This was question my mom asked me last night during an argument. Spent the rest of the night trying to answer it. Her points of contention was that I didn't act feminine, I didn't play with dolls as a kid (the only one of 4 to do so), and even that I don't do 'female' hobbies (sewing, cooking, ect.). She felt that wearing male clothing like I had planned means that I want to have the privileges of being female without giving up any male privileges. Same with practicing kendo and video games. In short, she said that I was not feminine in the least. I disagree of course but...
My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl? ??? ??? ???
There's plenty of women doing all your doing.
Also generally we're repressed plenty and we had to blend with the crowd, so what we've been doing has no bearing on anything, plenty of marines
have transitioned and she'd be very surprised how they look now.
Sewing has not been a prefferred female hobby in at least 30 years.
Don't defend yourself.
Its how you feel and that's that.
Next, explore this with a therapist so you can really define the next steps; hope your mother will support you.
Stereotyping is a dangerous thing.
I am not a stereotypically feminine girl. I don't like skirts and dresses. I'm a huge book nerd, and I program computers for fun. I drive a sports car, cause I like to feel the wind in my hair at 80mph. These are not feminine activities -- nor are they masculine. We are what we make of ourselves.
When I was a kid, I was mad that there wasn't a girl ninja turtle, or that Sandra Lee had been more ACTIVE and did something cool like racing Danny Zuko in Grease, instead of the lame "I'll change for my man" ending. They make it look like boys have more fun. I watched boy shows (girl shows too, but they're not usually as fun) and played video games. I was (still am) also a sports-hating asthmatic book nerd. And I knew, somehow, that I was a girl. A girl that didn't want to be a sassy princess or be saved by some guy and live happily ever after. I wanted to be me. As a girl. And that's precisely what I am. I don't question my femininity because I like things that other people classify masculine, and I'm not going to change who I am to be accepted as more of a woman. Girls can have fun too, and it doesn't HAVE to be clothes-shopping gossip fun, or dressing up just for the sake of dressing up fun. Although that CAN be fun.
In short, don't worry so much. Look inside yourself, and say...
"I am me."
And figure out what exactly that means, cause nobody else can do it for you.
Quote from: Angel on July 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
This was question my mom asked me last night during an argument. Spent the rest of the night trying to answer it. Her points of contention was that I didn't act feminine, I didn't play with dolls as a kid (the only one of 4 to do so), and even that I don't do 'female' hobbies (sewing, cooking, ect.). She felt that wearing male clothing like I had planned means that I want to have the privileges of being female without giving up any male privileges. Same with practicing kendo and video games. In short, she said that I was not feminine in the least. I disagree of course but...
My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl? ??? ??? ???
This is a particular transgender stereotype that needs to die quickly. The toy/doll and hobby thing is obnoxious. Its based on gender stereotypes that need to be put to rest.
Quote from: Tak on July 24, 2007, 10:13:52 AM
Stereotyping is a dangerous thing.
I totally agree. There are alot of females who act "male". It doesn't make them any less female..
If a tomboy refused to play with dolls, she probably wouldn't have her girlhood questioned. Except by uptight stereotypers, I guess. Plus you were probably directed toward the 'boy' things. I think most kids will play with anything available if given the opportunity.
I wonder if your mom thinks Danika Patrick is a female?
Just be yourself honey. If all transgendered females had to conform to some stereotype we'd all be prancing around in frilly little pink outfits and speaking falsetto with a lisp! And if that's you, that's OK also.
My GID counsellor told me not to try and be anyone else except the person I am and have always been. The only adjustments I need are physical, not mental. Although I love cooking I've never liked sewing or knitting so I won't be joining the local quilting club, thanks.
No, you be true to yourself and don't think you have to conform to your mom's idea of what a girl should be. You know who you are.
Best wishes, Louise
LOL. Your Mother would be in for a shock with natally born women too then.
She would get laughed out of a room full of lebians.
Women no longer fell forced to wedge themself into a category, or confine themselves to certain behaviours.
It sounds like your Mother is dealing with her own insecurities, and projecting it onto you.
It sounds like she feels resentful that she followed the 'coaching' of our generation, and is upset that you do not have to do the same. It probably made her miss out on a lot of life, and you make her realize that. That is her stuff, not your stuff. Just be a loving daughter, and give her the chance to come around. It may take her some time. Be patient.
It mat be related to your ethnic background or religious upbringing too. Certain deomgraphics feel very threatened by empowered women.
It could also be related to her inability to see this in you as a child. It makes her feel inadequate and makes her question herself. Her own womanhood. That is scary.
She is probably really off balance because off all of this. Just give her time. Time heals all things, and women are especially resilient. Once she realizes that it is not a phase, and not about you seeking attention, than she might "get it." It takes time.
Quote from: Angel on July 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl? ??? ??? ???
Yes, because, simply, what is 'female'. What is 'accepted' normal now is not what was in years past. That, in and of itself, should be enough proof that the concept of what is 'girl stuff' is pretty malleable.
This said, I am a tomboy, an happy with that. I have traits of the girly girly stereotype and the butch stereotype. What is 'girl'?
*shrug* Shove a girl into a boy frame and society for a good number of years and you do NOT get the norm. At least, I do not think so.
You might mention to her that YOU are the one who has to live with this.
Just a minute while I finish my patchwork quilt, take my cakes out of the oven, finish off my flower arrangement, run to fetch my hubbie's slippers, let my fuchsia pink nail varnish dry, rearrange the net curtains, ...
