I had a bit of a fun post a bit earlier today - "She's a good looking sort (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165424.0.html)" - a couple of guys flirted good naturedly with me when I walked home this afternoon. Sure it was amusing but I still found it weird to have my appearance assessed like that; even so I played along, no need to get all "f@#$ off" on them, it was harmless enough. Right? But I do wonder if it isn't part of a spectrum, the other end of which I had an experience with this evening.
I had dinner in town with a couple of gal pals and left for home. We had a great evening. Just for info, I'm wearing jeans, below the knee boots and a leather jacket over a non-revealing top. And not under the influence either. I caught the train, no problem. At the home stop I wondered if I shouldn't catch the bus from the station...except it was half an hour away versus only a fifteen minute walk home. The walk home is along a well lit main street (although not very busy at 10.30 pm) and then a few minutes through a park. Not a well lit park at all. But you know, in the last eight and a half years I've lived here I've never had a problem or cause to feel concern walking through that park at night. Not once.
Now I don't know if this was two incidents or one. I was walking along the road, heard a car horn from a distance back, turned to look because it startled me, an SUV was waiting at the lights about 50 meters back, no other cars. Was that honk for me? Surely not. Apparently so. The SUV drives up slowly and pulls over to the kerb. Fortunately I was on the other side of the road so it's not like he was pulling up right next to me. This guy, an Indian, is just leering at me out the driver's window, I scowl at him and flicked my hand with a "be gone" type gesture and he drives away, goes up a block blocks and turns (against the traffic light I might add). Technically he was now on my side of the street, but it's buses only on my side so it's not like he could drive back up to me. I wondered if he might have parked in the side street, but no matter as I needed to cross anyway.
Got to the intersection where he turned. No apparent sign of him. To be honest I'm not sure I looked for him very much. The light was in my favour so I crossed and was then into the park.
Now this is a dark park. In the past I've always presumed I was safe there at night because it was so dark if there was a mugger they probably wouldn't be able to see me any better than I could see them. Stupid logic I guess. I'm about a third of the way into the park when I become aware that there's some guy coming up pretty quickly behind me, talking. No cause for concern, plenty of other people walk through the park so maybe it was just some guy talking on his phone. I adjust course so he can pass but next thing I know he's almost right behind me. I was a bit freaked at this point. By the accent it was an Indian guy, if it was the same Indian guy it was too dark to tell, on reflection it most likely was. And unlike most Indian guys this one was pretty tall, not as tall as me but he had some size to him.
Two thirds through the park I just stopped and circled back at him and made the hand gesture for him to walk past me. I really didn't want to engage or say anything in case my voice betrayed me; I was more concerned what he might do if he thought I was trans. (Maybe he already knew, who knows?) He didn't take the hint, "What's your name?" he asks. (WTF? Really??) I think I tried to say something, no idea what. He tries again, "What's wrong? I only want to talk to you." (Again, WTF? Again, really??
"Go away" I told him, fairly unconvincingly - it was all I could get out. I wasn't petrified but I was very, very rattled. Surprisingly he actually did. "OK" and just walked away. So that was a massive relief. When I got to my place, a block of units facing onto the park, I turned to make sure he wasn't following. He didn't appear to be, he had vanished as quickly as he had appeared (freaky enough). Even so I decided to go in through a different block in the complex and double back around through the rear entrances - that way he wouldn't know exactly where I lived.
So yeah. A disturbing and sinister encounter. Could have been a lot worse. It left me freaked, and jeeze what if he hadn't taken "go away" as an answer? To be honest, if I hadn't been taller I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been so obliging. Seriously going to reconsider walking through that park after 8.30 now. Unbelievable. I had some inkling of this kind of ->-bleeped-<-, how men can make women feel unsafe in public spaces. The flirting incident I mentioned above is kind of the jovial/benign edge of that spectrum; then the car incident was bad enough but to be stalked through the park - by some guy who, in the warped recesses of his brain, thinks it's actually alright to approach women in a dark park for a freaking chat?!? - that's some real nasty intimidation. Not the worst form of it obviously, it could have been worse and fortunately wasn't, but it is ugly ->-bleeped-<-. Was it the guy from the car? I don't know, but if it wasn't that means this guy was lurking in the dark in the the park for a woman "to talk to".
Anyway... I AM OK.
Rattled yes, but OK. I've learned an important lesson about my personal safety which I had previously taken for granted living as a guy. To anyone who doubts male privilege exists, the greater personal safety you get as a guy moving through public spaces is a big invisible part of it.
As I said, I'm re-evaluating how I go home at night now. Wait for the bus or better still catch a cab. I'm getting a whistle. In Australia it's not legal to carry mace or a taser so whistle it is. I might talk to some of the women at work to get tips from them too. I know it sounds like a bummer way to end the night - but I'm not going to let him take that good time I had with my friends away from me. I AM OK!
