How does a store clerk for instance wrap their heads around that one? What's going through their minds to sir someone showing the women bumps?
If you're being sir'd showing cleavage, I'd think you have some serious passability issues. :-\
it could just be too soon into HRT, or your voice, or what you were buying was typically male. They can be so busy at times they probably didn't even look up and really notice who they were talking to. Don't sweat passing yet.
My wife gets sir'd with her 42DDs all the time. She's tall and pretty andro, but cis nonetheless.
It seems wierd to me for someone to sir a person who has boobs...
if anything dont use gender specific words at all...
jesus...
Being that I am a store clerk, I don't gender someone I have any doubts about whatsoever and if they seem to be clearly presenting as a woman, I will gender them as such and vice versa. I have one person in there occasionally that does appear to have lady bumps, but they also have a pretty unshaven face and they are obviously male appearing aside from the lady bumps, but they seem to have been wearing a bikini top under their shirt today. I just treated them as normal and didn't gender them at all and was very polite.
^^ I think you being a trans woman you'll be quite cognizant of all the subtle gender markings to gender quite accurately.
But to the average Jane and Joe they are not trained and will rely on instinct. I would think breasts are a woman's strongest gendering asset. It's near eye sight level how can that be avoided. And I'm not referencing the occasional obese man with very large gynecomastia.
If you're wearing obvious female clothes and showing lady bumps then you are infinity presenting more female than an obese gynecomastia guy. And yet if you are *still* getting sir'd then either that's a symptom of extreme prejudice from the store clerk, or FFS is in extreme order.
Either way I still don't get it misgendering in the face of actual cleavage.
I don't know. I have a noticeable chest and have an andro appearance, but I can and do get gendered male. Maybe it's cause I'm covered up, but I think overall presentation matters.
Quote from: Jill F on May 05, 2014, 03:01:07 PM
My wife gets sir'd with her 42DDs all the time. She's tall and pretty andro, but cis nonetheless.
Sir'd from behind maybe? Does she have short hair? Baggy clothes?
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 05, 2014, 04:15:39 PM
Sir'd from behind maybe? Does she have short hair? Baggy clothes?
Nope, to her face. And she has long hair she usually ties up.
Anyone getting sir'd showing cleavage with form fitting female clothes? :D
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 05, 2014, 04:18:05 PM
Anyone getting sir'd showing cleavage with form fitting female clothes? :D
Oh well, the world is full of idiots. My wife does give off a pretty masculine vibe though. She's dudelier than I ever was and embraces her androgyny.
this topic just made me want to say I <3 boobs, well other peoples, mine can go away haha sorry to take this off track
I get sirred all the time despite (somewhat) visible breasts. Gaining weight has really helped in that department, as the fat conceals them nicely, but I still think they're visible enough. I even have had airport security think that my chest looks "suspicious" and then the male officer pats it down lol. I just don't think breasts are that important in gendering, weirdly enough.
But that said I certainly didn't show cleavage! I think they probably just didn't even glance at the chest area and went based on other things. Work with enough customers and you do become oblivious.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 05, 2014, 04:18:05 PM
Anyone getting sir'd showing cleavage with form fitting female clothes? :D
I wear form-fitting female clothes most of the time and have boobs but I never get sir'd like that. Or at all. The most I can manage when presenting as male is I can--male clothes, shoes, no makeup, hidden breasts, etc--cause people to say WTF. Is this a hypothetical question or did it happen? I mean if you're presenting obviously female and have boobs, as long as you don't have a beard, I think you'll be gendered correctly, at least where I am from.
Chromasomes? I thnk that no matter how one looks or sounds or acts everything about how some people gender poeople might just be a scale of masculin and femanin leading to a tipping of the scale in the direction of either XX or XY. And for some chromasomes are the difinition of male and female is decided by this subcontiously.
But for some chromasomes are not a desider and completelly irelavent and preffer to go by how the scale ends up, but the weight of each atribut is different for everybody, exanple I feel that transitioning doesn't make me more female, but I want it because I am? But for some I'm not a woman at all untill I do.
So those two are a what and a who? I know who I am is what's important, but to others its a what that is a colection of physical attributs? And visual and audible presentations?
