Is being on T required to start top surgery? and if not does it look any different or cause any differences when you start on t?
Quote from: chipper on May 21, 2014, 07:44:13 PM
No, T is definitely not required. Plenty of people have top surgery and are NOT on T.
Will this cause any problems when starting T? or to your knowledge.
I'm not entirely sure how it'll turn out for me. Hopefully going for top surgery first and maybe t at the same time. I wish I could start T first but I highly doubt it.
Edited for personal information.
Chest will still look good/like any other guy's, even if not on T. Look at the Top Surgery Recovery thread (it is a sticky). Both me (post#1) and Alexthecat (page 6, post # 114), were not on T at the time of the pictures. I am not sure if there are others in the thread that were not on T, as not everyone indicated whether or not they were on T.
It is required here, but it turns out the American systems works quite different from the European one.
Even so, it is still advised. You will get some pec development (that's why working out some beforehand is also a really good idea) which will help the surgeon sculpt your chest, using the developed muscles underneath. If you are not on T, the surgeon can still sculp it, but is left more in the dark about any pec development that will happen after. I'm not saying that people who have top surgery and no T have bad looking chests. Not at all. But if you have a choice, and want to help the surgeon as well as having the biggest chance of good results, start T first.
Not everyone wants to be on T, so there is no reason to be required. I don't think Dr G cares one way or the other, so not sure all surgeons really care. I realize the NHS (and so on) are different.
--Jay
Quote from: Mr.X on May 22, 2014, 07:17:39 AM
It is required here, but it turns out the American systems works quite different from the European one.
Even so, it is still advised. You will get some pec development (that's why working out some beforehand is also a really good idea) which will help the surgeon sculpt your chest, using the developed muscles underneath. If you are not on T, the surgeon can still sculp it, but is left more in the dark about any pec development that will happen after. I'm not saying that people who have top surgery and no T have bad looking chests. Not at all. But if you have a choice, and want to help the surgeon as well as having the biggest chance of good results, start T first.
What I am reading is something that I have understood to be an old myth.
It isn't like the muscle is going to change shape after you get on T. The boundaries of the pec will remain the same, regardless of size. The surgeon can easily find the line of a pec muscle on anyone.
Garramone said to me "there is no such thing as contouring the chest, you are just placing the incisions in the correct place [under the pecs]". This is a loose quote. His point was "contouring" doesn't really exist, it is just a term that is used...the best doc goes along the pec line...that is all there is to this "contouring".
I am referring to the DI operation only when speaking about the above. I know nothing about contouring and such for non-DI surgeries.
Quote from: aleon515 on May 22, 2014, 03:09:35 PM
Not everyone wants to be on T, so there is no reason to be required. I don't think Dr G cares one way or the other, so not sure all surgeons really care. I realize the NHS (and so on) are different.
--Jay
Some surgeons definitely do require you to be on hormones, but not all do.
Quote from: Brett on May 22, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
What I am reading is something that I have understood to be an old myth.
It isn't like the muscle is going to change shape after you get on T. The boundaries of the pec will remain the same, regardless of size. The surgeon can easily find the line of a pec muscle on anyone.
Garramone said to me "there is no such thing as contouring the chest, you are just placing the incisions in the correct place [under the pecs]". This is a loose quote. His point was "contouring" doesn't really exist, it is just a term that is used...the best doc goes along the pec line...that is all there is to this "contouring".
I am referring to the DI operation only when speaking about the above. I know nothing about contouring and such for non-DI surgeries.
Yes it was my understanding too. I think he has said something like he doesn't figure out where the line is, your body tells him (or maybe that was someone else). But regardless same idea.
@Wheat thins... Yeah but it is not so much a requirement for the actual surgery, as someone who is interpreting WPATH under the old standards or something. Because the current WPATH clearly has no statement re: having to be on T. I made a comment about NHS. I know things are different. But I think at least they have changed the old idea that you'd need bottom surgery first. I saw that on Transsexual summer and I was like WT (heck)!
