As you may notice by my icon under my name I am news staff, and throughout my days I go through lots of articles on the topics of trans, gender and sex. Something I've noticed is that the majority of reports about Gender Equality focus 100% on the natal Male/Female balance and make no mention of any other part about gender. Some articles even seem to claim that gender equality is very present today.
Surely Gender Equality will never be a reality until all gender variances are officially recognized by all levels of society?
Not just natal female and male...
I think it's just a matter of going out there and getting our voices heard, which luckily has happened a lot recently <3 ,
For those that identify as non-binary though, It will be very difficult to reach the point of 'equality', just from the fact that, the reality is that those that present as truly androgynous, gender-queer or any other variation of Gender are in the minority, of the minority in the trans* community.
The simple truth that there are so few people living that way, and even fewer in the public eye, means that it could be really hard to get to that stage :(
Yeah, well that's why groups got equality in the order they did, it seems to have naturally happened in order of how many people are affected.
I fear Intersex people may also have a much harder fight for recognition and equality too as there seems to be less visibility. My friend has spent her life being forced to go through the trans pathway as she is 47 xxy, but the people she has to deal with took the opinion that if you have a Y chromosome you are male. And, well, it just isnt as simple as that, sex and gender is complicated.
Thats true, its also Why it Can be problematic if you have Laws agenst diskriminations base on sex since Many only focus on the binary and cisgenders People.
OK, honest to God, I see no gender equality anywhere I look. I'm not saying there isn't inequality but in my area there are more females are in a lot higher positions in corporations and companies than males. This is my observations of cisgenders though. Transgenders still get the same ol' crap though.
I think gender equality normally deals with the binary system because that's currently the dominant power structure-while it's not an encompassing moment, it's covering the needs of most, though not all members of society...besides, something tells me that once women are considered truly equal to men, current structures surrounding gender will rapidly crumble-besides, the movement isn't entirely exclusionary. Transfemminism is becoming a more and more mainstream ideal. Especially for younger people, the end may not be near, but it's certainly well in sight.
There will not be gender equality until there are no genders... :-\
Quote from: sad panda on June 12, 2014, 10:08:30 PM
There will not be gender equality until there are no genders... :-\
There will always be genders. You seem to be confusing "gender" with "gender roles."
Who's to say that there will always be gender? There isn't really much biological basis for the existence of gender (outside physical traits, and hormonal effects on the brain). I dream of a world without it, personally.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 12, 2014, 11:10:49 PM
Who's to say that there will always be gender? There isn't really much biological basis for the existence of gender (outside physical traits, and hormonal effects on the brain). I dream of a world without it, personally.
As long as we develop in an organic womb where we are exposed to hormonal washes, there will always be gender. Gender isn't something that can stop existing. Kids who have been operated on to "correct" ambiguous genitalia growing up clearly the "wrong gender" they're being raised as are enough evidence of that - David Reimer being an unfortunate example - on top of dozens of recent peer-reviewed studies.
Gender roles are different.
Well, I'd argue that what you're referring to as gender is really just "mental sex"-which sex is indicated in the brain's internal map. I suppose it all comes down to how you define gender. I think of gender as being a lot more than which body you expect yourself to have. So while it's obvious that this exists, masculinity and femininity, the categorization of anything besides a brain's map of the body as gender isn't real outside of a social context.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 12, 2014, 11:36:36 PM
Well, I'd argue that what you're referring to as gender is really just "mental sex"-which sex is indicated in the brain's internal map. I suppose it all comes down to how you define gender. I think of gender as being a lot more than which body you expect yourself to have. So while it's obvious that this exists, masculinity and femininity, the categorization of anything besides a brain's map of the body as gender isn't real outside of a social context.
Mental sex and gender generally have the same definition, so it's possible we're misunderstanding each other.
Ahhh, probably-I've heard the word tossed around so many times, the definition has been lost beneath a sea of identity politics!
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 01:53:36 AM
Ahhh, probably-I've heard the word tossed around so many times, the definition has been lost beneath a sea of identity politics!
It certainly has; I read your post again, and I agree with you now that I understand what you're saying. I tend to use "gender" and "gender identity" interchangeably.
Quote from: Declan. on June 12, 2014, 10:48:16 PM
There will always be genders. You seem to be confusing "gender" with "gender roles."
No I am not. But I don't believe there can be gender withiut gender roles... That would just be called sex. Sure, maybe there is mental sex vs physical sex, idk. but I personally don't believe in gender identity and stuff and have not seen any evidence that there is some kind of gender wiring in the brain beyond normal sex dimorphism.
When I was reading articles for news, "gender" often was used as shorthand for "female." That wasn't so much upsetting as it was counterproductive. I had to be very specific in searches in order to get news that was actually relevant to transgender people.
Intersex as a category is a touchy issue for me. I do not believe there is any noteworthy difference between intersex people and transgender people, and the gatekeeping between the two identities is weird.
I find it frustrating that anyone is of the opinion that gender equality exists anywhere. It's not even ambiguous. The only people who believe we have achieved gender equality are those who are comfortable, and do not themselves get reminded of the imbalance very often. That's like a white person in a white neighborhood saying that race relations are fine.
For what it's worth, regarding genders and gender roles, I'm sure that erasing gender would not help me. I feel like a real man, a normal guy, and I don't want my malehood invalidated by abolishment of my gender orientation. The idea is noble enough, but not practical.
Some people have a similar argument about marriage equality - they say they don't believe in marriage, so we shouldn't be fighting for it. Gender and marriage both could do with some open discussion, but I'm still a man and I still want the right to marry another person. It's not fair for any of us to impose our definitions on people who can't adhere to them.
Quote from: Felix on June 13, 2014, 02:20:13 AM
Intersex as a category is a touchy issue for me. I do not believe there is any noteworthy difference between intersex people and transgender people, and the gatekeeping between the two identities is weird.
What do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.
QuoteFor what it's worth, regarding genders and gender roles, I'm sure that erasing gender would not help me. I feel like a real man, a normal guy, and I don't want my malehood invalidated by abolishment of my gender orientation. The idea is noble enough, but not practical.
Malehood is different than manhood. Man is a gender, male is a sex... umh, but why would you care about being a man if it ceased to mean anything anyway? If it was just a word with no definition? Do you need to be recognized as a man or as a male? What's problematic is "man" can only exist in the first place as defined by oppressive stereotypes. If it's not about exclusionary stereotypes it's either completely arbitrary... or redundant (sex is enough to describe it.)
I think what he's saying is that being transgender is also a medical condition...an identity is something you choose to take up for yourself, and nobody should ever permanently alter their body beyond the odd piercing in the name of identity. I'm fairly sure that the only difference between someone like me and an intersexual person is that my condition exists within the structures of my brain, and for them it would exist between their legs. I know it's not a popular position, but the only way to justify the use of Hormones, SRS, etc. for people like us is to acknowledge that dyspohria is a very real medical condition.
