Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either. Her arguement is that everything from gender roles to the concept of a gender identity is something contrived by humans completely and doesn't have any basis in the real world to stand on. Personally, as someone who feels my body doesn't represent who I am and what I am sometimes told I should be based on what is between my legs, I find this a bit rude.
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this? I am considering distancing from her for now, because I find it easily becomes heated as a discussion. Has anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?
I guess I don't mean to be too blunt but besides biological differences between male and female bodies (if that isn't enough), I would ask how human perception and conception of gender is not in part "real world"? Frankly, the analysis is juvenile and silly masquerading as smart and informed. Even gender roles we all agree are artificial are deeply rooted in the human condition. They are as real as anything. The philosophy majors can quote the philosophers that argued that perception is reality, I'll just say it.
This is a piece of ideological nonsense espoused by some radical feminists who take the concept of social construction to, umm, unhealthy extremes. The best rejoinder I've found is something along the lines of "Traffic laws are socially constructed, too -- do you believe they're not real either?"
You can also challenge her with something along the lines of "OK, so you don't believe that people have the right to control their own bodies?"
Unfortunately, you may end up having to distance yourself from your friend; as with other forms of ideological purity, it's difficult to impossible to talk true believers out of this.
Google "TERF" if you want to read about these folks. What bugs me is that they put this abstract, intellectual silliness ahead of the pain of real people, and then have the gall to tell these people (US!) that we should continue to suffer rather than challenge their beliefs.
Eejits. I count myself fortunate that I have only one not-too-close acquaintance who goes in for this dreck.
I guess the concept of gender as we see it, is an existential threat to some peoples world view. What I would do, is simple, tell her you know who you are better than she does.
I would much rather gender just be a social construct, I in fact thought it was for many years while I tried to "fix" myself from these feelings. That did lots more harm than good for sure, and when you look into the evidence from the medical and psychological community, not to mention the transgender community itself it starts to become apparent this isn't something you could rationalize away with some behavioral therapy as if it were a fear of heights.
Lots of pain has been caused by "picking sides" in the nature versus nurture argument, and if you really pay attention it becomes clear that both are a factor in human development no matter how that conflicts with people's world view.
... Uh, what?
Sounds like some philosophical stuff. I'm curious as to how this conversation came about. And why your friend felt the need to mention that transgender didn't exist either. Did they mention that androgynous didn't exist?
Personally, if a friend did that to me, I'd take it as a lack of support. I've known a few people who very suddenly have an opinion about something, which ironically goes against a belief I have. I distance myself from those kind of people.
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this?
These might help:
* No one has ever, ever come up with a way to make trans people no longer trans. Thousands of doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, pastors, and healers of various stripes have tried. None have succeeded. If their gender identity were contrived, wouldn't SOME of them be able to change?
* People given a sex change in infancy, retain the gender identity they were given at birth. David Reimer was born a boy, given a sex change at a young age and raised a girl. He never stopped insisting he really was a boy, and eventually killed himself.
* Ask are they sure? Ask how they KNOW there isn't some place in people's brain that is wired to be a certain gender? Have they done brain research? Have they done behavioral research? If the answer to both of these are "no", where does their certainty come from?
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AMHas anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?
Yes. I have a number of feminist friends who find the while "we were born wired to be our identified gender" to be horribly limiting. I understand their point of view. I believe the fact that I was born without wings to be horribly limiting as well, but I don't dive off the tops of buildings pretending I've got 'em.
I believe everyone can be educated, if they want to.
I am not sure that you can convince any zealots of anything. Paid up members of the flat earth society, creationism etc are rarely open to considering alternative views, opinion or inconvenient truths or facts. Gender is real and it is biopsychosocial in nature each of these 3 elements interact with each other in shaping gender identity. Of course if it isn't real then I have turned my life and that of my family upside down for absolutely no reason whatsoever
Aisla
Or meet it with just more philosophy... What color is the sky? Blue? Not really, colors are merely the way we perceive the frequency of little waves of energy. The sky, and everything else, has no color properties, but our minds are able to process how they react to light. It relates like this: In essence, people can be genderless at their core because their actions and such are mostly not a reflection of a gender (as an object doesn't absorb certain frequencies of light by will), but the way it interacts with an external source (in this case, social interaction) is naturally tinted and perceived by the human mind as gender, much as we do the color of physical objects.