The thing that bothers me is that the jerk is still out there and the next woman he decides he wants to talk to won't find him so easy to shake off. :-\
That sounds scary, I'm glad to hear your alright. For me a non lethal weapon choice is a very bright flash light. The one I carry is:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenixlight.com%2FUploads%2Fphoto%2F617201390634PM49721.jpg&hash=e03b7dc7fd7954d7d7ec807a22ca13fc9dee0468)
That light is small and light weight for the output it has, but it can surely leave a person blind for a few seconds even with a quick flash.
Remember that the only thing that separates humans from animals are a few extra brain cells (that don't always work right). Males especially are handicapped when their little head starts doing the thinking for them.
You were lucky Grace, you're turning and facing him made his nerve break.
I second getting some kind of defense. If you can't carry pepperspray, Naomi's idea is a good one. They even sell "tactical" flashligths that have prongs on them, notionally to use as a lamp (light spills out when placed shiny end down), but will leave a nasty mark when thrust into a hand or face.
Be careful out there. It's still a jungle.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 19, 2014, 10:42:29 AM
I know it sounds like a bummer way to end the night - but I'm not going to let him take that good time I had with my friends away from me. I AM OK!
That is good to hear.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 19, 2014, 10:42:29 AMThe thing that bothers me is that the jerk is still out there and the next woman he decides he wants to talk to won't find him so easy to shake off. :-\
I had a similar experience a few years back at the start of my transition when I was pre-HRT. In my case it was a supermarket car park and the guy drove his car behind me, blocking me in. He also took no for an answer and left as in your encounter.
I do not mean to downplay what happened but both yours and mine may just have been doing what many (most?) guys do and trying his luck. Fortunately most of them also take no for an answer even though we should not depend on that. I think what we need to remember is that most men have absolutely no conception of the panic and worry such encounters can cause. It certainly never occurred to me at the time when I lived as male.
So, you are right not to let this upset you but I agree with being more cautious and perhaps using the very bright light Naomi mentioned. It would be enough to ruin someone's night vision for quite a few minutes.
The thing is though that what might be to them innocent, friendly, "trying their luck" can quickly turn into something more ugly if they're under the influence and/or have poor impulse control. Most rapes are "Crimes of opportunity."
Grace,
I am so sad to hear this happened to you. Women have to take extra care for their personal security, that is just the world we live in. Some men can be real creeps - and think it is fine to be that way.
Now that you know you will be more careful of places like that park. One "tool" that might be of use to rattle the sorts that might try this is something to make noise, such as a very sharp whistle. But caution is a better defence...
Take care of you! Hugs.
Erin
I'm a bit of a night owl and often find myself walking home at 3, 4 or 5 in the morning through a mid-sized Italian city to my home.... I'm quite tall, and have a good sense of myself, but even so, I don't leave home without a little protection in my purse.... it's called a tactical slapper, and yes they are illegal everywhere, but one whack to the face with one of these leather and lead beauties will put a man down for the count. I'd rather worry about the legal ramifications later than get bashed or worse. Of course, you shouldn't pull one of these unless you have a little strength to back up your swing, but if you do, there ain't nothin' better. ;)
http://www.amazon.com/Fury-Tactical-Slapper-Personal-8-5-Inch/dp/B0027I09MM
Quote from: JamesG on May 19, 2014, 11:26:14 AM
The thing is though that what might be to them innocent, friendly, "trying their luck" can quickly turn into something more ugly if they're under the influence and/or have poor impulse control. Most rapes are "Crimes of opportunity."
Most men are not rapists. To run around in fear of all men because of a bad encounter would be lunacy. Speaking to other women to find strategies that work seems the best way forward.
I would also hope that this does not turn into a
"How big a gun can I fit in my purse" thread.....
Quote from: vukapg on May 19, 2014, 11:44:33 AM
Most men are not rapists. To run around in fear of all men because of a bad encounter would be lunacy.
But most men have the potential to be rapists given the right circumstance. It's just a fact of life. It's not "fear", it is being realistic and aware.
QuoteI would also hope that this does not turn into a "How big a gun can I fit in my purse" thread.....
You can always get a bigger purse. ;D
Wow that was indeed scary...
its true that as a guy I used to feel so much safer, now I m kinda scared to walk alone at night especially at this kind of places
Hiya Grace,
Sadly, this is a lesson that most women learn at a young age. As trans women, we come to the awareness of our female vulnerability late in the game. Trust your instincts and learn well the lessons as they come; in time you will develop instinctive strategies and patterns of behavior that will help to keep you safe. Over the years, I've learned to ask people I trust to walk me to my car at night; I've learned to immediately lock my car upon entering it in a parking lot; I've learned to be very aware of my surroundings in secluded areas; I've learned to walk with focus and with confidence whether I feel it or not; and I've learned to carry an innocuous seeming self-defense weapon with me nearly everywhere I go.
As a mid-level competitive pool player, I find myself frequently leaving bars and pool halls late at night with a bit of a walk to my car. I carry in my hand a hot pink (with hearts), anodized aluminum "tactical pen". Basically, it's a beautiful pen made my Schrade (the knife division of Smith and Wesson) about 6 inches long with one pointed end; it's a stabbing weapon. As a beautiful, girly pink metal pen (it also writes pink), I've found I'm able to carry it into secure places, like court houses and airports, but I've been assured by a police friend and by online reviews that, in a pinch, it will make an adequate self-defense weapon.
