If there is a genetic and biological basis for gender, doesn't that mean sex and gender is in reality the same thing and that the separation of the terms are simply left overs from the days of science thinking gender is purely psychological?
No, or there wouldn't be gender dysphoria in the first place. The physical aspects and the mental aspects aren't the same are are as different as your nose compared to your toes. All of which are controlled by your genes.
The dysphoria is caused by a biological mismatch tho, female brain male body for example. Every aspect of you has a mental side.
The conclusion science seems to be reaching is that your collection of genes seem to determine your variance of gender/sex, gender seems to be used as well for the mental side of everything, for the biological side of what is considered gender in the brain and genes.
I don't really know if there is a genetic basis, but there could be a biological basis for it. Prenatal hormonal exposure, the brain developing as one gender but the genetics dictating what gender your body is or will be. I also believe that it just may be the way different brains develope from the mother's diet, to vitamins, to hormonal conditions and so on. I guess a genetic condition could probably be being born intersex or with both sets of genetals. I do believe it is a psychological thing too.
As for GID, if we had a society that was accepting of all gender variances and allowed free expression of whatever psychological gender we are, would we even have dysphoria over being trans? Yeah there would be some severe cases but if a M2F or F2M could totally embrace themselves and totally express themselves and society accepted us as our preferred gender, would we still have the problems we do within in the community and GID?
Jess, a study in 2008 showed some potential genetic ties that could cause mtf and ftm, thats what i refer to when i mention genetics
Quote from: Jess42 on June 06, 2014, 02:18:28 PM
As for GID, if we had a society that was accepting of all gender variances and allowed free expression of whatever psychological gender we are, would we even have dysphoria over being trans?
I live in that society right now. I'm still transgender. In fact, there are many more of us here than in areas where expression is stifled. Because our society is so focused on acceptance, we're free to live the lives we want, so there's less hesitation to transition. There are still some crappy people here, but they're few and far between. So living in that society actually seems to
encourage transition as opposed to having the opposite effect.
Quote from: Declan. on June 06, 2014, 03:36:25 PM
I live in that society right now. I'm still transgender. In fact, there are many more of us here than in areas where expression is stifled. Because our society is so focused on acceptance, we're free to live the lives we want, so there's less hesitation to transition. There are still some crappy people here, but they're few and far between. So living in that society actually seems to encourage transition as opposed to having the opposite effect.
Well, hush my mouth. :) Yeah it would make sense that it may be a physical thing instead of just a psychological effect.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 06, 2014, 02:33:29 PM
Jess, a study in 2008 showed some potential genetic ties that could cause mtf and ftm, thats what i refer to when i mention genetics
That is interesting. What are some of the potential genetic ties? Is it like mutated genes or certain genes that the parents have that are maybe dormant but line up just right to cause a person to be transgender? Kind of like two dark eyed parents can have a blue eyed child if the genes line up just right.
i just use the term "my X lost a leg" due to the bad choices my mother made during my development. i have all female traits but yet my hormones got mixed becuz of the alcohol and drug use my mother was doing.
Quote from: Jess42 on June 06, 2014, 03:51:35 PM
That is interesting. What are some of the potential genetic ties? Is it like mutated genes or certain genes that the parents have that are maybe dormant but line up just right to cause a person to be transgender? Kind of like two dark eyed parents can have a blue eyed child if the genes line up just right.
