Hi, Everybody!
A question has arisen in my mind, and I'm trying to analyze my feelings here. Maybe some of you would like to share your feelings on this question. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers on this one--at least I hope not. I think it's simply how you feel about things.
The question I've been asking myself is, Do I envy cisgender people? One thing that I am clear in my mind on is that I don't envy cisgender men. That is, given a choice I wouldn't be one. Not that I dislike men. It's simply not my mindset. Being a cisgender man simply has no appeal for me at all.
And yet I feel equally clear that I do envy cisgender women. So often when I see a woman I say to myself, "That's what I should have been." Particularly when I think of some woman that I really like--Julie Christie, e.g. Then there's no denying that I'm envious. Such a woman will make me feel inadequate.
But if I recognize that I'm envious of ciswomen, does that imply that I'm recognizing that a transwoman is somehow inferior to a ciswoman? After all, if I feel that being one thing is preferable to being another thing, am I not recognizing that the latter is inferior to the former? Am I not accepting that the latter is lacking something that the former has?
I'm not sure about this. It is possible, e.g., for a perfectly good carpenter to wish that he could have been a doctor. Is he then saying that carpentry is automatically a lesser occupation than medicine? Is he saying that a doctor is right to look down on a perfectly competent carpenter? Is he saying that carpentry is less valid as an option than medicine?
I'm not sure that he is. He might simply be saying that given the sort of person he is, medicine would have suited him better than carpentry. And thus perhaps, even if someone wishes that they'd been born cisgender, they're not automatically saying that being trans is less valid as an option than being cis. They're not necessarily saying that a transwoman is lacking in any way compared to a ciswoman or that a transman is lacking in any way compared to a cisman.
It's occurred to me, too, that if I say I'm envious of ciswomen, this could perhaps be construed as meaning that I still feel a certain amount of shame about being transgender. And yet I don't feel ashamed of being trans. I've been out full-time for over a year and a half now, and it's been the happiest time of my life.
I accept that I'm trans, I feel no shame or embarrassment about being trans, it feels wonderful getting out in the world as a transperson--and yet I'm envious. What does that say about me?
Any comments are welcome. Best wishes to all,
Foxglove
Well, personal thoughts on the matter: Lots of women are jealous of other women for certain qualities they posses. I find that Im certainly not jealous of all cis-gendered women, though I know that probably comes off a bit ... harsh... I don't think being jealous implies inferiority, it merely implies a recognized difference.
Do I envy cis-women. For I time is certainly did. There is a lot that I missed out on that I have fantasized about for decades. From the mundane (getting my period, giggling about boys, looking ever so pretty) to the more profound, (bearing children, growing into young womanhood, being accepted as a girl as the automatic default). But as I move from transition to living - not so much.
What I learned, the opportunities that I had, the people I loved when living as Doug, made Julie possible. I am more than the sum of my experiences, but my life experience shaped who I became, and I truly like the girl I have evolved into. As a girl, it is doubtful that I would have watched the Northern Lights play above an iridescent ocean, or ridden a motorcycle solo from Fairbanks to San Jose Del Cabo. I may not have had the chutzpah to begin companies, or the drive to finish graduate school while working full time. Even becoming an alcoholic, and finding recovery and the blessings that brings is a part of my story.
The point is that my story is simply my story. If I had been raised a girl it would have most certainly been different. Maybe better, maybe not. Certainly not the same, and I would be a different person as a result. Transition has required that I examine and challenge the fundamentals of who I am, what I believe, and how I relate to the world. It is that challenge that has permitted transcendence into maturity, and into womanhood.
In some ways I have been tempered, not into steel, but into art. For that blessing I am grateful. I have found true friends, lovers, and teachers as a woman who accept me without condition, and with enormous affection. I have been given the gift of being useful in ways that cis-women will never know. Not because they cannot, but because they don't have to in order to survive.
I am happy, and proud of my status as a woman by choice as well as by by internal necessity. I don't need to always pass, and I don't need to be stealth anywhere or at any time. For me, today, this is my voice and my dream.
