Over the past going on 4 months now since I started transitioning, I've began to notice a pattern. When out in public to strangers I'm noticing I'm getting clocked and misgendered more so by women than men. To the contrary, males have actually been normally the only ones who gendered me correctly.
Anyone else notice something similar to this or have had this experience?
I find that interesting... as it is usually women who gender me correctly, and men who need not do more than stare rudely to know they are clocking me. Women for the most part treat me as another female, while men for the most part give me this "shoot it before it breeds" look >_<
Ive only noticed that women stare at me more
I went through a period where I got stared at by guys a lot; then it switched to getting stared at by women a lot. Now no one seems to take notice of me - I have no idea why all of the staring started and then stopped a few months later. I'm in month 9 of HRT.
Same here, Hex. When I get misgendered it's almost always by women. The few times men have misgendered me since I started going male full-time, it's been when I'm out with my partner and he's opening the door or something. I think it may be because guys are more likely to assume that I'm just a boyish girl than that we're gay guys, but it's just a theory.
Overall though, women are definitely the ones I've found scrutinizing me to figure out my gender even though it's obvious that I want to be seen as male. Guys don't really seem to care and (in my experience) are more likely to go with whatever your presentation is even if they're not sure, whereas women are more likely to play gender detective. Judging from this thread, it seems like it's usually the opposite for women, though. /:
I'm pretty sure men started gendering me correctly before women did. The first passes I can remember are people saying stuff like "man", "hey buddy." I'm not entirely sure what it is.
I also noticed, that women are more likely to clock a transperson and I think it is because women in general tend to pay more attention to details and have better vision too. Also, they usually are more polite and even if they've clocked you, probably wouldn't tell you, because of compassion and/or understanding, while men don't care that much about other's feelings, especially about "weirdos"...
Not sure if it is all true, but it is the only logical explanation I could find :)
I noticed that men started gendering me correctly much sooner than women did... but as for stares and clocking, I don't really know.
I don't pay attention to women when I'm out in public, because I'm generally eyeing up all the guys. ;D So if women were clocking me, I probably wouldn't notice (or, frankly, care), but I would notice if some guy clocked me, and I'd feel hurt and invalidated because of it. That used to happen quite often when I was in that awkward intermediate stage between starting my transition and T taking effect properly, but thankfully it is much less common now.
I haven't really kept stats on it but I notice I get a mixed reactions from both men and women, I just be myself and try not to worry on it too much
DEFINITELY. Right now, I am being read as male about 98% of the time and most of the people who misgender me are women. I think women may be reading little cues more so than than males.
--Jay
I only get misgendered on the phone these days. Twice yesterday. Ma'am by one guy, and then today when I saw him in person he said he spoke to my wife yesterday.. uh, no that was me. And the other one was Oh, I see we have that account under the name Jay. Should we add yours, too? Uh, *I* am Jay... Thank you and have a nice day! And she hung up, no apology. Sigh.
I don't know who clocks me more, but cisguys have always been the ones to be a*holes about it. Do I threaten you by simply existing? Do I make you question something? I don't get it.
As long as you don't want to beat me, rape me or dispose of me in a ditch, it really makes no difference to me at the end of the day.
Um, I don't even know if I should say this, but, really, women treat me great. I talk to women all the time now at completely random times about completely random things, usually female type stuff: being preggers, men, kids or just whatever. Men, uh, well last night I walked to get Chinese and some dude asked if he could come back to my place and fu^k me. I told him yeah, my BF would love that. He wouldn't. But most men are nice.
This is really interesting to me, when I think about it. When I was first starting out, it was usually (though not always) guys who misgendered me. But now that I'm a few years into my transition, I'm finding that I actually pass more often with guys. They guys I've dated are often surprised when I tell them about my situation, I've been flirted with before, you know-classic objectifying behavior that can only mean one thing: Yay, passing!
With girls, it's always different...I've had more than one cis female friend mention my gender in conversation. When dating, female-assigned people clock me immediately-though I'm not sure if that's because they're female or because they're queer. Even though they're generally more understanding about things, it irks me how often other gals can tell!
Hmm, yeah, I haven't experienced being clocked before but when living as a cis boy I was almost always mistaken for a girl by guys, women only mistook me for a girl back then if i had my hair up. I think women have a lot more trained eyes when it comes to appearance, plus men tend to be kinda aloof and may not even take a food look at people
To follow up more previous post, I still don't get clocked but I did get clocked in the head a couple dozen times. See, people worry about clocking but that's just stares and sticks and stones and all, but for me, when my BF's roommate got jealous or whatever cause men liked me, and she told people I told her not to tell cause of what the repercussions could be, she did anyway and I almost died.