All I can say is, if these types of things define who is and who is not female, then my sister's got a very big secret she's (he's?) keeping from me! :P
MVER XXX
These are two seperate aspects that make up who someone is.
Gender Identity: The "brain" gender. Inborn and unchangeable.
Gender Expression: How you present and express yourself.
There are male, female, both, neither, mixtures of the two for both Gender Identity and Gender Expression. Also, the combination of Gender Identity and Gender Expression are interchangeable. Meaning that No matter what Gender Identity you posess, you can have any corresponding Gender Expression. For instance, I feel that I have a female Gender Identity, yet I have a more neutral Gender Expression. I like male activities, female activities, and any combination of the two. I would hate to have to limit my expressions to that of a set itinerary of activities just because of my Gender Identity.
Sarah
Thanks all, I think what is really throwing mom for a loop is that I say i'm a woman and changing my body to fit my mind, and yet I still want to be with a girl. Her words, 'why would you go trough all of this just to be gay?' >:( Oye, my family is the biggest group of smart dumb people I know. She could't get that gender identity and sexual orinentation are two differnt things
As for being consevative, my mother happens to be a OBGYN (irony anyone?) and became one in a time when female doctors wern't really accepted and even managed to have a family which was even more outside the norm. Had to tell my grandpa what she thought of dropping out of med school when she ave birth to my older brother. She thinks i'm just confused and had bad role-models for being a man (we both agreed dad wasn't the best, though I do respect him.) Now, she wants me to further pursue th question if this is just depression or something else with a psycologist, but yet she dosn't trust the psycologists I have seen.
IMO the only true differences beween men and women is the sexual organs and what you identify as. Everything that makes me a woman in my mind and my actvities could easily be done and enoyed by a man. So i'm a crass, sarcastic, and hard hitting woman, it turns out I went through basic with one of those training me. ;) I think her biggest fear is that I won't 'pass'. Epecially going into teachng. *shrugs*
Now if I can just figure out why I care so much about her opinion, especially when my parents keep showing their ignorence in my best effort to educate them. ??? How have you delt with people questioning your transistion or gender?
Your mom needs to let go and grow up.
There are two daughters in my house. One is now 11 the other is 8. The 11 year old has never once picked up a doll, put on a dress, pierced her ears, or did aything remotely girly. She would rather catch bugs, play nintendo DS or play on her computer and draw or play games. She likes pokemon and digimon and other types of anime'
The 8 year old pretty much owns Matel. She has every barbie and pink frilly thing ever made. She loves wearing panty hoses and dresses and is the girliest little thing you could ever see. She does play princess barbie games on her computer though. She loves all the little girly movies. She got her ears pierced...demanded it if I remember correctly at the age of 4.
Both are female. There is just as large range of females as there is a range of males. Not all males watch sports, drink beer, play golf, and shoot guns.
Not all females are girly. Your mom needs to open her eyes to reality and needs to stop living in her little social confort zone where everybody fits a certain stereotype.
All humans are differnt. Did you know that more women picked up hunting last year than men? That is a statistical fact. This is a new era/age. Women are not confined to the kitchen. They are not confined to being a legal pump for a husband and raising kids. Most women I see wear jeans and t-shirt type tops. Some are really pretty, some are not so pretty. Some get really girly looking some do not.
You can be a female and look and act however you want. Don't let your mom or anybody tell you different.
Posted on: July 24, 2007, 05:43:39 PM
Quote from: Rebis on July 24, 2007, 11:06:23 AM
If a tomboy refused to play with dolls, she probably wouldn't have her girlhood questioned. Except by uptight stereotypers, I guess. Plus you were probably directed toward the 'boy' things. I think most kids will play with anything available if given the opportunity.
I agree with that. A girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable. A boy cannot act like anything but a boy or he will be labeled gay and whisked away to doctors to find out what is wrong.
I'm sure there are some parents that a boyish girl would drive insane but that would be rare.
Quote from: Angel on July 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
My question is, do you believe it is possible to be female without being feminine? Or do you believe that one must act like a girl to be considered a girl?
In my view being feminine is your expression and behavior from your personality, temperament and socialization, and has little to do with being female. Look at the gamut of women and you'll see many women be and act partly if not almost wholly masculine and the reverse with men. The problem is that many people equate both in an idealized version which isn't reality. Many women have to alter themselves to be feminine, why else are there so much pressure on women to be feminine? And all these makeover or similar shows changing women into something they're naturally not.
Ask your Mom what feminine is to her? And then ask if all girls/women do that? And if they don't, are those that don't not feminine? It's the question I always ask because there isn't any one definition of femininity, especially when you look at the range of women in this country and in other countries and cultures.
--Susan--
Quote from: LoriI agree with that. I girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable
Quite true but it's very different for us, MTF transsexuals. Unless you're very passable, you can't get away with acting like a tomboy & be perceived as female.
QuoteCan you be female if you don't act like it?
Yes you can, but society can be a challenge. Can you live with that? if the answer is yes, super!
Quote from: Jeannette on July 24, 2007, 06:33:35 PM
Quote from: LoriI agree with that. A girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable
Quite true but it's very different for us, MTF transsexuals. Unless you're very passable, you can't get away with acting like a tomboy & be perceived as female.
Interesting observation I had not considered. I do agree with that though.
You can act however you feel. We are trying to get away from the act and have our true feelings here. You look at GG's and if you see 10 walking by, you will see 10 different ways to act like a woman. If you see 10 different guys walk by, you will see 10 different ways of being a guy. We are not the same. This is your feelings and the way you want to express them. You cannot hide from them or dismiss them from your life, it is like they were innate, and maybe they are?
