Just wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.
Like, as a feminist, I have learned a lot about how women are culturally oppressed by rigid social structures... and I wonder if some part of my need to identify as male is tied to fighting back against those structures of oppression.
For instance, "if I was a boy I wouldn't have to wear dresses" was something I thought frequently as a kid when my family would try to dress me up for things.
So, I feel like some of my identity is tied up in that struggle to reclaim myself from those structures of power... and if there were no gender roles to contend with, I'd probably be okay with whatever bodily characteristics I ended up with (as much as I don't like certain aspects of my body's form and function).
At the same time, I feel like that's legitimate - I really don't want to have to wear dresses (and I don't have to, because I'm an adult! Yay!). And I really don't want to be paid less, or be immediately thought of as less intelligent or qualified or competent. And I don't want to be told constantly that "you'll change your mind, one day you will want kids and want to give birth to your own kids" (my personal thoughts on this: yuck! and ow!)
On the other hand I worry that transitioning and passing will lead to me just taking advantage of male privilege in a system that still systematically oppresses (both cis and especially trans) women. Is part of my motivation for transition coming from a desire to take hold of that privilege? If so, am I a good enough person to wield it in a way that supports (cis and especially trans) women and helps them to gain better footing in society?
And if society treated us all equally, would my internal feelings be enough to still make me want to transition?
Just a curious moral and intellectual struggle I've been engaging with recently... wondering about other people's thoughts and conclusions, or if you've questioned these things yourself and where it has led.
Quote from: pianoforte on May 30, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
Just wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.
Like, as a feminist, I have learned a lot about how women are culturally oppressed by rigid social structures... and I wonder if some part of my need to identify as male is tied to fighting back against those structures of oppression.
For instance, "if I was a boy I wouldn't have to wear dresses" was something I thought frequently as a kid when my family would try to dress me up for things.
So, I feel like some of my identity is tied up in that struggle to reclaim myself from those structures of power... and if there were no gender roles to contend with, I'd probably be okay with whatever bodily characteristics I ended up with (as much as I don't like certain aspects of my body's form and function).
At the same time, I feel like that's legitimate - I really don't want to have to wear dresses (and I don't have to, because I'm an adult! Yay!). And I really don't want to be paid less, or be immediately thought of as less intelligent or qualified or competent. And I don't want to be told constantly that "you'll change your mind, one day you will want kids and want to give birth to your own kids" (my personal thoughts on this: yuck! and ow!)
On the other hand I worry that transitioning and passing will lead to me just taking advantage of male privilege in a system that still systematically oppresses (both cis and especially trans) women. Is part of my motivation for transition coming from a desire to take hold of that privilege? If so, am I a good enough person to wield it in a way that supports (cis and especially trans) women and helps them to gain better footing in society?
And if society treated us all equally, would my internal feelings be enough to still make me want to transition?
Just a curious moral and intellectual struggle I've been engaging with recently... wondering about other people's thoughts and conclusions, or if you've questioned these things yourself and where it has led.
No I know that I'm Trans and that because I have sex dysphoria and I do think about gender critically and do not try to relate transitioning with power structures as far as thinking that I should transition because being a woman sucks. I am a man because when I think about my body and my mind and everything about me that's what I am. Political transsexualism hurts more than it helps people who are trans and gender noncomforming. Women do have a lot of forces that work against them and I lived as a woman for a majority of my life so far so I internalized a lot of that stuff and know where women stand in issues, but I don't consider myself a feminist and never did. Feminist politics never catered to me as a poc person in an lgbt space who was poor but striving in the academic field.
Think about it like this: If you had the choice to never want children (I don't in any circumstance) and want to dress as you like while fighting for your rights to be paid equally but have no social or physical dysphoria you are most likely not trans. I say most likely because some people don't understand the nature of dysphoric feelings. Not just feeling uncomfortable about gender standards, but feeling alienated from being a woman and female. Having a deep down disassociation with being refereed to as a woman not because of gender roles, but because you know that you aren't a woman.