--Jay
QuoteWhat I am reading is something that I have understood to be an old myth.
Really? If that is the case I stand corrected. For ages I was told that it would help the surgeon. I will definitely ask my surgeon when I see him in a few months.
This really has more to do with the hangups of your surgeon and your insurance than anything else. I had a lot of chest dysphoria and spent years thinking I'd get top surgery and not even go on testosterone, but I changed my mind about hormones and they turned out to be much easier to get than surgery so I got T first. Part of the problem that I had was that healthcare providers understood that transpeople want hormones, and I was able to explain that to them, but I had a very hard time explaining the need for top surgery. Once I had been on hormones for awhile and had changed my name, it was easier for them to understand why I did not want to have female breasts anymore. That kind of obstacle may not be such a big deal in your healthcare setting, idk.
Quote from: Felix on May 26, 2014, 06:30:11 AM
Part of the problem that I had was that healthcare providers understood that transpeople want hormones, and I was able to explain that to them, but I had a very hard time explaining the need for top surgery. Once I had been on hormones for awhile and had changed my name, it was easier for them to understand why I did not want to have female breasts anymore. That kind of obstacle may not be such a big deal in your healthcare setting, idk.
Wow. You know what? I have never thought about it this way before. Meaning, it makes sense to me that the questions from others as to why a "woman" would want to remove her breasts goes away after one starts testosterone. It is like people need to SEE you are a man before they believe you. Makes sense. No doubt this is elementary to others, but somehow reading it the way you posed it, put it into a different light for me...I just hadn't framed it this way in my head prior to your post. Good stuff!
Mr. X, it will be interesting to see what he says. Perhaps he is one that prefers you be on T. My main issue was the idea that T is needed to see the muscle, but even more so the idea of being in the dark about muscle development without T.
As an aside, your pic looks fantastic in the Before/After thread. Great changes, and handsome guy! Go you!
Quote from: Felix on May 26, 2014, 06:30:11 AM
This really has more to do with the hangups of your surgeon and your insurance than anything else. I had a lot of chest dysphoria and spent years thinking I'd get top surgery and not even go on testosterone, but I changed my mind about hormones and they turned out to be much easier to get than surgery so I got T first. Part of the problem that I had was that healthcare providers understood that transpeople want hormones, and I was able to explain that to them, but I had a very hard time explaining the need for top surgery. Once I had been on hormones for awhile and had changed my name, it was easier for them to understand why I did not want to have female breasts anymore. That kind of obstacle may not be such a big deal in your healthcare setting, idk.
Actually I have heard this idea before. It is the T shows that you are serious but also has you read as male. Also the concept of being female you have to love them and want a lot of them (which I think is a stereotype). Funny thing though. BEFORE surgery, pre-op, Dr G was required to have a nurse in the room while he examined me.( I was actually a bit more uncomfortable with her but she did her best to play invisible.) OTOH, AFTER surgery, while I was getting unwrapped, he was by himself. Without the chesticles I am now seen as male enough that I don't need a nurse in there. Weird actually if you think about it. (Wonder re someone with chest dysphoria. They will perform it on a female identified person. I wonder re the nurse in the room then? Or would top surgery render someone like that almost male status?)
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 26, 2014, 06:23:01 PM
Actually I have heard this idea before. It is the T shows that you are serious but also has you read as male. Also the concept of being female you have to love them and want a lot of them (which I think is a stereotype). Funny thing though. BEFORE surgery, pre-op, Dr G was required to have a nurse in the room while he examined me.( I was actually a bit more uncomfortable with her but she did her best to play invisible.) OTOH, AFTER surgery, while I was getting unwrapped, he was by himself. Without the chesticles I am now seen as male enough that I don't need a nurse in there. Weird actually if you think about it. (Wonder re someone with chest dysphoria. They will perform it on a female identified person. I wonder re the nurse in the room then? Or would top surgery render someone like that almost male status?)
