Where do we cross the line in compromising for people who are new to establishing possible relationships with trans* folk to make them feel comfortable and ease them into accepting our full identities authentically? Example - is it outright demeaning if one were to meet a person who assumed you cis and then upon your trans* disclosure and after many questions and their mini enlightenment, they decide they want to meet but not in public in fear of social criticism?
I wouldn't meet with them in private. If they can't get over being seen in public by strangers then I kind of don't want to be around somebody like that. Especially if you pass really well.
But for cis people who find themselves attracted to trans people, they have to get over their own issues and what their family and friends are going to think. They mostly don't want people to call them gay or whatever.
Quote from: TiffanyT on May 25, 2014, 03:30:14 PM
I wouldn't meet with them in private. If they can't get over being seen in public by strangers then I kind of don't want to be around somebody like that. Especially if you pass really well.
But for cis people who find themselves attracted to trans people, they have to get over their own issues and what their family and friends are going to think. They mostly don't want people to call them gay or whatever.
I understand you but for someone who never met or knew trans* people before to stumble upon you and you disclose and it's the first time they have ever been attracted knowingly to a trans* person, you don't think you should give them time to process and get comfortable? Is a few low-key dates for them to build up courage to face society too much?
Sounds like they just want to make sure you pass before they will be seen with you. My issue with that is that as soon as someone does clock you for whatever reason around him, then likely he will bail out quicker than an overturned ferry captain.
I guess the question is this: Do you think that attitude has a chance of changing? (I'm assuming your context is romantic relationships rather than platonic. Platonic you can give a little more leeway to.) I would say it is as much (or more) about them accepting themselves as it is about them accepting you...and self acceptance, is often not a short road. They may not even want to see themselves differently, much less allow others to see them that way....now or ever.
.
I have a friend who has been out for quite some time. She would often hear that same line from men ('not in public') after disclosure. The problem is that just about all of them wanted her to be the 'woman on the side' or their 'dirty little secret' or 'booty call'. They wanted to have sex with someone that had a penis, but not be seen as gay. A few even did social things with her occasionally (though, again, not in the local public scene). But one thing that was universal was that they weren't looking for a full relationship with her, they were just leading her along and using her at their convenience. That is something I see as demeaning.
.
I don't know the situation you're dealing with, or if the person is worth a little good faith or not...but I'm very skeptical, as every time I've heard of that line being used...the person isn't working toward acceptance of you and themselves...they're just trying to work you over and get what they want. (of course, if you both want that, and don't care about a relationship, none of this really matters)
.
So, "where do we cross the line in compromising", and help "ease [others] into accepting our full identities authentically?" My line would be crossed as soon as someone asked/expected me to hide my authentic self. If I knew them IRL as an acquaintance, I might meet them a couple of times (in a purely platonic sense) to see how they felt, and to see if there was any hope of that changing. If this is some online person you've never met, I'd say don't meet them privately. It may not be safe. Overall, if someone expects you to hide in order to be in their life, they don't have your best interests at heart.
Your safety needs to be your primary concern. And anyone who needs time to 'process' out of fear of social stigma isn't worth the time. You want someone who's *proud* to walk down the street arm in arm with you. You don't need to be their 'guinea pig' until they figure out where they stand. ~V.
Quote from: llerret on May 25, 2014, 03:33:27 PM
I understand you but for someone who never met or knew trans* people before to stumble upon you and you disclose and it's the first time they have ever been attracted knowingly to a trans* person, you don't think you should give them time to process and get comfortable? Is a few low-key dates for them to build up courage to face society too much?
I think some time to process is ok. But presumably you met in public or somewhere. I mean, I don't imagine you walked into somebody's front door and said hi. I'm not saying to go have thanksgiving dinner with the whole family or anything, but meeting for coffee or dinner or something should be pretty low key and a safer environment. God forbid you get locked up in a house somewhere with somebody you don't even know very well.