Transitioning gives you a place of power, but honestly you don't just wake up one day and start oppressing people. You have subtle power over people right now and don't express it in your day to day life. Fighting against sexism is something that lots of men do. Patriarchy is the problem, and how we use that as a failsafe to guard men's actions as a whole within sexism. Being aware of your place of power while transitioning can still be important to you. Knowing what things feminism are fighting for and fighting alongside women can be important.
I think politically transitioning to give a better voice to trans people will wear you down if you really aren't transgender. I know discourse lately is all about breaking down gender lines and fighting for trans rights, but I think it leads people to believe they can identify as a gender to throw away or gain power. Being a man to me isn't about power, it's about being who I truly am without being scared of myself anymore. I still research LGBT studies pertaining to black people while giving space for women to talk about the issues they need.
Here is some reading from a really good tumblr
http://helpfultransinfo.tumblr.com/tags
The best stuff is the
http://quietvoiceofreason.tumblr.com/post/84993440234/raeltran-psysomatics-nowyoukno-source-for
http://toplioncub.tumblr.com/post/55030967558/gender-social-dysphoria-vs-sex-dysphoria
http://genderpoliceman.tumblr.com/post/37470816879/some-questions-which-helped-me-when-i-was-questioning
Nope. In my case, it's got absolutely nothing to do with wanting male privilege, or of trying to break free from some internalised perception of women being inferior. If men were socially, economically and physically inferior to women, I'd still identify strongly with being male. Because that's just how the gender identity section of my brain is wired.
In the eyes of many gender therapists and GICs, a potential FtM presenting with a desire to transition mainly so that they could enjoy male privilege would ring alarm bells. So whilst it may well be a valid part of your experience, it isn't generally accepted as being a valid reason for transitioning in its own right.
For many of us, having experienced female disadvantage at some point in our lives has made us more aware of feminist issues, and perhaps more sensitive to making sure we're not part of the problem.
I'm with FTMDiaries. My problem is having a body map, that doesn't match my body. Society is just backlash stuff.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 30, 2014, 08:16:53 PM
I'm with FTMDiaries. My problem is having a body map, that doesn't match my body. Society is just backlash stuff.
Ditto. That's actually how I figured out for myself that I didn't want to transition just for male privilege - it's the
anatomical mismatch that bothers me the most. The patriarchal society oppresses men too, so by transitioning you basically replace female oppression with male. It's further complicated for me as I am not white, so I don't see myself gaining much socially even as a man.
No.
Gender roles have nothing to do with the fact that my body does not feel like it belongs to me. After over a year of testosterone therapy, I don't feel such a strong disconnect anymore, which is a relief. It's still there, but it's not nearly as severe, and it's something I can ignore most of the time instead of being under constant stress from it. Even if we lived in a society where women were seen as powerful and men were seen as weak, I would still never be a woman. I would be an unusual man, but I would be a man nonetheless.
We live in a borderline rural part of New England - won't get more specific than that. Everyone is accepted here. I wasn't pressured to act female. We don't have solid gender roles here as it is. We're allowed to exist as individuals. Uniqueness is celebrated and encouraged. I isolated myself socially (which was quite easy - I was homeschooled) because I didn't connect with others easily. I had no siblings or young family members, just a few friends - a couple of guys and a couple of tomboy girls. Most of my time growing up, especially as a teenager, was spent exploring the woods. Even when I was in the woods for days on end, only coming home long enough to eat and sleep, I knew who I was; and there are no gender roles in the woods.
Quote from: pianoforte on May 30, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
Just wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.
Not me.
I don't care about sociological issues or "male privilege" or any of that ilk. My issues are body-related. I didn't wake up one day and "realise" that I was trans*. I have known that my body was incongruent with my mind since I was 4 years old.
