I think after browsing this tumblr, you'll know what I mean. The images are so powerful, that even I, as a M2F (thankfully very very early in transition) had to hit the emergency brakes and rethink what "it's all about".
http://johnny-escobar.tumblr.com/archive
Especially check out the stuff from March 2013 onwards.
Oh yeah, some no-nudes, don't worry about that. It's images of dream cars, luxury apartments, money and power, no-nude girls.
Cheers,
Evelyn K
FYI I also posted the same link in the M2F forum.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.0.html
You may like to add that some of the images at the link are potentially NSFW... :)
And done!
I'm not sure what you are going for by posting this. It's pictures of things that some people like, male or female. Imagery and photography like that doesn't appeal to everyone.
Money and Power doesn't sing to you as a male? You don't feel the male privilege and androcentric undercurrent of the photo's depicted?
I'll be honest: I don't get it. What am I missing?
I see a bunch of pics of expensive cars (which anyone with enough money could buy, not just guys) and a bunch of pics of women in their undies (not my cup of tea) and some pics of some posh-looking buildings. Oh, and some Apple hardware (which anyone with enough cash can buy too).
There is nothing in that list that I couldn't have had (apart from the women - but I did have more hot guys to choose from) back when I used to present as female, if only I'd had the cash. So I don't see it as male privilege; rather, I see it more as status or wealth privilege.
What I did notice, however, was that these are all photos of things this particular person has objectified. To him, a fast car or a snazzy apartment or the latest iPhone is exactly the same as a half-naked woman posing provocatively in her underwear: a pretty accessory he wishes he had in is life, and he's posting pics of these things to show the lifestyle to which he aspires. I don't see this as 'male privilege' per se... I see it as being vacuous and shallow. I also see it as being misogynistic, because the women in these pics seem to be nothing more than objects - proven by the fact that many of the pics show the women's bodies, but not their faces.
To me, this is just a yuppie posting a bunch of pics of things he'd love to have.
I think most guys can relate to wanting and lusting the same things that this "Johnny Escobar" person has objectified.
Or maybe it's a cis guy thing?
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 06:45:45 AM
I think most guys can relate to wanting and lusting the same things that this "Johnny Escobar" person has objectified.
Or maybe it's a cis guy thing?
Or maybe this Escobar characted is a horrible steroetype?
A cis man wanting to become wealthy and powerful is a stereotype? ???
Nope. I'd trade all of that for some inner peace knowing that I don't have to lie to myself or society any longer.
I like my Focus just fine and I'm hopeful there will be a woman out there for me somewhere down the line. :)
Edit: a pet tiger would be pretty righteous though
Quote from: kelly_aus on June 04, 2014, 06:48:40 AM
Or maybe this Escobar character is a horrible steroetype?
Yep. Cause you just know ALL men are supposed to want hot women and fast cars.
It's interesting that the comments in the MtF forum thread are along similar lines to the ones in this thread.
Women can be very wealthy too. For example: Tamara Ecclestone is actually a great deal wealthier than this guy will ever be. Granted, she's inherited most of her cash from Daddy... but does she have male privilege because she has all the cars, houses and (if she chooses) hot guys she could ever want? Or is she privileged because she's wealthy?
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 06:45:45 AM
I think most guys can relate to wanting and lusting the same things that this "Johnny Escobar" person has objectified.
Erm, nope. Only the shallow ones. Also, there are plenty of guys who aren't into women. And not everyone likes cars, or aspires to be wealthy. Or is an Apple fan. Etc.
Quote from: kelly_aus on June 04, 2014, 06:48:40 AM
Or maybe this Escobar characted is a horrible steroetype?
^This x 1000.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 06:52:36 AM
A cis man wanting to become wealthy and powerful is a stereotype? ???
Absolutely.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 06:52:36 AM
A cis man wanting to become wealthy and powerful is a stereotype? ???
To be fair among my cismale friends only one of them would rather have money and power than go out LARPing. They could put on a suit go out try and make lots of money impress people etc, but they seem to desire to just be geeky and nerdy.
Money and power hold allure to many of both genders more men than women sure but it is hardly some universal truth that people want that life.
Now I understand why this went right over my head. As a gay male, the women had no appeal to me.
And the cars, well...Even if I had the money I wouldn't be spending it on fast cars that are too expensive to use in daily life. Such a waste.
I guess I'm not adhering to the stereotype that is being displayed. In fact, that's just what it is. A silly stereotype.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 04, 2014, 07:05:05 AM
It's interesting that the comments in the MtF forum thread are along similar lines to the ones in this thread.
I don't know I see two angles to this - a M2F wants to do away with all things male assigned. Why would they give credence to something that's a nemesis to their transitioned identity?
And F2M - well this isn't my camp. But I'm thinking it's a hardwired related kind of thing.
I don't know how to say it more euphemistically. But this is all interesting conversation because it demonstrates some contradictions in mindset with the genders identified.
if it helps, I def want hot women, fast cars, sweet apartments, nice watches, big city living, nice suits, yeah its appealing that's for sure, will put it in dream zone lol
Quote from: Mr.X on June 04, 2014, 07:17:05 AM
Now I understand why this went right over my head. As a gay male, the women had no appeal to me.
And the cars, well...Even if I had the money I wouldn't be spending it on fast cars that are too expensive to use in daily life. Such a waste.
I guess I'm not adhering to the stereotype that is being displayed. In fact, that's just what it is. A silly stereotype.
If you had money, you wouldn't be spending it on fast cars that are too expensive? If it's too expensive, then you don't really 'have' money. ;D
Having money to burn changes you.
(well most humans)
With too expensive to use I meant you can't even pass speed bumps because of how low the cars are, or park them outside because they'll get stolen.
If I had money, I would not be spending it on cars. I have other priorities. And so have a lot of other men.