Sheila
Know what you call a girl whos not girly yet not a tomboy.... Athletic...
Im in a punkrock band and I play the drums...... yeah really girly...
I can also hang with the guys and hold my own.... again really girly...
Does this mean Im not accepted as a woman???
Simple answer NO!
Posted on: July 24, 2007, 11:43:15 PM
oh, as an afterthought, I used to be into martial arts and still remember allot of the stuff... and I used to like videogames... though after starting HRT I lost allmost all intrest in them *Shrugs* go figure.
Why are you having this argument with your mom anyway? What did you do to make her think she has a say in your sex life or how you express your gender? I think it's time you politely tell your mom that you are not welcoming any influence from her about sexual matters and you would feel more comfortable not debating your sex and gender decisions because these subjects are part of your adult life. This is all so one way, you wouldn't dream of suggesting to her that she studies the Kama Sutra to polish up on a few moves. I would guard against falling into the parent/child dynamic here, this topic needs to be discussed as one adult talking to another adult. Answer her questions yes, she needs to understand but if you welcome her opinions on how to manage your sex and gender issues she will always see you as a child. Part of growing up means making your own decisions and living with the consequences.
This is an interesting topic! Times have been changing for years.
Today there are women Fighter pilots dropping bombs, women hockey players, women race car drivers and so on.
The gym I go to has a few women body builders that are pretty large. A couple of times a year I go on a fishing trip with some of my friends, There in boats ,with guys or a few of them together are women fishing ,just like the rest of us and having a great time.
I like getting pampered at a day spa,getting facials,body treatments, pedicures and manicures. I like to cook,I like to shop, I like to watch some sports, hockey, baseball, tennis and YES, figure skating.
So what is acting masculin or feminine? Other than sitting with your legs crossed and talking with a limp wrist or walking sort of bull legged and sitting with the legs spread.
Older people don't seem to accept that the borders between the sexes are disappearing. This day and age even men get their hair dyed, have waxing done and are being MR. moms.
I think, because of the changes we're going through, we seem to be more self conscious about this subject. Thinking " Am I acting or behaving the right way to pass in society? Society has its image of the way boys and girls should act and behave, but the truth is, it's really a load of bull! The days where all the girls sit together in one room and the boys in the other, will be and are seeing their final days!
I've seen many people after they have had GRS in the U.K and they act and sound just like men, have no feminine traits, mannerisms or persona.....it's very weird and hard to understand.....This is not anything to do with hobbies or pastimes but their overall projection is that they are a man.
Gina,
I have met a couple people like that and they puzzle me, there is a definite way that women comunicate, even butch women, that is entirely different from the male species.
Again, the Buddha teaches me not to judge, but those types sure test my Buddhist teachings.
The Buddha taught that men lead unpure lives were punished by being given female bodies in their next life. That is no longer the belief. I don't know how many transwoman the Buddha met, proabably quite a few.
=================================
I have to concur with Gina vis vis her experience with other transwomen, I sm wondering though...most transwomen I have met are the ones who go to support groups on a regualr basis, quite frankly many of those impress me as CDs even though they ID as trans. If you guys attended so many women only recovery meetings as I did, as well as mixed groups, you would see how differently the sexes communicate although that was obvious to me all my life but only truly validated recently. I have an even harder time understanding men than GGs do but I guess that is natural as they have spent their whole lives relating to men as women.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 25, 2007, 10:57:22 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 25, 2007, 10:45:42 PM
The Buddha taught that men lead unpure lives were punished by being given female bodies in their next life. That is no longer the belief. I don't know how many transwoman the Buddha met, proabably quite a few.
i appear to have transgressed in a past life and have been given the Buddha's body as punishment.
Which form?
Posted on: July 25, 2007, 11:00:52 PM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 25, 2007, 07:52:55 AM
Quote from: LynnER on July 24, 2007, 11:47:31 PM
Know what you call a girl whos not girly yet not a tomboy.... Athletic...
Im in a punkrock band and I play the drums...... yeah really girly...
i played guitar in a punk band.
chick bands are hot!
I think the main thing that held me back from being a success in music was dealing with male musicians. Working with women musicians is so much easier, it is so damn hard to find good female bassists and drummers though.
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 25, 2007, 11:03:28 PM
I think the main thing that held me back from being a success in music was dealing with male musicians. Working with women musicians is so much easier, it is so damn hard to find good female bassists and drummers though.
I experienced some of that as well......especially towards the end. We had an album and deal and the guys were gradually cutting me out.
I'm one that subscribes to gender being much more cultural than innate, even if someone who is female has some different qualities than their male counterparts.
So, in one statement: yes, you can be female and not be 'feminine.'
What is feminine? Go from cultures around the world, and many will give you different answers through their culture and tradition.
Personally, when I first came out, I plunged in deep. As I got older, I peeled away the layers of facade and have begun to re-emerge as a normal chick again. Not barbie perfect, not cosmo material by any means. But deep down, who really is? I like being girly, feeling pretty, and all that jazz.
But its just skin deep.
xx
lxxy
I haven't read any of the replies yet (though I will) because I already knew my answer. YES YOU CAN!! I know PLENTY of true-to-life females who don't act feminine at all. Some are hetero; Some are bi; Some are lesbian. As well, I know a few males who are JUST AS feminine as the girliest of girls. Femininity and masculinity are both mental states. Mental states do NOT have to "coincide" with physical states. As a human, you have the right AND the means to be whoever you want to be emotionally, physically, and mentally. Simply put, be what is most comfortable for you and you will find the most comfort.
