its own way it is actually very hard to cope with, having this problem that nobody can see or understand, that you don't feel able to talk about, feeling kind of freakish and in the dark but unable to reach out to anyone. And living a life everyone thinks you always lived.
Btw, were you dxed kilnefelter's? That's not really something you can just identify without a karyotype, and unless you have super short genes it is very unlikely. Klinefelter's people actually grow tall. But, if you did have that, it would explain it, yah...
I assume your asking me this: Yes, I was diagnosed with Klinefelters twice. I meet most all criteria physically with the exception of my being shorter than most. However it should be noted that I was originally 5-8 before my 91 aircraft accident destroyed my back. Now I have decimated discs, discs that no longer exist, fused vertebra, and a wonderful little thing called Spinal Stenosis that all together has made me lose 3 inches in height. However even at 5-8, I was still long legged, short in the torso, and all throughout my life very feminine in appearance. I also have super long eyelashes that, while they were a little thicker when I was younger, but even now eliminate my need for mascara. I've also known I was a girl since early childhood. As far as heredity goes I take after my biological Mom a lot and she wasn't very tall. I never knew my biological father and when I asked my Mom would only tell me he was Native American as she and I are (I was born on a Reservation). Unfortunately she was all the real family I had, and I lost her when I was 6 in a car accident.
Ally
Quote from: Allyda on May 04, 2014, 01:33:36 PM
I assume your asking me this: Yes, I was diagnosed with Klinefelters twice. I meet most all criteria physically with the exception of my being shorter than most. However it should be noted that I was originally 5-8 before my 91 aircraft accident destroyed my back. Now I have decimated discs, discs that no longer exist, fused vertebra, and a wonderful little thing called Spinal Stenosis that all together has made me lose 3 inches in height. However even at 5-8, I was still long legged, short in the torso, and all throughout my life very feminine in appearance. I also have super long eyelashes that, while they were a little thicker when I was younger, but even now eliminate my need for mascara. I've also known I was a girl since early childhood. As far as heredity goes I take after my biological Mom a lot and she wasn't very tall. I never knew my biological father and when I asked my Mom would only tell me he was Native American as she and I are (I was born on a Reservation). Unfortunately she was all the real family I had, and I lost her when I was 6 in a car accident.
Ally
Oh okay, yep that would make sense then. I actually am different, I am 5'5 too but I have super short legs/short arms and a normal torso just a small waist and stuff, but ended up with a body that is ultimately hard to pass as male, so I guess that is why we had a similar experience. :)
I'm jealous of peeps with long legs though ;o; short fat legs are so unattractive lol.
That's really awful about your family. :( it sounds like it must have been really hard going thru transition without that support.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 02:15:43 PM
Oh okay, yep that would make sense then. I actually am different, I am 5'5 too but I have super short legs/short arms and a normal torso just a small waist and stuff, but ended up with a body that is ultimately hard to pass as male, so I guess that is why we had a similar experience. :)
I'm jealous of peeps with long legs though ;o; short fat legs are so unattractive lol.
Sounds like we got the same legs. :laugh: Mine are oddly muscular though, the calves have like huge round balls on them. Even before T and without working out. Hated them as a girl.
Quote from: Donna E on May 03, 2014, 03:55:32 PM
For those who didn't notice it, one of the ladies in the videos I posted earlier is transgender but if you listen to the voices, you could easily imagine two of them are. All of that to say that yes, our own conviction that we are women really does make a huge difference.
I seriously never would have noticed. When you first posted that video, I was seriously like "wait a minute, what the hell does that video have to do with convincing me that women come in all shapes and sizes? It's just three middle-aged women singing about being hip."
Kind of funny, I never noticed that one of them was trans until you actually told me, and then all of a sudden I went back and looked at her and suddenly I immediately noticed all of the cues... the long arms, the bigger shoulders, and the angular facial features. Had you not told me she was trans, I never would have known, but now that I do know, I can see it.
I guess that really is what happens with a lot of people... once you know that someone is trans, you can see their "flaws" as clear as day. Where your average everyday person who isn't specifically looking for masculine features, and is just taking you at face value with no knowledge of your history, probably doesn't.