Hugs to all,
Julie
My first reaction to your post is to say you might be overthinking things a little, hon.
Maybe all you're envious of is that cis women were born with the fleshy parts to match the mind-stuff you both share? And maybe you're envious of them being able to live that way from birth. It doesn't have to be any reflection on being trans at all, just a yearning for being able to live as you from the start.
Sometimes. The odd thing is I envy cis women as well as cis men.
Thanks to those of you who've replied so quickly. You've already given me some things to think about. I'm hardly young as a person, but am still quite young as a transwoman (if you take my meaning), so I always value the insights that more experienced people can give me.
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 20, 2014, 11:21:45 AM
In what way(s) do a ciswomen make you feel inadequate?
Good question. This is part of the answer:
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 20, 2014, 11:21:45 AM. . . I believe it's possible your envy is born from the fact that you likely wish you'd been a girl your whole life, had the stereotypical girl experiences, and grown up from a girl into a woman--and the only way you see that would have been possible is if you were born cisfemale. . .
But here's a little encounter I had recently: I ran into a woman in town. It turned out she was an out-of-towner looking for directions to the pharmacy, so I helped her on her way. I happened to run into her again a bit later when she was on her way back, so we stopped and had a bit of chat about this and that, before we went our separate ways.
She blew me away--young, gorgeous, a genuinely nice person, and simply a class act all the way. She certainly left me feeling inadequate. Basically because no one was going to question her status as a woman--whereas lots of people would question mine. She had everything I would like to have. Comparing her with me, lots of people would react to me with nothing but disdain.
But while reading Julie Blair's post, I've come to realize that some people have a certain maturity that I haven't yet achieved. Basically, you have to accept what you have and work with that. I think a lot of my feelings involve a sort of "grass is always greener" outlook. Certainly a cisgender woman's life isn't always a bowl of cherries, no matter who she is. It's easy for me to believe that if I were this or if I were that, I wouldn't have any problems in life. I'm old enough to know better than that, so maybe I should accept what I know to be true.
Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 20, 2014, 11:21:45 AMI am so happy that you are the happiest you've ever been and I hope that you continue to find more and more happiness as time goes on.
One thing that helps me is comparing what life was like only a couple of years ago to what it is now. One thing I keep coming back to is that these days I feel a deep, fundamental sense of dignity within me that I never felt before. I'm not completely sure why this is. I just know that in my past life I never felt very good about myself, never liked what I was. Now that I've decided to be my true self, I feel very good about myself doing nothing more complicated than walking down the street. I feel like I'm worth something. And it's a very nice feeling.
Quote from: Sephirah on June 20, 2014, 11:35:45 AM
My first reaction to your post is to say you might be overthinking things a little, hon.
Maybe all you're envious of is that cis women were born with the fleshy parts to match the mind-stuff you both share? And maybe you're envious of them being able to live that way from birth....
Or is it envy that cis women do not have to struggle with the freedom to express their gender identity the way trans women must struggle? In other words, is the envy you speak of manifest from your belief that cis women are somehow free to live their lives without struggle or suffering? I'm here to tell you that there are many many cis women out their in the world who suffer in ways that we cannot even begin to imagine in the midst of our own struggles to freely express who we are. Everyone who lives has her own cross to bear, and none are free of the human condition. One big thing that cis women and trans women will always have in common is that we're all free to choose how we will handle our own brand of struggle; we are all free to choose the kind of woman we will be, happy or sad, angry or joyful, strong or weak, as we move through time.
Life is way too short for me to squander my precious life energy on something as debilitating as envy. Let those so inclined envy me, because I'm living my life to the absolute fullest!
I love me so much!
Quote from: Miharu Barbie on June 20, 2014, 12:02:49 PM
Life is way too short for me to squander my precious life energy on something as debilitating as envy. Let those so inclined envy me, because I'm living my life to the absolute fullest!
^THIS^ X1000.
