This is a very hot issue right now, and I thought it might be interesting to start a conversation on the topic, and see what everyone here thinks!
Personally, I have mixed feelings on the subject. I'm absolutely in support of using blockers once someone in their early teens, and I don't have any doubts that they should absolutely be able to transition-I knew I was trans* when I was fourteen or so, and starting then would have made my life so much better. Where I start to hesitate is when I hear about children who are twelve, nine, six, even three, who are already transitioning.
I don't think there's any doubt at all that a child that age can know if they are male or female identified-I'm pretty sure we all knew SOMETHING then-but can they understand the implications of being transgender? That they'll probably need to undergo painful and expensive surgery to feel complete and fit in, and even then might not feel right with their bodies? The bullying and isolation they could face, just for being themselves? Even if a child understands who and what they are, I just can't imagine them understanding the challenges that they'll face. Besides, social transition is almost as permanent as surgery, and there's a huge difference between wearing the clothing one likes and actually taking on a new gender! I know for certain that if my parents have encouraged me to live as myself myself at that age, I wouldn't have survived a year. I'm certainly passionately not for or against anything, but I think it's worth asking if these kids can really understand at that age what they're getting into. Thoughts? No flame wars, please!
Thanks,
Sasha
I feel puberty blockers are important as they give the person a chance to think about it and make a decision before any puberty is experienced. And ideally the timing for the blockers should be before puberty begins, assuming that symptoms of being unhappy are identified soon enough.
Hmm, come to think of it... I don't really have an opinion ;3;
I do know that some kinda grow out of it, but of course some don't..
In retrospect, I would have given my left nut for puberty blockers. And the right one.
If gender dypshoria is present at puberty, it's not ever going to magically go away. If anything, it just gets progressively worse over time. I stuck it out for as long as I could, and it almost killed me. I realize now that I suffered needlessly for decades.
I think it's awesome that people are now able to identify gender dysphoria and do something about it before the physical damage is actually done.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 01, 2014, 12:57:41 AM
I don't think there's any doubt at all that a child that age can know if they are male or female identified-I'm pretty sure we all knew SOMETHING then-but can they understand the implications of being transgender?
That they'll probably need to undergo painful and expensive surgery to feel complete and fit in, and even then might not feel right with their bodies?
The bullying and isolation they could face, just for being themselves?
No flame wars, please!
Even though I didn't know what transgendersim was until I was 10, I felt the way that I did since age 4. The only difference is that by age 10, I finally had a name for what I was feeling and going through. By age 10, I was aware of GRS, hormones, etc. Sure, I didn't know all of the specifics such as the RLT, therapists, etc, but I was in the ballpark.
I was already being bullied, was an outcast and spent a LOT of time by myself, so transitioning wouldn't have changed any of that.
Flame wars?
*Squirts hot sauce at you*
I don't know enough about puberty blockers to comment on their use, but I would initially say they are better than administering HRT to a young teen. Some people know for sure, and some don't. I knew about trans women, didn't know trans men were even real until I was 16, and even then I hadn't had the luxury of self reflection to figure myself out. I don't think that any surgical steps should be taken until the child is an adult.
Quote from: Ayden on July 01, 2014, 01:40:46 AM
I don't think that any surgical steps should be taken until the child is an adult.
I could agree with that, but I think that hormone blockers would be a great idea. I wish that I had them back in the day.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on July 01, 2014, 01:46:57 AM
I could agree with that, but I think that hormone blockers would be a great idea. I wish that I had them back in the day.
Are there any thorough studies on long term use of hormone blockers? As I said, in theory I think it's excellent for young people who show unmistakable signs, but I would wonder how it would affect the bodies ability to regulate. HRT replaces and suppresses at the same time, hormone blockers just suppress from my understanding.
Ayden,
My understanding is that these drugs have no track record of complications thus so far, and are considered safe. I would give anything to have had them...
Also, you can't administer HRT to someone until about sixteen-their growth would be harmfully affected. Usually, they'll take blockers until they're sixteen, and then start full HRT, often with amazing results.
I am thrilled that the younger generation today (god, I sound so old!) have this option available to them, and I dearly wish it had been available when I was younger.
However, I think it's very dangerous to put specific age limits (such as 'early teens') on eligibility for these drugs. Dysphoria is a very personal, individual thing, and we all discover it at different ages and stages of development. But so too is puberty: different individuals enter puberty at different ages and progress at different rates, so I believe it's important to assess each potential trans* child on an individual basis and to offer puberty blockers, if appropriate, when that child actually needs them, not at a specific age.
Me? I've been dysphoric since I was 5, and I had the misfortune of undergoing a precocious puberty that started when I was 6. By the time I was 12 I was already fully matured in terms of my secondary sexual characteristics: I already had breasts, wide hips, periods... the whole package. 12 would've been way too late for me to start puberty blockers. If they'd been available, the best time for me to start puberty blockers would've been around age 7. And yes, I would absolutely advocate for puberty blockers being prescribed for children of that age under the right circumstances.
Watch this talk by an endocrinologist who prescribes puberty blockers to trans* kids, and think about how age limitations on puberty blockers would affect people like me.
TRIGGER WARNING: this is a wonderful talk, but it can trigger strong emotions in those of us who were forced to go through the wrong puberty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzbtSeVZeEE
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 01, 2014, 02:02:57 AM
Ayden,
My understanding is that these drugs have no track record of complications thus so far, and are considered safe. I would give anything to have had them...
Also, you can't administer HRT to someone until about sixteen-their growth would be harmfully affected. Usually, they'll take blockers until they're sixteen, and then start full HRT, often with amazing results.
Thanks for the info. I'm reading up on everything now. It's amazing what they can do for our youth nowadays, isn't it?
I can only speak from my own experience and, of course, that colours my views so I would wish that the broadest range of possibilities be open to children.
I knew my gender from earliest childhood, long before there was any element of sex involved. I had picked my female name by age 4 and would LOVED to have transitioned (socially) before school. In all the years up to puberty, I never wavered in my belief that I was/needed to be a girl and I should have been on blockers by age 10 because the first signs of an inappropriate puberty drove me crazy and drove me to more and more assertive and drastic measures including DIY hormones by 13 (whenever I could steal them).
The figure of 80% has been used for children who do not persist in their cross-gender desires but that means 20% who DO. It does not seem humane or compassionate to deny the 20% the chance to live a more normal life! The option SHOULD be there, regardless of age to live a full and complete puberty of one's choice AT THE SAME TIME that one's peers are experiencing puberty. I (personally) do not feel that delaying puberty is an ideal solution when a normal puberty is within the capability of medicine.
A big part of the problem is parent's and doctor's dismissive attitude toward children, the "I know better and you don't know" attitude that results in delays and treatment denied.
It is true (I suppose) that some children may not know and that NO child can possibly know for sure until they are given the chance to experience life as they desire it and they SHOULD be given that opportunity.
Any reasonable adult SHOULD be able to live with the consequences of their decisions - I tried that but it didn't work out - but the true regret comes from not having been allowed that decision in the first place!
I feel it is the prejudices and ignorance of adults that allows them to feel they are justified in interfering in children's lives. Children know a hellofa lot more than we give them credit for!
