11th June 2014, 1:38 PM, Nick Duffy
A poll has found that 59% of Americans think that trans people should have to use the bathroom associated with their birth gender.
The poll, conducted by SSRS on behalf of CBS News, asked participants to pick between the statements "Transgendered students should use the bathrooms/locker rooms of their birth gender", and "Transgendered students should use the bathrooms/locker rooms of their preferred gender".
It found that 59% of Americans overall believed they should use the bathroom of their birth gender, with just 26% comfortable with them using their preferred bathroom
More: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/06/11/poll-majority-of-americans-oppose-trans-people-using-preferred-bathroom/
We clearly need monitors in all bathrooms now to inspect genitalia at the door.
/sarc
Can you imagine Buck Angel being forced to use the ladies' room?
What this proves is that most Americans remain completely ignorant when it comes to trans* issues. The good news is that I'll bet we can sway 10% of them within 10 years and the majority will be with us. Look at same-sex marriage stats now vs. 10 years ago.
And a lot of those 59% probably have already used the bathroom in the presence of a transgender person and did not know it.
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 11, 2014, 03:40:25 PM
I absolutely cannot imagine Buck Angel being forced to use the ladies room. That's absurd. I also cannot imagine Lea T being forced into the mens. This is because the truth is that people don't tend to care what restroom you use as long as you look like you belong there. The problem most people have is with people who don't look like they belong there. And that has nothing to do with being transgender. I used to work with a very butch lesbian who had been confronted by women in multiple public restrooms with that ''uhhh, you're in the wrong restroom!'' She had the same reaction each time too. She said she'd grab her boobs and say ''I don't f***ing think so!'' So this is something that happens to cisgender women who don't fit the feminine standards of society too.
So the law should clearly reflect whether you are deemed "passable" or not by whoever else is in the bathroom at the time.
/extreme sarc
One time I was in the ladies' room in a long line after a concert in Vegas, when I heard a drunk woman scream, "There's a f***ing MAN in here! Get the f*** out before I call the cops!" At first I thought she might be referring to me. Nope. The person in question was clearly FAAB. I got in and out without a second look.
Quote from: Eva Marie on June 11, 2014, 03:31:46 PM
And a lot of those 59% probably have already used the bathroom in the presence of a transgender person and did not know it.
Exactly. 99% of the time I have never been questioned going into the women's room. The one time it happened, it wasn't even done directly. It was done by some 16 year old brat chick that was sitting at a table with 3 or 4 other girls. She was promptly silenced by her peers.
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 11, 2014, 04:06:19 PM
That's exactly the problem some very trans-ignorant legislators are going to get into if they push for trans* people to use restroom of their birth sex. There are tons (or from what I've seen most) of trans* people who 'pass'. And I absolutely hate that term. It's an insane idea that enforces the same lame gender stereotypes that have been alive and well for far too long. Anyways, what happens to them? Where do they go? Where do intersex people go? Legislating restroom use is an insane idea. And the Americans who say that they think trans* people should use the restroom of their birth sex are ignorant and need to be educated.
I'm no fan of it either. It implies the opposite- "fail". That becomes too ugly and potentially damaging for my taste.
Maybe what we do is put a group of assorted cis and trans people in front of legislators and poll them on whom should be using which bathroom based on looks alone and illustrate how farcical this can be.
If all bathrooms were single occupant family-friendly facilities that accommodated both genders the problem would go away for everyone...
Unfortunately nothing surprises me. this is just another example of just how far society needs to go before understanding and accepting us
Aisla
Polls like this do not gauge people's opinion. They have to do more with the wording of the question.
If the question were, "do you want males, including transgender males, to be using a woman's restroom", I'm sure they would have gotten a vastly different response.
People, THIS IS OUR FAULT.
We're assuming people are born knowing about and understanding our bathroom issues. We assume people have thought about it. We assume that if they haven't, they're narrow minded bigots who can't be reached.
Well, they don't, they haven't, and they aren't.
People haven't thought about this because WE'VE SAT ON OUR BUTTS AND REFUSED TO EDUCATE THEM. Newsflash: People aren't going to understand our bathroom issues unless we MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND. We need to explain the situation. If people don't understand that it doesn't make sense for us to use the bathroom associated with our birth sex, it's because WE HAVEN'T GIVEN THEM THE FACTS!
Many people have never knowingly met a trans person who passes. Their image of trans women are the caricatures they've seen in the media and the occasional non-passing woman they might have noticed in public. Their image of transguys is probably nil, since they generally pass and aren't portrayed in media at all.
And I guarantee that the cis person is very, very rare who has sat down and asked himself/herself what it must be like to be living as woman everywhere for every purpose but be forced to use the men's restroom (or vice versa).
Alright, I'll get down from my soap box before I fall off and break something.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 11, 2014, 03:17:41 PM
A poll has found that 59% of Americans think that trans people should have to use the bathroom associated with their birth gender.
Yeah, good way to get raped too. I can see it now, MtF trans-woman reluctantly walks into men's restroom, men are in there, oh boy...
Stupid poll, ignorant people. They all think Transsexual is some sort of perversive thing, like we're dressing up like women and going into women's restrooms to get off. Thankfully ever since the very first time I had ever used the female's bathroom I've never once had any issues, no odd or fearful looks, no confrontations. Other than my boss at my last job asking me if it would be a problem, it wasn't of coarse.
Quote from: Virginia on June 11, 2014, 10:37:40 PM
If all bathrooms were single occupant family-friendly facilities that accommodated both genders the problem would go away for everyone...
Totally would fix all problems. Only real issue, it costs money to reconfigure them all.
At my job we have two bathrooms, each single toilet one person only, one is labeled for men an the other for women, but both are exactly the same inside and I've seen both men and women use the opposite labeled one when they had to go, heck I've done it myself, because there's no difference to them, one person at a time only and the doors lock, so no big deal, no problems.
The article is worded misleadingly. 56% of Americans? Polled 1,016 people? That should be "56% of Americans surveyed." That is a rather small sample to represent such a large population.
Single-user unisex bathrooms are ideal, it would be great to have more of them, but they are not as space and cost efficient as multi-user bathrooms. So it doesn't seem likely multi-stalls will be entirely replaced any time soon, if ever. It'd be a good start to at least have one single-user unisex bathroom where public facilities are expected. Would help pee-shy folks too.
Quote from: blink on June 12, 2014, 08:46:53 AM
It'd be a good start to at least have one single-user unisex bathroom where public facilities are expected. Would help pee-shy folks too.
I believe we are seeing more and more of this. Likely driven by society's growing awareness of accommodating all the people with special bathroom needs (our growing elderly population, folk with disabilities, people with complex hygiene issues and single parents folk with children) than gender concerns.
It was also a poll about trans *students.* People lose their ability to think reasonably when it comes to kids; I've seen even people who DO argue for trans adults in the right bathrooms doing the "little kids might be misled by their parents/change their minds and do we want boys flashing their penises in the little girls' room" crap when the question of schools comes up.
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 11, 2014, 04:28:11 PM
That sounds like a fabulous idea, really. I would love to be a part of that group of cis women. Then I'd look at one of those old white guys staring at my boobs and say, ''hey, guess what. I was born with CAIS. I have testes, a vagina, and XY chromosomes. My birth sex is male genotype and female phenotype with female on my birth certificate! What restroom should I use?'' I would love to see the reaction and be part of the group that proves that looks and birth sex aren't everything.