Interesting topic/thread. I really wish the stereotyping didn't exist personally, especially with parents doing it. I could write ALOT about what I fear...
I bet we could all write a lot about what we fear. I know I could write a book.
Oddly enough, putting society as a whole aside, my worst fear is hay. o-O; Yeah, society, then hay.
The key is dealing with it in a way that isn't crippling. I have ridiculous panic attacks once a week or so, and smaller anxiety attacks here and there in between. Used to be every day.
Y'know what's helped me? Not prescription drugs, that's for sure! They made it worse! >-<;
My mom said something like this. I just pointed out to her that both *her* and my daughter will not act stereotypically female at time either. That settled that one pretty quickly. She used to brag how she wasn't afraid to do things that some boys did. >:D
Quote from: Jeannette on July 24, 2007, 06:33:35 PM
Quote from: LoriI agree with that. I girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable
Quite true but it's very different for us, MTF transsexuals. Unless you're very passable, you can't get away with acting like a tomboy & be perceived as female.
Um, since I can get away with acting like a tomboy and still be perceived as female, does that qualify me as "very passable"? ;D
Time for Nero to put his line in.
Disclaimer: This is Nero's view and his alone.
Hobbies and interests do not matter. I was a nerdy fat kid who hated sports, would duck rather than catch a ball, read the encyclopedia britannica for fun, loved writing and art etc. Not exactly the picture of masculinity. ::)
There are girls who hate dolls, hate cooking and sewing, etc.
Maybe these things denote maculine or feminine, not male or female.
Of course you can be a tomboy, or simply a woman whose interests are more stereotypically masculine.
That being said however, it is my firm belief that transsexuals who were born with the mind of their target gender display obvious behavioural signs from a young age. This doesn't escape the adult figures in the child's life. At least in early childhood before all the pressure to conform set in, this should have been noticeable.
The parents of a TS know their child is different and doesn't behave properly for their birth sex.
How could something as fundamental as a child not behaving in accord with their birth gender escape a parent's notice?
Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 04:01:34 PM
The parents of a TS know their child is different and doesn't behave properly for their birth sex.
How could something as fundamental as a child not behaving in accord with their birth gender escape a parent's notice?
Simple, there is an overlap of behaviors for genders. Many people (regardless of being TS or not) actually do fall into this overlap and these behaviors are generally perceived as the sex you appear to be. For females that fall in this overlap, they will be usually be seen as tomboys (or possibly normal females since they have a broader range of acceptable behaviors) and for males, they will usually be seen as quiet and reserved. Occasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different". In this case, females are always seen as tomboys and males are always seen as sissys.
I'll use myself as an example here. I clearly fall into this overlap. Back when I was seen as male, I pretty much acted as who I really am, but all my behaviors were perceived as male 100% of the time. I had some feminine mannerisms, but few people cared (I did get picked on occasionally growing up though) by a few kids that "just didn't like me" for some reason. Now that I am living as female, I behave in almost exactly the same way, yet now I am perceived as female 100% of the time. I still do all the hobbies I did before transition, with the addition of knitting. I even liked sewing and cooking before, which wasn't questioned. I still work on my car (perhaps even to a greater degree) now than I did before.
How can my behaviors be seen as both genders 100% of the time (depending on my appearance) without changing hardly anything unless there is an overlap. That's certainly my belief how it can be. My likes and behaviors do fit somewhat better in a female context than as a male one though.
Back to the original question "Can you be female if you don't act like it?"
You should ask that question to two of my sister-in-laws, genetic girls. I think their answer would be, Yes.
Playing with dolls, cooking, sewing, etc., have little to do with being a girl. Those are just things assigned by society.
Sarah L.
Quote from: regina on August 07, 2007, 06:09:14 PM
I did play with other boys but never did super hero stuff or pretend war and those kind of games...
I used to play a lot with my younger brother. We *did* do some super hero stuff, but I usually played the role of batgirl. :icon_redface: I did quite a bit of gender variant stuff without realizing it was something to be ashamed of at the time. Like playing the batgirl or the number of cool "trendy girl toys" I liked and bought. I really wasn't teased for any of my gender variant behaviors, nor had them pointed out to me either. It was just considered acceptable to be how I was. ???
Quote from: regina on August 07, 2007, 06:09:14 PM
A lot of parents are very dense about their kids, especially if those children are outside the parameters they knew when they grew up. That, and they're scared sh*tless their child is going to end up marginalized. While teaching elementary school, I used to have parent-teacher conferences with parents who had literally no idea about what was going on with their children or who they were as people. So sad.
So true. That probably explains why I was allowed to be how I was.
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 04:45:49 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 04:01:34 PM
The parents of a TS know their child is different and doesn't behave properly for their birth sex.
How could something as fundamental as a child not behaving in accord with their birth gender escape a parent's notice?
Simple, there is an overlap of behaviors for genders. Many people (regardless of being TS or not) actually do fall into this overlap and these behaviors are generally perceived as the sex you appear to be. For females that fall in this overlap, they will be usually be seen as tomboys (or possibly normal females since they have a broader range of acceptable behaviors) and for males, they will usually be seen as quiet and reserved. Occasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different". In this case, females are always seen as tomboys and males are always seen as sissys.