And just to weigh in here as well, if you were born into a world without gender, you might want your body to be a certain way, but you wouldn't think anything of "malehood". I suppose for all of us who have been born into it, the gender complex is comforting, but I still think the world would be better off without it.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 02:54:55 AM
I think what he's saying is that being transgender is also a medical condition...an identity is something you choose to take up for yourself, and nobody should ever permanently alter their body beyond the odd piercing in the name of identity. I'm fairly sure that the only difference between someone like me and an intersexual person is that my condition exists within the structures of my brain, and for them it would exist between their legs. I know it's not a popular position, but the only way to justify the use of Hormones, SRS, etc. for people like us is to acknowledge that dyspohria is a very real medical condition.
But hormones, SRS, etc are already justified and accessible to anyone who claims to need them... there is no issue there. Trans people are fighting this fight that they already won a long time ago... I think if you needed medical proof to get those things it would result in EXCLUDING a lot of trans people from transition.
Meanwhile intersex children are still being mutilated without the ability to consent. Calling trans people intersex is just overshadowing people with medically diagnosable DSDs for no reason.
Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different. no need to overshadow people in need of attention.
Sat on a panel at a Diversity Conference earlier in the week - got to love how quickly diversity was conflated with gender equity and then in turn conflated with binary gender equity. After some spirited discussion of definitions, norms etc the consensus emerged that this whole discussion needs to be reset in terms of addressing equity for individuals and understanding diversity of individuals in all of its myriad forms. Frankly gender is too frequently appropriated and used as a stalking horse by one special interest group after another. With the emerging view that there are as many genders as there are people we may just have an opportunity to reframe, reset and sensibly address real issues defined according to an agreed taxonomy.
Aisle
Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 03:01:33 AM
Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience,
Because trans heavily involves brain anatomy, and that we are a very long way away from mapping the brain fully, our ability to observe the medical cause is limited, but that doesn't make it any less valid. The whole, we don't understand the brain therefore it must be a mental illness, cop out just doesn't cut it.
There have been a few small victories towards finding the medical cause over the last decade or so, such as an initial identification of possible genes that can cause things, and top level identification of the size of parts of the brain. Sure a full picture cannot be drawn until we can map and understand every connection, but its a start.
Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
What do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.
I think differentiating between transgender and intersex by calling intersex a medical condition while transgender is not is incredibly offensive and not the kind of thing I'd expect to hear on a support forum for transgender people. Gender dysphoria is a formal medical diagnosis that is every bit as real and physical as being intersex. The brain is a physical part of the body. As a transgender male, I am diagnosed with a medical condition and am going through medical treatment, it's not just an identity.
QuoteMeanwhile intersex children are still being mutilated without the ability to consent. Calling trans people intersex is just overshadowing people with medically diagnosable DSDs for no reason.
Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different. no need to overshadow people in need of attention.
This is false. There are numerous studies proving a biological basis for gender dysphoria, including brain scans that show that transgender individuals have the brain patterns of the gender they should have been born as. The "subjective experience" you speak of as if it's the only criteria by which gender dysphoria can be diagnosed is no different from the "subjective experience" used to diagnose a myriad of other medical conditions.
For example, I have bipolar disorder. Did I have to get a brain scan or blood test to get diagnosed? No, my psychiatrist looked at my lifelong medical history, interviewed me personally, consulted the DSM V to compare my symptoms with the official criteria of the disorder, and made her diagnosis because it is a physical condition that originates in the brain and presents with consistent, medically verifiable symptoms. By your logic, my disorder shouldn't be lumped in with "medically diagnosable" conditions like Celiac Disease or Cerebral Palsy because it's taking attention away from people who are "really" sick. You may not think that gender dysphoria is diagnosable, but the medical community very much disagrees.
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 12, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
What you just said about your friend being forced to go through the trans* pathway because she is 47 XXY makes me wonder something. Given that I am XY and also that I was born with a vagina and labeled female at birth, would I still be forced down this trans pathway if I were to transition to male? Or would I be automatically given surgeries and T and everything I need to do that because of my chromosomes? I would love to see the look of confusion and ignorance on some insurance pencil pusher's face if I were to pursue insurance coverage for a transition to male given my male genotype.
I am not sure of that and it may also depends on where you live. I know where I live that people who are intersex get like a "free pass" to transition so to speak so many transgender are very interesteed in being dignosed, im not sure if it only for certain types or for all types of intersex which you can prove? I just know I got a friend who is trans and intersex and since it very difficult to gain permission like a normal trans person he was told he should just prove he was intersex and then it would be alot more easy for him to get permission as an advice. I think it so because the goverment is pretty binary here and there not interesteed in people being "somehow in the middle" whenever its due to transition or due to how you where born.
so if you are transgender without any intersex condition then they will try to make sure you are either 100% woman or man and go all the way, or convince you that it better you stay in your curent gender if you are not all that binary. But if you are intersex and you can somehow say "im already 10%-50%-60% male/female or whatever to say to convince them, then they will think that they should help you being fixed into one binary gender of male or female.
it all about binary as I see it, but I dont have so many exemples beside my friend and another guy I talked to because we dont really have an intersex comunity here so its difficult to gain informations.
as said this probably depends also alot where you live and other facts as well.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 13, 2014, 03:08:34 AM
Because trans heavily involves brain anatomy, and that we are a very long way away from mapping the brain fully, our ability to observe the medical cause is limited, but that doesn't make it any less valid. The whole, we don't understand the brain therefore it must be a mental illness, cop out just doesn't cut it.
There have been a few small victories towards finding the medical cause over the last decade or so, such as an initial identification of possible genes that can cause things, and top level identification of the size of parts of the brain. Sure a full picture cannot be drawn until we can map and understand every connection, but its a start.
Yeah but even if we could brain scan, would we just use that tech to deny people HRT that could get it from the system now? And transgender has a complex treatment that you could never do pre-emptively, it's too invasive. So no amount of further medical recognition is going to help transgender people without some serious precedents.
Meanwhile we can screen babies for most intersex conditions. They are terms that refer to categorically different things and I don't understand why trans people need that label too. They're approaching it as if not being intersex hurts their validity, which is ridiculous.
Quote from: Klaus on June 13, 2014, 03:15:55 AM
I think differentiating between transgender and intersex by calling intersex a medical condition while transgender is not is incredibly offensive and not the kind of thing I'd expect to hear on a support forum for transgender people. Gender dysphoria is a formal medical diagnosis that is every bit as real and physical as being intersex. The brain is a physical part of the body. As a transgender male, I am diagnosed with a medical condition and am going through medical treatment, it's not just an identity.
Oh, eesh. you decide what to get offended over, not me... if you look back at my quote you might notice that i just differentiated intersex from just being an identity, i never said being trans is not a medical condition. I think it's mildly offensive that trans people consistently try to appropriate the intersex label, which will not benefit them, when they generally don't care about, advocate for or understand the needs of intersex people.