I've always felt like cars are an incredible waste of money. I can always think of things I'd rather spend money on than cars. And fast cars scare me. If I want the thrill of speed, I'd rather get it on a roller coaster or something that's much safer. I value my life. Having a nice car (not necessarily fast) is also a huge source of stress. Everywhere you go, you worry about it getting scratched. I had a somewhat nice car for a couple years and it feels like an anchor. Ever since I decided to only buy used cars and not worry one bit how they look, I've felt incredibly free. It's been awesome. If I had money to burn, I'd do a lot of traveling but I'm not likely to ever have a lot of money to burn because I value my free time more than what I would have to give up to have more money. But then, I'm a gay man and I'm not trying to attract women, and guys who are trying to attract women feel like those things are what's necessary to do it, but of course those things only attract shallow women, but maybe those types of guys are okay with that. I'm not even trying that hard to attract guys to be honest.
I think it's a bit of a reach to act like money and status symbols are tied to gender. Doesn't it seem sexist to assign it like that? I just think there's a tendency to have different preferences of status symbols. For shallow guys, it might be sports cars. For shallow women, it might be diamond jewelry and a Gucci purse. In both cases, it's their belief of what will attract shallow members of the opposite sex.
I'm cis, fwiw.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 06:33:24 AM
Money and Power doesn't sing to you as a male? You don't feel the male privilege and androcentric undercurrent of the photo's depicted?
No. Not at all. Those pictures do nothing for me. I see wasted money and women in underwear which is meh. My mother collected playboys when I was kid. I'm gay so I never got it. I'm sure those pictures depict a reality of male privilege. Privilege exists in every group. But that reality isn't one I care for. It's like "men's rights" groups. I may be male but I could not care less about that hogwash.
Money wise, I have more than enough. I live very comfortably, I have everything I want. I can go out whenever I feel like, I can buy whatever I want. Money is not something I worry about and I can't spend enough between pay days to make a dent in my savings. What would I do with more?
I don't get why it's so hard to believe that guys can just be people. Not all women are insanely girly and shop constantly. These stereotypes exist for a reason, but they don't apply to everyone. A lot of the time it applies to a vocal minority. My husband is a "Cis" male and he looked at the pictures and asked me why I was showing him random pictures. Right over his head too.
You want to appeal to my sense of "male privilege" show me a picture of a stable life, a happy and content family and a couple of pets. Show me the dream cabin my husband and I have pieced together from random pictures. Show me job satisfaction (regardless of income) and the happiness that comes from helping others and a job well done.
Cars and money? They don't buy you a loving relationship, self fulfillment, self enrichment. Money buys you things and really, how much does one person need? Women, or in my case men? Why? I have a wonderful partner. Why do I need more than that?
You know, the stuff in those pics is nice, but at the end of the day it's just stuff. In spite of what the world tells you stuff does not bring happiness, it just brings the desire for more stuff.
I have known some people that had nothing and yet those people were some of the happiest and most content people I've ever known.
Personally, I'd rather have that kind of contentment in my life and let other people pursue happiness by acquiring more and more stuff. As long as I have a car that runs, a roof over my head, food on the table, and a source of income - I'm happy :)
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:02:21 AM
If I posted this tumbler link in say, the bodybuilding.com forums or some place like hairlosstalk which is mostly androcentric, you can darn well bet the thread will be filled with "I'd hit it!" "Nice!" "Phat watch" "These are what dreams are made of" "Rock on!" types of posts with inserted images and everyone literally drooling over the man crush content.
Why do you choose to describe it as "androcentric"? Why do you choose to focus on their gender instead of on their shallowness? Some
people are shallow. When you describe sites that appeal to shallow people who seem absolutely obsessed with certain physical traits as androcentric, you seem to ascribe shallow behavior to men in particular. One shouldn't point to beauty pageants in order to say "Look how shallow women are in particular". That's a kind of tunnel vision that reinforces a particular sexist viewpoint.
The thing is, I surf a lot of forums. I know how people act on forums. The males in here don't act like the males on the other forums.
So something is suspect.
I'm not being sexist, I'm not denying the obvious either.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:02:21 AM
^^ I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound disparaging, but you really sound like a woman! ;D
If I posted this tumbler link in say, the bodybuilding.com forums or some place like hairlosstalk which is mostly androcentric, you can darn well bet the thread will be filled with "I'd hit it!" "Nice!" "Phat watch" "These are what dreams are made of" "Rock on!" types of posts with inserted images and everyone literally drooling over the man crush content.
Ahh.. Places where the locals haven't realised that material wealth doesn't actually bring happiness and is, in fact, a faintly steaming pile of crap.
Granted that might not be a popular way of thinking with men, we attribute happiness to our possessions, in the flesh or mechanical.
Men *love* their toys.
Example:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/what-omega-owners-drive-349515.html
And this is just middle class type of stuff.
But I don't get this same "hurrah!" bravado vibe from the males in here regarding my OP, which has been completely unexpected (but now makes sense).
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
The thing is, I surf a lot of forums. I know how people act on forums. The males in here don't act like males like on the other forums.
So something is suspect.
I'm not being sexist, I'm not denying the obvious either.
Of course the people here act differently - we are coloured by our past and for many of us our past sets us apart from the general population. Whether the direction of travel is MtF or FtM is irrelevant because we have each experienced male and female socialization.
None of the things you have posted are exclusively the product of male privilege. They are available to anyone with money. If you value them then you do not have to give up being female to gain them.
Are you posting this because you are looking for a reason to halt your transition? Something external to allow you to avoid making a difficult decision? "I had to stop because of xxxxx or yyyyy" rather than "I had serious doubts"? From reading your other posts over the past few weeks and months - certainly since you started E - it does sound like you are very unsure that you want the consequences of a full-blown transition.