Have fun. Love life. Be free. Fully express the complete measure of your feminine joy. And by all means, keep yourself safe. Life is meant to be enjoyed!
:)
Miharu
Grace, I'm really sorry that happened to you. You were fortunate it wasn't worse, but that sounds like a really disturbing experience.
And I think you're correct that there's a continuum between apparently harmless "flirting" from strangers, and being pursued and stalked like that. One characteristic of any crime is that it's often preceded by an "interview," in which a criminal is basically approaching you or chatting you up in order to assess whether you're a promising victim. Either of the incidents you describe could have been such an interview; the problem is that you don't always know. Unfortunately, in order to protect yourself, you need to assume the worst, especially if you're by yourself.
Here's a website that has a ton of information on ways to keep yourself safe: it's called No Nonsense Self Defense: Reliable information for dangerous situations (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com), and it focuses more on avoiding them and getting out of them before they escalate than on weapons or physical self-defense techniques, although it has a bit to say about those, too. It's a superb resource: you could spend days reading all the articles posted there, and the folks who run it are experts.
A "tactical" flashlight and a whistle are both good ideas, as is thinking seriously about things you can carry that make effective improvised weapons: keys, a sturdy pen with a sharp tip, etc.
You also might look into some self-defense classes -- not so much the formal martial arts like karate, tae kwon do, and the like, but ones that are oriented to street fighting skills. The best such discipline I know of is Krav Maga. You can take a few lessons, or make it a part of an overall fitness routine (but no, it won't give you bulging muscles ;)) -- either way, you'll learn a lot about how to defend yourself in case the worst happens and you are attacked.
But the most important thing is to educate yourself about mindset and "situational awareness," and I don't know a better place to start than the NNSD site.
Be safe!
Quote from: naomi599 on May 19, 2014, 11:10:47 AM
That sounds scary, I'm glad to hear your alright. For me a non lethal weapon choice is a very bright flash light. The one I carry is:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fenixlight.com%2FUploads%2Fphoto%2F617201390634PM49721.jpg&hash=e03b7dc7fd7954d7d7ec807a22ca13fc9dee0468)
That light is small and light weight for the output it has, but it can surely leave a person blind for a few seconds even with a quick flash.
^^^^^ This X 10000000!
I'm actually a candlepowerforums nut and I also EDC a lithium 18650 battery powered EagleTac TX25C2 with ANSI measured 960 lumens (real lumens out the front). It's compact and one of the brightest tac lights available in its size. It's strobe is very disorienting. You girls need to carry a bright light.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8346%2F8276786688_cdca3258c4.jpg&hash=bf4cc72e13256a40c38cd7f65a1818b1e3de6aa6)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fabload.de%2Fimg%2Feagletactx25c2cweayhp.jpg&hash=c839e33d7070f9619944d043b9ad1a1219a8a29c)
Point the hot spot of the beam at the two legged pest approaching (towards his legs) and command him to stop. To leave, etc. If he approaches closer raise the light to his mid section, command, then to his mouth, then to his eyes if he persists. In the order of aggression. (Frankly you should just run like Forest Gump out of there unless you're wearing heels).
Either way, you'll have to get your own self defense plan in order especially as a girl and depending what's legal at your location.
Also highly recommend reading the book "The Gift of Fear"
Grace, I'm glad you're OK. I've been aware of my vulnerability all my life (I've been a skinny uncoordinated guy - I wouldn't scare anyone) so this sort of thing is always in the back of my mind.
When you said "go away", that's the smartest thing you could have done. Right then, you distinguish between a predatory and a social situation. A predator keeps going. A misguided person seeking social contact (even in a dark park, there are people clueless enough to do this, apparently) had better break off.
Please stay safe. We need you.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 19, 2014, 10:42:29 AM
Anyway... I AM OK.
I'm glad to read that after you had to endure an awful and frightening situation.
Just an FYI, he may have misinterpreted and thought you were 'selling it'. I've had people make that assumption with me a couple times actually. Which isn't a reflection on you, just guys are stupid. And of course, the town I live in is very rednecky and I wear makeup a lot and am not exactly a modest dresser lol. So who knows.
Our girls are taught to give the command, "STOP, Return To Your Seat!" in a forceful manner to break a person concentration and will (yes it works for most). But a real bad guy it wont phase much. From the sound of your encounter, it was not a "dedicated bad guy", just someone that thot he could try his luck. Your reversing and facing him, was your STOP command. You gotta be extra safe now.
Our new mindset never prepared us for this new theater of aggression. That mini-mag light, tactical (prongs on the front end) is a perfect tool for us. I have one I use for work, and now I will get another one to carry all the time.
I am really glad you are ok, shaken by it, but ok.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 19, 2014, 12:29:52 PM
Just an FYI, he may have misinterpreted and thought you were 'selling it'. I've had people make that assumption with me a couple times actually. Which isn't a reflection on you, just guys are stupid. And of course, the town I live in is very rednecky and I wear makeup a lot and am not exactly a modest dresser lol. So who knows.