I knew I wanted to be a girl by the time I was 7 but knew something was wrong long before that, I thought I was gay but back in the 80's information on transpeople was almost non existant. It wasn't until early teens that I found out about ->-bleeped-<- & I instantly knew that this applied to me.
If I was a child nowdays then i'd likely not go through the stage of thinking I was gay due to ignorance, I feel that any child who feels that they are trans should be given the option of blockers, should they reach 16 (or 18 depending on location) & decide transitioning is not for them they can stop blockers at any time & go through a late puberty with no i'll effects.
That's the important point here, blockers do not equal transitioning they just prevent the damage of puberty giving the child/young adult come to terms with their condition before taking the step of HRT later in life.
I'm all for children being given blockers & the only negative feelings I have about it is jealousy. They're so damn fortunate to be born into a society that recognises the problem & has a medical solution that was never available to me.
I can't remember a time when I didn't know something was seriously off about me. It wasn't until puberty that I consciously thought, "I should have been born a girl," but for as long as I could remember, I didn't like being a boy. I liked things girls typically liked, wanted to have long hair, would have LOVED to wear a dress... but I didn't get to do any of those things. I was keenly aware just how unacceptable it was and I was pretty afraid of my father, so I never even spoke up about it. I just denied, denied, denied. I didn't feel that way. I could be happy being a boy. I had to be. There was no other option.
I was a VERY maladjusted kid. Maybe for some, not transitioning at a very early age would protect them; keep them safe. For me, I'm still shocked I made it through childhood NOT transitioning. Constantly forcing myself into a role I hated had a hugely negative impact on my development. It affected nearly everything. How I viewed everything. It kept me from forming friendships and made me a lonely outcast. That's what pretending to be a cis boy did, not what being a trans girl would have. So, yes, I'm 100% in support of parents allowing their children to transition at extremely early ages. I could have had a vastly different life -- a much better life -- if mine had.
I guess since we're all talking about personal experience here, I can go ahead and share mine. At the age of five, I was absolutely convinced that I was born as a girl, but that my parents wanted a boy and just gave me a quick switch. Obviously at the time, I didn't know that was not possible. As I progressed through child hood, I would do the normal 'cross gender' things: play with makeup, dresses and heels, etc. As I began to go through puberty, though, I guess I sort of repressed these feelings. I was gay by any conventional definition. That's not to say these feelings didn't exist, I still felt them from time to time, they just didn't dominate me. Last September (I was 19), I began seriously looking into myself again and last May (20 at that point), I came out as transgender.
Personally, I think it's great that things like this can exist. I think we need to continue pushing the boundaries of medical science, especially for all of our transmen brothers. However, I think a form of education needs to exist. Having developed this technology will do us no good if parents won't consent to their child being a part of it.
I would claim that it's not hard to tell the difference between a transgender kid and one who is experimenting. If the kid adopts an alternate gender presentation and the more time goes on, the more comfortable he/she is with it and the more he/she seems to fit in with his/her peers as that gender, the more likely it is that they are trans.
As for "knowing what they are getting into", I get what you're saying. Transition was tough at 52. I can imagine how it would be at 7 or 17. I've definitely seen kids who desperately want to live as the opposite gender but are terrified.
We (the adults in their lives) CAN and MUST make the way easier for them.
There's one other thing I wanted to add: I sincerely hope that, in the not-too-distant future, support groups & sites like this one will no longer be necessary. I hope that future trans* people will be identified and helped in childhood, and that those who come after us will not have to suffer as we have suffered. I hope the pain & torment we've experienced will eventually fade into a bad memory from a less enlightened time.
A transgender child, especially a trans girl, might be an even bigger target of bullying in their assigned gender.
Quote from: Ayden on July 01, 2014, 01:40:46 AM
I don't think that any surgical steps should be taken until the child is an adult.
I know many trans minors lack the maturity to make that decision, but what about the ones who can? Should they be forced to experience the formative years of their life with the wrong genitals? I recently had SRS and couldn't truly understand how psychologically damaging it was having the opposite genitals until afterwards.
No child should be forced to go through that.
Quote from: Ayden on July 01, 2014, 01:53:57 AM
Are there any thorough studies on longg term use of hormone blockers? As I said, in theory I think it's excellent for young people who show unmistakable signs, but I would wonder how it would affect the bodies ability to regulate. HRT replaces and suppresses at the same time, hormone blockers just suppress from my understanding.
I wouldn't care if there were any risks, I would still be asking my parents (especially my mom) if they would have went with this if I had that option. But I didn't even have the courage to come out as a kid, never mind asking them/her: "Hey, can I take this?" If they knew the absolute truth of the situation and were also able to find a competent therapist, my life would have been much more bearable. I would have never touched drugs or alcohol. I would taken much better care of myself physically, and I wouldn't have been sitting in my bedroom on many occasions thinking to myself: "Okay, is this the day I get out Dad's shotgun and end this?" These are not thoughts that you should be having at age 10 through 12. Had I been on something like hormone blockers, this wouldn't have been the case. I would have embraced the future, rather than dreading it. (Because there were many times when I thought that there wouldn't even be a future.)
My daughter has a friend who is 5 who is trans. They refer to themselves as a girl with boy parts. They still go by their birth name, but they prefer the they pronoun and dress in the feminine. Their parents are very supportive and think that they will likely transition fully before middle school. I think that as parents, it is our job to support the path to happiness when our children come upon it. I knew that I should have been a boy when I was 4, and if I had told my parents rather than keeping it a shameful secret for 20 years, I may have had a better childhood.
I used to think that you should be at least 18, but now I'm not so sure. I figured you can't possibly understand what's going to happen at that point. However, I see that's not necessarily true and if you can do it before puberty, its easier to get your desired appearance.
I saw a couple of news things on 20-20 and such about transkids and hormone blockers and it was really informative. I think if a child knows who they are and have lived as their correct gender and work with doctors, therapists and the like that they should be able to go on blockers when puberty rears itself. From there HRT when it is their time. Tacking an appropriate age on something isn't going to work. What works is figuring out each kids situation and making the best call for them because everyone is different.
I was born in the late seventies and grew up in the 80s not knowing a thing. Had I and my mom known about transgender a lot of things would have made sense and things would have been different. I could have grown up the way I wanted to and have blocked the changes to my body which would have been NICE. Instead I was miserable and struggling with a lot of social issues because I was uber masculine. I'm glad that kids now and days are inheriting a world where there is such a wealth of information and its easily accessible. It may save a lot of kids a lot of heartache and depression to be able to be who they are.
This is my view. I think kids *can* know these things at an early age...actually I know they can cuz I did..but parents can't interpret whether the feelings are genuine simply because 3 year olds can't articulate themselves well enough.
I say this. If a child demonstrates that they might be trans at an early age, keep the door open. Allow them to express themselves as they choose, talk to them about it, make sure they know you care and accept them. Then when they get to the age of 12 and understand things better, talk to them about puberty blockers. If that's something they want to pursue..at that point it's very unlikely that it's a phase. So I say get them on that and then full course HRT (if they still want it) at 16.
