I was sitting outside my therapist office waiting for my appointment. I was feeling really good . People were passing me by not looking at me, nothing was happening , but just enjoying the day when this 5 year old walking hand in hand with her mother walked by and kept staring at me as her and her mother kept walking. I smiled but she didn't smile back. they got about ten yards away and the child turned to her mother and said something and they just kept walking. I thought I've been doing pretty good not being noticed. This is the first time this has happened and it freaked me out. It's weird , I got out of my appointment and went walking and sitting on a busy street ,but no reaction from anyone else. Unless she thought I was stunning which I kind of doubt. I takes a little effort to get over a kids stare.
IDK, kids seem kinda strange like they just know things. Creeps me out a bit tbh.
The one thing you will want to do if you're going to transition is try hard not to decipher people's stares and what they mean. people stare for all sorts of reasons. If it's only one person, and a kid at that, I wouldn't pay attention. Men stare at me a lot and it gets on my nerves. But women never do, so I don't pay attention and try not to look back. I don't think I'm being clocked though; I think it's just men being, um, men. As in they have some right to stare at women even when she notices and they just keep looking. This guy gave me a flower the other day and some other guy kept trying to hit on me with my BF right there. He was passing by though, so yeah. The last thing I want is for my BF to have to get in a fight or something. And he would to. He always says to me how if anybody ever says anything to me when he is around he'll beat their a$$.
But if it's just one person, steph, don't let it get to you. Kids are just kids and stare for all sorts of unknown reasons.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 03, 2014, 09:57:38 PM
The one thing you will want to do if you're going to transition is try hard not to decipher people's stares and what they mean. people stare for all sorts of reasons. If it's only one person, and a kid at that, I wouldn't pay attention. Men stare at me a lot and it gets on my nerves. But women never do, so I don't pay attention and try not to look back. I don't think I'm being clocked though; I think it's just men being, um, men. As in they have some right to stare at women even when she notices and they just keep looking. This guy gave me a flower the other day and some other guy kept trying to hit on me with my BF right there. He was passing by though, so yeah. The last thing I want is for my BF to have to get in a fight or something. And he would to. He always says to me how if anybody ever says anything to me when he is around he'll beat their a$$.
But if it's just one person, steph, don't let it get to you. Kids are just kids and stare for all sorts of unknown reasons.
yea , thanks it was a weird experience
I think its just a kid being a kid. At that age they tend to stare at anyone...who knows what thoughts are going through their brains. Now if the kid said something like, "You look like a boy", or similar to you, or heard questioning something of the like to her mother regarding you, then you got clocked. Most of my troubles were from small children, they see everything in minute detail, noticing things that most adults miss, from adam's apple to subtleties in your voice or mannerism, or your height or body shape, and many times they can't help but vocalize what they've discovered (yeah, announce it to the whole world why don't you). As unnerving as it is, I think it was just a staring child, some stare, some don't.
Kids are unapologetically honest and have this strange ability to just sense things >_< I hate it... I was at a Walmart and this kid was LOUDLY asking her dad "daddy is that a boy or a girl?" And pointing at me, luckily the dad had one of those "sit down and shut up" attitudes (it was late at night). In another incident much earlier into transition, a little kid asked his mom "why is that boy dressed like a girl?"...
If they stare, no big deal, sometimes kids just stare for no real reason, I just hate when they express their brutally honest and curious questions and opinions -_-
Quote from: LittleEmily24 on June 03, 2014, 10:12:38 PM
Kids are unapologetically honest and have this strange ability to just sense things >_< I hate it... I was at a Walmart and this kid was LOUDLY asking her dad "daddy is that a boy or a girl?" And pointing at me, luckily the dad had one of those "sit down and shut up" attitudes (it was late at night). In another incident much earlier into transition, a little kid asked his mom "why is that boy dressed like a girl?"...
If they stare, no big deal, sometimes kids just stare for no real reason, I just hate when they express their brutally honest and curious questions and opinions -_-
Kids do that "boy or girl" thing all the time when I am at work, since I am in "male mode" there. I suppose that is probably a sign I should start looking seriously into going full time. They are just kinda creepy, kids with their keen sense of observation and curiosity.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 03, 2014, 09:57:38 PM
The one thing you will want to do if you're going to transition is try hard not to decipher people's stares and what they mean. people stare for all sorts of reasons. If it's only one person, and a kid at that, I wouldn't pay attention.