Candice you totally rock! I snorted my tea so hard my dog was found in the next county over! ;D I would love to be there to hear their answer, well, that or call 911 for the heart attack they would have. :laugh:
Quote from: Jenna Marie on June 12, 2014, 11:29:49 AM
It was also a poll about trans *students.* People lose their ability to think reasonably when it comes to kids; I've seen even people who DO argue for trans adults in the right bathrooms doing the "little kids might be misled by their parents/change their minds and do we want boys flashing their penises in the little girls' room" crap when the question of schools comes up.
Yeah, rightly or wrongly, I think this may have influenced the poll. Sexual assault on teen girls by male peers is high. And people may be reacting to that. I think it's the 'possible male predator in the restroom with our girls' thing that scares people. They just don't understand it's not like that. Basically, those with loud voices on this are appealing to the very real fear of girls being sexually assaulted.
Education is needed, definitely. If they understood that many trans girls fear the same thing in boys' rooms and have experienced sexual assault themselves in many cases, maybe they would get it.
FA
You may be right, as education often helps. However prejudice and fear runs deep. Binary thinking is deeply entrenched. Introducing change is seen as introducing risk. The status quo is therefore vigorously protected often even in the face of compelling argument or logic.
Aisla
It's a misleading title, only 59% out of however many they asked said this. It doesn't account for "A Majority of Americans" it only accounts for A Majority of the Americans that where selected for the poll.
People are insanely obsessed with penises, who has them, and how dangerous they are. As if the mere presence of a penis is dangerous. Absolutely ridiculous.
I find it sad that most of these laws target trans women who don't pass easily (yes I hate that term, too). But yes, cisgender women get stares, too. I was early in transition and not passing, at least not at home in my liberal state. I had just (as in a few days) started T. I had cut my hair but not even totally butch. I took my daughter on an adventure to a more conservative area. It was that time of the month, and I headed to the restroom. Oh the stares I got by everyone in there. I was like, really?? Like women with short hair were an anomaly or something. I can't even say I looked butch in the least. But nobody confronted me. If they had I might have had to flash them a used tampon or something, LOL.
People don't believe they use the restrooms with trans people all the time and don't know it. Because we're not in there flashing our junk. We're doing business and leaving. And maybe what will have legislators change their minds about these stupid bathroom bills is a couple of busloads of us descending on them and having us use the restrooms en mass according to our 'birth gender' and have them really see how ridiculous it is. From the Buck Angel types to the funky bois in the ladies room, and Laverne Cox beauties and regular gals in the men's room. Might be educational.
In reply to those questioning the accuracy of this kind of survey....
The sad thing is, that assuming a normal +/-5 variance this is probably the opinion held by most Americans.
But don't despair as irrational and uneducated as these people are, the reality is most of those people
a). Aren't smart enough to write, let alone vote... and most of them don't
b). Have no real power over the law
considering the law is mostly in our favour...mostly... it is going to take a lot of work
by the religious right to make any changes on 'bathroom policy' (Giggles to self over how ridiculous that sounds)
so long as we have substantial 'bathroom' support (over 30%!!!!!) than we don't have that much to worry about.
*Also point to note:
All things considered I would have expected that percentage to be much higher, especially given the amount of coverage bathroom use has had in the mainstream media.... and Fox.
I kinda see those numbers as promising... although I see I'm in the minority <3
The self-nominated toilet fraud squad gets no say in anything. From power-tripping school teachers to the ancient order of habitually-mystified McDonalds workers, if anyone is going to try and force me into the ladies' room... Well, they will look remarkably foolish for directing an obvious male to use the women's room when all the women in there start lining up to complain about an obvious male lurking in the ladies' room like an irritated box jellyfish that wants to prod them with his manic death-tentacles from under the stall door while making frenzied Andy Serkis noises. (I suppose they would just assume.)
See how the management likes that charming development. :-\
Quote from: Eva Marie on June 11, 2014, 03:31:46 PM
And a lot of those 59% probably have already used the bathroom in the presence of a transgender person and did not know it.
Hahah yes! I think it's funny how many of these anti-trans people are unaware of how many people around them in everyday life are actually transgender.
It would cause more commotion and problems if trans people were to use the bathroom of their birth sex. If Buck Angel walked into the ladies room all the women would say he was a perv and had no right being there and probably call security or the cops. Not a good idea. Plus a lot of us already have high nerves using our current gender's rest room so it would elevate the stress or possibly getting the cops called on them, not to mention out them. No bueno. :l
An easy solution would be to make all public restrooms "multi-user unisex" with private stalls.
"Preferred" gender just baits the question for ~600 morons of the ~1000 people they polled to give ->-bleeped-<-ty answers. They could have said "natural" gender, or "confirmed" gender, "actual" gender (because post-transition is in fact one's actual gender.) Can you imagine how awkward it would be to get asked this over the phone? Especially some layperson at dinner thinking, Wait, preferred gender? Hey, what gender do you prefer today? Is that what this is?
It's as bad or worse as "religious preference", "sexual preference", etc. I've long lampooned the use of those terms... ex."We do not discriminate on sexual preference. If you don't prefer to have sex we'll still have sex with you."
Quote from: Jill F on June 11, 2014, 04:16:14 PM
Maybe what we do is put a group of assorted cis and trans people in front of legislators and poll them on whom should be using which bathroom based on looks alone and illustrate how farcical this can be.
I like to play this game I call Trans or Cis with a few of my close friends for this very reason. I'll gather some pictures of trans men and women and cis men and women and have them guess which is which. They often get most of them wrong. The ones they do get right, they typically guess the opposite of their gut instinct (i.e. if I show a picture of a trans male, they think cis but say trans) because they know how the game works. It kinda helps destroy the idea that there's a "trans look" and all that.
Quote from: Aiden In Progress on August 24, 2014, 04:14:10 PM
I like to play this game I call Trans or Cis with a few of my close friends for this very reason. I'll gather some pictures of trans men and women and cis men and women and have them guess which is which. They often get most of them wrong. The ones they do get right, they typically guess the opposite of their gut instinct (i.e. if I show a picture of a trans male, they think cis but say trans) because they know how the game works. It kinda helps destroy the idea that there's a "trans look" and all that.
I do that in my head a lot when we go out shopping, dinner, etc... I have nobody else I could play a game like that with though..? Its weird to have lots of trans friends on the computer, but in real life have nobody.?? The first time I ever thought of it though, was back on those TV shows like jerry springer, they used to take CIS guys from the audience, bring out 10 women and tell him to tell which 3 were CIS female, they never got it right..
About the restrooms, its like beating a dead horse, we know the truth from actual experiences, and the rest of the public is comotose as usual on these subjects, saying the same ignorant things over and over,.
I know where there's always a genderless bathroom anyone is welcome to use... My house..!! :)
I realize this is an old thread, but I am a new member and only just discovered it and wanted to comment.
I can't help but wonder if the results of this poll would have been different if the question was phrased differently? I would have removed the words "students" and "locker rooms", and only asked if Americans oppose trans people from using their preferred bathroom? "Locker rooms" have showers and nudity and "students" come in all ages. Thoughts of nudity and minors probably came to the minds of at least some of those people who were polled. IMO, we shouldn't worry ourselves over this.