--Jay
Interesting, Jay. Did he tell you this is why she was in there? I had my girlfriend with me, but when it was time for him to look at my chest, I asked her to step out of the office. He didn't call a nurse in. Maybe because it was unexpected that my GF would leave? Was the nurse in there the whole time, or just when you had to take off your shirt?
Inquiring minds and all...
Quote from: Brett on May 26, 2014, 08:00:19 PM
Interesting, Jay. Did he tell you this is why she was in there? I had my girlfriend with me, but when it was time for him to look at my chest, I asked her to step out of the office. He didn't call a nurse in. Maybe because it was unexpected that my GF would leave? Was the nurse in there the whole time, or just when you had to take off your shirt?
Inquiring minds and all...
I'm guessing that's why he didn't, he probably expected the gf to stay there. I don't think it is a legal requirement but it is to protect the doctor's arse, but he didn't say anything whatsoever about it. (I think it is typical for any kind of nudity for a male doctor examining a female bodied person.) Yes, the nurse came in only when I took off my shirt, she didn't look at me. I think for such a small room she played very invisible!
I think it's interesting how my "status" appeared to change after top surgery.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 26, 2014, 11:37:07 PM
I'm guessing that's why he didn't, he probably expected the gf to stay there. I don't think it is a legal requirement but it is to protect the doctor's arse, but he didn't say anything whatsoever about it. (I think it is typical for any kind of nudity for a male doctor examining a female bodied person.) Yes, the nurse came in only when I took off my shirt, she didn't look at me. I think for such a small room she played very invisible!
I think it's interesting how my "status" appeared to change after top surgery.
--Jay
I know male doctor/female pt. means a female person comes into the room. Well, along with our boobs being lopped off Garramone gives us a letter saying we are male, so I guess we were female before that surgery, even if we (you) were on T. It goes back to the laws, I suppose. I would be curious to know which specific states allow gender change after top surgery. I don't know of any that will allow gender changed based on just T, and I know there are some who won't no matter what one does (Texas, I think?). Anyone have a link? I will have to check out the Transgender Law Center.
Quote from: Brett on May 27, 2014, 10:39:40 AM
I know male doctor/female pt. means a female person comes into the room. Well, along with our boobs being lopped off Garramone gives us a letter saying we are male, so I guess we were female before that surgery, even if we (you) were on T. It goes back to the laws, I suppose. I would be curious to know which specific states allow gender change after top surgery. I don't know of any that will allow gender changed based on just T, and I know there are some who won't no matter what one does (Texas, I think?). Anyone have a link? I will have to check out the Transgender Law Center.
I don't think it is so simple as a letter like that. But it may be in Dr G's mind. Simple. He does the sex reassignment surgery and you are now male, switcho-chango. LOL. I know some people were very impressed with his letter, and whoever writes them did a great job, but I was like "okay". I don't feel like it changed anything whatsoever in my mind (the surgery did, but that's different).
Male according to the law, varies by state, document, and what it is you are "legally" male for. I think i went over this elsewhere but there aren't too many documents that are "gendered": driver's license; SS card; passport; and birth certificate. Everyone puts a lot of stock in the BC but not a lot of identification is based on it. Very much is based on SS card and driver's license. But I don't actually think that say walking down the street one is legally anything, unless you have one of those absurd "walking while trans" incidents or something. I doubt any trans guys have these, but it is possible I suppose.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 27, 2014, 12:08:02 PM
I don't think it is so simple as a letter like that. But it may be in Dr G's mind. Simple. He does the sex reassignment surgery and you are now male, switcho-chango. LOL. I know some people were very impressed with his letter, and whoever writes them did a great job, but I was like "okay". I don't feel like it changed anything whatsoever in my mind (the surgery did, but that's different).
Male according to the law, varies by state, document, and what it is you are "legally" male for. I think i went over this elsewhere but there aren't too many documents that are "gendered": driver's license; SS card; passport; and birth certificate. Everyone puts a lot of stock in the BC but not a lot of identification is based on it. Very much is based on SS card and driver's license. But I don't actually think that say walking down the street one is legally anything, unless you have one of those absurd "walking while trans" incidents or something. I doubt any trans guys have these, but it is possible I suppose.
