Patrick Frye, June 29 2014
If a baby is assigned a gender by a hospital, then LGBT activist Christin Milloy claims this is like play "Russian roulette" with the baby's life.
In a related report by The Inquisitr, a slut shaming study claims the name calling is really about class warfare. When Kirsten Dunst talked about gender roles she was pretty blunt, saying, "You need a man to be a man and woman to be a woman."
Milloy claims that when hospitals practice infant gender assignment it's really a practice that is "insidious" and it's supposedly done "without even asking for the parent's consent." While it may seem odd to portray determining a baby's sex in such terrifying terms, the LGBT activist believes defining a baby based upon basic biology is really playing "Russian roulette with your baby's life." She explains how this might be:
More: http://www.inquisitr.com/1326630/babies-given-a-gender-role-assignment-like-boy-or-girl-is-like-playing-russian-roulette-claims-lgbt-activist/
I need to say this goes WAY too far.
When you gender a baby based on genitals, you will get it right more than 99% of the time. The solution is not to stop gendering babies. The solution is to be sensitive to the possibility that you might have gotten it wrong and to listen carefully when a child of any age tells you they have been gendered improperly.
Agreed 100%, Suzi.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 30, 2014, 09:22:08 AM
When you gender a baby based on genitals, you will get it right more than 99% of the time.
Genitals and gender have nothing to do with each other, therefore it is scientifically incorrect to use genitals as a defining point for gender. The assignment of a gender IS the act of not having free will or rights to your own existence , how can you be free if you cant even be your self from birth.
We should just treat people as people, not pre assigned colours, blue or pink. You should get to know people through real time conversation not through labels and assumptions.
Its also inaccurate to pretend we have any idea how many people are natal males and females as the majority of people who dont fit gender stereotypes most likely die in the closet.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 30, 2014, 02:00:51 PM
Genitals and gender have nothing to do with each other, therefore it is scientifically incorrect to use genitals as a defining point for gender.
Do you have a better way of gendering an infant? Or are you saying, "let's start a vast campaign to prevent all gendering of infants"?
If it's the latter, I can't tell you all the ways it scares me. I'll try to list a few:
* We're treating every child like a trans child. Gender is important. Might not gendering an infant be just as bad as gendering one incorrectly? In short, even if this were possible, I'm not convinced it would be better.
* We are asking everyone to change something that is ingrained and traditional. When you do that, you had better be sure what comes of it would be better.
* MY BIGGEST CONCERN: If we are perceived to be asking outlandish things of our fellow humans, it will be harder to convince them to do sensible things.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 30, 2014, 02:00:51 PM
Its also inaccurate to pretend we have any idea how many people are natal males and females as the majority of people who dont fit gender stereotypes most likely die in the closet.
Um. Where does the conclusion come from that the majority of people who don't fit gender stereotypes die closeted? I've never seen that result published anywhere.
This is a subject that goes beyond trans, the scientific evidence shows that sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, therefore it is harmful to make assumptions. We should simply provide an environment that encourages people to be themselves, whatever that is. Why is there any need to make assumptions before your child has learnt to talk and walk and decide what things they do and dont like for themselves. Enforcing one of two stereotypes on a child when there is a whole spectrum of possibilities is the act of oppressing them. Everybody is unique, everyone has their own unique identity comprised of various levels of qualities. We as a society need to stop making assumptions about people, and instead get to know them through real time conversation. Trying to fit everyone into categories simply doesn't work as nature doesn't work that way.
QuoteUm. Where does the conclusion come from that the majority of people who don't fit gender stereotypes die closeted? I've never seen that result published anywhere.
Common sense, many countries its illegal to have a gender identity that doesnt conform to stereotypes, many places there is serious risk of death. Oppression is just that, people are oppressed, and you need to be very strong to stand up and be yourself, especially when it puts your safety at risk.
Looking into the history of how cultures saw gender through history and the events that lead to there only being two options today would give you an important perspective regarding this topic. The information is hard to come by but it is indeed there, i have made a few posts on the subject in other threads.
Also, in order to be an effective activist, its important to understand how change works, you dont get change by asking people to do things, you get change by triggering debate that captures the whole society, you make information available, you get people thinking, this collectively works together to shift the global culture. Through this process over time, global culture shifts create global changes that are both good and bad.