Quote from: Virginia on June 11, 2014, 10:37:40 PM
If all bathrooms were single occupant family-friendly facilities that accommodated both genders the problem would go away for everyone...
That would greatly increase the cost and space requirements as well as the waiting time. Just make all public restrooms multi-user unisex with adequate privacy for the stalls. It will minimize the cost and space requirements and equalize wait times for everybody.
It would even lessen the likeyhood that women and frail boys and men would be attacked as they would be less likely to be in the restroom alone with a predator.
I agree with you on the idea for there to be all multi-user, unisex bathrooms with privacy in the stalls. With that, I still believe there needs to be family restrooms as well. Parents with small toddlers and infants need that family environment. The downside of unisex bathrooms with private stalls will more than likely increase the likelihood for there to be sexual activities in those stalls. ::)
Quote from: Going4Miles on December 18, 2014, 12:23:53 PM
The downside of unisex bathrooms with private stalls will more than likely increase the likelihood for there to be sexual activities in those stalls. ::)
Well, that just shows how stupid people are. :D Considering how gross and disgusting most restrooms can be. There is no way in hell that I would want to hang around. I do what needs to be done and get the hell out.
Quote from: Going4Miles on December 18, 2014, 12:23:53 PM
I agree with you on the idea for there to be all multi-user, unisex bathrooms with privacy in the stalls.
Quote from: mac1 on December 18, 2014, 09:36:12 AM
Just make all public restrooms multi-user unisex with adequate privacy for the stalls. It will minimize the cost and space requirements and equalize wait times for everybody.
What would you say to (the very large number of) people who feel uncomfortable using a restroom with someone of the opposite gender? "Sorry, but we've decided you have to be uncomfortable"?
Quote from: Jill F on June 11, 2014, 03:24:16 PM
We clearly need monitors in all bathrooms now to inspect genitalia at the door.
/sarc
Can you imagine Buck Angel being forced to use the ladies' room?
What this proves is that most Americans remain completely ignorant when it comes to trans* issues. The good news is that I'll bet we can sway 10% of them within 10 years and the majority will be with us. Look at same-sex marriage stats now vs. 10 years ago.
You can also sway it right noiw with he following survey:
Would you agree to go to the bathroom with someone looking of the opposite gender, because thery were born the same gender as you.
What a dodgey poll, like if the poll was about opposing us from using the toilets of our birth gender, the numbers would be no different.
Haha Buck Angel in the girls room haha.
I might have to bubble the water if I'm ever in an American public toilet >:-)
The image of Buck Angel walking into the ladies' loo is going to be in my head all day...
Quote from: Wynternight on December 18, 2014, 03:00:39 PM
The image of Buck Angel walking into the ladies' loo is going to be in my head all day...
These days, me walking into the men's room sounds equally absurd. I think male fail must have happened ages ago.
Quote from: Jill F on December 18, 2014, 03:07:34 PM
These days, me walking into the men's room sounds equally absurd. I think male fail must have happened ages ago.
I've been getting "The Look" for years walking into the gents but it's even more pronounced now with almost four months of HRT. I must admit to a bit of amusement when I see people walk in and stop, take a glance at the door sign before walking in and I once had someone tell me I was in the wrong one. I just said oops and walked off, giggling madly.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 11, 2014, 03:17:41 PM
11th June 2014, 1:38 PM, Nick Duffy
The poll, conducted by SSRS on behalf of CBS News, asked participants to pick between the statements "Transgendered students should use the bathrooms/locker rooms of their birth gender", and "Transgendered students should use the bathrooms/locker rooms of their preferred gender".
More: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/06/11/poll-majority-of-americans-oppose-trans-people-using-preferred-bathroom/
Hhmmm....so we're talking about students/kids here, right? Not the general/adult population...right?? Is there a disconnect between what was being measured and the conclusion/results of the poll???
I have several issues with the conclusions being drawn here. Most of them have been pointed out already, but I think it would be helpful to put them in one place:
1) They use 'transgendered' instead of 'transgender.' The -ed suffix is a negative cue because it implies that something "happened" to them.
2) People tend to be overprotective of their children and young people in general, and therefore these results are not generalizable to transgender adults.
3) This poll included locker rooms as well as bathrooms, and locker rooms are a much less private setting where the 'wrong' body is likely to be much more evident.
4) There could be selection bias, because this poll only included those who were both contacted and interested in responding. I would think that the number of people who respond due to ignorant outrage would likely outnumber those who respond because they care about us.
5) The results also reflect a fundamental ignorance about transgender issues in the population. Although the religious right may be stubborn in this kind of prejudice, many other people would feel differently if they were properly informed.
Unfortunately this happened:
http://roygbiv.jezebel.com/christ-michelle-duggars-transphobic-robocall-actually-1669603380
Quote from: Jo-is-amazing on June 14, 2014, 08:21:26 AM
In reply to those questioning the accuracy of this kind of survey....
The sad thing is, that assuming a normal +/-5 variance this is probably the opinion held by most Americans.
But don't despair as irrational and uneducated as these people are, the reality is most of those people
a). Aren't smart enough to write, let alone vote... and most of them don't
b). Have no real power over the law
considering the law is mostly in our favour...mostly... it is going to take a lot of work
by the religious right to make any changes on 'bathroom policy' (Giggles to self over how ridiculous that sounds)
so long as we have substantial 'bathroom' support (over 30%!!!!!) than we don't have that much to worry about.
*Also point to note:
All things considered I would have expected that percentage to be much higher, especially given the amount of coverage bathroom use has had in the mainstream media.... and Fox.
I kinda see those numbers as promising... although I see I'm in the minority <3
Why is it that we are in the 21st century and we are are having to fight for the right to use a totally gross public restroom that simply corresponds with our gender. It seems like like the trans-phobes have stolen the narrative when we are are having to discuss why we have a right to go to the loo, instead of discussing the many other issues that affect trans peoples lives. BTW, I like the idea of Buck Angel walking into the ladies room. He should do it in a State Capitol building where many of these LGBT-phobic neanderthals congregate (sorry, actual neanderthals). A turning point for us will be when trans-phobes are mocked, humiliated, and made the butt of jokes on late-night television. A big part of the problem is that people who hate us are treated as though they are somehow taking a reasonable, logical position, and are therefore taken seriously by the general public. I think a little humor would be very helpful, to both illustrate the experiences of trans people and make and delegitimize those who hate us, also, the world simply needs more people who can help other people laugh
Quote from: rachel89 on December 25, 2014, 12:42:41 AM
Why is it that we are in the 21st century and we are are having to fight for the right to use a totally gross public restroom that simply corresponds with our gender.
Because we, as a community, have been sleeping on the job of educating the public who we are, why we transition, and why we need to use the restroom that matches our presentation.
I find that once I explain that someone living as a female has no place else to go, and that passability is a poor criterion for deciding who should be allowed to go where, most people understand quickly.
But when I've brought up the idea here that we should educate people about our restroom needs, I've been greeted by a chorus of posts of how it will bring out the haters and will do more harm than good.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 25, 2014, 06:10:01 AM
But when I've brought up the idea here that we should educate people about our restroom needs, I've been greeted by a chorus of posts of how it will bring out the haters and will do more harm than good.
I'm with you about this, Suzi. The issues we run into are all about people sing fearful of bathrooms. So we need to stop being afraid of the bathroom "issue" and start taking it on head on.
