Poll
Question:
Transsexuals possess the brains of their target sex.
Option 1: true
Option 2: false
Good morning guys and dolls, and welcome to Nero's Not-so Pointless Poll of the Day!
This is in response to the question Child of the Light posed to me in Hypatia's 'Primary and secondary' thread. I was so busy issuing apologies that I never got around to answering.
Do TS possess the brains of their target sex?
The answers 'I don't know' and 'maybe' are redundant here, since we don't have the facts one way or another.
If you think the statement:
'Transsexuals possess the brains of their target sex.'
Is probably true, vote 'true'.
Is probably false, vote 'false'.
Yes, I am going somewhere with this.
This informative poll was brought to you by our sponsor, 107.6 N.E.R.O. Bringing you the best in inspired rants and informative polls non-stop, every hour on the hour with no commercial breaks.
Here is a link to some research that was done in the netherlands. I have the original paper and I see if I can find it. just contact me if your interested in reading it.
~Mischa
PS. my vote is yes, TS do possess the brain of the target gender.
http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?p=613
Quote from: Mischa on July 25, 2007, 10:02:14 AM
Here is a link to some research that was done in the netherlands. I have the original paper and I see if I can find it. just contact me if your interested in reading it.
Here is a followup study that calls the previous into question:
http://eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107
I vote yes, too. But for different reasons.
I used to work with a fellow in the same cubical. This was before I ever thought about transitioning. One day he was on the phone with his wife disagreeing about his mother-in-law. He hung up the phone and made a comment about expecting an arguement when he got home. I suggested that he difuse the situation by as soon as he walked in the door saying, "Tell me how you feel about what you wanted to talk about."
He sat there for several seconds staring at me, and then said, "I don't have any idea what you just said."
I would say the two of us had very different brains. And his was the male one.
I voted yes.
When I die please get clarification as I am leaving my Brain to Nero.
The boobs are up for grabs.
Buffy
I think yes! I believe that I have a male brain, its just the body I'm lacking. ::)
i will not vote, as i think SOME ts do, and some dont, but this is the 'true transexual, transition for id crisis/attention debate.
Quote from: Kiera on July 25, 2007, 11:08:23 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 25, 2007, 10:56:07 AMthe two of us had very different brains.
Question:
"Do you know why some doctors used take brand newborns up by the ankles (not so much anymore) and slap 'em firmly on the arse?
Answer: (didn't wait for my reply)
"The dick always would fall off on the dumb ones!"
:icon_bunch:
Kiera where do you get this sort of information? :P
I wonder if I'll be the only NO vote here, lol...
I've never believed my brain was physically female. I just see that as grasping for justification.
I have NO clue why I feel the way I do.
And that's OK with me.
As is how I feel ;)
~Kate~
I voted YES. I do have a female brain. What can I say!!!!!!!
Deb
Quote from: Kiera on July 25, 2007, 11:16:16 AM
Quote from: Jaston on July 25, 2007, 11:09:48 AMKiera where do you get this sort of information? :P
Quote from: Kiera on July 25, 2007, 11:08:23 AM(very old pilot joke) :icon_bunch:
LOL Always "anticipating" your desires dear I added this after just posting! I used to work what's called "Lower Aircraft/Crew Operations" for Pan American. ;D
Ahhh no I get it! :)
Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 11:10:17 AM
I've never believed my brain was physically female.
I'm not really talking about that so much as the
mind. Not the scenario where they dissect your brain at autopsy and point to it and say 'This brain is female. Yeah, Kate, you were a woman.'
Because that also seems like a long shot to me.
But I find both questions - "Is the brain (mind) that of the target sex?" and "Is the brain physically that of the target sex?" revelant, so all voting and posting, interpret the question as you wish.
why let uncertaintys bother you?
Quote from: Rachael on July 25, 2007, 11:34:51 AM
why let uncertaintys bother you?
Huh? Oh, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other if they open my brain at autopsy and say 'male brain or female brain'. I'd still know I had been a man.
I have been told by others around me, at different times in my life that I think like a woman, so I answered true.
Do I know the answer to this question, not really.
Sarah L.
kids these days...
oh wait... :o
Quote from: Rachael on July 25, 2007, 11:09:32 AM
i will not vote, as i think SOME ts do, and some dont, but this is the 'true transexual, transition for id crisis/attention debate.
You've got a point there.
Posted on: July 25, 2007, 12:44:04 PM
Quote from: Nero on July 25, 2007, 11:31:34 AM
Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 11:10:17 AM
I've never believed my brain was physically female.
I'm not really talking about that so much as the mind. Not the scenario where they dissect your brain at autopsy and point to it and say 'This brain is female. Yeah, Kate, you were a woman.' Because that also seems like a long shot to me.
As far as the physical part goes, whether it was before HRT or not, HRT changes the macroscopic anatomy of the brain so that it looks like the brain of the gender matching the hormones.
http://eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107
Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 11:10:17 AM
I wonder if I'll be the only NO vote here, lol...
Not any more, although my 'no' is more a 'not completely'.