I know a few moms of trans kids and a couple kids. We have enough locally we actually have a playgroup. I think these kids definitely do know and that the blockers can be life savers. I don't know that they are in for a horrible life and so on. I think that since they are accepted by their parents and have lots of support they may have a fairly normal happy life. Sure they may have a surgery (but may be spared top surgery, either way). But many people have surgeries and live good lives. I know a 20 year old trans guy who transitioned early and is like "what's the big deal".
The blockers have been prescribed for another condition and have a good track record.
I agree there are fluid kids and kids who are just non-conforming. That's the point of blockers to buy time to figure this stuff out.
--Jay
QuoteI'm pretty sure we all knew SOMETHING then-but can they understand the implications of being transgender? That they'll probably need to undergo painful and expensive surgery to feel complete and fit in, and even then might not feel right with their bodies? The bullying and isolation they could face, just for being themselves? Even if a child understands who and what they are, I just can't imagine them understanding the challenges that they'll face.
If they don't transition young, aren't they still likely to be facing some of these issues? And are those issues true for all? It seems like you are painting the worst case scenario. And are you sure they are going to be facing bullying? Things are changing. Children of today have a much different attitude than in the past. And if you start younger, children are often more accepting. Especially if they have supportive parents and schools.
And why do they have to understand that all right away? I guess I'm making the assumption that if they don't transition as children they will as adults. That it's not really a choice. So if it's not much of a choice, why do they have to be loaded down by all these possibilities, when things are changing so rapidly?
Also, you say that social transition is almost as permanent as surgery. It may depend on where you live, but I think of all the kids who transform themselves wildly at some point in their growing years. Kids who enter high school as a completely different sort of person than they were before. When I think about my elementary school there were 2 girls who seemed sort of like me. I paid attention to them because of that similarity. When we entered junior high one of them became a girl. (heh!) She was hard to recognize because she was so different that the "tom boy" I'd known. After a bit, no one remembered her as anything different than who she was in junior high.
letting kids use blockers or cut or grow there hair and present as the other gender isn't a life sentence. it's an opportunity and if it doesn't work for them, it's not to late to live as their gender at birth. That's my take. I'll get off the soap box now. sheesh did I go one. :o
You also say that social transition is almost as permanent as surgeries.
Question - If HRT begins in the late teens after puberty blockers for 4+ years, will development be the same as though they'd started HRT at 12?
In other words, will bone structure and (for mtfs) breast development reach full potential?
Inanna,
You cannot start taking full HRT (E or T) at twelve-it will cause your body to mature too quickly, stunt your growth, and cause a host of other issues. I'm not an endocrinologist, but my understanding is that twelve is normally when they start giving blockers, and sixteen is when either E or T is added. After that, I suppose you could wait even longer if you were still taking blockers, though I don't see why anyone would. As for results-have you seen the pictures of what these kids look like? It's actually very difficult for me to look at them, because I see something I could have been, instead of the freakish creature my body forced me to become. Normally, the results these kids get are completely indistinguishable from their cis peers.
I don't agree with the idea that social transition is almost as permanent as physical transition. Maybe for adults it would be very hard. I went thru periods in my life where I was called a different name and went back. I believe that if children feel that their parents understand and accept them they can handle things more easily. I met a parent in Philly and his mom openly said that he could go back if he wanted but right now it doesn't seem to be going on and he is on blockers. There was an ease talking about his gender that I just don't think exists in typical families.
Most trans people have acceptance issues very early on, so perhaps being able to express their real gender will help that and not hurt it. Actually some of the trans kids I met were much MORE sociable and adept than their peers (as well as popular). I think that the blockers are really a life saving thing.
I don't know if being on blockers for longer periods shortens the actual puberty or just delays it.
--Jay
I fully support social transition for any child that wants it and who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a therapist experienced with trans people. I support beginning HRT at the earliest *medically* appropriate time if the child's gender identity doesn't waver. I support blockers if the child is unsure of transition and wants them. I would not wait for some artibitrary age for any of these things.
I think western society is *beginning* to seriously change with regard to trans acceptance. In 30 years I expect that trans acceptance will be where LGB acceptance is today -- which is a far cry from where it was 30 years ago! There will *always* be people who think that transgender isn't real or can be "cured", but then, there are still idiots that judge people by their race.
There are a lot of thoughtful responses in this thread. But most seem to think that trans kids will face the same societal discrimination that the poster did in the past. Perhaps I am being naive, but I think (and hope) it will be different.
Kim :-)
If someone asked me when I was 5/6 do you want to be a girl, I don't honestly know what I would have said. I was more interested in playing and hanging out with friends, then the state my body was in. Course I was still wishing nearly every night to wake up as a girl buuut...
Personally as long as blockers don't harm anyone I don't see why not to use them so they have time to think. It is a very personal and very deep choice to make. HRT should really only be available when your older due to the risk involved.
If I could go back in time i'd pick around high school or late middle school would be my ideal time to transition - since my dysphoria really started up then, however I didn't know what I know "now".
I have still yet to come out and I've "only really known" that I am transgender for about a year.
Its a tough topic, yet I still stand by not allowing kids to go on HRT - but fully support blockers as long as their is no harm.
If I was only born in the 90's-2000's blah hehe.
My opinion on this matter is that far too many people use transgender children as rhetorical devices to support their own viewpoint, whatever that might be.
Transphobes insist that swathes of children are being forced into transition solely for being gender non-conforming, and that it's tantamount to 'curing' homosexuality. They never stop to consider that doctors pretty much never make that diagnosis solely based on having gender-atypical hobbies (there has to actually be some level of dysphoria there too), and that not giving these children treatment is, in fact, endangering their lives.
I'm also slightly weary of other trans folks who point to the experiences of trans children and insist that they're universal i.e. trans people always know they're trans from a super young age, never mind that loads of people scarcely know what 'transgender' means until their teenage years.
If someone needs treatment, they damn well need it, regardless of their age.
Some folks are freaking out about that trans boy who's only 5 or 6. It was a big story recently and there's a thread somewhere around here about it. I don't get that at all. The kid is still many years from puberty. All they've done is let the kid be himself, e.g. get a short hair cut, wear boy's clothes, use male pronouns, etc. None of it is irreversible. And by the time he's close to puberty, he will have had plenty of time to mull this over with the help of therapists and such before considering blockers. There's just nothing to freak out about.
I think around puberty is a fair age to start, as long as they know the risk. Prior to then, they could of pretended they were the gender they identify with. I liked wearing my sister's clothes since I was like 5, but I've only known what a transsexual is since January.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/30/whittington-family-ryland-transgender-son_n_5414718.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063
Food for thought on the subject.
When the first thing you say is I am not a girl I am a boy... ;)
Quote from: Myarkstir on July 05, 2014, 08:48:41 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/30/whittington-family-ryland-transgender-son_n_5414718.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063
Food for thought on the subject.
When the first thing you say is I am not a girl I am a boy... ;)
Knowing the word doesn't change your thoughts, it only gives them structure and direction. I hasve known thast sdomething was wrong from the moment i reasluzed thast there was something i didn't like in between my legs. But at the age of 8 i saw a news report about a ftm on tv (thast was 41 years ago) and iv sdtill remember it like it was yesterday. It put a word to what i was feeling and that day my decision was made. It took me 38 years approx to complete it but i did. (Or will nov 24 lol).