The county I live in has a gender identity non-discrimination ordinance. It also has a policy for its parks and recreation department that says the County "assigns use of the restrooms and locker rooms in its recreational facilities strictly on the basis of anatomical gender rather than on the basis of adopted gender." I'm told the County consulted with HRC for advice on how to create a non-discriminatory policy and ended up with that.
I don't see how to fight a policy like that without talking about bathrooms and locker rooms. So I put together a PowerPoint to show the Human Rights Commission that specifically addresses the issue. And I actually did put in a photo of Buck Angel with a note saying "this is someone who is required to use the women's locker rooms and bathrooms under County policy."
Naturally I got roundly criticized by the state's LGBT advocacy organization for doing it. But it's working so far. And people don't grasp the issue when you just tell them about it instead of showing them. And I don't know how to deal with a discriminatory bathroom policy without talking about bathrooms.
There are times when talking about bathrooms is wrong. Like when lobbying for an anti-discrimination bill, for example. Focusing on bathrooms means that the focus is on a little, tiny issue that obscures the larger issues of being able to use a restaurant, movie theater, etc. But eventually you do have to get specific and talk about the issue itself.
Quote from: sneakersjay on June 14, 2014, 08:04:19 AM
And maybe what will have legislators change their minds about these stupid bathroom bills is a couple of busloads of us descending on them and having us use the restrooms en mass according to our 'birth gender' and have them really see how ridiculous it is. From the Buck Angel types to the funky bois in the ladies room, and Laverne Cox beauties and regular gals in the men's room. Might be educational.
That would really show them what this is all about.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
frankly im surprised the rate isn't HIGHER then it is.
No matter what reason you might have, there is really no real need for separate restrooms as long as you have private stalls and no open urinals. Multi user unisex restrooms would be best for all.
I don't get why so many people oppose it in the first place...most people just go there to do their business, and there's pretty much nothing that you can do in a bathroom (for example, violence can happen in a bathroom, but it can also happen outside of one) that you cant do anywhere else (well, except use the bathroom, but that's a moot point :D ) I think that needs to be illustrated to people who think that men are suddenly going to start going crazy in ladies restrooms, and start doing inappropriate things, and that women will be at risk.
Quote from: Deltaforce on December 31, 2014, 02:20:05 PM
I don't get why so many people oppose it in the first place...most people just go there to do their business, and there's pretty much nothing that you can do in a bathroom (for example, violence can happen in a bathroom, but it can also happen outside of one) that you cant do anywhere else (well, except use the bathroom, but that's a moot point :D ) I think that needs to be illustrated to people who think that men are suddenly going to start going crazy in ladies restrooms, and start doing inappropriate things, and that women will be at risk.
It will be easier for a pervert to attack a woman in a strictly woman's restroom as the likelyhood of her being alone and defenseless will be greater.
The way I dress, I am expected to use the ladies' room to go to the bathroom and I would feel weird if I didn't. I just go in and find the nearest empty stall, do my business, wash up, and leave. Which is what all the other females in the rest room seem to be doing. No one questions my existence there, even though sometimes I pass and sometimes I don't. The other ladies in my family call me Michael instead of Michelle, even it the restroom, and use male pronouns. However, if we all are address as ladies or with a collective female noun or pronoun, they don't correct the person addressing us. But, I have decided that I am a lady, and will dress as one the rest of my life, no matter what anyone else thinks, and if this is all everyone else sees I will be accepted as effeminate. It helps being 68-year-old lady with long grey thinning hair. If people disapprove they keep it to themselves. We don't have a car so I ride public transportation or walk where ever I go. Most of time with the others in my family and sometimes by myself. When I do correct people in the pharmacy or at the clinic, they seem very nice about it and address me in female gender. I have inadvertently flirted in public on the bus and at bus stops with men who seem to see me only as a woman. Most of my flirting is intellectual and not of a sexual nature.
So while it seems that people when asked people oppose trans using the preferred bathroom. in practice, most people wishing to avoid a scene will let go when it is actually happening, unless something forces the issue. While I try and use the family rooms whenever possible or one seaters and go in alone, lately I have had to use larger ladies' restrooms with women of all ages. We got free tickets to a college bowl game and I took my son and his older sister's boyfriend. They expect me to use the ladies room, because I always do. I also was called into jury duty and used the ladies's restroom in the courthouse. It may just be that I am a senior citizen, I don't know. Or this is just a case of when asked most people give the traditional reply of men go in the men's room and ladies go in the ladies' room and that's it. However, in practice if someone who is not obviously the wrong gender uses the restroom, most people will not question it, and go on with their daily lives. Something has to happen for someone to question your gender.
Don't expect to many legislators especially in legislatures controlled by the conservatives to pass any bills to allow transgenders to use their preferred gender bathroom because they will be accused of turning men loose in the women's restrooms and dressing rooms. Too many people do not get the point that transsexual and transgender women are women and not men. Most people who see all people who were born with male bodies are just men who like to pretend or present themselves as women while considering their gender to be male. These men presenting themselves as women are going to invade women's spaces. I try to keep pointing out that transgender and transsexual women are women and do not think of themselves as men, and really don't want anybody else to consider them men. We are ladies, bitches, dykes, aunties, grandmothers, mothers, and full fill many social roles that other women do. We can't get pregnant or give birth to children., but we can provide the genetic material and mother our children ever day for the rest of their lives. What we need to do is accept that except for physical problems we need to incorporate these roles into our lives. Then when we go into the ladies room all others will see is another woman doing the things other women do.
So, just to set this all up, I'm still in the closet about my gender identity. I'm still living as a man, and yet, all my life, even as the supposed cis-gender male everyone thinks I am, I still had to worry about bathroom harassment. From as early as grade school, I was constantly abused and harassed in bathrooms, simply because I chose to use a stall. I did so for various reasons. One, because I was uncomfortable using a urinal and constantly noticing that the other boys were trying to look at my penis. Like, not in a sexual way, I think (it was grade school, after all), but it just felt weird. Two, I was very self-conscious about my penis because I was born with hypospadias, which is basically when your urethra is underneath the shaft, instead of on the tip. I had it surgically repaired as a kid, but unfortunately, every few years, my urethra will close up, and I have to get it reopened, which means I've had repeated surgeries on my genitals. This leads to the third reason I'd go in the stalls - all that work done makes it difficult and uncomfortable to go standing up, and even harder to control the direction of the stream. It basically means that I have to go sitting down, even with male genitalia. Needless to say, "boys will be boys" and they'd be constantly jumping the stalls, kicking in the doors, and doing everything they could to harass me, simply because I went "like a girl". I'd constantly go to teachers and any higher up that'd listen, just for them all to react the same way - complete indifference. "Oh well, boys will be boys". I can look back on all of that now and call it exactly what it was - sexual harassment. But I'll likely still get those indifferent shrugs.