Though yeah, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, transgender is a huge umbrella term. And it's not medically or practically similar to intersex, but that doesn't invalidate it. This is the problem. You can't take the intersex label just because not having it makes you feel invalid. Trans people don't need to be called intersexed, and some trans people might even find that offensive, cause intersex implies an incomplete sexual development and is not primarily about the brain. Trans people become sexually mature. Again, just very different conditions, intersex is already a pretty broad umbrella term to begin with. Neither is more valid, tough one is more medically understood, but... anyway, they are very different. It would be intellectually lazy to call trans people intersex.
QuoteThis is false. There are numerous studies proving a biological basis for gender dysphoria, including brain scans that show that transgender individuals have the brain patterns of the gender they should have been born as. The "subjective experience" you speak of as if it's the only criteria by which gender dysphoria can be diagnosed is no different from the "subjective experience" used to diagnose a myriad of other medical conditions.
For example, I have bipolar disorder. Did I have to get a brain scan or blood test to get diagnosed? No, my psychiatrist looked at my lifelong medical history, interviewed me personally, consulted the DSM V to compare my symptoms with the official criteria of the disorder, and made her diagnosis because it is a physical condition that originates in the brain and presents with consistent, medically verifiable symptoms. By your logic, my disorder shouldn't be lumped in with "medically diagnosable" conditions like Celiac Disease or Cerebral Palsy because it's taking attention away from people who are "really" sick. You may not think that gender dysphoria is diagnosable, but the medical community very much disagrees.
You are filling in those assumptions though... you're projecting. I never said anything about being "really" sick. Or about validity. It's not about validity at all, so....
I mean, the fact that you assume I'm invalidating you by calling you not intersex speaks volumes to why you want to be called intersex.
Gender dysphoria CANNOT be handled like an intersex condition. It's not even similar, and beyond that I
it has no clinical picture, no warning signs, no identifiable genetic component, mystery age of onset, vague and variable symptoms beyond literally claiming to have it, and needs a highly individualized course of treatment. Of course it's valid, but it is not an intersex condition. Nuh uh. And people with gender dysphoria can only be hurt by gaining the intersex label. It won't fix fears of invalidity either.
Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
no identifiable genetic component
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15045-maletofemale-transsexualism-gene-found.html
QuoteThe work "supports the notion that transsexualism has a biological basis rather than being due to psychosocial factors in early childhood," he says. "However the finding does not explain all male-to-female transsexuals, suggesting that multiple genetic factors are involved."
QuoteHarley agrees that many more genes related to male-to-female transsexualism probably remain to be discovered.
QuoteA better understanding of this would also help in assigning sex to children born with ambiguous genitalia, which is a much more common condition than transsexualism, Harley says.
Please stop spreading misinformation.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 13, 2014, 09:00:26 AM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15045-maletofemale-transsexualism-gene-found.html
k, but it is far from clinically relevant
By the way, if that's what I think it is, that was a study on the number of CAG repeats, which is a normal variation of the androgen receptor gene, and the difference from cis men was very mild. Basically those results mean that MTFs are on average (not consistently on an individual level) a tiny bit less androgen receptive than cis men.
That's different than identifying a genetic error that causes a specific condition. It's just demonstrating a slight statistical anomaly.
So, that article is a fantastic piece of misinformation, but they just want hits... of course, people love to use those titles to make their points without understanding what was even studied so, whatevs.
For those interested, this is from that study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3402034_nihms369145f1.jpg
You can see the differences between the cis male and mtfs was minimal, especially becuase cis males had a much better sample size, though some MTFs had a lot of CAG repeats, which means a less functional androgen receptor, so in a small number of cases there could be a more direct link, but that would result in a feminized body as well as brain, because it would resemble androgen insensitivity. It would not cause the brain to be *more* feminized than the body, because they were feminized by the same process.
That study is incredibly flawed, because it assumes that there should be a direct correlation between CAG repeats and gender identity, which seems like a very limited picture in my own (non-professional) opinion. There are a number of variables at play during the development of brain structure-hormones, and this specific hormone being just one-anyone with a basic knowledge of biology would know that you cannot tie the development of a complex condition like ours to a single variation that has in no way been proven definitively one way or another to cause that condition. Measuring how much someone's brain *should* feminize accomplishes nothing, especially if it already has been!
Just curious-what DO you think causes ->-bleeped-<-?
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:01 AM
That study is incredibly flawed, because it assumes that there should be a direct correlation between CAG repeats and gender identity, which seems like a very limited picture in my own (non-professional) opinion. There are a number of variables at play during the development of brain structure-hormones, and this specific hormone being just one-anyone with a basic knowledge of biology would know that you cannot tie the development of a complex condition like ours to a single variation that has in no way been proven definitively one way or another to cause that condition. Measuring how much someone's brain *should* feminize accomplishes nothing, especially if it already has been!
Just curious-what DO you think causes ->-bleeped-<-?
Yah, it would only matter in an extreme case, even androgen insensitivity severe enough to cause ambiguous genitals only sometimes causes a female gender ID in XY people. A lot of trans people think that being slightly undermasculinized can explain gender dysphoria, but that makes no sense, it's still clear on the male side. Of course CAIS (shoutout to Candice here! :D) women do not get masculinized at all.
To be fair, sex hormone levels during different stages of development ARE pretty much solely responsible for sex dimorphism. They are responsible for almost all the traits we associate as more male or more female, and the brain's structure is not an exception. So to end up on the wrong side of that spectrum means there has to be some hormone problem somewhere along the line. I think the classic theory is that the sex hormone levels in the mother are disrupted and off balance while the brain is developing, since the fetus develops different areas at different times. I'm not sure if that has really been substantiated but I know some of the digit ratio and other skeletal/behavioral/temperamental stuff was linked to those prenatal hormone levels as well.
But, I don't personally believe that pure brain sex dimorphism is what causes a large portion of cases of gender dysphoria. I think there are actually a lot of different causes that end up with the same treatment. That's my completely subjective opinion, and I would only be offering anecdotal evidence to back it up, so I'm not going to bother and I'm not going to argue about it. It doesn't matter why and it doesn't change the reality that transition is right for some people regardless of ANY factors other than simply wanting/needing to.
No, no-that's actually a fairly interesting take on things. Wrt the study, I'd probably argue that this one receptor isn't a strong enough indicator of pre-natal hormonal levels. But I don't care to argue either. I'm still looking at the question of *what* causes this, and while I do think it is most definitely a tangible medical condition (the same as AIS, Bipolar, or anything else), I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the subject...
Sad Panda, nowhere did he say being intersex and transgender are the same thing (though there are doctors who are pushing for it to be considered an intersex condition, more specifically "neurological intersex"). He said that because you were drawing a line in the sand between transgender and intersex as if one was more valid and one was not (one medical, one an "identity").
Quote from: Declan. on June 13, 2014, 01:10:12 PM
Sad Panda, nowhere did he say being intersex and transgender are the same thing (though there are doctors who are pushing for it to be considered an intersex condition, more specifically "neurological intersex"). He said that because you were drawing a line in the sand between transgender and intersex as if one was more valid and one was not (one medical, one an "identity").