That was my first thought with the car. But the chasing her down in the park with the 'just wanted to talk to you' isn't normal. Creepy.
Grace, I would not take the route again. Who knows, you may even run into him again. And there are stalkers out there. Who knows if the guy has seen you going that way before, and this was his attempt at a move. Or just a creepy random.
Please try to walk with a friend or take a cab or bus or something. The extra time and cash saved taking a shortcut like that aren't worth it.
Mini MAG lights are severely underpowered because they run on alkalines. I'd recommend staying away from off-the-shelf type stuff and picking up a lithium powered light.
Checkout goinggear.com for instance.
You'll need quality lithium batts and a charger of course. candlepowerforums.com is your friend for the latest. Keep in mind discussion of lights as 'weapons' is not accepted there.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-XINLKyTGKw4%2FUWaOCalHl4I%2FAAAAAAAAA90%2FCYnufSVusCs%2Fs1600%2FDr%2BEvil%2BLaser.jpg&hash=61038b2a7b628febd8a22d10825c25288c49e4ff)
Maybe make a report to the police in case they are tracking such things?
Evie, I suddenly realized, 10minutes of my life just went by watching your sig over.. and over.. and ove :D
Quote from: Paula Christine on May 19, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
Evie, I suddenly realized, 10minutes of my life just went by watching your sig over.. and over.. and ove :D
:) Too cute!
Oh god ... I know what you mean. She epitomizes femininity.
glad your all right. Definitely rethink the walking through a dark park at night thing.
dang, Evie, will you please stop posting.. there is another 7 minutes of my life gone! ;)
I'M KIDDING!!!
its almost a (good) trigger watching her! (please don't change it tho!)
Well a little honk is innocent or wave but following you into the park? Really? That's really kind of creepy.
Glad you're OK but stay away from unlit parks.Take up some self defense,you don't need to be big or strong.A trick I did once when a creepy looking guy followed me after finishing late on the buses was to pick up my phone and say loudly"Hey Mike get me a beer ready I'll be there in 2 minutes" which got rid of him
I am so sorry Grace. What a terrible ordeal for you.
I had a similar experience, also late at night, in a place where I too had traveled before. I was not physically assaulted, and I didn't realize until weeks later what a profound effect that incident had on me. I sort of shut down emotionally, blaming myself for being so stupid and tried to put it out of my mind. I began to experience flashbacks and bad dreams and finally sought help from a therapist who treated me for PTSD. Please take care of yourself and realize that you may need to seek professional help to deal with this experience.
What would happen if you just turned around to your pursuer and yelled in your deepest bellowing man voice "HEY MAN, **** OFF"
Then dash into the bushes while he stands there disoriented?
He would need to take the time to re-evaluate his entire life and sexuality, while you make your getaway.
Ugh, I'm sorry to read that, Grace. I'm glad you're safe. I have to wonder, what goes through people's heads when they do stuff like this? Especially at 8:30, that's not even that late.
This made me laugh out loud. Do I have a man voice? I haven't used it in nearly 16 years... I fear I might sound like Urkel from the TV show "Family Matters" if I tried. :D
Quote from: Debussy on May 19, 2014, 03:34:42 PM
What would happen if you just turned around to your pursuer and yelled in your deepest bellowing man voice "HEY MAN, **** OFF"
Then dash into the bushes while he stands there disoriented?
He would need to take the time to re-evaluate his entire life and sexuality, while you make your getaway.
Welcome to the fun side of womanity. Most men simply have no idea of how they come across--and some do and cultivate the intimidation. This guy could have gone either way.
Living as a woman, I was hooted at, hit on, or treated as a sex object at parties, in a crowded lecture hall by a fellow student, at work by fellow employees and visiting strangers, at automotive repair facilities, at a job interview by my would-be boss, in my own car when I agreed to drive home a coworker's cousin, at a gas station at ten p.m. while I was wearing a heavy ranch coat, and on random street corners. Once, a man asked my then-boyfriend how much I cost. He was persistent and hung around for quite some time. If I had been alone, I would have been petrified. As it was, I was pretty damn scared.
Looking back, I see that I was "cute" but not conventionally attractive. I did have a good body, freckles (some men like them), nice blond hair, and a great chest. Truly good-looking women get it ten times worse. Watch yourself.
^^ And people wonder why I'm a militant extreme misandrist (learned a new word, thanks princess :D).
I'm budding here for a damn good reason - yep.
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 19, 2014, 04:16:02 PM
^^ And people wonder why I'm a militant extreme misandrist (learned a new word, thanks princess :D).
Someone in the community once told me that because I'd been molested and raped, I should be attracted to women, not men. Nope, I'm wired the way I'm wired. Over the years, I have met many good and decent men and only a few random creeps. Unfortunately, the creeps tend to loom large in one's memory.
Grace, so glad you're ok! Your story is so sinister... It's amazing that this thing happens so often in Australia. I felt safer in Europe strangely... Please take care!
I'm so glad you're safe Grace.