For MTF the androgen receptor (AR) gene was more likely to be longer, making male sex hormones less effective and therefore not masculinizing the brain
"The gene—which is known to make circulating testosterone less effective at signaling, circulating, and just generally doing its thing—turned out to be longer in transsexuals. Less-potent testosterone could, in turn, affect the development of the brain in the womb"
theres a similar gene with something like this found in FTM's as well
I saw a scientist in a video reference that identical twins are more likely to both be trans than non identical and that a study showed this, although i haven't seen the research papers regarding that study
Quote from: Olivia P on June 06, 2014, 04:12:38 PM
For MTF the androgen receptor (AR) gene was more likely to be longer, making male sex hormones less effective and therefore not masculinizing the brain
"The gene—which is known to make circulating testosterone less effective at signaling, circulating, and just generally doing its thing—turned out to be longer in transsexuals. Less-potent testosterone could, in turn, affect the development of the brain in the womb"
theres a similar gene with something like this found in FTM's as well
I saw a scientist in a video reference that identical twins are more likely to both be trans than non identical and that a study showed this, although i haven't seen the research papers regarding that study
That is extremely interesting, now if society could see being transgender is just as normal as any other genetic traits.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 06, 2014, 04:12:38 PM
I saw a scientist in a video reference that identical twins are more likely to both be trans than non identical and that a study showed this, although i haven't seen the research papers regarding that study
This is an interesting discussion, and I am delighted to finally have the opportunity to contribute. Please keep in mind that my opinion is simply that, an opinion.
If being trans was purely genetic, then expression in identical twins should be higher than, for lack of a better term, "more likely". We would also see more parent/child and sibling expression. I have read cases of this, but does not appear to be very common. I do think there is a genetic predisposition to being trans, and Olivia P. has provided a good reference, among others, that indicate this predisposition. From what I have read, environmental factors also play a significant role.
From a biological basis, literature I have read suggest brain development issues in the womb. Research also indicates that our brains are structurally differently from what is typical of our gender although I still read conflicting evidence of this.
Once I was able to get past the hardship that goes with acceptance, I find that being trans is fascinating, and I am learning about myself everyday. I have been on low dose HRT for three months, and I am taking notes and measurements routinely. Regardless of which gender I express in the future, I will always be a science nut. ;D
Quote from: Jess42 on June 07, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
That is extremely interesting, now if society could see being transgender is just as normal as any other genetic traits.
I agree. We are uncommon, but very normal in that there is a logical explanation for how we feel. It simply takes education for those willing to learn.
I have been wanting to read up on this subject more and have come across some things here and there. Like people have posted exposures to certain things in the womb seem to be very connected.
http://www.tftptf.com (http://www.tftptf.com) hopefully the link works to the article about the chemicals in the water. My mother lived there during pregnancy and 2 years after I was born. Some of those chemicals, have evidence of being EDCs. Does anyone have any more info on where to look this type of thing up?
Quote from: Michaela Whimsy on June 13, 2014, 09:46:14 PM
I have been wanting to read up on this subject more and have come across some things here and there. Like people have posted exposures to certain things in the womb seem to be very connected.
http://www.tftptf.com (http://www.tftptf.com) hopefully the link works to the article about the chemicals in the water. My mother lived there during pregnancy and 2 years after I was born. Some of those chemicals, have evidence of being EDCs. Does anyone have any more info on where to look this type of thing up?
Hi Michaela,
Google Scholar is a good public resource and is a good place to start. You may find helpful resources. However, some resources may be too technical. One useful feature is on the right hand side there are often links to PDF versions of reports versus a reporting of just an abstract.
http://scholar.google.com
Julia
I had no idea Google had that function. Thank you. Funny that the first time I see your name on a post here it is in a discussion where a lot of the info on the subject IS stochastic. I like your name.
Quote from: Michaela Whimsy on June 13, 2014, 10:07:11 PM
I had no idea Google had that function. Thank you. Funny that the first time I see your name on a post here it is in a discussion where a lot of the info on the subject IS stochastic. I like your name.
So sweet! You really made my day! I hope you find the information that you are searching for.
well, if genetics are the case, then god defo made us trans. lol
so can I be allowed to separate trans and dysphoria?
meaning that trans is genetics, and dysphoria the affect?
Quote from: ButterflyVickster on June 15, 2014, 08:28:19 PM
so can I be allowed to separate trans and dysphoria?
meaning that trans is genetics, and dysphoria the affect?