What Suzi said with one little addition.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 12, 2014, 07:50:02 AM* Ask are they sure? Ask how they KNOW there isn't some place in people's brain that is wired to be a certain gender? Have they done brain research? Have they done behavioral research? If the answer to both of these are "no", where does their certainty come from?
This is what current scientific research supports and, despite what some people claim, the need for more research doesn't erase all the things that have been discovered so far. There is no biological or statistical evidence of gender roles, but as we know, those aren't gender. There is biological evidence of gender in the brain.
There is plenty of scientific evidence of brain differences in males and females and some that show that some parts of transgender brains are basically different from their assigned gender and very close or indistinguishable from their true gender
There are some famous cases where someone was raised in a gender opposite to the one that was biologically correct (ok, this is true for all transsexuals, but in this cas eI talk about something like cis-boys who had GRS as babies because of some accident). Plus there are intersexed individuals that have gender issues.
And finally transsexuality is not in all cases about gender at all. So if it is about transgender issues, yes maybe in a society that is ideal and has no gender differences or free choosable social genders, for many the issue would go away or be nonexistent, but what about those who know they should have a female body but have been born with male gonads and suffered from testosterone all their lives? How could I KNOW that I need breasts and a vulva and a hundred other things about my body changed even if it was only for myself and if I would have to live on as a boy socially? That does not make any sense if it was only about gender.
For transsexuals in the original sense, it is about their sex, their physical, biological body - and no one can refute that there is a biological dimorphism in humans
Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 12, 2014, 07:47:15 AM
... Uh, what?
Sounds like some philosophical stuff. I'm curious as to how this conversation came about. And why your friend felt the need to mention that transgender didn't exist either. Did they mention that androgynous didn't exist?
Personally, if a friend did that to me, I'd take it as a lack of support. I've known a few people who very suddenly have an opinion about something, which ironically goes against a belief I have. I distance myself from those kind of people.
I basically came out to her about being trans, and her response was to say it doesn't exist. her arguement is that gender and sexuality only exist because we name and categorize things, with nothing physical to back it up, that it is unimportant and fundamentally doesn't effect people.
Im pretty sure every trans person could have something to say about it 'not effecting people' especially in regard to abuse towards sexualities and gender identities historically and in their own lives
Honestly sometimes I'm inclined to agree... I don't really believe in gender :/
Most people would rather see their friends miserable so they can feel better about themselves. Most friends will do this to you at some point, especially if there's a big change in the nature of the relationship. Personally, I'd make new friends and move on with my life.
Quote from: TiffanyT on June 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PMMost people would rather see their friends miserable so they can feel better about themselves. Most friends will do this to you at some point, especially if there's a big change in the nature of the relationship. Personally, I'd make new friends and move on with my life.
Seriously? In my experience,
most people are NOT that defective. When my friends are miserable, I do my best to help them feel better because I am very empathetic and I can feel them hurting. If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.
Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.
Definitely this/\! Who doesn't want to help their friends feel good and care for them? That is why they are friends, they are the next step from family and in most cases a part of the family. :)
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either. Her arguement is that everything from gender roles to the concept of a gender identity is something contrived by humans completely and doesn't have any basis in the real world to stand on. Personally, as someone who feels my body doesn't represent who I am and what I am sometimes told I should be based on what is between my legs, I find this a bit rude.
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this? I am considering distancing from her for now, because I find it easily becomes heated as a discussion. Has anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?
Then you should tell them to do their research. If it wasn't real and didn't exist then A) Males don't exist and neither do female or IS for that matter and B) Lots of real life people with educations wouldn't be telling us it exists. That there is a reason why this happens to people (Talking about how we're formed in the womb and lack of hormone exposure and such) and that transition is in most cases, needed.
