Hi. I just thought to post here for the first time because I realized I probably fit the description of not being fully comfortable in a binary system, but I wouldn't call myself androgyne. I'm genderqueer.
For me the difference is that I'm not just interested in presenting androgynously, and don't even do that most of the time. I like presenting across the range of gender identifications. Sometimes I'm super-femme and other times I'm butch, and other times in between. Androgyne seems limiting to me. I was wondering what the history of the forum name is and if it might be something we want to talk about reconsidering. Thanks!
I feel like androgyne is kind of it's own little branch of the genderqueer identity spectrum, so I agree. It could just be like...Other Transgender...for those who may not identify as exclusively transsexual, but nit necessarily androgyne,either (non-binary, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc).
Regardless, here's to being a outside the lines ;)!
The forum has been around quite some time now. The name is a result of what was popular when it was created. All non-binaries are welcome here. Identifying as androgyne is not necessary.
I'd also add that very few people take "androgyne" to mean "presenting androgynously" -- there is even a stickied post on the topic. Generally, the focus on the forum is actually more toward non-binary identities than non-binary presentations.
Personally, I wouldn't identify as either androgyne or genderqueer, though I am a kind of non-binary.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that when I first saw it. Because I'm pretty sure Androgyne is closer to Bigender than gender neutral, right? Or something like that. Not actually sure about that. Either way though, it's a pretty limiting term if it doesn't specifically ring true with you personally
Quote from: ethereal-ineffability on May 07, 2014, 11:11:43 PM
Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that when I first saw it. Because I'm pretty sure Androgyne is closer to Bigender than gender neutral, right? Or something like that. Not actually sure about that. Either way though, it's a pretty limiting term if it doesn't specifically ring true with you personally
All the terms are pretty lose, so these are just "in general" or "most common usage."
Androgyne has been used as both a kind of umbrella term for non-binaries, as well as to mean people composed of a mixture of gendered elements. Bigender is more often characterized as switching back and forth between two differently gendered identities.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "gender neutral." Agender is the term for non-gendered people. Neutrois for those who see themselves as non-sexed as well.
I missed the sticky post though when I read it there doesn't seem to be a clear explanation for the origin of the identity category either, which is new to me. When I read androgyne I just assumed fancy Frenchified way of saying androgynous.
Is it difficult to lobby to change the name of the forum? I imagine we want a term that's in relatively current use, I'd say either non-binary or genderqueer, which are both more inclusive and current. I hesitate to use "Other Trans" just because catch-all categories tend to get marginalized.
Uh, I don't know. I feel kind of awkward talking about changing the name, because I still feel too new here and I've been here like 3 years. Maybe talk to Ativan? They are one of the only oldtimers who still posts regularly. Info about Androgyne below:
Androgyne derives from two Greek words, but makes its first appearance as a compound word in Rabbinic Judaism (see, e.g., Genesis Rabba 8.1; Leviticus Rabba 14.1), most probably as an alternative to the Greek Pagan-related usage of hermaphrodite.
The Online Etymology Dictionary dates its appearance in English to 1552, although it is sometimes (wrongly) claimed to have been coined by Prof. Sandra Bem, who helped to popularise the concept. An androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" male and female, or as entirely genderless. They may class themselves as non-gendered, agendered, between genders, Intergendered, bigendered or, genderfluid
Androgyne was once used as a synonym for hermaphrodite, a term since replaced by the word intersex.
Prof. Sandra Bem's work on androgyny preceded the current widespread use of the term as a gender identity, and uses the term more in terms of character traits than core gender identity. She considers an androgyous balance of traits to be desirable, stating that those who are able to draw on both traditionally masculine and feminine emotions and behaviours are best able to cope with life's challenges in a well-rounded way.
http://androgynous.askdefine.com/
Personally I think that the term androgyne is fully inclusive and captures the broader non binary community. However language and meaning do change through usage. I am not invested in either term as I see myself as androgyne, partly gender queer and definitely gender fluid so can identify with non binary.
Aisla
Semantics. "Genderqueer" has connotations of... freakiness, activism, etc. Something not everyone "within" it consider virtues. Androgyne is more neutral, technical, even dignified.
Call yourself "genderqueer" if you want to, but don't drag the rest of us to that label. IMO.
My read on "Genderqueer" is that it is an expression that takes part of both male and female and at the same time rejects both, making a strong statement in the process. This would sort of be rocking a flirtatious dress and wearing bold earrings AND a full beard. Personally, I am not comfortable with that. Before I went anywhere en femme I did away with the beard. For the moment I will hang onto the term Androgyne as it seems to fit.
I seem to be going through a deep psychological morass and really am not sure what I am at the moment. Once upon a time I felt that as soon as I could blend into the background in a female presentation I would start considering myself female. Now? I seem to be right in the middle of the non-binary and have no clue what way to go.