People think passing is all rainbows and butteflies, but when peeps from where I used to live, moved out for good yesterday from North Philadelphia at 20th and Susquehanna (Google street view it and you'll see how bad it is). My BF and I went back to out parents to regroup.
But back to the point, these guys were attracted to me and when they found out I was not FAAB, they tried to kill me. They beat me within an inch of my life. I awoke in an ambulance, clinging to life. Sometimes I think if I din't have my hormones on me, maybe they wouldn't have done it, but when they ripped that out of my purse, they were like bingo, threw the a 3 month's supply everywhere, leaving me hormoneless ('cept for the kindness of a Susan's member who helped me get by next month), the beat down began. I remember nothing after the first punch. My head exploded blood like a coconut. I have very delicate bones.
So, remember kids, passing is good, but if you pass, and live in a bad neighborhood, if you get found out, you die.
And if you live in a bad neighborhood, and you don't pass, and you walk down the street, you die. Check your privilege, Joanna.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 04, 2014, 02:45:52 PM
And if you live in a bad neighborhood, and you don't pass, and you walk down the street, you die. Check your privilege, Joanna.
Sorry, I don't consider being beaten to near death and left for dead because your dirt poor privilege. Yeah, maybe I pass well, though I'm far from pretty, though others may say I am, but I don't like how I am supposed to have no problems because of it and "check my privilege." Not picking on you but waking up in an ambulance is hardly privileged.
You also don't know, though how could you, I tried hard to be a boy, but was never allowed to play boys sports, hardly even allowed in the boys locker room, got picked on my whole life for looking too femme and having a too high voice, never virilizing, and barely having been able to have sex without the use of drugs.
Is that privilege? I'm practically, actually genetically, FAAB, but with a penis. This is not privilege. If I didn't pass, nobody would have cared, cause they wouldn't have been attracted to me. it's what mny BF said: if you didn't turn them on the way you did, if they didn't always hug you and try to cop a feel, this would not have happened. It sucks when something you have no control over puts you on the outskirts of the trans community, leaving you completely alone. The only people who have ever really accepted me with open arms are lesbians, but I like men, though I guess I could go the other way. I did once but ended up in an addiction cause my heart was broken so bad.
Yes, I'm being perfectly serious here, and talking about passing as if it's such a bad thing is a little insulting to those us who don't have that luxury-it's not meant to be disrespectful, just a way of pointing that out. First of all, you are not the only one who's been beaten that badly, you aren't the only person who faces rejection on account of their body, and you aren't at all the only one here who tried so hard to live as male and simply couldn't (even if it was for a slightly different reason for me). I'm sorry that you've had to struggle like this, and I'm not saying that those struggles aren't valid, but you cannot deny that passing gives you a distinct advantage (or privlage) in a society that hates transgender people with a passion.
You may face rejection when you disclose, and I am so sorry about that, but some of us can't find anyone at all since our transition-I haven't been on a date let alone actually had a relationship in two and a half years, and that isolation is unbearable for me. I can't walk down the street without being stared at, and insulted on account of the way I look. I've been fired from more than one place that didn't want to have a trans woman on their staff. You are facing many obstacles, and that's really horrible. I'm just trying to tell you that even with all of those obstacles in your way, you have a huge privilege: You don't need to automatically disclose something very personal about yourself to a world that stigmatizes people like us. You have the privilege of privacy. I don't want to start a flame war here, and I really do respect what you've been through, and I've faced more than one of the things you describe myself. Passing would without a doubt remove so many hardships from my life, and I just want you to understand how fortunate you are in that respect-even if there are many drawbacks to your experience as well.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 04, 2014, 07:06:30 PM
First of all, you are not the only one who's been beaten that badly, you aren't the only person who faces rejection on account of their body, and you aren't at all the only one here who tried so hard to live as male and simply couldn't (even if it was for a slightly different reason for me). I'm sorry that you've had to struggle like this, and I'm not saying that those struggles aren't valid, but you cannot deny that passing gives you a distinct advantage (or privlage) in a society that hates transgender people with a passion.
If a woman passes for being cisgender and men who have an issue with transgender women are attracted to her, that's a potentially dangerous situation if they find out. If a dangerous man does not find a transgender woman attractive because she doesn't look cisgender, he is less likely to react with violence. One of the major issues transphobic men have with transgender women is "being tricked," as they put it, and when they "feel tricked," some lash out.
I think Anrogynouspainter makes a reasonable point - there are different levels of passing and, unless one happens to be indistinguishable as cis female on all levels, there are different risks in being read/found out... (and, of course, if one passes as cis female then there are other risks of violence which are perpetuated against women generally :-/ )
I would like to remind people to stay on topic though! :police:
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 04, 2014, 07:06:30 PM
You may face rejection when you disclose, and I am so sorry about that, but some of us can't find anyone at all since our transition-I haven't been on a date let alone actually had a relationship in two and a half years, and that isolation is unbearable for me. I can't walk down the street without being stared at, and insulted on account of the way I look. I've been fired from more than one place that didn't want to have a trans woman on their staff. ... Passing would without a doubt remove so many hardships from my life, and I just want you to understand how fortunate you are in that respect-even if there are many drawbacks to your experience as well.