Probably the best advice in the whole thread. I didn't look further.
Kids stared at me way before I ever started transition, Im kinda used to it. Funny thing for me is when Im dressed more femininly they tend to stare way less, go figure. Today at the store some girl was staring at me, and as I walked away she started singing that stupid jason derulo wiggle song, looked back when i reached the end of the aisle, she was still staring and singing... I love kids, but what the heck?
Quote from: Megan Joanne on June 03, 2014, 10:09:59 PM
I think its just a kid being a kid. At that age they tend to stare at anyone...who knows what thoughts are going through their brains. I think it was just a staring child, some stare, some don't.
I agree.
It's just something that a lot of children do. I've noticed this even more now that I have a lot of very young nieces and nephews.
A 5 y.o. is going to have an extremely short attention span. Except if it's something small and shiny, or, just odd, yeah they'll stare. They are old enough to distinguish sexes. I think an unbiased face value read of what the child's thought processes where at the time of the stare should be given. So - what Emily said.
Also, yes, they can pose the boy or girl question, but it can be two meanings.
"Is that a boy or girl?"
"Is that a boy dressed as a girl?
As trans people, I think we give ourselves a bit too much credit for being slick. We're not pulling the sheets over every cis person out there.
The last thing I can see myself caring about is what a 5 year old thinks. Group of drunken, hostile men, yes. Kid, no way.
The weird thing is that I used to scare little kids, now they smile at me. Kids do pick up on things.
fk me 5 year old girls stare at me all the time!
little witches!!!!
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 12:04:32 AM
As trans people, I think we give ourselves a bit too much credit for being slick. We're not pulling the sheets over every cis person out there.
I don't know about everyone but I would hope that our goal is not to "pull the sheets over", be "slick", or "trick" cis people. Most people just want to live and be accepted as their gender, not "fool" everyone
No what I mean is I notice a lot of evasive thinking going on with trans people trying to explain away the odd public stares and multiple takes, when a more simpler explanation is likely.
Unless you're sure you are attractive enough to be easy on the eyes, those stares probably mean something else...
(you're being clocked)
Quote from: EmoAlice on June 04, 2014, 01:33:01 AM
I don't know about everyone but I would hope that our goal is not to "pull the sheets over", be "slick", or "trick" cis people. Most people just want to live and be accepted as their gender, not "fool" everyone
no matter your goal
it will still be difficult...
but indeed we do not wish to fool people
we want to be validated as our true selves
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 01:41:53 AM
No what I mean is I notice a lot of evasive thinking going on with trans people trying to explain away the odd public stares and multiple takes, when a more simpler explanation is likely.
Unless you're sure you are attractive enough to be easy on the eyes, those stares probably mean something else...
(you're being clocked)
have I told you that I really enjoy your rational way of thinking?
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 01:41:53 AM
No what I mean is I notice a lot of evasive thinking going on with trans people trying to explain away the odd public stares and multiple takes, when a more simpler explanation is likely.
Unless you're sure you are attractive enough to be easy on the eyes, those stares probably mean something else...
(you're being clocked)
You're probably right. Although it's probably hurting people less to come up with other explanations than to assume the worst, and confidence is only going to make passing better, right? I say let people explain it away...just my opinion.
Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on June 04, 2014, 01:44:07 AM
no matter your goal
it will still be difficult...
but indeed we do not wish to fool people
we want to be validated as our true selves
have I told you that I really enjoy your rational way of thinking?
Thank ye. That's why I won't even self proclaim myself as passing when I know - I don't. And I won't candy coat my public perceptions when writing about my experiences either.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 01:41:53 AM
No what I mean is I notice a lot of evasive thinking going on with trans people trying to explain away the odd public stares and multiple takes, when a more simpler explanation is likely.
Unless you're sure you are attractive enough to be easy on the eyes, those stares probably mean something else...