So, I would prefer to keep the title Androgyne.
Erin
Would non-binary be more inclusive? Just asking because I'm on a couple of Facebook groups that have been criticizing Susan's for being old-fashioned, and cite its use of "androgyne" specifically as demonstration that it's outdated. I'm not trying to "drag" anyone into anything, just opening up the question. It's just I've been in the trans / queer community for 20 years and here is the first time I've seen it so that kind of concerns me.
There is a direct answer to the question asked here.
The history of this section.
When Susan started this forum, she chose to use the term Androgyne.
Over the time I've been here, it's been proposed to change the title several times.
While each of you are correct, at the same time, there isn't an answer or change in the title that reflects just what this section is.
Non-binary is about as close as you can get, yet it's still just a word that is used more broadly at this time.
In due time, this will change to another term or word that better reflects what we are trying to discuss.
For the forum to change something, the title, with each new way in which we discover to define ourselves,
would mean changing it every year or so or even every few months.
Yet none of the proposed ideas sufficiently do justice to the many people who come here.
Sure it's not the best, but it does have a history and it is well understood once you've been here for a while just what this section is.
It stays because that is what it has been from the start.
It's not a reflection on the forum, the forum has yet have a better term to use.
Change it to non-binary and there will be those who oppose it. Same thing with genderqueer or any of the terms we use.
We used to and still do on occasion refer to this overall place as the forest, unicorn forest, at one time.
Those have a stronger history than androgyne, even if not as long.
Yet that doesn't define it to those who haven't heard the term used before.
It stands as a part of the history of this forum, and will until a universally used term is in place and is there to stay.
This brings me back around to the discussion of just what any given term means to begin with.
We use them, loosely with loose definitions that some are convinced that their definition is correct.
Which they are for you. But not everyone agrees and we each interpret them differently.
Nature of who we are. The variations are as many as there are of us.
Unique would be a better term to use as a universal one, but that also has a lot of other meanings, which is the point.
We use terms, but we always have to keep in mind the personal nature of them as they reflect the personal nature of us.
There is a history to this section that is really pretty colorful and insightful.
Go back to the earliest pages to read about it. I have on occasion and I use it to remind myself of the changes I have made for myself.
I see where I have made progress in myself defining who I am, I see that in everyone who has ever been here.
There are high points as well as low.
It's worthy of looking at because it represents a look into the evolution of this section,
and it's a very good insight into the world of non-binary as it has evolved, by the very people who have done that.
It's still evolving and it will change. But the one anchor that has always been here is the word used for the section, the constant in an evolving discussion.
It doesn't matter what the section is called, what matters is that it has never been stagnant for very long if at all.
Just like for each and every one of us. We evolve as we find the answers to our questions about who we are.
This section is simply a reflection of that.
To stop and redefine the terminology as it is evolving is a waste of time.
To find the answers to the questions asked in discussion isn't.
Politically correct? No.
But neither has any other definition been for any length of time.
The short answer is that it would mean throwing all those older answers that do have value, into the trash and starting over, in a sense.
Susan a while back expressed this after a lengthy discussion about it.
It's her wish and rightly so, that the legacy of this section remain as it is, politically correct or not.
It's of better time and space to accept it for what it is. I could just say it's the forest and leave it at that.
It wouldn't make much sense to someone new here. Androgyne is still useful in that when looking for an answer by googling it, it will bring you here even if by way of some other reference.
So it stands as the title that works, has worked and in the near future as far as anyone can see, it will still work.
So until the day comes that a universally used word is the final definition and term to use, it should and will remain the same.
Not an answer to what is a better word to use, but what word is best used and best holds the section together?
There are this and that websites that come and go, membership goes up and down.
This one has remained consistent from the start and is growing despite what ever is currently politically used as a title.
I do go and look at other sites, they are all useful as well for what they are.
Yet I come back here because it isn't tied up in political correctness, it answers the questions we ask.
You answer the questions you ask. All of them for the most part very personal questions.
It's moderated in a way that allows for everyone to have a voice of reasonable nature.
It's not always the most current, yet remains rock steady in it's mission.
When ideas and answers and the questions themselves tend to run all over the place politically and socially, it holds a steady position.
It isn't the title that does that and it has nothing to do with what the section is or isn't.
It's not the best title, but there isn't a best title, by the very nature of us, who this section really is.
It's a part of the forum and the forum is Susan's. When the time comes that a better and consistent term or word comes into play,
She'll change it. She's made adjustments and upgrades since the very beginning of this forum.
She allows us to discuss with reasonable confines, what ever we wish to, in the way we are.
Which is, really, pretty different than the other sections.
The title and what it is and what it could be are not that big of a concern as compared to the section itself.