I would definitely be careful about where/how you "meet" in private, but I kind of feel differently than most people I guess. I know before I came to terms with this and accepted myself a couple months ago, I would have been cautious about meeting up with someone in an area where I knew everyone. Not because there would be something wrong with them, but because there was something wrong with me. Even though I masqueraded as an "ally" and would speak up for our rights and well being, it was too close to home. Hell, I am just now ready to go to a trans meeting for the first time, and I am no where near telling anyone about it. There are a lot of reasons why someone may be shy about that, and it doesn't mean that they are closed minded or a bad person......it may just mean that it is new to them and they need time to learn about and process everything.
I would never cut off someone who wasn't one hundred percent "gung ho" of accepting me off the bat, especially if they seemed open to a friendship/relationship with me. I would see them as someone who is still ahead of most people in my area and a potential friend and future ally of trans people. The way I see it is that the only way we are going to become accepted in the mainstream any time soon is if more cis people get to know us as people, grow to care for us individually and see that we aren't that much different from them.
Quote from: Valerie on May 25, 2014, 05:39:12 PM
Your safety needs to be your primary concern. And anyone who needs time to 'process' out of fear of social stigma isn't worth the time. You want someone who's *proud* to walk down the street arm in arm with you. You don't need to be their 'guinea pig' until they figure out where they stand. ~V.
This is exactly how I feel concerning this. I know I'd be worried about my safety as well as being someones Guinea Pig.
Best Wishes!
Ally :icon_flower:
Nobody should compramise WHO they are.
In terms of the word compramise means weaken :p Never weeken your safety.
Im met a guy in RL (nothing official yet) but, after metting a few times and hours long conversations, he invited me out. This was the day before a shave day. its a long story but i can only shave twice a week.
And i told him about my fear of somebody saying or doing somthing. and id rather not put him though that. his responce? sooooo? they can say what they like, it doesnt matter to me. and besides this is the 21 centuary its time poeple stopped being so old fashioned. your a great person and if sombody doesnt take the time to know that its their loss. tbh he said a lot more things. (i made quite the protest).
He might just be a great friend. its erly days yet, point is if ther is any care for who you are, they shouldnt be any subterfuge. or cloak and dagger behavour.
Compromise for no one. Ever. You are who you are, if someone doesn't like it screw 'em.
I think the whole no compromise thing is great in theory, but isn't really practical. Everyone compromises to some extent. Cis people, trans people, gay, lesbian, Martian....if you are a part of a group, you are compromising some part of yourself to be in that group. Don't get me wrong, i def think there is a point to move on with people who don't move toward acceptance, but shutting the door in their face at the beginning does not seem productive or rational to me. It happens to trans people so much, I am surprised we are so quick to do it to other people.
Quote from: Kylie on May 26, 2014, 12:25:01 AM
I think the whole no compromise thing is great in theory, but isn't really practical. Everyone compromises to some extent. Cis people, trans people, gay, lesbian, Martian....if you are a part of a group, you are compromising some part of yourself to be in that group. Don't get me wrong, i def think there is a point to move on with people who don't move toward acceptance, but shutting the door in their face at the beginning does not seem productive or rational to me. It happens to trans people so much, I am surprised we are so quick to do it to other people.
THIS!!!
Some people need time to ease in to the concept. That said, I still wouldn't be meeting someone for the first time in a non-public place, especially if I met them online or through a dating app.
I do try to compromise a lot when others' comfort is involved if I think they are capable of change. Obviously some people are hellbent on remaining ignorant and keeping them comfortable is not worthwhile. But some people just don't understand and will eventually if given enough information, and with them I set certain boundaries and then see how it goes.
Safety is super important. No matter what anyone's hangups are, refusal to meet in public is a red flag. I wouldn't indulge that myself.
Quote from: Felix on May 26, 2014, 06:06:06 AM
Safety is super important. No matter what anyone's hangups are, refusal to meet in public is a red flag. I wouldn't indulge that myself.