My dad was very homophobe, so at the nice age of 8 i learned that if i told the truth i would loose my family. I carry that pain till this day. Everything i feared happened. Had my parents listened to the clues, my life would have been much happier.
Quote from: dalebert on July 04, 2014, 08:23:57 AM
Some folks are freaking out about that trans boy who's only 5 or 6. It was a big story recently and there's a thread somewhere around here about it. I don't get that at all. The kid is still many years from puberty. All they've done is let the kid be himself, e.g. get a short hair cut, wear boy's clothes, use male pronouns, etc. None of it is irreversible. And by the time he's close to puberty, he will have had plenty of time to mull this over with the help of therapists and such before considering blockers. There's just nothing to freak out about.
^^ this!!
Quote from: dalebert on July 04, 2014, 08:23:57 AM
Some folks are freaking out about that trans boy who's only 5 or 6. It was a big story recently and there's a thread somewhere around here about it. I don't get that at all. The kid is still many years from puberty. All they've done is let the kid be himself, e.g. get a short hair cut, wear boy's clothes, use male pronouns, etc. None of it is irreversible. And by the time he's close to puberty, he will have had plenty of time to mull this over with the help of therapists and such before considering blockers. There's just nothing to freak out about.
Yes, the viral video, which I am guessing actually had many more positives than negatives (I don't actually think the negatives would drive this-- though the haters still made their voices known). But most of the negative stuff didn't actually look like they watched the video. But was not in the video was a LOT of info on how he felt as I don't think this fits nicely in a video on youtube (or for an organization, where it first appeared). The other thing, the parents did NOT know this was going to go viral. A lot of people think this was a very public event. They spoke at a very small LGBT event in their hometown, where they were recognized-- perhaps for being active in their own community. I think they'd probably have been surprised.
The interesting thing is how little they actually did, and what a huge difference this is going to make in this kid's life. There was a young guy here (not 6!!) who came out at a very early age. His parents accepted him immediately, and he was like "I'm very happy don't know what all the problem is". He might have come on the list to find out about packers, top surgery, etc. I think these kids have the possibility of as normal a life as possible.
--Jay
I'm an early transitioner, it is much more preferable to stop the unwanted changes from happening in the first place than to have to go through expensive surgery when you're older. And surgery doesn't fix some things that already happen with puberty ((Wide hips in ftms, wide shoulders in mtfs, ect)).
What causes the controversy over trans* children is that people think that they are going to start on hormones at ages 6! That's not true, hormone blockers are a trans* child's best friend, because it stops puberty in it's tracks until they reach a suitable age, usually anywhere from 13-16 as these are the times a normal child's puberty begins to set in. Once they reach an age where the endo feels comfortable knowing it's not going to cause any damage, they'll start on hormones. Even if a child has already began puberty without hormone blockers, starting hrt at a younger age, can still prevent further unwanted changes from happening, and can cause proper bone growth for their preferred gender ((ie. growth spurt in ftms))
Also, blockers allow time for younger trans* children to make a decision, until then, let them live as the gender they want. A child usually starts forming a gender identity around ages 3-5. So it shouldn't be that far-fetched that there are kids this young that are trans. :)
Quote from: Xenguy on July 05, 2014, 03:48:32 PM
A child usually starts forming a gender identity around ages 3-5. So it shouldn't be that far-fetched that there are kids this young that are trans.
That's how it was for me. I remember my first memory was at age 3. It was my aunt asking about my upcoming birthday and how old I was going to be. I said six. :D That should have been my first clue that I would always suck at Math. My second memory was being 4 and by that point, I realized that something was wrong as far as my gender was concerned. It wasn't anything super specific at first. It was just a general "vibe" that things weren't right. As time went on, it became more and more obvious.
The current WPATH standards of care basically cite studies which said that of gender-nonconforming children admitted to therapy, only about 10%-25% had their transgender identity persist into adulthood. A higher percentage were likely to eventually identify as gay. Once they reached early puberty, though, 70 out of 70 who took puberty-blocking hormones had their transgender identity persist into adulthood. So once early adolescence is reached, and body aversion is there, it's not going away, you're trans, and any delay in therapy will just make it worse.
This same section does say, however, that those with the strongest gender-nonconforming feelings as children, those who play completely with the toys of the opposite sex, demand that they are a member of the opposite sex, and show early signs of body aversion, are more likely to have their trans identity persist.
So I can definitely approve of childhood gender transition if they do indeed show very strong signs that they really do mentally have a cross-sex gender identity, to the point that it causes them emotional distress. But until new scientific evidence proves otherwise, I don't think we can necessarily claim that all kids who think they might be the opposite sex are trans. Kids don't really understand gender. I know I didn't as a kid. I still thought that anyone who had long hair was a girl, and anyone who played with girls' toys was a girl and anyone who wore girls' clothes was a girl. I used to think that I could change into one if I did these things. So I don't think that a lot of kids can tell the difference. They can't quite mentally separate physical sex from gender expression yet.
Once these kids reach about 11-12 years old, though, and show clear signs of body aversion, which is a pretty definitive sign that their brains are hardwired to be the opposite sex, it needs to be spotted and treated as soon as humanely possible.
I had no idea I was trans as a kid. I didn't have that much gender-nonconforming behavior, at least nothing that would have gotten me noticed. But once my trans identity and body aversion started developing around age 12-13, it hasn't changed since. And it only got worse and worse as my body masculinized more and more.
(And yes, that video that someone posted about trans youth does make me VERY dysphoric. Especially the part with the twins, because you actually get to see how much of a difference blocking the male puberty makes. It's like "here's what you actually did go through, which now you can never undo, you hideous unlucky unfixably-masculine person, and here's the beautiful completely-female person that you could have been if you'd paid more attention to your jealousy of girls and hatred of your masculinizing body at that age." Urgh... :( )
Those of you who've been here a while know my story so I'll use the very short PG rated version of my childhood here.
As some of you know I was born intersexed, and From my very first waking memory I knew I was a girl. I never had any doubt. Being born on a reservation it's a different culture, and because I was different both in what I had vs. normal boys and how I felt, My biological Mom didn't push gender issues when it came to who and what items/toys I played with. I lost my Mom when I was six, and sadly she was the only family I had, so long story short I was adopted off the reservation a year and a half later when I was almost 8. A year afterward my adopted Mom married a macho domineering Catholic that plunged my life into an upside down hell I wouldn't wish on anyone. But even throughout my suffering I never wavered. Throughout it all, the bickering, the "you just need toughened up" comments and attempts at doing so by him I always knew I was a girl. And kept praying for some miracle rescue from what I was going through.
So yes, I do believe that some of us can know at an early age. and if we can be given blockers to save us from the damage that T and especially DHT will do to us going through the wrong puberty they should be made available especially to intersexed children such as I was.
I thank the OP for starting this thread for it's a topic I feel strongly about.
ally :icon_flower:
I think it important to be able to express yourself on who you are.
I know in certain areas its really dangerous and no matter where you are in the world its challenging to be trans, therefore it important to be able to reach out for help and suport.