Like it or not, we have to challenge what society thinks, because we are something that society doesnt like, if we dont challenge what they think, we will never gain equality.
Regarding this subject, you dont have to agree with that opinion, however what is important is that healthy discussion and debate from all perspectives is cultivated. This is the act of both making information available, sharing views and perspectives, and collectively learning about a subject.
Gender is something that affects everyone alive, therefore since there is scientific evidence that the binary system is incorrect, there needs to be a global informed discussion to absorb this information and to healthily adjust to the conclusions reached.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 30, 2014, 03:43:28 PM
This is a subject that goes beyond trans, the scientific evidence shows that sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, therefore it is harmful to make assumptions.
Really. Correlate body sex with gender identity, and there will be a bit of correlation there, no?
Also, isn't the statement "sex and gender have nothing to do with each other" a bit invalidating for those people (like yours truly quite recently) who go in for Sex Reassignment Surgery so that our body sex matches our gender?
Quote from: Olivia P on June 30, 2014, 03:43:28 PM
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 30, 2014, 03:09:19 PM
Um. Where does the conclusion come from that the majority of people who don't fit gender stereotypes die closeted? I've never seen that result published anywhere.
Common sense
Don't you find this a little scary? We don't have direct evidence that these people exists other than our own common sense, and yet we're willing to play John Money by experimenting with raising a generation of babies without gender even though we can't be sure what effect that will have. We don't really know all those closeted people exist and they're certainly not complaining but we want to remake the whole way we raise children to help them?
Am I the only one bothered by that?
Quote from: Olivia P on June 30, 2014, 03:43:28 PM
Gender is something that affects everyone alive, therefore since there is scientific evidence that the binary system is incorrect...
Is there? Nearly every I know seems pretty happy with the binary system. Even a lot of trans people are happy with it once they transition. True, there are people (like me) who believe our expectations of the various genders are too restrictive, but there are WAY more feasible ways of addressing those issues.
Quote from: Olivia P on June 30, 2014, 03:43:28 PM
Regarding this subject, you dont have to agree with that opinion, however what is important is that healthy discussion and debate from all perspectives is cultivated.
Yes. I highly agree. I hope my responses are construed as "healthy discussion and debate". I do appreciate your finding and posting this article. It IS something that needs to be discussed, especially among our community.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 30, 2014, 04:15:55 PM
Don't you find this a little scary?
Theres no real way for science to accurately count people who are hiding, but we still need to factor them into the discussion
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 30, 2014, 04:15:55 PM
Is there? Nearly every I know seems pretty happy with the binary system. Even a lot of trans people are happy with it once they transition. True, there are people (like me) who believe our expectations of the various genders are too restrictive, but there are WAY more feasible ways of addressing those issues.
Here is a map to show you how widespread the idea that there is more than binary is:
Quote
On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. Terms such as transgender and gay are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).
Yet hundreds of distinct societies around the globe have their own long-established traditions for third, fourth, fifth, or more genders. Fred Martinez, for example, was not a boy who wanted to be a girl, but both a boy and a girl — an identity his Navajo culture recognized and revered as nádleehí. Most Western societies have no direct correlation for this Native "two-spirit" tradition, nor for the many other communities without strict either/or conceptions of sex, sexuality, and gender. Worldwide, the sheer variety of gender expression is almost limitless. Take a tour and learn how other cultures see gender diversity.
Explore the map >>
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html
For added information i would like to direct you to this section of the indian hijira's:
Quote
During the era of the British Raj, authorities attempted to eradicate hijras, whom they saw as "a breach of public decency." Also during British rule in India they were placed under the Criminal Tribes Act 1871 and labelled a "criminal tribe," hence subjected to compulsory registration, strict monitoring and stigmatized for a long time, after independence however they were decriminalized in 1952, though the stigma continues.
For something that is so widespread to be present on all continents, and something that is resurfacing now the colonial period is over, it is important to factor it into the discussion. There must be a reason why so many societies that had no link to each other all reached the same conclusion. And in extension why the same idea is resurfacing with non binary people. The fact that non binary people exist today proves that the binary idea of gender is incorrect, if binary was true non binary people wouldn't exist.
I think we have a lot to learn from rediscovering the history of these cultures, it could help us find out what to do next. Native Americans before Europeans arrived didn't even have a concept of gender, they recognized biological polymorphism.