(you're being clocked)
There's a group of kids that live in my neighborhood. One in particular is probably a 6 or 7 yr old girl. She always looked at me apprehensively when I went out to my car for work. Well one day, when I was walking to my car I saw one of her friends fall while playing, and scrape his hands and knees on the gravel. I went to help, dusted him off and looked at it to make sure it was okay. By that time the mom came out and I told her what happened and told her that he had a little scrape but it wasn't bad. The girl went over to the mom and "Yeah, the lady that I thought looked mean saw it all happen. She's not so mean after all!" I kinda laughed it off. After that, she and I always smiled at each other and said hi when I was going out to my car in the morning.
There's a million reasons kids stare. For all we know, her hair might have looked pink in the light.
Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on June 04, 2014, 01:03:18 AM
fk me 5 year old girls stare at me all the time!
little witches!!!!
BTW - your avatar. :D :D :D
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 04, 2014, 01:58:59 AM
There's a group of kids that live in my neighborhood. One in particular is probably a 6 or 7 yr old girl. She always looked at me apprehensively when I went out to my car for work. Well one day, when I was walking to my car I saw one of her friends fall while playing, and scrape his hands and knees on the gravel. I went to help, dusted him off and looked at it to make sure it was okay. By that time the mom came out and I told her what happened and told her that he had a little scrape but it wasn't bad. The girl went over to the mom and "Yeah, the lady that I thought looked mean saw it all happen. She's not so mean after all!" I kinda laughed it off. After that, she and I always smiled at each other and said hi when I was going out to my car in the morning.
There's a million reasons kids stare. For all we know, her hair might have looked pink in the light.
that happens too I guess
you cant be sure if you dont know that you pass 100%
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 02:02:20 AM
BTW - your avatar. :D :D :D
Kaguya :D
why is she so badass??I want to be like her!
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 04, 2014, 01:58:59 AM
There's a group of kids that live in my neighborhood. One in particular is probably a 6 or 7 yr old girl. She always looked at me apprehensively when I went out to my car for work. Well one day, when I was walking to my car I saw one of her friends fall while playing, and scrape his hands and knees on the gravel. I went to help, dusted him off and looked at it to make sure it was okay. By that time the mom came out and I told her what happened and told her that he had a little scrape but it wasn't bad. The girl went over to the mom and "Yeah, the lady that I thought looked mean saw it all happen. She's not so mean after all!" I kinda laughed it off. After that, she and I always smiled at each other and said hi when I was going out to my car in the morning.
There's a million reasons kids stare. For all we know, her hair might have looked pink in the light.
That's cool. But as I read into it, what's there about you that makes you appear "mean" to the child? And the child is speaking from what experience or context? You know, what does "mean" mean to the child? Maybe they are 'reading' something about you after all?
I think the gist here is about the persons writing experiences in the context of their "passing privilege". I believe if you pass unquestioningly, then you have passing privilege to write about your experiences in a passing context. I.E. "They did a triple take at me because of my beautiful smile!" If you don't pass, then your writing experiences should reflect a non-passing context. I.E. "They did a triple take at me because I was probably being clocked!"
(PS I don't think you look mean.)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fdq18u9.jpg&hash=a8c6aa98fc7d1e6242487dea57a5c4cf0ff9d7da)
I'm a licenced cabbie and occasionally drive cabs for a friend who owns a taxi firm.
I was driving this woman and her little boy and girl to somewhere and noticed in the mirror the little boy, who I guess was about 3 years old, looking at me and giggling. When the mother paid the fare, he said to me: "Are you really a taxi driver?" Before I could say anything, his older sister, who was about 7, said: "Course she is, stupid, she wouldn't be driving a taxi if she wasn't, would she?"
The mother told her daughter to "shhh" and added: "It's just that you're the first lady taxi driver he has seen."
I said it was no problem and explained that the firm had 7 female taxi drivers, so he might see another one soon.
So, Stephaniec, don't worry about it, kids look at people for all sorts of reasons. Had the family left the taxi without saying anything and the little boy had then said something to his mother and then turned to look back at me and pointed, I would have been left wondering, too.
Caroline
x
^ A testament to the perks of passing :D
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 02:15:41 AM
That's cool. But as I read into it, what's there about you that makes you appear "mean" to the child? And the child is speaking from what experience or context? You know, what does "mean" mean to the child? Maybe they are 'reading' something about you after all?