I had a conversation with my seven year old nephew and tried to exsplain the situation, and even at a young age he showed an ability to think for himself, when I first started presenting as female full time he looked at me and said why you got girls clothes on? I said because I am a girl. So he looked puzzled but asked how? So I said your a boy arnt you? Yes he said, and that no matter how you look or act or like that you still you? Yes. And that you would still be you? And so he smiled and said so Inside you a girl but just look like a boy on the outside :)
The one thing he did that surprised me was ask how :) his older brother just luaghed and said you still a boy. And his older sister was it doesn't matter what you are to me. And his younger sister 5 just wants to do make up with me and never once struggle with the name change or pronoun differences.
So even in the same house hold opinions can be exstreamly contrasting.
It's happened to me simply because the cashier doesn't even look up and from there peripheral vision sees that I'm tall and gender me male. One morning i was dress in a tight turtleneck showing off my boobs, long red hair tied very feminine in the back and passing 100%. I was at Dunkin'Donuts and the woman cashier didn't even look up and called me sir when taking my order. (She never looked up once.) The woman (who was tall, but not as tall as me) next to me looked at the cashier like she was crazy. I looked at the woman next to me and just shrugged my shoulder like WTF. The woman next to me responded the same way. Then when it was her time to order, she did it again calling her sir. She looked at me and said that we must all be sir today or something. Then the next woman in line had pink hair and she gets ma'amed. The person handing us our order call us both miss, but it certainly left us wondering how much this cashier was paying attention and we both just laughed it off.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 05, 2014, 04:13:43 PMoverall presentation matters.
yes very important .. not just about clothing & appearance .. but manner too
That's just rude..
Quote from: Pinkie on May 05, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
That's just rude..
Unfortunately there is a lot of rude in NJ and it has nothing to do with being transgender. There are also a lot of nice people here too, so I don't want to bash the state too much, it's too easy, LOL
Seriously though, I an glad that transgender rights are extremely strong in this state in terms of discrimination.
I can only think voice is the culprit. That or, yeah, somebody has some serious passability issues.
Quote from: Ryan55 on May 05, 2014, 04:31:47 PM
this topic just made me want to say I <3 boobs, well other peoples, mine can go away haha sorry to take this off track
I'll send you my address in a tell and you can mail them to me. I'll find some use for them. >:-)
It depends on how otherwise femme you are, really. Boobs aren't going to make or break you. Even as a gay boy, I was flat chested (obvs) and i'd wear tight shirts and still get gendered female.
By contrast, if a big, hairy deep voiced FtM showed some boobage I would still prolly gender him male.
Face, voice, mannerisms etc make the biggest difference in passing.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 05, 2014, 03:41:04 PM
Either way I still don't get it misgendering in the face of actual cleavage.
Extreme caricature here, but "his name is Robert Paulson".
IDK, some of the men at work have bigger boobs than I do though.
Quote from: Dee Marshall on May 06, 2014, 09:21:50 AM
I'll send you my address in a tell and you can mail them to me. I'll find some use for them. >:-)
lol if I could, I would
I can't always bind, and with a large chest, I still get sir'ed almost as often as when binding. Though I'd prefer sir over ma'am for myself.
I dress in guy clothes.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on May 05, 2014, 10:00:09 PM
It's happened to me simply because the cashier doesn't even look up and from there peripheral vision sees that I'm tall and gender me male. One morning i was dress in a tight turtleneck showing off my boobs, long red hair tied very feminine in the back and passing 100%. I was at Dunkin'Donuts and the woman cashier didn't even look up and called me sir when taking my order. (She never looked up once.) The woman (who was tall, but not as tall as me) next to me looked at the cashier like she was crazy. I looked at the woman next to me and just shrugged my shoulder like WTF. The woman next to me responded the same way. Then when it was her time to order, she did it again calling her sir. She looked at me and said that we must all be sir today or something. Then the next woman in line had pink hair and she gets ma'amed. The person handing us our order call us both miss, but it certainly left us wondering how much this cashier was paying attention and we both just laughed it off.