--Jay
Ok, here it is: http://www.lambdalegal.org/publications/sources-of-authority-to-amend#D
Here is a list of each of the states and what needs to be done in order to change your birth certificate. For my state (and New Mexico, as an aside), I would need to present Garramone's letter and then I could get a NEW birth certifcate stating that I was male (a "new" birth certificate means that it would not be amended with my old sex still on it. Some states just amend the old one). That is what would make me "legally male". Now that I am "male" I can marry as a male to a female, I can get health and life insurance as a male, etc.
My driver's license and passport marker can be changed with just a therapist's or HRT provider's note. This is a gender marker, not indication of my sex (but yes, it does say male or female, but it is how one sees themselves, not how one's State sees them).
This is the information on social security cards: http://www.lambdalegal.org/blog/lambda-legal-applauds-ssa-update-to-gender-marker-policy
Historically, the SSA required people to send in proof of STS (for FTM this was top surgery). "Now transgender people can change their gender marker with the SSA by submitting either certain government-issued documentation reflecting a change, or certification from a physician confirming that they have received appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition. "
http://transequality.org/Resources/passports_2012.pdf
Passport gender marker change is through ANY physician (including your PCP) saying you have received treatment for your preferred gender.
So, in sum:
1) Passport and social security cards - letter from physicians
2) Driver's License - depends on your state (some will take a letter from your therapist)
http://transequality.org/Resources/DL/DL_policies.html (http://transequality.org/Resources/DL/DL_policies.html)
3) Birth certificate - depends on your state, but I believe that any state willing to change it requires top surgery at this time.
Birth certificate = what I have always heard people describe as them being "legally male" because they can getting married, get life insurance, etc., as male. Additionally, if you change your BC, you can get all the others changed, no physician note needed.
I hope this is useful to people. I found this to be the most updated information out there, but if it is wrong, please let me know/post in the thread because I certainly don't want incorrect information left standing as accurate.
Quote from: Brett on May 27, 2014, 07:44:27 PM
Ok, here it is: http://www.lambdalegal.org/publications/sources-of-authority-to-amend#D
Here is a list of each of the states and what needs to be done in order to change your birth certificate. For my state (and New Mexico, as an aside), I would need to present Garramone's letter and then I could get a NEW birth certifcate stating that I was male (a "new" birth certificate means that it would not be amended with my old sex still on it. Some states just amend the old one). That is what would make me "legally male". Now that I am "male" I can marry as a male to a female, I can get health and life insurance as a male, etc.
I don't know re: birth certificate being the be all and end all. Maybe it has in some people's experience. I have maybe been asked for it about 3 times in my life. One having to do with my teacher license (well actually twice since I got two different ones). A lot fo states do NOT require it for a marriage license. I am pretty sure that AARP and my retirement board are more than happy to sell me life insurance for a price (I have some kind of bare bones one anyway). Maybe other people's experience is fairly different. Actually the last time I was asked for it was one of the 3 and that was for surgery. They told me almost nobody had a changed gender marker on the BC, which is logical I suppose given it often requires surgery!
It's very simple to change the SS (it doesn't actually change the card, there is gender marker on the card). It requires an affidavit that you are receiving medical care from your PHP (I would get a PA or NP to get the MD to co-sign this). The same with a passport. (If you already have a passport. If you don't you do need a BC. I pretty much imagine you can take any BC, your name change document, and affidavit, and you'd be fine. There are some states which do NOT allow gender marker change on the BC.