When I really started feeling the dysphoria kick into overdrive toward the end of 2012, I couldn't look at a single GG without feeling it. I could find something about pretty much every one I saw that I envied, even ones that weren't conventionally pretty or even young, whether it was gorgeous hair, nice legs, or just the way they carried themselves. I also started feeling envious of my cisguy friends because apparently none of them had problems with their assigned gender or with what they saw in the mirror. I have lots of guy friends who are fat, looking old for their age, have various stages of baldness, or not terribly physically attractive that can look in the mirror, smile and say, "Perfect! Good to go. Damn right I'm awesome..."
After HRT and some months of introspection, I came to realize that this kind of envy was nothing but toxic crap that did nothing but fuel the anxiety and depression that go along with gender dysphoria. I am now content in knowing that I am an awesome work in progress, that I am finally addressing my issues, what I see in the mirror just gets better every day and if I hit a brick wall there are surgeons out there that can help me get what I feel I need.
Suck it dysphoria! In the words of the great philosopher of our time, Charlie Sheen, "Winning!"
Well, if wishes were fishes I would own tuna town. I live in a coastal fishing area. ;) I get the envy and have experienced it too. And then being a transgender girl is very special, totally unique and for me a busy transition. We all have friends who wish they were or had more and we know there are seemingly gorgeous dolls who still think they are fat or ugly. If we are capable of pointing our metaphorical headlights in any direction I suggest Julie's "transcendence into maturity, and into womanhood."
The short answer is: not as much as I used to.
For a long time before I started gender identity therapy I was convinced I would have to spend the rest of my life looking masculine in every possible way, so I envied cis-women for anything I felt I was lacking. But now I realise there was never anything particularly masculine about me. I don't look male in any way, I just look like an average female. And people around me don't treat me any differently than other women. Strangers assume I'm a cis-woman. My sister keeps forgetting I'm not cis. To my nieces I have retroactively "always" been aunt Emma, and they find it perfectly normal to help their aunt through puberty.
The one remaining unfulfillable wish is to be able to get pregnant, but that's a wish I share with many cis-women. So no matter how I look at my life I'm not in any way more/less normal/unique than any other women on the planet.
As an individual who would have rather been born Female, I do envy cisgender people.
They get all of society's breaks and do not have to fight for any rights. I'm an individual who may irritate a lot of people's emotions with the following statement. In any society that any individual has to fight for any rights is a society not worth knowing. AS that society, does it actually value life?
YES, I DO ENVY THEM!
I feel like if you are not a strict MtF (I don't know baout FtM) you are probably not going to envy them that much...
Speaking of girls not guys : On the street, yes. Their freedom- yes. How they look - yes. Triggers my physical dysphoria. Gets me jealous.
But not socially, oddly enough, in that scenario I am quite happy just being me. I like who I am now in my current hybrid GQ presentation.
My perspective is different. (nonbinary but full hormones).
Have fun with it girls... :)
I did for a long time but not anymore. I just see it as sort of..I'm special and they're not. Not in a narcisstic way. It's just I used to believe the lie that "normality" was equal with superiority and I don't anymore. Normality is basic. It's a primal step in evolution. People who are different are the next step...pioneers of the next generation.
I think when you progress through transition and you're able to take a step back you realize some really interesting. So many cishet people have so much hatred for anyone that's different and after a while you realize that hate truly is their problem because it's something that's inside of them that's nasty and ugly and something like that must come from a real dark and ignorant place.
So. Yeah. I prefer this way because...living in a way that isb"forbidden" allows you to see things more clearly. So it's a gift i think yo be able to take control of my gender and self expression and make it what I want, and I think it gives me a view on life that cis people can never have. And despite the hate, there are many who are jealous if that.
I used to envy cis men a lot, but I don't feel that way anymore now that I have been on T long enough and I am seen as just one of the guys. I just see myself as a guy with a few deformities that I want to fix surgically.
