The reason why I'm asking is because I wonder what the odds are of being a victim of aggression if you are living in stealth and absolutely pass. I can't seem to find any stories where a transgender victim in my eyes, actually did "pass".
Sure, it could just be one of those times that any woman gets attacked, be it mugged or raped, and them having no clue that you a woman so happened to be trans. Yep, just got attacked while 100% stealth. It can and has happened I'm sure.
What makes you think that you would hear about it. If I was stealth and wished to stay that way, why would I out myself about being attacked. Makes no sense.
I guess you can concede any woman making the news might have been unknowingly trans, but I find the odds of that happening to be pretty out there.
If this was true, then I wonder if we might have a lot more surviving victims coming out and telling their story. Surely a percentage of 100% passable victims are living openly. But not *one* of these victims stories can be found.
How do you know they are passable or not from a news story?
Photo's of the victim?
But if you are stealth any attention in today's digital age can out you. Are people attacked while 100% passable and living absolutely stealth. Law of averages would say yes. Why don't you here these stories because stealth is to hide. Why step into the light and advertise yourself when it is not in your interest. A police report is anonymous, being in the paper or on tv that 15min can become a whole lot longer
So the question still remains unanswered.
How about this, has a trans woman who passes 100% and not living in stealth ever been attacked or murdered?
I can see attacked, but murdered? Any stories?
It's kind of a silly question. You like asking unanswerable questions, don't you? No offence intended. It just seems like you are genuinely looking for an answer. There isn't one.
I thought so. Not ONE story. :D
That doesn't mean anything, really.
At the very least, it means that out of the 20 or so people who have read this thread over the last few minutes don't have a story on hand and are willing to share it about a 100% passable transwoman being murdered. You're getting a little specific to be able to make any inferences about anything really.
I guess the point I draw from this is, your passability is going to seriously mitigate a lot of assault risk and outcomes that might assail you out in society. I would feel the decision to move forward with transitioning should take this into account wholesale.
I suppose if they were murdered then the story would probably come out, that is once it was leaked to the media. Oh my gosh, and who would've known that this totally passable woman was a transsexual, not until today, the day she was brutally murdered.
^^ Agree'd. But that's the crux, I can't find any articles where the victim actually looks CIS gendered but was really trans.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 13, 2014, 01:02:17 AM
I guess the point I draw from this is, your passability is going to seriously mitigate a lot of assault risk and outcomes that might assail you out in society. I would feel the decision to move forward with transitioning should take this into account wholesale.
That's pretty ridiculous. I would hope nobody uses your little "study" here as a reason not to transition. It's hardly even remotely scientific and nobody knows how passable they are going to be before transitioning. You might think you have a good idea, but we've all seen some unbelievable transitions.
If you look at it another way, then among all woman attacked, the number if 'trans' women attacked is comparatively small.
You always have such quizzical things to ask about. Maybe they passed so completely (that's what the 100% is for) that no one, not even autopsy knew they were trans and not cis-gendered. Okay, so kind of far fetched, but hey, doing my best to formulate some possible answer to the question. :-\
Quote from: Cindy on June 13, 2014, 01:09:23 AM
If you look at it another way, then among all woman attacked, the number if 'trans' women attacked is comparatively small.
Then again if you translate the number of attacks into a representative percentage of the population, CIS or trans, there would be a huge percentage increase on the latter.
Quote from: Megan Joanne on June 13, 2014, 01:14:37 AM
You always have such quizzical things to ask about. Maybe they passed so completely (that's what the 100% is for) that no one, not even autopsy knew they were trans and not cis-gendered. Okay, so kind of far fetched, but hey, doing my best to formulate some possible answer to the question. :-\
BTW You PASS! I have no worries about you whatsoever ;D
But then again, if I were the one they'd know I was trans, besides the obvious male parts, I documented myself aplenty here at Susan's that I am indeed trans, so I'm not completely 100% passable.
By the way, you're so fun to play with. :-*
Quote from: EmoAlice on June 13, 2014, 01:08:53 AM
That's pretty ridiculous. I would hope nobody uses your little "study" here as a reason not to transition. It's hardly even remotely scientific and nobody knows how passable they are going to be before transitioning. You might think you have a good idea, but we've all seen some unbelievable transitions.
Oh there's no argument about this, it's only conjecture. But I'm hoping beyond hope that things aren't really this bad for our community. I'm trying to find cause and effect.
Again, the victims I've seen just don't *really* pass, you can tell easily they are trans, or looked pretty darn queer.