Growing up as a trans kid or teen is not easy but growing up and being told to hide it is not much better either, I knew from a early age I was diffrent, and I got very depressed,
agressive, and general difficult to deal with. I did not trust my parrent, I ran away from home, and I tried to comitte suicide and did selfharm from when I was 12. I did not belive I would survive
and I still got some health issues related to this past where I knew I was trans but everyone keep ignoring it and there where no ways for propper threatment untill I was 16-18.
I also know a mother of a 6 year old transgirl. She was not suportive in the begging untill she realised that her child got extremly depressed and tried to cut of her penis.
It had not been easy for them, She had to remove them to another kindergarden and find a school which could accept her, She also had to deal with the health goverment and alot of
ignorant questions since the goverment here is not knowlegde about these things. But she rather take this fights and let her be happy, than having a child which is very depressive and do selfharm.
That is an amazing mother-I dream of a world in which every kid is so fortunate.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 15, 2014, 05:55:00 PM
That is an amazing mother-I dream of a world in which every kid is so fortunate.
+1, I too dream and long for such a world.
Allie :icon_flower:
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 05, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
The current WPATH standards of care basically cite studies which said that of gender-nonconforming children admitted to therapy, only about 10%-25% had their transgender identity persist into adulthood....
This same section does say, however, that those with the strongest gender-nonconforming feelings as children, those who play completely with the toys of the opposite sex, demand that they are a member of the opposite sex, and show early signs of body aversion, are more likely to have their trans identity persist.
t trans youth does make me VERY dysphoric. Especially the part with the twins, because you actually get to see how much of a difference blocking the male puberty makes. It's like "here's what you actually did go through, which now you can never undo, you hideous unlucky unfixably-masculine person, and here's the beautiful completely-female person that you could have been if you'd paid more attention to your jealousy of girls and hatred of your masculinizing body at that age." Urgh... :( )
I don't like the tone of the video either, but I do think (from what I've heard, I know someone who goes to him) that the doctor is a very conscientious caring professional who is really wanting to change the ideas of professionals and not necessarily trans people. After all, I do know many knock dead gorgeous trans women who never took blockers and many more who are at least average. I think we could safely say they have probably save lives.
I think the stats are not really applicable to the kids who are coming out at 6 and demanding to be called the right gender etc. Dr Zuck was actually a part of the WPATH standards and probably had a major input in this one. But I don't know if it is really based on much.
--Jay
^Nah, I'm not saying that the video was negative in tone, or did anything to attack later-transitioners verbally. It's just that obnoxious nagging internal voice telling me "this could have been you" that makes it torture me.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 17, 2014, 06:45:18 PM
^Nah, I'm not saying that the video was negative in tone, or did anything to attack later-transitioners verbally. It's just that obnoxious nagging internal voice telling me "this could have been you" that makes it torture me.
No Dr Spake did (IMO) out and out say that MTFs who didn't take blockers were "not normal". But I think his appeal is definitely to medical folks. He is out to convince them that his minority opinion (which is still controversial) is correct by saying that these kids will have better "clinical results". I can't argue with the idea that they no doubt will (and avoid certain types of surgeries and procedures-- top surgery, tracheal shaving, FFS, electrolysis). But on the trans activism level, I find it a bit offensive. Still realistically I would have been taller and not had to have top surgery.
--Jay
Jay,
You make a good point, but as an activist (albeit a much younger one) I feel like I have to disagree with you-frankly I think that because I missed the opportunity to start hormones earlier, I, at least within the confines of what is innately programed in our brains to read someone as "female" or "male", will never be normal. Gender itself may be fake and socially imposed, but personally my problem hasn't so much been with my gender as it has been with my sex: The physical traits of my body that are male, and should be female. There are certain things that will never change for me: I will always be tall, impossibly broad shoulders, long, dangly arms and hands that out me to every person I meet. From a biological standpoint, I will never be (or appear) "normal".
If I am ever going to have even a small chance at having a body I can feel comfortable and safe in, I will require at least sixty thousand dollars in surgery, electrolysis, and extensive vocal coaching. Even then, certain things that will never change about me mean that I can never be regarded as a "normal" member of society; this is fine in my personal corner of bohemia, and I don't care about fitting into someone's standards of normality-but there practical considerations. What about when I go in for job interviews? Or when I try to date? As nice as the thought of a world without gender is (and I dream of the day that world comes), it's never going to happen in my lifetime, and the prospect of living and dying as a highly visible part of what is still one of the most vulnerable minorities in the world today in a body that will always make me squirm is not an easy reality to face. As a trans woman who is seeing little to no response after two years of HRT, I can say that especially for MtFs, starting young is the only way to avoid constant pain, and the inability to find any sense of belonging in an oppressive society.
--Sasha
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 18, 2014, 07:51:56 PM
Jay,
You make a good point, but as an activist (albeit a much younger one) I feel like I have to disagree with you-frankly I think that because I missed the opportunity to start hormones earlier, I, at least within the confines of what is innately programed in our brains to read someone as "female" or "male", will never be normal. Gender itself may be fake and socially imposed, but personally my problem hasn't so much been with my gender as it has been with my sex: The physical traits of my body that are male, and should be female. There are certain things that will never change for me: I will always be tall, impossibly broad shoulders, long, dangly arms and hands that out me to every person I meet. From a biological standpoint, I will never be (or appear) "normal".
If I am ever going to have even a small chance at having a body I can feel comfortable and safe in, I will require at least sixty thousand dollars in surgery, electrolysis, and extensive vocal coaching. Even then, certain things that will never change about me mean that I can never be regarded as a "normal" member of society; this is fine in my personal corner of bohemia, and I don't care about fitting into someone's standards of normality-but there practical considerations. What about when I go in for job interviews? Or when I try to date? As nice as the thought of a world without gender is (and I dream of the day that world comes), it's never going to happen in my lifetime, and the prospect of living and dying as a highly visible part of what is still one of the most vulnerable minorities in the world today in a body that will always make me squirm is not an easy reality to face. As a trans woman who is seeing little to no response after two years of HRT, I can say that especially for MtFs, starting young is the only way to avoid constant pain, and the inability to find any sense of belonging in an oppressive society.
--Sasha
We might not always have seen eye to eye Sasha, but this post is beautiful and touching and made me feel not so alone, as I feel much the same way, if not exactly the same way. I don't really care about gender, but my body is a different story. And I try to stay positive, but the practical considerations start to mount. You need money. I had to apply for a job as a male, and it's going to hurt, but I need a job, and I already have so many strikes that being trans isn't going to win me points.
But, in any event, thanks for this post. Really. Even if only for a night, it made me feel not so alone. Thanks so much.
PS: A book I think you might enjoy if you havent read it is Half Life by Shelley jackson, you can read some parts on Google Books. I think after reading your posts and thoughts, you'll really enjoy it...
Joanna,
I'm so glad this struck a chord with you! And don't worry about not having seen eye to eye in one discussion-this forum is just that, a forum. It's a place for people to have discussions, disagree with one another, and still provide support and advice at the end of the day, isn't it? I know exactly what you're going through, that's for sure. It sucks. Life for us really sucks right now-and unless Obama is willing to issue an executive order requiring my insurance to provide, you know, critical health care, or my parents suddenly stop hating me, my life is going to suck for a while longer.