Don't live in fear, but take sensible precautions, there are too many nut jobs in Sydney these days, and even though they are the minority, you still have to keep them in mind. Sad to say, this small minority ruins things for the majority of us.
Take care, I hope this won't happen again anytime soon.
Hey Grace, at least you can now check off the: "Stalkers and would be rapist" passing box! :-\
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 19, 2014, 04:16:02 PM
^^ And people wonder why I'm a militant extreme misandrist (learned a new word, thanks princess :D).
I'm budding here for a damn good reason - yep.
glad I could help
So glad you are ok Grace! I can't even imagine the feeling of being stalked like that. Not having to worry about safety all the time is something men definitely take for granted.
Quote from: Kylie on May 19, 2014, 07:05:42 PM
So glad you are ok Grace! I can't even imagine the feeling of being stalked like that. Not having to worry about safety all the time is something men definitely take for granted.
Maybe not trans men so much.
I was still a little nervous cutting through a neighborhood park on my way home from the LGBT center when I was in the habit of walking home from meetings at night. But not as nervous as I probably would have been pre-transition. However, I was never afraid when I left campus at night. I guess I figured that if some random creep was out looking for marks, he could do much better than a butch-looking woman in pants and Rockports, carrying a heavy briefcase that could do serious damage if swung with full force against an assailant.
But old habits die hard. I dropped by a grocery store the other evening and parked near the edge of the lot so I could easily find my car. Another car was parked a couple of spaces down. I got into my vehicle and was messing around with CDs when two tall, somewhat intoxicated men arrived at the other car, brandishing cases of beer and yelling obnoxiously. I instantly locked the doors, forgot about the CD, and got the hell out of there. One short, nerdy-looking fellow in a froofy Swedish car is an easy mark for two guys like them, but that was my SECOND thought. My first was not a thought at all but the usual warning bells that I used to get when I thought I saw movement in the back of my car as I was approaching from across the parking lot.
Quote from: JamesG on May 19, 2014, 11:51:48 AM
But most men have the potential to be rapists given the right circumstance. It's just a fact of life. It's not "fear", it is being realistic and aware.
This is somthing that it hate. why?
Because wether its true or not is irelavent. What is relavent is that it NEEDS to be treated as though it is.
Because its safer to assume a nice guy is a creep.
Then assume a creep is a nice guy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad your ok grace. Ive been in a similer situation myself. But it still doesnt compare to the setting of yours.
Thanks for your replies and well wishes everyone. I was going to respond individually but there are so many I would be at the keyboard forever.
Thanks for the suggestion of the ultra bright mini torch, I think there's a place nearby that I can buy one. Definitely getting a whistle. I wouldn't want to resort to using my male voice unless I really needed to - could result in an even worse outcome. I guess that if he had grabbed my hair he would have gotten a real shock when it came off in his hand.
I had actually thought, up until now, that I had a pretty good danger radar ("dange-ar"??!) and had been quite good at avoiding unpleasant people and situations. I suppose what I hadn't taken into account is that presenting as a 6'3" man was a pretty good anti-danger mechanism in and of itself, the same apparently may not apply as a 6'3" female. Clearly I need to retune my dange-ar to take into account that some men can be very unpredictable when it comes to women and act in ways that are sudden, threatening and random (whether they see it that way or not).
I did think about reporting the incident but I saw so little to be able to report - a tallish, indian accented man, who was smoking a cigarette, appearance and clothing unknown. :-\
So yes, I'll be much more careful now. I knew that unwanted and creepy advances were a sad fact of being a woman in the public space but it's still a shock when it happens.
Get the Storm Safety Whistle.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F2lo6noy.jpg&hash=e80507b0c0a2bcb6999b2709142c700576fdd44e)
Loudest. Thing. Ever. It is unbelievably piercing.
Coined as the Worlds Loudest Whistle for a reason.
Quote from: JamesG on May 19, 2014, 11:26:14 AMMost rapes are "Crimes of opportunity."
According to reading that I have done over the years in multiple sources, most sexual assaults are NOT crimes of opportunity. Most rapes are planned. Perhaps you have some misunderstanding of what a crime of opportunity actually is?
Yeah the majority of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men that the woman already knows. It is sad :(
Quote from: ArchI instantly locked the doors, forgot about the CD, and got the hell out of there. One short, nerdy-looking fellow in a froofy Swedish car is an easy mark for two guys like them, but that was my SECOND thought. My first was not a thought at all but the usual warning bells that I used to get when I thought I saw movement in the back of my car as I was approaching from across the parking lot.
Situational awareness at it finest. This is a survival skill for anyone, of any gender or none. I wish we lived in a universe where it wasn't necessary, but... not so.
Quote from: Ms GraceI wouldn't want to resort to using my male voice unless I really needed to - could result in an even worse outcome.
Yes it could -- I also wouldn't recommend profanity, even "[bleep] off!" It has the potential to escalate any situation. You want to aim for, even practice, "command voice:" Loud, confident, and
very firm.