My advice besides telling them that, educate them but don't argue with them. If you see a brick wall come up where both of what you're saying isn't working, and it keeps happening, maybe you should find a new friend. Sorry if it comes to that. :(
Philosophical debate aside, when it comes to the value of a friendship, what's important is mutual respect. It's one thing when we see and experience the world in a way that our friends don't understand (and vice versa), it is something else all together when our "friends" think it's their right (or duty) to force their beliefs down our throats.
I have had friends who really did not understand or agree with my transition. Especially in the early years of my transition, I invited one or 2 people that I respect and trust to make every effort to talk me out of it. I figured if they could talk me out of transition, then I had no business transitioning. Those friends did not hold back their opinions about why they thought I was making a mistake. And we had some very lively debates on the subject. But our discussions were always in the spirit of friendship first, mutual respect at all times, and love. There was always give and take in these debates, and we would actively listen to each other and try to understand where each other were coming from. I never felt judged or preached to.
Where there is judgement and inflexibility, there can be no friendship. If that's what is going on with this person, then it's time to cut her loose. At least, that's what I would do.
Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
....If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.
I know a few heels that I'd like to take for a spin around the dance floor. Just sayin'. ;D
Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
Seriously? In my experience, most people are NOT that defective. When my friends are miserable, I do my best to help them feel better because I am very empathetic and I can feel them hurting. If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.
How very empathetic of you.
Quote from: TiffanyT on June 12, 2014, 02:45:38 PM
How very empathetic of you.
Empathy =/= Willingness to take abuse.
I'm really sorry if people in your life have treated you badly or demonstrated schadenfreude at your expense. You certainly didn't deserve it.
maybe time for 'friend' to become 'ex friend'. one must be a little mercenary when it comes to self preservation.
I have dealt With something simular once. I had invited One of my at that time close friends to go to the Beach and watch Stars With some Queen People. She is bisexual and had always knew of me Being trans, and she inviter another guy which also was bisexual and i thought this was no problem untill i found out he Wasnt agenst transgender People Being sterilisere just to change there name. :o
He was very ignorant but the problem was that i expectet her to be on my side but insteed she turne agents me and startes to compare it With the fact she was a tomboy but now feel good about Being a Girl, and that it was just something we had been infected by society like Being bisexual and into s/m (her words not mine)
When the argument came up that it was just infected by society i Said. "But theres also People from Iran which is gay and trans and there society are not very accepting of these" but he did not belive that homoseksualitet exitter in Iran at all..
I i ended up leaving because it was too stupid for me. If it had been today i Would had tried Education Them about gender diversaty but im not sure it World had helped sine i did use slot of time tryimg to explain there things. It also depends on the other person is open or not, one if my friends today used to be ignorant, but she was willing to try and understand and by takling, and explaining and letting her Read about Being trans she become very suportive later on. So its not like its imposible but it has to go both ways. My friend here who had been a tomboy did still Want to be my friend but she did not ser anythibg Wrong With these opinions she had shared which opress me everyday, so i Said i did not feel like Being friends unfurtunatly.
There is tons of critique on that "gender is only social" and the resulting trans exclusive feminist stuff out there. Like this http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/02/trans-inclusive-feminist-movement/
That whole thing about "it only exists because we name it" philosophy was in a workshop that I started to listen in at a trans* conference. I had to leave halfway into it because it was just way too weird. Almost religious - like "we are of no gender , our souls are just little white dots that chose to inhabit a body - if you are trans, it is because your soul has chosen to be so" - I think this was from some hinduist or buddhist sect. For those "Constructivists" that say things only exist because we name them, even physical gender is a construct as well as everything els ein the world, even the table I am sitting in fromt of. It is pure philosophy. Dont apply it to reality ;)
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either.
Second to the typical terf nonsense, this is what sends up red flags for me. A disagreement, even about something this significant, is one thing. If your friend was simply uneducated about transgender issues, but respectful and willing to listen to the vast amounts of scientific data that explain that gender is very much a real phenomenon hardwired into the brain, that would be one thing. The fact that she knows this is a topic you don't want to discuss, and an incredibly personal one at that, yet still shoves her opinions down your throat is a serious boundary violation.