If transition is wrong for you, or at least not 99% right for you, then you would be best stopping for a while. Maybe a detransition back to full male mode (no more E) and see how you feel would be the best thing.
It all depends if these sort of questions are about looking for a reason to halt.
Only you can answer that.
Quote from: dalebert on June 04, 2014, 07:44:08 AM
I think it's a bit of a reach to act like money and status symbols are tied to gender. Doesn't it seem sexist to assign it like that? I just think there's a tendency to have different preferences of status symbols. For shallow guys, it might be sports cars. For shallow women, it might be diamond jewelry and a Gucci purse. In both cases, it's their belief of what will attract shallow members of the opposite sex.
I'm cis, fwiw.
I smiled so much at this. (feels a bit shallow)
I did say, exchange the cars to a couple pretty dresses and some outrageous shoes and it might appeal to me more.
Then again I am guilty of this VVV
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
M2F wants to do away with all things male assigned. Why would they give credence to something that's a nemesis to their transitioned identity?
Given that I choose not to mention that I do have a dream car. And choose not to mention it because of its male stereotype association. However, Even as I shop on online I see allsorts of pretty dresses and stuff I choose not to buy due to there practicality. Although they are really very appealing. And its the same with the car, Its is more likely to be stolen, Id be less likely to drive it ect. And nobody wants to tear a piece of clothing that they spend an awful lot of money on.
Quote from: ytxwmb on June 04, 2014, 08:29:09 AM
Of course the people here act differently - we are coloured by our past and for many of us our past sets us apart from the general population. Whether the direction of travel is MtF or FtM is irrelevant because we have each experienced male and female socialization.
None of the things you have posted are exclusively the product of male privilege. They are available to anyone with money. If you value them then you do not have to give up being female to gain them.
Are you posting this because you are looking for a reason to halt your transition? Something external to allow you to avoid making a difficult decision? "I had to stop because of xxxxx or yyyyy" rather than "I had serious doubts"? From reading your other posts over the past few weeks and months - certainly since you started E - it does sound like you are very unsure that you want the consequences of a full-blown transition.
If transition is wrong for you, or at least not 99% right for you, then you would be best stopping for a while. Maybe a detransition back to full male mode (no more E) and see how you feel would be the best thing.
It all depends if these sort of questions are about looking for a reason to halt.
Only you can answer that.
The things posted may not be exclusive, but it's primarily in the domain of male acquired privilege. I'm not going to argue the number of millionaires and billionaires and which cis gender monopolizes that by a HUGE margin. I'm sure most of us know.
Anyway I won't argue against halting transition to see how I feel. I'll make an executive decision about it soon enough. (or maybe she will). ^-^
I guess the owner of the blog is a young guy. I think much young guys long for this lifestyle, but with time most of them "grows up" anf realizes there are more important things in life than hot girls, cool cars etc. Sometimes I also would like to have a part of my life when the hardest decision is which car would I like to drive or which watch to put on, wich girl to go home with. I'm sure I would enjoy it for a while but money and power never was the center of my life.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:22:23 AM
Granted that might not be a popular way of thinking with men, we attribute happiness to our possessions, in the flesh or mechanical.
Men *love* their toys.
Example:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/what-omega-owners-drive-349515.html
And this is just middle class type of stuff.
That thread is not really about loving their toys... It is one of those typical "measuring" threads which are inevitable when men, testosterone and their hobbies are involved.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
The thing is, I surf a lot of forums. I know how people act on forums. The males in here don't act like males like on the other forums.
So something is suspect.
I'm not being sexist, I'm not denying the obvious either.
Hon you may want to settle down a bit. Not all guys want those things. Sure money and power are appealing for some people. Happiness comes in all shapes and size in every matter of life. Some men was fast cars, some women want fast cars. You shouldn't make blanket statements like and then tell the guys here that they don't act like males [from other forums]. Forums are rather specific subsets of human idenities. This is a support forum for tran+ individuals. IMO I wouldn't suspect most people here to talk like people in a car or bodybuilding forum because this isn't the correct venue (there are spaces her for those discussions also) for it. The view you see of people here is a small peek into their lives not full exposure.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:02:21 AM
^^ I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound disparaging, but you really sound like a woman! ;D
If I posted this tumbler link in say, the bodybuilding.com forums or some place like hairlosstalk which is mostly androcentric, you can darn well bet the thread will be filled with "I'd hit it!" "Nice!" "Phat watch" "These are what dreams are made of" "Rock on!" types of posts with inserted images and everyone literally drooling over the man crush content.
That's probably the most insulting and hurtful thing I will see all day. No, not for me. But for other people here. Most of the cismen in my life wouldn't even be interested in that. They grew up, for one.
You ever think we might be interested in other things? I'm too practical to want a fancy sports car. Make it a classic truck and a group of hairy men and I might be interested in "hitting that".
Quote from: Hayley on June 04, 2014, 08:40:42 AM
Hon you may want to settle down a bit. Not all guys want those things. Sure money and power are appealing for some people. Happiness comes in all shapes and size in every matter of life. Some men was fast cars, some women want fast cars. You shouldn't make blanket statements like and then tell the guys here that they don't act like males [from other forums]. Forums are rather specific subsets of human idenities. This is a support forum for tran+ individuals. IMO I wouldn't suspect most people here to talk like people in a car or bodybuilding forum because this isn't the correct venue (there are spaces her for those discussions also) for it. The view you see of people here is a small peek into their lives not full exposure.
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:
"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."
Do you see how preposterous that sounds? "some" ??
Right...
The fact is, what I posted will have rapport with a majority of cis men. Not just 'some'.