Very good point. That is the way I see it. Being trans is the physical condition described above, and dysphoria is how the body and mind responds to that condition. As said earlier, we are very normal in that there is a logical explanation for how we feel.
Well yes, the problem at the moment is its defined by the symptoms and the treatment, dysphoria for symptom, transition for treatment, but i guess since theres no conclusive decision on the cause or exactly what it is due to various reasons science falls back on symptoms and treatment to define it.
I don't know exactly why I'm trans. Genetics, epigenetics, DES, XXY, PAIS, THC, something in the water or demonic possession? I suppose for the sake of humankind that it would be nice to have a definitive answer as to why people experince GD, but at the end of the day it has become irrelevant to my day to day existence. I'm trans and that's the way the cookie crumbled. I could never corner my mother and grill her for answers, and she even has a doctorate in this sort of thing. As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer. I'm here, I'm me and I just need to move on and make the best out of however much time I have left. Who wants cookies?
Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
I don't know exactly why I'm trans. Genetics, epigenetics, DES, XXY, PAIS, THC, something in the water or demonic possession? I suppose for the sake of humankind that it would be nice to have a definitive answer as to why people experince GD, but at the end of the day it has become irrelevant to my day to day existence. I'm trans and that's the way the cookie crumbled. I could never corner my mother and grill her for answers, and she even has a doctorate in this sort of thing. As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer. I'm here, I'm me and I just need to move on and make the best out of however much time I have left. Who wants cookies?
Jill F
I agree. It is what it is. I am trans and the fact that I experience dysphoria is my reality. Just so long as there is a cure or treatment aka HRT (in my case low dose HRT) then all is good. Just make sure that there is the right amount of E and spiro in each cookie! I am then more than happy to transition as appropriate.
Aisla
Thing is, greater understanding of what it is, gives greater power to help others not directly affected understand, and therefore allow full equality and tolerance to be achieved
Some will never accept it even with scientifically proven conclusions. Societal conditioning and long held non tolerant views would trump anything found. Throw in the religious zealotry on the subject and I think things and prejudices would still remain in force. :)
Social and cultural pressure is the driving force that fights against those that would prefer we didn't exist, its that driving force that will make them the outcasts for having such views. The effort is worth it.
Just look at how much has changed in the last 100 years.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 18, 2014, 02:30:10 AM
The effort is worth it.
Oh I agree the effort is worth it, but for every step forward we still have situations like the Southern Baptist Resolution making the progress slower than it should be. You could show them all the scientific evidence on a big screen and they will still refuse to believe it.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 18, 2014, 02:33:06 AM
Oh I agree the effort is worth it, but for every step forward we still have situations like the Southern Baptist Resolution making the progress slower than it should be. You could show them all the scientific evidence on a big screen and they will still refuse to believe it.
Yes they may slow the progress, however their making an example of themselves that won't go down well in the future.
Similar to how bad their position on slavery made them look.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 18, 2014, 02:41:43 AM
Similar to how bad their position on slavery made them look.
Oh they don't bring that up at all! ::) I will say things are much better now than when I was a kid. Just being gay could get you run out of town, no utility service or jobs. I guarantee one thing when it starts to hit them in the tithe plate it is miraculous how many things will be accepted. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 18, 2014, 02:47:04 AM
Oh they don't bring that up at all! ::) I will say things are much better now than when I was a kid. Just being gay could get you run out of town, no utility service or jobs. I guarantee one thing when it starts to hit them in the tithe plate it is miraculous how many things will be accepted. :)
Oh Jessica, you so nailed that one. It's amazing how religious institutions can loosen up their positions on longstanding or "sacred" things when the powers that be start feeling it in the pocketbook. I spent a long time studying religion and culture, and history will always repeat itself in this fashion. It also blows my mind how Leviticus and Deuteronomy are either in play or out of play depending on the verses that are cherry picked. See, LGBT is still an abomination, but eating pork and shellfish, working on the Sabbath and wearing blended fabrics are somehow not. I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but you know you've chosen the right religion when your God hates the same people you do. Remember when black people supposedly had the "Mark of Cain" according to some fundamentalists? In the end, that wasn't so hot for the coffers either.
Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
I don't know exactly why I'm trans. Genetics, epigenetics, DES, XXY, PAIS, THC, something in the water or demonic possession? I suppose for the sake of humankind that it would be nice to have a definitive answer as to why people experince GD, but at the end of the day it has become irrelevant to my day to day existence. I'm trans and that's the way the cookie crumbled. I could never corner my mother and grill her for answers, and she even has a doctorate in this sort of thing. As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer. I'm here, I'm me and I just need to move on and make the best out of however much time I have left. Who wants cookies?
I blame demonic posession. I tried split pea soup one time and got really bad sick afterward so.... Just sayin'.
Yeah a definative answer would be nice but really I am to the point and old enough that I really don't care how people see me. Hell I really don't care how I see myself anymore. I'm just me and whatever the demon does that is controlling me, she does with my consent. ;)
Quote from: Jess42 on June 19, 2014, 07:38:24 AM
Yeah a definitive answer would be nice but really I am to the point ... that I really don't care
Agree. Consensus still eludes us re the basis of gender... while support for a genetic or biological basis would be enormously validating ... gender dysphoria exists, it causes the tg community intense anguish and we deal with it as best we can.
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on June 19, 2014, 04:36:20 PM
Agree. Consensus still eludes us re the basis of gender... while support for a genetic or biological basis would be enormously validating ... gender dysphoria exists, it causes the tg community intense anguish and we deal with it as best we can.
Aisla
What really gets me though, say there is no biological or genetic reason for it. Hypothetically say it is 100% psychological. It is curable in most cases just like schyzophrenia or major depression disorder sometimes through medication ie HRT or corrective surgery ie SRS. Why is it so taboo in society if it is nothing more than a legitimate psychological disorder? People suffering other psychological disorders don't face the persecution that we do in society and as a matter of fact they usually get quite a bit more sympathy. That is if it was purely psychological which I don't really think it is.
I personally think we scare people by threatening their own sense of self. I mean most people are this or that and the outside is like the inside and they are comfortable with it. Then we come along and our internal self may be 180 degrees different than our external self. This may lead to them questioning their own self identity on a subconscious level and make them maybe not as secure in it as they once were. And usually people lash out, belittle or laugh at what scares them the most.
What doesnt help is that in the middle ages the west kinda had events that tried to eliminate any trace of anything other from birth binary. In other places like india there is still a level of respect there, seen as sacred etc, hand out blessings. And the two spirit people of native america. Problem is the return of people openly being themselves is now challenging that established way of thinking that foolishly thinks sex and gender is xx/xy and nothing else.
There are many more cultures before modern day western that had some concept of stuff other than natal m/f, although sadly you have to dig to find out about it as the history books written by todays civilization decided to ignore it. Thats a common issue with history tho, it is written by the victors, and alot of stuff gets lost.
And sadly the middle ages are so long ago, most people dont care to make the effort to inform themselves and just accept whatever they have been told as absolute fact.
This Carl Sagan quote captures this issue very well...
Quote from: Carl Sagan"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
This article seems to be a nice summary of the past too:
QuoteOn nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. Terms such as transgender and gay are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html
This part on the indian culture shows what i mean by what the west did to eliminate the idea of anything beyond binary:
QuoteDuring the era of the British Raj, authorities attempted to eradicate hijras, whom they saw as "a breach of public decency." Also during British rule in India they were placed under the Criminal Tribes Act 1871 and labelled a "criminal tribe," hence subjected to compulsory registration, strict monitoring and stigmatized for a long time, after independence however they were decriminalized in 1952, though the stigma continues.