Also, Half Life is actually the next book on my reading list, believe it or not!!! I'm not sure if you'd like them, they both made me feel dysphoric as hell, but two books if you don't want to feel alone are: A Safe Girl To Love, by Casey Plett-it's a number of essays about trans women by a trans woman, and Nevada by Imogen Binnie; it's the scuzzy queer road novel I've always dreamed about. Both of made me feel a lot less alone.
Keep your chin up-it's the most flatting angle if the camera is to your side! Thing will pick up some day, because they simply must.
My story is a bit different; young transitioner here, who did some medical stuff most of her teen years, and I actually have a handful of friends who I meet up with to present with, talk with, etc. Basically, what brings is together is that we all:
A) Transitioned quite young
B) Share our stories in the media
C) As a consequence of B, have supportive parents, to say the least.
This means folks like Jazz, Nicole (of the Maine school bathroom stories, and is actually the twin girl actually mentioned in Dr. Spack's video), etc. I'm especially close with Jazz and her mother Jeanette, as I did a presentation with them last month, in addition to Chris and Mary, who were on Katie Couric's show a few years back, oddly enough with my transyouth specialized doctor (Dr. Michelle Forcier). We're just normal kids at heart, at our cores; we just talk about transition and surgeries a bit.
Basically, my thoughts are that the system is broken, for the most part; I can tell you on good authority; Jazz herself, that she's on estrogen now, has been for like 3/4 months. We should all be able to go through puberty when our peers do. 16 is rather crazy, especially for an MTF like me, because at that point, all the other girls will be wrapping up their pubertal development, where as I'd be just starting, even with blockers/Lupron. This is not the lone issue faced by youth, nor is bathrooms, though that's very relevant, but medical care.
This is about being able to find the right doctors and therapists for the child. I was DISTRAUGHT that I didn't have a female body growing up, ever since I can remember, at age 3, when I tried to snap that ugly male bit off, and telling my mother I didn't want it anymore. Many of my therapists were uneducated about transitioning, expectedly so, but refused to do the research/information I gave them. As a result, as a youth, I had nearly four years of therapy, as a teen, for no reason, before I got hormones. It feels like a worse version of the NHS accounts, given some of the nutters I saw over the years. Those were vital years to me, that I lost because of, quite frankly, stupidity on the part of the therapists. It's one thing to not know, it's another to ignore the information I was giving them on a platter entirely. Futhermore, doctors who see transitioning youth need better visibility on the whole. We live in 2014. We have the internet, but there's STILL not much out there. There's Dr. Michelle Forcier (my doc), Dr. Norman Spack, and I believe Dr. Johanna Olson. That covers Providence, Boston, and Los Angeles; the first two in that bunch get folks from all over New England. That's not even CLOSE to most of the country; what about for everyone else? It's necessary to get swift, timely treatment. Sure would have helped me a lot if I knew there was a doctor like this just 20-30 minutes from home, but I didn't, because it's not out there.
As my mother, my biggest ally, friend, and co-presenter once said, about parental love of transyouth, "Just keep the love flowing, your child is wonderful, just the way they are." Without her support, my life, my advocacy, making a difference in others' lives, wouldn't be possible. I wish everyone here could know how awesome she is about this. We make a heck of a team, a mother-daughter bond, united by love, care, and compassion, to make a difference; to make a better tomorrow, today. This is what every child who transition needs, whether they go the media route as I have, or not. Just follow the child's lead, love who they are; they are only a child, in a difficult world. For the people that don't get it? Well, I go back to my mother: "It's not a disorder; the problem is people's prejudice."
After all, think about what all of us are doing, with how close this is hitting home in magazines and whatnot these days with transitioning youth? We are everywhere, basically every form of media, and then some; "We are at the forefront of change. We are shaping history. That's exciting!" Even my mother realizes this, and she's excited as I am to make this difference, for kids everywhere, to just be; be who they truly are.
On that note, there's a new reality show coming out for transyouth, currently in casting roles; just submitted a video to them today. I've applied to be on it-they're looking for basically folks with humor, big personalities, supporting families, etc. Slowly but surely my name is getting out there in a pretty big way, but this isn't about me, this is about making a difference so that everyone can be themselves, without feeling bad, or worrying about others. Everyone can have their day, and rise as a beautiful flower, as I have, and not have to worry about just wilting away in the rain, with no warmth of the sun.
Quote from: GorJess on July 18, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
As my mother, my biggest ally, friend, and co-presenter once said, about parental love of transyouth, "Just keep the love flowing, your child is wonderful, just the way they are." Without her support, my life, my advocacy, making a difference in others' lives, wouldn't be possible. I wish everyone here could know how awesome she is about this. We make a heck of a team, a mother-daughter bond, united by love, care, and compassion, to make a difference; to make a better tomorrow, today. This is what every child who transition needs, whether they go the media route as I have, or not. Just follow the child's lead, love who they are; they are only a child, in a difficult world. For the people that don't get it? Well, I go back to my mother: "It's not a disorder; the problem is people's prejudice."
After all, think about what all of us are doing, with how close this is hitting home in magazines and whatnot these days with transitioning youth? We are everywhere, basically every form of media, and then some; "We are at the forefront of change. We are shaping history. That's exciting!" Even my mother realizes this, and she's excited as I am to make this difference, for kids everywhere, to just be; be who they truly are.
On that note, there's a new reality show coming out for transyouth, currently in casting roles; just submitted a video to them today. I've applied to be on it-they're looking for basically folks with humor, big personalities, supporting families, etc. Slowly but surely my name is getting out there in a pretty big way, but this isn't about me, this is about making a difference so that everyone can be themselves, without feeling bad, or worrying about others. Everyone can have their day, and rise as a beautiful flower, as I have, and not have to worry about just wilting away in the rain, with no warmth of the sun.
I just want to say that I am so proud of you and your peers and the work that your doing to help other transyouths. Oh how I so much wish that people like you were around when I was growing up knowing my body was wrong. I won't get into the hell I went through here. Reading your post made me cry tears of joy knowing there's a chance other kids won't have to live the horrors I did, and lose the best years of their lives to misery. Your Mom must be one special lady. Thank you, for being who you are.
Allie :icon_flower:
I WISH I was doing what you're doing...these days I guess nineteen is just too old to make a difference :)
It's not at all! Trust me, I'm 22, though look young for my age; started HRT at a young 20, thankfully original puberty didn't touch me much at all, started therapy stuff mid-teens (those were the four years).
My story goes with the youth narrative simply because it was my story of when I actually got cracking on matters, what most of my life has been so far, and saw how, as a youth, there's injustice, and inequality in the system for youth and teens. Thus, I can relate to it much more than the adult experience. Starting treatment, telling doctors, etc. before age of majority (18, here in the States) vs. after it, I find to be a different story, in what I've been told and lived. Basically, yeah, I get why it's enviable, sometimes triggering, for some to hear my story, in various respects, but it's not close to all pink and roses on the transition front; that's the untold story which I'm trying to bring to light.
Oh yes, and thank you, Allyda; your message assures me that making my story public was the right decision. I wish I could have been around for folks like you, as well, but at least, there's the future we can both conquer, right? We can make the horrors into hopes; fears into dreams. Yeah, my mother is special; I wish you all could meet her- you go to Philly Trans-Health; you'll meet both of us. Let me reverberate that last sentence to you as well; thank YOU for being who you are. :)
Really? I'm always inspired by how well our community ages...