This. 1000x this.
As far as compromising on other things... I don't know it depends on what it is.
Quote from: Kylie on May 26, 2014, 12:25:01 AM
I think the whole no compromise thing is great in theory, but isn't really practical. Everyone compromises to some extent. Cis people, trans people, gay, lesbian, Martian....if you are a part of a group, you are compromising some part of yourself to be in that group. Don't get me wrong, i def think there is a point to move on with people who don't move toward acceptance, but shutting the door in their face at the beginning does not seem productive or rational to me. It happens to trans people so much, I am surprised we are so quick to do it to other people.
Probably because we get hurt a lot and develop defensive mechanisms. I know the difference between people who tolerate me versus people who openly accept me without reservation. I don't think anyone is talking about shutting any doors ASAP, but talking about going on a date with a complete stranger. Go for a picnic or drinks or something.
Quote from: Kylie on May 26, 2014, 12:25:01 AM
I think the whole no compromise thing is great in theory, but isn't really practical. Everyone compromises to some extent. Cis people, trans people, gay, lesbian, Martian....if you are a part of a group, you are compromising some part of yourself to be in that group. Don't get me wrong, i def think there is a point to move on with people who don't move toward acceptance, but shutting the door in their face at the beginning does not seem productive or rational to me. It happens to trans people so much, I am surprised we are so quick to do it to other people.
OOOhh now i understand.
You mean as in comming too an arangement.
Yes a mutual understanding is great. (if you can get one)
If their worried about the same sorts of negative reaction we are, then we need to take that into consideration. That said though they still need to understand our concerns about meeting strangers in secluded places.
So a not so populated place, but not an isolated place either.
A Small amount of people as aposed to none and a lot.
Sorry took compramise to mean, sacrificing our position with no effort made on theirs. (its a defo no no) That works both ways too. I wouldnt blame cis person not dating a trans, if said trans had no regard for how they felt.
Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 26, 2014, 05:34:24 PM
That said though they still need to understand our concerns about meeting strangers in secluded places.
So a not so populated place, but not an isolated place either.
A Small amount of people as aposed to none and a lot.
Absolutely! That sounds like a good compromise. If they don't respect your safety concerns, I would definitely say see ya later.
I would not meet someone privat who could not be seen with me in public.
if they have a hard time or whatever or worry of meeting someone they know they can go somewhere really crowded or outside the country or they can say you are just friends, or coworkers or whatever relations, but the
thing hidding behind doors and not even could acknowledge you outside is very bad and dosen't lead to anything good.
I don't think its too much to ask for actually its at least what you should expect for any people.
I dont tell my friends or famely either that I can't meet up with them in public because I worry what people will think of me if they see them.
If you are after a normal relationship don't bother with those kind of people. Them not wanting to be openly seen with a trans person is a product of their insecurity (or they don't want to be caught by their partner..). I mean at that point they're already viewing you as an other, unless you want to be treated that way?
I like how you call it the mini enlightenment, that is dead on!
I have had this experience with a few guys, the first time it ended up being a negative and the second was a positive- so it does go both ways. I think mostly it depends on the person.
The first guy took a few days to come to terms with it, and then became super into it... so much that I heard from one of my friends that he had mentioned wanting to "try" with a trans woman... whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. I wasn't getting fully compatible vibes from the guy anyway so in my head he was thrown into the "creeper" bin- pretty much never to be given a chance at "trying" with me.. ever. Bad choice of words, dude.
With the second guy it happened very fluidly. He was extra careful about even revealing that he was attracted to me- it was actually super cute. We ended up going on a few dates, having a few intimate (non-sexual) moments and have become great friends. It might be possible that things could pan out more after SRS, but I am also just happy taking it as a learning experience and being friends with him.
All I know is, I can already see that it goes either way and it just depends on the person. Someone who initially is not into it or has needs to be private about it would not ever get to step 2 with me. I am out and proud, whoever I am with needs to support that because there is absolutely no way that I will be expected to keep it under wraps unless it is my decision to do so.