Point taken. I'm sorry your life has been this way. Maybe I should think harder about being able to pass and blend and never be stared at and being able to have relationships with men (or women) without having to disclose and choosing when too. I did not see it that way. Maybe I have been feeling sorry for myself, but in any event, your make valid points and you were right to point them out.
Um, I'm going to not comment on a lot of what has been said. I intend no disrespect.
To the first question, I get clocked by women way more than I do by men. I am read as male almost always, but when I'm not it's usually lesbians of any age or very young women of any sexual or gender orientation. When I am clocked by men, it usually seems to be other transmen.
I went out in many places around the world, and always are girls who first stare, then get interested on guessing like if they have a personal bet, and you know perfectly when someone get you clocked.
the feeling is not the feeling we want to get we, must of the time get maybe shy , upset or unsecure.
one day i got this chinese girl taking hiden pictures of me with her phone, trying to get all my look specially my legs.
is not the right feeling.
in other times i used to go out with lesbian groups and they were very understanding seeing a straigh guy all crossdressed and wearing very sexy,....the girls i used to hang out with were sexy lesbian girls bvery girly and not the kind that are too malish, i find them very understanding and fun.
i lived in europe asia and usa and everywhere ladies are first ones to examine you form head to toe.
Androgynous painter, where do you live? US? I just found out recently that in (I believe) 35 states, an employer has a legal right to fire a transgender person if he wants to, I find it astounding and absolutely vile!
There's a place where people don't have the right to fire us for being trans? That's big news to me.
I'm stateside, yes, though not in one without "protections" for us wrt employment. That being said, it still happens all the time (happened to me personally a month ago, in fact!) and since nobody can afford to file a lawsuit, things usually just happen and that's that-also, legal protection hasn't helped in the slightest, because it's very easy for an employer to list another reason. Ahh, the joys of being a trans woman sans FFS. Sorry to the mods if this is getting too off topic!
I feel for You... That's horrible and makes me sad, however, I believe that we as a society grow day by day and one day, You'll find peace. Input of people like you is extremely important, thanks for your voice!
This happens to me all the time.
Most women - 95% of them mis-gender me.
Men - 10% of them mis-gender me. I normally get called 'mate' 'buddy' 'gentleman' 'young man' by guys of all ages...then women tend to get it wrong - you ladies are too smart and notice everything too much! Stop it ;D
Oh god yeah. Women are almost always the ones who misgender me- I managed to go stealth through an entire summer school session (the longest I've gone so far!) really recently and the only person who managed to clock me was a girl. Luckily, I had a lot of friends who were other guys and they were all really confused by her, so she dropped it but... yeah. Yeah. Almost always girls.
sloexander, glad it worked out good for, great to have guys there that stood up for you and she backed off. Women can pay attention to more details and start questioning what is going on. I transitioned in here at college so many know my history. I have wonder several times what it would be like to be stealth on campus. You must pass very well. Are you started t?
I just don't know anymore, I think even the ducks at the nearby pond would misgender me if they wanted to
Then again I base this all on looks I get from people, I hardly ever get called sir/mam by anyone
I guess the word "Con...confusing" runs around in people their minds when they see me
PS:Yes, had a pretty anxious day again
Quote from: mm on July 23, 2014, 08:54:21 PM
sloexander, glad it worked out good for, great to have guys there that stood up for you and she backed off. Women can pay attention to more details and start questioning what is going on. I transitioned in here at college so many know my history. I have wonder several times what it would be like to be stealth on campus. You must pass very well. Are you started t?
Heh, I'm not totally stealth at school usually, it was just a class with slightly younger folks than I was used to so nobody knew me.
Yeah! I'm actually just 4 months on t though, 3 months at the time of taking the summer class I did. Yeah, it was really cool having people there who didn't even know I was trans but were still willing to help me out there.
Even tho I am MTF I feel the same way. I feel like men don't get into things/features as much as women do. Although being MTF, being clocked by women is usually not that bad. They usually say stupid things like "work it girl" "fierce" etc which is an instant clock.
I've been misgendered by women twice. Men, never.
It's kind of confusing, because men are almost always the ones who stare, but they never say anything to me, and almost always treat me like a woman, where usually one of the very first things that I hear when I meet some new woman is "wow, you're tall!" And there tends to be a bit of standoffishness from them. I'm not sure what that says about gender norms or whatever, but that's the experience I have.
I get the tall comment all the time. (Being 6'7") However, usually it's in a complementary way. Often they will say, "I wish I had some of you height!"