This is pretty consistent with one of the few times that I've met a person that I believed was trans in the wide world of everyday life. She looked trans to me, but the more and more I heard her talk, the more and more I saw her interact with everyone at my poker table, the more doubts about it I got. Because she just seemed so well-assimilated and natural with everything she did. And not knowing her history for sure, I really couldn't say for sure in the end whether she was a trans woman or just a cis-woman with a lot of masculine features. It's really hard to tell unless you know someone's history for sure.
And that's the great part of life, is that absolutely nobody you meet out there in the wide world knows your history. So even if your transness is glaringly obvious, people have no way of knowing for sure. And frankly that's probably where a lot of the prolonged stares that we fear so much come from, is from people who are curious, trying to figure you out. It's not "hehe, look at the freak" like so many of us are afraid of, it's more curiosity.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 02:15:43 PM
That's really awful about your family. :( it sounds like it must have been really hard going thru transition without that support.
Thank you, I really appreciate the sentiment. Almost 2 years after losing my Mom I was adopted off my reservation by my now adopted Mom who is still alive (though she's slowly finally coming around, she's very religeous [Baptist] & has a hard time with my transition). However, shortly after adopting me she married a man of Sicillian Italian descent. Things for me got really bad after that. I won't go into that though because I'd rather not repeat my other posts, and, it's very hard for me to talk about. I would however like to say this: My biological Mom was to me anyway a jewel of a person like no other. She never forced or pressured me to "be a boy," so to speak, and, I've no doubt had she lived she'd have went literally to hell and back to help me transition before puberty, or during so I wouldn't have been beaten up by any ugly T stick, lol! Again, Sad Panda I really thank you for your words. You have been very inspirational. Oh and I saw your photo's on another thread, and, for what it's worth, I saw a pretty younger woman. I loooved your hairstyle in those too.
Best wishes,
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
Sounds like we got the same legs. :laugh: Mine are oddly muscular though, the calves have like huge round balls on them. Even before T and without working out. Hated them as a girl.
Ugh, yep! Mine too. Fat and muscular, and fat. We're talkin sell-yew-lite ;o; and the worst part is it can't even be starved away. Nothing works.. as a boy, i feel like a frog, not gonna lie. As a girl, at best I hear painting of venus. Like... classic... bottom heavy... not a twig like is in these days, and i wanna be a twig :/ or as a guy like... a beautiful gazelle. *runs off and browses thinspo*
Quote from: Allyda on May 04, 2014, 03:59:00 PM
Thank you, I really appreciate the sentiment. Almost 2 years after losing my Mom I was adopted off my reservation by my now adopted Mom who is still alive (though she's slowly finally coming around, she's very religeous [Baptist] & has a hard time with my transition). However, shortly after adopting me she married a man of Sicillian Italian descent. Things for me got really bad after that. I won't go into that though because I'd rather not repeat my other posts, and, it's very hard for me to talk about. I would however like to say this: My biological Mom was to me anyway a jewel of a person like no other. She never forced or pressured me to "be a boy," so to speak, and, I've no doubt had she lived she'd have went literally to hell and back to help me transition before puberty, or during so I wouldn't have been beaten up by any ugly T stick, lol! Again, Sad Panda I really thank you for your words. You have been very inspirational. Oh and I saw your photo's on another thread, and, for what it's worth, I saw a pretty younger woman. I loooved your hairstyle in those too.
Best wishes,
Ally :icon_flower:
Thanks, that's pretty young boy to you though miss! ='P
Anyway, I'm really happy I could help. Thanks for sharing too. It sound like, even though your mom is not here, she'd be really happy for you. :) That is really special.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
Thanks, that's pretty young boy to you though miss! ='P
Anyway, I'm really happy I could help. Thanks for sharing too. It sound like, even though your mom is not here, she'd be really happy for you. :) That is really special.
Sorry about the Gender mistake. Thanks for those words about my Mom.
Ally
Quote from: learningtolive on May 04, 2014, 07:49:28 AM
Ally, we all have struggles that are unique to our own situation. I realize that not passing as male was likely very hard for you at a time when it was socially expected. And even though I constantly worry about passing, I realize those who were easily able to pass had issues of their own and struggles that I may not be able to relate with. In many ways, we all have positives in our lives, but we all have negatives and hardships that we faced. At the end of the day, I struggle with seeing my own blessings; however, this is a reminder that I really should make that effort. I'm not as unpassable as I feel and it probably does hurt many people to hear me complain about it when I've been blessed in some ways. Thank you for your post because it made me reflect on that.