I'll use myself as an example here. I clearly fall into this overlap. Back when I was seen as male, I pretty much acted as who I really am, but all my behaviors were perceived as male 100% of the time. I had some feminine mannerisms, but few people cared (I did get picked on occasionally growing up though) by a few kids that "just didn't like me" for some reason. Now that I am living as female, I behave in almost exactly the same way, yet now I am perceived as female 100% of the time. I still do all the hobbies I did before transition, with the addition of knitting. I even liked sewing and cooking before, which wasn't questioned. I still work on my car (perhaps even to a greater degree) now than I did before.
How can my behaviors be seen as both genders 100% of the time (depending on my appearance) without changing hardly anything unless there is an overlap. That's certainly my belief how it can be. My likes and behaviors do fit somewhat better in a female context than as a male one though.
Nero reeeeally trying not to ruffle feathers here.Well, apparently my behaviour went beyond the famous 'tomboy safety net' even though I was not the typical sports playing, dirty, muddy tomboy. If my gender variant behaviour as a genetic girl was noted even with the acceptable 'tomboy safety net', then a TS genetic boy's gender variant behaviour should have been much more obvious than mine as there is no 'sissy safety net'. Regardless of the TS genetic male's hobbies or interests.
Because I was as you say - a child who didn't show typical boy or girl interests. I played with both stereotypical boy and girl toys. Played boy and girl games. Played pirates, and soldiers, war, etc. Played with stuffed animals.
And yet I was still seen as abnormal for a little girl. Too masculine. Not feminine enough.
I realize that as a TS child gets older, the need to conform is strong, but gender variant behaviour should have been noticeable at least in the early years.
Posted on: August 07, 2007, 07:40:22 PM
Another thing - my parents didn't even know what a transsexual was, so they didn't think 'oh this is really a boy', but they knew I wanted to be and that I acted like it.
Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 06:45:18 PMWell, apparently my behaviour went beyond the famous 'tomboy safety net' even though I was not the typical sports playing, dirty, muddy tomboy. If my gender variant behaviour as a genetic girl was noted even with the acceptable 'tomboy safety net', then a TS genetic boy's gender variant behaviour should have been much more obvious than mine as there is no 'sissy safety net'. Regardless of the TS genetic male's hobbies or interests.
Because I was as you say - a child who didn't show typical boy or girl interests. I played with both stereotypical boy and girl toys. Played boy and girl games. Played pirates, and soldiers, war, etc. Played with stuffed animals.
And yet I was still seen as abnormal for a little girl. Too masculine. Not feminine enough.
I realize that as a TS child gets older, the need to conform is strong, but gender variant behaviour should have been noticeable at least in the early years.
As I said:
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 04:45:49 PM
Occasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different".
I *did* definitely have some obvious gender variant behaviors (as I noted in my previous post), but for some reason nobody seemed to care and just accepted it as me just having some quirks. My parents never attempted to raise me to some standard they thought a boy should be, they just accepted their children as they saw them at face value. When the parents don't have gender specific expectations, you can do almost anything and they still won't notice.
Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 06:45:18 PMAnother thing - my parents didn't even know what a transsexual was, so they didn't think 'oh this is really a boy', but they knew I wanted to be and that I acted like it.
I certainly brought up many of these things, but they seemed to just shrug those things off and claimed I acted very male growing up. However, what they did is turn a blind eye to any feminine things I did and just saw the more masculine activities I did. Plus I wasn't usually in their presence when I did any feminine things.
My brother actually liked participating in many of the feminine activities as well. Here's some more things I experienced as a child:
My sister loved dressing me and my brother up as girls. He didn't seem to care, but I loved it. She'd dress us up and put makeup on us.
My sister loved doing role playing things like pretending to be a school teacher and having me and my brother in class. I had fun doing the pretending stuff (which tends to be a girl thing), but my brother would usually get bored and wander off.
I loved playing with toys in the bathtub and making up these really long stories with characters that were parts of families. This also tends to be a more female activity.
I liked drawing, artwork projects, and even doing some crocheting as a kid.
Cooking (and especially baking) was another favorite activity of mine.
There's many more, but I gotta go now. As you can tell, it should have been obvious to my parents, but probably due to me not being around them much (because they both worked), they rarely saw me doing any of these things.
Of course they did find my stash of female clothes and made a big deal out of that. I definitely brought that up when I came out to them.
:eusa_think: Now that I think about it, I *do* remember my Dad making some comment when I came out to them about them worrying about "something like this happening" while I was growing up. However, in recent conversations, my mom refused to admit to any of this stuff. That could just be a result of the denial she has been in since I came out to her though.
Maybe you're right after all. Oh well.
I had this argument with my parents before they kicked me out, my lack of femininity as a child was used by them to say i wasnt a girl. Dispite the fact they punished me for femininity and encouraged my masculine interests.
to be honest, im a tomboy, i still wear mens baggy jeans, because thier comfy and look cool with a nice tanktop and chunky belt. ok, im on the skaterish side of fashion, so what? i play a combat sport? meh, so do a lot of girls. Femininity doesnt = female, female is what a woman is. women define themselves.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 07, 2007, 07:28:10 PM
I had this argument with my parents before they kicked me out, my lack of femininity as a child was used by them to say i wasnt a girl. Dispite the fact they punished me for femininity and encouraged my masculine interests.
to be honest, im a tomboy, i still wear mens baggy jeans, because thier comfy and look cool with a nice tanktop and chunky belt. ok, im on the skaterish side of fashion, so what? i play a combat sport? meh, so do a lot of girls. Femininity doesnt = female, female is what a woman is. women define themselves.