I do get it with the microcosm here and this particular trans cross-section will have a different opinion from cis males. I will admit I should have been more understanding about that. Apologies if I offended.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F30uv4vn.jpg&hash=89b3b5f6198b7f656f8d4558ae6cb9772593976c)
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:02:21 AM
^^ I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound disparaging, but you really sound like a woman! ;D
If I posted this tumbler link in say, the bodybuilding.com forums or some place like hairlosstalk which is mostly androcentric, you can darn well bet the thread will be filled with "I'd hit it!" "Nice!" "Phat watch" "These are what dreams are made of" "Rock on!" types of posts with inserted images and everyone literally drooling over the man crush content.
And at some points I sound like a man. But its that word
LIKE. A cis man can be referred to as LIKE a woman by calling him effeminate. And a lot of assumption can be made because of this, usually that he's gay. Because that is the gay stereo type, because a straight male isn't "supposed to be" like that. But the truth of the matter is, their is not "supposed to be" when it comes to people.
Supposed to be, Is a word of oppression used to enforce what a person expects and/or desires another person to be. When all a person can be is themselves, applying supposed to be to a person marginalises them as a person, discredits other factors of their identity, which can cause feelings of being wrong and not normal.
I play video games, that's a boy thing, But is it? My sisters all play them? I know more girls that play them, my experience makes games a girl thing? But the reality makes them genderless. I think its the same with everything we apply gender too. What we feel how we act and react are not girl boy ways, but US our self ways. And the supposed to be mentalities concerning who we are, are what hurt us with our existence. And even the privileges concerning each gender supposed to be can cause us to feel trapped and restricted.
When you get right down to it people are not stereo types, and trans is going a long way to prove that.
Edit---
For a long while, I struggled with weather this was right for me to do, based singularly on my chromosomes, something about me that I found undeniably male. And often though that because of them I would have to say, "if you mean do I have xx chromosomes, then no" when ever I was asked if I'm a woman. But I just recently discovered that even these do not matter, AIS.
And so even now even my chromosomes aren't something undeniably male about me.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:
"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."
Do you see how preposterous that sounds? "some" ??
Right...
The fact is, what I posted will have rapport with a majority of cis men. Not just 'some'.
I do get it with the microcosm here and this particular trans cross-section will have a different opinion from cis males. I will admit I should have been more understanding about that. Apologies if I offended.
How do you measure "most"? Is this based on the forums you visit? The shows and movies you see? Because your most is my minority. In my little corner of the PNW, my geeky forums and the career and interests I have, it's not like that. Not for the men or the women.
The women I know, they may care about their looks to a degree, but they don't want to look like super models. They care much more about their interests, families and careers than makeup. I am trying to imagine showing them a similar tumbler and telling them "this is what you want!" and it's laughable.
It's really hard to figure out your intent here. You aren't acknowledging the people who are saying that the cis-men they know don't fit your stereotype. You titled the thread "privilege" but it seems like maybe it's more about status? Like you want to point out men crave status? But why do you need to point that out? What does that gain you and this forum?
Earlier you made a statement that men like their toys. If you'd said that, I'd have less troubles. However, most of the men I know, you'd have to post of tumbler of mountain bikes, or art supplies or green houses or tools or.. I don't know. That's the point really. All men aren't hired wired to want flashy cars. All women aren't hard wired to want to be super models.
If you want to look at it from an animal behavior perspective (my area of focus in university), men *probably* are hard-wired to show off. This can take the form of flashy cars or it can take the form of having the best looking garden. Male birds sing, male deer grow huge racks of antlers, male frogs croak... etc. But that's a small bit of what forms a man and how that is expressed is as varied as can be.
Quote from: christopher on June 04, 2014, 09:34:00 AM
How do you measure "most"? Is this based on the forums you visit? The shows and movies you see? Because your most is my minority. In my little corner of the PNW, my geeky forums and the career and interests I have, it's not like that. Not for the men or the women.
The women I know, they may care about their looks to a degree, but they don't want to look like super models. They care much more about their interests, families and careers than makeup. I am trying to imagine showing them a similar tumbler and telling them "this is what you want!" and it's laughable.
It's really hard to figure out your intent here. You aren't acknowledging the people who are saying that the cis-men they know don't fit your stereotype. You titled the thread "privilege" but it seems like maybe it's more about status? Like you want to point out men crave status? But why do you need to point that out? What does that gain you and this forum?
Earlier you made a statement that men like their toys. If you'd said that, I'd have less troubles. However, most of the men I know, you'd have to post of tumbler of mountain bikes, or art supplies or green houses or tools or.. I don't know. That's the point really. All men aren't hired wired to want flashy cars. All women aren't hard wired to want to be super models.
If you want to look at it from an animal behavior perspective (my area of focus in university), men *probably* are hard-wired to show off. This can take the form of flashy cars or it can take the form of having the best looking garden. Male birds sing, male deer grow huge racks of antlers, male frogs croak... etc. But that's a small bit of what forms a man and how that is expressed is as varied as can be.
Sigh. Power vis-a-vis Money. It's all intertwined. Why obfuscate it. 99% of clinically sane men would trade their rinky dinky mountain biking lifestyle for a bank vault.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:
"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."
Do you see how preposterous that sounds? "some" ??
Right...
The fact is, what I posted will have rapport with a majority of cis men. Not just 'some'.
I do get it with the microcosm here and this particular trans cross-section will have a different opinion from cis males. I will admit I should have been more understanding about that. Apologies if I offended.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F30uv4vn.jpg&hash=89b3b5f6198b7f656f8d4558ae6cb9772593976c)
I don't get easily offended, but what you're saying offends me.
I guess I live in one of this microcosms where "most" men and "most" women do not fall into these categories. The cis and trans people I look up to and spend my time with are multifaceted, kind, interesting people. Whether they're interested in cars or not. Or makeup. Or puppies. and, yeah, I have friends of "both" genders who love these things.