Yah but can someone please ask me which lines I'm drawing? I think I'm the authority on that one. :S because like I said... I wasn't drawing a line in validity. transgender IS an identity, it is a broad, umbrella term for several identities, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, and intersex is primarily a medical umbrella term first and identity second. Gender dysphoria is not intersex, though both are used to refer to medical conditions, they describe different things. I was emphasizing that the primary use for term intersex is not as an identity but as indicating a range of medical conditions which have no reason to include gender dysphoria... not because it is less valid, but because it doesn't fit under that umbrella. and if you substitute things carelessly (he turned my "transgender" into "gender dysphoria" which again is different) it changes the meaning of what I said. So I don't think it's fair to be offended by me in that case. :(
By the way--this is completely unrelated but in the first place, I disagree that a medical condition is necessarily more valid than an identity. I don't think validity should even come into consideration, nobody has the right to invalidate people's identities.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 12:42:18 PM
No, no-that's actually a fairly interesting take on things. Wrt the study, I'd probably argue that this one receptor isn't a strong enough indicator of pre-natal hormonal levels. But I don't care to argue either. I'm still looking at the question of *what* causes this, and while I do think it is most definitely a tangible medical condition (the same as AIS, Bipolar, or anything else), I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the subject...
Maybe misunderstood again... I'm not sure if you think my opinion of the study was that it is a cause of GD? If so then just to clarify, olivia P originally posted that study and I was critiquing it. So I have the same opinion as you--it is not an example of a genetic cause.
Anyway maybe someone else has more theories about the why? :) It's way too complicated for me to have a concrete opinion. And people transition for many different conscious reasons as well.
Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 02:03:58 PM
Yah but can someone please ask me which lines I'm drawing? I think I'm the authority on that one. :S because like I said... I wasn't drawing a line in validity. transgender IS an identity, it is a broad, umbrella term for several identities, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, and intersex is primarily a medical umbrella term first and identity second. Gender dysphoria is not intersex, though both are used to refer to medical conditions, they describe different things. I was emphasizing that the primary use for term intersex is not as an identity but as indicating a range of medical conditions which have no reason to include gender dysphoria... not because it is less valid, but because it doesn't fit under that umbrella. and if you substitute things carelessly (he turned my "transgender" into "gender dysphoria" which again is different) it changes the meaning of what I said. So I don't think it's fair to be offended by me in that case. :(
Quote from: sad pandaWhat do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.
Quote from: sad pandaTrans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different.
Quote from: sad pandaI personally don't believe in gender identity and stuff and have not seen any evidence that there is some kind of gender wiring in the brain beyond normal sex dimorphism.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx
"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. ... The condition is also sometimes known as gender identity disorder (GID), gender incongruence or ->-bleeped-<-."
I'm well aware that "transgender" is an umbrella term, and that not everyone that falls under that term suffers from gender dysphoria. However, you did not make it clear that you see the two as separate. In any case, you did say with no uncertainty that you don't believe in gender identity, and if there's no gender identity, there's no gender dysphoria. If you were misunderstood, that's on you for saying what you did.
Quote from: Declan. on June 13, 2014, 02:35:17 PM
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx
"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. ... The condition is also sometimes known as gender identity disorder (GID), gender incongruence or ->-bleeped-<-."
I'm well aware that "transgender" is an umbrella term, and that not everyone that falls under that term suffers from gender dysphoria. However, you did not make it clear that you see the two as separate. In any case, you did say with no uncertainty that you don't believe in gender identity, and if there's no gender identity, there's no gender dysphoria. If you were misunderstood, that's on you for saying what you did.
Who said there can't be gender dysphoria without gender identity? Obviously the dysphoria is real, and it is in relation to a subjective experience of gender, I just don't think it's biologically pre-determined due to some like, innate gender map... which means I think it's based on a more complex picture of social, experiential and yes medical factors.
But I don't believe that there's an exclusive gender identity switch in the brain and if it gets flipped wrong then bam, gender dysphoria. There's a reason gender dysphoria can be late onset, or anything really, it is more complex and often needs social and life factors to trigger it IMO.
I'm sorry but I can't be responsible for people making assumptions about everything I say and then freaking out at me when they could just ask if that's what I really meant and try to be cooperative :/ not everyone extends that courtesy though. Actually most people don't, so whatever. I just wish people cared about my actual intentions in saying something and not semantics...
Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
Oh, eesh. you decide what to get offended over, not me... if you look back at my quote you might notice that i just differentiated intersex from just being an identity, i never said being trans is not a medical condition. I think it's mildly offensive that trans people consistently try to appropriate the intersex label, which will not benefit them, when they generally don't care about, advocate for or understand the needs of intersex people.
No, you differentiated intersex as being medically diagnosable while transgender is not. Now you're backtracking. I simply pointed out that this is very false. And I'm not "appropriating" the intersex label, whereas you have certainly been telling transgender people that they simply have an identity and not a medically diagnosable condition throughout this thread. You're entitled to your opinions, but you can't really be too shocked when you come onto a board filled with people who have struggled to get a debilitating physical and psychological condition taken seriously by medical professionals their entire lives. We don't have it quite as easy as you insist we do. The entire medical community is not falling over themselves to give transgender individuals the treatment they need.
QuoteThough yeah, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, transgender is a huge umbrella term. And it's not medically or practically similar to intersex, but that doesn't invalidate it. This is the problem. You can't take the intersex label just because not having it makes you feel invalid. Trans people don't need to be called intersexed, and some trans people might even find that offensive, cause intersex implies an incomplete sexual development and is not primarily about the brain. Trans people become sexually mature. Again, just very different conditions, intersex is already a pretty broad umbrella term to begin with. Neither is more valid, tough one is more medically understood, but... anyway, they are very different. It would be intellectually lazy to call trans people intersex.
Again, transgender is a huge umbrella term and transgender individuals do not necessarily have gender dysphoria, but very many of us do. Again, I never claimed the intersex label for all transgender individuals, so I'm not at all sure where you're getting that. If you want to talk about people misreading your posts, you might want to take more care before accusing someone of this. I only refuted your argument that intersex is medically diagnosible while transgender is
not. Aside from a small sliver of the medical community, no one wants to call transgender intersex. That is not the issue here. The issue is your multiple posts insisting that transgender is merely an identity and not at all medically diagnosable, while intersex is medically diagnosable.
QuoteYou are filling in those assumptions though... you're projecting. I never said anything about being "really" sick. Or about validity. It's not about validity at all, so....
I mean, the fact that you assume I'm invalidating you by calling you not intersex speaks volumes to why you want to be called intersex.
So very many incorrect assumptions. Again, I reiterate,
I do not think transgender with gender dysphoria and intersex are the same any more than Bipolar Disorder and Cerebral Palsy are the same. I do, however, know that they are both medically diagnosable physiologically based conditions that deserve medical care. I'm going to let your quotes speak for themselves here.