Sometimes the human race is indeed a sad thing. Yeah I knew about other cultures and the Native Americans.
I think Carl Sagan got it right. A lot of history has been wiped out, the Myans and their texts are a perfect example. If there writings and historical documents would not have been destroyed, maybe we could have truly understood the significance of the year 2012 instead of all the hype and speculation.
The middle ages truly were the dark ages and our real history may never be known or how many different cultures were wiped off the face of the earth.
Quote from: Jess42 on June 20, 2014, 10:40:36 AM
What really gets me though, say there is no biological or genetic reason for it. Hypothetically say it is 100% psychological. It is curable in most cases just like schyzophrenia or major depression disorder sometimes through medication ie HRT or corrective surgery ie SRS. Why is it so taboo in society if it is nothing more than a legitimate psychological disorder? People suffering other psychological disorders don't face the persecution that we do in society and as a matter of fact they usually get quite a bit more sympathy. That is if it was purely psychological which I don't really think it is.
I personally think we scare people by threatening their own sense of self. I mean most people are this or that and the outside is like the inside and they are comfortable with it. Then we come along and our internal self may be 180 degrees different than our external self. This may lead to them questioning their own self identity on a subconscious level and make them maybe not as secure in it as they once were. And usually people lash out, belittle or laugh at what scares them the most.
Jess
I do agree with you but my best understanding is that dysphoria is biopsychosocial in nature. The importance of each element and their interaction remains unclear. It can be 'treated' successfully but even here binarism and social pressure is often debilitating because of the stigmatisation of dysphoria.
I guess my point was that while it is important and natural to seek and to share a complete understanding of the causes of dysphoria, we do know that it can be treated successfully and, for me, this was a revelation and perhaps the most important learning.
Aisla
Quote from: Olivia P on June 06, 2014, 12:22:22 PM
If there is a genetic and biological basis for gender, doesn't that mean sex and gender is in reality the same thing and that the separation of the terms are simply left overs from the days of science thinking gender is purely psychological?
Research of the past 14 years had produce a body of evidence that indicates that gender identity and sexual orientation are biological determined.
However, the brain centers involved in gender identity are different than the centers involve in sexual orientation, that is there are two different systems.
These discoveries first accepted and embraced by the endocrinologist, neurologists, neurobiologists, geneticist, and pediatricians, and later on by surgeons, have not sway some of the psychiatric and/or psychology establishment, who still hold to rather obtuse and outdate psychobabble theories of gender identity and/or sexual orientation development... that is not surprising as these field are empirical fields
Peky
Is there an 'idiots guide' on this subject? When you are a lay person like me it feels like trying to understand this is akin to navigating an ever changing maze of often confusing and contradictory opinion and 'evidence'.
Aisla
Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer.
The why = "biologically determined" is of tremendous importance legally and socially. President Obama move to cover SRS/HRT under medicare was "based on medical and scientific evidence"
Quote from: Aisla on June 20, 2014, 05:02:21 PM
Peky
Is there an 'idiots guide' on this subject? When you are a lay person like me it feels like trying to understand this is skin to navigating an ever changing maze of often confusing and contradictory opinion and 'evidence'.
Aisla
yes, you are right, scientist are not the best communicators, and the papers out there are for them rather for the common folks...