I was born in Wisconsin. The statement I guess is sex reassignment surgery. It depends on how they want to define that. NM is very easy, and I have heard of people going in with a letter saying they have had medical treatment... The driver's license is super easy. Motor vehicle actually went to the trans resource center and said, how should we do this. Amazing.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 27, 2014, 10:24:02 PM
I don't know re: birth certificate being the be all and end all. Maybe it has in some people's experience. I have maybe been asked for it about 3 times in my life. One having to do with my teacher license (well actually twice since I got two different ones). A lot fo states do NOT require it for a marriage license. I am pretty sure that AARP and my retirement board are more than happy to sell me life insurance for a price (I have some kind of bare bones one anyway). Maybe other people's experience is fairly different. Actually the last time I was asked for it was one of the 3 and that was for surgery. They told me almost nobody had a changed gender marker on the BC, which is logical I suppose given it often requires surgery!
It's very simple to change the SS (it doesn't actually change the card, there is gender marker on the card). It requires an affidavit that you are receiving medical care from your PHP (I would get a PA or NP to get the MD to co-sign this). The same with a passport. (If you already have a passport. If you don't you do need a BC. I pretty much imagine you can take any BC, your name change document, and affidavit, and you'd be fine. There are some states which do NOT allow gender marker change on the BC.
I was born in Wisconsin. The statement I guess is sex reassignment surgery. It depends on how they want to define that. NM is very easy, and I have heard of people going in with a letter saying they have had medical treatment... The driver's license is super easy. Motor vehicle actually went to the trans resource center and said, how should we do this. Amazing.
--Jay
"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.
I think you are missing my point here. I am not debating the fact that we can show our driver's license and get what we want, I am suggesting that it is dangerous to do so if we have not had a "legal" sex change, which I believe equals a change in birth certificate. I am talking about the legal repercusions from signing a document claiming that you are one sex, when your birth certificate says that you are something else (as in a marriage license). To me, that is like any other lie on any other application. Criminal intent.
The original question came from someone's whose birth certificate says female. His driver's license says he is a male. Your belief is that since his license says male that it will not be an issue that he marries as a male? I just don't think this is accurate. This is what I am wondering about. I don't want it to bite him back in the ass.
I would love to hear from others, their understanding of what is "legally male and what is legally female". Is it what the birth cert says?
Thanks.
Quote from: Wolfy on May 21, 2014, 07:23:56 PM
Is being on T required to start top surgery? and if not does it look any different or cause any differences when you start on t?
Haven't read the rest of the responses, but no, it absolutely IS NOT a requirement to get chest surgery. Depending on your size, some surgeons might be reluctant to do it before HRT (it may be because of insurance, or something), but I haven't heard of any in the last decade actually refusing to do it pre-HRT. My bra size was 38K (to be frank, they were seriously each about as big as my head; for some reason, I never got around to burning the old bra, and if anyone wants a photo, I could demonstrate) --starting HRT before chest surgery would've done me no good, in all honesty.
It really shouldn't affect shape any more than the skill of the surgeon.
And cos some people will swear up and down that "you'll double your healing time" or something if you don't get drains, but that's false, too, cos I never had 'em, and my incisions actually healed ahead of schedule. And just cos of how much tissue had to come off (about 9kg --that's nearly 20lbs), my incisions go around to my back. Some surgeons think drains are practically superfluous, that they're a whole lot of maintenance for a negligible effect on the outcome. Other surgeons still use 'em, cos it's what they were taught.
Quote from: Brett on May 27, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.
Not necessarily.
It depends on the country and/or state or province. And apparently some States in the US were seriously considering making genital surgery a requirement for trans men after Thomas Beatie made headlines --I don't know which ones (if any) were successful, but the surgical requirements for getting a letter change on ID or driver's lisence are usually more relaxed than BC ammendment requirements (fun fact: in Ohio, Idaho, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Nebreska, and Puerto Rico, it doesn't matter how iron-clad you think the change on your BC from another state is, it's considered an alteration to a document that that says your sex is [whatever the obstetrician put down when you were born], so in the case of FTMs in Ohio and seeking to marry cis female partners, or at least *stay married* after moving to Cleveland from Boston [as happened to a friend of mine], well, that's a same-sex marriage in Ohio, which Ohio doesn't recognise, and have fun with that, now).