But my teenage brother? He'd probably like to look at that blog you linked.
Maybe it's time to take a look at who you are spending your time with.
Yeah your right. These immature movers and shakers are cramping up my image, yo.
Anyway I'll leave you men alone. Gotta run back to my little bubble. Been fun.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:02:21 AM
^^ I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound disparaging, but you really sound like a woman! ;D
If I posted this tumbler link in say, the bodybuilding.com forums or some place like hairlosstalk which is mostly androcentric, you can darn well bet the thread will be filled with "I'd hit it!" "Nice!" "Phat watch" "These are what dreams are made of" "Rock on!" types of posts with inserted images and everyone literally drooling over the man crush content.
I think you are confusing gender with subculture. Almost all men pursue a path that isn't just power and money, I mean if all men were just like that we would have a lot fewer college professors and a lot more wolves on wall street.
I bet you could go to a bodybuilding forum and find lots of things that are not representative of maleness but of bodybuilding culture. There will always be women like fmr senator Clinton who seek power and men who are content to work in a public school; that doesn't make them less of women or less of men.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:41:47 AM
Sigh. Power vis-a-vis Money. It's all intertwined. Why obfuscate it. 99% of clinically sane men would trade their rinky dinky mountain biking lifestyle for a bank vault.
I'd comment that 99% of the clinically sane men I know wouldn't want to trade, but you'd simply ignore it.
And, just for a moment, consider cultural differences - which can be quite large, even amongst the english-speaking 'western' countries.
Now, I do know some guys who'd be in to the cars.. For the cars themselves, not any imagined 'status' they may impose - but I know women just the same about cars.
The 99% of clinically sane men you know are .001% of the majority :D
Ok gotta go. Seriously. Been fun ;D
Quote from: kelly_aus on June 04, 2014, 09:53:12 AM
I'd comment that 99% of the clinically sane men I know wouldn't want to trade, but you'd simply ignore it.
Some people do not like to listen if they fail to get the answer they want....
As a cismale, money, fast cars(classic muscle cars only please), street bikes, were on my short list.. maybe to fit in, but still were on my list. Cisfemales likely will never get the attraction of them as its a competitive natured thing that comes with the T. Danica Patrick, Shirley Muldowney, and the like aside, the majority of ciswomen would rather buy interior accessories for a '67 396 Chevelle with an Muncie M22 Rockcrusher, 4.56, 12bolt power train than actually build it. It isn't a flaw, its genetic, trans or not.
Quote from: ytxwmb on June 04, 2014, 10:05:57 AM
Some people do not like to listen if they fail to get the answer they want....
Or they're a troll. I'm gonna go with troll.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:
"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."
Do you see how preposterous that sounds? "some" ??
How is it preposterous? It's not preposterous in the slightest.
I agree that there is a small sub-section of the female population that focuses entirely on their looks and on material things. In many cases, they've been taught that their looks are their best asset... and the best way to get a man who's wealthy enough to pay for the lifestyle they want. But that's a
very small minority of women. And that small minority tends to go for the small minority of men that includes that Escobar guy. They're fishing for each other in their own specialised pool. But just because a handful of women want to be pneumatic Barbie-clone gold-diggers (which they are
perfectly entitled to do if they so wish) does
not mean that this is something that applies to women in general. Just like Escobar doesn't represent men in general.
The majority of women just do the best they can to get through each day. They work, they pay their taxes, they might raise families, they do other things too. Whilst doing these things, they may try to keep as healthy as possible, and many of them might try to look as good as possible whilst doing it,
particularly if they've been raised to believe that looks are important. But that's not generally their main focus: mainly, they're just trying to live a normal life, y'know? Aren't we all?
I urge you to watch this TED talk by Lizzie Velasquez, and then come tell me how preposterous it is to suggest that some women aren't all about their beauty and their looks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c62Aqdlzvqk
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
The fact is, what I posted will have rapport with a majority of cis men. Not just 'some'.
Perhaps in the circles in which you've moved, but there's a whole big world out there, and men come in all sorts of varieties.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
I do get it with the microcosm here and this particular trans cross-section will have a different opinion from cis males. I will admit I should have been more understanding about that. Apologies if I offended.
That's something that can be easily overlooked: the fact that we FtM guys were raised as girls and many of us were forced to socialise as girls, with all the restrictions and hang-ups that come with that.
Damn it's embarassing when someone quotes a post in the short time between me posting it and then deleting it.. :embarrassed:
Images of things this person covets isn't privilege. Anyone, of any gender or race can do this equally with things they covet.
Male privilege refers to things like not having your credibility challenge simply because of your anatomy. Walking to your car alone in late a night with barely any more anxiety or fear as would have in broad day. It is things that simply are for one group that isn't for other groups.
Images of desired things, no matter how typical or stereotypical or misogynistic, are not privilege.
Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 10:11:27 AM
As a cismale, money, fast cars(classic muscle cars only please), street bikes, were on my short list.. maybe to fit in, but still were on my list. Cisfemales likely will never get the attraction of them as its a competitive natured thing that cines with the T. Danica Patrick, Shirley Muldowney, and the like aside, the majority of ciswomen would rather buy interior accessories for a '67 396 Chevelle with an Muncie M22 Rockcrusher, 4.56, 12bolt power train than actually build it. It isn't a flaw, its genetic, trans or not.
I Don't think saying its genetic is true or fair Because in a way, you drawing a line down society and placing people on one side or another based upon a few singles traits, when people with those traits wont belong there. And will feel wrong insignificant or like they don't matter.