Quote from: Sad PandaTrans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different.
QuoteCalling trans people intersex is just overshadowing people with medically diagnosable DSDs for no reason.
Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different. no need to overshadow people in need of attention.
QuoteGender dysphoria CANNOT be handled like an intersex condition. It's not even similar, and beyond that I
it has no clinical picture, no warning signs, no identifiable genetic component, mystery age of onset, vague and variable symptoms beyond literally claiming to have it, and needs a highly individualized course of treatment. Of course it's valid, but it is not an intersex condition. Nuh uh. And people with gender dysphoria can only be hurt by gaining the intersex label. It won't fix fears of invalidity either.
I don't mean this in a tongue-in-cheek way at all, but I think you really need to do some extensive research into the various peer-reviewed studies available online that detail the considerable physical evidence for gender dysphoria before you spread this kind of misinformation. Intersex is very badly misunderstood and mishandled by the medical community, and so are transgender conditions. Neither community will "win" by disenfranchising the other.
Also, I don't like bringing this into threads for the sake of argument, but since you are very adamant that I'm just some transgender fellow trying to "appropriate" the intersex label, I
am intersex. In fact, being treated for my intersex condition with spironolactone by irresponsible backwoods doctors led to a huge spike in my gender dysphoria to the point where I was suicidal. Because my doctors were willing to treat the intersex condition while ignoring the fact that I was also a transgender male, I could have died, so the door swings both ways. Trying to push one group away from medical recognition to validate another will always hurt someone, which is why I find your original arguments in this thread so distasteful.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 12, 2014, 05:19:53 AM
As you may notice by my icon under my name I am news staff, and throughout my days I go through lots of articles on the topics of trans, gender and sex. Something I've noticed is that the majority of reports about Gender Equality focus 100% on the natal Male/Female balance and make no mention of any other part about gender. Some articles even seem to claim that gender equality is very present today.
Surely Gender Equality will never be a reality until all gender variances are officially recognized by all levels of society?
Not just natal female and male...
YES! THIS! ^ I switch genders throughout the day (Wish I didn't, only want to be fully 100% female, so this hurts me..) but because of that, I've realized something that others don't think about too often. I realize, if I wish to have SRS (Which I do) then I will be FORCED to be 100% female all the time. Now, I'd love that but, I don't know if that's possible for me but it made me realize, people who are gender fluid besides myself sadly can't get SRS, or at least not in the US as, one of the requirements for it is being in guy or girl mode for 12 months without reverting back to the other mode. That's just not right NOR is it fair! To add insult to injury, not all trans people NEED or WANT to be on hormones but, that too is another requirement if I recall right.
2014, the year of trans awareness. That I have seen more and more of as this year goes by, we're making SO MUCH progress but, sadly, people who are gender fluid and so on are being left behind and not mentioned. This REALLY bothers me, a lot.. We need to not only continue to raise awareness on MtF/FtM issues but other trans issues too such as gender fluid issues!
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:01 AM
That study is incredibly flawed, because it assumes that there should be a direct correlation between CAG repeats and gender identity, which seems like a very limited picture in my own (non-professional) opinion. There are a number of variables at play during the development of brain structure-hormones, and this specific hormone being just one-anyone with a basic knowledge of biology would know that you cannot tie the development of a complex condition like ours to a single variation that has in no way been proven definitively one way or another to cause that condition. Measuring how much someone's brain *should* feminize accomplishes nothing, especially if it already has been!
Just curious-what DO you think causes ->-bleeped-<-?
I know it wasn't aimed at me but what actually causes it is a great mystery with many theories and hypotheses. Personally though I think it is an evolutionary thing. Or... The last 30-50 years we have had the luxury of self exploration since we don't expend so much energy in order to survive anymore. 200 years ago much of our thoughts would have been on just basic survival, now we have everything we need just a short ride away. I think ->-bleeped-<- has been around since the beginning of mankind but has always been squelched because of non acceptance by society. Society is becoming more open, although not enough for us it seems sometimes. For the first time in history we have a lot of freetime to, it may not seem so, but our minds can turn inward instead of spending so much concentration on just staying alive.
I really don't think there will ever be a solid, concrete reason why. Or at least in my lifetime. But regardless ->-bleeped-<- seems to be on the rise, whether society is becoming more accepting or changes in or DNA or just acknowledging ourselves on way deeper levels than ever before. Or maybe changes in our environment is causing something to happen prenatally. Even different waves of energy coming from different areas of space having effects on brain development. Even maybe electromagnetic fields from our technology having an effect on brain development in the womb. Yeah I know it sound insane but the earth not being the center of the universe was an insane though a thousand years ago.
Quote from: Klaus on June 13, 2014, 05:31:52 PM
No, you differentiated intersex as being medically diagnosable while transgender is not. Now you're backtracking. I simply pointed out that this is very false. And I'm not "appropriating" the intersex label, whereas you have certainly been telling transgender people that they simply have an identity and not a medically diagnosable condition throughout this thread. You're entitled to your opinions, but you can't really be too shocked when you come onto a board filled with people who have struggled to get a debilitating physical and psychological condition taken seriously by medical professionals their entire lives. We don't have it quite as easy as you insist we do. The entire medical community is not falling over themselves to give transgender individuals the treatment they need.
You probably don't know my background, the non-TG means I don't identify as trans personally, but I have changed my gender presentation. You know what that process was like? I asked my endo to prescribe me HRT, and she did just like that, and that was it, and insurance covered it, and all my labs. That was before WPATH changed the letter requirement but now that is a perfectly acceptable course of treatment.
It's actually harder for an IS person to get trans treatment, because IS treatment is aimed at normalizing people to their assigned sex except in cases of severe ambiguity, so again, I wouldn't have had anything to gain by saying I'm IS.
(And since you experienced this, I would think you'd know better than anyone else that treating a trans person as IS isn't helpful and can be damaging)
Quote
Again, transgender is a huge umbrella term and transgender individuals do not necessarily have gender dysphoria, but very many of us do. Again, I never claimed the intersex label for all transgender individuals, so I'm not at all sure where you're getting that. If you want to talk about people misreading your posts, you might want to take more care before accusing someone of this. I only refuted your argument that intersex is medically diagnosible while transgender is not. Aside from a small sliver of the medical community, no one wants to call transgender intersex. That is not the issue here. The issue is your multiple posts insisting that transgender is merely an identity and not at all medically diagnosable, while intersex is medically diagnosable.
So very many incorrect assumptions. Again, I reiterate, I do not think transgender with gender dysphoria and intersex are the same any more than Bipolar Disorder and Cerebral Palsy are the same. I do, however, know that they are both medically diagnosable physiologically based conditions that deserve medical care. I'm going to let your quotes speak for themselves here.
I don't mean this in a tongue-in-cheek way at all, but I think you really need to do some extensive research into the various peer-reviewed studies available online that detail the considerable physical evidence for gender dysphoria before you spread this kind of misinformation. Intersex is very badly misunderstood and mishandled by the medical community, and so are transgender conditions. Neither community will "win" by disenfranchising the other.