Hope you guys don't mind a girl interfering here? :-\ Looking at the question from a MtF viewpoint I did a lot of thinking about this topic before replying. I have always considered myself unfortunate to be born the wrong sex so transition was necessary for me so society didn't guide me in that aspect. As for the OPs question (which I thought was very good) I am on the opposite spectrum. After a life long career of making life and death decisions I am very glad to take a sort of back seat position in life now. So I guess what I am trying to say is I am giving UP power and very willingly. I have made enough hard decisions for four or five lifetimes and gladly concede it. I fully understand what this means as far as social and relationship issue's and the loss of male privilege. I think it will be so nice to have someone else in the drivers seat now with me relegated to a more of a support position. Hope this makes some kind of sense and is pertinent to the OPs topic. :)
I'm with the other guys.
Although, in a way, I guess I'm transitioning for power since being who I am and being happy with myself is power. Much more power than society could ever give me regardless of what gender I am. As for society, pfff. As if I'd let anyone or anything stand in my way regardless of anyone's gender.
Which is a nicer version of what I reminded my mother of when she had the nerve to ask me this.
Quote from: Edge on May 31, 2014, 08:37:53 AM
I'm with the other guys.
Although, in a way, I guess I'm transitioning for power since being who I am and being happy with myself is power. Much more power than society could ever give me regardless of what gender I am. As for society, pfff. As if I'd let anyone or anything stand in my way regardless of anyone's gender.
Which is a nicer version of what I reminded my mother of when she had the nerve to ask me this.
I agree. You get more power being yourself instead of living up to societies cis standards.
This is something I had to work through myself... I actually had a behavior health nurse try to talk to me about my feminism... and how she thinks I just need to find my "female" voice. That that was why I felt I was transgender. Sent me for a brief mind eff, but I'm all the better for it I suppose. Because I had to think to myself.. "Is this what I am doing?" I was raised with a not so great view and mentality surrounding women, but now consider myself an avid feminist--- and avid male feminist.
It took me a long time to heal my relationship with women, but this had little bearing on my gender in the end. As others have said, I aim to heal the vast chasm between my mind and body. To see myself once and for all when I look into a mirror, and that others will see me for myself. That is all really.
I don't even see being trans as a potential way to gain those things anyway... considering our lack of human rights in most places.
Pianoforte -YES.
Considering these points are part of the reason it took me more than 10 years after realizing I was genderqueer to decide I needed to and it was ok for me to transition.
I determined that the societal bonuses of being perceived as male were not what was driving me. I'm glad to have done so much reflecting on these issues, as I think it will continue to help me relate to a wider variety of people and be more aware of my own biases.
No. Not only is dysphoria a very physical thing for me - surgery and hormones have done much more to remove a disturbing feeling of disconnect than years of attempted "acceptance" - but several factors while growing up gave me a terrible impression of men. Certainly not the kind of person I would WANT to be. That's something I'm still dealing with.
No. If anything I think extremely highly of and I'm slightly honored to have been born female first to understand the pain they have to endure. Me being trans is an unfortunate instance of my life that has nothing to do with how I feel about either gender, but how I feel about myself. If I wanted to prove I was as good as a man as a woman, I'd prove it. I wouldn't cross dress to prove a point. The best voices are made when they come from the inside not what you see on the outside.
Quote from: StirfriedKraut on May 31, 2014, 11:01:10 PM
No. If anything I think extremely highly of and I'm slightly honored to have been born female first to understand the pain they have to endure. Me being trans is an unfortunate instance of my life that has nothing to do with how I feel about either gender, but how I feel about myself. If I wanted to prove I was as good as a man as a woman, I'd prove it. I wouldn't cross dress to prove a point. The best voices are made when they come from the inside not what you see on the outside.
Very well-said. I could say the same about a lot of posts here, but this is a great point that hasn't been brought up yet.
I agree with everyone who said it is body-related.