And that actually sounds a whole lot like my story (well, except for the bit about puberty not touching me, which is probably why you're in the public eye and I'm stuck behind a screen, even if I'd love to be out in the open). Personally, I'm still incredibly bitter about how restrictive the system is. A very huge piece of the puzzle is that the parents need to sign on for a minor to access treatment, even if they do have the resources, which is something that I very seriously doubt will ever change, since there are very few precedents even with more understandable conditions. I was ready to walk into a doctor's office at sixteen and ask for hormones...the thought of how much better my life could have been makes me sick sometimes.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 19, 2014, 12:07:53 AM
Really? I'm always inspired by how well our community ages...
And that actually sounds a whole lot like my story (well, except for the bit about puberty not touching me, which is probably why you're in the public eye and I'm stuck behind a screen, even if I'd love to be out in the open). Personally, I'm still incredibly bitter about how restrictive the system is. A very huge piece of the puzzle is that the parents need to sign on for a minor to access treatment, even if they do have the resources, which is something that I very seriously doubt will ever change, since there are very few precedents even with more understandable conditions. I was ready to walk into a doctor's office at sixteen and ask for hormones...the thought of how much better my life could have been makes me sick sometimes.
I know exactly how you feel.
Allie :icon_flower:
Parents and medical practitioners definitely need the most education as they are the first avenue of treatment.
I went through the whole thing in 1958 to 1976, ages 8 to 17. I tried to get hormones at 13 (1962) but with a mother who was dead-set against anything and a doctor who didn't know squat, I ended up begging, borrowing,, or stealing hormones whenever I could. At 15 (1964) a shrink told my parents I was delusional and offered/threatened to put me in an institution and have me treated with testosterone to "make a man of me". (Testosterone was offered freely but not estrogen - go figger!) I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin as transsexual at the age of 16 but even with his book in hand, most doctors refused to read it and refused to help. Thankfully I lived in a densely populated part of the country and was able to find one doctor to start me on HRT at 17 - only ONE out of all the medical professionals in a dozen cities within reach! Even then SRS was impossible until 1974 when Dr. Biber came on the scene - nobody else would even consider it.
That was SUCH a struggle! Constantly on the search for some kind of support, for any kind of helpful treatment, and with no adult backing. It is bloody amazing I survived - most didn't back then.
It angers me when I hear the phrase "It is just a phase." Well maybe it is for 80% of the kids but there are others who KNOW and, damnit, they need help and support! There needs to be the option for them to go through a normal puberty at the same time as their peers, not delay until some arbitrary age! I think that, in general, the 20% that need help have consistently demonstrated their discomfort from very early childhood so why hold them back?
JMHO
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 18, 2014, 09:00:05 PM
We might not always have seen eye to eye Sasha, but this post is beautiful and touching and made me feel not so alone, as I feel much the same way, if not exactly the same way. I don't really care about gender, but my body is a different story. And I try to stay positive, but the practical considerations start to mount. You need money. I had to apply for a job as a male, and it's going to hurt, but I need a job, and I already have so many strikes that being trans isn't going to win me points.
But, in any event, thanks for this post. Really. Even if only for a night, it made me feel not so alone. Thanks so much.
I feel that some MTFs have problems that we FTMs can't really understand. T is potent stuff (well all hormones are but particularly so). I am read pretty much 98% as male, though I am a short little dude :) and very slight build.
I feel that as an activist, the point is that trans people *are* NORMAL people. But actually being read as how you want to be read-- well it can be an issue depending on your genetics, I suppose. I think it's society which is sick, but maybe that's my view of it.
I do think these kids have a huge jump on things, and will obviously not need a lot of procedures and so on. (And I did say that in my post). I also think that acceptance by families like that is just huge, they will not have the suicide rates and so on that other trans people have and many other kinds of issues. But I don't think even with the no. of kids coming out that it will mean there won't be other trans people who will still come out later in life, that's still going to happen.
--Jay
Quote from: Northern Jane on July 19, 2014, 05:22:42 AM
It angers me when I hear the phrase "It is just a phase." Well maybe it is for 80% of the kids but there are others who KNOW and, damnit, they need help and support! There needs to be the option for them to go through a normal puberty at the same time as their peers, not delay until some arbitrary age! I think that, in general, the 20% that need help have consistently demonstrated their discomfort from very early childhood so why hold them back?
JMHO
Uh, yea, this! ^^^______^^^ is the best reply I've heard yet! And I agree 100%! I knew, and couldn't get help. All I wanted was help. Not ridicule, not toughened up, not doubts, not arguments. Only help. .................... Gotta stop there for here comes the river........
Allie :icon_cry2:
My opinion on trans children is that... I'm really jealous of them? I started transition at 16, which is certainly early, but I would've given nearly anything to be this happy earlier on. I really mourn the childhood I could've had as the correct gender- I missed out on so many formative years that I could've spent being really really happy instead of confused, depressed, and suicidal. I'm really happy for trans children, and also really really REALLY jealous of them.
I think it's great that today many more parents are open minded about the differences trans kids feel and allow them to socially transition early. Allowing blockers before puberty and HRT when age appropriate and after having lived most of their life RLE, SRS when they are ready. I knew I was different growing up in the 60's, but at that time Christine Jorgenson was an oddity and homosexuality was still a mental disorder. One didn't tell your parents that you were really the opposite gender. You just went to sleep praying to God you would wake up in the right body and gender the next day.
I believe many suicides will be prevented.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 01, 2014, 12:57:41 AM
This is a very hot issue right now, and I thought it might be interesting to start a conversation on the topic, and see what everyone here thinks!
Personally, I have mixed feelings on the subject. I'm absolutely in support of using blockers once someone in their early teens, and I don't have any doubts that they should absolutely be able to transition-I knew I was trans* when I was fourteen or so, and starting then would have made my life so much better. Where I start to hesitate is when I hear about children who are twelve, nine, six, even three, who are already transitioning.
I don't think there's any doubt at all that a child that age can know if they are male or female identified-I'm pretty sure we all knew SOMETHING then-but can they understand the implications of being transgender? That they'll probably need to undergo painful and expensive surgery to feel complete and fit in, and even then might not feel right with their bodies? The bullying and isolation they could face, just for being themselves? Even if a child understands who and what they are, I just can't imagine them understanding the challenges that they'll face. Besides, social transition is almost as permanent as surgery, and there's a huge difference between wearing the clothing one likes and actually taking on a new gender! I know for certain that if my parents have encouraged me to live as myself myself at that age, I wouldn't have survived a year. I'm certainly passionately not for or against anything, but I think it's worth asking if these kids can really understand at that age what they're getting into. Thoughts? No flame wars, please!
Its Opposite day!Personally I have mixed feelings on the subject of cisgender children. I'm absolutely in support of not using blockers for someone in their early teens, and I don't have any doubts that they should absolutely be able to not transition-I knew I was cis when I was fourteen or so, and starting then would have made my life so much better. Where I start to hesitate is when I hear about children who are twelve, nine, six, even three, who aren't even transitioning.