Quote from: Arch on May 19, 2014, 09:36:12 PM
According to reading that I have done over the years in multiple sources, most sexual assaults are NOT crimes of opportunity. Most rapes are planned. Perhaps you have some misunderstanding of what a crime of opportunity actually is?
Planned as in the perpetrator set out to commit (premeditated), but the actual commission of it relies upon the right conditions, a suitable victim, seclusion, sufficient intimidation or physical overmatch, etc. That is what I meant.
Quote from: JamesG on May 19, 2014, 11:51:48 AM
But most men have the potential to be rapists given the right circumstance. It's just a fact of life. It's not "fear", it is being realistic and aware.
I don't think that is fair to consider most men a potential rapist even given the right circumstances. I think most men would never even think of doing that. It's almost like saying that all women are potential ax murderers because of Lizzy Borden and we know that isn't true. Don't we hate stereotypes and labels? There are crazies out there and I really just don't think we can judge everyone by a few crazies that make it into the news. Being vigilant is always good and being aware of what is going on around you but when you get to the point that you see
everyone as a potential hazard and get jumpy, that's not good. We worry about being clocked? Well being jumpy and acting nervous and scared will get you clocked by a predator as easy prey. Carrying protection is good but be careful. . Tase someone or pepperspray somone just because you
percieved them as a threat and they didn't do anything you get assault charges. God forbid shooting someone by accident or jumpiness.
Being realistic is seeing potential situations happening and being prepared for it but not suspecting every man or anyone for that matter of having rape, murder and mutilation on their minds. I have been in my fair share of extremely bad places that cops wouldn't go into alone.
BTW Ms Grace, that was a potentially bad situation and you were vigilant. I still say honking was innocent. Turning around was a little wierd and would have gotten me a little suspicious and following you into the park was plain creepy, But you zig zagged home and watched your back and that was definately a good thing to do.
I don't want to derail this thread (and I'm more concerned about Grace's well-being), but I agree with Jess42. Tarring 50% of the population with the same brush is counterproductive. One of my best friends were brought up to fear strangers and be wary of men, but that didn't stop her from getting raped.
It's wise to exercise caution and look out for threatening signs, but making blind assumptions because of a person's dangly bits won't help you at all (though if a guy has his cock out, or a woman is waving a dismembered cock at you, then yeah, that's quite threatening).
:police:
While I agree with people let us just be a bit cautious, I do not want this to become a slanging match about rape culture or of opinions about men that are clearly unwarranted.
Thank You
Cindy
Thanks Cindy. :)
As the OP can I also ask that the thread not be derailed by a "these guys are rapists", "those kind of guys are rapists", "this subset", "that subset", etc, discussion?. I mean I get it, you can never tell really. The situation last night was personally freaky enough without people talking about which percentage of the male population are "potential rapists", that weirds me out even more.
Going out into the park during the day light today was actually (and surprisingly) unnerving. I sort of replayed in my mind. "This is where I first heard and saw him; this is where I turned to face him; this is where I told him to go away; where did he disappear to?; where did he come from in the first place?" Very unsettling, but I hope that fades with time.
I have to say I was reevaluating what I was wearing. I know I shouldn't blame myself, and I wasn't but I was wondering "what signal was I sending?; it was hardly provocative, was it?" But I guess some women could dress in a potato sack and some guy would still get turned on. :-\
To be honest I think the signal was a woman by herself. No more no less. I would report it, as you know in Melbourne there have been recent stalkings, and a perp working where Jill Meghear was taken. I think the police have no problems in receiving information that they can collate, even if it is 'I was followed, I can't give a description but he frightened me'. We don't know what else has been reported or who else has had a fright in the same area.
I was warned very clearly when I got the Cindy car to be extremely careful where I parked and to be very aware of people around me and to report anything unusual.
I use to be a black belt in karate, but that is useless to me know as I just don't have the strength to disable a large person. We just have to accept that women by them selves are vulnerable, there is no reason to be frightened, but every reason to be cautious and to use the police force to aid us.
The police in Australia really don't like women being attacked and are willing to listen and act.
So glad you are safe
Hugs
Truly, it is good to be cautious and aware, but not paranoid, and report anything you deem as threatening and/or suspicious
Just don't get labeled as a 'frequent flyer' by the police
Quote from: Ms GraceI get it, you can never tell really. The situation last night was personally freaky enough without people talking about which percentage of the male population are "potential rapists", that weirds me out even more.
Yes, it's the "can't tell really" part that makes it such a problem. FAABs grow up with the knowledge that no matter how strong they are, just about any adult male is much stronger, enough to overpower them. My male friends tell me it never occurs to them that any strange man is a potential threat; but women do have to live with that fear. It has nothing to do with whether any given man actually is a threat -- but the disparity in strength means that he could be. I've had many conversations with women about this, and for many, having some self-defense training, whether in martial arts, using a weapon, or both, is the one thing that has reduced the fear level. It's a huge confidence builder.