If I wanted to reclaim any power I felt I'd lost from a patriarchal society, and I truly felt I was female, I would do it by being a bad ass woman, not by transitioning. And frankly, I wish I could be a cis woman, and not have transsexualism, because dysphoria blows and hormones and surgeries are so expensive lol. But this is just how it is, nothing's going to make it go away because I am strongly of the camp it's biological.
I also agree it's body-related.
However, if you are worried that transitioning will make you into a misogynistic jerk, I can safely say the answer is no. You will still be you. Hormones do not make people into jerks unless they already had that tendency. :)
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.
I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.
Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 03:26:10 AM
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.
I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.
That's great that stuff got socially better for you after you transitioned.
Though, for a lot of us, even if we are straight we end up looking or sounding gay. I am not sure if jumping from female to (perceived) gay male is a step up in all situations. So in general it would be probably be risky to transition with the assumption you will be perceived as straight, because it might never happen.
Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 03:26:10 AM
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.
I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.
I'm glad transitioning helped you, and I certainly don't doubt the inherent power involved in being a man in a patriarchy. I don't think it's naive to say that social or environmental factors have anything to do with transitioning on a personal level.
Coming to terms with power exchange while transitioning is something many trans people examine I think. I certainly never thought that social things aren't involved in my dysphoria, but environment certainly has nothing to do with being trans. If the whole world were gender neutral I'd still feel uncomfortable about my secondary sex characteristics. I'm kind of uncomfortable trying to second guess anyone's reasoning for being trans especially someone who is famous or a professional because many trans people are sort of taught to give a very broad generalized narrative that might not even fit themselves.
Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 03:26:10 AM
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.
I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.
I don't know why anyone would ever make such a radical change JUST for society. I'm having a hard time believing you are a trans man and not just a radical feminist trying to prove a point or something. Especially given that this is your only post on a newly made profile.
Didn't a butch woman try living socially as a man for awhile as as social experiment and end up having herself committed because of the psychological toll it took on her? For both trans and cis people, it's difficult pretending to be a gender one isn't. I can't understand why anyone would willingly do that to themselves for people who don't matter.
Quote from: Edge on June 01, 2014, 12:08:04 PM
Didn't a butch woman try living socially as a man for awhile as as social experiment and end up having herself committed because of the psychological toll it took on her? For both trans and cis people, it's difficult pretending to be a gender one isn't. I can't understand why anyone would willingly do that to themselves for people who don't matter.
Yeah I linked the info about it, but here's the video of it:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7kP_dd6LU
The woman wasn't thinking that she was trans, she was a radical feminist who was very critical about men and transphobic for a long time. She found out that it's not just about socialization and that the same things that made people see her as a butch woman made people think she was a gay man when she was doing the experiment. I haven't seen anything much else from her but I heard she's become more moderate in her writings about transgender people. Political transitioning hurt her very deeply.
Thanks to campanella for the research link list - very well-thought out and detailed post, and I appreciate that.
I want to clarify that in my case this is not the only, or even a driving factor in my trans identity. I have always had body dysphoria (since puberty, but with many moments prior to that), which I have suppressed for years and years. Many of the reasons I have been suppressing it have been social, and only in the past year have I been blessed to be surrounded with people who send the message "it's okay to be yourself." It is in this time that I have become a feminist (I always believed in equality but I didn't always understand inequality).
I feel like it's somewhat appropriate that after I suppressed myself for social reasons (lack of finances, lack of social and emotional support, benefits provided by living as female such as my partner's affections, etc) ... I ended up reawakening my inner self after changing my social surroundings. Being around transguys (for the first time in my life!) and feminists and other people who believe that an individual's identity is important has had me, for the first time in years, caring about my identity.
I'm 25 and still in college - sort of an arrested development thing, I guess. I needed those extra years to work because I couldn't afford to live. And because sometimes I didn't always want to.
For years, I felt that everything I felt about my identity was impossible, and so I decided to live for other people. My chosen career path is in social services, my body is something I make available to my partner, my dreams have always been to make other people's lives better, to help them be happy. I had forgotten about making myself happy. I had forgotten about any of that.