R :police:
Your situation was a little different, as your parents apparently were terrified this would happen, and did all they could to make you a normal boy. That's different.
What puzzles me is that I've consistently heard how bad 'budding mtfs' have it growing up and that they go through so much more than ftms who have it easy because of the 'tomboy safety net', so I always assumed and expected that mtfs were punished daily by their parents and school officials for gender variance. I imagined a scenario with a poor sweet mtf girl cowering and weeping in a corner everyday. I imagined all kinds of scenarios that would be pure hell and way worse than my childhood, so I really expected mtfs to have these horror stories of childhood as a budding mtf.
While I've heard a few like what I'd imagined (Amy comes to mind), most the stories here don't match what I had been told.
Eh.
Growing up is going to be a different experience for everybody. My sister has been saying for years that I'm different, but my parents never picked up on it. She said, after I got older, that she figured it must've been because my mother babied me. She didn't, my sister just saw what she wanted to. After I came out to her, she said it all suddenly made sense -- and doesn't doubt in the slightest, unlike my parents who are... just seeing what they want to. My frugality (fix-it myself attitude) they consider a masculine trait. I practice programming in my spare time. I love to drive my car just for the sake of driving it, and I like small, sporty vehicles. I read a lot. I love horror movies. My parents consider all of these masculine things, but it's only because they're looking for them to be masculine. My sister does most of the same things and it's fine, normal girl behavior. When I write poetry, they think I'm trying to be girly -- but I consider it a normal, androgynous thing. I hate sports too, but somehow that's normal boy behavior as well.
People will see what they want to see. They (for the most part) ignore or disregard facts to support their own "truth" to make them sleep better at night... or whatever. That's why congress sucks, but I don't want to talk politics. I hate politics.
Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 08:17:55 PM
What puzzles me is that I've consistently heard how bad 'budding mtfs' have it growing up and that they go through so much more than ftms who have it easy because of the 'tomboy safety net', so I always assumed and expected that mtfs were punished daily by their parents and school officials for gender variance. I imagined a scenario with a poor sweet mtf girl cowering and weeping in a corner everyday. I imagined all kinds of scenarios that would be pure hell and way worse than my childhood, so I really expected mtfs to have these horror stories of childhood as a budding mtf.
This type of thing was much more prominent for people who have lived longer. Because I tend to be relatively young, people of my generation tend to be more forgiving about how a person should act. Also, the type of parents and their outlook on raising children will affect the child's experience. My dad is actually somewhat feminine in his demeanor, so perhaps this may have affected things. He wasn't really into enforcing his kids to act "macho". Had I had one of those dads, then yes, life most likely would have been pure hell.
As it was, I *did* get punished from time to time (but it wasn't a frequent occurence), but not specifically to "make me into a man", but more because some of my feminine behaviors tended to piss off my dad and viewed from the context of me being a boy, it tended to be more irritating. Oh and the fact that I cried so easily as a child tended to get to them as well. They would tell me how my Dad was raised where men are taught not to cry and often he would unintentionally propagate these values down to us because of his own bias.
Well I might not have been in the corner in tears, or even all that sweet, but I had lots of fear. Mostly due to my father, who once told me that he could have me in an orphanage without having to tell mom anything, when I was 6. Real father figure. :-\ After being shoved through a wall (literally), and having a a few close calls when he found my clothes, I buried this feeling deep for 10 years. Didn't help that I had a lot of fire in me at the time. Now they both claim they never saw any female traits, no wonder. :(
But I imagine it can't be all that much better to be FTM growing up even with this 'tom-boy net'. I remember high school vividly, and tom-boys got a lot of grief for being themselves.
Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 04:45:49 PMOccasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different".
There may actually be some truth to that. In general (yeah, I hear the groaning, everybody here hates generalizations), boys are more assertive than girls, so maybe a girl in this situation would just do what's expected of her.
My apologies to all posters in this thread. I didn't mean to make light of anyone's situation. I just had it in my head that there was no way an mtf girl wouldn't be extremely obvious to everyone.
its possible to hide, i built up a male act/persona to hide my true self for fear of punishment... it worked sadly >< but my parents should have bloody known when they bought me 'action man' army dolls that i played weddings with my sisters barbies and them :P
R :police:
There was a kid my age in the neighborhood when I was like 5 or 6 who dressed up in his mother's clothes, his sister helped dress him up, everybody made fun of him, I remember having mixed emotions wishing I had the nerve to do that but knowing if I did I would get my ass creamed, which I got anyway for other things, until I hit parochial school, I was pretty much myself, a girl, I remember being really content until I went to Catholic school and had to wear shirts and ties while the girls got to wear those cute uniforms and beanies. As soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.
My life was complete hell until I started dating. I was very pretty and gentle so I had lots of girlfriends (finally!) so I lived vicariously through them and later also started dating transwomen and living vicariously through them. (I lived in Baltimore where they were doing SRS at Johns Hopkins) to be continued...
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 08:34:16 PMAs soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.
That sounds more like what I'm driving at. I experienced same. No shrink anywhere could figure out what was wrong with me and some were convinced I had to have endured severe long term physical and sexual abuse. They kept fishing and fishing, thinking I was scared to talk or maybe I had repressed it. I kept telling them they were way off base. And I was pretty pissed and adamant about it, which convinced them all the more I was hiding something. ::)
I'm sorry, but if people keep making horrible insinuations and accusations against your folks, you're going to be insulted and pissed. They were just convinced there had to be something drastic and unspeakable in my past to explain my behaviour. They came up with all these gross, outlandish scenarios that could've resulted in the child seated before them.