The last time there was a very big discussion, Susan asked everyone to find a better title that could be used and she would change it.
We couldn't agree and through discussion about it, the need and desire for a change soon became another discussion in the definitions of the terms we use.
We still haven't answered that question she asked.
Just what is a better title to use that is better than the one that it is.
Is it correct? Hell no. Is there a better one? Not yet. But there might be in the future.
Keep this discussion going, it's a good one that brings us back to the terms we use and their definitions.
It will always be an insightful discussion and needs to be discussed.
Because it defines who we are, which answers so many current questions.
That's always more important than the political and sociable correctness that we use today and will use tomorrow.
That's not the answer to the question, but it does tell us and let us know where we are, right now.
Just as we always have more questions than answers, so we have more ideas of a title than we have a real title that is acceptable to everyone.
The history, as I said, is insightful and tells us more about ourselves than just what the title is, isn't, could be, and shouldn't be.
The title should be 'A Short History of the Ever Evolving Nature of Non-Binary people in this Forum.'
Androgyne is as good as any other title. Google what ever you think is current and it will bring you back here one way or another.
I guess that's good enough. It gets the job done.
Ativan.
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 08, 2014, 10:22:21 AM
There is a direct answer to the question asked here.
The history of this section.
When Susan started this forum, she chose to use the term Androgyne.
Incorrect.
It was not Susan at all.
I requested, I named, and I created this forum while I served as an Admin. August, 2006.
Androgyne is the name of my gender type. Androgynes are people. <---- THIS is the reason I requested and received permission to create the support area "Androgyne Talk".
ANY member can submit a request for the creation of a new forum area to meet the support needs of their own gender type. In my opinion, and for example, Bigenders have been long overdue for their own support area. Because I am not Bigender I cannot make a viable request on their behalf. At least ten members who are Bigender are need to make the request for a Bigender Talk forum to be considered and created.
I hope this clears up and puts a halt to the dissemination of misinformation.
-Emerald
Sounds good. I'll formally request a non-binary forum then... I'll figure out how to do that. Are there people who'd like to join me?
That's information I didn't have, I wasn't a member back then.
I think my original account only goes back to early 2009, and this one was started in 2010 sometime.
The last time it was brought up, the way it was presented at that time, is what I wrote.
That was my understanding of it, as that was the response to it at that time.
It's nice to be updated on more of the back history of this section.
Perhaps you could fill us in on more of it sometime.
Your perspectives, I'm sure, would be greatly appreciated.
I still keep a comment that you made back then that made an impression on me that I still think about today.
Ativan
Quote from: mandonlym on May 08, 2014, 05:03:51 PM
Sounds good. I'll formally request a non-binary forum then... I'll figure out how to do that. Are there people who'd like to join me?
Are you requesting a different name for this section or a new one?
Either way, you get enough people and I'll throw my name into the ring as well.
Quote from: mandonlym on May 08, 2014, 05:03:51 PM
Sounds good. I'll formally request a non-binary forum then... I'll figure out how to do that. Are there people who'd like to join me?
Susan previously and soundly rejected 'Non-Binary' as being far too broad a category. Something more specific may gain a favorable response.
Hmm, I thought I wrote a biglong post. Oh well.
I joined in 2007 and later there was talk of changing the name. I remember that there was a general feeling that androgyne was broad enough and bland enough to fit people in without being utterly nebulous.
There have been a few times when more specific sub-boards have been introduced. I remember a bigender one and a presentation one. They fizzled out though, this part of the site seeming to work better when there are lots of different flavours of androgyne rubbing together.
Informally, we have often referred to these boards as the Unicorn Forest - a dark place separate from the citadels of male and female where wild creatures are free to make their nests wherever they want and occasionally scavenge the metropolises for anything that might make life more comfy out here. I always liked the conceit.
Quote from: mandonlym on May 07, 2014, 09:29:05 PM
Hi. I just thought to post here for the first time because I realized I probably fit the description of not being fully comfortable in a binary system, but I wouldn't call myself androgyne. I'm genderqueer.
For me the difference is that I'm not just interested in presenting androgynously, and don't even do that most of the time. I like presenting across the range of gender identifications. Sometimes I'm super-femme and other times I'm butch, and other times in between. Androgyne seems limiting to me. I was wondering what the history of the forum name is and if it might be something we want to talk about reconsidering. Thanks!
I came here specifically because of the androgyne subforum; though I thought it was odd that there was no non-binary forum as I see androgyne as being included under the non-binary umbrella (probably not everyone does, I'm guessing). I use a lot of words to describe my experience of gender; androgyne is the most central one because it is so narrow, or specific. I kind of look at my gender as "androgyne" overall, but genderqueer is a also a big thing because my identity and experiences are heavily politicized in practice (Genderqueer has its roots in queer political movement); non-binary is pretty similar as it simply references a sense of being something other than strictly male or female, but without the queer political connotation.
