Southern Baptists approve resolutions on transgender identity, the afterlife and casinos
By Carol McPhail | on June 10, 2014 at 2:22 PM
MOBILE, Alabama -- Southern Baptist delegates approved resolutions at the denomination's annual meeting Tuesday on topics ranging from transgender identity and Hollywood's portrayal of the afterlife to government support of casinos and lotteries.
On transgender identity, the delegates affirmed that "God's good design that gender identity is determined by biological sex and not by one's self-perception." The resolution, which was approved, urges transgender people to "trust in Christ and to experience renewal in the Gospel."
More: http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2014/06/southern_baptists_approve_reso.html
Translation?
A group of humans got together recently to decide for themselves what gods wishes are. After making sure no decision made affected themselves, they proceeded to conclude that because they don't like a specific group that god deems it ok to be ignorant.
"Gender is decided by biological sex"? There is no such thing. I mean what is it? its definitely NOT your chromosomes :/.
That alone suggests, these people don't know what your talking about.
What would they call a person with AIS? (That's biology)
Or a person with 47 XXY? (Don't think they would agree these people are both)
So what is the argument?
"We retain the right to judge people how they look and we're going to use a word like biology and god to sound like we know what we're talking about and in some way justified in our ignorance"
GOD is no longer in that church, just people that like to feel as if there better then everyone ells.
This is not much of a surprise, and it's just typical of a religious group that has willingly put themselves on the wrong side of history. The Southern Baptist Convention was formed in 1845 following a split from northern Baptists over the issue of forbidding Southern slave-owners from becoming ordained missionaries. They became Southern Baptists because they wanted to be slave owners more than they wanted to be righteous.
This is the 21st century version of religious narrow-mindedness, and it's why organized religion is in trouble these days.
Really, seriously? So our Souls are supposed to be what our physical bodies are? I guess these are the same people that think they will be driving thier Cadillacs in heaven on gold paved streets. It never ceases to amaze me how people that are supposed to be so Spiritual are so mired down in the material world that they can't distinguish the differences between the body and Spirit.
Can we not turn this into bashing of southern baptists? I'm not religious, but my cultural background is southern baptist, and a lot of those people are just living with what they know and the way they've been raised. Even if you don't like them, how they deal with us is certainly relevant and worth approaching with diplomacy. They won't be so mean and small-minded if they get to know us as family members and neighbors, but they'll buckle down harder if we hate them back when they're being short-sighted.
Quote from: Felix on June 14, 2014, 07:05:53 AM
Can we not turn this into bashing of southern baptists? I'm not religious, but my cultural background is southern baptist, and a lot of those people are just living with what they know and the way they've been raised. Even if you don't like them, how they deal with us is certainly relevant and worth approaching with diplomacy. They won't be so mean and small-minded if they get to know us as family members and neighbors, but they'll buckle down harder if we hate them back when they're being short-sighted.
If people express bigoted hateful speech, they have to be prepared for the consequences when those hurt by said speech defend themselves.
With that said, thats no excuse to sink to their level, its far more effective to neutralize them through using the power of information and truth than to react in a non compassionate way that involves some level of anger and hate for them.
But even then, were only humans, back someone into a corner and they will bite back, its only natural, instincts. Its not ideal, but its how things are.
Quote from: John F. KennedyThose who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
If someone decides to support messages of intolerance and hatred, they need to be realistic about the world they live in, there are consequences that nobody would ideally support, but can happen in the heat of the moment if the wrong person is pushed enough.
Its a horrible truth, but its true either way. Im sure everyone would prefer to settle things in a peaceful compassionate mindful way, and i sure hope it happens, after all hate can never dispel hate, only love can dispel hate. Aggression can only ever create more aggression.
It is hard to deal with such situations, but its equally important for us to find our center, make space for peace within ourselves and to do all we can to resolve conflicts in the only true way possible.
Using Compassion, Understanding, Empathy, Unconditional Love, Concentration and Mindfulness
Quote from: Felix on June 14, 2014, 07:05:53 AM. . . a lot of those people are just living with what they know and the way they've been raised.
I'll agree with that statement on an individual-by-individual basis. If someone who is ill-informed about gender issues asks me a strange or intrusive question, makes incorrect assumptions about what or who I am, or if they misgender me, I'll make allowances for the fact that they might know no better or perhaps that they think it's how they're supposed to treat me. It's a great educational opportunity and a chance to show someone that we're not what they might expect (in a good way).
But when an entire group of 5,000 - which I cannot believe for one moment doesn't have some members who know better - is presented with a statement so clearly incorrect and not one of them stands up and says, "You know what guys, this is pretty hateful and just plain wrong," I have my doubts that we can give them a pass based on blanket ignorance rather than just calling it for what it really is: endemic intolerance.