There are very few, if any, "universal" laws regarding transgender people, even just within the United States (don't get me started on the rest of the Anglosphere).
"Sex reassignment" for trans women and men
may fit the above model for a majority of States (I don't know if it is or not, off the top of my head), but you gotta check the local laws. In general, it's easier to update one's state ID, driver's license, or passport than one's BC, and in a few of states, trans people still can't change their BC, and changed BCs from other States aren't recognised by at least one of those states for the purposes of filing as "married" on income taxes (and maybe more).
Quote from: Brett on May 27, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.
I think you are missing my point here. I am not debating the fact that we can show our driver's license and get what we want, I am suggesting that it is dangerous to do so if we have not had a "legal" sex change, which I believe equals a change in birth certificate. I am talking about the legal repercusions from signing a document claiming that you are one sex, when your birth certificate says that you are something else (as in a marriage license). To me, that is like any other lie on any other application. Criminal intent.
The original question came from someone's whose birth certificate says female. His driver's license says he is a male. Your belief is that since his license says male that it will not be an issue that he marries as a male? I just don't think this is accurate. This is what I am wondering about. I don't want it to bite him back in the ass.
I would love to hear from others, their understanding of what is "legally male and what is legally female". Is it what the birth cert says?
Thanks.
SRS is whatever the state wants it to be. IF the state allows you to have top surgery and call it SRS then it's SRS. But some states do specify genital surgery.
I'm not missing you point. I don't agree with it. Sorry clone brother and all. :)
IF the BC is NOT asked for and would NOT be asked for. For instance in some states to get a marriage license, they would not EVER ask for a BC. Depends on where it is. If they would not ask for it, you are NOT committing fraud by saying you are male, if what they ask for says you are (say SS admin or driver's license). It's only fraud if they slip up somehow and you slip by (well I have trouble calling that fraud, but I suppose someone could come after you for it.) There is NO criminal intent or whatever because some other document they don't want says something else.
Some states never allow a change of BC (I think Ohio and the Us territory or protectorate of Puerto Rico), btw. But you can still drive as a male (AFAIK) and could still go get a passport as male. Not sure re: the marriage license.
And probably, if of age, still have to file with selective service.
If the state somehow specifically disallows trans marriage, this is another kind of problem. I am talking re: states and so on which do not specifically disallows it. (Actually NM does not mention gender in the definition of marriage).
It might be unique though:
"Marriage is contemplated by the law as a civil contract, for which the consent of the contracting parties, capable in law of contracting, is essential." (part of NM definition of marriage. LOL)
I am not sure if you can even say that someone is "legally male or female" at all. It's something I hear trans people say, but I'm not sure if there is one standard definition like that.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 28, 2014, 01:20:30 PM
SRS is whatever the state wants it to be. IF the state allows you to have top surgery and call it SRS then it's SRS. But some states do specify genital surgery.
I'm not missing you point. I don't agree with it. Sorry clone brother and all. :)
IF the BC is NOT asked for and would NOT be asked for. For instance in some states to get a marriage license, they would not EVER ask for a BC. Depends on where it is. If they would not ask for it, you are NOT committing fraud by saying you are male, if what they ask for says you are (say SS admin or driver's license). It's only fraud if they slip up somehow and you slip by (well I have trouble calling that fraud, but I suppose someone could come after you for it.) There is NO criminal intent or whatever because some other document they don't want says something else.
Some states never allow a change of BC (I think Ohio and the Us territory or protectorate of Puerto Rico), btw. But you can still drive as a male (AFAIK) and could still go get a passport as male. Not sure re: the marriage license.
And probably, if of age, still have to file with selective service.
If the state somehow specifically disallows trans marriage, this is another kind of problem. I am talking re: states and so on which do not specifically disallows it. (Actually NM does not mention gender in the definition of marriage).