Also, I don't like bringing this into threads for the sake of argument, but since you are very adamant that I'm just some transgender fellow trying to "appropriate" the intersex label, I am intersex. In fact, being treated for my intersex condition with spironolactone by irresponsible backwoods doctors led to a huge spike in my gender dysphoria to the point where I was suicidal. Because my doctors were willing to treat the intersex condition while ignoring the fact that I was also a transgender male, I could have died, so the door swings both ways. Trying to push one group away from medical recognition to validate another will always hurt someone, which is why I find your original arguments in this thread so distasteful.
I'm sorry Klaus, I refuse to do the back and forth thing. Ugh. What a stressful waste of mental energy. You can read whatever you want from my posts if you really choose to. It's your choice. The bottom line is that I think everyone needs the appropriate medical care, and I have been saying that all along, which is no different from what you think. The only addition to me is that trans people don't have any reason to fall under the intersex umbrella, even if there is overlap (as is your case--CAH??)
But that makes you intersex AND transgender, they are different labels that describe different things, neither more or less valid, just different. If you can't understand how I feel from that, I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do beyond to say that, and I won't try.
Everyone is reminded to play nice, keep it civil and agree to disagree.
:police:
Quote from: Shana-chan on June 13, 2014, 06:14:47 PM
2014, the year of trans awareness. That I have seen more and more of as this year goes by, we're making SO MUCH progress but, sadly, people who are gender fluid and so on are being left behind and not mentioned. This REALLY bothers me, a lot.. We need to not only continue to raise awareness on MtF/FtM issues but other trans issues too such as gender fluid issues!
Yes i have noticed this also, there is a good risk of history repeating itself and people getting left behind out of a equality movement. At the time of so much successful exposure, it is more important than ever to focus on unity and to help each other out, as regardless of your gender variance, until everyone is represented, noone will have full gender equality.
Its impossible for people to form an accurate understanding of sex and gender if they fail to factor in all variables.
Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
What do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.
Malehood is different than manhood. Man is a gender, male is a sex... umh, but why would you care about being a man if it ceased to mean anything anyway? If it was just a word with no definition? Do you need to be recognized as a man or as a male? What's problematic is "man" can only exist in the first place as defined by oppressive stereotypes. If it's not about exclusionary stereotypes it's either completely arbitrary... or redundant (sex is enough to describe it.)
I'm sorry for being slow to respond.
I feel that the biological characteristics of a transgender person and an intersex person are not different, and the medical differentiation is unnecessary and often harmful. There are demonstrable anatomic markers for both, and both involve a deviation from expected physical sex details.
I've had this "desert island" discussion with a lot of people a lot of times, where we consider whether we would need to transition if there was no social input. I believe that my body would feel wrong to me even if I never met another human. I can't know that for sure, but it doesn't hurt anyone for me to feel that I am male and have always been male, and that that category is definable.
Quote from: Felix on July 05, 2014, 03:38:21 AM
I'm sorry for being slow to respond.
Oh you're fine!
QuoteI feel that the biological characteristics of a transgender person and an intersex person are not different, and the medical differentiation is unnecessary and often harmful. There are demonstrable anatomic markers for both, and both involve a deviation from expected physical sex details.
This is what I have a problem with, I don't understand what the point of lumping them together is. Intersex conditions (the more appropriate term now is DSD which is appropriately descriptive, but anyway) as a rule, are conditions acquired from birth that predictably impair fertility and normal binary sexual development. That's the uniting factor of that label. Trans people almost always have a normal binary sexual development and are fertile, so they are biologically very different labels. IS issues are body-oriented issues. There are psychosocial symptoms of the body issues but that is because the body is ambiguous, not because it is mismatched. There is no IS condition that results in a fertile body of a consistently incongruent gender identity. Most IS people's mental gender identity matches which sex their body more closely represents. But trans issues focus on healthy bodies with mismatching identities. I hope that makes sense.
QuoteI've had this "desert island" discussion with a lot of people a lot of times, where we consider whether we would need to transition if there was no social input. I believe that my body would feel wrong to me even if I never met another human. I can't know that for sure, but it doesn't hurt anyone for me to feel that I am male and have always been male, and that that category is definable.
It is definable, but, do you think it should come as a package deal with "man?" How exactly does a male body connect to "he?" You know? Like, if your body just mismatches your brain, then shouldn't changing your body be enough? But, almost every trans person wants social recognition of an identity as well. I think it has to be partly a psychosocial issue. Again, nobody can really pull those apart, because being trans is not really clearly medically defined or understood yet. It's still primarily evaluated by therapists and reports of subjective experience. It's still in the DSM. It doesn't have a clear clinical picture or presentation or necessary set of symptoms. People with mental health issues could easily say they are trans when they are not, believing that they are, and there would be absolutely no way to tell the difference. You can't tell someone "you aren't trans" because the diagnostic criteria is "yes i am"
I think what everyone here is trying to say is that while trans issues may stem from body-mind incongruity rather than body ambiguity, our need for care is exactly the same as the need for care of someone like you. I would argue that body dysporia is also (usually) condition present from birth, and certainly deeply ingrained in the brain's structure...when people use the phrase "gender identity", I'm very bothered by this because an identity is something you choose for yourself. I don't identify as female (I identify as queer, but that's a whole different story), I AM (or should have been) female. I have a hard time believing that this is a purely psychological issue when no other form of treatment besides transitioning has been proven to help people experiencing gender dysphoria. Even if the diagnostic criteria are ambiguous, that would be no reason to deny people the care they medically require.
The point everyone is trying to make is that gender dysphoria is, like any intersex condition, a medical condition that must be treated as such. It is just as immutable, just as harmful, and just as painful.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 05, 2014, 11:50:12 PM
I think what everyone here is trying to say is that while trans issues may stem from body-mind incongruity rather than body ambiguity, our need for care is exactly the same as the need for care of someone [who is IS].
Need for
care, but not the same care. Just like rabies is not a genetic autoimmune disorder, gender dysphoria is not an intersex condition. Trans people and IS people have different bodies and different treatment needs.
QuoteThe point everyone is trying to make is that gender dysphoria is, like any intersex condition, a medical condition that must be treated as such. It is just as immutable, just as harmful, and just as painful.
It already is, and trans people have far better access to treatment than IS people already.
QuoteI AM (or should have been) female.
Not having an IS condition doesn't make this invalid. Nor would having an IS condition make it more valid!
QuoteAgain, nobody can really pull those apart, because being trans is not really clearly medically defined or understood yet. It's still primarily evaluated by therapists and reports of subjective experience. It's still in the DSM. It doesn't have a clear clinical picture or presentation or necessary set of symptoms. People with mental health issues could easily say they are trans when they are not, believing that they are, and there would be absolutely no way to tell the difference. You can't tell someone "you aren't trans" because the diagnostic criteria is "yes i am"
QuoteNeed for care, but not the same care. Just like rabies is not a genetic autoimmune disorder, gender dysphoria is not an intersex condition. Trans people and IS people have different bodies and different treatment needs.