Some people hand-wave this away as "just semantics;" but semantics is literally "the meaning of language." Semantics are absolutely fundamental to our community: some of us grew up only having slurs as names for ourselves. Creating language that gives life and affirmation to our experiences and lived realities is so important! If we do away with the word "androgyne," we are implying that the experience of being androgyne is not important or relevant to this forum & community. If we want to discuss genderqueerness, I am all for the creation of a GQ/NB subforum. Actually, I would be extremely interested in getting that forum going, I think it's pretty whack that there isn't one considering that the two largest groups, by far, in the transgender community are binary trans people and GC/NB folks.
@ Ativan https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,5730.0.html It was a short thread made a long time ago. Easy to miss.
@ mandonlym " ...I wouldn't call myself androgyne. I'm genderqueer." <---- Indeed you have already identified the name for your specific gender type! :) You are not alone, there are other members to be found here who also identify as Genderqueer. I'm guessing about thirty or so. Try making a poll to discover how many Genderqueer individuals are active and if they are interested in a "Genderqueer Talk" support area. Good luck! :)
The terminology that is being used by those who are participating on a regular basis is different than the one used in 2006.
I'm more concerned about how this section is being used, rather than how it was used.
Although I think the history of it is important to understand how it has changed over the years.
If there is enough reason and enough people who wish it changed and it is an acceptable change, then it would just reflect how it is being used.
I've seen this come and go before, and it isn't going to change the questions that people ask, nor the answers.
It might ease some confusion as to what this section is and how it is used.
I use Non-Binary and I would have put my name to that if asked to.
It's broad enough in its definition, as it's used the most, to justify it, but it isn't necessary for the section to function.
We could break it down into sub sections if that's something that would make it easier to use, that's just fine.
But I think the topics handles that pretty well, but you just never know until you try it out.
Polls here never seem to quite get as many people responding to them as there are people.
And the people here do come and go, new people showing up all the time.
So see what happens...
@Emerald I can understand your concern for the name of this section and therefore wanting to jump right in to participate in this topic.
The link to a thread from 2006 is interesting to see.
But it doesn't really answer the question, however it does bring to a halt the dissemination of misinformation.
I would be thrilled to see you also participating in the current discussions in this section you named.
It would be an even bigger thrill to see you participating in it and bringing everyone up to date with the correct information to their questions.
I use the word 'would' with intent. 'Will' just doesn't seem to be the right way to say that.
But if it is, then I will look forward to your dissemination of current information here,
*I edited out a couple lines I feel uncomfortable with and used in a way that isn't my intent.
*I do get pissed at times and it can come out in what I write.
* I am having some painfully stressed things going on right now and it clouded my judgement.
*I apologize for that. I'm hopeful that my situation will get better sometime soon, just have to wait and see.
Ativan
Ativan/Emerald
I know it is a big ask but your continued participation and sharing of insight and experience gives much needed depth and perspective to the forum which we would/will be much the poorer without.
But understanding that your time and travel may already be calling you onward I wish to thank you for your leadership and contribution, and wish you safe travels.
Aisla
I'll hang out for a while and see how I feel. Honestly I'm just a bit ambivalent because I've been here a few months and have never contemplated coming into this forum even though I'm non-binary, just because I have no relationship to the term androgyne... maybe that won't be true in future. I do know that the term doesn't sit comfortably with me now, especially when I know that at least a couple of people I like don't feel welcome in the community because they're non-binary but don't identify as androgyne.
Quote from: mandonlym on May 08, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
I'll hang out for a while and see how I feel. Honestly I'm just a bit ambivalent because I've been here a few months and have never contemplated coming into this forum even though I'm non-binary, just because I have no relationship to the term androgyne... maybe that won't be true in future. I do know that the term doesn't sit comfortably with me now, especially when I know that at least a couple of people I like don't feel welcome in the community because they're non-binary but don't identify as androgyne.
You could tell them that they are definitely welcome. During the time I've been here, there have been periods where the majority of posters did not identify as androgyne. I mean take a look through the introduction posts and you can see how many different ways people identify themselves. Beyond that I don't know what to say. I can't really see how changing the name of the forum will make it seem more welcoming, but if you want to try to change it to non-binary I would vote in favour, just because it seems a little more accurate.
I still think it's important to remember this forum has 8 years of history though, and that we should respect that.
Quote from: Emerald on May 08, 2014, 05:32:26 PM
Susan previously and soundly rejected 'Non-Binary' as being far too broad a category. Something more specific may gain a favorable response.