While individual spirituality is absolutely harmless, let's not forget that organized religion is often nothing more than a semi-political tool used to legitimize bigotry.
It is unfortunate that this group defines gender by biology, and being Baptist myself and coming out to my wife as TG, I've been on the brunt of a lot of negativity and their definition of biology is the plumbing. They have no clue about the Gender Spectrum and refuse to listen to someone unless they have a "Christian" perspective. Heck, my wife still believes the earth and universe are 6,000 years old. Rational discussion is sometimes not possible.
Hugs,
Traci
Quote from: Felix on June 14, 2014, 07:05:53 AM
Can we not turn this into bashing of southern baptists? I'm not religious, but my cultural background is southern baptist, and a lot of those people are just living with what they know and the way they've been raised. Even if you don't like them, how they deal with us is certainly relevant and worth approaching with diplomacy. They won't be so mean and small-minded if they get to know us as family members and neighbors, but they'll buckle down harder if we hate them back when they're being short-sighted.
^^^ That is one approach...
I rather side with....
Even though many Cities and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the
Gestapo Southern Baptist and all the odious apparatus of
Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in Alabama,
we shall fight on the malls and schools,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the courts, we shall defend our rights, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the facebook,
we shall fight on the newspapers,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the radio;
we shall never surrender,
after W. Churchill
This is a decision based on their theology and doctrine. For purposes of this discussion:
Theology - study of God
Doctrine - teachings and practices resulting from ones theology.
Theology is viewed from the prism of ones cultural background and personal biases.
Of the top of my head, I believe that Southern Baptists are a conservative group, and base their theology on a literal bible. As a result, their theology and doctrine regarding transgender lies along the lines of condemnation of transition, but loving the sinning transexual. (I am expressing their viewpoint). I could certainly raise issues with their lens/viewpoint, but it is what they as a group believe, regardless of ones personal sympathies.
As a group, if we bash and condemn them, then we do no better than them, and will have no chance of moving their position.
Some thoughts to dwell on, maybe?
"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."
"An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win."
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is like an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."
Mahatma Gandhi
Quote from: luna nyan on July 23, 2014, 03:30:26 AM
Of the top of my head, I believe that Southern Baptists are a conservative group, and base their theology on a literal bible. As a result, their theology and doctrine regarding transgender lies along the lines of condemnation of transition, but loving the sinning transexual. (I am expressing their viewpoint). I could certainly raise issues with their lens/viewpoint, but it is what they as a group believe, regardless of ones personal sympathies.
As a group, if we bash and condemn them, then we do no better than them, and will have no chance of moving their position.
We shouldn't bash or condemn but try to educate. However, as I am married to an independent fundamental Baptist (they think Southern Baptists are too liberal) some people will not listen to reason. Many of these people still believe the earth is 6,000 years old. All we can do is continue to try to educate that there is more to gender identity than original plumbing that makes a person male or female.
Hugs,
Traci
!
Traci,
Southern baptists are already too fundy for my taste, and you're married to someone more extreme. There is going to be a lot of work ahead for you and your SO if there is goin to be any civilised discourse...
As far as the Genesis narrative is concerned, there are many ways of looking at it, but let's not get bogged down on that here.
Wishing you luck and patience,
Luna
Quote from: peky on July 22, 2014, 05:59:44 PM
^^^ That is one approach...
I rather side with....
Even though many Cities and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo Southern Baptist and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in Alabama,
we shall fight on the malls and schools,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the courts, we shall defend our rights, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the facebook,
we shall fight on the newspapers,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the radio;
we shall never surrender,
after W. Churchill
Serious question....How do we fight or what do we fight with?
Jen
Luna,
Thanks for the well wishes. There will be no rational discourse. When I begin HRT, its over. We just have to figure out how to best split and not upset my son's life (like that's a possibility. we raised him well to be a good little fundy so I probably lose him too.) She wasn't always so rabidly fundamental and I wasn't always so dysphoric. But "It is what it is."
My advice for anyone who is trans, the idea has ever crossed their mind that they might be trans, be a cross-dresser, don't date or fall in love with a fundy, find someone more open-minded like maybe a Methodist, or better yet a Wiccan.
Hugs All,
Traci
Quote from: JLT1 on July 24, 2014, 09:30:43 AM
Serious question....How do we fight or what do we fight with?
Jen
Science is on our side, and has been used by our advocates to enable the decision makers with the justification to pass laws that benefits.