I'd be more worried about the safety issue. When a stranger wants to meet you but doesn't want to meet you in public, for whatever reason red flags should be going up whether your trans or not.
I had a guy hit on me two days ago at our little convenience store close to my house, and invited me back to his place for BBQ. Beside the fact I like girls, not guys, I turned him down just due to my safety. Where I live it's very rural, and while he might have been sincere and on the level, you just don't know these days, and can't take the chance.
Ally :icon_flower:
Compromising for cis folk? Over my dead body.....maybe.
Easy: is the relationship or the action damaging to you? Are you sacrificing something important to your identity? Then the cost is too high. Compromise is a two way street and all parties should get something positive or at least neutral from it. There is no one sided compromise, that's a sacrifice. If it is damning and hurts you or the other person, and only one person is happy with it, the cost is too high.
I've found myself having to compromise sometimes, because it looks like nitpicking if the meaning of what they said wasn't explicit. For example, last night I was talking to a woman and she said "I don't really understand any of this, because I'm heterosexual." Now, I'm heterosexual too, I'm a man and I like women. But I let that point go because this was all new to her and she was really making an effort to understand me.
As to where I draw the line, I don't really know. Most people have always tried to be respectful. I can say I would NEVER tolerate someone using my old name and my family gets a stern correction when they slip up and don't correct themselves. I sometimes correct she's, but not always, it depends on the situation.
If they want to meet us, then it should be in some public setting only. Like meeting with other members in private setting . We do not know if they are serial killers or really want to do no harm to us. That environment should be a safe one for both. After all we are the ones who will be put at risk.
Maybe I have too much paranoia? I lived in a time if you went out dressed you could be killed and the police would NOT TRY TO Solve our murder.
If a person, cis or trans, who I don't know want's to meet me in this day and age, it must be in a well lit public place. You can't be too careful these days. There's just too many things that can happen. This is for both our piece of mind and our own safety.
Allie :icon_flower:
Safety is really important! I would not meet someone in private. It's just too risky. I think actually that goes for cis people meeting other cis people in a dating type situation.
--Jay
I'm know I'm late to this topic, but I just spotted it...
I'm one of those cis folk I hear so much about. :O All I can do is relate my own experience, but here goes: when my partner realised she'd been suffering GD her whole life (read: she was pretending to be a "he" back then), I went into panic mode. I'm not a lesbian, but my soulmate declares she's a she! Well, we slowly got over that and I loved her every bit as much as I ever did - maybe more so because I saw how much she was suffering - and I supported her through it all. However, then came the "I want to go out in andro female clothing, and one day go out in full girl mode". I didn't feel ready for that and I was honest with her. But soon enough we started going shopping together and having fun picking clothes, and then she started going out in them... and she looks beautiful.
Last week, when I planned to take her away for a night to propose to her, I suggested she go out in full girl mode (with makeup and a chest), because I knew I wanted to propose to the person she is, not the person she hides as. It was our first time out like that, but it went well - and she said yes when I popped the question! We also went to a Scottish trans meetup yesterday in full girl mode, and we're both slowly earning that the biggest fears are in our own heads.
So... the end of this rambling tale is... don't write us cis off just because we may need time to sort our own feelings out. It's a shock to learn about GD, and at first we don't always get how horrific it is for you.
However, that's not to write off your safety concerns. DEFINITELY don't go into private places with a stranger, no matter how nice the stranger seems online. Surely there's a neautral location? And if your cis is understanding, he/she would accept that you need to protect your safety. Maybe that's the clue you need to look for: whether they understand and support your concerns.
(Whoa! I don't have to fill in the captcha test to post this, and I thought that only happens at 15 posts!!! Yippee!!!)