Well that's hardly fair. What if your personal category IS "far too broad"? What if you can at points feel either a mix of masculine or feminine, or neither, or one or the other? Heck, what if someone experienced all of that within the same day (and didn't go insane from whiplash)?
I refuse to accept that non-binary has been "soundly rejected". It is a valid identity for a group of people and deserves consideration just as much as any other identifying term.
EDIT: Or would one who also experiences periods of binary identification still be considered or consider themselves non-binary? Forgive me, I am too exhausted to mull this over right now.
Provocative.
I would suspect most non binaries are quite concerned with figuring out their identities, since it is not as easy in a polarized set.
All non binary folk have much to say and much to help regardless of the specific identities within the forest. There are many different trees in the forest, and they need each other.
I am late into this forum area and I would have benefited by coming into it sooner.
Partially because I thought I was not androgyne and because the term androgyne totally confuses me. I thought I did not fit it, and did not come to play seriously until this week. Especially with a physical mtf gender identity, not understanding there is more to this than physical identities, it goes far deeper than that.
Does androgyne exclude? No. A simple notation stating that all nonbinary identites are welcome to post here would resolve the issues. Or something simialr, since the mtf's or ftms or intersex should not feel excluded, it is an open forum to explore ourselves and to help others. This is paramount.
I need to be here. There are too many triggers in the mtf forum and I am too fragile yet to handle them, the stakes are too high for me.
As long as we feel welcome to come in and post and let our hair down, we have succeeded.
I would have argued for non binary as the name of the forum.
However as a newcomer I have high respect for the forum and would not poke into it.
As Ativan has pointed out, gender identities evolve, especially as we peel the onion and find out who we really are after getting the gook out of the way.
We just need to make sure all of the non binaries feel safe and supported to post.
If a subset posts, then the responders will naturally be inclined to post back. If it is not relevant to their life experience, they wont. No big deal.
My little take on it. Resolves nothing, but it is my hope that all that are outside the box of binary genders would feel safe and helped in this area of Susans.
As you can probably tell I tend to be a consensus-driven person so I don't like stepping on people's toes. I just hesitate whenever people say it's all semantics, etc. just because this is the same argument that, for instance drag queens use against the idea of using the term tr***y. For me androgyne has no association at all apart from it possibly sounding a bit feminine as French things tend to. But for younger trans people I've spoken to, the term reads as super old-fashioned to them. That's why I would advocate for the more "neutral" term non-binary.
And yes, of course there's a history, but you know Harvard Gay and Lesbian Caucus refused to add Transgender for years because of their claim that the name is historical; this is fresh in my mind because I still refuse to join as a result of this. We need to balance history with the present and future needs of people.
I edited out my semantics term. Frankly I never properly learned the definition of it anyway. its gone. Which may screw up Mandolym's response a little bit.
I cant really understand the labels anyway, it all gets so confusing to me in here.
The last thing I want to do is offend anyone in here. I need you all far too much to do that.
Thanks for letting me post in here.
Hi Satinjoy, not sure how to read this but I bear no ill-will or offense. People often read me as being argumentative when I'm just being factual. I'm just explaining my point of view for the position I personally hold. :)
No sweetie I just suddenly realized I used a word I didn't understand. lol
And I am very glad you are in here since I know you post a lot on the mtf it makes me a little more comfortable among new friends
Here you go mandonlym, some pertinent information... It explains what each of us is welcome to do, and what will and what will not be tolerated. I invite you and everyone else to carefully read each and every post Susan made in the thread entitled "Androgyne".
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22474.0.html
Quote from: Emerald on May 09, 2014, 03:45:01 PM
Here you go mandonlym, some pertinent information... It explains what each of us is welcome to do, and what will and what will not be tolerated. I invite you and everyone else to carefully read each and every post Susan made in the thread entitled "Androgyne".
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22474.0.html
Emerald
Very useful and illuminating re Susan's thinking and philosophy. The taxonomy still seems to work but if therefore is a groundswell (10 or more) then it appears Susan will consider a new forum but not sure if we won't see the duplication that she wished to avoid in the first place. Either way I am fluid and am flexible on this one
Aisla
Quote from: Emerald on May 09, 2014, 03:45:01 PM
Here you go mandonlym, some pertinent information... It explains what each of us is welcome to do, and what will and what will not be tolerated. I invite you and everyone else to carefully read each and every post Susan made in the thread entitled "Androgyne".
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22474.0.html
There are many things I could say about that post, but the only immediately relevant thing is that the apparently official definition for this forum IS the problem. If there were no definition and it was meant to be an all-encompassing term, then fine, whatever, everyone who doesn't like it would have to suck it up because they have no room to complain. But this leaves quite a bit of room to complain. Let's look at the accepted/official definitions once more, shall we?
QuoteAndrogyne: An androgynous person
Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.