So its personal :P this for those who want it, that for those who want that. you draw the line by all means, but the side of that line on which to stand, is each and every persons choice. The problems we have in society is that we make assumptions of what a person is like in a different area because of what they are like one or two separate areas. Which is wrong. Eg because being male and liking pink, doesn't mean your gay. people assume it regardless, because if you were straight you wouldn't admit to liking it because, you wouldn't want people to think your gay.
And this happens so many times in so many areas, its hilarious.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
The thing is, I surf a lot of forums. I know how people act on forums. The males in here don't act like the males on the other forums.
So something is suspect.
I'm not being sexist, I'm not denying the obvious either.
Your ideal of manhood is very shallow. I know some very caring men who are not all about money,sex,and power. And to be honest I find it downright hypocritical to call out the ftm's on this site for not acting like a stereotypical male. And your not even acting like a stereotypical female. I think you should look in the mirror first before you start trying to tell a person how they should act!
Quote from: kelly_aus on June 04, 2014, 10:30:20 AM
Damn it's embarassing when someone quotes a post in the short time between me posting it and then deleting it.. :embarrassed:
But what they quoted was right, maybe a bit to confrontational for your liking. but You did point out what a stereotype was,
a person own perspective of what something is like through their own experiences.
Quote from: Heather on June 04, 2014, 10:42:40 AM
Your ideal of manhood is very shallow. I know some very caring men who are not all about money,sex,and power. And to be honest I find it downright hypocritical to call out the ftm's on this site for not acting like a stereotypical male. And your not even acting like a stereotypical female. I think you should look in the mirror first before you start trying to tell a person how they should act!
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.msg1441834.html#msg1441834
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F29bmgg.jpg&hash=0480c1e2a15c852f669ed0fd92746431cf4c55f6)
I think that male privilege is expressed by hot cars, hot babes, etc or at least the fantasy of that. It is all wrapped up in confidence, independence and power. I have had times in my life when I made a lot of money and had a lot of toys. For me it was compensation for feeling like I was a fake and a fraud.
For most of the dudes I knew and hung with, it was just the way things were and also the way they should be. Women were arm candy, not partners, or even really friends outside of the bedroom.
F***ing made me crazy, and eventually the money and toys all went away. So did the friends. Men who have "made it" in business are to some degree sociopathic if not psychopathic. There is some pretty interesting new research along these lines. Since the success and power that flows from this is the projected ideal, lots of men buy into it. The more disturbing bit of male privilege I think is more subtle, it is the unspoken assumption of the fundamental inferiority of women at the intellectual and emotional level.
That was something I thought a lot about when beginning to transition. Was I ready to deal with the almost automatic assumption of less intelligence, and less competence when I began to present as a woman? Can I deal with the mild denigration that goes with being female? The answer to both is yes I can deal with it, but no I don't have to accept it.
I am a girl, I am powerful and competent, and I am also loving and feminine. Maybe that is a legacy T-girls can bring to the table. We do not have to be invisible, and we can help each other and our cis sisters to go there too.
Thanks for the thread,
Julie
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 10:47:33 AM
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.msg1441834.html#msg1441834
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F29bmgg.jpg&hash=0480c1e2a15c852f669ed0fd92746431cf4c55f6)
To be absolutely fair what did you think was gonna happen when you tried to define who other people are? The reaction will be negative unless they 100% agree with your definition and surely you didn't expect people to.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:50:11 AM
Yeah your right. These immature movers and shakers are cramping up my image, yo.
Anyway I'll leave you men alone. Gotta run back to my little bubble. Been fun.
"movers and shakers"? You must be defining these differently than I do, this equates with lusting after power, woman, and cars.
Quote from: Heather on June 04, 2014, 10:42:40 AM
Your ideal of manhood is very shallow. I know some very caring men who are not all about money,sex,and power. And to be honest I find it downright hypocritical to call out the ftm's on this site for not acting like a stereotypical male. And your not even acting like a stereotypical female. I think you should look in the mirror first before you start trying to tell a person how they should act!
Really?? Of all the males you know, how many are very caring? How many are the knuckle-dragging, booty-oogling, TimAllen-tool-time-grunting, football/basketball/baseball/hockey-loving hardware freaks?
Quote from: Evelyn K link=topic=166361.msg1441796#
msg1441796 date=1401890946
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:
"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."
Again I will say some, not all. Sure life is easier (in some respects) being beautiful (not that I would know). People appreciate different forms of beauty. What you see as beautiful may not be the same as me or others here. I happen to find beauty in everything and everyone. Even people not considered attractive by "societal norms" because it is more than looks. Sure looks can open some doors, just as power and money can open others.
You seem to be obsessing with the far end of the spectrum for your masculine/feminine ideals. Sure for me I want to look pretty and I love make-up. And who doesn't love puppies (or Kitties)? But I also love Hockey, Knives, Comics and Action movies. Masculine and feminine perceptions blur into what makes a person who they are. We are individuals. Which is why I state "some" I will not say all or most because I don't know them. Some seems reasonable.
If you want cis male comparisons my little brother loves Sports. He is a typical "jock" former college athlete. He loves working out. Doesn't care about fancy cars or watches. He loves puppies and romantic comedies and nice smells (Lotions and Candles), he would look at that tumblr page and go "Meh... ok"
Life is a buffet. You can't look at the "male" line and the "female" line and say "Men have to take everything from this line but nothing from the female line. And the same for women we don't need to take everything from the female line. We are allowed to pick what we want from every available option. That is why life is amazing. We aren't clones or carbon copies. We make choices and live our lives picking up little pieces from everywhere.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 10:47:33 AM
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.msg1441834.html#msg1441834
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F29bmgg.jpg&hash=0480c1e2a15c852f669ed0fd92746431cf4c55f6)
You really can't see why you stirred up a hornets nest? Let's put it this way you've been very condescending with the posts you've made on this thread.
Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
Really?? Of all the males you know, how many are very caring? How many are the knuckle-dragging, booty-oogling, TimAllen-tool-time-grunting, football/basketball/baseball/hockey-loving hardware freaks?
My father first of all! My best friend for the past 15 years makes two my uncles. Do I need to list more?
That's three of how many, percentage-wise? Of the number of cis males I know in my life,
family, friends and coworkers.. three wouldn't even register a number.. Airplanes, boats, cars, bikes, houses, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th wives.. -most- and by most, I mean 60-70% or more, fall into this category. If they don't have them, they want them.
Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
Really?? Of all the males you know, how many are very caring? How many are the knuckle-dragging, booty-oogling, TimAllen-tool-time-grunting, football/basketball/baseball/hockey-loving hardware freaks?
Was this supposed to be sarcastic? Lack of emoticons makes it hard to read. The people I know are ALL a real mix of traits. The only really into-it-for-the-blood hockey fans I know are cis-female. The first cis-male friend I think of that would sort of fit in with Tim Allen tool time IS at the same time very caring and sensitive.
Quote from: Hayley on June 04, 2014, 11:02:00 AM
Life is a buffet. You can't look at the "male" line and the "female" line and say "Men have to take everything from this line but nothing from the female line. And the same for women we don't need to take everything from the female line. We are allowed to pick what we want from every available option. That is why life is amazing. We aren't clones or carbon copies. We make choices and live our lives picking up little pieces from everywhere.
This ^^^ Agree 100%
Erin
Evelyn is touching on something however, and it's actually a rather large hang up for me. I've had the chance to taste that life, and damn is it fun.
It's one thing to transition when you're young or miserable, but risking losing a successful upper class white male lifestyle will give anyone pause.
No, it was not sarcastic. The difference also, is in the age brackets of those here. I have no idea what ages are of the posters, .. I'm mid 50's, and travel... A LOT, and likely know, or have met more than someone in their 20's, 30's, or even 40's.... (I don't mean this badly, but Julie would understand that). Generationally, how you grew up.. how you were raised, what you were exposed to determine what is important in wants, needs and desires.
And also culturally.
British men tend to lean more towards the caring side, and less towards the Tim Taylor side. They're also much more subtle with their booty-ogling. And of course, we have lower expectations when it comes to things like boats and aeroplanes. ;)
Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 11:30:33 AM
No, it was not sarcastic. The difference also, is in the age brackets of those here. I have no idea what ages are of the posters, .. I'm mid 50's, and travel... A LOT, and likely know, or have met more than someone in their 20's, 30's, or even 40's.... (I don't mean this badly, but Julie would understand that). Generationally, how you grew up.. how you were raised, what you were exposed to determine what is important in wants, needs and desires.
I am 61. Just saying that makes me feel OLD. I don't really have the "male" desires this thread is pointing out. That is probably because I am trans* and my female side doesn't care. I have all sorts of social contacts from those under 10 years old to those over 90, both cis-male and cis-female with a couple FtM trans to add perspective. Again, I see a total mix of personalities and interests. Maybe my world is just different...
Erin
Quote from: ErinWDK on June 04, 2014, 11:45:27 AM
I am 61. Just saying that makes me feel OLD. I don't really have the "male" desires this thread is pointing out. That is probably because I am trans* and my female side doesn't care. I have all sorts of social contacts from those under 10 years old to those over 90, both cis-male and cis-female with a couple FtM trans to add perspective. Again, I see a total mix of personalities and interests. Maybe my world is just different...
Erin
Everybody's world is different, these kinds of problems only crop up when, somebody says their world is the same as another persons, We all live on the same planet but for every set of eyes a different world is seen.
Its like this, calling something a woman enjoys to do manly, because it is dominated by men, takes away from her femininity.
Calling something a man likes feminine because its associated with girls de masculinises them.
And its this feeling of manliness femininity discrediting that's causing this whole mess.
Gender is possession, so when somebody does or says something to marginalise your femininity or masculinity your feeling are bound to be rubbed the wrong way.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 04, 2014, 11:38:47 AM
And also culturally.
British men tend to lean more towards the caring side, and less towards the Tim Taylor side. They're also much more subtle with their booty-ogling. And of course, we have lower expectations when it comes to things like boats and aeroplanes. ;)
Those of us in "the colones" then, are cruder, crass-er, much less stuffed-shirt. Maybe if we drank the tea instead of dumping it in the harbor... ;)
It still goes to upbringing. Those in the US have much more exposure to, and therefore, more opportunity to want, find, afford and buy a Mustang, Shovelhead, Cirrus, Brietling, or Rolex... Shallow? Yes. Limited to small group, not hardly. I have lived all across the US, from Washington, DC, to the desert Southwest. There are areas here where the guys truck is worth more than their house, contents included. Where their bling alone, if sold, could send a kid to college. Is it right? Of course not. Is it nationwide? Yes. Is it going to change? No, at least, not here.
Could the be said for a collection of shoes, handbags, jewelry or clothes? Absolutely. But I'm just discovering that part. Ask me again after a couple yrs of E would I want, or drool, over Señor Escobars pix.
Yuck! Could really not care less about this stuff, and Tumblr is the arm pit of the net (with a few worthy exceptions).
These are stereotypical male images, though I would suppose that many cis guys would not get into them either. I don't feel the necessity to buy into various male stereotypes and can be intentional about who I am. It is one of the advantages of being trans and being able to think about it. I actually do NOT think this is the meaning (necessarily) of male privilege btw, unless you are speaking of the supposed privilege of objectifying women. This "privilege" is not one which I am interested in promoting. (I'm an older guy FWIW. Tumblr tends to be a "young thing".)