Yeah, a Biology of Gender Identity 101 would be a great book to have.... let me dig in my files, I can remember a well written review written by Saab and collaborators a few years back... stand-by
Hi, Aisla,
I do not know how to attach a pdf, so I am pasting the whole thing below
Sexual differentiation in the human brain
D.F. Swaab1, A-M. Bao1, T. Ishunina1,2
1Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 2Department of Histology, Kursk State
Medical University, Kursk, Russia
Functional sex differences are expressed from early childhood onwards, e.g. in our playing
behaviour and drawings. Sex differences in cognition, reproduction, gender identity (the
feeling to be male or female) and sexual orientation, and in the incidence of neurological and
psychiatric disorders in adulthood are presumed to be based upon structural and functional
sex differences in the brain. Many of such sex differences have now been described in the
human brain. They arise during development by an interaction of sex hormones and the
developing neurons, although direct genetic effects are probably also involved [1]. Factors
influencing structural [2] and functional [1, 3] sex differences in the brain are genetic factors
like mutations or polymorphisms in the sex hormone receptors, abnormal prenatal hormone
levels and compounds such as anticonvulsants, Diethylstilbestrol (an estrogen-like
compound) and environmental endocrine disrupters. When given during pregnancy they
interact with the action of sex hormones on the fetal brain. An influence of postnatal social
factors on gender or sexual orientation has not been established. In rodents, masculinization
of the brain in development is due to estrogens that are formed by aromatization of
testosterone. In sexual differentiation of the human brain direct effects of testosterone seem
to be of primary importance based upon evidence shown e.g. from subjects with mutations in
the androgen receptor, estrogen receptor or in the aromatase gene [3].
In transsexuals we observed a reversal of the sex difference in the central nucleus of the bed
nucleus of the stria terminalis. The size, type of innervation and neuron number agreed with
their gender identity and not with their genetic sex [4,5]. Various structural and functional
brain differences related to sexual orientation have now also been reported [1,6,7].
There is a clear sex difference in psychiatric disorders such as depression: the prevalence,
incidence and morbidity risk is higher in females than in males, which may be due to both
organizing and activating effects of sex hormones on the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal-axis.
Fluctuations in sex hormone levels are considered to be involved in the susceptibility to
depression, seen e.g. in the premenstrual, ante- and postpartum period, during the transition
phase to the menopause and during oral contraceptives treatment. It was found that about
40% of the activated corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH) neurons in the hypothalamic
paraventricular nucleus in mood disorders expresses also the estrogen receptor (ER)- [8].
Estrogen-responsive elements are found in the CRH gene promoter region, while estrogens
stimulate CRH expression in animal studies. An androgen-responsive element in the CRH
gene promoter region has also been identified recently, which initiates a suppressing effect on
CRH expression [9].
In addition, there are sex differences present in the way the brain ages and in Alzheimer
neuropathology [3, 7]. The field is becoming extra complex by the presence of splice variants
(and isoforms) of ER- and the local production of steroid hormones in the brain. In the
human medial mamillary nucleus and hippocampus we detected, using RT-PCR, ER splice
forms skipping entire exons 7, 4 and 2 and we identified two novel variants: 1) MB1 that is
lacking 168 nucleotides in exon 1, and 2) TADDI, in which 31bp are missing in between exons
3 and 4, while 13bp are inserted from the middle of exon 2 [10,11]. In our recent work we
investigated whether canonical and alternatively spliced ER-mRNA and protein are affected
by age, menopause and Alzheimer disease (AD) in the hippocampus that is essential for
declarative memory. Experimental and clinical studies indeed suggested beneficial effects of
estrogens on hippocampus-dependent cognitive functions. Such positive effects have,
however, not been obtained in late AD stages. Interestingly, nuclear ER
immunocytochemical expression was prominently higher in young women (34-50 years of
age) than in young men (31-64 years of age), possibly due to higher plasma estrogen levels.
Moreover, nuclear ER, aromatase and the Golgi complex size which is indicative of neuronal
metabolic activity, enhanced during aging in women. Our data suggested that the elevated
expression of nuclear ER in postmenopausal women versus pre- and perimenopausal
women is due to a drop in circulating estrogen levels that seems to cause an increase in the
local estrogen production in the hippocampus, which may subsequently up-regulate ER.
Furthermore, locally synthesized estrogens may stimulate hippocampal neuronal metabolic
rate in postmenopausal women via rapid non-genomic mechanisms. In AD cases canonical
and alternatively spliced ER-mRNA, and aromatase gene transcripts were down-regulated,
suggesting reduced local estrogen levels and diminished signaling through ER. Whether this
finding may be related to a general genetic shut-down in the AD hippocampus remains to be
elucidated. Concluding, structural and functional sex differences in the brain are present in all
stages of life, and are involved in many functions in heath as well as in diseases.