So by association that means that this forum is meant for androgynous people, and in order to be androgynous you must be "neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior." But that doesn't leave out ANY of us who aren't binary (and don't have any other forum to go to besides the "transgender" forum which is open to literally everyone here and therefore is not a place where they could discuss issues pertaining specifically to them), right you guys?
Wrong. Bigendered individuals are clearly left out, for one. Some fluid individuals as well. In fact, this definition is so narrow that it completely leaves out anyone who does not live full-time as someone who always actively rejects binary gender traits and presents as androgynous 24/7. And while individuals in all these categories do have a lot in common for sure, they have about as much in common as they do with those who identify/present in a binary way 24/7; In other words, different issues that we should have a space to be able to talk about in specifically with other people who can relate.
Language is important. Language shapes culture, and culture shapes us throughout our whole lives. Argue "but it encompassed literally everyone else when the forum was made!!!" all you like, but once a word has been defined and said definition clearly does not apply, that excuse doesn't fly anymore. And saying that we are not "welcome" to express concern about this matter and that any and all complaints will "not be tolerated" is a little suspect of a forum which is supposed to represent a welcoming and supportive community, to say the least.
QuoteIf you don't like the definitions go start your own site. There's a delete account option in your profile. Any other definitions do not apply. Any arguing about these definitions will result in that persons ability to post on this site being removed.
Such a statement, from the ADMIN no less, really makes me wonder how actually accepting this community is to begin with. If my posting abilities are removed by bringing up these very valid and legitimate concerns, then I am not really sure I will spend too much time being disappointed about it, given that I do not particularly want to be a part of a community where such a thing could even happen in the first place. Open (harmless) discussion and the ability to adapt if it is deemed necessary is how we progress as a society, and any environment which does not encourage this (or at least strongly hints of hostility) is not a healthy place to be.
Realize that you are being sucked into an argument by someone who wishes to twist the words around with 6+ yr old posts.
My post was correct for the simple reason that Susan has the last word, even if it is delegated to someone else.
It is still by simple logic, her choice to do so and so it is her decision that named the section from a suggestion by someone else.
Regardless, it's her forum, it's her decision by default.
An argument is the wrong way to achieve the desired results you want.
Also keep in mind that if nothing comes from it, you haven't lost a thing here.
The section will and can go on functioning as it does, it will just need those clarifications that it isn't strictly an androgyne section and is used as a more broad over all non-binary section as it has for a long time now. Which can be used to open a new discussion about terms and descriptions, once again.
If the owner of the forum, Susan wants it to stay as it is, you lose nothing.
Arguing the point or decision could cause you to lose something, possible a warning or a ban or the removal of the section altogether.
Form the group you need, pick a leader or a few of them if you need to and organize the information in a way that presents it in it's best form for it to be used in an informed way to make an informed decision. Try a poll if you think it is worth it, it just might.
There is little recourse and you still haven't lost anything.
Don't be fooled by the current discussion. It's intent is to lead to an argument of some sort.
I won't play that game, so I'm sitting this out. Maybe for an extended length of time, it feels like it might be time to do just that.
I come here to help answer questions as best I can, which I have stressed are not ever the last word.
They are simply opinions, nothing more, just as you have opinions.
This one I'm forced to sit out, by my own set of rules which I have made clear in the past.
My rules tell me it's time to make a decision as to how I will approach this forum from this point on.
Hopefully it will be a decision of little consequence, of no importance.
This is the quote I referred to before:
Gender has no meaning or value if it is counterfeit.
Counterfeit gender is just a game, a trick, an amusement,
an act, a fraud, a deception, an imitation, artificial, bogus.
Be yourself, not a gender.
Being yourself is effortless and genuine.
Being yourself is REAL, not counterfeit.
In being yourself, in behaving in a manner which is natural to you,
whatever gender you are becomes self-evident.
-Emerald
Later, hope you can work around this in a reasonable way, one that is better than this discussion has gone and is going.
Ativan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_towards_non-binary_gender_persons
Really, what is a word? Just how do you define one? By definition or by situation?
They are nothing more than words and you can make them what you want them to be, how you want them to be.
Shaley koot-tum. <3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xButjfhZWVU
Ativan
And I will say it again, in your terms this time: If I am banned for bringing up a valid point, I have lost nothing, because there was nothing of value (my membership in a community which bans individuals who bring up valid points) for me to lose in the first place. There is a difference between argument and debate. Argument claims that your way is the only correct way of thinking and that the other party is wrong, which is what that linked post was in a nutshell. I do not believe that she is wrong, in fact, I believe she had several valid points, but I take issue with the fact that even just permitted discussion on this matter was so openly and forcefully silenced. Although, I do admit that it is very old, and that I am not one to judge someone based on something which happened several years ago.