The educated media, and their reporting of trans news, have been a great way to turn the tide against the obscurantist and religious extremists
Hollywood has put a positive spin on trans issues thereby enhancing acceptance and tolerance by the general chusma (plebeians)
Some religious organizations are and have been powerful advocates of our rights,
and the Democratic party of course, sans a few Neanderthals
Traci,
So your family has not explored the basis for other positions in Christianity? Personally, I find discussion with fundy Christians difficult, as they tend to have blinkers on and refuse to see the validity of other viewpoints.
Many fundamentalist Christians I know, base their doctrine on a simplistic dogma. It is easy to make decisions and judgements when things are black or white, and the beauty of fundy Christianity is that the areas of grey are also coloured black or white.
Perhaps someday your family may see that things are not so black and white in the scriptures. Until then, you have my sympathies in discussing things with them.
Peky,
Although rational science may give evidence based answers to these people, the true issue at hand is how they theologically define what is male or female. Cultural shifts may happen in the secular world, but the attitude of some sections of Christianity is to view deviations as a reflection of a fallen world.
A pure biological explanation may not be sufficient for acceptance by some Christian groups. Their theology has to change in order for doctrine to follow, but that may never happen, or may be a long time in happening.
Thanks for your sympathy Luna, It is appreciated. I know I got myself into it when I decided to accept the Bible as fact, hook, line and sinker. But after I became a lay preacher and through much study came up with too many contradictions which to this day, I can't get any of them to acknowledge. They keep their blinders on even though I've now fallen away.
Yes Peky, The extreme fundy viewpoint is God said it, it is true. If the Bible said the moon was made of green cheese you'd have these people spouting the moon is made of cheese. That's why they've developed a whole alternative science to show the earth is 6,000 years old. According to them God made male and female - never mind that there are people born intersexed. Just overlook those and look to the plumbing to see if they're male or female. The gender spectrum is a figment of our imagination.
Unfortunately a split in the family is coming. Its just when I decide to start HRT.
Hugs girls,
Traci
btw you should have seen her flip out when I got my first check for an erotic novel I had published yeow!
So let me get this straight...an organization that prays to imaginary claims it's not "okay" to be who I am? They then want me to further embrace their delusions? That's down right freaking hilarious!
Traci,
For me, a person of scientific bent and background, there is much truth about human nature in the Bible. By faith, I have come to my relationship with Jesus Christ. My life experience has had too many weird coincidences for me to not say that there is something out there beyond human ken.
I hope that the reason you have left the church is more because of issues with theology, rather than the actions of others. If it is the latter, then for what it's worth, you have my apologies on their behalf.
Quote from: Natalie on July 25, 2014, 02:21:54 PM
So let me get this straight...an organization that prays to imaginary claims it's not "okay" to be who I am? They then want me to further embrace their delusions? That's down right freaking hilarious!
Ah, that's the beauty of it. To them, you are the delusional one, the one in denial of the true reality of things. As previously posted, let's not get into religious bashing. :D
Perhaps some day, I might post something for discussion in the religion/spirituality section and you can poke fun at me there. ;)
The position that the Southern Baptists have taken is not surprising. That is all. And nothing will come of it until the group changes a lot of their theological and doctrinal positions.
I'm on the opposite corner of the country from where southern baptists are based, but the manager of an apartment I applied to today has a cross on her desk and was able to speak knowledgeably about Alabama and other southern states, so there's a good chance I'll continue to live with this topic. I take the least confrontational approach because I have never had the option of just not getting along, but I respect and understand that some people have stronger opinions and different priorities.
I'm a little startled by the 5000 number quoted earlier. I don't think I have the emotional fortitude to google that, but I think I can safely say there are far more than 5000 southern baptists.
Official doctrine is not the same as individual belief for most churchgoers. I've mainly experienced that with catholics, but if you look at official tenets of any religion or denomination, many of them are too obscure or impractical for most practicers to concern themselves with. If a person sees you as a person, who you are may very well trump what their religion says, and as public opinion and real behavior changes, so do interpretations of doctrine.
Southern baptists will come around just like everybody else does.
Felix,I believe that was from their annual convention.
As it was, and mostly seniors in the church, the result was pretty much decided beforehand. The baptist union being congregational in nature, any change will take a long time to occur, probably another 2 generations.
" far more than 5000 southern baptists"
-16 million members (wikipedia)
I'm with felix on this, as someone raised southern baptist myself.
When it comes to trying to deprogram deeply religious (or similar) people from trans/homophobic (or any other kind of hateful) beliefs, fighting them will only make the problem worse. You can't win. They see God as being on their side, and they see you as being influenced by the devil, living in sin. Therefore, they see any attack coming from you as being a demonic influence / satanic attack. You can't attack their beliefs without attacking them and God - it's impossible to dissuade them. Plus, if they're the type to get in your face about something like that in public, chances are they are very well prepared to combat basically anything you could think to say with scripture.