References
1 Swaab DF: The human hypothalamus. Basic and Clinical Aspects. Part I: Nuclei of the
Hypothalamus, Handbook of Clinical Neurology; in Aminoff MJ, Boller F, Swaab DF (ed. Amsterdam,
Elsevier, 2003, vol 79.
2 Swaab DF, Fliers E: A sexually dimorphic nucleus in the human brain. Science 1985; 228:1112-1115.
3 Swaab DF: Sexual differentiation of the human brain: Relevance for gender identity, transsexualism
and sexual orientation. Gynecol Endocrinol 2004;19: 301-312.
4 Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF: A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to
transsexuality. Nature 1995; 378: 68-70.
5 Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF: Male-to-female transsexuals
have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000; 85: 2034-2041.
6 Swaab DF, Hofman MA: An enlarged suprachiasmatic nucleus in homosexual men. Brain Res 1990;
537: 141-148.
7 Swaab DF: The Human Hypothalamus. Basic and Clinical Aspects. Part II: Neuropathology of the
hypothalamus and adjacent brain structures. Handbook of Clinical Neurology. Amsterdam, Elsevier,
2004.
8 Bao AM, Hestiantoro A, Van Someren EJ, Swaab DF, Zhou JN: Colocalization of corticotropinreleasing
hormone and oestrogen receptor-alpha in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus in
mood disorders. Brain 2005; 128: 1301-1313.
9 Bao AM, Fischer DF, Wu YH, Hol EM, Balesar R, Unmehopa UA, Zhou JN, Swaab DF: A direct
androgenic involvement in the expression of human corticotropin-releasing hormone. Mol Psychiatry
2006; 11: 567-576.
10 Ishunina TA, Swaab DF, Fischer DF: Estrogen receptor-alpha splice variants in the medial mamillary
nucleus of alzheimer's disease patients: Identification of a novel mb1 isoform. J Clin Endocrinol Metab
2005; 90: 3757-3765.
11 Ishunina TA, Fischer DF, Swaab DF: Estrogen receptor alpha and its splice variant
so, yeah, what I posted above is still pretty techie but if you dispense of the detail the gist of it is that gender identity, sexual orientation, and other gender specific behaviors and attributes, are due to hard-wired structures on the brain. This circuits are wired under the influence of drugs, hormone, and genes, in the womb, and shortly after birth.
Quote from: peky on June 20, 2014, 05:35:49 PM
so, yeah, what I posted above is still pretty techie but if you dispense of the detail the gist of it is that gender identity, sexual orientation, and other gender specific behaviors and attributes, are due to hard-wired structures on the brain. This circuits are wired under the influence of drugs, hormone, and genes, in the womb, and shortly after birth.
Peky
Many thanks for both postings. The first to demonstrate authority and the second as a plain English summary.
Now I hate to ask this but I have an insatiable curiousity so will ask any way!
What are the major criticisms that were directed at this research - was it experimental method, sample size, sample selection or something more surprising!
In other studies which attempted to identify differences in brain morphology I understand that a lot of the research was based on post mortem analysis of TS brains and there was concern that the samples were too small and the brains may have already been impacted by the use of cross sex hormones. I have also heard that the imaging devices are still a little primitive.
I have read some of Allan Schorre's work on affect regulation and the paper you posted appear to be consistent with his views so I think that I am slowly understanding elements of this research.
Like Jill, at the personal level I tend to the view 'it is what it is, let's treat it' and not over think this, but I certainly see the need for 'medical and scientific evidence' to influence policy and law makers.
Unfortunately theories and paradigms just seem to take ages to be challenged, questioned, rejected and replaced. In the meantime, we wander around a little lost, confused, invalidated and not well understood.