But I am not a leader by any stretch of the imagination, and I am too new here to have any influence. Let it be known that if someone else wishes to take on the stress of discussing these things with the powers that be, I promise to be a strong follower.
In the mean time, I am curious to see what banner the community at large thinks we should band together under. I volunteer to start that poll if no one else wants to, since I have already thrown myself under the bus.
It's not about the point, but the way you take it up. The "detransition" sub forum, for example, was started through a request rather than demands and accusations of exclusion. Tell me what you'd like and I'll put it to the admins. Can't promise anything but it's worth a shot. :)
What an interesting and well spoken thread. As so often happens around here, you have opened up my thinking to possibilities that I have failed to consider, and will have to now explore. What is my gender identity? Mostly but not all female. How fluid is it? Some.
I've identified myself as queer for a very long time. HRT has transformed by body into something more feminine. But I'm not really cis or trans anything. For the last couple of years I've been on a journey with a defined beginning and middle, but without a definitive end. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe there doesn't need to be one.
So what the hell do I put on my new passport? :laugh:
Think I'll take a nap now,
Julie
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 04:03:28 AM
It's not about the point, but the way you take it up. The "detransition" sub forum, for example, was started through a request rather than demands and accusations of exclusion. Tell me what you'd like and I'll put it to the admins. Can't promise anything but it's worth a shot. :)
Ms Grace
I would like you to put the case for changing the sub forum from androgyne to non-binary to Susan. Like the others on this thread I think that the latter term is more inclusive and has greater currency, more relevance and better reflects the folk who contribute to this sub forum and the language as it is currently used in the tg community. I don't think that the objection previously raised (6/7 years ago), when this was first considered, necessarily holds as I think that the term non binary is now a well accepted and commonly used term to capture those for whom the androgyne sub forum was originally set up. It is not that the androgyne sub forum is irrelevant rather that the name could now be improved and made more relevant/inclusive/ and better reflect current community usage (imho).
I trust that this request will be viewed as constructive and positive, rather than seen as causing unnecessary contention.
Aisla
Quote from: JulieBlair on May 11, 2014, 06:12:24 AM
What an interesting and well spoken thread. As so often happens around here, you have opened up my thinking to possibilities that I have failed to consider, and will have to now explore. What is my gender identity? Mostly but not all female. How fluid is it? Some.
I've identified myself as queer for a very long time. HRT has transformed by body into something more feminine. But I'm not really cis or trans anything. For the last couple of years I've been on a journey with a defined beginning and middle, but without a definitive end. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe there doesn't need to be one.
So what the hell do I put on my new passport? :laugh:
Think I'll take a nap now,
Julie
Julie
Sleep well! Like you I am on a journey and for the first time in my life I am not overly concerned where I am heading or the label that I will need to be categorised on a passport or elsewhere. It feels .. exciting, empowering and liberating.
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on May 11, 2014, 06:29:08 AM
Ms Grace
I would like you to put the case for changing the sub forum from androgyne to non-binary to Susan. Like the others on this thread I think that the latter term is more inclusive and has greater currency, more relevance and better reflects the folk who contribute to this sub forum and the language as it is currently used in the tg community. I don't think that the objection previously raised (6/7 years ago), when this was first considered, necessarily holds as I think that the term non binary is now a well accepted and commonly used term to capture those for whom the androgyne sub forum was originally set up. It is not that the androgyne sub forum is irrelevant rather that the name could now be improved and made more relevant/inclusive/ and better reflect current community usage (imho).
I trust that this request will be viewed as constructive and positive, rather than seen as causing unnecessary contention.
Aisla
Thanks Aisla. If others are in agreement I'll make the request - like I said, no promises, but it's worth asking if that's how people feel. :)
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 10, 2014, 02:53:40 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_towards_non-binary_gender_persons
The National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) in fact did not use Non-Binary, Genderqueer, Gender Variant, nor Androgyne, Androgynous nor the hundreds of self-defined identities, behavior, and expressions rather the Socialogical defined word Gender Noncomforming that they picked and applied to the myriad of self-defined gender identities, behavior, and expressions after the survey had been taken, results analyzed, and findings presented.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 08:12:38 AM
Thanks Aisla. If others are in agreement I'll make the request - like I said, no promises, but it's worth asking if that's how people feel. :)
I'm in support of this, having previously voiced my opinion on the matter. Also, I think non-binary is a more prevalent term than gender non-conforming among people who actually identify with these categories. I personally don't define myself based on the fact that I don't conform to standard definitions of gender. It's simply the case that I don't have a strict allegiance to either male or female.
Also, if we could retire the "it's just words" argument please I would really appreciate it. Other people use this argument against us and it's as untenable in those cases as it is in this one. If this argument is valid, then we should be okay with people calling us by gendered pronouns we don't prefer, or refer to us as ->-bleeped-<-s, or use tr***y and s*****le, etc. I hope you see my point.