While I am questioning myself and my motivations at this time, I feel like I already know the answers. I feel like I am afraid to admit them to myself because I've been hiding so long. And because my partner, who knows everything (except that I am on this forum), asked me if I'm completely certain I am not just responding to social constructs.
One last time, for his benefit, I decided to consider that. But it doesn't seem to be the case.
I think I might throw that question back at him with regard to either staying or not staying in a relationship with me if I transition. >:-)
Also thank you to crunchypeanutbutter, who may only have one post because he does not wish to reveal his identity... honesty is important in discussions like this, and that is really what I was requesting.
I feel like everything is a factor in everything, and everything is complicated, and that's probably why I generally fear decision making and avoid it and do nothing whenever possible.
Quote from: ChrisRokk on June 01, 2014, 04:37:28 AM
That's great that stuff got socially better for you after you transitioned.
Though, for a lot of us, even if we are straight we end up looking or sounding gay. I am not sure if jumping from female to (perceived) gay male is a step up in all situations. So in general it would be probably be risky to transition with the assumption you will be perceived as straight, because it might never happen.
'Sounding gay' was definitely one of the concerns I had, because I know it's a gamble and there's no way to predict how your voice will ultimately sound. I did have to consciously alter some of my speech patterns, or at least I became hyperaware of them. I agree that it's not a huge step up on the social ladder to go to being perceived as a gay male. Race would be another factor influencing how far up you move.
Quote from: campenella on June 01, 2014, 11:00:50 AM
I'm glad transitioning helped you, and I certainly don't doubt the inherent power involved in being a man in a patriarchy. I don't think it's naive to say that social or environmental factors have anything to do with transitioning on a personal level.
Coming to terms with power exchange while transitioning is something many trans people examine I think. I certainly never thought that social things aren't involved in my dysphoria, but environment certainly has nothing to do with being trans. If the whole world were gender neutral I'd still feel uncomfortable about my secondary sex characteristics. I'm kind of uncomfortable trying to second guess anyone's reasoning for being trans especially someone who is famous or a professional because many trans people are sort of taught to give a very broad generalized narrative that might not even fit themselves.
It's certainly a unique experience. I think people would be far more empathetic if they had the chance to experience life on the other side of things when it comes to oppression in general.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on June 01, 2014, 11:35:36 AM
I don't know why anyone would ever make such a radical change JUST for society. I'm having a hard time believing you are a trans man and not just a radical feminist trying to prove a point or something. Especially given that this is your only post on a newly made profile.
This is an example of why I tend to lie about my reasons for transitioning. I primarily lurk on forums, but this topic prompted me to comment because I almost feel invisible. I'm stealth, so I don't really have anyone to discuss these kinds of things with. I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. I don't see why you think it's outrageous that someone would transition in order to lessen the anxiety that comes with being visibly 'different' and the treatment/harassment that comes with it, especially for people who live in conservative areas. In my case, my anxiety was becoming crippling, so I did what I felt I needed to do. I live in an area where everything (including surgery) is covered by insurance, so it wasn't as difficult a process as it is for some. I don't think a single post on a forum is really going to be used to fuel someone's political agenda.
Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
This is an example of why I tend to lie about my reasons for transitioning. I primarily lurk on forums, but this topic prompted me to comment because I almost feel invisible. I'm stealth, so I don't really have anyone to discuss these kinds of things with. I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. I don't see why you think it's outrageous that someone would transition in order to lessen the anxiety that comes with being visibly 'different' and the treatment/harassment that comes with it, especially for people who live in conservative areas. In my case, my anxiety was becoming crippling, so I did what I felt I needed to do. I live in an area where everything (including surgery) is covered by insurance, so it wasn't as difficult a process as it is for some. I don't think a single post on a forum is really going to be used to fuel someone's political agenda.