I think the gist here is about persons writing experiences in the context of their "passing privilege". I believe if you pass unquestioningly, then you have passing privilege to write about your experiences in a passing context. I.E. "They did a triple take at me because of my beautiful smile!" If you don't pass, then your writing experiences should reflect a non-passing context. I.E. "They did a triple take at me because I was probably being clocked."
(PS I don't think you look mean.)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fdq18u9.jpg&hash=a8c6aa98fc7d1e6242487dea57a5c4cf0ff9d7da)
I've been told I look unapproachable, and I agree. I don't have a natural smile (as in I don't look like I'm smiling when my face is relaxed). Imagine me on a Monday morning when I'm going to my car to go to work.
I highly doubt there's any other reading going into it, or any reason to think anything other than I looked mean to her. She may have thought that because I never really acknowledged her much until then. I never really thought about it til now. Every mumble I've ever heard from a kid about me has alluded to me being female. "She pressed the elevator button", or "I want her to be my mommy" (That made my day, I was early into my transition at that time). Kids stare at everything. Go to anywhere any day of the week and you'll see it. They'll stare at planes in the sky, trees, overweight women, people with odd colored hair, dogs, cats, short people, tall people. It's what they do. Just because a kid stares at you doesn't mean you're getting clocked.
I pass in transsexual support groups by other transsexuals and gender therapists. I haven't been gendered incorrectly or treated any differently than any other female in I don't remember how long. I seriously don't think I should jump on a "non-passing" context in my opinions. That's basically self destructive for me to honestly sit there and think "I think some young girl thinks I'm a guy!", when there's no indication to believe that whatsoever, and tacked onto the fact that I have no reason to think I've been clocked at any other time in the past year or so. I love you Evelyn and I like many of your views, but I think that line of thinking is flawed.
EDIT: Actually, now that I remember, I live in a duplex which you have to walk around to the back of the house to get in. She used to ride her little 2 wheel scooter thing when she was waiting out at the bus stop. Her mom used to always tell her to stop and let the lady by. For all I know, she thought her having to stop for me to walk by may have been mean. Who knows.
Alaina - personally you get the Passing Privilege Golden Pen all the way in my eyes hon!
I was definitely speaking about some others.
NeWay I'll catch ya's laters gotta run to bed!
I've posted this before, but my friends 4 year old went running to her and said that Cindy was a different woman to her. Mum asked why (intrigued if she had picked me). Cindy drives a sports car; and then walked away with a smug expression and a deflated Mum.
I know many girls struggle with 'passing' but to be honest passing is between the ears most of the time.
I can't believe I forgot this story.
Before I transitioned, me and my 4 yr old niece got along really well. I transitioned and didn't see her again for about a year. When I saw her again, she looked at me pretty deeply and my brother and I were like "she's trying to piece something together" right in front of her while she was thinking. Well, maybe she did, but she ended up calling me aunt Alaina. She didn't mention once about uncle *old name*.
I guess she had the feeling that she met me before, but couldn't think of where and what was going on. Who knows. Kids don't process everything that well, and that's why they're curious. About EVERYTHING.
i had a young boy about 5 ask his mum why that boy had bigger boobs than her. i just carried on walking and then just laughed and thought yeah not bad
Quote from: LittleEmily24 on June 03, 2014, 10:12:38 PMIf they stare, no big deal, sometimes kids just stare for no real reason, I just hate when they express their brutally honest and curious questions and opinions -_-
Children, especially those under the age of ten have a deep need to understand their world and what is happening around them. Because of their limited life experience, whenever they encounter something new they want an explanation. They aren't old enough to have learned hate or to really have an opinion, they just want to understand what box to put this new experience into. They usually don't possess the social skills to ask in a tactful manner, but they mean no harm.
I was watching my partner's five year old one day and she asked me "If you're a girl, how come you have a boy voice?" I answered "Because I used to be a boy". She replied "That's cool. Can I have a snack?"
Remember the underlying theme of nearly every Disney movie ever made is some sort of transition. A frog becomes a prince, a maid becomes a queen, a puppet becomes a real boy. As far as children know transition is a normal part of life, it happens all the time.