For me, this has been one of the few real benefits of growing up gender non-conforming. Being fairly tall and large-framed, dressing in men's clothes, and (they tell me) "moving like a man" all my life, I've been harassed on the street exactly once as an adult (and that was during a brief hippie phase when I had long hair :p). But that fear has always been present to some extent, even so.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 20, 2014, 05:13:48 AM
Thanks Cindy. :)
As the OP can I also ask that the thread not be derailed by a "these guys are rapists", "those kind of guys are rapists", "this subset", "that subset", etc, discussion?. I mean I get it, you can never tell really. The situation last night was personally freaky enough without people talking about which percentage of the male population are "potential rapists", that weirds me out even more.
Going out into the park during the day light today was actually (and surprisingly) unnerving. I sort of replayed in my mind. "This is where I first heard and saw him; this is where I turned to face him; this is where I told him to go away; where did he disappear to?; where did he come from in the first place?" Very unsettling, but I hope that fades with time.
I have to say I was reevaluating what I was wearing. I know I shouldn't blame myself, and I wasn't but I was wondering "what signal was I sending?; it was hardly provocative, was it?" But I guess some women could dress in a potato sack and some guy would still get turned on. :-\
It doesn't matter what you were wearing. You were a woman alone walking in the park. Nothing more or nothing less and in no way your fault. Just be careful. For future reference though, pay attention where you go and what that place has a reputation for and how some people may make assumptions. Always walk with a friend or go the long way around and stay in the lights.
Oh God I'm just glad your okay, I was reading the first few lines and my heart was just going drum crazy. Now I feel scared about walking back from extra classes at night. Just a question, is it okay if I carried a stun gun around in my backpack from now on? Its not a crime is it?
Quote from: Jess42 on May 20, 2014, 03:56:56 AM
I don't think that is fair to consider most men a potential rapist even given the right circumstances. I think most men would never even think of doing that.
Ah.. but what exactly is "rape"? Is it just the brutal sexual assault or is it after a few drinks and an especially persistent guy that pressures you into doing something you didn't want too? It's not black and white...
Quote
Being realistic is seeing potential situations happening and being prepared for it but not suspecting every man or anyone for that matter of having rape, murder and mutilation on their minds. I have been in my fair share of extremely bad places that cops wouldn't go into alone.
That is the context we are talking about here, the threat assessment when in vulnerable situation, not hiding behind the bushes at the coffee shop because, "OMG its.. a man!". If you are walking thru a park in the middle of the night and the only other person around is a man (!) walking up on you from behind, its a prudent thing to just assume he's got something unpleasant on his mind. If he is stupid enough to come up to you and ask you an inappropriate question in that situation then he deserves to get a face full of chemical. IMO.
"If flies had machineguns, frogs wouldn't mess with them."
Quote from: ~Evelyn~Just a question, is it okay if I carried a stun gun around in my backpack from now on? Its not a crime is it?
It depends on where you're located. If stun guns are legal for non-law-enforcement types to own and carry, then it's fine.
But your backpack may not be the best place to carry a stun gun. If someone jumps you, or even threatens you, how are you going to get to it in time to do any good?
Your first line of defense is always to be aware of your surroundings, and to be careful about where you go, especially when you're alone.
Something I don't think has been mentioned in this thread:
never walk around talking on your cell phone, texting, or doing anything on an ipad or such. All these devices not only make you blind to what's going on around you -- they also make you even more of a target; these days, people are regularly mugged for their smartphones and tablets.
All of that said, there's no need to live in fear. If you make a habit of taking the precautions mentioned in this thread (and again, I do recommend
No Nonsense Self Defense as a resource for all of this), you will read much less like a victim, and much more like someone not worth messing with.
We are so resilient and yet so fragile, both as a women who have transitioned / are transitioning, and as human being. Similar to others who have posted, I have had to learn to deal with those all to frequent forms of harassment and threats to my wellbeing that all women experience, and attempt to identify in the moment which are really threats that are potentially physically or emotionally harmful to me. My reaction has become relatively automatic – don't appear afraid, shut down the situation with a light or caustic response, and identify how I will escape the situation should it escalate.
The event that Grace has experienced may be inconsequential one day and profoundly traumatic the next. I have learned through my own experience that the emotional consequence can be significant, running the gamut from anger to bouts of crying to full scale emotional paralysis. It seems only time will tell. I try to prepare myself for these sorts of confrontations, attempt to lean from how successful I was in the moment, and then watch for telltale signs that I need to talk to someone, be she a close friend or a counselor.
Quote from: JamesG on May 20, 2014, 08:40:13 AM
Ah.. but what exactly is "rape"? Is it just the brutal sexual assault or is it after a few drinks and an especially persistent guy that pressures you into doing something you didn't want too? It's not black and white...
That is the context we are talking about here, the threat assessment when in vulnerable situation, not hiding behind the bushes at the coffee shop because, "OMG its.. a man!". If you are walking thru a park in the middle of the night and the only other person around is a man (!) walking up on you from behind, its a prudent thing to just assume he's got something unpleasant on his mind. If he is stupid enough to come up to you and ask you an inappropriate question in that situation then he deserves to get a face full of chemical. IMO.
"If flies had machineguns, frogs wouldn't mess with them."