How can you agree that trans isnt clearly medically defined yet, and still definitively say what trans is and isnt?
If its not medically defined yet, thats the end of it, the rest is simply speculation and theorizing. Its either scientifically understood or it isnt, you cant have both.
Please excuse my ignorance, but how is my access to care better than yours? I've heard otherwise from so many sources (especially when it comes to insurance coverage), that I may be missing out on some crucial information.
Also-intersex people and transgender people both sometimes need HRT and SRS-so in a way, we do require similar care.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 06, 2014, 03:35:06 AM
Please excuse my ignorance, but how is my access to care better than yours? I've heard otherwise from so many sources (especially when it comes to insurance coverage), that I may be missing out on some crucial information.
Also-intersex people and transgender people both sometimes need HRT and SRS-so in a way, we do require similar care.
Just to clarify, I am not dx'ed intersex. I identify as cis either way. I have talked to lots of IS people though and aware of their issues, and suffer from similar ones.
Access to care--how isn't trans care better than IS care?
-IS people frequently have their genitals mutilated as babies and children, with high rates of complications, and spend their childhood going thru reparative surgeries, speculative treatments for things like growth deficiency, treatments to induce or delay puberty, losing functioning gonads to fear of cancer risk, invasive medical studies and photography etc.
-IS people are often normalized to one sex or the other by doctors even when they have bodies that don't require treatment.
-IS issues are not well understood, frequently mismanaged and misdiagnosed, IS conditions are rare, there are few specialists or treatment centers catering to their needs and awareness among GPs and other medical staff is poor.
-IS do not have legal rights respecting their identities anyway in the case that they do not identify as cisgender
-There are no special legal recognitions for IS people who wish to reassign their gender later in life, they have to go through the same process as trans people anyway.
And trans care:
-Ultimately the only diagnostic criteria is a commitment to transition, treatment is elective
-Gender dysphoria is recognized as a medical problem legally and by most insurance companies.
-There are transgender clinics that specialize in treating trans people and offer sliding scale treatment to people without insurance.
-There are numerous gender therapists that cater to trans issues.
-SRS is routine and there are numerous surgeons that specialize in treating trans patients as well as all kinds of cosmetic surgeons.
-Being trans is far more common than being IS and is far easier and more consistent to treat with fewer complications, and so again, trans people enjoy greater awareness and better management of their issues.
I would not call this similar care. There can be overlap, but usually it's very different, and the overlap occurs for very different reasons.
Quote from: Olivia P on July 06, 2014, 02:54:49 AM
How can you agree that trans isnt clearly medically defined yet, and still definitively say what trans is and isnt?
If its not medically defined yet, thats the end of it, the rest is simply speculation and theorizing. Its either scientifically understood or it isnt, you cant have both.
It's kinda like how even if we don't fully understand the brain... we sure as heck know it's a different organ than the heart. They don't belong in the same group because their observable characteristics are different even if the mechanism is not understood.
Gender dysphoria is NOT recognized as a medical condition legally and covered by most insurance companies-what happy part of the world are you living in? I'm fairly certain that you're mixed up here-it's intersex conditions that are recognized by the medical community and most insurance companies! Intersex people do have legal rights, at least in america-nonelective surgery on infants is considered illegal, and they do not have to go through the same hoops that we do to obtain hormones and surgery. I know this from people I've spoken with, from books I've read, and from insurance companies I've pleaded with to help pay for my transition...it's by no means easy for IS people either, but I'm not sure you have your facts straight.
Trans* care is not elective, not in the slightest. You are not transgender yourself, and I don't think you are capable of understanding just how crucial it is for those of us who experience intense dysphoria. For some, it is just as crucial as chemo for a cancer patient, a hip replacement for your grandmother, or morphine for a trauma patient. Some of us literally cannot live without it, and when you call that care elective, it's slightly insulting. I don't want this argument to go on, but I feel as if you have some very incorrect notions surrounding what it means to be transgender (even if you dabbled in it yourself), and the obstacles we face.
True gender equality will not exist until all gender barriers and separation are eliminated.
(1) All clothing must be unisex-gender neutral.
(2) Separate facilities must be eliminated: public restrooms, locker rooms, exercise facilities & clubs, etc.
(3) Segregated sports activities must be eliminated.
(4) Gender specific job classifications must be eliminated.
(5) Antything else that separates us based on gender must be eliminated.
My personal opinion is that homosexuality, intersex status, And gender variance are all biological manifestations of the same underlying principle expressed in different ways. Like it not, we all start out with the potential to be either sex, and excluding XXY/XO as long as everything proceeds normally we should end up as heterosexual people with sex/gender congruence. Obviously that doesn't happen; some of us are CAIS, some of us have mothers that may have been exposed to different substances at different times, other biological causes, etc. it's simply a multistep process potentially fraught with error and interference.
That doesn't mean we're defective, it simply means we have more in common than first appears to even us.
OK so intersex is a biolgical condition and ->-bleeped-<- is or could be consdered a psychological or psychiatric medical condition. The big thing is that can effect us and brings our quality of life down so both can be medical conditions and psychological conditions.
Both should be considered psyhiatric, psychological and biological medical conditions. Both can have tremendous impacts on both sides. Until we know the brain and each and every nueron and the way it is mapped who really knows if we have the wrong brain for our bodies or the wrong bodies for our brains or minds? Both can have deadly consequences in a psychological sense and that to me is unacceptable.
Being IS and being trans are two different things. They're similar in that gender transition is sometimes the "cure" for the underlying condition. But surely there is much more trans awareness. There is next to no intersex awareness and if you tell peeps you're intersex they look at you lke you're insane. Everyone knows what trans is. Everyone. I go to Mazzoni, so its care is great for both intersex and (well I guess the greart) for trans patients. But for all intents and purposes now, my IS condition is underlying and genital dysphoria is paramount. Not gender. Genital. I am a woman. I cant become what I already and have always been genetically. There is no gender dysphonia. Being feminine or womanly or whatnot comes as natural to me as breathing. I tried to change it and was highly unsuccessful.
But SP is right that IS conditions are not well understood and care is mismanaged. My mom ripped me from the hospital when I was three and stopped them from playing guinea pig with me ever again. I spend the better part of the first years of my life in the hospital. I don't like talking about my condition because I've heard it appropriated by others and I don't like that my condition is appropriated for whatever reason. It isn't fun. The one thing I hear around here is how great growing breasts is...well I started budding when I was 11 or so and it was not only not great, I was so horrified that I tried to hang myself. I knew what I was, but I hoped against hoped that I would turn into a guy and that never happened. Being IS isn't anything It just IS. HA! See what I did there!!! Anyhoo, even though there are similarities, they are not the same. I don't know nor can I comment on insurance. I go to Mazzoni and they don't accept my insurance. In any event, it's Medicaid and they won't be paying for crap no matter what, as it is crap insurance. I might as well have nothing.