The thing is, I, even now, even living in the closet as a supposed "cis-gender male", public bathrooms are a nightmare for me. For the most part, adults are less intrusive, so I don't have to worry about doors getting kicked in on me, so much, now. Except when it still happens, anyway. A few years ago, at this bar I hang at, where I generally felt safe, some drunk jerk kicked in the stall door as I was going, because he was offended at the fact that someone was going #2, in his mind. As if it was any of his business what I was doing, or he had any right to do it, but everything just flooded. All those years of harassment in school, to the point where I scheduled my entire day around when to go to the bathroom and where so I could either be alone, or left alone, all that anger, fear, frustration flooded, and I just went into shock. Fortunately, the drunk was just drunk and walked off after, and I was just there in a frozen panic, pushing the door back closed and screaming every obscenity I could think of before I could finally collect myself enough to get out. Worse yet, I coulnd't even begin to try to explain to my friends what was wrong once I came out, when they all aksed me what happened and if I was all right. I wasn't anywhere near close, and I tried so much to explain what was wrong, but there's just so much to it. How do you explain to people that you're afraid to go to the bathroom because you spent the first half of your life being taught that everyone else felt entitled to your body in some strange way, and that no one ever bothers to stand up for you when people cross the line. No one cares. You're just "overly sensitive" they say. Some pretend to understand but don't care. Others roll their eyes. And all I want is to be left alone.
One of my biggest fears about pursuing a path towards transition is that, after I trans, is this bathroom issue only going to get WORSE?! I can't even be left alone as a supposed cis-gender "male" in a men's room. How am I ever going to be able to survive as a transgender MTF trying to use a ladies' room? Or, worse yet, if these asinine laws get passed, and I'm forced into the men's room as a trans MTF? Do I have to look forward to having doors kicked in on my on a regular basis for the rest of my adult life? I thought I was past all of that. Hell, that was what I was screaming in between F and S words in that stall the night that drunk kicked that door in on me. Didn't we outgrow this stuff decades ago?
No, apparently we didn't. And that terrifies me.
My city's progressive with trans issues. By law, all new buildings have to have only gender-neutral bathrooms. And for any buildings with gendered bathrooms, you're allowed to use whichever one you identify closest with.
One time, and only one time, I was accosted by a dumb transit employee who tried to tell me I was in the wrong bathroom. But this is was in my earlier transition days, only on hormones for a few months, and still using an electric razor and no makeup. After arguing with the bigot of an employee, I finally yelled, "I'm not a man!" That settled that.
This thread reminds me how dangerous it is for people to consider that a popular vote or poll should factor in determining our basic human rights of self identity and safety. We transgender people are unlikely to win any popularity polls soon and who is next on the prejudice and discrimination list for bigots to target? I clearly see transgender people being targeted by the far right nuts as lesbian and gay people become more comfortably assimilated. Some will cynically need a group or individual to demonize and provide a them vs. us mentality, raise $ and polarize people who will not use reason, compassion and critical thinking.
Laws and unisex stalls are needed but will not change hardened hearts while education is a long slow answer. I live in the US where we had signs, in my childhood, that said things like "Whites Only." The laws have changed but racism remains too common. No compromise in defense of our basic rights and safety is acceptable. We get the chance to vote with our feet every time we need to 'go' in public places. Please vote responsibly and as well informed citizens. ;D
I like being around men anyways
Quote from: Monika1223 on February 01, 2015, 07:19:40 PM
I like being around men anyways
I don't think
anybody likes being around men in the context of a public restroom. Not even other men. Except for the creepy ones... they seem to like looking at my junk.
I swear the next time that happens, I'm just gonna turn to face them and water their shoes.
I couldn't imagine putting up with the nastiness that is the men's room after I transition. I feel rapey vibes coming off of men's room occupants even when I'm sporting a beard and dirty clothes. But... with womanly wobbly bits and a clean moisturized face? Nuh-uh. Not gonna happen. I'd rather hold my bladder.
Don't like half of Americans also believe in angels? The U.S. isn't exactly a bastion of rationality. We also have a certain paranoia about stranger violence that dates back at least to the 80s.
Quote from: Tessa James on February 01, 2015, 02:22:05 PM
This thread reminds me how dangerous it is for people to consider that a popular vote or poll should factor in determining our basic human rights of self identity and safety. We transgender people are unlikely to win any popularity polls soon and who is next on the prejudice and discrimination list for bigots to target? I clearly see transgender people being targeted by the far right nuts as lesbian and gay people become more comfortably assimilated. Some will cynically need a group or individual to demonize and provide a them vs. us mentality, raise $ and polarize people who will not use reason, compassion and critical thinking.Laws and unisex stalls are needed but will not change hardened hearts while education is a long slow answer.
Unfortunately, there are many people who do still feel like civil rights should be contingent on the outcome of a vote. We see that whenever a political body acts on these issues. That is we need strong national laws that clearly define our rights. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen any time soon in the USA where the right wing seems to be growing its influence again.
QuoteWe get the chance to vote with our feet every time we need to 'go' in public places. Please vote responsibly and as well informed citizens. ;D
That is easier said than done. I just used the women's restroom for the first time last month, and the mere thought of being 'outed' was terrifying. I can see myself as female everywhere else, but I stepped in there and it felt so wrong. I did not even wash my hands at the large and dirty facility. It was off-hours (but not empty) and I do not think I have the courage to walk in there when it is crowded. Then again, I get 'outed' every time in the men's room too, and men are more dangerous with all that testosterone, right? Old habits die hard. I would rather hold it even if that means leaking.
Quote from: Steph34 on February 03, 2015, 12:17:51 PM
Unfortunately, there are many people who do still feel like civil rights should be contingent on the outcome of a vote. We see that whenever a political body acts on these issues. That is we need strong national laws that clearly define our rights. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen any time soon in the USA where the right wing seems to be growing its influence again.
That is easier said than done. I just used the women's restroom for the first time last month, and the mere thought of being 'outed' was terrifying. I can see myself as female everywhere else, but I stepped in there and it felt so wrong. I did not even wash my hands at the large and dirty facility. It was off-hours (but not empty) and I do not think I have the courage to walk in there when it is crowded. Then again, I get 'outed' every time in the men's room too, and men are more dangerous with all that testosterone, right? Old habits die hard. I would rather hold it even if that means leaking.
That is probably a common first time experience Steph. i clearly recall literally running in and out of there which may have caused more attention;-). It gets better and you will hopefully gain confidence with practice. It is unfortunately not uncommon for some of us to 'hold it" to the point of distress and even injury. Discrimination can harm us in many ways and i think you are correct about the greater potential for danger for girls in the mens room.
This country is changing and we are making progress. There are grade school kids who, with their parents help, have successfully challenged exclusionary school bathroom rules. There is another post here about a right wing politician exploiting fears and suggesting a bounty for catching us in the 'wrong' place. Transgender people are gaining the spotlight like never before and the reactive nuts will respond. They are most likely to fade into that dust bin of history as another crackpot and hater. I just intend to go when and where I need to with dignity.
I really think we need to be clear about the how, when, and who of the interrogation process that led to these disgusting results - it's kind of pointless to get all worked up over something like this when differences in the questioning method would likely yield drastically different outcomes.
let us look at the positive side 41% dont agree that we should use the bathroom assigned to our birth gender, I am sure it would have much lower about 10 years back and soon majority will be for using the genderbathroom as per their dress, or there will only gender neutral bathrooms everywhere
Hopefully multi-user gender neutral restrooms will become the accepted standard soon. I was in large chain store the other day and had to use the restroom. There was only stall in the men's room and some guy was camped out in there. I really had to pee and wished that it was possible for me to use the women's facility but that was not likely.