Quote from: allisonsteph on June 04, 2014, 11:12:57 AM
Children, especially those under the age of ten have a deep need to understand their world and what is happening around them. Because of their limited life experience, whenever they encounter something new they want an explanation. They aren't old enough to have learned hate or to really have an opinion, they just want to understand what box to put this new experience into. They usually don't possess the social skills to ask in a tactful manner, but they mean no harm.
I was watching my partner's five year old one day and she asked me "If you're a girl, how come you have a boy voice?" I answered "Because I used to be a boy". She replied "That's cool. Can I have a snack?"
Remember the underlying theme of nearly every Disney movie ever made is some sort of transition. A frog becomes a prince, a maid becomes a queen, a puppet becomes a real boy. As far as children know transition is a normal part of life, it happens all the time.
In a film called a knight tale,
Ayoung passant boy dreams of becoming a knight, this is laughed of and the boy was told he may as well try to change the stars.
He succeeds, because he meets another person that hides their past to compete, and both understand that knight hood has nothing to do with the perceived knight/nobility but the noble heart, the desire to compete and meet the challenge and to over come it and to succeed. And a knowledge that money alone can not buy you these things, and that being perceived as not noble and too noble can both rob you of true knighthood.
So yeah, peasant/perceived un knightly becomes victor great warrior with a noble heart, finally become seen as knightly, a who they are that would never of been seen as what they were
thanks everyone for the help. That stare of a child that you don't know the reason for when you new to transitioning and trying to experience freedom can kind of knock you for a loop.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 02:15:41 AM
That's cool. But as I read into it, what's there about you that makes you appear "mean" to the child? And the child is speaking from what experience or context? You know, what does "mean" mean to the child? Maybe they are 'reading' something about you after all?
My cousins first child would run back to her, almost crying when ever she saw someone with facial hair. Maybe it's because few people have facial hair. I think there were 2 family members she would have met with beards. Around the age of 3 she had grown out of it. Sometimes it's just that lack of life experience that gives kids wonky ideas, like beard = run in terror >:-)
Kids (especially under 10) and going to tell you exactly how that see you. So they are going to be honest on how they gender you. One day, I had some sparse white facial hair because I had electrolysis the next day, but you can only see it when a bright light hits it a certain way and even then only if you are within a foot of me. Anyway I was stating in line at a Panera Bread and a 6 years old girl kept looking up at me. I'm thinking that I'm going to get clocked by a 6 year old or asked about my hair. She then says to me: "Your a tall lady!" I just smiled and responded back that yes I am and I'm not the only lady that's tall here. (I'm 6'7"). I told her that the manager here is also tall like me. (She's a cis-woman that is also 6'7".) She looked over at her and then to her mom (who was short) and said: "I hope I get to be tall like you when I grow up." And then she said to her mom: "Mommy, your short!". Kids can be awesome :)
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on June 04, 2014, 09:43:27 PM
Kids (especially under 10) and going to tell you exactly how that see you. So they are going to be honest on how they gender you. One day, I had some sparse white facial hair because I had electrolysis the next day, but you can only see it when a bright light hits it a certain way and even then only if you are within a foot of me. Anyway I was stating in line at a Panera Bread and a 6 years old girl kept looking up at me. I'm thinking that I'm going to get clocked by a 6 year old or asked about my hair. She then says to me: "Your a tall lady!" I just smiled and responded back that yes I am and I'm not the only lady that's tall here. (I'm 6'7"). I told her that the manager here is also tall like me. (She's a cis-woman that is also 6'7".) She looked over at her and then to her mom (who was short) and said: "I hope I get to be tall like you when I grow up." And then she said to her mom: "Mommy, your short!". Kids can be awesome :)
that's funny
and kids over 10 are gunna be down right disrespectful and offensive
Quote from: Elanore joey on June 05, 2014, 12:38:55 PM
and kids over 10 are gunna be down right disrespectful and offensive
yes, definitely have a fear of drunken eighteen year olds
Quote from: stephaniec on June 05, 2014, 01:09:09 PM
yes, definitely have a fear of drunken eighteen year olds
they dont have to be 18 or drunk, where i live you steer clear of all youngsters not that i like painting them with the same brush but i have to for my own safety.