I had another tall woman ask me about shoe size. (She was about 6'5 and cis.) She asked me where I get my shoes from as she has had hard time finding shoes. She was a size larger than me. We talked for a while and gave each other some good information and advice. I don't think she clocked me at all as we were talking about being the tallest girl in high school and finding a date. I did tell her I was a lesbian, but that didn't phase her at all.
I've also heard many transwomen say that the only women that clock them are African-American woman. So far I haven't witnessed that with myself. However when I first went full-time and was getting clocked on occasion it seemed Eastern Indian women would clock me most often. Not anymore thankfully :)
"clocked"? Never heard that term before. But It's kinda mixed for me. I'm sure it has a lot to do with how you act around people, and if that specific gendered person finds your actions as a reflection of theirs or not n that's how they discern your gender. It's all internal and happens within seconds, but,
f, idk, man don't overthink it, just do you lol.
could it be that mtf transition does not result in a passable presentation. appearance, voice, so forth.
pretty much anyone can figure out that a mtf use to be a man. man or woman.
could it also be that people stereotype that women as being more observant and men being dumb? who knows :laugh:
Quote from: hardlife on August 10, 2014, 07:01:00 PM
could it be that mtf transition does not result in a passable presentation. appearance, voice, so forth.
pretty much anyone can figure out that a mtf use to be a man. man or woman.
No.
Many MTF women are passable, however it is fair to say that FTM's have some advantages in terms of voice and coarser skin and facial hair.
Women might be better at "clocking" trans folk, but they also seem to be more supportive and tolerant of trans-folk than men.
I get clocked by women more but I don't think it's intelligence based. I think women just look more. It's more acceptable for women to observe people than it is for a man to do so. He's called a pervert if he looks too long.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on August 04, 2014, 11:51:14 PM
I've also heard many transwomen say that the only women that clock them are African-American woman. So far I haven't witnessed that with myself. However when I first went full-time and was getting clocked on occasion it seemed Eastern Indian women would clock me most often. Not anymore thankfully :)
Interesting, my friend was telling me that two African-American women clocked her recently, when generally she doesn't seem to have this issue.
If I get clocked it has historically been by gay men and lesbians, but that hasn't happened as far as I know lately.
I think children clock me pretty often.....which means adults do too
*sobs*
Great Topic.
I would say that most men are the ones who clock me first, or at least make a point of letting me know(BTW, that's a good sign that at least your being noticed... LOL). Women, who tend to be nicer to me, either don't clock me or just don't say anything.
Now, without going off-topic or sounding inflammatory, I think all trans men and women should just be prepared for being clocked or mis-gendered once in a while and not take it so personal; however, I am not saying we should eat people's verbal-excrement either, choose your battles.
In the long run we are not fooling anyone... in 500 years, if our bones were dug-up what gender would an anthropologist say we were? Yes, at a minimum, our pelvis will give us away each time....
< Hugs >
Quote from: Bea on August 13, 2014, 03:25:46 PM
Great Topic.
I would say that most men are the ones who clock me first, or at least make a point of letting me know(BTW, that's a good sign that at least your being noticed... LOL). Women, who tend to be nicer to me, either don't clock me or just don't say anything.
Now, without going off-topic or sounding inflammatory, I think all trans men and women should just be prepared for being clocked or mis-gendered once in a while and not take it so personal; however, I am not saying we should eat people's verbal-excrement either, choose your battles.
In the long run we are not fooling anyone... in 500 years, if our bones were dug-up what gender would an anthropologist say we were? Yes, at a minimum, our pelvis will give us away each time....
< Hugs >
No, I dont want to be buried...shoot my ash into space, because that's the place I belong ;)
Quote from: Ayden on August 11, 2014, 04:24:33 PM
I get clocked by women more but I don't think it's intelligence based. I think women just look more. It's more acceptable for women to observe people than it is for a man to do so. He's called a pervert if he looks too long.
I don't use the term "clocked". Not trying to be "word policing" about this, but I feel that I am *misgendered* as female. This puts the other person as "who is doing this" and not "finding me out". If you get my drift. I am misgendered more by women. i agree with Ayden. I think women are more observant. They are also used to looking at cues like this as a self protective mechanism. So women are trying to protect themselves from harm and anything out of the ordinary.
---Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on August 19, 2014, 01:27:16 PM
I don't use the term "clocked". Not trying to be "word policing" about this, but I feel that I am *misgendered* as female. This puts the other person as "who is doing this" and not "finding me out". If you get my drift. I am misgendered more by women.
Could not figure out why this term bugged me so much, but you hit the nail on the head.
Also, as for the suggestion hardlife made, I honestly don't think that's the case at all. It could be observer bias, but I know far too many ladies who pass 100% to think that.