That was my point - that even though nobody guessed the child was TS, they knew something was horribly wrong and out of place. I don't want to make light of anyone's situation, but I still can't comprehend how a TS child could possibly be seen as a normal member of their birth sex. Especially those who (unlike Rachael and others) were not repressed and stifled by force and/or deliberacy on the part of the parents.
I have no idea what the school therapists are like now, but I know when I was young and in school they were pretty bad.
Sarah L.
I actually had some great shrinks at Johns Hopkins of all places! But this was in the late 50s early 60s, perhaps had I been there in the 70s they would have figured it out! :)
(Note, Johns Hopkins is the first ---I believe--- mainstream hospital to perform SRS on a significant basis, at least in the US)
Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 01:47:03 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 08:34:16 PMAs soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.
That sounds more like what I'm driving at. I experienced same. No shrink anywhere could figure out what was wrong with me and some were convinced I had to have endured severe long term physical and sexual abuse. They kept fishing and fishing, thinking I was scared to talk or maybe I had repressed it. I kept telling them they were way off base. And I was pretty pissed and adamant about it, which convinced them all the more I was hiding something. ::)
I'm sorry, but if people keep making horrible insinuations and accusations against your folks, you're going to be insulted and pissed. They were just convinced there had to be something drastic and unspeakable in my past to explain my behaviour. They came up with all these gross, outlandish scenarios that could've resulted in the child seated before them.
That was my point - that even though nobody guessed the child was TS, they knew something was horribly wrong and out of place. I don't want to make light of anyone's situation, but I still can't comprehend how a TS child could possibly be seen as a normal member of their birth sex. Especially those who (unlike Rachael and others) were not repressed and stifled by force and/or deliberacy on the part of the parents.
Ah, ok. I too saw so many shrinks when I was young due to having problems. I could never do well in school or socially for that matter. Eventually they came up with ADD for the diagnosis (which I did and still have), but I think they kind of stopped searching for answers at that point. Meds kind of helped, but never totally. I was probably about 11-12 when I knew for certain I was mentally a girl. I still have one of the psychologist reports from when I was 9 which described many of the feminine traits I exhibited. If I read it from general context, it doesn't exactly scream "girl", yet it doesn't totally fit with ADD either. However, when I read it in the context of knowing what exactly who I am, everything makes perfect sense on there. In fact, I gave a copy of the report to my doctor recently because it certainly helps solidify the evidence that the GID has been lifelong.
Also, I had to have a lot of orthodontic work done because my new teeth took up more room than my head was able to accommodate. As a side note, I remember when I would go to the orthodontist, I would often have to wait outside the office in the morning because I got there early and I would look at the signs of the other medical professionals in the same plaza. One that really stood out to me was somebody who did electrolysis. I didn't know what it was at the time, but that just sounded very painful and was scary to me. Little did I know how painful it actually IS and that I would be having some done when I got older. :o I've had all sorts of stuff done growing up and was constantly seeing doctors/shrinks/whatever--certainly more than any of my other siblings. :'( Maybe they really do care more about me than I give them credit for.
Quote from: Melissa on August 09, 2007, 03:30:13 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 01:47:03 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 08:34:16 PMAs soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.
That sounds more like what I'm driving at. I experienced same. No shrink anywhere could figure out what was wrong with me and some were convinced I had to have endured severe long term physical and sexual abuse. They kept fishing and fishing, thinking I was scared to talk or maybe I had repressed it. I kept telling them they were way off base. And I was pretty pissed and adamant about it, which convinced them all the more I was hiding something. ::)
I'm sorry, but if people keep making horrible insinuations and accusations against your folks, you're going to be insulted and pissed. They were just convinced there had to be something drastic and unspeakable in my past to explain my behaviour. They came up with all these gross, outlandish scenarios that could've resulted in the child seated before them.
That was my point - that even though nobody guessed the child was TS, they knew something was horribly wrong and out of place. I don't want to make light of anyone's situation, but I still can't comprehend how a TS child could possibly be seen as a normal member of their birth sex. Especially those who (unlike Rachael and others) were not repressed and stifled by force and/or deliberacy on the part of the parents.
Ah, ok. I too saw so many shrinks when I was young due to having problems. I could never do well in school or socially for that matter. Eventually they came up with ADD for the diagnosis (which I did and still have), but I think they kind of stopped searching for answers at that point. Meds kind of helped, but never totally. I was probably about 11-12 when I knew for certain I was mentally a girl. I still have one of the psychologist reports from when I was 9 which described many of the feminine traits I exhibited. If I read it from general context, it doesn't exactly scream "girl", yet it doesn't totally fit with ADD either. However, when I read it in the context of knowing what exactly who I am, everything makes perfect sense on there. In fact, I gave a copy of the report to my doctor recently because it certainly helps solidify the evidence that the GID has been lifelong.
Also, I had to have a lot of orthodontic work done because my new teeth took up more room than my head was able to accommodate. As a side note, I remember when I would go to the orthodontist, I would often have to wait outside the office in the morning because I got there early and I would look at the signs of the other medical professionals in the same plaza. One that really stood out to me was somebody who did electrolysis. I didn't know what it was at the time, but that just sounded very painful and was scary to me. Little did I know how painful it actually IS and that I would be having some done when I got older. :o I've had all sorts of stuff done growing up and was constantly seeing doctors/shrinks/whatever--certainly more than any of my other siblings. :'( Maybe they really do care more about me than I give them credit for.