I want to respect what Cindy and Ms Grace want and not hijack this thread. But in relation to that first part, no means no and if something happens like that and a girl is violated or pushed or pressured into it then yeah that would be rape.
The second part and this goes for all females, a self defense class is priceless. Being able to use common items as a weapon if attacked, the tender place between the legs and a swift kick there is a guarantee that you will have a chance to get away. And never ever give up fighting back. Clawing the eyes, kicking, screaming, biting or anything to allow the chance to escape. Even high heels are really good weapons.
Quote from: Tysilio on May 20, 2014, 09:15:17 AM
Something I don't think has been mentioned in this thread: never walk around talking on your cell phone, texting, or doing anything on an ipad or such. All these devices not only make you blind to what's going on around you -- they also make you even more of a target; these days, people are regularly mugged for their smartphones and tablets.
Same applies to walking around at night with headphones in, blaring music. They cut down your awareness of your surroundings, especially sounds that might alert you to an approaching mugger or predator.
Quote from: JamesG on May 20, 2014, 08:40:13 AM
Ah.. but what exactly is "rape"? Is it just the brutal sexual assault or is it after a few drinks and an especially persistent guy that pressures you into doing something you didn't want too? It's not black and white...
James, despite a request from both Cindy and myself above that this thread not be derailed by rape culture discussion and the like, you persist. It is not helpful to the overall thread,
please desist.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 20, 2014, 04:19:13 PM
Same applies to walking around at night with headphones in, blaring music. They cut down your awareness of your surroundings, especially sounds that might alert you to an approaching mugger or predator.
I actually like having the cellphone up to my ear if approached.
"CAN I HELP YOU? OR IS THERE SOMETHING YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY TO THE POLICE DISPATCHER?"
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 20, 2014, 04:19:13 PM
James, despite a request from both Cindy and myself above that this thread not be derailed by rape culture discussion and the like, you persist. It is not helpful to the overall thread, please desist.
But, but ,but...Jess started it! :'(
(sheepish) Yes, Ma'am.... (/sheepish)
Quote from: Evelyn K on May 20, 2014, 04:25:28 PM
I actually like having the cellphone up to my ear if approached.
"CAN I HELP YOU? OR IS THERE SOMETHING YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY TO THE POLICE DISPATCHER?"
I do this too, I call people and let them know wear I am, when i get that feeling im being evaluated as a target. Even go so far as to request freinds send their bfs to meet me if Im that scared. But I think grace means those moments youre un-awear somthing is wrong/might go wrong.
I apologize too Ms Grace but I do think that I gave some good advice to everyone about self defense classes though. Took one myself and got a lot out of it. If nothing else though just a little extra peace of mind.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 19, 2014, 09:14:18 PM
Thanks for the suggestion of the ultra bright mini torch, I think there's a place nearby that I can buy one.
Put one of these in your purse ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2F35bgzgx.jpg&hash=04567140697207d2e6015931861cf1643c9ac2da)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F2141b1f.jpg&hash=224440ad7fc7b817b14f37daf8729ca79240fb1d)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi62.tinypic.com%2F20idte0.jpg&hash=323d7e11bc5de573a0c1992a8432e2191511872a)
$2,000 but at least you can carry daylight with you in a can :D
Quote from: Jess42 on May 20, 2014, 04:41:22 PM
I apologize too Ms Grace but I do think that I gave some good advice to everyone about self defense classes though. Took one myself and got a lot out of it. If nothing else though just a little extra peace of mind.
No, you're right. Self defence classes are a good idea. I knew a martial arts teacher, nice guy, even he said the most important thing about self defence was being aware of the situation and one's surroundings. Gave me an example of how he verbally defused a potential mugging without resorting to threats of karate kicking their heads off!
Ms Grace, good looorrrrrd, child! My first thread after being gone awhile & you got my heart racing.
Glad you're alright. I've been taking the bus now for over 4 years (not by choice) and during that time have come to feel more vulnerable than ever. I'm careful who I talk to on the bus & how much I reveal if I converse publicly with a seemingly OK person. Make sure no one follows me off the bus. I have no local family so it's not like people would realize I missing right away.
Recently read about Kitestring, however, and plan to use it.
https://www.kitestring.io/
Stay safe, my good people! ~V
Thanks for that info about Kitestring, sounds like a great idea. I live in Australia though so might see if there is a local option.
Sorry I am late to the thread. I am glad you are ok Grace, it must have been very scary.
I think your danger radar is definitely important. I think it is something we have as a survival instinct and need to trust it.
When I was in my teens I was walking the rail road tracks. I use to walk the tracks a lot and for miles. One day in the distance I saw figures. As I approached I saw 4 figures. I felt danger was ahead but kept going. Walking up to them my nerves were ringing, "get out of there". The guys were drunk and I got jumped and I still have a scar next to my right eye from a rock that was used to pound on me. It matches the top of my left eye. Point being it did not have to happen and I relied on my instincts more in the future. I still got jumped in the future but not because I saw or felt it coming.
You were very lucky; it would have been a terrible thing to have happen.
Your recent avatar, you are very cute, just saying :)