But more generally, I envy both cis men and cis women for the comforts they are afforded by being in the correct body. For example, at my new job I will have to take my clients swimming, and I certainly can't strip down in the changing room so I will always have to find a way around that. Beyond that, I am at the mercy of the people who run the pool - I have to hope they're not going to tell me I'm violating a dress code and kick me out. Because I certainly can't wear a bikini or female swimsuit but I can't wear just trunks either.
no. I'm having fun creating my own womanhood.
surprisingly i dont envy cisgender but its other transgenders i envy o:
Honestly, not at all. If I was given a choice to be born a natal female or be how I am now I would undoubtedly choose the latter. I would rather face all the pain and struggle I've had to to be the person I am today. I would not trade it for anything and I doubt I would be who I am if it weren't for all the problems I've had to face in life. I mean, there are days where I wish I didn't have to go through all this and wish I was just born a natal female, but I don't envy anyone. :)
I don't think your envy of cis females and not cis males has to do with believing trans-woman are inferior. I think it's more to do with the fact that if you identify as such then it's quite logical to think that you wish you were born that way and wouldn't have to go through all the pain that I'm sure most, if not all transgender people do. For example: say you are a trans-woman and had the body of a male you'd obviously get dysphoric about it and wish you had the parts of a person born physically female. And I'm glad you don't feel ashamed. There is no reason to. People don't get to choose how they are born, yet alone to be born. No one from birth earned being born a certain way so no one has a right to put you or anyone else down about being transgender.
The only reason a certain group of people have more rights than others is because of those in power and society and there is no damn way I will ever change just to get these 'rights'. I do whatever I want and see myself as a human being and nothing more or less. I have my own rights in itself and no one will ever take that from me. Every single person from every walk of life has problems whether they show it or not or choose to acknowledge it. I've said this many times to people in real life but if I were the only different person in this world then I would still not change even at the cost of my life. I lived too long as a follower and am not afraid to show my true colours. Sorry if I'm not making sense right now, I just woke up.
~Val
I did in the past, but I don't anymore. Things are what they are.
Meh....
What I envy is how a cis person can wear their birth identity with ease, as I can't relate to that.
What I admire is how a trans person can struggle through, accept themselves, and make changes as necessary.
As to which is better, it's an individual thing.
For a long time I did, but part of my being able to move forward with my future and transition was to let ago of the past and all baggage that went with. This includes any envy that I might have towards both Cis-men and Cis-women. I wouldn't be the person I am without those experiences and much as those experiences were torture, they were also a gift at the same time. I am the open minded and understanding person I am today because of them.
Hey, I envy some trans women as much as I do any cis women. I agree with Julie, as I move from transition to living as a woman the envy has abated.
Yes, more than anything.
I've been going through a bit of a rough patch recently where I'm having to face that I'm basically never completely going to have what I want. I'm always going to be looking in the mirror and seeing my big shoulders and blocky frame and feeling unfeminine, and feeling like I don't even deserve to be considered female at all. I have to worry EVERY single day whether I'm passing or not, and constantly have to wonder if every single stare is because people are clocking me.
Cis women can just take their femaleness for granted, and never have to question it, and a bad hair day is just a bad hair day, and a bad outfit is just a bad outfit, rather than a threat to whether they look female at all.
That and then there's the whole functional reproductive organs thing.
:(
Quote from: Carrie Liz on June 20, 2014, 10:36:20 PM
Cis women can just take their femaleness for granted, and never have to question it, and a bad hair day is just a bad hair day, and a bad outfit is just a bad outfit, rather than a threat to whether they look female at all.
There are cis women who if they get a bad haircut are sir'd or some such thing. Other FAAB people prob constantly get referred to as trans or something if they stray to far into what is deemed masculine. Some trans women prolly pass better as women then cis women. I was outside the CVS with my BF once and some girl got arrested and the female cop called the shoplifter "the girl who looks like man." She hardly looked like a man. She had short hair. I mean if you go the other way and think of FTMs, many prolly think cis males take their manhood for granted but I can't even count how many times pre-HRT someone either thought I was a girl, or made some remark about my feminity. Like once I went to a bar with my friend and she snuck in and I went to pay and the bartender said it's ladies night and I said I'm a guy and he looked again and said, "well, close enough." I felt this small. I knew I was trans then. Well that I had an IS/DSD condition, but it still stung. So, yeah.