I compromise for cisgender people a lot in terms of gently educating instead of scolding when I hear them say something questionable about trans people, patiently playing along when they think my gender identity is interesting fodder for friendly debate and decide to play devil's advocate and challenge me on it, and answering questions honestly and openly, even if they're sometimes things that ought to be quite private (I do have my limits, mind~). Of course we shouldn't really have to be educators, nor should we have to argue for the legitimacy of wanting to be who we were born to be. But unfortunately the world we live in is one where a lot of people still don't know very much about trans people at all, and I do try to remember that, and exercise patience in a lot of situations where my immediate impulse is to bite off someone's head. (^ω^) With that in mind, I think I could probably date someone who was a little ignorant or naive about what trans people are, provided they came into the relationship with an open mind, listened to what I had to say, and tried to become more well informed rather than simply clinging to their incorrect, ignorant assumptions of what my gender identity signifies.
In terms of beginning to date someone who couldn't be seen in public with me, though... Hmm. I think I'd have to draw a line there. If you were to swap gender identity out for ethnicity here, and it became a case of, say, someone from a small, insular white community being happy to date someone of an ethnic minority but wanting to keep it all behind closed doors to begin with because of their own internalised issues about other ethnic groups, I think most people would agree that that is quite unfair and really rather degrading to the person of the ethnic minority. And I don't think that different standards should be applied with transgender people simply because ignorance about us is more widespread. I understand that such a reaction probably wouldn't be born out of spite, of course, and would be the product of uncertainty, feelings of vulnerability, and likely internalised homophobia and transphobia. But I would just find it too demeaning, upsetting and outright exhausting to be with someone like that. I personally think that if someone is willingly approaching the prospect of beginning a relationship with a transgender person but can't even bear to be seen in public together with their prospective partner, then the onus should be on them to sort out whatever issues are causing that, and it shouldn't be on the transgender person to compromise for and indulge those issues. Not fully understanding a lot of things about a new partner because they have a set of very different life experiences to anyone you've ever dated before is, I think, understandable. But I don't think it's fair to ask someone to begin a relationship with you if you're too ashamed to even be seen with them. I'd rather be with people who openly love and accept me as me, even if it meant being single and just hanging out with friends.
All of that being said, I would be a lot more lenient if the situation were closer to what Kitty described above, and I had transitioned from male to female midway through an active relationship. If someone knows from the start exactly what I am and is embarrassed to even be seen with me because of it, I'm unlikely to stick around, whether they want to be my friend or something more. But if I suddenly introduce a huge change into an important, already established relationship, then I think it's fair that I give the other party a little space and time to come to terms with that change. Doubly so if the change also forces them to reevaluate their own identity (such as having to accept that you are now someone who identifies as heterosexual in a gay relationship, or vice versa). Of course I wouldn't tolerate a reaction that amounted to outright hostility, but if someone I really loved and was invested in politely stated that they wanted a little time to get their head together and come to terms with a fairly significant change to the dynamic of our relationship, I think that would be fair. To me that's a very different thing to someone asking to date you, but wanting to keep it secret because you're transgender.
/wall of text
Ergh... I hate the compromise, and after the first time doing it, I've decided I'm just kinda fed up with the idea.
I was with a friend of mine for a while in some quasi-romantic thing, but he still thought that for some reason I wanted to be treated like a girl, or that I would act like a girl in the bedroom, or something. Like, okay buddy, you've known me as male for ages, do you really think I'd want something like that? He's bi, too, which almost made it worse.
I thought it was just part of being trans for a while until I had a relationship with a cis gay man who was actually really respectful and understanding, even though it was his first time dating a trans man. Now I have a general rule of not wanting to date people who haven't had any experience with the LGBTQ+ community, because I feel like I've found a lot more understanding from people who work more in activism, even if they don't know a lot about trans people in particular. The other guy was bisexual, but he had never really been around anyone else who was LGBTQ+ but me and a few friends, so I feel like he really didn't get it and just had too much exposure to cisheteronormative media without much to balance it out. I'm kinda rambling, but I think I've gotten the point across?