Thanks for your replies here, and via PM - I've put in a request using all your points and thoughts. Will let you know how that goes.
Ms Grace
Many thanks for this. Anticipating another counter argument I think that non binary is a subset of transgender rather than simply a synonym
Aisla
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 04:03:28 AM
It's not about the point, but the way you take it up. The "detransition" sub forum, for example, was started through a request rather than demands and accusations of exclusion. Tell me what you'd like and I'll put it to the admins. Can't promise anything but it's worth a shot. :)
Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's some Horrible Awful Thing that the name for this forum is currently what it is and that I Simply Demand that it Immediately be changed. I don't actually care about it THAT much. What got me riled up was the perception that we were literally not even allowed to discuss our own opinions on the matter, it could have been about any other topic and I still would have been as disappointed as I was to find that. For me it's the principle of things that get to me the worst; like, silly example, if I want to clean my room and then someone suddenly
demands that I clean it, that removes my choice and automatically makes me want to purposefully not clean my room even if I originally wanted to. The end result in either case is whether or not my room gets clean, but that doesn't matter so much to me. If that makes sense? But anyway, in more relevant news.
Yes, I am completely for you bringing that matter to the admin. And I agree with mandonlym, we really do need to officially retire the "it's just words" argument. Study Bandura's social learning theory or Gerbner's cultivation theory only briefly and it becomes apparent that the way we shape culture (with words) shapes us right back. Words are a very important chunk of how we communicate and need to be treated with proper respect. (This is also in the same vein as the "it's just a joke" argument.)
If it is still an issue that it is perceived that the community does not have a popular preference and therefore the old name should be kept by default, we can always create a poll. And lastly, it is worth mentioning that the name change might actually be important and relevant not because of "correctness" but because, as multiple people in this thread have already said, the name deters people who otherwise should be in this section talking to like-minded individuals because many of us cannot relate to the term "Androgyne" (especially as it is defined officially by this community) and believe wrongly that this forum just doesn't have a place for us to convene, period.
To me, the critical element of this section of the forum is to be inclusive and to help people find their center(s), and to explore all areas that do not fall into the limitations of "binary", or fully female and fully male spirits. Whatever is inclusive is helpful. Subsets may also be helpful. Exclusion, even if unintended, is unhelpful and unwise, unless another area of Susans is there for those feeling out of place. They will naturally gravitate to that place anyway.
Subsets may help if the group conscience can come up with an inclusive title for this section of the forum, and if done, if subtabs could include something that is perhaps of a general nature, with the GQ, NB, Andro tabs for those wishing to either limit their discussions to like spirits or like minded and the specific issues native to their needs.
I am physically very female centered but my mind most assuredly is not. It doesn't feel good when I feel stranded or alone. I know I am not alone in this forum, that you are all here to help me.
Just thoughts. No strong drive since the Androgyne label has probably been effective for years.
The Admins agreed to change the board name to Non-Binary...which they've now done. :)
Ms Grace
Big thanks to you and to the admins
Aisla
A change that appears small, yet is very significant in many ways.
As usual, I am in awe of all of you who made this happen, from the staff to most importantly, the members here.
A big thanks to Ms Grace, to be sure.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 13, 2014, 08:32:41 AM
A change that appears small, yet is very significant in many ways.
As usual, I am in awe of all of you who made this happen, from the staff to most importantly, the members here.
A big thanks to Ms Grace, to be sure.
Ativan
Ativan
You certainly helped us coalesce around this issue. Thank you.
I agree with you. This is a significant development and It should be beneficial in many ways. It is a very good thing.
Aisla
Yay!
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 13, 2014, 06:51:08 AM
The Admins agreed to change the board name to Non-Binary...which they've now done. :)
Thank you so much Ms. Grace, and thank you to any and all staff who may be reading this, it means a lot to us!
You're all welcome! ;D
Thank you for this gift to us dear, and for all who support this section of the forum.
Since I did it back almost 8 years ago. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,5730.0.html
Might as well reuse those same words changing and striking through the old words
Thank you for making a main Androgyne Non-Binary Category Talk Forum!
I just wanted to thank whoever everyone that helped, especially Ms Grace, that made the androgyne main category Non-Binary Talk section. Thank you!
Very cool! Thanks.
I want once again to thank everyone from the bottom of my heart for changing the androgyne title, which I do not identify with, to non binary, which I strongly identify with.
I went from feeling like the odd person out to finding a family.... it has made a huge difference
"Non-binary." I can live with that. It sure beats the hell out of "genderqueer."
I always thought that "non-binary gender variant" was good, and "non-binary"
comes pretty close to it without being so long-winded.