That being said, this ideology conflates gender roles with gender, and you'll be hard pressed to convince any of its proponents otherwise. In fact, the one time I tried to explain the biological basis for being transgender to a radical feminist who believed this way, she explained that scientific studies were part of "the patriarchy." People like this tend to push their agenda and refuse to acknowledge any evidence that doesn't back it up, so there's not usually much you can do except set conversational boundaries and walk away if she insists on crossing them.
Quote from: KlausIn fact, the one time I tried to explain the biological basis for being transgender to a radical feminist who believed this way, she explained that scientific studies were part of "the patriarchy."
Sadly, radical feminism has always been far too influenced by postmodern cultural studies; the latter went over the edge of sanity at least a couple of decades ago.
See, for example, the "
Sokal affair:" In 1996, Dr. Alan Sokal, a professor of physics, submitted an article to the journal
Social Text in which he argued that the laws of physics (specifically, quantum gravity) were a social and linguistic construction, and that 'the concept of "an external world whose properties are independent of any individual human being" was "dogma imposed by the long post-Enlightenment hegemony over the Western intellectual outlook".'
It was a brilliant, deliberate hoax, which he exposed the day the article was published.
Radical feminists have remained unembarrassed, and cling to their own notions of reality, or the lack of it, even when actual people are harmed by their beliefs. Of course, they may believe that actual people are social constructions, as well. >:(
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either.
Yes. I have had a similar experience.
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this?
I used the words "Goodbye & goodluck" and I have not seen her since. It works for me.
Tell her that her opinion is simply wrong compared to the countless people who've studied gender and our identities and etc. in a professional capacity. Also, even if gender is made up, would it matter? Trans people often can face discrimination, the risk of being ostracised, dysphoria, and many other issues at least partly related to it, like anxiety or depression. Why does it matter more to her to tell you it's not real, than to support how you feel? Even if she was right, it doesn't change the fact that people's lives are hell because of it, and that means we should have support even if it is man-made.
I was just reading in the latest issue of TIME and it clearly stated that there is approximately 4.1 million transgendered individuals in America. That's a lot of people that don't exist.
Quote from: Klaus on June 12, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
she explained that scientific studies were part of "the patriarchy."
OMG, that is
ridiculously misogynistic. Did she actually hear what she said? She basically implied that scientific studies can only be performed by - and for the benefit of - men. I don't even.
Ridiculous statements deserve to be ridiculed... and I'm sorry, but if she'd said that to my face I don't think I would've been able to control my laughter.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 13, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
OMG, that is ridiculously misogynistic. Did she actually hear what she said? She basically implied that scientific studies can only be performed by - and for the benefit of - men. I don't even.
Ridiculous statements deserve to be ridiculed... and I'm sorry, but if she'd said that to my face I don't think I would've been able to control my laughter.
I think the sentiment would be that new science is especially a field with a glass ceiling and that society discourages women's involvement in, so it's an authority that women are kept from reaching and influencing and the topics are more likely to be in the interest of men, who are the ones doing the research.
I think there is a point to it, and women in science is an important issue, but obviously it's a little over the top.
Just tell her she's right, we don't exist and then tell her you have to go feed your pet unicorn and just walk off.
I feel that Americans have to add a bit of conspiracy theory to everything, even in this case to radical feminism :P
Oh by the way, the point I left that workshop on construction of gender and sex and everything else was when they literally let us draw a circle on a piece of paper and asked if the circle was still there if the paper was gone. This is maybe fun but it is pure hardcore philosophy akin to "is ther light is there is no darkness" and "how can we know the world exists if we can only know what we sense and senses can be tricked" and "does the back side of the tree exist even if we only see the front side". As I said, this can be fun, but to base real politics or treatment of other people aon it is crazy. And disrespectful. And totally unempathic in this case, as that person should be able to feel that questioning you like that will hurt you.