Fascinating stuff indeed.
Sincere thanks for sharing.
Aisla
Quote from: peky on June 20, 2014, 04:49:04 PM
Research of the past 14 years had produce a body of evidence that indicates that gender identity and sexual orientation are biological determined.
However, the brain centers involved in gender identity are different than the centers involve in sexual orientation, that is there are two different systems.
These discoveries first accepted and embraced by the endocrinologist, neurologists, neurobiologists, geneticist, and pediatricians, and later on by surgeons, have not sway some of the psychiatric and/or psychology establishment, who still hold to rather obtuse and outdate psychobabble theories of gender identity and/or sexual orientation development... that is not surprising as these field are empirical fields
Hi Peky. I appreciate your contributions to the forum. There is a recent opinion(synthesis?) in the Transgender Studies Quarterly (page 42). My opinion of this paper changes every time I read this. I would be interested in reading your interpretation of this paper.
Brain Imaging - C. Armes Gauthier
Transgender Studies Quarterly
http://tsq.dukejournals.org/content/1/1-2/42.full.pdf
Quote from: Stochastic on June 21, 2014, 07:37:41 AM
Hi Peky. I appreciate your contributions to the forum. There is a recent opinion(synthesis?) in the Transgender Studies Quarterly (page 42). My opinion of this paper changes every time I read this. I would be interested in reading your interpretation of this paper.
Brain Imaging - C. Armes Gauthier
Transgender Studies Quarterly
http://tsq.dukejournals.org/content/1/1-2/42.full.pdf
I fingered through a few pages, read one topic (imaging the brain), then looked up two authors...
Seems they are: psychologists and/or sociologists involved in gender studies and ethics. They sound scientific but they are not, they are what they are: social studies people trying to explain biological phenomena in a verbose and pedantic language that may seem scholastic to some but not to me.. no cigar, not even close
Personally, this type of studies in general end up giving me a migraine and/or nausea... who can believe their BS ???
Quote from: peky on June 21, 2014, 07:11:40 PM
I fingered through a few pages, read one topic (imaging the brain), then looked up two authors...
Seems they are: psychologists and/or sociologists involved in gender studies and ethics. They sound scientific but they are not, they are what they are: social studies people trying to explain biological phenomena in a verbose and pedantic language that may seem scholastic to some but not to me.. no cigar, not even close
Personally, this type of studies in general end up giving me a migraine and/or nausea... who can believe their BS ???
Peky
I love it! Short and succinct. Pithy and provocative. Waiting for the response from the social scientists.
Having said this - human interaction does help drive and modify human behavior so they do have something to offer ;)
Aisla
Quote from: peky on June 21, 2014, 07:11:40 PM
I fingered through a few pages, read one topic (imaging the brain), then looked up two authors...
Seems they are: psychologists and/or sociologists involved in gender studies and ethics. They sound scientific but they are not, they are what they are: social studies people trying to explain biological phenomena in a verbose and pedantic language that may seem scholastic to some but not to me.. no cigar, not even close
Personally, this type of studies in general end up giving me a migraine and/or nausea... who can believe their BS ???
Thanks for your input. Confusing is my polite way of describing the paper although I will not disagree with your characterization ;). The author's conclusion that new theories are needed that support the data gathered. However, the author does not specifically state what the existing problems are and does not prescribe a solution to the problems. I am surprised the work was approved by the editors.
So, to be fair I must acknowledge that the studies supporting the biological origin of GID are indicative but the whole story is in its infancy.
Like many other human biological phenomena we suffer from a large sample size, and thus any statistical conclusion may be weak.
More important is the fact that the highest brain mapping resolution is now 1 cubic millimeter, not good enough to get a really good picture of how things work and are related. Remember that there are about 50,000 neurons in 1 cubic millimeter of brain tissue, which translates into 100,000,000 connections.
However, help is on the way...
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/