Quote from: Megan Joanne on June 13, 2014, 01:18:33 AM
But then again, if I were the one they'd know I was trans, besides the obvious male parts, I documented myself aplenty here at Susan's that I am indeed trans, so I'm not completely 100% passable.
By the way, you're so fun to play with. :-*
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2F2r6p3zd.jpg&hash=4ea3d555e1dfa1b5d184513fa28d017eab94629d)
Murder no and anyway how would investigators know they where stealth. Unless we are a medium we can not speak to the dead. (Forensics can help them talk to us but it is not the same thing)
I can recall an article in the paper roughly 2005-2008 of a domestic incident that became physical in Sydney that involved some stupidity of two of the members of the NSW police force. Now I can not find the article anymore but from memory she had the argument with her boyfriend at the time. When they found out about her trans status these two officers (and I use that word loosely) preceded to mock her at the station. I believe she made a complaint against them which is how it made the paper and if walk pass her down the street Evelyn you would think she was cis.
Please note the NSW Police Force is a wonderful organization. However like all large groups there is bound to be the odd rotten apple
Would the question be better phrased, " Is there more security for a transwoman if she is 100% passable"?
This, I think, would be my worry. No matter who or what you are there is someone, likely even a group of someone's, that hates you or hates that that they can't understand you.
The amount of people who hate women and would commit atrocities against them is probably a lot lower than the amount who have that hateful opinion of trans* people. If they can't tell that you are trans then they simply "don't see you". So, a hypothesis (your question) could be gathered that passable trans girls have less to worry about as far a safety goes than not so passable trans girls. Like EmoAlice was saying, hard to state this as fact. Human emotion and understanding plays a role, times are changing.
If I am understanding the question correctly, this is a pretty sticky topic...
I'm confused about whether this is an actual question or if yall are just having some kind of in-joke or trolling.
Transwomen get attacked just like ciswomen get attacked. It's just something that happens. It almost never gets reported to authorities, much less makes the news media, so we can't know how often it happens. It does happen.
I think I'm not taking this topic serious enough.
so whose fault is it?
We re talking about this as if women who dont pass deserve to get attacked!
well nobody does...
lets stop discussing who gets attacked more and start blaming the attackers...
Quote from: Michaela Whimsy on June 13, 2014, 01:26:03 AM
Would the question be better phrased, " Is there more security for a transwoman if she is 100% passable"?
This, I think, would be my worry. No matter who or what you are there is someone, likely even a group of someone's, that hates you or hates that that they can't understand you.
The amount of people who hate women and would commit atrocities against them is probably a lot lower than the amount who have that hateful opinion of trans* people. If they can't tell that you are trans then they simply "don't see you". So, a hypothesis (your question) could be gathered that passable trans girls have less to worry about as far a safety goes than not so passable trans girls. Like EmoAlice was saying, hard to state this as fact. Human emotion and understanding plays a role, times are changing.
If I am understanding the question correctly, this is a pretty sticky topic...
Or, "Does passing privilege improve a transwoman's security?"
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 13, 2014, 01:20:20 AM
Again, the victims I've seen just don't *really* pass, you can tell easily they are trans, or looked pretty darn queer.
I suppose it's not bad enough that they were attacked - we'd better rub salt in their wounds by talking about the way they look to achieve maximum levels of victim blaming.
Maybe the nitty gritty needs to be talked about in our community. Why candy coat the stuff that impacts us?
Okay, was going to sleep, changed me mind.
Of coarse I think passing more would help in getting attacked less. Passability does improve your chances of avoiding those looking to attack one who is transgender. If you look like any other cis-woman--aside from possible attacks just for that fact only, being a woman, especially if caught alone--then they'll most likely pay you very little mind. I still worry about not passing well enough, or someone, the wrong person finding out, such observations or info can be used to commit an act of violence against me because of my being transgender.
You do come up with some doozies for questions, spicy stuff.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 13, 2014, 01:36:27 AM
Maybe the nitty gritty needs to be talked about in our community. Why candy coat the stuff that impacts us?
Why do you think this needs to be talked about? Yes, some uncomfortable stuff is good to talk about, but what's the point of this particular topic?
Quote from: Megan Joanne on June 13, 2014, 01:41:44 AM
Okay, was going to sleep, changed me mind.