It's sick, but true - I'm a pastor's kid so I've seen my share of this.
The only thing we can do is be good examples of our best selves, and trust that 99.9% of religious people will eventually come around once they have a more personal way to relate to the gay/trans issue (neighbor, family, etc.). The other folks can go join a cult for all I care.
Maybe we can remind them that the point of religion is to be close to God, and that "God is love". :)
Quote from: Felix on June 14, 2014, 07:05:53 AM
Can we not turn this into bashing of southern baptists? I'm not religious, but my cultural background is southern baptist, and a lot of those people are just living with what they know and the way they've been raised. Even if you don't like them, how they deal with us is certainly relevant and worth approaching with diplomacy. They won't be so mean and small-minded if they get to know us as family members and neighbors, but they'll buckle down harder if we hate them back when they're being short-sighted.
I'm sorry, but when I read things like this it's hard for me not to think their church has been corrupted by the devil or something. If they actually bothered to read the bible they might notice God's love on every page.
I was a Southern Baptist for 50 years, up until this last year. I was a Southern Baptist minister for 26 of those years (resigned ordination and license to preach for reasons unrelated to being TG). As long as people like those who drafted this resolution continue to believe that sex and gender are one and the same, and continue to spread the myth that transpersons are either gay, or just get their rocks off by dressing like a woman/man, and ignore/refuse to acknowledge the medical research done over the past 20-30 years which has determined, more or less, that this is a medical condition having to do with the brain itself, rather than being a mental illness, there will be resolutions and edicts handed down and voted on by denominational leaders and delegates to annual meetings/conventions, who don't take the time to actually do the homework and study these things themselves. Having said that, one of the nice things about the Southern Baptists is that a resolution such as this only carries as much weight as the individual congregation gives it, meaning this: it is entirely possible for even a very conservative SBC congregation to consider this resolution, and after having studied the situation, decide not to adhere to it. A resolution is not law. Also, the 5,000 or so who attended the 2014 meeting and approved this resolution, hardly speak for close to 16 million members of Southern Baptist churches.
Still, I felt that I had to leave the church which I love, the church whose members loved and prayed me through three funerals (sister, mom, dad died within 8 months of each other (Jan., Feb, and August 2013)) and a divorce (unrelated to me being TG; my ex never knew, as far as I can tell), not because of anything they did or said (I did not come out to anybody at church), but because I could not, no matter how good the sermon the pastor preached (and he is awesome), or how good the Sunday School lesson was (I had a great Sunday School teacher), I could not sit there without the thought in the back of my mind that the denomination (not the local church) in which I grew up, was baptized, and one of whose seminaries I attended (I have since returned my diploma to them), had just declared that I was "confused," and "needed to turn to God and repent," (did that when I was ten (10) years old), and had pretty much thrown my under the bus and kicked me to the curb. I still have lunch with with one of my friends from church a couple or three times a month, and I have lunch with the pastor every so often.
I have just begun my transition, and have yet to come out to anybody other than (what's left of) my immediate family, my doctors (except for my chiropractor) and my therapy group; that in itself was easily the scariest thing I have ever done (everybody has been supportive thus far). I'm still trying to figure out how to come out at work, where I will have spent 19 years this coming June (if they don't freak out and fire me (which will be a big mistake for them, thanks to Macy v. ATF, Macy v. Holder, and Glenn v. Brumby)), and I'm really scared about coming out to extended family and friends (some of whom I have known for close to 40 years). I am planning on taking down my Facebook page soon, as the person who put it up will soon cease to exist (physically, anyway), and I don't want to deal with the fallout that may occur if I were to come out to everybody all at once. It's going to be a long and interesting journey, but it's one I have been waiting literally my whole life to take. Wish me luck.
PS: Sorry for the long post; this is my first time posting here (I think), and I've been saving up :D
Quote from: Felix on July 26, 2014, 04:58:34 AMSouthern baptists will come around just like everybody else does.
It's less "coming around" than being dragged kicking and screaming.
Religious leaders are social followers. They're more into pandering and panhandling than being panegyrical or seeking panacea.
When believers obey, religious leaders try to dictate morality and behaviour. Young believers today disagree because they know and have learnt better, and they are taking their money and social power with them as they leave. Religions are changing their tune for financial and political reasons, not moral ones. It's all about losing the Benjamins which scares the bejesus out of them.
It was first the anglicans but now the southern baptists, the jews, the catholics, the buddhists and even the muslims in some countries. It also happened fifty years ago, vis-a-vis the 50th anniversary of the 1965 civil rights marches in the US. White churches started joining the black churches in the marches because a criticial mass of social change was reached. Politicians are religious leaders are the same - they will switch sides in a heartbeat so they always appear on the winning side.