There is some evidence (such as the article at http://www.psy-journal.com/article/PIIS0165178105002714/abstract (http://www.psy-journal.com/article/PIIS0165178105002714/abstract)) that in some respects the mind of transsexuals does indeed resemble that of cissexuals of their birth sex, even after HRT. On the other hand, that's likely to not be the whole truth either. I would have liked to answer something between 'yes' and 'no', but that was not an option.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on July 25, 2007, 12:49:22 PM
There is some evidence (such as the article at http://www.psy-journal.com/article/PIIS0165178105002714/abstract (http://www.psy-journal.com/article/PIIS0165178105002714/abstract)) that in some respects the mind of transsexuals does indeed resemble that of cissexuals of their birth gender, even after HRT. On the other hand, that's likely to not be the whole truth either. I would have liked to answer something between 'yes' and 'no', but that was not an option.
What that article is saying is that starting estrogen doesn't suddenly make you bad at math, or starting testosterone doesn't cause language problems, etc.
I agree with you there Regina, we do have somewhat of a biased audience here.
Sarah L.
Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 11:10:17 AM
I wonder if I'll be the only NO vote here, lol...
I've never believed my brain was physically female. I just see that as grasping for justification.
I have NO clue why I feel the way I do.
And that's OK with me.
As is how I feel ;)
~Kate~
Nero my brain is not physically a female brain. However I tend to agree more with the female responses than the male responses. I agree with what Kate said but I voted Yes because I mis-interpreted your question. Can you include "change my vote option" on future surveys. If Kate's intrepretion is the correct interpretation then I agree with her and would vote no.
But I do some things just like a male so that the best answer is it depends on the circumstances. And some genetic females (that are totally confident with their gender) are extremely decisive as if they occupied a male role.
Quote from: Wendy on July 25, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 11:10:17 AM
I wonder if I'll be the only NO vote here, lol...
I've never believed my brain was physically female. I just see that as grasping for justification.
I have NO clue why I feel the way I do.
And that's OK with me.
As is how I feel ;)
~Kate~
Nero my brain is not physically a female brain but my thought pattern is much closer to the MTF than the FTM. I agree with what Kate said but I voted Yes because I interpreted your question to be the thought process. Can you include "change my vote option" on future surveys. If Kate's intrepretion is correct then I agree with her and would vote no.
That's what I was referring to - the mind, the the inner workings, the way things are processed.
I too think that saying the brain is 'physically' that of the target gender is a long shot.
When I don't include the 'change vote' option in a poll, it's because I want a gut reaction. I don't want you mulling it over. However, I do include that in some surveys.
:: shuffle, shuffle :: The sound of Thundra skulking away could barely be heard.
[No way am I getting involved in this zie muttered. I'm outta here.]
Quote from: Nero on July 25, 2007, 07:23:45 PM
When I don't include the 'change vote' option in a poll, it's because I want a gut reaction. I don't want you mulling it over. However, I do include that in some surveys.
Dear Nero you want a "gut reaction" or you want us to "shoot from the hip". My male bosses always used phrases like that. :) You are thinking like a male!
I think about things and try to evaluate the information. My brain at autopsy will be tiny. Our brains shrink as we age. ;)
Quote from: regina on July 25, 2007, 11:04:08 PM
Quote from: Wendy on July 25, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
my thought pattern is much closer to the MTF than the FTM.
Don't really understand. What is the specific thought pattern of a MTF? I'm still trying to figure that one out?
ciao,
Gina M.
Females question everything. Males just say come on let's get it done. ;)
Regina you are correct. My thought pattern is my though pattern. I am sorry that I offended you. That was not my intension. I am actually in a silly mood this evening.
...........
Nero you tricked me! You are devilish. This is circular reasoning. Yes I do believe "some" MTF's will physically have the brain structure of their target gender. However most certainly not "all" MTF's will have the brain structure of their target gender so in that case the answer is No.
The correct answer is "Maybe" not Yes or No.
.....................
Thank you Kiera. Kiera you need to yell a little louder to me. Very funny Nero. Nero you got me.
MAYBE... MAYBE... MAYBE... MAYBE! That is the correct answer. ;)
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 25, 2007, 12:54:23 PM
What that article is saying is that starting estrogen doesn't suddenly make you bad at math, or starting testosterone doesn't cause language problems, etc.
Yes. However, it also says that with respect to such traits, transsexuals are just about where their birth sex would suggest, away from their target sex. So, there are at least
some mental traits where the answer to Nero's question is 'no'. Of course, this is all statistical, and in general there is too much variation between individuals to lump all males together and all females together. Still, the bottom line is that in these traits they did not find significant differences between transsexuals and their birth sex, either before or after HRT.
Nfr
I split this thread. While the big hormone debate has some relation to the topic, it's a whole nother discussion.
For the Hormone Debate:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16893.html
Please reply to this thread only on the title topic 'Do TS possess the brains of their target sex?'
if one is truly the gender they claim, hrt merely amplifies what is there. it doesnt create parts that arnt there to begin with.
i said no. i don't know why. call it 'pointless instinct'.
when talking to my doctor, i feel silly when he says 'you think your a woman, or you feel like a woman.
noob, i am one...