It might be unique though:
"Marriage is contemplated by the law as a civil contract, for which the consent of the contracting parties, capable in law of contracting, is essential." (part of NM definition of marriage. LOL)
I am not sure if you can even say that someone is "legally male or female" at all. It's something I hear trans people say, but I'm not sure if there is one standard definition like that.
--Jay
Ok.
I am curious to know which state does say that SRS for trans men is bottom surgery. Can you tell me which ones? I don't want to have to go through them all and I haven't heard of a state that does require bottom surgery for birth certificate changes.
Jay and Fairy in boots:
I am aware there are different rules in different states for BC, and that also for other things it is national (passport), I put all that in my post (#20). I am also aware, jay, that all states don't allow BC changes. I'm not sure what information I gave that is incorrect? Except for the top surgery automatically being the definition of SRS for all states, I don't think I said anything different from what you guys are saying about information/how to find information on gender marker changes.
I'll go back and read, maybe I missed something. I would like to have the correct information.
I do get what you are saying Jay on if there is not intent there is nothing criminal.
Anyway, Jay, I am curious to know what State requires bottom surgery for birth certificate changes. Thanks.
There are no states that says this specifically. I think it's more of who you get interpreting it. Of course, some do not allow for a change of gender at all (specifically Ohio, Tennessee, ). However there are some states where the wording is particularly, well let's just say weird. Take Louisianna: " Any person born in Louisiana who has sustained sex reassignment or corrective surgery which has changed the anatomical structure of the sex of the individual to that of a sex other than that which appears on the original birth certificate of the individual.." Texas sometimes refuses to change certificates, but there is the ability to do it. (from lambada legal)
I'm pretty sure that the Beatie case aroused the ire of certain folks and maybe got some talk going, but I don't think it actually changed any laws anywhere, at least as far as I could tell.
I'd guess 90%+ of the time top surgery is all you'd need wiht some sort of letter.
BTW, a lawyer friend has this to say, which I thought was interesting (I asked if there was such a thing as "legal gender". "that's a complicated question. but yes. different legalities are governed by different documentation. there is nothing "illegal" about having mismatched documents so that pokes some holes in the idea that there is an absolute male/female. mostly it just means "unquestioned" which again is problematic." Also this, which is interesting: "There are legal implications that show up in contentious divorce and estates situations for people with mismatched gender markers." So those of you getting married (etc) might want to draw up contracts ahead of time. I'm pretty sure I'll get together with her and talk since she said she would. So if you have any questions... Nothing to do with actual cases, I think this is for "fun".
--Jay
Quote from: Brett on May 28, 2014, 06:08:04 PM
Ok.
I am curious to know which state does say that SRS for trans men is bottom surgery. Can you tell me which ones? I don't want to have to go through them all and I haven't heard of a state that does require bottom surgery for birth certificate changes.
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#40
It's unclear if genital surgery is a legal requirement in Texas or if they just *really* want it done on all trans people, but reading that, I'm assuming more the former.
also of note:
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#20
Michigan wants BC ammended in order to alter DL letter (not sure if this also applies to State ID, but likely does). I also can't tell if this also applies to people born in a different state, especially one like Ohio, where BCs cannot be changed.
Most states just vague state that "appropriate surgeries have been performed" (or similar wording) and require a doctor's note saying so. If that means that your doctor is willing to sign off on you after *just* chest surgery and a hysto --or even *just* chest surgery, then clearly in that case "sex reassignment" is chest surgery.
Furthermore, it seems that Illinois has lifted a genital surgery requirement across the board (http://articles.redeyechicago.com/2012-11-01/news/34861549_1_transgender-people-gender-reassignment-surgery-trans-people) -- this means "sex reassignment" for trans women in Illinois is a doctor's note indicating *some kind of surgery* has been done, without genital reconstruction required as "THE surgery".
Also, if you don't want to go through all the information readily available on the Internet (I'm assuming that's what you meant by "I don't want to have to go through them all"?), then please don't make sweeping pronouncements like '"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery. (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165588.msg1436644.html#msg1436644)' It can give people who don't know any better the impression that you
have gone through all the legal information available on the internet, and to those who do know better, it gives the impression that you're prone to making hasty assumptions on very little information.