I think it's because you have transitioned under a rare circumstance and your body is your own choice but I don't think pushing the idea that transitioning is environmental or social for anyone but yourself is going to be taken well in any forum. You did what you needed to do, and it sounds like social dysphoria to me, but that's not my call. It's not my place to tell someone if they are trans or not, but I disagree that people would feel different if they had the chance to live in someone else's shoes. Many situations aren't comparable and I wouldn't wish many situations especially dysphoria or racism on other people.
I feel really uncomfortable with 'ladder of oppression/privilege' sorts of discussion because there are things many people cannot change and it's kind of borderline bootstraps. I'm glad your surgeries were covered.
Sure I would want have male privilige, and general privilige if I could, but it not why I transition and I think these priviligedes should be for anyone.
transitioning I somethimes got male priviliges but then I have a great lack of cisprivilige on the other hand which I personally,
(depends a bit on your situation) for me is worse than being female.
I can give some exempels: a female have problems traveling to male dominating countrys, but I both have troubles traveling to male dominating countrys AND anti-LGBT countrys.
a female also own less money, since I can't change my gender ID I would also have a great risk of owning less money. And a female can also be dismissed of getting a job, but a transperson got the biggest unemployment rate and theres no laws to protect transgender people who is discriminated because the law for "sex discrimination" do not include gender identity or expression.
--
Okay I may talk to much, but its my view. I don't know if the life have made some choices, probably it have I think its healthy to learn from your life, and when I transitioned I really wanted to keep remembering alot of the things I had learned in the past, it really usefull specially if you want to do activism or work with anti-discrimination stuff.
I have somethimes worried on being priviliged and forgetting these discrimination points and turning blind to the issues. some things have got more easy and I got more priviliged but theres also many points where I still get reminded of the binary gender roles for men and women just from another perspective, when I before was "bullied" for wearing boyish clothing, people now comment on how femenine I am ex.
you may recieave some previlige on transition, you may also lose some, but you dont atomatically turn into the "white priviliged woman hating guy" if you dont want to, you also have a choice on how you want to live your life and how you want to thread others.
Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
This is an example of why I tend to lie about my reasons for transitioning. I primarily lurk on forums, but this topic prompted me to comment because I almost feel invisible.
Coming to a transgender support forum and - with your
first post - talking about how you only transitioned so you could benefit from male privilege is like cutting your own legs off, then being upset when the people who lost their legs in accidents won't take you seriously. Pretending you have a medical condition so you can reap the benefits is nothing short of insulting to those of us who actually have to deal with it. Not only is it insulting, but it actively hurts us. We struggle every day for society to take us seriously so we can stop having to hear "it's all in your head" or "you're mentally ill," or even being killed. Stories like yours only make things worse for us.
Then you have the insurance issue. Do you have any idea what the consequences of that could be for those of us who are struggling to get our insurance companies to cover even a little bit of our medical bills? If insurance companies find out there are people out there like yourself who are pretending to be transgender so they can benefit from it, we could
all be denied coverage because there's no way to tell if someone is lying or not.
Quote from: campenella on June 01, 2014, 04:41:56 PM
I think it's because you have transitioned under a rare circumstance and your body is your own choice but I don't think pushing the idea that transitioning is environmental or social for anyone but yourself is going to be taken well in any forum. You did what you needed to do, and it sounds like social dysphoria to me, but that's not my call. It's not my place to tell someone if they are trans or not, but I disagree that people would feel different if they had the chance to live in someone else's shoes. Many situations aren't comparable and I wouldn't wish many situations especially dysphoria or racism on other people.
I feel really uncomfortable with 'ladder of oppression/privilege' sorts of discussion because there are things many people cannot change and it's kind of borderline bootstraps. I'm glad your surgeries were covered.
I said that I was an outlier. I'm posting about a different experience that a small minority of us have that fits in with what the OP was asking about. I'm not 'pushing' anything.