I don't think there's any doubt at all that a child that age can know if they are male or female identified-I'm pretty sure we all knew SOMETHING then-but can they understand the implications of being cisgender? That they won't even have the opportunity to get surgery to feel complete and fit in, and then might not feel right with their bodies? The bullying and isolation they could face, just for being themselves? Even if a child understands who and what they are, I just can't imagine them understanding the challenges that they'll face. Besides, failing to transition early is almost as permanent as surgery, and there's a huge difference between wearing the clothing one likes and actually staying in ones gender! I know for certain that if my parents hadn't encouraged me to live as myself myself at that age, I wouldn't have survived a year. I'm certainly passionately not for or against anything, but I think it's worth asking if these kids can really understand at that age what they're getting into. Thoughts? No flame wars, please!
Quote from: solexander on July 28, 2014, 01:10:52 PM
My opinion on trans children is that... I'm really jealous of them? I started transition at 16, which is certainly early, but I would've given nearly anything to be this happy earlier on. I really mourn the childhood I could've had as the correct gender- I missed out on so many formative years that I could've spent being really really happy instead of confused, depressed, and suicidal. I'm really happy for trans children, and also really really REALLY jealous of them.
I feel the same way! I want a girlhood. You can have the stupid baseball games I was forced to play or the ribbing to toughen me up.
Quote from: LeftistLeslie on July 28, 2014, 03:29:23 PM
I feel the same way! I want a girlhood. You can have the stupid baseball games I was forced to play or the ribbing to toughen me up.
So eloquently well said!^^___^^. Especially the ribbing and insults to "toughen me up." part!
Allie :icon_flower:
Meh...I'm never going to have the girlhood that I wanted, so...screw it. I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it. It is what it is and wasn't what it wasn't.
There are a lot of things I would change about my childhood, but that's a totally different subject...
I feel like trans kids should be allowed to take blockers, and even to begin HRT as teens (at a puberty-appropriate age). Maybe getting a recommendation for HRT should be a more rigorous process for teens than adults, but not impossible.
Kids who go through puberty with HRT and then later experience a shift in their gender identity... well, they'll be kind of like those of us who found our identities/began transition later in life. It will make it harder to transition "back" if that becomes a necessity... but it seems like that would very much be a statistical anomaly, and even in rare cases where that happens it would be possible! This community can attest to the fact that it is possible to transition later in life, so I do not see a harm in transitioning (with HRT, but not yet surgery) at or around the time of natural puberty.
All of this is spot on. I would have killed for the chance to transition earlier. I knew I had to transition a few months into my fifteenth year, and I had to wait three more simply because of the way we structure this system. It's appalling. However, I will say that I do wonder if it's right to encourage a child as young as three or five to transition-there are plenty of gender-nonconforming children out there, and not all of them will need to transition. I fully support letting them wear what they'd like to wear and so on, but changing names, committing to live as another gender at such a young age? I don't know if I can get behind that. Kids don't understand how unkind our culture is to transgender people, and while in a perfect world that wouldn't matter, I know that personally, if I had come out as trans* while I was still in school, I would have been killed-literally. And also, social transition is in no way easily reversible-the ideal solution in my mind is not to impose gender on children at all. Let them play with the toys they want to play with, act the way they want to act and dress the way they want to dress. For many, everything else is just a symptom.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 30, 2014, 11:29:25 PM
the ideal solution in my mind is not to impose gender on children at all. Let them play with the toys they want to play with, act the way they want to act and dress the way they want to dress. For many, everything else is just a symptom.
During my early years on the reservation I'm from until I lost her, my biological Mom did just this with me ^^___^^. I identified as a girl and adamantly knew I was a girl. But that's beside the point. My Mom just wanted a happy child, and didn't push gender issues. I played with what and who I wanted to play with. It is in fact like this on most reservations and Native American communities that govern themselves when it comes to transgender/gender non conforming children.
Had I not lost my Mom when I was six, or even if I had family left on the rez and was able to grow up there I'm quite confident I would have transitioned at puberty, and avoided years of misery and despair.
Allie :icon_flower:
I have been a transgender child aswell. This was the best thing I could have done because of that choice I didnt develope the very masculine parts of my body. I have not taken T blockers before I was 16 so that means that I have also received my HRT already when I was underage (everything started at the age of 16). This is the legal point in my country where it is allowed to start. I wish I would EVEN have done it earlier because I always knew crystal clear that I am transsexual even at the age of 7 . So my opinion simply is, if the child is very sure about it, support it and let it go further to prevent very high damage. Because as older you get as less effective the HRT changes are in my opinion to overwrite the already existing stuff your body has developed. I regret no choice according to my transsexuality and I would have even went for the sexual reassignment surgery when I was underage (but thats not possible here). So thats simply my opinion about it, and I guess my results show off.
I'm with you on the part of the transitioning at a very young age. However, I don't agree with social transition being permanent except in cases where the family lives in a small town. If you live in a metropolitan city, there are probably multiple grammar schools around that the child could attend. So, say a child born female transitions socially to male, goes by male pronouns and name. Then, as they get older (about 6th grade), they realize that they're not wanting to be a boy anymore. Instead of dealing with the trauma of having to have kids go "But you went by this name" blah, blah, blah, they can transition to a new school (or even be homeschooled) to allow them to live out their new found identity. Please realize with this situation, I'm talking about the child has been in therapy, the parents have communicated well with them, etc. Not one of those "today I'm a boy, tomorrow I'm not" things. We all change as the years go by and to say that one cannot socially transition because they may not necessarily want to be this way later, is wrong in my opinion.
Now, in terms of a child taking hormone blockers to delay their puberty, that's where my opinion differs. While I haven't heard of any adverse affects of this, I'd have to make sure my child was serious about wanting to be seen as the opposite sex before I did this. The only reason is because of the fact that it's been shown that many LGB members may experience gender dysphoria as they find their sexuality so we don't want to dump the hormone blockers on every child that displays dysphoria. Again, if the parents know their child well enough to see that this will help them, then by all means do it. But I'd hate to see the child in a situations where their puberty is delayed, then they get upset at feeling as though they look so young...Of course, this is just stuff that comes to my head when I think of children transitioning. I could kind of take either side on this, but doing permanent changes to a young child, is, in my opinion, wrong.
Edit: Since we're adding experience...I actually felt I should've been born male when I began puberty. however, I felt little actual dysphoria until later on. I wasn't depressed when I got my period (quite the contrary because I thought I was "mature". Lol) or when I got breast. It wasn't until I was about to start high school that I realized I coudln't take the torture of being seen as female anymore but adult me wonders if that was because I was starting to become attracted to females. all in all, I actually must've been preaching that I hated being a girl more than I can remember because I remember my mom telling me when I was about 9 that she was scared I was transgender after I expressed awe in a show about transgender youth (lol). I personally had no use for blockers because I didn't quite understand anything at the time.
I am a success story of an underage kid stopping puberty. My dad supported me in taking hormone at about thirteen. At sixteen he supported me in getting by birth certificate changed. I am now twenty two still have my dad's support, he is flying with me to SRS in February. He also payed thousands of dollars for my hair removal at fourteen. I support trans kids transitioning as early as possible, why make them grow into their wrong body? Before stopping puberty I was on drugs and suicidal.