Yeah, they probably do. Sounds as if they were trying to find out what was wrong. If they hadn't cared, they wouldn't have even noticed everything wasn't hunky dory with you. They probably still care, maybe it's their religion and how they interpret it and what they've been told that's causing them to reject you. Also sounds like they don't understand the condition, if they think you chose this.
Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 04:47:29 PM
They probably still care, maybe it's their religion and how they interpret it and what they've been told that's causing them to reject you. Also sounds like they don't understand the condition, if they think you chose this.
Bingo! The man is very sharp. :)
I learned pretty early on that my behavior had to be masculine or else. I have clear memories of when I was 4 or 5, being yelled at by my mom for the way I would sit, she would tell me that I wasn't a girl, so I shouldn't sit like one. She doesn't remember this actually happening though, weirdly. There's a lot about my childhood that I found traumatic, that my mom just can't place happening, or so she says. But I remember every time where I did something that was stepping outside the lines of where I was supposed to be with regards to Gender, and getting told I wasn't a girl. Eventually my mom came to accept that I crossdressed at home, which was fine with her so long as I wasn't a girl. And that lasted from about 4th grade to 7th grade, when I asked her if she would buy me my own clothes, and she informed me that I wasn't a girl, so she shouldn't be wasting money on clothes for me that were for girls. And that shut me up through a lot of high school, though it was something I was always thinking about. Then eventually in college, I finally started getting the courage to live my life how I knew I wanted to live, and started to assert that I was female.
Of course I got the whole "but you never acted female growing up" schtick too. But I knew it was a lie. And I knew how much of my habits were born out of repression, rather than expression. So what if I played the part well, y'know? I was still acting.
There's so much to sift through when you transition about what is you, and what is society's pressure on you it can be really confusing at times, and I haven't found parents to be the most objective or useful sources for that debate.
I'm still trying to articulate what female means to me. I don't think it's as easy as the things you do, or how you look. It's something deeper than that, that does feel inate. But I don't really know how to explain it's differences to maleness without going to surface things. I think most GGs would have the same problem though, if you asked them to define femaleness, at least if they were really thinking about it.
ugh, i remember that....
'DONT CROSS YOUR LEGS, YOUR NOT A WOMAN! ONLY WOMEN CAN!'
and the HUGE row when i had my ears pierced: 'only girls can have piercings, you look gay'
R :police:
Quote from: Tak on August 08, 2007, 09:15:54 AM
Eh.
Growing up is going to be a different experience for everybody. My sister has been saying for years that I'm different, but my parents never picked up on it. She said, after I got older, that she figured it must've been because my mother babied me. She didn't, my sister just saw what she wanted to. After I came out to her, she said it all suddenly made sense -- and doesn't doubt in the slightest, unlike my parents who are... just seeing what they want to. My frugality (fix-it myself attitude) they consider a masculine trait. I practice programming in my spare time. I love to drive my car just for the sake of driving it, and I like small, sporty vehicles. I read a lot. I love horror movies. My parents consider all of these masculine things, but it's only because they're looking for them to be masculine. My sister does most of the same things and it's fine, normal girl behavior. When I write poetry, they think I'm trying to be girly -- but I consider it a normal, androgynous thing. I hate sports too, but somehow that's normal boy behavior as well.
People will see what they want to see. They (for the most part) ignore or disregard facts to support their own "truth" to make them sleep better at night... or whatever. That's why congress sucks, but I don't want to talk politics. I hate politics.
I wish I had a sister. My brother is smart, but he's the type who instead of thinking of whats wrong or messed up in the whole view of the world (like I do ALOT), he chooses to go the, "Who cares? Lets jump in the forerunner and hit on girls nonstop like they're shuffled cards with the other boys" thing. I'm like, one of his best friends, but deep connection doesn't seem possible with him to that extent. If I had a sister, especially an older one, I'd have someone to talk with in person.
As for the ENTIRE structure of our government. I'd enjoy seeing it burn and fall. Just for kicks, actually. I'm more scared at what our entire race has problems with. Dumb humans.... :(
As for gender norms. I grew up pretty genderless. I'm competitive, so I'd catch up with the others and try to impress, but other than that, I loved cartoons and LEGO. I ran around naked all the time, and wreaked havoc. I was found in my neighbors house one hiding in their shower. I think I'm like, amazing at sneaking around. But yeah. Hyperactive, obsessed cartoon/nintendo fanthing who was on Ritalin once for it, but that only made me a skinny mofro. The only thing I can imagine being extremely feminine is listening on my moms conversations with random people, and joining in to throw my 2 cents in. They would kind of just ignore me and continue like I didn't join the "adult time."
Both my sisters are more butch than I am (not that I am butch, mind you) One of my sisters, for instance, has only had one manicure in her entire life, the day she was married.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 13, 2007, 11:16:34 AM
Both my sisters are more butch than I am (not that I am butch, mind you) One of my sisters, for instance, has only had one manicure in her entire life, the day she was married.
I have yet to ever get a manicure or pedicure done and my nails are rarely painted. However, I don't consider myself "butch" at all (although I do work on my car from time to time), but I act feminine (because that's just what my personality is) and I love dressing in feminine clothes and wearing makeup and doing my hair (ok, I don't love *doing* it, but I love how it looks :D).
I like painting my nails but other than that I wouldn't pay for any 'cures.