Of coarse I think passing more would help in getting attacked less. Passability does improve your chances of avoiding those looking to attack one who is transgender. If you look like any other cis-woman--aside from possible attacks just for that fact only, being a woman, especially if caught alone--then they'll most likely pay you very little mind. I still worry about not passing well enough, or someone, the wrong person finding out, such observations or info can be used to commit an act of violence against me because of my being transgender.
You do come up with some doozies for questions, spicy stuff.
Truthfully with my questions, I do sense a lot of underlying hatred within our community even directed towards me, even on the trans forums here. When and *if* I do pass myself, I really doubt I'll be posting photo's of myself in the trans-after-life. Stalkers and personal info moles and jealous people with vendettas and what not.
Quote from: EmoAlice on June 13, 2014, 01:45:13 AM
Why do you think this needs to be talked about? Yes, some uncomfortable stuff is good to talk about, but what's the point of this particular topic?
Soul searching.
Quote from: Declan. on June 13, 2014, 01:33:54 AM
I suppose it's not bad enough that they were attacked - we'd better rub salt in their wounds by talking about the way they look to achieve maximum levels of victim blaming.
Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on June 13, 2014, 01:27:36 AM
so whose fault is it?
We re talking about this as if women who dont pass deserve to get attacked!
well nobody does...
lets stop discussing who gets attacked more and start blaming the attackers...
Bingo jango sugar in the gas tank.
Why are we blaming the victims. I mean unless you have decided to strap raw slabs of meat to yourself and walk past thebig cat section of the local zoo at feeding time. Shouldn't we all be allowed to walk when and where we want. Yes bad things happen to people it is called life. Something we all have to face up to, saying you look 100% you will be fine is not a golden ticket in protection from attack, saying someone will never pass dose not put an automatic target on there back. The sad fact of life is there is lowlifes out there that want to hit something with more brain cells then them. The trick is spotting them before they spot you
Just because you "don't pass" very well doesn't automatically put a target on you (you can be supposedly not very passable your whole life, yet somehow never have any or many big issues with anyone bothering you about it), but I'm sure for each of us that is the fear (not just for violent attacks but any that will call us out as not being of the gender we feel inside, but maybe perhaps not completely on the outside), afterall we do what we can to make ourselves as passable as possible, to fit in as normally as any other cis-person and to avoid harrassment.
honestly being 100% stealth mtf i havent even found someone who doesnt accept me yet
(when i came out to them.. which is a totlal of maybe 10 people. i guess like 98% stealth.. lol)
This topic is making me space out, either that or I'm really tired, I'm still trying to figure out if I made any sense in my previous post. Too much thinking. I still say yes to the topic question, has to have happened somewhere sometime, we just didn't know about it. 100% stealth, so it was totally in the dark that they were ever trans. Can't believe you got me pondering this for so long.
Quote from: immortal gypsy on June 13, 2014, 01:52:25 AM
Bingo jango sugar in the gas tank.
Why are we blaming the victims. I mean unless you have decided to strap raw slabs of meat to yourself and walk past thebig cat section of the local zoo at feeding time. Shouldn't we all be allowed to walk when and where we want. Yes bad things happen to people it is called life. Something we all have to face up to, saying you look 100% you will be fine is not a golden ticket in protection from attack, saying someone will never pass dose not put an automatic target on there back. The sad fact of life is there is lowlifes out there that want to hit something with more brain cells then them. The trick is spotting them before they spot you
Also agreed here. We should just abolish victim blaming.
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 13, 2014, 01:45:43 AM
Truthfully with my questions, I do sense a lot of underlying hatred within our community even directed towards me, even on the trans forums here. When and *if* I do pass myself, I really doubt I'll be posting photo's of myself in the trans-after-life. Stalkers and personal info moles and jealous people with vendettas and what not.
Dear, I hate to say that, but You are clearly overestimating Your possible importance in the eyes of those online stalkers and other people with "vendettas" or whatnot.
... I really hope so...
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 13, 2014, 03:06:44 AM
... I really hope so...
Then please stop worrying and start enjoying Your life :). It is full moon and Friday 13 today - is not life grand? :) :) :)
Quote from: Evelyn K on June 13, 2014, 12:17:01 AM
The reason why I'm asking is because I wonder what the odds are of being a victim of aggression if you are living in stealth and absolutely pass. I can't seem to find any stories where a transgender victim in my eyes, actually did "pass".
Pretty triggering and judgmental question/statement
Have you considered that possibly some victims of aggression would rather not be reminded of the incident and/or may not appreciate their passability being called into question?
Topic Locked
Thank you
V M