Quote from: mac1 on February 07, 2015, 09:19:47 PM
Hopefully multi-user gender neutral restrooms will become the accepted standard soon. I was in large chin store the other day and had to use the restroom. There was only stall in the men's room and some guy was camped out in there. I really had to pee and wished that it was possible for me to use the women's facility but that was not likely.
I hear Jay Leno shops there.
Quote from: Jill F on February 07, 2015, 09:23:41 PM
I hear Jay Leno shops there.
Typo shoul have been "large chain store" :laugh:
This is really an issue used in fear mongering. In every women's restroom you don't see anything. There are stalls which protect privacy from anyone but a peeping Tom. My skirt covers my private parts so nobody see's them and from pushing my penis straight into tuck there is little to see. The only visible thing to out me as quite possibly being a male are my size thirteen feet. The basic rule while being in the ladies's room is to not do anything that might be interpreted as being male. Don't stand to pee. If there are only one or two stalls in a bathroom you are familiar with and you see a lot of ladies or young girls going in and out, don't go in and stand in the crowd of women waiting to use the restroom. Wait until it empties. If the clerks in the places you shop at see you entering the men's restroom one day and the ladies the next they may come to question your gender. Don't use the restrooms in places where you have had problems passing as a woman. Would you enter a restroom after you saw a bunch of armed individuals in an open carry state go into the restroom or would you wait until they have left. To survive in life as either a male or female you have to use your common sense.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 12, 2014, 06:20:48 AM
Polls like this do not gauge people's opinion. They have to do more with the wording of the question.
If the question were, "do you want males, including transgender males, to be using a woman's restroom", I'm sure they would have gotten a vastly different response.
People, THIS IS OUR FAULT.
We're assuming people are born knowing about and understanding our bathroom issues. We assume people have thought about it. We assume that if they haven't, they're narrow minded bigots who can't be reached.
Well, they don't, they haven't, and they aren't.
People haven't thought about this because WE'VE SAT ON OUR BUTTS AND REFUSED TO EDUCATE THEM. Newsflash: People aren't going to understand our bathroom issues unless we MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND. We need to explain the situation. If people don't understand that it doesn't make sense for us to use the bathroom associated with our birth sex, it's because WE HAVEN'T GIVEN THEM THE FACTS!
Many people have never knowingly met a trans person who passes. Their image of trans women are the caricatures they've seen in the media and the occasional non-passing woman they might have noticed in public. Their image of transguys is probably nil, since they generally pass and aren't portrayed in media at all.
And I guarantee that the cis person is very, very rare who has sat down and asked himself/herself what it must be like to be living as woman everywhere for every purpose but be forced to use the men's restroom (or vice versa).
Alright, I'll get down from my soap box before I fall off and break something.
While I agree that we do need to educate people more on trans related issues, there are some people that are set in their ways regardless and will not change.
For example, while at work most people are okay with me using the women's restrooms, however there is a 60 year old russian lady that works as a Porter that still freaks out when she sees me in there. She's not going to change her opinion or her views regardless. She will not understand because of her culture and her background. But..there's nothing she can do about it either. So..yeah.
Quote from: michelle on February 09, 2015, 12:17:26 AM
This is really an issue used in fear mongering. In every women's restroom you don't see anything. There are stalls which protect privacy from anyone but a peeping Tom. My skirt covers my private parts so nobody see's them and from pushing my penis straight into tuck there is little to see. The only visible thing to out me as quite possibly being a male are my size thirteen feet. The basic rule while being in the ladies's room is to not do anything that might be interpreted as being male. Don't stand to pee. If there are only one or two stalls in a bathroom you are familiar with and you see a lot of ladies or young girls going in and out, don't go in and stand in the crowd of women waiting to use the restroom. Wait until it empties. If the clerks in the places you shop at see you entering the men's restroom one day and the ladies the next they may come to question your gender. Don't use the restrooms in places where you have had problems passing as a woman. Would you enter a restroom after you saw a bunch of armed individuals in an open carry state go into the restroom or would you wait until they have left. To survive in life as either a male or female you have to use your common sense.
Edited,fixed a couple of typoes that could confuse readers :)
Quote from: michelle on February 09, 2015, 12:17:26 AM
Would you enter a restroom after you saw a bunch of armed individuals in an open carry state go into the restroom or would you wait until they have left.
Depending on how they conduct themselves I'd either tell them they are outright morons or congratulate them. Some of these people may know me though. ;)
Quote from: Felix on February 01, 2015, 08:36:53 PM
Don't like half of Americans also believe in angels? The U.S. isn't exactly a bastion of rationality. We also have a certain paranoia about stranger violence that dates back at least to the 80s.
Whoa there. Because someone has a religious belief that makes them somehow irrational? I don't like where this is headed at all.
For the record, I believe in angels. I also have an advanced engineering degree and have forgotten more science than some atheists I know have learned. What does that make me?
12 state police agencies did records searches and not one single crime or complaint was reported concerning trans people who use gender appropriate rest rooms being inappropriate. However, they did find cases of violence against trans people using the gender inappropriate rest rooms. Hmmmm? I guess the fear mongers lose! :)
Just a complaint, but I think it is really degrading that the level of public discourse around transgender issues is at whether or not we even have the right to go pee in an often filthy public restroom or change our sweaty clothing in a smelly, though gender appropriate locker room. Public facilities are usually disgusting and it is degrading that it requires activism in order to have the right to use something that most people prefer not to use in the first place.
BTW, with locker rooms, why don't people understand that we don't really to go parading around the locker room naked (something that most cis people would prefer not to do). It is bad enough that I have to see man-junk when I go to the bathroom, take a shower, or get dressed, so why do people think someone with gender dysphoria would ever want other people to their junk.
The next time one of these neanderthals in a state legislator trys to ban trans people from gender-appropriate restrooms, we should show up at the statehouse en masse and give them what they want. Bearded trans men (especially post-op) can use the ladies room and leave the toilet seat in terrible condition and not flush (why on earth do men leave a disgusting mess and not flush in public restrooms). Us ladies can use the men's room, post-op women can attempt to use the urinal and/or leave maxi pads/pantyliners laying around the stalls and all of us can do what women do best in the bathroom, which is take a really, really, long time. The moment Buck angel shows up, these neanderthals will be changing there tune.
I still think that the only real solution is to eliminate all gender specific public restrooms. Make them all multi-user unisex with adequately private stalls. This will save costs and space, and equalize waiting times. It will also eliminate the need for an additional single-user unisex or family restroom.
I think the solution to the bathroom problem is not to judge people by who they are, but judge them by their behavior. If people are exposing themselves to other's deliberately and not minding their manners, then they should be arrested. If trans women are using the restroom like any other woman is, and minding their own business, then they should be left alone. The same goes for trans men in the men's room.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 12, 2014, 06:20:48 AM
We're assuming people are born knowing about and understanding our bathroom issues. We assume people have thought about it. We assume that if they haven't, they're narrow minded bigots who can't be reached.
Well, they don't, they haven't, and they aren't.
WE HAVEN'T GIVEN THEM THE FACTS!
And I guarantee that the cis person is very, very rare who has sat down and asked himself/herself what it must be like to be living as woman everywhere for every purpose but be forced to use the men's restroom (or vice versa).
Alright, I'll get down from my soap box before I fall off and break something.