Quote from: anjaq on June 13, 2014, 12:51:42 PM
I feel that Americans have to add a bit of conspiracy theory to everything, even in this case to radical feminism :P
Oh by the way, the point I left that workshop on construction of gender and sex and everything else was when they literally let us draw a circle on a piece of paper and asked if the circle was still there if the paper was gone. This is maybe fun but it is pure hardcore philosophy akin to "is ther light is there is no darkness" and "how can we know the world exists if we can only know what we sense and senses can be tricked" and "does the back side of the tree exist even if we only see the front side". As I said, this can be fun, but to base real politics or treatment of other people aon it is crazy. And disrespectful. And totally unempathic in this case, as that person should be able to feel that questioning you like that will hurt you.
It is way more fun if there is a conspiricy involved. :D
I agree with you though, philosophical whims are fun but there is a time and place for it and a lot of it can't really be applied to real life.
Quote from: anjaq on June 12, 2014, 03:21:34 PM
There is tons of critique on that "gender is only social" and the resulting trans exclusive feminist stuff out there. Like this http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/02/trans-inclusive-feminist-movement/
That whole thing about "it only exists because we name it" philosophy was in a workshop that I started to listen in at a trans* conference. I had to leave halfway into it because it was just way too weird. Almost religious - like "we are of no gender , our souls are just little white dots that chose to inhabit a body - if you are trans, it is because your soul has chosen to be so" - I think this was from some hinduist or buddhist sect. For those "Constructivists" that say things only exist because we name them, even physical gender is a construct as well as everything els ein the world, even the table I am sitting in fromt of. It is pure philosophy. Dont apply it to reality ;)
Interesting analysis, but it's probably not Buddhist. I used to attend a buddhist group and got into the discussion about sexuality/gender as a topic in one of the priests talks. He put it as something that occurs in that persons life from karma. Also, Buddhism doesn't technically believe in a 'soul' in the sense of our western idea.
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 13, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
Interesting analysis, but it's probably not Buddhist. I used to attend a buddhist group and got into the discussion about sexuality/gender as a topic in one of the priests talks. He put it as something that occurs in that persons life from karma. Also, Buddhism doesn't technically believe in a 'soul' in the sense of our western idea.
Buddhism is practiced by all sorts of people, including a lot of undereducated poor people, so the forms it takes are kind of all over the place. I wouldn't think seeing our souls as "little white dots" is outside the scope of a Buddhist point of view.
Quote from: Felix on June 14, 2014, 08:05:25 AM
Buddhism is practiced by all sorts of people, including a lot of undereducated poor people, so the forms it takes are kind of all over the place. I wouldn't think seeing our souls as "little white dots" is outside the scope of a Buddhist point of view.
True but if you read the teachings of Buddha in written form, it actually says that there is no self, and that the 'soul' we refer to is simply our 'ego' that we cling to. The only things we truly pass on are the knock on effects of our actions and we transform into something in that future (like how energy and mass cant be destroyed, just turned into something else). The soul being accepted in buddist theory is generally a western off-shoot and a more recent one at that.
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 11:47:46 AM
I basically came out to her about being trans, and her response was to say it doesn't exist. her arguement is that gender and sexuality only exist because we name and categorize things, with nothing physical to back it up, that it is unimportant and fundamentally doesn't effect people.
Im pretty sure every trans person could have something to say about it 'not effecting people' especially in regard to abuse towards sexualities and gender identities historically and in their own lives
Well, I guess its safe to say that from what she says its okay to continue going on being trans then, afterall, gender and sexuality don't exist, so shouldn't be a problem with who you are. ;)
I see where her logic is (even though her logic is only but her own - sounds like my brother), take words for example (there are many others I could use but this one I've used a lot), specifically I'll use curse words, most of society frowns on their usage but most use them, its considered inappropriate language and not acceptable to use everywhere, but how is that really? They are words just like any other, if they aren't used to directly insult someone or in some negative way towards hurting someone's feeling or trying to piss them off, then what's wrong with a little bit of a tasty adjective, noun or such that gives that extra oomph when referring about something. Words only have meaning because we created them and gave them such definitions. Otherwise they are empty, just a bunch of letters thrown together. Words are just concepts evolved over time, yet, they exist, without them we'd be communicating by some other means.