This has me thinking. I stopped getting misgendered in May 2013, and was never called ma'am after that...except once (maybe twice)...but the one time really stuck out to me because I was seen as 100% male for the past 6 months and then got a big fat ma'am. I was waiting at the counter, looking down at my stuff, and the woman said "I can help you here ma'am." Totally cut like a knife and I got into it with her. But I wonder, if it had more to do with my height. If she just saw a short person, and mostly the top of my head, and that led her to think ma'am when she wasn't really looking.
Just to show that boobs don't necessarily matter in terms of gendering... just take a look at the character Robert Paulson from "Fight Club." Gigantic boobs, still looks completely male. (Probably gets stared at a lot, though.)
I've found from personal experience that the most important aspect of gendering someone is hair, second most important is clothing, then body frame/size, then face and clothing, then other things like voice if you still can't tell, which can override them all. Women with short hair get misgendered a lot. Men with long hair get misgendered a lot. Tall women get mistakenly read as trans sometimes. Women with large builds are sometimes misgendered. And guys with very slight builds can indeed be mistaken for lesbians sometimes. It happens.
I would agree with Carrie...hair may make a big difference. I was out the other day showing my lady bumps (tank top and loose fitting shirt) but no wig (used a bandana to cover my bald spot) or make up and I'm still trying to find my female voice and I got sir'd. It was disappointing, but understandable since I was going for a more andro look than anything. It's probably the whole picture and probably a more sub-conscious thing than anything.
Jane
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 06, 2014, 10:30:50 AM
It depends on how otherwise femme you are, really. Boobs aren't going to make or break you. Even as a gay boy, I was flat chested (obvs) and i'd wear tight shirts and still get gendered female.
By contrast, if a big, hairy deep voiced FtM showed some boobage I would still prolly gender him male.
Face, voice, mannerisms etc make the biggest difference in passing.
This. You can have the biggest boobs, but if the rest is out of proportion like abbyxo mentioned, you will still gendered as a male. And some trans women are just trying to hard. Like hip swinging. I mean unless you have hips naturally don't walk like that. I think thats the biggest giveaway.
Thats what i mean ::): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kBiWi_vtIc
Quote from: beren_ts on May 07, 2014, 08:14:34 AM
Thats what i mean ::):
Sigh... yet another video about a trans person that speaks as if our femininity is all completely from surgery, barely talks at all about dysphoria, and thus perpetuates the myth that our femininity is "fake" and just for the purpose of getting attention...
(To be fair, I think it's possible that the filmmakers deliberately asked her to dress that way and walk that way, and staged the videos of her shopping and strutting around just to give them the footage they were looking for. Judging by how they framed this story, doing the stereotypical "sensationalizing transition" and "focusing on the most stereotypically frivolous aspects of her femininity" angle, I wouldn't be surprised.)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on May 07, 2014, 12:00:05 PM
Sigh... yet another video about a trans person that speaks as if our femininity is all completely from surgery, barely talks at all about dysphoria, and thus perpetuates the myth that our femininity is "fake" and just for the purpose of getting attention...
*sigh*
maybe some people do it for attention...I guess though they must have other issues...
Speaking from the other side of the discussion (not related to passing): sometimes you'll just run into people who are overly critical and will notice features about you that will instantly identify you in their minds as male. and as a result they will have this ignorant and stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge your true female nature and will literally rationalize that they are forced to "sir" you because it defies their very nature.
I have cisfemale friends who have been sir'd because a guy was CONVINCED that if a girl has any sort of facial peach fuzz, SHES A MAN! Some people are just effing idiots who can't be bothered to be respectful because some arbitrary or insignificant self-morality "doesn't allow them" to acknowledge your true gender; or to put it simply, they're full of Bull-manure.
So while there are other things besides boobs that = passability, sometimes people are just inexplicably and unwavering in their ability to be dim-witted or narrow-minded. I cant for the life of me imagine how I was able to go out with smooth shaven legs, flowy hair, dressed casually female, full makeup, even with a female voice only to have the waitress INSTANTLY "sir" me without even so much as looking at my face. Its like... really?
Hell, to some people its impossible to believe that any woman could ever be taller than 5'3" so I guess a trip to Germany would cause cardiac arrest in them.
I'm sorry, im rambling now lol