By being more empathetic, I meant that people would be less inclined to treat people poorly based on X trait if they experienced firsthand what that felt like. Think of it like an experiment where everyone is able to magically swap positions with someone else for a day. They would come back with a better understanding. Sorry for not being clear on that the first time. I didn't mean that it would have any effect on people's dysphoria.
Quote from: Declan. on June 01, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
Coming to a transgender support forum and - with your first post - talking about how you only transitioned so you could benefit from male privilege is like cutting your own legs off, then being upset when the people who lost their legs in accidents won't take you seriously. Pretending you have a medical condition so you can reap the benefits is nothing short of insulting to those of us who actually have to deal with it. Not only is it insulting, but it actively hurts us. We struggle every day for society to take us seriously so we can stop having to hear "it's all in your head" or "you're mentally ill," or even being killed. Stories like yours only make things worse for us.
Then you have the insurance issue. Do you have any idea what the consequences of that could be for those of us who are struggling to get our insurance companies to cover even a little bit of our medical bills? If insurance companies find out there are people out there like yourself who are pretending to be transgender so they can benefit from it, we could all be denied coverage because there's no way to tell if someone is lying or not.
I didn't pretend to be anything. I stuck with the typical narrative to explain it to most people in my life because it was easier, but I never lied to any healthcare professionals. At no point in time did I tell a psychologist or psychiatrist that I had physical dysphoria. I told them about my long standing social issues and the severe anxiety that resulted from it. For them and for me, that was enough of a reason to follow through with transitioning. Keep in mind that this was after years of unsuccessful therapy and discussing the topic extensively. I knew that I would be treated better being perceived as male and that it would improve my life (which it has). I'm not the reason why access to medical treatment for trans people is so poor in most places.
crunchypeanutbutter I'm not arguing with you on your story or transition. I agree and disagree with you on points you've expressed. Your first post said that it's naive to think environment and social stuff doesn't have to do with being transgender and then you went on later to say that it was from a personal perspective. This was after I said that we cannot assume anyone's status or stories nor should we question people in a public light. All I'm telling you is that those words resonated with people and that many people will disagree with you on many forums about that sort of sentiment. If you took offense to anything on that front I'm sorry. I don't really have a traditional story either.
I genuinely am happy for you to have found a path and that you had the resources to deal with things. You have no obligation to tell anyone about your path. This is a complex discussion so knowing how many people in this thread have replied to you and the op with respect and information I hope we can all continue doing the same. I see your point of view, even if I don't agree with how you've phrased some of your arguments. Many poc trans people aren't thinking about moving up, but being othered by two societies in diffeent ways. There isn't really a scale of more or less overall, but in what areas. I don't agree about making someone live my life for a day to see oppression because that won't help to understand anything: I live a normal life mostly and microagressions are harder to see if you aren't used to them. I just hope people can see more positive change and representation of trans people
QuoteJust wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.
Never. And I'm not a stereotypically manly man either. In my relationship I'm the "wife". I do the cooking and the cleaning, and when we have kids I'll be the one staying home with them, etc.. There really aren't any gender roles that I'm trying to subvert or escape through my transition. In my experience, being transgendered has absolutely nothing to do with the way the world treats me. The fact that the world sometimes
perceives me as a girl is an issue, though it takes a backseat to how I see myself in the mirror.
If the gender roles were completely reversed and women were treated the way men are treated, I would still transition. If I were literally the only person left on earth, stranded on a desert island, I would
still have a very solid understanding that my physical body does not match who I am inside. It's a diagnosable, medically verifiable condition, and transitioning should have nothing more to do with social roles than getting surgery to remove a tumor does.
It's already so incredibly difficult for those of us who have struggled with dysphoria our entire lives to get our families and others to understand that this is a real medical issue that kills people, to not believe that we're just doing it for the "perks." There can be thousands of us explaining the fact that this is a medical condition, and they will still point out the handful of people who openly admit to doing it for "male privilege." It's every bit as harmful to us as the "I chose to be a lesbian because of the patriarchy, but I would otherwise be straight" crowd is to the lesbian community.