But, to say gender and sexuality don't exist, that would be saying we are just empty shells. Those are not concepts or ideas created by people, they are facts of all living things, you are either male or female or a mix-match of the combination, completely whole of body and mind, or as many of us are, trans, body of one sex, mind of another, and since our mind is what makes us who we are, that determines how we perceive ourselves and the world around us. Better yet, we don't exist either, all life on the planet is just a figment of something's imagination - who knows, maybe we are, but it feels damn real to us. Sorry, but your friend's logic doesn't work here. Without gender and sexuality all life on the planet would come to a sudden halt, only then would it not exist as everything would soon cease to exist.
Did I make any sense here, or just confuse everyone? :-\
Quote from: Megan Joanne on June 14, 2014, 09:20:01 AM
I see where her logic is (even though her logic is only but her own - sounds like my brother), take words for example (there are many others I could use but this one I've used a lot), specifically I'll use curse words, most of society frowns on their usage but most use them, its considered inappropriate language and not acceptable to use everywhere, but how is that really? They are words just like any other, if they aren't used to directly insult someone or in some negative way towards hurting someone's feeling or trying to piss them off, then what's wrong with a little bit of a tasty adjective, noun or such that gives that extra oomph when referring about something. Words only have meaning because we created them and gave them such definitions. Otherwise they are empty, just a bunch of letters thrown together. Words are just concepts evolved over time, yet, they exist, without them we'd be communicating by some other means.
Did I make any sense here, or just confuse everyone? :-\
^ I like this girl. 8) Although worded differently, that's exactly how I see curse words as.
You sure did with me.
Quote from: Shana-chan on June 14, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
^ I like this girl. 8) Although worded differently, that's exactly how I see curse words as.
You sure did with me.
Even so, I think it was just an excuse for me to keep using them and for it to sound like its okay. Actual it would be if their use were widely and completely accepted, but its not. So all it does is make me look like an uneducated trash-mouth. See, when I started cursing a lot I was a very angry person, these words were a good way to vent, but over time even after I became happier with myself having used them for so many years way too much it became habit, even using them when its really unnecessary to do so. I must say, probably each day I'd curse around a hundred times (maybe I'm exaggerating, since I never actually counted, but far too much anyway with most sentences containing at least one curse word). Yeah, pretty bad. So, a couple weeks ago with me trying to make more positive changes to myself, this is one of those things that I am trying really hard to work on, trying to find alternative words that aren't so harsh or trashy sounding, because as my mom has always said, "its not very becoming", far from lady-like. I've cut down on cursing a lot, still its a constant thing keeping myself in check and reprimanding myself every time I do use them, just got to keep reminding myself not to. Kind of like keeping a virtual bar of soap in my mouth.
So, with what I said up there, relating this to that friend, I think this friend is just using her crazy logic as an excuse for her to continue to not accept the whole transsexual thing.
I'm afraid I would just be incredibly annoying and turn the whole conversation around, with the likely result of psychoanalysing your friend in an attempt to try and understand why she feels the way she does. I've noticed that a lot of folks prefer to talk about themselves a whole heck of a lot more than they like talking about you, or others.
You might find out things about your friend that you didn't know.
Wheee! I don't actually exist...
I'll try that one next time the cops pull me over.
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either. Her arguement is that everything from gender roles to the concept of a gender identity is something contrived by humans completely and doesn't have any basis in the real world to stand on. Personally, as someone who feels my body doesn't represent who I am and what I am sometimes told I should be based on what is between my legs, I find this a bit rude.
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this? I am considering distancing from her for now, because I find it easily becomes heated as a discussion. Has anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?
Maybe there doesn't need to be a rebuttal to this? If you two want to stay friends can you just agree to not talk about this or does your ability to retain this woman's friendship depend on her coming around to seeing your point of view? (And the opposite question applies - is she not going to be able to be friends with you until you see things her way?)