Ha ha ha, no I think you are very right. The Ladies/Gents and nonbinary folks of all those selfie "me in the mens/womwn's bathroom" series are the ones making a GREAT point and making people think. I only wish I was more pumped up on T just so I could sport beefy hairy arms and take some of my own with some girlie friends.
Cis people have never been forced to feel the things we feel. Many cisgender folk can consider thinsg from a trans person's perspective but unless they have been exposed (ha ha, pun not intended) to the idea, how can you expect them to immediately agree? Even if you can only do so online, being visable and educating people who know nothing about Transgender issues is the way to ease these problems.
Also... though the polling companies MIGHT be trying to get an accurate reading, theose numbers are dismally small and I'd like to know what the demographics of the people they are polling. If they are just randomly calling phone numbers- who usually has the time and energy to deal with telemarketers?? Older, more conservative people or those who are highly opinioned or who are just bored or don't knwo any better to hang up the phone... So in all honesty the survey is probably about 90% BS!!! XD
Quote from: mac1 on February 23, 2015, 12:03:11 PM
I still think that the only real solution is to eliminate all gender specific public restrooms. Make them all multi-user unisex with adequately private stalls. This will save costs and space, and equalize waiting times. It will also eliminate the need for an additional single-user unisex or family restroom.
Have to say: I live in a small liberal town where a lot of buildings can't be retrofitted to have more bathrooms. Most places have one tiny gender neutral bathroom. It's cost efficient for the businesses and makes my life easier
Using the bathroom that agrees with your gender identification is a matter of knowing your bathrooms, common sense, and observing how busy and who has entered the bathroom. I know at the fast food restaurants, Wendies, McDonald's, Krystal, etc., that the womens bathrooms have two encloses stalls, one large one for wheelchairs which has a toilet and sink and one smaller stall. If a bunch of other women or young children have entered the bathroom, it makes no sense for me to go into the restroom and stand around with the other girls because I run the risk of not being accepted as a woman by one of the other women. When I do enter I enter the wheel chair bathroom because it affords the most privacy for everything I need to do. I leave quickly and quietly. If you are in an urban area most people are not looking too closely anyway. When I presented as a male, I usually used the stalls in the men's room and sat down to pee, because I had bashful plumbing. Walmart has a multitude of stalls and you can usually find one empty. When you are in the ladies room behave like a lady, and in the restroom behave like a man. Most of the time you will pass, if people in the store have never seen you as anything but a man or a woman in urban areas. Small rural towns everybody knows, and life depends upon how well you are accepted and if you are seen as a threat. Don't use any restrooms in places where you have had difficuties. I have used ladies restrooms in clinics, courthouses, elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, fast food places, gas and food stations, etc and never had a problem. However, no one ever sees me as anything else than a plain dressed little old lady like you see in my avatar. I am also retired and don't work so I don't have to worry about passing in the workplace. If your inner voice tells you to be careful, be careful. Remember guys act more brassy than women do, unless as a woman you can project, that I am large and in charge. But, in that case you had better not be showing two many physical male physical characteristics. You need to act like a diva and not John Wayne.
Also it helps as a trans lady if you travel with other gals who accept you. As a trans man it helps if you enter the restroom as one of the guys. If you have children then you need to behave in your appropriate gender parenting role, and be prepared for your kid to out you, by her calling out, "Dad!" Then just pretend like she does this all the time.
I don't understand why there can't just be more unisex bathrooms. So if there's not a unisex bathroom that means once I'm male looking and am passing I can't just go in the male bathroom and sit down in a stall? Right now I look like a woman wearing men's clothing and I shop often and when I try on clothes and go into a female changing room no one questions. I'm not sure what will happen when I do though.
Quote from: michelle on April 06, 2015, 11:39:17 PM
I think the solution to the bathroom problem is not to judge people by who they are, but judge them by their behavior. If people are exposing themselves to other's deliberately and not minding their manners, then they should be arrested. If trans women are using the restroom like any other woman is, and minding their own business, then they should be left alone. The same goes for trans men in the men's room.
That is why we should have multi-user unisex restrooms with adequately private stalls.
I haven't even began T and for the last year or so I have been questioned, taunted, yelled and stared at whenever I use a womens restroom just for the simple facts that my hair is very short and I have been blessed with a naturally male-appearing build. I have been talked Sh** to once for using a mens restroom. These days I just use whichever I find more convenient and I just say to them "hey, at least I wasn't creepily staring through the cracks watching you pee like your 5-year old was just doing to me." Life is too short to explain my journey to every person that seems to find a problem with which restroom I'm using and not everyone is going to be educated enough to get it.
Trying to regulate which restrooms trans kids are using is going to end up blowing over once they realize what kind of problems it creates in the social aspects of the kids that this it is being enforced upon.. As if growing up isn't hard enough, why put the young trans community on the spot like that? Live and let live, America.
At work I hate hate hate using the men's bathroom. There's only one stall and usually occupied, or if not occupied, left a disaster. The toilet left unflushed, pee and feces everywhere, toilet paper and seat covers all over the place like a whirlwind had just happened. Vulgar messages written in sharpie all over the walls, also there are way too many partitions and cracks on the enclosure itself.
Every time i had to use it I always went in with gloves, cleaner, and wads of paper towels, I would clean it up nice, scrub the toilet inside and out before using it, as well as using a bunch of the seat covers before I would do my business.
Due to one of our employees getting sexually assaulted in the women's bathroom late at night, the guy ran before anyone was able to do anything. But anyways there are new locks on both the outer door and inner door to each restroom with individual codes for each. No one is allowed in without any of us to open the doors. As well as the store is now going to be closing at 10 pm instead of midnight, due to this.
The new locks are a godsend for myself, so I feel a little more security so there wouldn't be any disturbed potty breaks, it doesn't help the whole disaster toilet though.
I was told by my manager, as soon as I do express myself as Kate, I have full use of going to the women's bathroom, but to just make sure I cover my bases with HR first.
In the scheme of it all, in smaller drug stores and with how spacious each bathroom is, I don't see how it would be difficult to isolate two separate individual gender neutral bathrooms per each "facility". Of course there would be needing of rerouted plumbing for the secondary sink in a secondary location, or even have a slight lobby like station with isolated rooms to do business in. Of course remodeling something as such would require major funding, and a lot of time to implement.
On a separate note, being military, I've seen some interesting layouts of bathrooms while being in training. As such the women's bathrooms, of course having countless stalls, but at the same time, also having a wall of pure urinals still in tact and in working condition. It must have been easier to not need to reroute or block off certain plumbing when construction of the bathrooms and other sort of remodels.
Let's all climb aboard the choo choo train to happiness
Kateā„
I use the ladies room all the time, in schools, in the county courthouse, at my clinic, the football stadium where a Super Bowl was held once, and in all the stores.
I try to come and go quickly, and I always keep my privates covered and use the wheelchair stall because it is big and has its own sink and allows more privacy. I do have a problem with big feet.
I will not go into ladies' restrooms where they are extremely busy and where women are standing around waiting for a stall because that would give other women too much of a chance to look me over too closely.
Being 68 and a broken-toothed old lady, I am invisible to many people. Also, I never dress and will never dress in male fashion again, so all anybody sees is an eccentric old lady whose clothes are mostly mismatched.
Advantages that I have are that my facial hair is very light brown to blond to gray so I never appear to have a 5 o'clock shadow and my Adams apple is not pronounced. My skin tans nicely and my complexion is fair.