As an aside, I haven't gone though all the available information, either, but I should also be in by already and wanted to point out some of the info I found *very easily* that suggests there are some states that clearly want all TS/TG people to have genital surgery. Wikipedia also has a few cute graphs on the subject, complete with a footnote about Texas and their extreme reluctance to change birth certificates, at all, but it seems the easiest was for Texas native TS/TG folk to get their BC ammended is to have "all the surgery":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States
Fairy in Boots - I sincerely appreciate you coming in and pointing out my error. I did acknowledge in my reply post that perhaps I was in error. I agree that what I said was a sweeping comment. I hear you say that it is not always clear and that SRS is not always defined as top surgery (or is not always defined at all).
I wrote the statement of "I don't want to go through them all" as a joke to Jay, as he is a friend of mine. He said that some states do state this specifically (post #25). That is why I directed it to him, personally (I wrote the question under his quote. Later I included you in the post). I thought maybe he knew one or two off the top of his head because he is well versed in laws and such.
Jay, thanks for the information on the legality from your lawyer friend. I would say more, but I am late for work! :)
Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 29, 2014, 04:12:17 AM
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#40
It's unclear if genital surgery is a legal requirement in Texas or if they just *really* want it done on all trans people, but reading that, I'm assuming more the former.
also of note:
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#20
Michigan wants BC ammended in order to alter DL letter (not sure if this also applies to State ID, but likely does). I also can't tell if this also applies to people born in a different state, especially one like Ohio, where BCs cannot be changed.
Most states just vague state that "appropriate surgeries have been performed" (or similar wording) and require a doctor's note saying so. If that means that your doctor is willing to sign off on you after *just* chest surgery and a hysto --or even *just* chest surgery, then clearly in that case "sex reassignment" is chest surgery.
Furthermore, it seems that Illinois has lifted a genital surgery requirement across the board (http://articles.redeyechicago.com/2012-11-01/news/34861549_1_transgender-people-gender-reassignment-surgery-trans-people) -- this means "sex reassignment" for trans women in Illinois is a doctor's note indicating *some kind of surgery* has been done, without genital reconstruction required as "THE surgery".
Also, if you don't want to go through all the information readily available on the Internet (I'm assuming that's what you meant by "I don't want to have to go through them all"?), then please don't make sweeping pronouncements like '"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery. (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165588.msg1436644.html#msg1436644)' It can give people who don't know any better the impression that you have gone through all the legal information available on the internet, and to those who do know better, it gives the impression that you're prone to making hasty assumptions on very little information.
As an aside, I haven't gone though all the available information, either, but I should also be in by already and wanted to point out some of the info I found *very easily* that suggests there are some states that clearly want all TS/TG people to have genital surgery. Wikipedia also has a few cute graphs on the subject, complete with a footnote about Texas and their extreme reluctance to change birth certificates, at all, but it seems the easiest was for Texas native TS/TG folk to get their BC ammended is to have "all the surgery":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States
To be fair the info on Texas is 7 years old, so not exactly what you would call the most up to date. And it was the wish of one judge.
Quote from: Brett on May 29, 2014, 07:02:41 AM
Jay, thanks for the information on the legality from your lawyer friend. I would say more, but I am late for work! :)
I'm thinking of going and talkign with her next week about all this stuff. It's interesting to me. Sounds like somewhat of a mixed situation and complex. She's very good and has been workign with the ACLU and stuff.
F.I.B. I think Texas seems like a particularly dicey situation. There are trans people who lost court cases over the ability to change their gender on the BC. (lambada legal source). I imagine there are other people who have gone in and gotten the BC changed in Texas without any trouble at all, the luck of the draw I suppose, but may be the particular court.
I notice that my home state, Wisconsin, dropped the surgery requirement entirely.
--Jay