In any event, where ya been Carrie? I missed you. It's so lonely 'round these parts anymore. I actually don't know why I come here.
I decided to take a break from the site for the purpose of the whole "just trying to go live my life and not think so much about transition anymore" thing. Lots of people were telling me that I was ready. It worked for a few weeks, but then once I got out into the wide world away from my little safe bubble of trans friends, I ended up falling down into a REALLY bad dysphoric bout which I still haven't recovered from.
Admittedly, I'm sore about the whole not being cis thing, because I'm basically unable to see a girl when I look in the mirror due to my bone structure, receded hairline, and still male-ish face. Every single day is a battle with myself to convince myself that I really am female enough... amidst a ton of stares, one recent misgendering that really threw me off, and basically CONSTANTLY feeling inadequate every single time I'm forced to look at the small bone structure and natural femaleness of cis-women. I still can't just be a girl and take it for granted, and it's frankly driving me freaking insane. I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired of feeling like someone who's just barely squeaking onto the radar of being gendered female by people. I just want to look in the mirror and see a girl for once, and not have a million "buts" getting in the way of it, where certain feminine parts are constantly fighting against certain still-blatantly-masculine parts.
I just want to KNOW that I'm a girl, instead of having to constantly convince myself.
Sigh...
Quote from: Carrie Liz on June 21, 2014, 12:29:02 AM
I decided to take a break from the site for the purpose of the whole "just trying to go live my life and not think so much about transition anymore" thing. Lots of people were telling me that I was ready. It worked for a few weeks, but then once I got out into the wide world away from my little safe bubble of trans friends, I ended up falling down into a REALLY bad dysphoric bout which I still haven't recovered from.
Admittedly, I'm sore about the whole not being cis thing, because I'm basically unable to see a girl when I look in the mirror due to my bone structure, receded hairline, and still male-ish face. Every single day is a battle with myself to convince myself that I really am female enough... amidst a ton of stares, one recent misgendering that really threw me off, and basically CONSTANTLY feeling inadequate every single time I'm forced to look at the small bone structure and natural femaleness of cis-women. I still can't just be a girl and take it for granted, and it's frankly driving me freaking insane. I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired of feeling like someone who's just barely squeaking onto the radar of being gendered female by people. I just want to look in the mirror and see a girl for once, and not have a million "buts" getting in the way of it, where certain feminine parts are constantly fighting against certain still-blatantly-masculine parts.
I just want to KNOW that I'm a girl, instead of having to constantly convince myself.
Sigh...
your look like your average run of the mill girl in your picture your breasts are shaped quite nicely.
Short answer: no.
But then again given my other "disorder" (asperger's syndrome) I'm pretty much incapable of envy or jealousy. Until I started taking estrogens the only emotions I really knew were confusion and distress. Otherwise I was as cold as an ice block. Now I get sometimes overloaded with random floods of emotions and it will probably still take a few months before I'm capable of handling it :-) .
Sure, I pretty much stopped living at the age of 11 when I have read like three books about puberty and few other about human biology and didn't find a single paragraph that would explain why I thought something is terribly wrong with my body. But I doubt that anything would give me the sense of self-realization, freedom and love for myself and my life besides what I'm going through right now. Would I actually ever feel something like that if I wasn't a transsexual?
I hope it makes a bit of sense :-) .
It is really hard to say. I really don't think I envy anyone. Would I have rather been born female? Most definately but as myself female. I would say I probably feel more anger or depression at chance or nature or even God. Come on 50/50 chance and I ended up the wrong gender physically? WTH. But luck or whatever is not really on my side. If there wer 5 paper bags in front of me and they all contained 50,000 dollars except for one that contained rattlesnakes. I would pick the rattlesnake bag every freakin' time. But I ain't in no need or rattlesnake boots and shoes though. So I guess that is a silver lining. ???