The other thing is trans peeps kinda, but not really, choose (prolly not the right word) to transition or present or whatever. I never had a choice. (When I say choice I mean my body decided to become really womanly on its own. I like HRT and all but didn't need it per se and I only ever thought about genital realignment to make me whole again. I used to watch Quantum Leap like when I was seven or whatever and I thought sam would leap into my doctor's life and stop them from making a horrible, terrible, no good, awful mistake.) By the time I was 15, it was obvious that I was much different from other boys, mainly that I wasn't really one. But then I wasn't a girl either. It's a sucky state that you can't really fathom unless you've been there.
I hate saying this because I feel like I am minimizing the trans condition and I certainly am not and have nothing but sympathy and like I said there are many similarities. I don't know Im going to shut up b4 I get yelled at again.
@joanna
It's whatever I'm just not gonna bother with people making up stuff about IS conditions when they don't even know what those conditions are or how those people struggle. It's a waste of everyone's time, it's stressful as heck b/c i actually care about people and I'm done getting bullied over it by people who don't know the first thing about me. The way trans people bully people into agreement who they don't even listen to in the first place is proof enough that there's some major psychological influence to their beliefs about themselves and their gender issues. I'm just tired of so many trans people wanting to tack on the IS label when they haven't even taken the time to understand it. They're so greedy for any ounce of extra validitation (when it is only validating in their own head) that they just impose this fantasy on people and bark louder when they don't agree. Meanwhile, some cis IS girl somewhere out there is getting her clit chopped off by a doctor cuz it's "too big." Some guy is in adrenal crisis and dying cuz nobody knew what to do with his undiagnosed CAH. But oh, gender is fun, labels are fun. Let's all collect some more meaningless labels.
Quote from: sad panda on July 07, 2014, 05:49:00 AM
@joanna
It's whatever I'm just not gonna bother with people making up stuff about IS conditions when they don't even know what those conditions are or how those people struggle. It's a waste of everyone's time, it's stressful as heck b/c i actually care about people and I'm done getting bullied over it by people who don't know the first thing about me.... Meanwhile, some cis IS girl somewhere out there is getting her clit chopped off by a doctor cuz it's "too big." Some guy is in adrenal crisis and dying cuz nobody knew what to do with his undiagnosed CAH. But oh, gender is fun, labels are fun. Let's all collect some more meaningless labels.
Sad Panda
Powerful statement. I am still reeling.
Really appreciate every poster's contribution. You have really made me think.
Aisla
Being IS myself (and yes, I can prove it so you know I'm not taking a label) I can certainly attest growing up IS is far from fun, far from any "validation," and very very far from easy. I won't repeat other posts of mine but I've been down the suicide highway myself more than once over it.
Panda, I agree, some very powerful words in your last reply. In fact, I really can't add anything because my having read through this entire thread, anything I would add has already been said. Therefore, I can only add that I would have certainly preferred to have been born with normal genitals either male or female regardless of my trans status, than being born incomplete somewhere between the two as I was. At least most, and I'm only saying most, not all, trans people who aren't IS are able to have some stability in their lives before their dysphoria becomes too intolerant and they have to transition. Some even build a life, have kids. Those of us who are IS don't get that chance.
I'll leave that there before I become too emotional. Panda, Joanna, thanks for your words in this thread. :icon_bunch:
Ally :icon_flower:
Even if you accept the premise that intersex and trans are meaningfully separate conditions, you have to understand that many people are varying degrees of both. Genitalia that looks ambiguous to one doctor may not to the next, and secondary sexual characteristics can manifest in surprising ways in different people, and gendered feelings and behavior are both on a spectrum and often greatly complicated by the appearance of one's body. I still see enough similarities in the two groups that I find the rigid categorization a little odd. The needs and interests of both trans and IS people coincide a lot, so you'd think we'd be more in touch with each others' communities at the very least.
I was not diagnosed as intersex when I was born but I had the condition "androgenisation" written on my birth records. My genitals came out looking ambiguous (enlarged clitoris) and the doctors were deciding whether or not to "correct" it, thankfully, they decided against it. When my psychiatrist started hearing this story, he looked like he was having a mini-heart attack and sighed in relief when he heard they decided against correcting it. He explained that there have been many complaints and people ended up suing their doctors for modifying their genitals at such a young age.
Having an enlarged clitoris led me to believe I would grow up as a boy because I experienced an erection, I thought I could urinate standing up like my father - when it didn't work, I simply told myself that my body would eventually fix itself. Imagine my horror when puberty came along and my mother explaining to me that I would be entering womanhood. Up until then, it hadn't actually registered to me that I have a vagina.
I don't have a binary gender identity but I can't help but wonder how different things could have been if it had been "corrected"... would I have been happy as a cisgender girl? Or would I have felt like something's missing?
Quote from: EchelonHunt on August 02, 2014, 03:56:28 AM
I was not diagnosed as intersex when I was born but I had the condition "androgenisation" written on my birth records. My genitals came out looking ambiguous (enlarged clitoris) and the doctors were deciding whether or not to "correct" it, thankfully, they decided against it. When my psychiatrist started hearing this story, he looked like he was having a mini-heart attack and sighed in relief when he heard they decided against correcting it. He explained that there have been many complaints and people ended up suing their doctors for modifying their genitals at such a young age.
Having an enlarged clitoris led me to believe I would grow up as a boy because I experienced an erection, I thought I could urinate standing up like my father - when it didn't work, I simply told myself that my body would eventually fix itself. Imagine my horror when puberty came along and my mother explaining to me that I would be entering womanhood. Up until then, it hadn't actually registered to me that I have a vagina.
I don't have a binary gender identity but I can't help but wonder how different things could have been if it had been "corrected"... would I have been happy as a cisgender girl? Or would I have felt like something's missing?
Corrective genital surgeries should never be performed on infants unless they are unable to urinate due to their condition. There is absolutely nothing wrong about having an enlarged clitoris.
Quote from: Felix on August 02, 2014, 02:33:35 AM
The needs and interests of both trans and IS people coincide a lot, so you'd think we'd be more in touch with each others' communities at the very least.
I'm IS/Trans Female and I do agree with this statement. Some though think that combining our two, er, well, communities would sort of muddy the waters, as it were.
Allie :icon_flower:
Quote from: sad panda on June 12, 2014, 10:08:30 PM
There will not be gender equality until there are no genders... :-\
...this is literally what TERFs claim to believe just so you know.
I think we can achieve anything with resilience and a positive attitude. The moment we become hostile and demanding is when people really don't care to take us seriously. Will we achieve total gender equality in our lifetime? That might be too ambitious, but all great changes in history started somewhere. If we carry the torch today with peaceful and passionate determination then those who come after us may only have to carry it for a little while. If we visualise that very day where equality is no longer a battle, and be shining examples of love, then together we will co-create that reality.