Has it occurred to you that you might BOTH be wrong?
Quote from: retransition on June 14, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
Maybe there doesn't need to be a rebuttal to this? If you two want to stay friends can you just agree to not talk about this or does your ability to retain this woman's friendship depend on her coming around to seeing your point of view? (And the opposite question applies - is she not going to be able to be friends with you until you see things her way?)
Has it occurred to you that you might BOTH be wrong?
Pretty sure I'm not wrong on my gender issues being serious to me and I would like them to be respected.
I think that mutual respect is a basic pre condition for friendship. Your friend is not listening to you or respecting you.
Aisla
Quote from: retransition on June 14, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
Has it occurred to you that you might BOTH be wrong?
That sexuality and gender doesn't exist? Seriously? I am sure philosophy will debate this forever and never agree. I think what is bad is the friend doesn't respect her enough to support her right or wrong. Friends are friends no matter what happens or path's are taken in life. This friend sounds toxic and is not supportive. That is the real issue.
Whether or not gender is a social construct, society as a whole buys into it. The fact that society attaches certain (wildly incorrect) assumptions to me because of my body causes me discomfort and dysphoria, and that suffering is real regardless. It doesn't matter if gender identities are social constructs - as long as society relies on those constructs and believes in them, people who identify as trans are going to have problems. So whatever your friend believes, she needs to acknowledge that your suffering is real, no matter where it comes from.
Also, as everyone else has said, if she won't respect your feelings there's not a lot you can do but cut her off.
Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 14, 2014, 07:54:11 PM
Pretty sure I'm not wrong on my gender issues being serious to me and I would like them to be respected.
Well then maybe there is your answer. I think it is a reasonable request for you to say something like:
"At this point in time we are obviously not going to agree on this. All that I ask is that you respect that this is how I feel and that it is important to me. Going forward I also promise to afford the same respect toward you and your beliefs."
If she is not amenable to this then tell her "it's been nice knowin' ya".
Problem solved, no?
Quote from: retransition on June 14, 2014, 09:57:01 PM
Well then maybe there is your answer. I think it is a reasonable request for you to say something like:
"At this point in time we are obviously not going to agree on this. All that I ask is that you respect that this is how I feel and that it is important to me. Going forward I also promise to afford the same respect toward you and your beliefs."
If she is not amenable to this then tell her "it's been nice knowin' ya".
Problem solved, no?
Sounds good to me! :)
Gender roles are natural. Sex and sexual variance is natural. Occasionally cross gender role behavior can be found in nature too(rare just like TS people). About the only thing unnatural is to believe it's all black, white and written in stone.
Quote from: Aisla on June 12, 2014, 07:53:13 AM
I am not sure that you can convince any zealots of anything. Paid up members of the flat earth society, creationism etc are rarely open to considering alternative views, opinion or inconvenient truths or facts.
Aisla
It's like trying to get a member of a cult to see the obvious - it is totally useless.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 13, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
OMG, that is ridiculously misogynistic. Did she actually hear what she said? She basically implied that scientific studies can only be performed by - and for the benefit of - men. I don't even.
Ridiculous statements deserve to be ridiculed... and I'm sorry, but if she'd said that to my face I don't think I would've been able to control my laughter.
Yes, Evidence of extreme feelings of male dominance and persecution.
Quote from: Sephirah on June 14, 2014, 01:48:16 PM
I'm afraid I would just be incredibly annoying and turn the whole conversation around, with the likely result of psychoanalysing your friend in an attempt to try and understand why she feels the way she does. I've noticed that a lot of folks prefer to talk about themselves a whole heck of a lot more than they like talking about you, or others.
You might find out things about your friend that you didn't know.
Is your friend saying this so that she can deny that your own personal feelings are real, or to try to somehow justify them? Denial to someone of their feelings, or of facts that are plain and obvious, is well known to be a form of abuse. You might realize she is not the friend you thought she was.