I live in a warm state and I don't have a car having to walk most places that I go, I pretty much stay tanned. Also though I never was called a sissy, I never have been taken seriously as a male and didn't attempt to be so.
I tend to think polls like this are biased toward one particular result, due to the wording: "preferred gender". Although it is a term many of us use, and might indeed be the best available one at the moment, "preferred" seems as capricious to me. I "prefer" salmon to tuna when I have some sushi, but hell, I can take either one. I don't "prefer" to live as a particular gender. And that's someone who is fairly fluid speaking; for those of us who are completely MTF or FTM, it is of course a thousand times more inaccurate. The term is falling out of favor when used with respect to sexual orientation (few would consider it right to say someone "prefers" to be gay; they just are, even if they are abstinate) but maybe we should come up with something better to describe our situation so that others will better understand. Physical gender vs Psychological gender? Birth gender vs Correct/corrected gender? "... someone who uses the bathroom in keeping with their psychological or corrected gender" sounds a lot better to me than "preferred."
As I am post surgical 33 years I would feel very uncomfortable using the bathroom of my birth gender. Our education problem is a simple one. We go to the bathroom because we gotta go. Once our business is done, we leave. We have no interest in sexual conquest or peeping. These are all stories made up by a public with an overactive imagination that are not based in reality.
The people who would do harm or spy on others in the bathroom are not transgender and we are in agreement with the public that these people should be kept out of the wrong bathroom.
Just think of how uncomfortable it would make men feel if someone passing well as female walked in to the mens bathroom. No, the public hasn't put much though into this one.
What I've always wondered about these bloody bathroom bills is: how can they possibly enforce it?
Are they going to go by legal gender, like on your driver's license? Are people going to have to carry ID on them to go to the bathroom? Where I live, I can get that legally changed, so does that mean all their silliness suddenly isn't an issue anymore because I got the papers changed? Will they have people stationed outside every public bathroom? Are they gonna grope people at the door or peek down their pants? What would they do with intersex people? Are they gonna flag down every person who doesn't meet their idea of what a man or woman is "supposed" to look like? Guarantee some cis people are going to get questioned, and they'll be ticked off. (sarcasm How dare someone think they're trans! The shame! /sarcasm ) What then? The first cis person who gets stopped and questioned in a restroom would absolutely flip, mark my words.
Quote from: Pax Fidelis on July 20, 2015, 02:55:25 PM
What I've always wondered about these bloody bathroom bills is: how can they possibly enforce it?
Are they going to go by legal gender, like on your driver's license? Are people going to have to carry ID on them to go to the bathroom? Where I live, I can get that legally changed, so does that mean all their silliness suddenly isn't an issue anymore because I got the papers changed? Will they have people stationed outside every public bathroom? Are they gonna grope people at the door or peek down their pants? What would they do with intersex people? Are they gonna flag down every person who doesn't meet their idea of what a man or woman is "supposed" to look like? Guarantee some cis people are going to get questioned, and they'll be ticked off. (sarcasm How dare someone think they're trans! The shame! /sarcasm ) What then? The first cis person who gets stopped and questioned in a restroom would absolutely flip, mark my words.
It's already happened. There's an article posted on the forums about it.
Doesn't doing this type of polling increase the awareness among Cis gendered people that transsexual people might be using the same bathrooms as they are and increase their anxiety level. In many cases you don't perceive what you are not aware of. You don't recognize trans individuals when you are not looking for them and don't have your radar turned in that direction. I use the ladies room all the time now, but I never linger, I do my business and leave. I know a lot depends on where you live on rather it's a rural or urban area. It also depends upon how well known you are in your community and if people who really care about the issue live there.
When it comes to bathroom safety everyone should be careful and scout out the situation before you enter the bathroom. Bathrooms can be dangerous because they are just plain lousy with pathogens microbic and human and sometimes in places like Florida where I live there is a slight possibility of having a python slithering out of the toilet.
Just use the restroom where you are comfortable and feel safe. If you are in the lady's room act like a lady and in the men's room act like a man, unless you are dressed like a lady, then there's no point acting like a man. Use privacy stalls and keep your privates covered and you will probably be safe unless you are unlucky and you happen to share the restroom with that one bigot who is minding everybody else's business butt their own. (I meant to write butt with two t's.)
One of the barriers to all of us transitioning and being comfortable with ourselves is worrying too much about what other people think. Lots of people only care about what they think and what anybody else thinks is just fly poop on the wall.
Let sleeping bathroom police lie. What people are against and what they will ignore in practice are often two totally different things.
I use the men's room all the time and use the stall. Have yet to have anyone confront me. Luckily most guys don't even pay attention in the bathroom either.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. There are people who don't believe transgender is a thing. It isn't our responsibility to educate people, that's what laws and governments and schools are for. We could argue in circles about the systemic failures that perpetuate marginalization against us, or just know that empirical evidence proves that the places who have passed laws allowing transpeople to use the restroom matching their identity have had no problems. Bigots want to make people fear us, it's a smokescreen to hide their treatment of us.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: michelle on September 14, 2015, 02:09:59 PM
You don't recognize trans individuals when you are not looking for them and don't have your radar turned in that direction.
Well, not everyone blends in, right? There are those among us who are quite obviously transgender, and they deserve our support as well.
I heard they were talking about changing to unisex bathrooms. That is the way it should go. But, prob too extreme for the US of A.
Hello everyone.
People are conditioned at an early age to use the one marked boys and the other girls. Beats me what the problem is as I haven`t seen bare female genitalia in any female bathroom. Of course, many boys have sneaked a quick peek at the fellow next to us at the urinal. If you want lack of privacy, try the military!! Think of the heads (bathroom) in Full Metal Jacket!!
I have not had any problem (yet) using a women`s public washroom but I know there is some resistance to it where I volunteer. To ease the tension, right now it`s a long walk across the hangar floor to the male dominated aircrew flight room bathroom or the not so clean one (oil, grease) in the aircraft engineering area. Since I don`t wear a coverall, it can be hazardous to my clothes. I often do wonder what the woman next to me would say if she knew I was beside her in the next stall? Someone in the office I learned didn`t like me using theirs as I`m a "volunteer", not an employee. I'll probably resign as a volunteer from the venue sometime soon.
I do what I have to do in there, don`t try to make eye contact, maybe brush my hair quickly and get out but I am sure some people might suspect I am not a natal female.
To show how people are conditioned, I was at an event with port-a-potties. (I hate those things even more as a woman!) A number were cordoned off and marked as men the others as women. The line at the women`s one was long but no line at the ones marked men. A lady said that she was going to use the men`s ones and her friend said it was marked men. The lady said to her friend, "you really think they are any different inside"? The line soon disappeared and no one called the potty police.
The big problem is lack of education and understanding on the public's point. Many still think being transgender is a choice we make. Like what we will wear today as opposed to our internal feelings of who we are.
As has been said, probably a good number of those people have shared a bathroom with a transgender person and didn't even suspect it. Nothing happened to them but I sure wouldn't want to use a men's washroom in a bar as a transgender woman!
Love,
Clare
One great piece of news is on strangely shortly on the heels of this survey a Bill was submitted in FL to ban bathroom use based on DL or passport gender. Hurray for enlightened lawmakers who shot the bill down later in the year both in the state house and state senate. Baby steps but someone is listening.
"We need to keep educating people..."