Op,
Forget about your own eyes, as we are tainted with major bias about ourseleves, do you pass in society? How are people responding to you? I think all of us place impossible standards on ourselves that we will always failt to meet. With these expectations in mind, it's a bit hard to judge what really is there. Other people don't have this issue when looking at us. So, how do they usually gender you?
I actually talked to my therapist about this the otherday. She is trying to get me to see reality and no longer be plagued by my "idealized" self. She wants me to see that it's possible to be pretty and passable without meeting impossible standards that we throw upon ourselves. It's hard to get through and all, but I hope you will. We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure.
It's kind of complicated for me. The HRT has changed my face a little I think , but I can't really tell because I have no one to tell me if there is change. I live in the same place for 20 years and there is a flux of different people every year to 4 years because I live across from a major university, but there is a lot of the same people young and old that know me as male. I've noticed at times that the longer I've been on HRT that I'll get some curious looks from people that kind of take a little long look at me. It could be my Imagination though. I gone out in public on and off for a long time and really never had people give me strange looks. The thing is that when I in totally male clothes , people that have seen me for 20 years as male seem to be emphasizing the male pronoun when greeting me. I'm just not sure whether they're emphasizing it because they see my face change or am I just imagining their pondering look. Not being able to be objective is quite annoying. It's making me question whether HRT is doing anything or are these people that have know me for 20 years seeing a difference. I know lately there has been a couple a instances where older women for some reason seem to be giving me a disapproving look. It's very annoying not to have the objectivity when looking in the mirror. I'm beyond the point of no return in my transition , so I'll just have to take it a day at a time and see how it works out eventually. I just bought a nice outfit and I'm planning to walk to my therapy session Tuesday in proper attire. We'll see if I get any strange looks. That's if I don't chicken out because so many people around have seen me before.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on May 04, 2014, 03:53:25 PM
I seriously never would have noticed. When you first posted that video, I was seriously like "wait a minute, what the hell does that video have to do with convincing me that women come in all shapes and sizes? It's just three middle-aged women singing about being hip."
Kind of funny, I never noticed that one of them was trans until you actually told me, and then all of a sudden I went back and looked at her and suddenly I immediately noticed all of the cues... the long arms, the bigger shoulders, and the angular facial features. Had you not told me she was trans, I never would have known, but now that I do know, I can see it.
I guess that really is what happens with a lot of people... once you know that someone is trans, you can see their "flaws" as clear as day. Where your average everyday person who isn't specifically looking for masculine features, and is just taking you at face value with no knowledge of your history, probably doesn't.
This is pretty consistent with one of the few times that I've met a person that I believed was trans in the wide world of everyday life. She looked trans to me, but the more and more I heard her talk, the more and more I saw her interact with everyone at my poker table, the more doubts about it I got. Because she just seemed so well-assimilated and natural with everything she did. And not knowing her history for sure, I really couldn't say for sure in the end whether she was a trans woman or just a cis-woman with a lot of masculine features. It's really hard to tell unless you know someone's history for sure.
And that's the great part of life, is that absolutely nobody you meet out there in the wide world knows your history. So even if your transness is glaringly obvious, people have no way of knowing for sure. And frankly that's probably where a lot of the prolonged stares that we fear so much come from, is from people who are curious, trying to figure you out. It's not "hehe, look at the freak" like so many of us are afraid of, it's more curiosity.
Hi Carrie.
I was told before watching it that one of the group was a trans woman and actually watched the the second of the two videos I posted first. When I heard her sing, I first thought the trans woman was Dillie Keane, the lead singer with the heavy Irish accent. Her voice is even deeper than mine... :)
Apart from finding them really funny (especially Cheap Flights for those familiar with low cost flying in Europe..), I thought the videos were a brilliant demonstration of just how many genetic women would also have difficulty passing if the question was limited to "accepted standards" of prettiness.
Take care!
Donna
I'd like to say that everyone has given such great advice and understanding. I feel a lot better about my transition thanks to everyone's honesty.