--Jay
Jay, again... It -is- different, being non-cis. The same could be said for not wanting to watch Say Yes To The Dress. It just isn't in me... yet... maybe, idk
Quote from: ButterflyVickster on June 04, 2014, 12:00:55 PM
Its like this, calling something a woman enjoys to do manly, because it is dominated by men, takes away from her femininity.
Calling something a man likes feminine because its associated with girls de masculinises them.
And its this feeling of manliness femininity discrediting that's causing this whole mess.
Gender is possession, so when somebody does or says something to marginalise your femininity or masculinity your feeling are bound to be rubbed the wrong way.
Something I never really understood, maybe because I don't really feel any sense of masculinity or femininity, I just am me. Just because someone, somewhere, sometime in the past decided that men should do this and women should do that, why should I care? The only reason I can see for the gendering of interests, activities, roles, etc is as a setup for forcing people into doing things, for taking away their freedom to just be human.
So being a programmer, interested in maths, robotics, AI, physics, science in general and more, things which are generally seen as being more 'male' associated, does not take anything, at all, away from me as a woman. Neither does being interested in more 'female' things like drawing or painting or whatever add anything. My gender is independent of all these things. But they all add something to me as a person, as a human regardless of gender/sex.
Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 11:12:07 AM
That's three of how many, percentage-wise? Of the number of cis males I know in my life,
family, friends and coworkers.. three wouldn't even register a number.. Airplanes, boats, cars, bikes, houses, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th wives.. -most- and by most, I mean 60-70% or more, fall into this category. If they don't have them, they want them.
I don't care about percentages I care about people. But I've noticed this attitude with trans women that somehow if you bash males it makes you more of a female. I'm here to tell you it don't! I had a discussion with a friend yesterday at work about what it was like to be a parent. And what he told me was the most sweetest most caring thing about the love he felt for his son. And you know what he likes sports but guess what he's a devoted husband and father. Are all men perfect? God no but neither are women but you should judge a person by the way they live they're life not by they're gender. And btw if 60-70% of the men you know act like this it's time to get a new group of friends. Or maybe you should ask yourself what about you attracts these sorts of men? Because I can tell you flat out I have no use for shallow men or women in my life. ;)
Hmm. Having read the majority of this thread, something occurs to me. Some people accrue things because they think it defines them. Be that wealth, power, material possessions, whatever the case may be. For some people it's a way to show maybe the world, but moreso themselves who they are. A means of looking for something within themselves that the trappings they surround themselves with are merely a byproduct of. A method of addressing insecurity perhaps. Or a way of avoiding having to ask themselves questions about themselves and their lives. Perhaps a need to fit in. Or a way to somehow prove they "have what it takes".
During my time in the Navy, I saw a lot of that. From both men and women. As soon as they had, maybe for the first time, got some money behind them... disposable income, they started to buy things, and attempt to buy people. Why? Who knows. I do know that one lass who blew a huge chunk of change on a new car, that she barely ever even got to see, did it because it was the only way to prove to herself that she was good enough. Because growing up her family was very poor. Barely made ends meet most weeks, and some they didn't. She was the first person in her family to ever really do anything with her life (according to her). And that was her way to prove to them, and everyone who ever made fun of her, that she could have something expensive and flashy to call her own. It was her way to look at the car and know that even if she never drove it, she'd got to a place where she could have something like that. And it made her feel good about herself.
All these things are often means by which one attempts to get society to see one as who they want to be seen as. An external validation of who someone wants to be. A need to prove oneself. To do what others do and impress in order to gain a boost in self-esteem. I don't find it so hard to see why some, most, or even all guys here don't automatically want the same things. Or elsewhere in the world for that matter. When it isn't drilled into you that you have to have all these things in order to be someone. When you come from an upbringing where emphasis is placed on who you are, not what you have. Or when you come from a place inside yourself that's taken sometimes years of pain, heartache, soul-searching and understanding to arrive at who you are... well, these symbols lose a lot of their symbolism. For some people, life just isn't a competition. A need to have the biggest and best. And that has nothing to do with gender. More a state of mind. If you have it you have it, if you don't you don't. You do what you feel you need to do to live your life how you want to live it. As a man, or a woman, or a non-binary. And whatever that is, more power to you. :)
I've talked to PEOPLE who think they have to have expensive things in order to be someone in the world. They look down on people who have more practical tastes and only spend what they must in order to have a comfortable life despite a large bank account. It's always a good mix of both genders.
I just bought a very practical car. It only has 160 hp. It gets 40 mpg. I can cram three dogs, camping gear, and a friend inside.
If I had the desire to offend the women here, I'd find a bunch of those 'homemaking' blogs where women gush about the cookies they made and how they helped their 10 children make a scrapbook and post it to the women's section. I'm not particularly offended by the blog, but it is kind of uncomfortable that there's an agenda behind it with blatantly biased questions from the OP.
QuoteI don't care about percentages I care about people. But I've noticed this attitude with trans women that somehow if you bash males it makes you more of a female.
Thank you. I could rattle off some percentages of trans women who seem to have a vendetta against men of any ilk, but I remind myself that people are people and we all have our opinions.
QuoteIts like this, calling something a woman enjoys to do manly, because it is dominated by men, takes away from her femininity.
Calling something a man likes feminine because its associated with girls de masculinises them.
It's my choice to allow people to take away my 'masculinity'. What's really wrong with society is that so many people are caught up in the 'lets be politically correct and sensitive to everything all the time every day no matter way' bandwagon. It's amazing how easy life can be when you don't care what random people think of you. As long as I'm not hurting the ones I care about, and maintaining a professional face at work, who the f cares if some woman gets offended that I did or did not hold the door open for her at 7/11 or some man thinks I'm a '->-bleeped-<-' and endangering his marriage because I'm holding hands with my husband.
:police:
This thread is going nowhere good - and BTW, telling trans men they sound like women is definitely uncool and highly offensive.